00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number two hundred and seventy eight, and today we are catching up on all the latest going on with public lands in North America with land TONI of back Country Hunters and Anglers. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X, and today on the show, I'm joined by land Tawny, the CEO of back Country Hunters and Anglers, and my goal today's episode was to get everyone and update on where's things stand with public lands right now. Now. If you've been following this podcast or myself for a great deal of other folks in the hunting and fishing community over the past few years, you are likely very well aware. But there's been a lot going on with public lands. There's been a lot of controversy, a lot of worry about the future of these places. Uh, some of you probably remember. Let's go back to two thousand sixteen, for example, with the takeover of the Mail Hour Refuge and armed takeover in which a bunch of folks took over this piece of public land and started making a bunch of demands, including that they wanted public lands given to states or private owners. You might have heard about this larger issue that this was a part of, called the land transfer movement, which was being pushed by a certain group of politicians and lobbyists trying to get all of our federal public lands, national forests and BLM ground and wilderness areas and things like this. They wanted that given away or transferred away or sold off. You might have heard about this big debate over national monuments UM and what led to eventually to national minings being significantly slashed UM. You might remember Representative Jason Shavitz proposing a bill back in Gosh I think it was early two thousand seventeen. He proposed this a bill to sell more than three million acres of land that you and me could previously hunt or fish or camp or hike on. And then this huge pushback that we as a hunting and fishing an outdoor community kind of kind of put back on it. All. This has been going on over the past few years. We've talked about it quite a bit on the podcast I've talked about a whole lot on my social media platforms, and it's it's an issue that has been um of great interest to me personally because of you know, how special public lands have been to me and my family, into to so many other people we know, but also because of because of the really positive example that I think that this battle of sorts has shown, um as far as how we as a community can stand up. UM. I mean, I just think it was it was incredible to see the number of people in the hunting and isshing world get informed and then engage in this issue to make sure that we have wild in public places left for all of us to enjoy across the whole country. And I mean, I get really, I get really pumped about this. But this this idea of public land, this land that's open to all of us, I mean, I just how can you not get fired up about that? You know, land access is getting harder every year, and you know, I'm talking private land access for hunting in particular, which is probably most relevant to you and me maybe as deer hunters, um. And because of that, more and more hunters are turning to public land, trying it out and realizing that, Hey, there are some pretty awesome opportunities. I mean, I, for example, I've been doing this now for a number of years, and this year I'm planning either two or three out of state hunts and it's all going to be on public land. And I guarantee it's all gonna be a whole lot of fun. And you guys are gonna hear all about it. There are so many great things that we can do on public land. Not to mention, not to mention, these are places that you just don't have to just hunt, but you can go hike, you can fish, you can camp, you can kayak, you can forage, you can climb, you can just walk around and explore. I mean, this public idea, this this democratization of food and resources and sceniory space solitude. I just don't think there's anything more American. And the fact that over the last hundred years plus a hundred plus years, really we've been able to develop this system of places that are protected for for us to use now but also for future generations. And then the fact that's still today hundreds of years after Theater, or not hundreds, but hundred and twenty years or so after Theodore Roosevelt and these folks that stood up originally the fact that still now here in two thousand nineteen, there are a bunch of guys and gals that are still rallying to the defense of that idea that is that is badass and it gets me very excited and it makes me very proud. And that's why I'm excited about this episode and why I wanted Land to join me, to help me recap what's been going on over these past couple of eventful years. Where does things stand right now, and what does the future of public lands look like? And then finally, how can we all be involved in it and make sure it's a positive one. That is what we're going to talk about in Land Tawny. He likes to say that the public land revolution is alive, and I one percent agree with that, and I'm very proud that so many members of this community, this Wired to Hunt family, are part of that. So with all that said, I think we should just dive into our conversation with Land Tawny. Alright with me back on the show, is Land Tawny. Welcome back, Land, Okay, it's so good to be back. Yeah. I always appreciate taking the time to do uh, to do this, and and in particular this week because right now, as this podcast is going live, the two thousand nineteen Back Country Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous will be kicking off in Boise, Idaho, And uh, I'm sure right now as we're talking, which is a week before that, you are crazy, crazy busy. So so thanks for carving out the time and having this conversation. It's organized chaos over here, but we're getting it done and happy to get on the phone with your part. I imagine it's got to be pretty wild. So so this is what I what I'm wondering about right off the right off the gate go because as I said, this is gonna be going live on Thursday, which is I think the first day of the Rendezvous, and in a day or two from that point, you will be standing on the big stage, probably for Storytelling Night, addressing a crowd of likely thousands of people, telling them about the state of b h A and the state of public lands across the country. And I'm just kind of wondering, what is that big take home message or that big rallying cry gonna be for everyone that week during the event. What's your message. You know, I think the first part of that, it's just the amazing growth that we continue to enjoy over here at dh a UM. You know, we'll congratulate everybody in that room. You know, we had a goal of getting to thirty thousand members last year back in November of last year. We're at twenty five, and we really leaned on our chapter leaders as well as members to kind of get out spread the word and lo and behold, we met our membership goal of thirty thousand. Today we're sitting at thirty six thousand. So that's super exciting the growth at that point. You know, I don't want to I'm knocking on wood right now, but we've got seven chapters that will be new chapters that will be established. So we'll be welcoming in uh, Kansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Indiana, West Virginia, West Virginia because me New Jersey UM Tennessee is breaking away from the Southeast chapter, and then Yukon up in Canada, and so that will bring us to forty five state based chapters here in the lower forty eight and then three be up in Canada, and so you know, we're getting close to total coverage and that's super exciting. So like the gross piece, but I think like the big one that I'll be talking about, Mark is really reveling in this wind that we just had on this public lands package. And you know, this was a bill that contained the land of Water Conservation Fund, also contained a bunch of other public land pieces and you know that vote that happened there it was in the Senate and then three sixty three sixty two in the House, both kind of veto proof votes, and then the President sent it into law. And you know, you don't get those kind of votes anywhere out in d c Um. You know, there's a lot of parsonship that's going on. People seem to be on one side of the other and fighting all the time. And this, you know, this bill that had not only land water Conservation Fund stuff in it, but a ton of other things I get passed overwhelmingly. And I think that's something to like revel in and really celebrate and then take that energy, you know into kind of our work is we go and for the rest of the year. So that's gonna be the big message, I think, is you know, welcoming the family that's you have something from every single state like we did last year. Um, and then welcome to those new chapters celebrating the growth and celebrating the big one that we just had them about a month ago. Yeah, and that's that's pretty incredible that the John Dingle Junior Conservation Management and Recreation Act, I think is is the full name of this bill you're talking about. It is a big one. And and you know, as as I looked at that, as you just said, a pretty resounding vote there that at least when I look at it, I see is that being proof positive of the impact that we as a community and b h A and all the other hunters and anglers and and other folks that enjoyed the outdoors. I feel like that's like this big billboard across, you know, on the highway across the country saying, hey, we can make a difference. Like over the last two or three or four years, there's been this really concerted effort across the country to to make a stand for public lands. And I feel like this is like the the sign that like they were hearing us, like