00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon in this episode number twohund in seventy six, and today I'm joining the show by my good buddy Dan Johnson for a fun discussion about the Iowa turkey season, by Montana public land scouting and ship hunting trip, and two new deer hunting methodologies of sorts that Dan and I are developing. All right, welcome to another episode of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X, and today we are doing something we haven't done in too long. I think, um a while, it's been a little bit too long, and that is a full blown market Dan catch up the session on all sorts of topics. So, I mean, I don't know if we'll talk about any of these things, Dan, because we tend to go off on tangents. But we have the potential today to talk about career changes, to talk about kids, to talk about turkey hunting, to talk about shed hunting, yes, to talk about scouting public land, UH, to talk about what I'm coining my assumption to truth deer hunting methodology. Oh boy, that sounds complex. I know. We might need to work on the title. Is that gonna go way over my head? It might. We might talk about Disney movies. Oh boy, I got some I could drop some knowledge about Disney movies. I'm starting to learn a lot to um and that that's just like the first ten fifteen minutes. So that's that's that's what we potentially have in store, Dan, or anything else. We'd talk about Game of Thrones. Did you watch the new episode of Game of Thrones? No? I didn't, but it's on my list of things to do. Yeah, I woke up earlier this morning to watch him. Oh boy, don't talk about Okay, we can't talk about it then, So you're all you're all caught up though, Ready for the na Dude? You want to talk about some bench, some binging, right, so it would be like in your college days? Well yeah, different kind of binge. We didn't have Netflix back then, dude. So I'm thinking, you know, let me start this Game of Thrones thing and okay, let's check it out next thing. You know. Um, I'm you know, putting the kids to bed, I do my work, right, and then it's like, I can't go straight to bed, so I need to unwind. It's ten o'clock at night, and this is back when I had a job, and I'm just like, Okay, I can just watch one episode and then uh, you know, one epio sod and then I'll go to bed. Yeah bullshit. Right, It's like it's three am, and I'm just like, oh, Valerian Steel kills the White Walkers, I can't back, like, oh my god, you know, Like, and then I listened to myself talk. I'm just like, oh, dude, you are such a nerd. Yeah, you gotta watch out. You're becoming too much like me. That's yeah, that's that's been my typical calling car And now you're right there with me, dude. It's good stuff. And then guess what else dropped this weekend? Uh the news trailer for Star Wars. Oh you're right, yeah, I saw that. That was pretty good. Yeah. So I don't know, man, we'll see a lot of good nerds stuff in the future. Um, just when people think that they you know, because I'm just like, oh, dude, it'd be awesome if we hang hung out sometime or whatever. On social and then they're like, listen to this and then man, maybe not yeah, seriously question that. Uh you mentioned something in passing there that we have not covered yet public Glee, at least on the Weird Hunt podcast. So people haven't been like following you in other places on your own stuff. They might not know that you are now jobless, living underneath the bridge, eating a steady government diet, their steady diet government cheese. I think is how it goes? Is that? Right? Yeah? Absolutely? My my wife left me and uh, I'm living in a van down by the river, living your dream. In all seriousness, though, um, what is what is going on? Are things going? Well? Yeah, dude, it's it's weird, right. So, like I got laid off, and so they brought me in a handful of people. Like it was like this complete surprise, this complete like like company wide layoff. Right. They went in and they went into certain departments and they said, okay, everybody here is getting laid off, like this amount of people from this department or whatever got laid off. And uh it was funny because I walk in and they tell this news to us, and my brain instantly goes to Okay, I wonder if I can fit a podcast in this afternoon once I got laid off because you know, uh, it's just it's like, I don't know, you know, obviously think about your family and you're like, okay, how financially are going to make this work? But luckily I made some financial moves like a week or two before that, to like to prepare for my my stepping away from the cubical life. But it just happened sooner, and it happened faster, and um so I got a severance package, and I got on top of that severance package. I made that financial adjustment before it happened. So now that made that transition much softer into you know, full time you know, business owner, work from home podcaster, so on that side of things. It's just it's almost like a blessing in disguise, you know, yeah, kind of something you've dreamt off for so long, but kind of you know, there was all these different things you have to get ready, and of course it's a scary thing to do, and this kind of forced the issue, and like you said, almost seemed like a blessing in disguise. I talked to you, I think the day it happened, and you were, you know, I could tell like, yes, it was like a thing that was a surprise and that most people would find to be a negative surprise, but I could already tell it right then You're like, hey, this could be a good thing. So absolutely, that's good that you're that you land on your feet, and I'm sure you have a lot more time now to put into everything with Sports Nation and your projects with that. So that's uh, that's going all. Yeah. So another adjustment that you have to make, you know, is to find ways to save money. Right, So because I don't have a job that I have to go to every day, we pulled the kids out of daycare to save money, right, And so now that means on two days and Thursdays, I'm gonna stay at home dad, and you know, throughout the week. So I don't get anything done on Tuesdays and Thursdays until after my wife gets home or during quiet time when I can give my oldest son the iPad and my youngest son's taking a nap. And it's just like, yeah, it's just crazy because I can't. I can't, you know, I can't do anything else until that happens, and um, so frustrating what's Ava doing to that? She's school already? Yeah, she's she's in kindergarten. She I know, right, she turned six. She's a six year old. I have a six years too, fast man. When did I have Ava when we started this? Right? How long has this podcast been going on? It started the spring of two thousand and fourteen, so five years ago. So I guess you had Yeah, and Mac Mac would have been I don't know if he was born now he would Yeah, he was born in a prole. Yeah, he was born on the podcast. Yeah that's crazy. Yeah, it's not going fast man. So so, yeah, so she's at school, your babysitting the two of them. I don't know how you do that, because I feel like the way me and Kylie workers, since we both work from home, we split the day, so half of the day she's in charge of him, half the day I'm in charge of him, and and then two days a week her mom comes and takes him for the day. So for three days a week, I do that split thing. And it's really hard, like you said, to get anything done with just one, let alone two of them. Yeah, So what I found is I don't even I don't even try to multitask, but I don't. I don't try to do the Sportsman's Nation nine finger stuff while they're here, except during quiet time. I I just grind hard when it's my time, right, I put my headphones on and I just like hyper focus knocked three hours out, you know, I don't even get up from my chair. Knock three hours out out in a row, and I can get a lot of a lot accomplished in that time frame if I'm not interrupted. Right, So, like Mondays and Wednesdays, my wife works from home and uh she has a job where she has to be on a computer. But Monday and Tuesday mornings, my son is at preschool, so she's just watching knocks. And if you put on cartoons and you put on you know, throw some toys on the floor, he entertains himself for a while. Uh you know, give him a bottle and then he'll lay and watch cartoons while he drinks it. And it's, uh, it works, it's it's working, but it's frustrating at the same time. Yeah, I know what you mean. Um. We just recently for a front of the reason we just have not done TV a whole lot with Everett. Um, but we just kind of recently discovered that, you know, it's okay sometimes when you get do something what you're talking, gotta get some work done. Um, Sesame Street on YouTube is like crack cocaine to this kid, buddy, You put Sesame Street on and he is locked in like a zombie for forty five minutes. If you need a forty five minute window to get something done, you just put that on and bam. Yeah, clear sale. It's funny because you can relate crack addiction to children's addiction to cartoons like I will I will purposely put them in withdrawal from like I'll take the iPad away from them for like, you know, many days at a time, right, so they won't get there their quote unquote tablet time or screen time. Um. And then when I really need to do something like oh man, I got I got this deadline. I gotta um, I gotta have this podcast done by the end of the day or this you know, this document done by the end of the day. Okay, kids, it's iPad time. And then they just it's like a black hole. They just get sucked right into it. Yeah, I know. And then and then that's my time to work. So it's like, I'm used. I don't. I don't give it to them every day, but I I do when I really like need them to shut up. So, speaking of speaking of the job stuff, and it sounds like you got your your hands full already. But I ran across a possible job opportunity for you. Are you interested in hearing about it? At least? Is it? Because I think I ran across the same one as it like an adult bookstore. No, it was the wrong one. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Oho, that might be a better fit for you. I got. I got an email the other day from some Gail who is a talent acquisition coordinator, oh boy, for a commercial bird removal company. And she reached out. She's like, Hi, Mark, I'm a talent acquisition coordinator for such and such bird removal company. Uh. We like to search out hunters with extreme talent to take out problem birds across commercial properties across the country. So she was recruiting me to go out and shoot birds and like on top like a target store or something like that where there's holy cow, oh my god, you're sitting on like just imagine some psychopath on top of a target just blasting pigeons. Right, No, it's exactly what does envisioning during store hours or I think that could be your calling if the if the podcasting thing doesn't work out, that might be your next gig. Man. That's just that would be that would be fun though. I mean I would just but just imagine it in the opposite way. It's like, Okay, you gotta get rid of these birds, but you can't shoot them, right, So just imagine like you throw seeds out with all this poison in it, and then like all these birds, just dead birds all over the parking lot. I think I would try like a netting system of some kind. Criminals yeah, helicopter, yes, oh yeah, that tweet that could. I mean, I'll tell you what they do. Those birds are a real issue. I have issues the birds on my back porch of my barn. I've got like a covered porch and there's like cross beams along the top, and for whatever reason, all these I can't think what they're called. They're called shoot not sparrows, not they're they're black starlings, thank you. I think they're starlings. That's what I think it is. Um And they just flood this porch and sit on the crossbeams and ship all over everything every spring and summer, so everything on this porch gets crapped on and I've not I've I've power washers so many times. I put like a fake owl up on the crossbeams. I heard, maybe that's scared way. That didn't work. I then put these plastic spikes all along the cross beams that are supposedly supposed to keep birds from roosting up there hanging out up there. That didn't work. And the other thing is they also there's like little gaps in between the metal siding and then like the interior of the wall, and so they get inside the walls and nest in there. So they're nesting in there, they're pooping on everything. So I did the plastic spikes. Then I put like a wire mesh I don't know what it is, some kind of like wire mesh thing over all the gaps as best as I could to try to block those. Somehow, they're still warm in there. So yeah, I cat, uh farm cat. I don't have one that's actually mine. There. There is a cat or two that roams the area, but they don't seem to do anything about it. Put some cat food in the barn, dude, and let them come and they'll start to eat the cat food. Then you've got a cat on your property and that might help out. I just don't know if they can. Maybe maybe I need to find someone. Um, if there was like some kind of talent acquisition cordate or the hired commercial hard shooters. That's what I mean. Oh, that's money. I like how you pulled it back around, right, it's always yeah, gotta end with a little with a little throwback to the earlier topic. Uh so, yeah, that's a job opportunity for you. Speaking of job opportunities and birds. Um, my son can yelp at turkeys now, Oh, I'll tell you that. Did I bring that up in the past conversation yet? Is it just? Does he mimic your turkey call? Yeah? He mimics my turkey calling. But he's kind of half decent. For one year old and three months he can do like ape, which is pretty good. Let me ask you this, what happens if your son grows up and he has no passion for white tails, but he turns out to have this extreme passion for turkey hunting. Would you be ashamed of him? No? No, it could be much worse than that. I would take the Turkey passion, would be very happy about that. I'm more worried that he's going to have like an extreme, extreme passion for like playing the flute or something. I don't know what we're gonna do. Hey, dad, check out the six solo. I just came up the kid. He's amazing and and I really like music. Um so, like music is always playing in the house, and like I'll dance around just be goofy and stuff. So he really loves music, and he loves like dancing to music, and he's always bobbing his head. Um so. My wife always jokesles, you gotta be careful. Before you know it, he's gonna be like full blown. I don't know what doing. I could see him doing something music. I'm kind of hoping he'll be like a techno DJ or something. I could see that working out. But literally, like what if he gets into show choir right right, which you know whatever a lot of the spirit fingers. My wife was in show choir. She yeah, I can see I could see you and her like a pretty cool little like duo number. Um see, my bad knees just doing some straight gangster breakdance and stuff. I feel like your spirit fingers would be like just a little bit over underwhelming compared to most people. Have to shake my thumb really hard to make uh yeah, um yeah. If he's into that kind of stuff whatever, But but I do hope that he likes something to do with the outdoors. Um. And it is nice to finally get some good weather. I feel like it's been a crappy long winner here. Now finally we've had a few nice days and he's been able to get outside and do some fun outdoor stuff. So I'm gonna I'm gonna force a transition here. We don't mind. And so I see that, you know, I follow you on Instagram, I like a lot of people do. So I'm just like scrolling through and I say, oh, man, Mark is in Montana and he's shed hunting. That's cool. And then I specifically remember you saying, yeah, dude, when I go on my shed hunt, i'll let you know, and then you never let me know, and then I guess I didn't go shed hunting in Montana because I don't have a job anymore and I had to have some free time. That's that's a fair point. I uh, I'm really really horrible when it comes to this stuff because not only did you, apparently um get the shaft on the invite, but I also talked to two other friends of mine about going with me, well and multiple other friends of me, and all of them I completely flaked out on because because my schedule is so funky, um schedule. I know, you could just be that you're a bad friend. It could be them a bad friend. I'm also a bad communicator, so that I can admit to that. Um. But but I've been talking about doing this trip like original is going to do it the last week of March, and then I got first to the first week of April, and then I got pushed the second week April, and I never knew when I was gonna go, so dependent on um, both like family stuff going here and then like meetings that are gonna be happening at Mediator that I was going to be in Montana for. So I literally didn't buy a ticket to go and didn't know for sure when I was gonna go until three days before, about three days before it left, which is when I bought the ticket. So, yeah, one of these days will be funny, gets you and a couple of a couple of the other guys out and do do a big group trip out there in the spring because it is uh, it's pretty sweet. You saw you saw how I did? Yeah, yes, you just like became the scoop master. It looked like it's uh, the area makes makes it easier to do that. It's nuts, it's not. It's not like anything I've ever experienced. It's so much fun. There's no shed hunting as much fun as shed hunting in a Western state like this where there's a lot of deer. Um. So so what did I do. I flew out ah on Tuesday last Tuesday, and I specifically bought my ticket for Tuesday because I thought that Monday night, Michigan State would be playing in the National Championship Game. So I was like, I need to I need to be home to watch the National Championship Game with my wife because we've been watching the games together and enjoying that. And I'll fly out really earlier the next morning, really happy about it. Well, we lost in the first game of the Final four, so we didn't make it so at this pointing but um, but yeah, I flew up Monday, had meetings Monday Tuesday or meetings Tuesday Wednesday, and then Wednesday night scouted out three different pieces of public land that I've never been on before. UM, And so this is like half scouting future deer huns, half shed hunting. And you know, basically everything I've looked at and I've talked to you in the past about this, but basically all the spots I look for, whether it be in Montana or I did some like map looking at Wyoming in North Dakota to UM. I'm always looking for these rivers that run through these western states because there's this great cottonwood cover and Russian olives and alders and different crap down in these river bottoms that provide cover for white tails. So three public spots the first day, UM hiked a bunch. I don't know what the mileage was on that day because I wasn't tracking it, but UM, the first two spots account UM. Everywhere I went, though, there were already boots. So there are people that have walked everything, and that would end up being true everywhere except for the last place I went. So out of the let me think about this, I think five different sections of public land I checked. The first four had already been walked by someone. Yeah. Um, which I guess you know is to be expected, especially since this is kind of late when not late for most people, not necessarily late for out west though, because snow is just coming off, you know, in the last two weeks for a lot of people out there. Um. But kind of man, didn't see quite as much deer sign as I was hoping in the first spot. Second spot was okay, third spot looked really great. Um, but it looked like some a lot of people have been walking and it was kind of close to a decent sized town. Um. So I think that just there's a lot of people have been through there. Um. But I did find one shed on that first day, and that last