we really influence people. Is that how you see this too? Is this like an affirmation of all the work that we've all been doing absolutely. You know, I think it's like the revolution is live, right and we're witnessing it. And I think that you know, it's first started back you know, when Schape has tried to to really you know, sell two million acres of public land and then that kind of cry that happened on social media and all across the country. I mean that I think that was the first piece that I was like, oh man, this thing is really starting to pick up some steam. Um. And then the idea that was like playing defense, and defense is always when you're losing something, I think there's always more of a call to action. You know, people are more fired up about losing um something that that they'll never get back. What I love about, you know, where we were with this public lands package is that that's something that was proactive and people still you know, they made phone calls, they showed up at meetings, they sent emails, and so they're really feeling empowered right now. So I think it's you're exactly right that there's been this like awakening um I think around public lands and that you know that really we don't have these public lands by accident, and they're not going to be carried forward by accident either. And so when you get a big win like this, like that's a notch on the belt, and I think we're gonna be able to use that momentum as we go forward. But yeah, I think it's you know, we're witnessing a public lands kind of revolution, and you know that an indication of the validation of that revolution. Yeah, it kind of it kind of brings back echoes of and tell me if you do disagree with this at all, but it kind of reminds me of of what happened in like the late fifties and early sixties when there was this big fight within the public land sphere over Dinosaur National Monument. They're gonna put a big dam in there and it would have flooded these beautiful canyons out there on the board of Utah and Colorado. And there's a huge uprising of folks kind of across the conservation community saying, hey, we are not okay with this incredible place that was recently somewhat recently protected being flooded and damaged for for development. And we ended up winning that battle. The damn was pulled out of the development plan, and then the conservation community took that momentum, so they're playing defense. They had this momentum and they took it, and they moved forward and actually got the Wilderness Act past a handful of years later. Um. And then after that was all sorts of great public plan and constant relations conservation related things happening in the sixties and seventies. Do you feel like we might be kind of in a similar wave of momentum that we could push forward with that kind of positive difference in the future. Yeah, I would say absolutely, And I think it's a it's a great kind of comparison and that, you know, I mean if people are I think a lot of people have thought their voice didn't count anymore in this country. You know, when you think about big business, you think about the lobbyists, you think, you know, man, I'm just one person. How can I make a difference? And I think again, starting back with kind of shape, it's kind of pushed back. And then now this positive peace, like the squeaky wheel still gets the grease in this country, and people are realizing that their voice does count. And yes, there's a lot of deals that are done in the back rooms out in d C. And there's a lot of influence from lobbyists and and in big business, but you know, we the people ultimately are the ones making the votes. And I think when people start to speak up and ask for things, even demand them, which I would say it happened with Land and Water Conservation Fund once it's sunset, it as the people demanded that that we make sure we permently authorize that program. That politicians listen, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, they want to be elected again. And when the people you know are just banging at their door, um, you know they listen and and and while they do have those other influences, you know, they they want to be voted on in those big businesses and and lobbyists like they only got one vote too. So, um, I'm pretty excited about it. It's like it's like this empowerment kind of nature of what's going on right now. And in thinking about how we take the momentum from you know that these votes that we just had in this public lands package, you know two other things. So it's exciting times I think to be limited. Yeah, So, so I want to talk about the the Dingle Conservation Act in a little bit more detail. But before that, I guess I think we got a little caught up on the defense side. That you talked about back with the Chief. That's bill that came out h R. Six twenty two, and and everything that happened back in I think that would have been two thousands, six seventeen. I think it was January two seventeen maybe that happened. Um. And like you said, that was kind of like an Aha moment, not just for us probably but probably for a lot of other folks within the government kind of seeing what kind of momentum was there. Um. And since that point, I remember having a conversation with Randy Newburg about this that that was like a very overt bill saying like, hey, we want to sell this land. And then there was a handful of other things around the time where they're talking about selling or transferring public land ends and and of course you guys and and this whole community kind of stood up and said, no, we are not okay with a transfer or sale of land. Um. It seems like since that point there hasn't been as much There haven't been as many proposals like that that overtly call for that kind of thing. But now there seems to be this death by a thousand cut strategy, like little stabs here and they're taking taking a chunk out of a specific regulation or specific place or something like that. Is that kind of where you see things right now as far as the evolution of what was this land transfer movement and and I don't know, maybe now it's like a land chip away at it movement. Um. Is that an accurate way to describe it. I think that's an accurate way to describe it at a federal level, UM. But I think at a state level there is still like this. I think this movement of transfer or cell of public lands is still alive. And well, um there is a uh will that management area right now in Missouri that the legislature is trying to put up on a chopping block. I think it's I might not get this right, but I thinks like nine thousand acres um that was just established recently, as you know, as this wildlife management area where people can go hunt and fish, and you know, the legislature is trying to take that ability away. Um. There's no net gain of public lands bills that are happening all across the West and the mid West. Um. And and so I think that that kind of sell and transfer movement is alive and wealth to stay level. But at the federal level, I think you're exactly right, but I think it's it's done. And and so that's again because the people spoke up and they were loud, and I think made an example in particular, you know, out of Mr Schafitz, and you know that picture that he had of himself and that uh, that dog and he's wearing all samos um. That was an indo. You know that he was responding to the people. And so I think his colleagues recognize that. And I still think you know, um Centator Mike Lee in particular, he gave a speech this last summer to uh kind of a very conservative of pro transferred crowd and talked about how, you know that maybe right now the atmosphere wasn't there to actually get something done, but he said that he was in this for the long, long term and the long term fight, and then he was committed to making sure that we you know, transferred earners sold those public lands. And so I think it's always going to be underneath the surface mark. But right now at a federal level, I think we've pushed back, UM, and I think again that's the people that have done that. The politicians have listened at a state level, they haven't quite heard that kind of Vietnam like like push back and disdain for those ideas as quite as much as they could, especially in you know, just in Iowa, and they had a no net game kind of bill there and that's where we have a brand new chapter there. And you know, we were able to mobilize people. And that's a pretty small chapter they started I think earlier this year like a hundred and fifty members and now they already have four hundred and fifty. But they were able to push back. But again, like that's happening at a state levels, Well, I wouldn't say it to that UM at all at a state level. And then I also say it's always the surface. Yeah, um so, so I want to talk about that Iowa group too, because that was a pretty great thing, a pretty neat example of these new chapters jumping up in different parts of the country than you typically think of when it comes to public lands and and right away making an impact. I saw an article of a few weeks ago showing that hundreds of folks showed up at a committee meeting about this bill, and I don't think that probably had ever happened about a public land bill in Iowa around this type of issue. And it sounded like folks were pretty taken aback by it. And it sounds like it got made some impact in the House. It sounds like a center version of the bill maybe was still pushed forward. But that was cool to see. But back to the back to the bigger picture stuff. Yeah, given like the fact that there is this kind of underneath the surface, still a desire to work towards sale or trans public land in the long run, but in the short term, they're now taking this, you know, get a little bit here, a little bit there. Um, what kind of stuff should we be keeping an eye out for or are there any specific proposals or bills out there right now that are that are particularly dangerous Because I feel like when we were talking about sales and transfers, like those headlines got attention, you know, that got Joe Rogan, and that got all these other people to like jump on Instagram and say something about it. But it seems like these other ones can fly under the radar much more easily. Um, how do we keep that from happening? How do we keep track of the smaller things that add up to big things. Yeah, that's a great question. I think that you know, nothing is going to be as sexy as like, you know that kind of public Land's kind of sail out. And when I say that, it's just like, that's what I mean, You're totally right. You know, when Joe Rogan picked this up, I think that's one of the only times he's used as platform for advocacy. Um, And there was a you know, immediate threat, and you know, it was something that was very tangible and people can understand, and they jumped all over it, and so, um, that's pretty sexy to me as far as like organizing the world is very simple. Um, I think some of these death by a thousand cuts pieces, they're not as sexy at all. I mean, I think, you know, one thing that is super important is to watch the budget. And you know, right now the Congress is working on a budget and and figuring out kind of how they appropriate funds and then you know, like how they're going to keep the government open as well as kind of fund our agencies at a for service level, A Bureau Plant Management level, at a U S Special Life Service level. And you know, the budget that the President came up with this year had really drastic cuts to all three of those agencies UM, some in the upwards. And and so at that point, you know, that's that death by a thousand customer you're talking about, that really is starving these agencies of the food that they need. And so ultimately, you know, they can't do their jobs, they can't keep roads open, they can't do while I've had it, that improvement projects UM, and and that makes the body of these agencies look sick and then feeds into this idea of sale um. But budgets aren't that sexy. You know, it's just playing and simple. It's a it's just not something that people necessarily got wi around. And so I think our job is to make you know, make that simple. I think you know, as in you as a communicator, to make that stuff simple. And then when we have leverage points where we have action, is to to really be able to reach out to people and engage them. And again, I don't think we're gonna get you know, necessarily the the Vietnam kind of pushback that we've got with shape its um. But I think it's a place for us to you know, I think there's much more hyper awareness around public lands and other manage now than there ever has been, at least in my career, and and so I think let's use that as to our advantage and work on things. Um. You know, I think this this idea of energy domination right now in this country that has you know, kind of hurt our stage grounds conservation implementation plans, is putting oil and gas you know, development in the middle of you know, the longest mule deer migratory corridor in the country, which isn't isn't uh whelming. Like those are the kind of things that I think we need to pay attention to and really be contact in our lective officials about as well as administrative officials about and leting them know how we feel. And so to me, again, that's b achance job is to really make those things as simple as possible and then make the you know, the connection to these people that make decisions as easy as possible as well. So that's I think, you know again, like I it's how do we make it, you know, so people get more engaged. I think that's just education in a lot of ways. Um. You know, I think we're there's a lot of positive stuff that I can talk about that we're gonna be working on, which I'm glad that not just playing defense, but people need to stay visual one as well. Yeah, And I feel like with all these little things like that, Um, not only is it easy to not even find out a out of, but I also worry, like on my end of it, as someone who's like trying to spread the word about things and none yours and you're trying to spread the word about things. Um. There's this idea of I think I think people refer to as like issue fatigue or something along those lines, um, where like if if you keep honking the horn or or yelling into the megaphone saying danger, danger, or whatever, the more and more you say that, the more and more you do that, the more people eventually start to tune it out and just there's too much. They can't they can't send an email for every single issue. UM. So this is like one of the things I internally struggle with, like, how do I pick and choose the things that we really need to get folks motivated to act on? How do you how do you think about that. How is bh A thinking about that, um, because it's probably something we all need to be kind of thinking about, right it is. I think, you know the way we try to couch it again, like these leverage points. You know, what is the you know in the process, what is the decision making that's going on? And so you know, let's take Land Water Conservation Fund. You know, there was a lot of education effort that happened around that fund. I mean it was like the best kept secret for a while in the United States, like you know, the number one access to that nobody knew about. And so there was a ton of education that got put into that piece. And so you're you know, creating reports, you're showing examples, um of real places that people can go and experience. And so then by the time that thing sunset last fall, people knew much more about the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and so when they find out that this thing, you know, is going away, that's when that pushed back really was was um, I think, uh, pretty harsh and and that wouldn't happen I think without that education. And so I think there's like stages to all these things. And so I think the education piece in particular is important. Then it's like not going I think you're totally right with like an issue fatigue. It says, let's not you know, say, if bill gets introduced, then it's going to go through a committee, then it's the North center subcommittee, then it goes into a committee, and then now it's going to be on the House floor center floor, like if you took action, if you ask people to take action every single one of those like kind of points. I think that's to make it that issue fatigue. So it's like trying to figure out like when the most important things are and I would say, you know that would be in an ultimate committee meeting and then um, when it's on the floor either of the Senate of the House. So trying to pick and shoes, so education and then picking and choose kind of when those leverage points are and is that can I tell you like a perfect playbook for that? You know? You know, I think there's sometimes you know, there's bills that are introduced that are basically just ideas and they're floated as balloons, you know, trying to figure out if that, you know, if there's an opportunity to move them forward. Is that you know, things that we should be spending time on. You know, it just kind of depends on what that bill is. And so um, that's again that's why John Gale gets paid the big cash over here at v h A or whatever. Maybe not the big cast that some cast um to uh to really think about like that leverage point. And we have you know, somebod out in DC. Now we've got partners that we can talk to about because if you do that too much again, people stopped responding. And that's the last thing we want, especially right now when they're feeling that juice so much that they're voice both count So speaking of their voice counting and speaking of LBCF, let's let's revel a little bit in that we we briefly mentioned that it was this big win and improved positive of the fact that we could all make a difference. But um, but for those who aren't aware of what that was all about, can you give us like the thirty second cliff notes on what we achieved with the passing of this bill, um, and and probably especially with l WCS as you mentioned that as well. Sure, so for those who don't know what the Land of Water Conservation Fund is It was established in than king sixty four when oil and gas development was starting to increase in the Gulf of Mexico. And the thought then of Congress was, if we're doing you know this this re furs extraction on one resource in the Gulf, we should be you know, giving back to another. And and so that bill passed, I think the Senate one originally. So it's huge bipartisan support basically taking excise taxes off of or excuse me, royalties off of oil and gas development and putting that that back into conservation and access state side. And so I think of the counties in the United States have utilized this money. And that's all the way from you know, baseball fields and swimming pools and rural America to UH parks to fishing access sites to big kind of conservations, um easement um, to you know, additions to our public lands of state. And so this this fund has again been used in nineteen sixty four. It's sunset last September September, and which meant that you know, we were going to have the ability to to really send these funds out stateside anymore. And and so now that it has been passed, it's permanently authorized and so don't have to worry about this thing sunsetting anymore. What that legislation did not do literally provide funding. And so still we have to go back to the appropriations process every year and try to get as much out of the nine million has been authorized back to