spot has some potential I think for possibly hunting. Um. Next day I drove down, I was gonna go. Um. My original plan had been to head over to the general area where I've hunted the last two years and scott out some new spots there and then shed hunting the spots. I didn't know, but this big snowstorm pushed through last week. Did that hit you guys in Iowa? Uh? It came. It actually came to the north Uh, northern counties and then it hit uh, Wisconsin pretty hard. Gosha. Well, it was supposedly supposed to be hitting Montana really bad. I'm looking at the weather forecast and they're predicting like ten to fifteen inches of snow and these places I was going to go, and I had already bought the plane tickets. They're nonrefundable something in jeez, Like, what a waste of time. I was pretty upset. Um decided, while I'll just go down to this Wyoming spot. I wanted to scout in shed hunt. So I started driving to Wyoming and then I'm like an hour away from the border, and all of a sudden my head I remember, oh crap, Wyoming has a shed hunting season. Yeah, they don't open until May one. So I'm like, I just drove two hours in one direction to go to Wyoming, and now I realized I can't even pick up sheds there. Um. So fortunately two things Number One, the week before, I had on on Onyx and just like Way pointed, I don't know, fifteen different pieces of public land that looked good around the state. So I had just a whole bunch of potential spots to check out. And one of those spots happened to be just like five miles away from where I was, so at least I could go check that one out. So when I check that one out, and that one looks really good too. But literally, this is like the morning. It's a Wednesday or Wednesday, it's a no, it's a Thursday morning, and like ten o'clock, and there's someone out at this property scouting and shed hunting too, Like, who is out doing that on a Thursday morning except for somebody like me who doesn't have like a normal day job doing this kind of stuff. So this guy had like bow hunter and white tail stickers plaster all over his car. So I'm thinking, well, this isn't gonna go really well. Um, so started walking. But it's it's a really good looking chunk, really super thick, it's a food around it. I really liked it. It's a good spot. I think that could be worth hunting. Um tons of sign but only found one shed. But I think that could be, you know, because this person was out there and maybe a lot of other people have been out there too. So that was another one just good check the box. But the the big point of this is that fate intervened, and I got text message from one of the ranch owners out on my main area who said, hey, we didn't end up getting as much snow as they predicted. Um, we probably have two inches and the sun's out. It's probably be melting off by this evening or tomorrow. You might still want to come out, Okay. So that was a big positive. So I was like, you know what, Okay, this spot not that great. I'm just gonna turn and head back to this other main area. And so I made like the four and a half hour drive across to the original spot that I want to hit, and I had three different pieces of public land there I want to check out, and then some private land that neighbors it that I have permission on as well to walk, and the long story shore, and that is that first night one piece of public I don't want if I talked to you about this one or not last year. Um, but I hunt of this spot one day last year, just snuck in hunting edge to kind of observe and saw a nice box and saw a ton of deer. And the next two days I hunted that main spot and killed that buck. But this area you have to hike a mile and a half across these big, rolling, grassy plains and then dropped down a canyon to get to a river bottom. And so I go across this big plane. I get to the beginning of that canyon and I see some mule their way off the distance, and I'm like, oh, man, that's coolers, some mule he's out here. Um, I wonder if I could find a mule there ship. And I just as I'm thinking that my head, I step over the hill and I can see down this little I don't know what you call it, a little bull in the side of the hill, and right there is sitting a match set of great, big mule deer antlers, and I want to I want to mule there so bad. Dude. Yeah, I feel like this. This gave me like a little more of like an interest, like holding those in my hands. Just seeing that laying there was really really cool. I mean, I don't know how I could measure them, but I haven't measured them, but they're big. Uh. Interesting thing about mule deer antlers is they feel much lighter compared to white tail antlers, so like, these are big sheds. And then I held a smaller white tail shed in one hand, and then this big mule there shed on the other, and the white tail sheds is heftier, and then the mule dere shed. I don't know what that's about. I'm pretty sure it's not in my head. I'm like, it really feels like a dramatic difference to me. Um So, I guess it's the density or something. Um is different. Possibly maybe I'm sure there's somebody out there knows better than me. Um. But I found that pretty interesting. But yeah, match set big? What is it like? I guess would be a four point side but with big deep splits on the G two's um. So, that was awesome. I'm jealous, buddy, it was. It was cool. So let me ask you this was it a You said it was a big set, like a big match set. But like obviously mule deer antlers compared to white tail antlers are always kind of bigger. You know, I should I shouldn't say always bigger, but you know, you know what I mean? Like on average? Um, was it something that would be considered a shooter out there? Oh? I would definitely shoot it out there. Um So I'm not good alright, I've never tried to score mule the anilers, so like just by like looking at them, I don't know what I could tell you as far as like what the score would be. Um. But if I were to look at this set of anilers and I think, what kind of like white tail, if I was scoring as a white tail, um, I don't know, like a one sixty one seventy something like that, so a good one, like a good one like big frames. I didn't see a picture of you like doing the standard double fist, yeah, you know, like the right and your left hand and the right or whatever, you know, holding both andlers and doing the the pose. But I did see the pics, yeah, them on the ground, so how big they were. Yeah. The reason why there's no pictures of me in there with him is because I brought my good camera and tripod out there, and I thought, okay, I could do some like you know, self timer pictures like that, um. And then I went to go try to take a picture and I realized that I forgot to put an SD card in the camera, so I knew SD card out there, So the only pictures I could take with with my cell phone. UM, So that was a little disappointing. But yeah, they're they're big, Like they're the biggest antlers in my house, probably um, bigger than any white tail should I have. So that's pretty sweet. And then I found another shed down that river bottom. Got to scout that whole area out real well, which is nice since the one time I hunted it was just you know, sit on the edge. So I feel like that's a definite future option. And then, uh, then the next day, you know, I got to walk that area that I have hunted in the past and picked up twenty one sheds that day. I found sixteen before noon. Geez. So when you're on a roll like that, did you have to make a pile and then come back to it or were you able to attach them all to your backpack? I was able to fit them on my backpack. Um, but like, this is the first time ever while shed hunting that I actually had like sore shoulders from my backpack. Never in my life as I happened. But I literally had like really heavy backpack, which is a really nice problem to have. Um, it was crazy. It was just a situation where you know, and you heard about I mean, we've talked about how these hunts won. This area has a lot of deer and there's a good food source there, so there's a ton of deer betted around there. Um. And I don't think anyone the private land that this is kind of checkerboarded with that landowner had picked up a handful of out in his fields. Um. But that's basically it. So I had pretty much first DIBs on the on that private stuff there, and then the public is really hard to get to. UM. So I I doubt if anybody else tried to get in there. Um. And I what sucks is that because of just the time constraints, I only had one day in this area. Um that that first night I checked out the piece of public, but I had one day to hit this little section and then I had to leave Brighton earlier then the next morning cats a flight home, so I didn't even get to help cover it. There's a whole another section across the river that I didn't get to go to, and that's where me and Josh found most of our sheds last year. Last year, So there was probably as many or more sheds sitting over on this other side that that I was gonna sit there. So in the back of my mind it's like a little sad realization that there could be some just giant bone over there that's untouched. Because I talked to both this landowner and then another rancher, both said that they seemed to think that the bigger deer are on the other side of the river, and that kind of seemed to be the case because last year we found bigger sheds on that other side, and this year, since I didn't go to the other side, I didn't find as many of the bigger sheds. And then this neighbor also showed me some trail camera pictures that he had down that way of some much bigger deer than I've ever seen out there. Um Like, I don't know, high one forties, one fifty class and that's good for Montana, right, Yeah, that's really good for Montana. Um Like, out there you see like tons of like one thirty bucks, and then I think, you know, there are forties, fifties, sixties, etcetera. But but I haven't seen anything over one probably, But it's just it's just so much fun because you see, at least for a guy like me in Michigan who sees like one buck over a year, to see five of them in one night is just an absolute blast. Um. So that's why I really like it out there. But I feel like this year, uh, if I still hunt this area, which for a while I was thinking, yeah, you know, I'll try somewhere new, just for a new challenge, but this reinvigorated me to hunt there again. Um. But I think I want to be more picky. So I think this year I want to try hunting it and like just try to find one of these really big old ones. Um because the buck I killed last year was a nice one, definitely nice buck, but they were definitely older deer there. Um. I think I think I want to like be okay with like Okay, I'm not gonna try to get it done in four days and move on to the next state. I'm gonna plan on like seven days here and just like see what's out here, really see what's out here. Maybe run cameras. I've never run cameras out there before. UM, take it to the next level. Maybe try to hunt the other side of the river, which I've never done, um because I was worried about getting too close to the main betting rors over there. But maybe you can get away with it if I get smart about it. Um, So I'm intrigued by the by the options, and uh, let me let me ask you this question because it's just popped in my head. I've never hunted white tails in multiple states before, right, so in Iowa, I'm selective, you know. I like last year I shot my biggest buck ever, right so from an angler perspective, not from an age class. But when you're hunting multiple states, right and let's say, ob Slee, your standards for I will may be different than Michigan or Illinois or Ohio or in Montana or whatever you just talked about. You know, maybe going for a different higher class or guess you know, whether that's antlers or age class in Montana. Have you come to the point now where you feel okay with eating your tag in a state like Montana that does have so many deer and an average you're a good representation of that Montana. I guess age class and or antler size? Is that class? Buck? Yeah? I think I think that. Um. You know, the goal is definitely changed from me each year as I get you know, like the first year I went out there in Montana, it was like, I just want to see if I can kill Uh, a three and a half year old like representative buck on public land out here. And I was able to do that in day three and like when the first opportunity came, I took it. And then and the next year I did try to be a little bit pickier um and didn't end up seeing anything that really was what I was looking for, so passed on some decent bucks. And then last year I kind of had I kind of went back to the the year one goal, which is our let's just get let's just get a nice buck out here, had that experience, try this because this is um a spot I hadn't killed one. Yeah, I was able to do that last year. But now I've got two years in this area. I have two years with the shed hunting and scouting. I know a lot about I know the area, I know what I know what's out there. Like at first you didn't really know what was out there. So he kind of thought, Okay, it looks like a three or four year old you know one twenties uh, you know one ties one thirty tip buck, Like that's probably like a good Like that's one of the good bucks here. That's a great buck to take. It would think used to be representative of an upper age class buck. But now that I know that there actually are older and bigger deer there, I kind of like the idea of just like seeing what could happen. So yeah, I would be okay eating my tag um because I kind of like the idea of just the mystery of what I might be able to possibly find. And I'd like to hunt seven days straight there and see it and try it out and figure some stuff out. I think, I like I Originally the first year I hunted there, I thought, well, I might be good with like one or two or three hunts in this little spot, and then I'll probably be blown out. Now I know because of some access with some ways I can get in and out that I can hunt it more than that without spooking the deer. So I'm just figuring stuff out a little bit more each year. So now between that and now also having seen some of the antlers that we picked up that tell me that there are actually some much bigger, older deer out here, and then you know, seeing pictures of pictures from the neighbor that also give me indicators like hey, there's this whole other class that you haven't seen yet. Um, and I'd like to kind of push myself to try to find that deer. That's just like a fun next step for me as I'm trying to you know, we always talk about how like we'd like that next challenge, and so I really enjoyed the challenge of figuring out a new property, which I did for a couple of years. Now I'm thinking if I'm going to hunt the same little section again, I want to push myself in a different way, and I think that different way will be trying to find that next step up the ladder as far as challenge and and the deer I'm after. So I think that's what I'm gonna try. Um, And I think it's possible, it'd be it'd be fun to give it a shot. So that's from my head that at least we'll see, Yeah, that's awesome, due but yeah, I mean, my my goals are definitely different for each state. You know, we've we've talked, you know, my Michigan goals for for a long time. We're like to kill three and a half year old here in Michigan because those are really hard to come by in spots I hunt. And then the last couple of years is like, Okay, you know you've killed some of those. Let's try to kill a four year old or older. And that's still where I'm at here. But then when I hunted Ohio different, when I hunted an Iowa different, Montana was different, and I was changing. Um, you know, I think when you come and hunt in Michigan, I think it'll be the same way. It'll have one set of goals and that might change one two hunt in Michigan three or four years in a row. Right now, Hey, I think I think we're gonna have to look back at that verbal contract because when I get when I quit, right when I quit my job, I'll come in hunt Michigan. But I got laid off, So you're really we're gonna have to get some lawyers involved here. I feel, oh my god, you're getting tangled loving the semantics. Then right right, well here, let me let me tell you. Let me just ask you this, Mark, and I have to play that card because I'm going on at ELK hunt this year. I'm going on like like if all things go right, like there is a chance I don't go on any honest state hunts, depending on uh, you know, the finance and the finances now, right, But there's a chance I go on a elk hunt. There's a chance I go on a mule deer hunt, which is all the only way I'm not going on these hunts is fine. The finances, right, I got approval from the wife, right, It's it's game on for both. And adding a another trip at this point would be I think detrimental to my relationship. But let's talk about one thing. Let's talk about integrity. Let's talk about let's talk about it. Well, just know that the offers open maybe next year. Um, when you got things lined up, we can try to work on trying to find you a spot out here to hunt. And uh, it's not you know, it's not Iowa. But you're gonna have a good time. Still, I don't care like obviously Iowa has a special place in my heart, but I don't care like I don't care about antlers, right, So I'm I'm all about the experience. So, yes, I live in Iowa. I have the luxury of potentially shooting a deer with big ant or it's an older age class. But if I walked into a Michigan public, a piece of public on Michigan and had the opportunity at you know, hunter and ten five inch deer that I that gave me a perfect shot at during a running gun. That's an awesome experience as well, right, and uh, I think I would you know, I would you know? I don't know. I find the experience of everything more than the end result, right, which is you know, potentially hanging in an awesome deer on your wall or whatever. I'm glad that that's where your head's at because that is a very important quality to foster. As a Michigan deer hunter had told be very focused on the experience because the big ones will occasionally they show up, it's not too often, so I gotta you gotta just enjoy the grind. That's uh, that's what's all about in Michigan. So, speaking of experiences, I want to talk about turkey hunting because I saw that you had a hell of experience this past weekend too. Huh yeah, So I'm gonna do a little bit of self promotion here, all right, and well, and that is so we I ended up bringing a camera guy along with me. I know you took a very uh seductive shot of you fondling a beer bottle in your mouth, and that's this picture, and I really want to do some photoshop work on it. I can send him back to but that's neither here nor there. Continue get your mind out of the gut. Or do you think I'm the dirty one. You're You're just as dirty dude, professional photographer. You took him out there with you? Why did you do that? So anyway, like I'm making this short film, right, I'm gonna make a film. Uh well, well he is, actually, but I hired him to do it, and uh, it's gonna It's about this tradition that we have every year. Right April is Dirty Hunting season, but it's kind of more than that because it's basically a family gathering. So yeah, we do go turkey hunting, but we also play cards, we eat a lot of food, we go fishing, we play outside when the weather's nights, and it's just it's just an awesome tradition that we've started. And as every year, I feel like more and more people are coming over to my mom's house, mom and stepdad's house, and it's become something bigger than just turkey hunting. It's like it's a tradition now, and that's what this short film is gonna showcase and uh uh, it's gonna be coming out. I don't know when, probably May, June sometime or whatever. But it's it's like a representation of what you know, Like hunting is awesome, killing a turkey or a deer is awesome, but there's more to it than just that, right, And I wanted to have this film showcase that. But