this this program. And you know recently that's enjoyed anywhere from like three hundred four hundred million dollars that you know back in four that brought you a lot more than it does today, um. And then that has to be split up, you know, between all safety states. And so the next plus with that bill really is with that fund is to try to get it for dedicated funding, so away from the appropriations process, dedicated funding and full funding, and that full funding would be at nine million dollars and that would get us you know, a lot better places, um than we are today. There's opportunities and there's tons of landowners and tons of access opportunities all around this country. But if we don't utilize just you know, don't have the money to utilize now, you know, potentially those opportunit just go away. So that's lwcf UM. It's awesome, awesome tool, and you know it again has been used by the counties in this country. Um. Besides you know, the that big, big piece, and I think that was a driving factor when you see the votes. There's also some some smaller pieces within that and um one of them would be the Frank and Genie Moore. While steel had special management area that's in Oregon's the Steelhead Spot UM that basically provided some protection along um this river to make sure that you know, the steel had could be around forever. Um. There was mineral withdraw that happened in the Mental Valley and again pretty much around fish of Yellostone Gateway. There was another place where there was mineral withdrawal basically saying that you can do, you know, everything you want on that public land besides take out minerals. And the Yellostone Gateway just like it sounds, it was right outside of Yellowstone Park. Just not a place that you wanted to have like an open pit mine there. UM. And there was other I think ultimately there was about five million acres of new wilderness that was protected, about five hundred miles of wild and scenic river um. So that was huge. And then one of these ones that uh, you know that people probably don't pay attention to that much, But was re authorization of the Neotropical Migratory Bird Conservation Act, which say about five times staff that's almost harder than the Dingle Junior act um. But it prontly authorized that and and then increased funding to six point five million dollars. And so these are four you know, neotropical birds little these little birds that enhance you and I, you know, time out in the woods. There are the things that we're pursuing, but I couldn't imagine my life without them on the ground. It kind of goes back to that that Aldo Leopold saying like that all parts matter, you know, it tends to be good for the biological biological community. That's good, and when it's not, you know, it's it's it's a bad thing. And so this is really making sure that our ecosystems um our whole um, at least for migratory bird um. So that that was a big piece of that as well. But then there was other pieces that I could talk about, but I think those are some highlights. Back on the LBCF front. You mentioned the fact that yeah, it's reauthorized, but it's not fully funded. Um I think I saw recently that a bill was proposed to permanently fully funded. Is that right? And is that one of those leverage points that we need to really focus on and push on that specifically or is it still early on that No, I'd say absolutely so. Right now bill has been introduced, UM, and it was introduced with bipartisan support, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but I had equal Democrats and equal Republicans and a good representation in the Senate. And so that bill has been introduced. The calls for full funding so at nine million, and then dedicated funding so off the appropriation cycle. And so that bill. You know, if anybody's listening to this right now, they can call their senator and ask them to become a co sponsor of that bill. U see trying to think if I got something, I can tell you exactly what that is. I will look for that and I'll tell you UM and so like that. If they if they, all you have to do is we even need to build number. But it's just you know, call your elected official, UM and say, become a co sponsor of the bill to fully fund and fully and dedicated funding to the landwater Consulation Fund and and so that's a big deal right now, and I think that that will move through the Senate um. And then we got a little bit of a different situation in the House, which you know, we don't have a build introduced there yet, but there's some questions about where they want that funny to come from. So, um, that's something you can do right now. Okay, that's definitely a good one to to be keep an eye on and in an easy way to make a difference on that, because, like you said, LWCF, it's not something that's just impacting folks and the Rockies. It's not just someone who's impacting folks in the Pacific Northwest or down in like these big public land areas that people think of. I mean, that's I remember looking up there's there's a map somewhere. I can't remember where I found this, but it mapped out all the different l w CF funded projects across the country over time, and I could see, like a river that I love to fish, there was a project there. There was a force that I used to hunt, There have been a project there. There was somewhere in the city where I grew up. I mean, there's all these things to impact people in the Midwest, in the Northeast, and the South. I mean, it's across the board. This is this is positively impacting people's lives. So we've got a big part of it across the finish line. But this is you know, it's great to have it, but if there's no money in the fund, we can't do much. Um. So, so yeah, let's let's use that as one of the focus series. UM yeah, I mean, I would, I would. You know, it's it's super important. Sorry, it's super important here in the West for sure. But you know, as I'm traveling across the country and kind of you know, doing my due diligence and and you know, kind of studying what's going on in two of these states. Like I'll take Iowa again as an example, is that you know, we have two percent public lan um they ranked forty ninety eight out of fifty. It kind depend on how you count it as far as how much public lands they have compared to other states. And the Land of Water Conservation Fund quite literally is pretty much the only opportunity they have to increase the public estate there in Iowa, and they've done that in recent years. Um. I mean it's again I think this this property was like nine thousand acres or ten thousand acres. That's huge, you know for them, and they're that's something that you know they can make now access and go a hut and fish on. So to me, I think it's just as important, um, you know, in in the Midwest and the East as it is in the in the West, and that you know, not only as a way to grow to the state, but also to gain access to you know, waterways in particular. Yeah, in your travels across all these different states. Now, as you mentioned, there's all these new chapters opening across the rest of the country, the East, the Midwest, etcetera. Um, are there any other like local issues you've come to become aware of when it comes to these public land concerns or opportunities? UM, I mean you've been everywhere. I've seen in Washington, I seen in Iowa, have seen in Minnesota. UM, any other examples other than that when you mentioned Iowa that that stand out is something Folkstionelbo you know, I think that Uh, I mean, this is this takes us away maybe totally from the public Plan's piece, but I think the CWD is becoming justice. Yeah, I mean it's that's on everywhere I go. It's on the people's like on the forefront of their mind and trying to figure out, you know, what they do. And you know, Wisconsin kind of took a slow play and now they're paying for it a little bit. And our chapter up there's actually leading kind of an effort on for us for a policy statement on you know c w D. What do you do once you get it? And how should we kind of address that? And so I think c w D is at the forefront of almost every single conversation that I have, no matter where I am, um, And that's unfortunate that, uh you know that that that conversation is becoming elevated because that means it's that disease is literally reading everywhere. At the same time, I think that since it is being elevated, I think there's you know, opportunities for conversations around that. Um. You know again, I think i've you know, we don't even have a chapter in Oklahoma yet, but you know, I went down there and we did a couple of point nights and talk to them, and then some stuff happened to state legislature around restricting you know, the Fishing Game Agency in buying kind of new public man you know from willing willing private landowners that want to either give their land to the state or sell it, you know, UM to them that there was legislations proposed there that you know what has said that the legislature had to approve anything that went forward, and so are our folks weren't even developed as a full on chapter, but they were able to work with you know, the Department UM and then members really pushed back against that piece. And so I think if there's I mean, this isn't an issue, what I would say, there's a lot of hope across this country right now. You know, especially in these states like Iowa, Handsas Um, Indiana, Oklahoma that really don't have a lot of public plan I think they value it almost more. Um in places where we have a lot of public planks. I think sometimes we take it for granted. They do not, Um, they really value these places. And UM. I think the one that I would say it's an issue it's popping up everywhere is really water access and whether that be up in South Dakota where they're trying to limit lake