I'm telling you the first day Friday, it was a little windy and uh, we went out to us spot that usually produce and I'm telling you, man, and this is you and your wife meeting my wife and a camera guy. Uh, we get up there the sun, you know, we this was the first year we didn't use a blind. Was straight off the ground, just for better you know, filming purposes get a lot more because it's difficult to hunting a blind, I feel like or filming a blind, I feel like you'll lose something. And so anyway, we walking through the cattle pasture. The first thing we noticed there's no cattle in it, and I'm like, okay, this is awesome because typically the turkeys, if there's cattle in that pasture, they are deeper in the timber. Right, Well, this time, there was no there was no cattle, right, So okay, awesome. We walked through the pasture. We get to this fence line. It's starting to get to the point where, you know, I look at my wife. I say, hey, they're gonna start gobbling. In about five ten minutes, we hear, you know, five ten minutes later, we hear a couple of gobbles in the distance. I pulled out the slate, call you know, stuff gobble like next ridge over and it was like a real small like a smaller ridge to where they could easily pitch down onto this ridge, the ridge that we were at, and uh, you know, he gobbled three times. I'm like, okay, here's where we're gonna set up. Set up. I get down and uh, you know, the camera guys behind me. I got my wife sitting to the left of me. I'm sitting next to her. Put the decoys out. You know, we're situated. He gobbles, uh two more times, and I'm like, okay, this sucks. We gotta move because there's all this all this thickness, and I think he was gonna come to the extreme left of us. That's like he's still on the tree at this point, so I don't know, but we had we had a quick move. So I loft the decoys where they were at. I moved us all I don't know, twenty yards to the left, a little bit more to where the timber was a little bit, opened up, and sat down. You know. I started hitting the slate decoy again and uh, this the slate call again. Yeah, it's heavy. It's a heavy decoy. Hit the slate call again and uh, the next gobbilie did. He was on the ground. And then I started really making the slate call go quiet again and h his head popped up. He walked to one of the the yards. My wife shot him. I mean it was the one of the easiest fastest turkey kills I've ever been a part of. Like I've killed some birds that have flown in and they've strutted out and then they worked their way in. But this bird flew down, walked up and got shot. I mean, it would happen so fast. I think I think she killed this bird at six ten or is this her? This is her second bird, right, No, this just like her fifth six geez up. Because she started turkey hunting in two thousand and eleven. That was the first year. The first two years were just horrible weather. Then in two thousand and thirteen that was her first ever turkey, and then she went on her role for like three years. She killed you know, three turkeys in a row. Then the one year she was oh man, nine months pregnant in the blind, it didn't work out. The next year was bad weather again and she had something she had to do, so I got my bird, and then she killed another one last year, and another and then one this year. So yeah, I think she's sitting at five five birds since two thousand and eleven, so that's a that's a pretty good success rate. Yeah, that's pretty good. So what did she think about? She had a good time or was it too fast? No, she loves it. She loves the fact that we can go, we can slam a turkey, and then we can go to this local diner, we can drink coffee and eat breakfast, and then she doesn't have to get up early anymore for the trip. And then it's just like me, right. And then later that afternoon, my stepdad killed one on the farm he was hunting, and uh, and then and then it's just really relaxing from there, because yes, I wanted to kill a turkey on camera for you know, for the film, but I don't care like when it comes to turkey, and I think me and you have discussed this before. It's just it's secondary hunting, right, I don't care pressure pressure exactly. I want to be successful, but if it doesn't, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. And so we went out the rest of the day. Nothing not one gobble on the entire farm. The rest of the day. Um. Day two was more of the same. Heard some gobbles initially off the roost, and it was one of those days where it was brilliant out right, no cloud and typically that gets the you know, get some hammering throughout the you know, throughout this valley that I hunt. And man, we didn't hear. We didn't hear what we thought I was gonna hear. And uh the then the entire day just bouncing around left and right, bouncing around and uh, no gobbles, no encounters. And then it was Sunday morning. We ended up going back to one of the original spots and uh, all you know, got these birds goblin really close into the Uh these birds goblin really close. We got set up and they were roosted on another farm, but typically they worked their way up into the property that I could that, you know, I can hunt, and uh man, this tom pops up his tail fan. His tail fan pops up, and I'm like, that's on. He's coming. He's gonna come towards us. And he's at about sixty yards. And I hunt with a twenty gauge, so I'm not gonna take a real long shot. I think my max would probably be thirty five forty yards with a twenty gauge, no choke on it, nothing right, just a regular gun. And uh uh then I see a handhead pop up, and then I see another hand head pop up, and he lost interest in me really fast, and uh he was, you know, held up at about sixty yards. I kept calling, and it felt like the more I kept calling it annoyed the hints, and they're just like, oh God, let's get out of here, you know. And they left and the tom went with him, and then, uh, you know, we bounced around a little bit more and we're walking up this fence line and there was this strutter pops up right and right in the screen pasture, right on this fence line. We were walking up and uh, so I instantly dropped to the ground, crawled over to this tree, put the decoys out, crawled back to the fence line, and you can just barely see his fan. And I started calling and he starts gobbling, and uh again, I think he was with a hen. And as I started to call, he worked his way in and then he was gobblin goblin, responding to everything. And then he just worked his way away, which tells me he was with hands. Right. Um made a couple more attempts and that's all she wrote. Dude, So I ended up, you know, I ended up not harvesting a turkey this turkey season. And but I'll tell you what it was fun, man. I love I love those days just where they're you know, where you're in the action, they're talking, they're coming your way, like you were mentioning off off the roofs. There's nothing I like better than hearing that first bird off the roofs in the morning. Um, now, did you get to hear your favorite sound in the turkey? Was? Because you told us in the past years what your favorite sound is in the turkey? Was that favorite moment? Um? Well, you will you do Hey, do you know what I'm talking about? And p will you demonstrate again my favorite moment in the Turkey woods? Yeah? You Every year I asked you bring this up, your favorite thing that happens. Well, it's a sound, it's not a come on really, Oh my god, I'm I'm dropping the ball here. I can't do it nearly as good as you, but I'll give you. Like the first sound I got it, Yeah, it was too windy. We couldn't. We didn't hear it, you know. So and that Tom, only that Tom that came up from Uh for my wife to shoot. He just came in. He came in to a full strut one time and then came out of it, and it was windy, so we we couldn't hear it, right, Um. And then the other times, you know, throughout the weekend, we didn't get close enough to hear it. But yeah, I do love that sound. I do love it. Let me hear your But there you go. There's probably some really serious turkey hunters out there listening to this going. That guy is such a dip shit. So when I was in Montana last week, um, there was a turkey calling contest at a bar one night, that I went to, and that was pretty funds to hear everyone do their different things. Each contestant had to do a yelp, they had to do per they had to do like a series of different calls, um like kind of like demonstrate a whole run of how they would try to call in a hen and then they had to do a gobble yeah. Um, and there were some there was a couple people were really good, and then there's a few folks that it made me feel okay about my calling. Um, I can't use the mouth call period, you know. I couldn't until last year. And last year I was like, you know what, I just need to figure it out, um, and I'm so glad I did. I would recommend trying to trying to figure because it it is way I think the sounds you can make are way nicer. And then the biggest thing is just like if you're hunting solo, you know, it was I always it was always a challenge trying to work the slate call and then hold the gun. You know, sometimes you just want to make a couple of final calls, but you can't do that while you're in position to get a shot, because if you move you're busted. So the fact that I can make those final couple of calls while you know, holding the gun and not moving that, uh, that makes a big difference. So you should pick us pick up a diaphragm, give a shot. Yeah, I have one. I just don't use it. I don't. I don't know. You're right, I need to try because last year I was uh trying to call a turkey and and it it came in, it read the script and then I set my I guess what they call it, the striker down and it slid off my pants and it landed on the slate and it made like a click noise, and then the tom went and then he with the other direction. You yeah, those little things. It's funny, you know, when it comes to that diaphragm. I remember I had one and I kept trying. It just sounded like crap