access where now half the lake is considered private even though there's been public funds put into boat ramps. UM. That's an interesting situation down Louisiana. UM kind of marsh access is being challenged all the time. And so you know, places that that people have gone for you know, lifetimes are now being restricted or these little passes are being gated off. And you look at beach access in Florida and then North Carolina and in California that's being restricted where we challenged that, say, um, all like that water access. You know, I think the there's a couple of ways to look at water, UM, both for like drinking and kind of irrigation, but also for recreation. And I think there was a quote at one point on the maybe it's something we live by here in Montana, but whiskeys for drinking and waters were fighting. And I think as you know, water becomes more and more of a finite resource, like you're gonna see that become much more of an issue all the way across the country, and you know in the Louisiana in particular, I don't know how much you know about that. The river delta, Okay, so there's a Missispan River Delta that's been you know, it's like the most productive water fowl places in the country. I think that winter our ducks. It's awesome for redfish and speckled trout. It's kind of like a nursery. And that marsh has been kind of disappearances the twenties because we cut that river off, um you know, like the all the fresh water and sediment that comes from up north, you know, Montana, Minnesota. Uh that trickles down, all that just goes out in the middle of the goals. And we did that to protect that, you know, protect the people that were living down there from the you know every year in the spring when there was a flood, which is a good thing, but what that's done is it's it's really killed the marsh because it doesn't it isn't supplemented about that fresh water in the sediment. And so as that marsh has receded, I think it's received even as you know, but the size of the state of Vermont as that's receded, like that just puts way more stress on you know, water access because there's less places to go. And so I think, you know, while there's been traditional access down there for a long time, Um, now that that you know there's less and less places to go, then this has kind of coming to the head. So, um, water is gonna be something I think that we continually watch. And we've hired somebody over here at d h A and that's all they do is like a kind of water access issues across the country, and so you know, that's basically trying to get up to speed the experts on that piece and then engage our people on the ground. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely one of those things that impacts everybody, whether you hunt or fish or just want clean water, which which brings us to something that has been all over the news just recently, which is the changes to the Clean Water Act. Um, can you and I think we're well correctly if I'm wrong, but the comment period has past us now unfortunately, but I think it's probably still important that we understand what's going on if if if we don't already, can you get us up to speed on on what's been proposed as far as changes to that. Why you know what the Clean out Water Act even is maybe for some folks would be good to know too. Yeah, I think the when you talked earlier and I thought this was great when you talked about kind of like the momentum and start back in the sixties, you know around um kind of just public lands. And then we got the Womanness Act, and later in the seventies have you know, the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts that were established, and really the Clean Water Act was originally established because you know, we were just polluting our rivers um here in the United States. I mean there was rumors that you could literally um right on the fire, you know, because they had so much oil in them. Um. And so yeah, it's just it's just crazy that that is. You know, it's not that long ago when you think about it. And and so that's the way it was originally, um, you know put forth is basically to protect the waters of the US that belonged to you and I and every American and to make sure that we had those you know again, that we had clean water for drinking and for irrigation and and so that when that was established again it was like bipartisan Nixon's had that into law, and and so it's just great kind of conservation victory. Now there's been some challenges to uh, what is actually a jurisdictional water so underneath the Clean Water Act, and that one of those challenges through a court case was around temporary wetlands and intermittent streams. So temporary wetlands are these wetlands like in North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and other places in the country where they're only wet during the spring, and so you know, there's there's there's the spring rains, and and there's these little dips in the in the topography and those they are filled with water. Well, those have awesome invertebrate life, so insect life in there that are really really important to ducks in particular waterfoll and so um. While they're not like those those are not connected directly to a river, back in two thousands, those uh they lost protection. So those temporary wetlands. The same thing happened with intermittent streams. Intermittent streams, you know, are only run during the spring as well when it's kind of high water, and so they're not year round streams, but they're super important especially to uh uh spawning trout. And and so both those lost protections back in two thousands. And then the Abam administration that the length the uh comment period and throughout that comment period, I think there was over a million people that provided comments, the majority of which, like supermajority of which were to restore protections. Is that's exactly what the administration did, you know, restoring protections to intermittent streams and temporary wetlands. And then the new administration came in and said, no, we're gonna roll it back again. So at must we're gonna start a process and look at that. And so that's what's been going on. I think that comment period was over last week, and again I think there's an overwhelming amount of comments there in support of restoring kind of these protections. Are keeping these protections, but um, you know, there's gonna be a decision made that we're that we're worried about that's really gonna take away protections for the intromittent streams and temporary web us. So unfortunately it's become like this political football. This gets passed back and the fourth instead of when you know, it was established back in the in the seventies, when it was really a bipartisan nature and something that you really stood the test of time. It's open tsan. Yeah, So you bring up an interesting point this this whole game of political football where it's like this pendulum is swinging every four to eight years, where you get pro conservation stuff, um, from one party, and then a new administration comes in, it swings the other way and stuff gets pulled back, and then it goes back and forth, back and forth. And it doesn't seem like since the seventies, really late sixties and the seventies when you had that you just talked about with Nixon passing the Clean Air and Clean Water Act, and then that was the Endangered Species Act, and there was I mean, all these things that the wellness cycle we talked about in the sixties, all this really foundational stuff that now are we depend on, you know, our environment and public lands are all a lot of ways depending on those those acts that passed there in the sixties and seventies by Republicans and Democrats. We haven't really had that kind of biparts and support at all since then. Um, maybe barring this this recent bill that just passed in a in a pretty rare by by parts and fashion, do you think do you think we can ever get back to what it was at that time in the in the seventies, Um, do you think that this is this recent bill is an example that happening, or is this kind of a flash in the hand and it will probably get right back to these issues are split down party lines and you're stuck. It's a really good question. I think we're living in very interesting times. Um, you know the I think what happened since the seventies and kind of early eighties when there was this kind of bipartisan nature and people were working together. I think there was a wedge that was driven between the sportsman's community and the environmental community. And I think when you have those two working together, I think that's why That's why I surmise of why we had such bipartisan efforts and it got such great things accomplished back at that time. And I think there's been a you know, a really thoughtful, systematic kind of division and created between the two. Um is that we're gonna come back? I'm not sure. I think that one thing that I'm super excited about is as kind of you know, the the other human sports, I guess human powered sports folks get more organized, so like the kayakers, the mountain bikers, the climbers, backpackers, as they're getting more organized, that I'm starting to feel like we're getting to some of that critical massages. And I think that play it out, you know, in a big way with those public lands packers that just packed just passed in such overwhelming fashion. I think that, you know, that it will be interesting to see kind of how um just emerging kind of voice works with kind of hunters and ahbers who you know, we've been doing conservation and caring about public lands for a hundred and fifty years and so as those you know, and I don't I hate to kind of pigeonholed people in places like you know, there's plenty of our members the ride mountain bikes and go back country skiing and kayaking when they're not hunting and fishing. You know, their outdoors people, and so you know, whatever chance they get there out in the woods around the water. Um. But I do think there is kind of like this perceived division between kind of by so again, the human power folks and the hunters and anglers. And I think I'm started to see that that's coming together, and so I have great hope in that. And you know, when you think about like the people that hunt and fish and the people that kayak and Mountain Bike. Like, that's every single political stripe in this country. You know, that's a that's Democrats, that's Republicans, that's independents, that's libertarians, that screen party, Like all those people love to get outside and on the water, and so I I don't want to be you know too um the classes you know, so have full on this thing. But like that gives me hope, Mark, and and I think that, you know, at the end of the day, I think that that if we bring these two groups together, we're not going to agree on everything all the time, the boy on the things that we can't agree upon, like this public Plan's package. If we can have a unified voice, and I think that we'll get what we want. I thought it was really encouraging last year at the b h A Rendezvous of two eighteen when uh, you know, in a very symbolic I thought it was very symbolic of this kind of bringing together of these two halves of the outdoor community. When a Van Schinnard you know, made an appearance that the rendezvous was walking around the beers bands in public Lands to night, he shared a story and and stood up on stage in front of everybody and said that this was like the I think he said something on the lines like this is the most impressive group of people I've ever seen. Um. And you know, he's the for those who don't know, he's the founder and CEO of Patagonia, which is I think they've kind of established themselves as as a leading voice for public lands and conservation related issues in that community, if you want to call the ri I crowd. UM, I feel like they have really taken that strongest stance. And so to have like the leader of that section or that group saying, hey, I'm all for being here with a bunch of hunters and anglers um enjoining hands to to fight for these common causes. I thought that was like really great positive symbolism to see these two groups of people saying, hey, we can we can do these things together, even though, like you mentioned, we still disagree on a lot of stuff, like Nard and a lot of folks of Patty going in and a lot of folks in that community will disagree with a lot of hunters about specific things. You know, let's talk about grizzly bears are all sort of different hunting relations issues, Like there's gonna be stuff there, um, But I love the fact that there are these things that we can set aside some of these differences and say, Hey, you might live in the city, I live in the country. You might vote for this vote person, I might vote for this person. You might talk like this, I might talk like that. But there are these things that we can come together on because bigger than those petty differences. Um. And and like you said, I feel like the Dingle Conservation Act was one of those um results of that kind of thing happening. So so I agree with you. I hope that and I think there are these examples of the fact that that's that's starting to happen. Um. But I don't know where I heard, but someone said, like the fish rots from the head first. Um, And I'm hoping the opposite is true. So I'm hoping because I I see like this this biparson nature of like the the Rii crowd and the Cabella's crowd, Like I think we're starting to come together here down in like the body, like the average everyday people were saying, Hey, the hunters and anglers and mountain bikers and kayakers and wildlife watchers, we can get together to fight for these public lands. But it's how do we get the head of the fish. So are politicians Republicans, democrats, how do we get them to make sure to do the same thing? And and probably, like like we've been talking about, yelling really loud and very consistently to the right people, probably eventually reverses the fish route. Right. Yeah, I love that analogy. By the way, I'm trying to figure out where I'm on that fish right now. I think the uh, I think it goes back to like this idea of like the rule a little bit. No, we're gonna agree upon of the of things and then we disagree. And I would say, you know, amongst my friends that I hang out with, that we're on a rule, and like that's pretty good for us. And and and I'd say the same thing with my wife. You know, like if I if I told my wife that we had to agree upon pent of the same things all the time, I wouldn't be married to her, and vice versa. And and so I think this eight twin rule um is an important thing to remember. And and yeah, I think I think the grassroots are again there are many of the same people you when you think about the foodie movement. That's happening right now in this country, and a lot of kind of new hunters that are early twenties, early thirties that didn't grow up hunting, but they're super active outdoors. They grow their own gardens, and now they want to kill their own meat. I like, that's that crowd, you know. And I think that you know, we're doing storytelling events and in Minneapolis and in Seattle and in San Francisco and some of these urban centers. You know, we're getting some of those new people that are there and they're super interested and you know, want to jump in. And and I would say, you know, the kid who grew up uh, you know, hunting and fishing, you know, I'm Dad's back and just doing stuff from a very young age. Like like, these people are almost more passionate to me when they come to it because it's brand new to them, you know. And and so I welcome them to the floor. And I think again that you know, that food might be the best play to kind of bridge the gap with these folks. And you know, speaking to Paddock Gunya, we didn't invent at their headquarters and Ventura a couple of months ago, um, you know where we invited the public and had some uh wild boar for people to taste, you know, they just gotten shot two or three days before that. I think it was two or four picks and drank beer and ate wild boar and listen to some music and told some stories. And you know, what a way to bring people together. And again, I'm not gonna say that everybody walk out there singing the same sheet of music. But we're able to have conversations over food, you know, over a little beer, and you know, find common ground. And I think that's really what we need to be striving for. And I think that people are starving for that in this country right now. You know, there's a lot of a lot of memes and a lot of anger that's out there, and I think from trying to figure out where to come together and I I can't think of a better one than public moans of public waters. Yeah, so, so a an event like that, the Patagonia Headquarters event, or I know that you've been connecting with the folks or at o I A so the Outdoor Industry Association, which kind of represents that ARII crowd, if we'll just labeled that for now. UM, what's been like the feedback you've been getting from that community when when we talk about these issues, like is there the same positive vibes like they want to get together with hunters and anglers or is there some resistance still? What's the vibe you pick up there? You know, I think, um, I think there's some mutual interest. I would say that for sure. I think that, you know, some of the barriers are that you and I like to kill stuff, and I think sometimes people have a hard time getting over that and that you know that we're out there as predators while they're out there as observers, and so I think that's probably the biggest barrier to get over. I think food UM is helpful in that. UM. I think that you know, as you know, a lot of these folks are just starting to get engaged in conservation, and so as the story is told to them about kind of where we came from, why we have what we have today, and kind of some of these stories that you and I have talked about today already, they start to have a better appreciation I think for hunters and anglers, and you know, they're not just takers that were big time givers back to these public lands and public waters. And just conservation in general. I think once they started they figure that out. I think those barriers are broken down. But I'm not gonna say that it's all like rosy um. But I think the first part is like having those conversations. And you know, if we can get in the door and have those conversations, um, nine times out of time, I think we come out the other side book, you know, in a better place. Um. You know, we're working with folks like New Belgium. You know New Belgium you think about fat fire and kind of that crowd that doesn't necessarily feel like a hunting and fishing crowd. But you know, we were working with them multiple events that their headquarters in Colorado of something without or retailer UM show with them, and you know, what a what a great brand to kind of like bring people together. And again, you know, I think that you know, whoever invented beer, you know that was like I think it's like monks in the Ireland or something. But but like beers are bringing people together ever since it was it was you know, like created and so I think you know those ideas, um, and doing that I think is the way we get past some of that stuff. But you know, I think I guess one thing I would say that we as hunters, um also need to be careful of is that is that, yes, we have this amazing, rich history of controvertion. You think about the excise taxes during the nineteen twenties, you