and I couldn't get it to sound right. Um. But then like every couple of years, I buy a couple more and like fill with them and just never could quite get it. But last year, I just remember I had a bunch of different versions of last year. I was like, I'll just keep on trying all these different ones until I find one that sounds good and then just kept messing with the positioning of it in my mouth. Um, do you use Do you use a diaphragm call when you're el cutting who? You figured out how to use one of those? Yet? Uh No, I don't. I personally don't use a diaphragm. I use handheld Okay, So with any of these diaphragm mouth calls, it's like it's really hard to figure it out by taking like what someone tells you, Like they'll tell you how to do it, or you'll watch a video, and it's like it's really hard to translate that to what it actually feels like in your mouth, until like you just mistakenly happened upon the right feeling, and then once you get the right feeling one time, then it's like, oh yeah, it's easy, now I get it. But it's just something you kind of have to stumble upon yourself. So the way I finally did it is I just had him in my truck and whenever I was driving, I would just toss one in my mouth and just like screw with it and try to make different noises and move it in different and forward and backward of my mouth in different positions until it finally like clicked, and that would be kind of my best advice is to just try that. Like I think most of us know what it's supposed to sound like, if you've heard turkeys, if you've watched the turkey and calling videos, that kind of stuff. It's just a matter of figuring out the right way to have it in your mouth and to to make that motion and draw the air through your mouth to figure it out. So just screw it, and I think you'll figure it out eventually. But it's it's cool once you can do it, sounds good. I need to I just needed straight up practice. Yeah, it's uh, it's it takes a little bit of practice, but it's fun once you do. We're Um. Last weekend, I had my family down for dinner. Um came down the business for the day and we're sitting on the deck behind my house and there's a bunch of woods and stuff behind how and we're sitting there eating hamburgers and stuff, and then all of a sudden, I heard of Gobel was the first gobble I heard the spring all spring, and I was like so pumped. It's like, oh my gosh, there's a gobbler up there, like, hold on one second, guy. So while everybody's eating dinner, I ran into the house, grabbed my call, ran back out to the deck and started trying to yelp it in. Um didn't bring the burden, but it got me really excited. So our season opens one week from today, so I'm excited to get out there. And uh, I'm also gonna hunt um South Dakota this year for turkeys. Yeah. Um, I got invited on a group hunt with um Ben O'Brien from the Hunting Collective and Spencer you know, Spencer Spencer new Heart for media there. Um. And then it sounds like I don't know if it's all official, but from what I hear, supposedly Randy Newburgh is coming down with his group and the folks in the hunting public and suppose it was gonna be like a seventeen person group out there all turkey hunting. Wow. So yeah, I kind of just putting that on. I don't know who's organized kind of expenses organizing it. And Sam sohold you know Sam, yeah him yea. So Sam's gonna be out there too. So those are the two residents South Dakota's so they're at least helping organize like where we should camp and the general areas that we should explore. I guess, um, So I just got kind of I just got pulled in and Ben's doing like a turkey tour, going to like a bunch of different states. So I'm gonna come along with him for a few days in South Dakota and maybe Nebraska and then do some meetings in Montana. So that'll be, Yeah, that'll be fun, little extra turkey hunting for me. So hey, if you see any big mule there or well big body mule there, you let me know where the exact location that you see them at, and then I'm gonna go like scout that I'm gonna try to talk my wife into a two or three day summer you know, maybe early mid lay, I don't know when. Summer tour tour, yavacation trip little yeah, MANI vacation where it's just me and her. We go out like, hey, baby, I got I got this awesome idea. We're gonna go out to South Dakota and I'm gonna scout some mule deer and you can come with me. And She'll be like that's dumb. I don't want to do that. Bad Lands National Park is right there. That is beautiful. And then the Black Hills. You can see Mount Rushmore. That's like a nicon. You gotta go see Rount Rushmore so you can say this is like a sightseeing trip. Black Hills are beautiful. Um, you gotta do oh gosh, the Needles Highway or the Needles Scenic Byway or something like that. It's like a scenic drive through the Black Hills. Um. I actually haven't done it, but several of my friends and my wife did it. And there's mountain goats. I think there's big horn sheep um, beautiful terrain, a lot of critters that would be a good little spy. Have to go check out with her too. And then uh, That's tower isn't too far past that right, that's not too far away yet, it's a little further west. I would get us like an hour hour and a half west maybe. Um, And yeah, that looks amazing too, So you could you could hit all that stuff right in that little area. That's absolute quality family trip. Have you ever been to Death Valley? Uh? No, I'm not. I don't think I don't think that's a quality family trip. Pretty hot, pretty hot, and desolate? Um, why do you want to go there? I don't know. It's uh, it's a it's a landmark in the United States that I want to visit. Yeah it is. It is hot, and it is a landmark, so I'll give you that. Um. But yeah, I think it'd be a good idea if you to try to get some scouting time out there, and if I do see any good sign or anything, because we will be all in that area, then I know you want to go. Um. I'll be keeping you posted, sweet buddy, Sweet Um, can I run my deer hunting methodology by you? Yeah? I want to hear this because it sounds like a crossword puzzle, like you're gonna say something and I'm gonna have to figure out something else, like a little clue that I need to find another word for. Or it could just be really simple and you're just trying to sound smarter than what you really are. So that's typically all I've ever done is just trying to sound smarter than I than I really am. So yeah, that's what I'm doing here. No, but I was, I don't know when I like coined this idea in my head, um, But I'm trying to like flesh it out into like a a deer hunting I'm calling I'm calling a methodology. I don't know if it's a methodology or a theory or like a strategy, um, but a way to kind of simplify the decision making process around choosing when and where to hunt. And so I've been kind of doing this in my head and I started to like realize it's kind of like a thing. And I tried to explain this to Cody to Quisto like a month or two ago, and I don't know if I made any sense. So I wanted to like rethink it, explain to you and try to get your thoughts, like does this make sense? Is this a way to help people understand this stuff? And this is this a good way to think about stuff? Um? Because if so, it might be like a good way especially for like new folks that are trying to get into deer hunting, especially if they're trying to kill mature bucks, if that's like the step that they're at now, this might be a helpful way to approach it. So I'll explain this to you and then I want your feedback, Okay, And This is something that I started kind of doing this past year. I started like more and more the way hunted was this assumption to truth methodology. So basically what I do before each hunt now is I have all the information that we've collected, you know, through scouting, through trial cameras, through past years observation, like, there's all these different data points, right, and all that data will lead you towards what you think is maybe like the most likely scenario to play out. Let's say it's an evening hunt. We'll have a most likely scenario, so we'll make an assumption. So the assumption, let's say, on this hypothetical night is given with this one direction, given this October one, and there's a good food source here, and I know there's a good betting area there, and um, you know I know this thing and that thing. I'm going to assume that the deer, based on this previous knowledge, is better in Spot X, and I'm gonna assume that he's going to go to Spot why. And I'm gonna assume this specific path I think he's gonna take. Now, in past years, I would think through that as like one possibility, and then I would think, well, then there's this other possibility he might do this other thing, and then there's another possibility he might do this third different thing, And then you would like try to set up in some spot or you would head in kind of hoping that one of these things would work. Um. But what I found is that when you go with all these different hypotheticals, you don't set up as well, and you don't think through things as well, and you don't execute as well as if you were to believe all those things were truth. So let me rephrase the scenario then in this other way. So instead of being assumption, you believe that, you change that assumption to a truth. So now you say, okay, if I thought the very most likely scenario was that the buck was bed in spot X, and then he's gonna go to Spot why, I'm gonna flip the script of my mind. And now let's just say it's true he is bad at in spot X, he is going to Spot why. If I'm going to assume that to be true, what am I gonna do? So? If I know that's true, I have to make sure that I access in this very specific way, because if my wind blows in that one very specific place I'm screwed up. I'm gonna set up just this very particular perfect spot for that one single scenario because I know he's X, and I know he's going to Why I'm going to have to be perfectly crawling up in my tree stand because I know he's here. I