know with Pitman Robertson, think about the duck stamp. I mean, you know, many of the things that we've talked about today, like all that's awesome, and let's just be careful about beating on our chest too much and that, you know, and and and not acknowledging either other efforts now or roles of other people played. And I think you know, if we do that, I think it's a much more welcoming conversation. If we sit there and be like you got that, Johnny, come lately and we've done everything, and listen to us like, that's not really a great way to start a conversation, I don't think so. I think I would caution that, you know, all of us as ambassadors is to really, you don't be proud of our heritage, but not to be boastful, like too over boastful about it, if that makes sense, um. And And really I think you know, we're starting these conversations about you know, potential backpack tax, but it's kind of like an overarching theme. But that would be you know, hiking boots, backpacks, sleeping bags, like other stuff, mountain bikes that gets used in the outdoors, and really trying to figure out a similar system to what we do with like firearms, ammunition and fishing, you know, fishing and bowl equipment. And I think in that conversation, I mean, think about the money that would generate and and I think welcoming them to that kind of uh, to that opportunity, or at least talking about that opportunity. I think it's a good thing. Could be you know, one of the biggest conservation wins in our life, and we actually got that done. Yeah. Yeah, you make a couple interesting points, especially he said that the chest meetings. Sometimes I've thought about that too, and it's to your point. We have this tremendous legacy of what hunters have done as conservationists, all those things you listed, Um, but you know, there's this business saying that if you're not growing, you're dying, and I kind of feel like that applies to us as hunters, Like we can't just point to our past as um, affirmation of of our value. Like, yes, we can be proud of our past, but we have to be growing too. We have to continue to contribute to the future. UM. So I think that's that's where it becomes our our own us, right, that's our new responsibility. We can look back at what all these what our forefathers done, and be inspired by that. But now like it's on us now, we've got to take those next steps and hopefully fifty years a hundred years from now, our grandkids can look back and say, wow, look at what these folks did and what they did because of what they learn from folks in the thirties and the twenties and um and all that stuff. Which, then to your point with the backpack tax, this is one of those things that it makes a lot of sense, right, Why wouldn't folks in the across the board me too, buying backpacks or hiking boots, and then the rest of the recreation community community, why wouldn't we want to, um have some excise tax on that, giving back to conservation, public lands and whatnot. UM. But there's pushback on both sides of the issue. UM, there's pushback from the recreation community. It seems like the manufacturers and stuff about prices and stuff like that. But I'm more interested in the pushback from our community, which is I've heard some people say no, I don't want to backpack tax, because I like them quoting here in general and generalities here that the line being that, no, we don't want the backpack tax because then we lose our influence. Right now, hunters have this disproportioned influence because we're the ones that pay for the lion's share of conservation because of the Pittman robertson that. But if all of a sudden, hikers and bird watchers and all that stuff, all of the stuff, they can say, well, now we pay for some large majority of the two, then they start changing how decisions are being made about wildlife management, hunting, or whatever it might be. Um, is that a real threat or what do you think about that? How do we think about this? You know, I I totally recognize that threat of kind of losing our cloud and our kind of influence over decision making. Like, I totally recognize that. But I would say to people, and I've had this conversation many times, is that you know hunting and fishing numbers are either going down or they're being maintained. But we're really not, you know, we're not We're not in a huge influx of people hunters and anglers in this country. And even if we are maintaining or even gaining a little bit, we're still becoming less and less of a percentage of the overall population. And so let's let's think about that. And so you know, I think fifty years from now and we're headed towards this like this cliff, we're gonna go over the top of this cliff. That is, you know, like we just have lost all of our cloud because our numbers aren't that big. Like that's not a place that I don't want to think about. And so you know, well, we maybe potentially lose some cloud if we add some folks in potentially, um, And I think that, you know, that's a real conversation. That's one of the reasons to have, you know, build these relationships early. I think with you know, these folks that that don't you know, catch and kill stuff. Um. But at the same time, and we're not it's not like we're living in a land up plenty right now either, you know earlier in this conversation we'll talk about our agencies being starved, um and you know, this is a way to bring money in. And I think bring money in with people who have, you know, again many of the shared values that we do as hundreds and anglers that you know, they like to that solitude and the channels in the salts they can find out on our public lands and waters. And so I'm I'm much more of the game of let's work together with them, build relationships, um that and and add more money to the pot and then have conversations about how things are managed. And I think if we do that, I think we're in a much better place. Unless, you know, instead of don't necessarily like this analogy but sticking our heads in the sand and not really looking at what's going on around us. That analogy that you said earlier about you know, uh, you're not changing, You're dying, you know, And I really feel like we have to be doing that. And if you know, if we don't, but I don't know if the future looks so great for us. And I think if you know, if we do um that I think you know that our future looks much brighter. Yeah, So so then what is your your view of the future? Then where where do you see things headed? Based off reading the tea leaves, seeing what's happened over the last four years, there's been a lot going on. Um, WHOA, what do you predict we have coming down the line in the next few years? How do you see stuff around the election impacting things? Um? What should we be thinking about around all that? You know? I think that that there's a great question, and um, tea leaves or crystal ball are always hard, but I think that you know, as public lands become there's been much more of an awareness around them. I think it's gonna play in this next election cycle, the election cycle in a big way. Um, maybe not necessarily at a presidential level, but I think definitely at a kind of senate house level. I'm at a local level. Is that, you know, and I look at Montana in particular. You cannot be on the wrong side of this issue right now and get elected for a statewide office in Montana. And when I say against, you know, the issue is that if you are for the sale or transfer of public lands or kind of the systematic defunding or just kind of deterioration like you're not gonna get elected to Montana. And I think that's starting to permeate out other places. UM. And and so I think it's gonna be you know, really important election issue in UM. So. I think that's and I think that's a good thing. UM. I think that that you know, you know, people care about healthcare, they care about the economy, but as public lands and public waters, I think get elevated to a top tier issue. I think that's a good thing for all the things that you and I care about. There again, is always gonna be differences on how we manage those places, but I think that that's something for us to pay attention to. UM. I think along those lines, I think there's something that we all need to be paying attention to. Crystal Ball wise, is that you know, this is hunting. I'm not. And I just come out and say, I mean, hunting has been dominated by white males for a long time in this country, and those demographics are changing in this country. And and I think that we need to recognize that and be well com mean and so that you know, organizations and so that you know, media portray and like it looks more like the country does. And I say that because you know, as we want votes and and that's really ultimately what's going to keep us um kind of on the up and up for our conservation legacy and help us pass it on to the next generation. I think we really need to be conscious about, you know, looking more like America and much more diversity within our ranks, within the hunting of the fishing ranks. I think that's starting, UM, But I think, you know, crystal ball wise like twenty and twenty four, Like I just I just like our community reflect more of what America looks like right now. Yeah, that's a great point, and that will play very much into the whole issue we're just talking about, which is hunter numbers declining so much and our influence declining with that. Well, if we aren't willing to welcome different kinds of people into our community, there's no way that our numbers are gonna grow. So it's uh, even though it's the right thing to do, and it's also self serving as well, which is nice that they go in hand to hand. UM. One of the back to what you were just talking about on the election side of things and how