know he's an X, I know he's only eight yards away. If I screw up, if I make one noise, I'm gonna spook that dear. If I was just thinking, well, that's one of the possibilities that he might be there, maybe I would have gotten little bit lax with my access route, or maybe I would have been like, well, I can screw up the tree and if I make a little noise, that's not that big of a deal, because yeah, he might be in Spot X, but he might also be in spot why, he might also be in spots he might be blah blah blah. The point of this all being that when I've tried to set up a hunting scenario with a whole bunch of different possibilities in mind, I set up in a spot where it's not perfect or I'm not doing the perfect thing for any one of those possibilities. It's just kind of like an okay, set up for all these different possibilities, but when I go to switch my assumption to a truth, I set up for that one possibility. But I'm perfectly set up for that one possibility. And I think that when you're targeting mature bucks, you are going to be more likely to have success when you're set up for the one possibility perfectly, because when those few opportunities come about to get a shot of a chure buck, you kind of needed all to be perfect for that thing to work out. So I started operating this past season where before the hunt would go out, before the day, I would think, okay, Like for example, when I was hunting Frank, this is what I started doing. There was those days in early November where I'd seen him the night before with the dough and I thought, well, he might be still with that dough in this thicket. Um. In past years, I would have thought, well, he might be there, but he could be anywhere. And it's a real pain in the butt to to not go through that little thicket because that's usually what I have to walk by to get to most of my other spots. UM. So I mean, the odds are he could be anywhere. So in the past I might have said it, I'm just gonna get to my stand fast, only go past that thicket, because yeah, he might be there, but there's an eighty percent chance he could be somewhere else. I just gotta get to my stand fast, get up, and then whatever happened happens. But this year I said, no, I'm gonna say that that's the truth. He is in that thicket. That's the most likely option. Even though maybe it's twenty chance he's there, it's still the very most likely option. I'm gonna assume he's in there. And since I know he's in there right now at five in the morning, I have to go the extra mile around the entire property to access the other way because I know I'll spook him if I go through the easy way. And that's what I did all this season was this, take the assumption, change it to a truth, and then plan everything around that truth. Now, yeah, it's not gonna end up being true most of the time, but that one or two times a year when your assumption is truth and you plan perfectly for that truth, it's perfect and you get the kill. That is like this theory bons around my head I don't know if I'm articulating it clearly or not, But what are your thoughts about everything that just explained there? I'm following you first and foremost, I'm following you. However, I think that is it's a good early season methodology, But when you come into the rut and you throw chaos into everything, I don't think that would necessarily work as well. This is just me, you know, in my opinion, but from an early season, pre rut type of UM, I don't know methodology. I really do think that, uh, that that would work. I mean, you know, if you if if you're confident in your decision making and your confident in your access and your confident in a Buck's core range, I feel that that would work and and and and I think it can be applied to the rut too, because because obviously, like the one single thing you believe isn't going to be the truth all the time, but it's more so like you have to you have to look at all your data and you have to pick the highest possibility because if you if you it's just like a job or or just like a hobby, like if you try to do anything, if you try to do like fifteen different things, you're not gonna do any one of them really good. So you can be a jack of all trades and be like decent at a bunch of stuff, or you can decide, I'm going to focus on this one thing and be the best damn person in the world at him. And I think that if you start focusing on like being the best damn thing at this one specific option during a hunt, and it could even be November one, obviously stuff is not going to go exactly that way. But you've got to say, what's the most likely scenario, and so let's say during the rut it is I believe the most likely scenario is that there's gonna be a buck coming in to check this deal betting area. And I think the very most likely thing is that he will come down wind of this specific betting area. So that's gonna be my truth, and I'm gonna set up perfectly for that one scenario. Um. I think that puts you in a better position to get shots. And and of course there's other things that dear that these deer might do. It might not work up just the way you imagine it. But my theory is just that if you set up and think about those things like it just seems like if you go into it thinking, well, he might be here, he might not, you start hedging and you start getting lazy, and you start doing things because you think like, well, yeah, my my wind might blow into this area for a little bit, but I don't know if he's there, might be, might not, I don't know. Um, But if you go into it thinking I'm going to assume it to be truth that he is there, so I cannot screw this ship up, I think that at least at least for me as this is like it's really helped me. I think I think the whole point of this is this something that I've started doing in my head. It's helped me to like to do what we always talk about, which is like pay attention to the details, don't cut corners, focus on those small little things. When I start changing these maybes to like it's true in my mind and saying, hey, you gotta operate as if he's right there. You've got to operate as if this is gonna happen, just like that scenario you're you're hoping happens. You gotta think it's it's gonna happen, and so do everything just right for that scenario. I think by doing that, it's like kind of flipped another switch for me. Um, and so that that this is this new thing going on in my head. I'm curious to hear, curious to hear if that makes sense to other people too, um, And it might be something that I'll continue to like talk about through this year as I apply it, and maybe we'll see maybe now that I'm starting to like articulate it, like put this thing. It used to be just what I was doing, but now I'm trying to like explain it, and maybe as we go into this season, maybe as we try to like look at different hunts throughout the year, I will talk through this and it might not make sense maybe as we get into the rut this coming year or whatever. But I'm kind of curious. I'm kind of just curious to see what how this actually works, if it's something that you know, other people could replicate, if it's useful to think about. I think the reason why the only reason why I pick a bright up. I'm sure you get this too. We get tons of questions from people, like tons of questions, like giving you a scenario and then asking you what should I do? Where should I hunt? Or how should I get into this spot? Or you know, what should I do in this scenario? Everyone's always wondering what should I do in this scenario? What should I do this Saturday when I go in for this hunt? And so like, how can we help simplify that decision making process or or help like, UM put a framework around. There's there's no like decision making framework out there for people to help understand how to make these decisions. UM. It's always kind of like, well, think about all these different things and trust your gut and then go do something. UM. I'm just kind of curious to myself if there's a way we could like put a set of steps in place to help new people do it, and this might be this might be a way to start doing this. So I don't know, I might be I might be sparking up crazy tree here, but well, if you got time, I have been thinking about somewhat of a methodology. It's a little bit different through this year as well. Okay, let's hear do you have a long, fancy name for uh It's called the Dan Johnson look at dots on a map and play connect the dots method to killing big deer that has a certain ring to it as well. Now I just made that up. I just made that up. Is that like a name that has some meaning behind it? Or is this just to make you sound dumber than you actually are? You know, no, it has meeting. Okay, So I always am looking at trail camera data, right, but I'm never looking at I'm always looking at a micro level like, Okay, this deer showed up at this point, but I'm never comparing that to where let's say, and I'm just gonna use my buck for example from this year, because what made the decision for me to hunt where I hunt on that night is because I have trail camera data and historical data where I found his shed, where I got trail camera pictures of him, and I literally hunted right in the middle of that on a on a really good terrain feature, and that is where I killed this deer. Right, So that opened my mind up too. Man, I'm only I'm looking at this almost two macro, right, I'm looking at it where only where a specific trail camera is and it's the latest intel. But what I need to be doing, So what I did was I took that information and I transferred it over to Gnarly Charlie this year, right and and last year. So every trail camera picture I had of Gnarly Charlie throughout the entire farm, on this map, I put a dot. I put a dot where he was in the summer. I put a dot where he was late season, during the rut, October, whatever. So I have this these dots. Then what I did was I took a line for every dot, and I collect I I connected it to another line. Right. So now what you have is this shape, right, and inside of the shape you have where all these lines cross. Right. So it's kind of like when you're flying on a plane and there's like the map that shows you all the different connecting like from one airport to a different airport, you know what I'm talking about. So it's kind like that something like that. So now you imagine you have like I'm I'm looking at one, two, three, four, five, six, I'm looking at six dots on a map. Okay, all these lines are connected, there's no there's no shape. Right. Then, what I'm doing is where all these lines cross in the center. It's kind of like a core area, right, and that doesn't mean he's living in that core area because but what I'm looking at is I'm looking in this area. I'm looking for the main terrain features that I feel are conducive to deer movement. Right, So when the time comes for me to hunt this deer, I'm not going to focus on anything outside of that shape, right, because he hasn't shown up. He hasn't shown up ever throughout the entire year outside of that on any other trail cameras that I have. So I'm gonna now I'm bringing it back to a macro level, after I've collected all this data over the years, I'm saying that the odds of him outside of this area are lower than what they are inside of this area. And as you get down to where more lines start to cross in theory, he's going to be in that area more than the other areas. Right. So now I'm looking at the topographic map and I'm saying, here is terrain features, here are betting areas. Inside of this shape is where I need to be focusing on killing. And the this is only this only really works for when you're targeting specific bucks. Right, You're using this trail camera data to and and applying it to the terrain features on a map, and you're saying I have the best odds hunting this particular spot. And then you go a step further similar to what you said. Now you start breaking it down into individual scenarios and you say, Okay, on a west wind, I need to hunt here. On the east wind, here, south, north, whatever, right, or if you're saying that, okay, here here is the highest likelihood of where this deer is living, where he's traveling throughout the year, I need to find access into this particular location for every single wind direction. Right. Sometimes it's gonna be harder, sometimes it's gonna be easier. But I feel that if you really look at a core area, you're gonna know a lot more about this deer. And then you start, you know, you start getting into that area and hell, maybe he's there, maybe he's not. But guess what you hunt in this and your access you hunt in that specific area on those specific terrain features where deer like to move, you're gonna run into them over a period of time. That's that's my thought process. I like it, um, I like that, and I love this just kind of stuff, these kind of conversations and this strategy is I mean, this is why white tails just it never gets old from me. Absolutely love this stuff, Like I wish you were over here right now. I wish we could be looking at a map together, like I want to, like I want to see your dots on the map and like think through this strategy with you. Yeah. The crazy part is is I'm looking at a I'm looking at a specific ridge right now on this map that I have that I my mouth is literally watering to get a stand in it. And I've never thought of it before until I started thinking about how do you use ridges to bed, how they use you know, how they're traveling through this property to food sources. And it's one of those things where dude, I'm gonna be like if I if I apply, I'm gonna apply this method this year to hunt, you know, this year if he if he survives, right, if if he shows up on trail cameras this year, I have enough data now to where I'm just going like, all right here he is, let's let's give this a try. I'm looking at this one specific ridge where I feel, man, this just like I want to get in there right now, you know, what I mean, Um, now, what time of year do you think about when you think you're gonna start getting after him? Because last year I think if I remember, you took your first stab at him in like mid to late October, is that right? Yes? It was mid October UM based off some historical you know it was. It was based off one trail cameras historical data. So I it back there to that one particular spot, which after after I look at that particular spot, right, it's outside of that the shape, right, So um, you know, maybe he was coming off of a ridge, but maybe he wasn't, because that was outside of all the places that I got trail camera pictures of him. Right, So I went in and if I'm gonna if I'm using the new method, I would have never hunt there, hunted there? So what are you So you're gonna focus within your your core shape that you're building, But what about when do you think? Have you have you thought through like already the scenario you you envision as as how you're gonna take that first StEB Are you gonna look at that same date range again? Are you gonna wait for weather or are you gonna go just rut focus on him. What where's your head at right now? Yeah, it's probably gonna be late October this year, just because I'm gonna be going on this If if I do go on this mule deer hunt, it's gonna be first to one of the first weeks of October. So I won't even probably step foot on this farm until the third or fourth week in October. It's not a bad time to start, that's uh, right, when they're getting a little lancy. Yeah, absolutely, And uh, I don't know, like you've been thinking about your style and it's like I can't get it's isn't it crazy that we're trying to You know, a lot of guys don't think of hunting as the like in depth strategy where you're using, you know, like a scientific method to break down like animals, movements and thought processes. But you look at you look at all the trails that are on your farm. There there for a reason. Every footprint is there because that dear feels safe in that particular moment, right and that now is great because it's wet in the timber and I was out there turkey hunting and all I was doing was looking at these trails and seeing how they intersect. I would love someday if I had some extra time to put on my GPS map on on X right and just walk these trails through the timber, you know, only going where there was a deer trail and looking at that data and imagine that data on top of a map of what I just said. Holy cow, now you're looking at like pitch points. Now you're looking at um like can like I would assume that a uh trail down to the mud is just a more traveled trail, and then you add that to where you found shed antlers and you add that to where it kind of gives you a heat map of deer activity. Yeah. What you can do is you go out there with your dots on your map for your where your trailcamera pictures have been and either have do this on your map or even better, do in person look at those points in the map and then try to find on when you're actually there on the ground, try to find the trail or the best to feature, like how they would how a deer would actually get from dot number one to dot number two, see the actual find the actual trail or the ridge or the pinch point that he would have to go through to get between those two and then map that so then you have, Okay, here's all the dots where I know he actually was. And then here, based on what I saw on the ground, are the actual trails that get between A and B. Or here's the actual pinch points between A and B. And then having all that would be then like that next level, we should be pretty sweet. I think if we apply. If we took that, and then you then, like you described, go in there one day, have that perfect scenare in your head, take the assumption of what you believe to be true based off of all that data, make it a truth in your mind. You now have the Dan Johnson dots on a map, connecting them to kill a deer, assumption to truth deer hunting methodology for two. And there you go. You're all set for the year. Man, I feel a second coming on Mark. Yeah, that might be the plan. It's just it's like, we go so deep. It's like a thousand pages. It's like data that people are just like, Okay, man, you've literally taken the fun out of deer hunt and no one has read it but you and man, oh but I would be fun. Um I think that's probably good place for us to wrap it up. Man, Um, I know you've got stuff to get to, and I do want to bring up one email I got um really quick before we go. This is just like a really nice thing for me to make me feel okay about my life and my choices and the way I decided to to move forward as a as a young adult. Um. This I'm not even gonna name the guy, will just call him R. He emailed and he had a whole long email about different things he did and how he's appreciated the stories we've shared in the podcast and how he's learned things and so on and so forth, and he ended it by saying, quote, I also had a Poopa tech this year in the stand and I had a good chuckle with your stories as I can relate how over comma mine did not end as cleanly as yours. I hope that. I hope he puts that out. If he's listening, please go to itune and leave that as a reveal. Oh yeah, so with that, my buddy, Uh, let's uh, let's wrap it up. Thanks for thanks for jumping on. Man. Absolutely talk to there and that will do it for to his episode. Appreciate your listening. Hope you enjoyed our little BS session here. It is good for Danna to get to catch up and hopefully feel you guys in a little bit on what is going on in our lives as we head into the summer, hopefully someday here soon. It feels like we just went from winter straight into the end of spring, but I'm ready for all the great things that late spring and summer and tail. Obviously, from what you just first discussed, you know that we're already thinking a whole lot about deer hunting season and everything that comes with that too. So thanks again and until next time, stay wired to hunt to dat out of Gun.

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