public lands are becoming a bigger and bigger deal. One of the things around this UM that always causes I think people in our community some struggles internally, UM that I just kind of want to get an idea of how you think about this to kind of help us think about it, because because I struggled with this too. Is Unfortunately, UM things are split down party lines in a lot of cases, as we talked about a few minutes ago, and one of the big splits oftentimes not always, but oftentimes is you're gonna get one candidate that is great on public lands and taking care of the environment and inhabitant whatnot, but not really good on hunter rights firearm rights. Then you might have the other candidate that's really good at firearm rights and hunter right but not very good on public lands and uh in conservation. How do you personally like deal with that internally in your head or how do you recommend us dealing with that, UM or changing that? Because probably the best solutions just to change that, but I'm not sure if that's gonna happen in the short term or not sure. UM. So just to be clear, uh back, and we're a five one C three, so we can't you know, tell you who to vote for. Endorsed candidates anything like that, Like we can give you information and so then people can figure that out for themselves, which we've done through candid questionnaires. But we're forbidding as a five O one C three from you know, endorsing or being part of that politcal process um, the election process. I would say, uh, how do I look at that myself? I think I'm I'm on the second part of that, like where I think we need to force our elected officials to be both good on guns, hunter rights and public lands and conservations, and I don't think we should be. I mean, I think I get pretty frustrated when I hear that dichotomy. I know that there's a lot of truth and reality of that. There's also a lot of great of that as well, And when we talk about that in black and white ways, I think it feels defeat us a little bit and that we're never gonna be able to change it. But I've got plenty of examples, you know, on both sides of the aisle of people that are more in that gray area, and I think that we the people need demand that they're like that. And you know, I think, you know, I'm born in Raidingsing in Montana. So I know Montana best, but you know, are elected officials like set A at a statewide level, they're both good on guns and hunter rights as well as public fans and conservation, and there's nuances to each side of that. But you know, I mean Democrats if they're if they're if they're antisecond amendment in this state, they're not gonna win at a at a state level. Um, if you're a Republican and you um, you know, are have draconian ideas about public lands and other should be managed, you're not going to win a statewide race. And so I think that didn't happen because they woke up one day and they're like, that's a good idea. That happened by people on the ground demanding, what you know, those things from them. And so to me, I think that gives me hope for other parts of the country. And you know, it goes back to the thing I said earlier in this conversation is that you know, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and if you are demanding of your politicians that you can't be one of the other, you have to beat both. I think we have a much better chance, Um do I think that's gonna happen in the short term, probably not. Um do I think that there's always gonna be you know, there's always gonna be people on one far side, you know, on the left or on the far side on the right, that's always gonna be there. But man, I gotta think that the majority of this country is more in the middle, and we just have to demand it. And I think we've a much better places we did. Yeah. Yeah, that that's that's how I tend to to think and hope and and look towards the future with with hope that we can that we can do that. And I think, you know, that's forty seven the Dingle Johnson Act, I think is just again saying it again, But I just think it's it's a great example for us to point to and saying, hey, we can make some of these changes, we can make a difference, and and all these things we're talking about that we want to change in the future, like, hey, if that was possible, so are these things? So? Um absolutely, that's my that's my railing cry. At least, is there is there anything else land before? Let's you go back to the organized chaos of preparing for rendezvous. Is there any other final message or final things I want to stay on the phone with you, I think, I mean my final thought and like you've talked about this a lot, but I just always like to kind of lead with this is again, be proud of living here in America and owning sixty million acres. You know that that idea, you know, the public land owner, that's not just a slogan, that's that's really a way of life, something unique that we have here in America that no other country in the world has. Um you know, Canada is is probably the closest, and then you go like New Zealand, but really there is no other place like America. Like this is an ideal that you know that we should all be proud of and know that with that ownership becomes responsibility. And you know, when you own a car, you know you can't if you don't care and feed that car, it's eventually gonna you know, break down and seize up way before it what have if you would have cared and feed it. And so I think that, you know, let's be proud of what we have and then realize that, you know, we need to make sure that we pass it on to the next generation. And that's by being engaged. And that's the thing I, you know, I'd like to leave you with is really, you know, that hope and kind of that I'm seeing all across the Midwest in these states that only have you know, two percent public land or close to it. That man I went there wondering what I was gonna talk about, and I left therapy and like, oh my goodness, these books are on fire. And they care about not only what's happening in their own states and trying to you know, grow that public and state it, but they know that they own the Bob Marshall Wilderness. You know, that's in my backyard just as much as I do. And I think that's something for everybody to keep in mind. And I've I've been up to Alaska a couple of times for meetings, but never recreated up there, and maybe never will. I hope I will. But like that belongs to me and you, just like it does anybody else, you know, and I might I might not ever get there, but boy, is it a place that I dream about and having it there and just knowing there's a place that's that big in that wild is pretty awesome to me, and so um for anybody listening to this man, you own sex hundred forty acres, be prideful about that, understand where it came from, and then do everything you can to protect a point forward. Yeah, I think, uh yeah, I think that's a great, a great thing to to send us home on. And uh ma'am, I just want to thank you Land for being such a great leader of this movement there through b h A. But I think you've also not just of that organization, but but really you've done a great job of standing up and and being a a figurehead for this larger movement and really railing hunters and anglers and putting giving a hand out and not giving hand out, but reaching a hand out to other folks and saying, hey, let's all work together. You've you've led by example on that and personally that's been encouraging to see and I think for a lot of the folks too. So uh so, thanks for what you're doing. And I'm really glad that you're gonna be helping us all move forward in the future too. Mark, very kind and humbling words. I appreciate that. I think throw back, I mean to you that you know, with this podcast, you have a gigantic bully pulpit, as you know, it's what Roset used to call like the presidency, right Like, he's got this awesome megaphone that he gets to use. And I think what you and everybody I'm so over at Mediator is doing like you guys have a gigantic bully pulpit right now. And I know I'm super spoke to be kind of in that arena with you alls, um and and and really, you know, the reason that I talked about this kind of public Land's revolution is really because folks like you are spreading that message. So um, the thank you goes right back to you. We've got a lot of stuff to do together, Mark, and at some point we'll be celebrating together, um and I look forward to those days. But please keep up a good work as well. On your end. Sounds great, Land, Good luck with the rendezvous. Yeah, it's it's gonna be one heck of a party. I wish I was gonna be there next year. I will be next year, I will be all right. Thanks Land, and that, my friends, is the end of this episode. Just want to give another big thanks to Land. Tawny and if you're interested in learning more about land and what b h A is up to, you can visit back Country Hunters dot org and become a member too if you're not already highly recommended. I'm a member. I'm also on the board for a Michigan chapter. It's just a really, really great group of folks to work with in an issue that, as far as I'm concerned, it's just about second to none. So with all that said, thank you for tuning in. Thanks for being the kind of folks, the kind of guys and girls that stand up for these kinds of things, whether it be public lands or the future of our deer herds or private land, conservation, clean air, clean water, the right to hunting fish. I mean, all these things are around because folks in the pasta for him and I'm confident that folks like you are the ones who are gonna continue doing that in the future. And I'm just a damn proud person here today knowing that you're a part of this Wired Hunt community. So thank you. Have a great weekend, and stay wired to hunt.

Save this episode