00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number four of The Hunting Collective. I am been O'Brien coming to you from a table at my house in Austin, Texas with a beer in hand and a phone in front of me. Today we are calling the great and powerful, the one and only John Dudley. I wish John was here. He was supposed to be here, but he couldn't. At the last minute. Something came up, so I just gave him a call and we did it that way. Why should you want to listen to John Dudley, Well, the reasons are many. John is a technical expert in archery. He's an accomplished pro in target in the target world. He's the top level coach internationally, and he's one of the best bon hunters you'll ever meet. Beyond that, he's just a good guy. He's somebody you could have a beer with, Somebody you can shoot hoops with, Somebody you can hang out of the back porch and just laugh your ass off. He's one of my favorite people in the industry, along with his wife Sharon, his son Little dud I mean, the whole family is somebody you want to meet, you want to run into at a party, So I think that's always important. I think those things are are sometimes lost in these types of podcasts. But John Dudley is my friend. I love him and I hope you love him too. Unfortunately for you guys, we didn't talk too much about the technical specs of archery. We talked about values and influence and our roles in the industry and outside of the industry, and of course the grand conversation of the Grip and Gran. So hopefully you enjoy episode number four. Here's John Dudley. John Dudley, what's happening? What are you doing? Man? I am dedicating time and energy to what matters, and that is the thing collective. Oh my gosh, he said the name. He said the name of the podcast right off the bat. That's a win. That's already a win. A couple of these podcasts. I have asked the guests to describe where we are, but unfortunately we are not together. I am in a room at my house with a bar, drinking a corona. You are at your home in Iowa in a bar in a bar. Yes, yes, I literally just it was almost like a game of operations, but I put three bar chunk of ice cubes into my heady without making a noise. So I'm pretty sure I get to go to level two for being able to do this. You're you're already on level two for sure, well, at least in the in the in the general sense, we're in the same place that which is a place with beer here late at night on a Monday evening that I like, I would much rather be with you in Iowa. But in the absence of that, this will do. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it. I told you before we started recording that I wanted to ask you some tough questions, um, and so let's do that. I think, Um, my experience in bow hunting has been pretty pretty gnarly. I mean, I've had more failures than I can count, both when I was a kid and then coming into my more formative years, and then even since you and I have been working together, since you been showing me what how really it is done, I've had more failures than I can think of, both in the backyard and then while hunting and then over the place. And so it always strikes me that, you know, bow hunting for the US regular focus is like a game of failure, Like you're just trying to mitigate the amount of failure that you have, UM and so, and I don't know that I've you know, I've had a lot of people say about social media and our hunting industry that we don't highlight that failure quite enough. UM. So, I guess my first question is, did you agree with that that we don't highlight the failures enough or is there a better way to subscribe to that idea? Dang, dude, that's this cool question. I actually really appreciate that one. Um. I appreciate it. Martin. Probably what you would I would know, because one of the things that I really disliked about being on TV was the parameters that the TV network put around certain people that change there beliefs and outlooks on the whole hunting community. And I really felt like a lot of the things that I believed in some of the values, and then also I don't know, just some of the things that I felt like I was most passionate about in relation to not only hunting, but also just being a a bow hunter and an archer. I actually had to change those because it was part of the guidelines to being on a network, and over the course of the six years that I was on, they slowly like kind of bent rules, Like you know, they told me, what, you can't do an educational segment for three full minutes. That's too long. And then it got to the point where it's like, wow, many more educational segments can you do? And it was also like, well, we can't have a show that doesn't show success or you can't show a shot that way because it's not necessarily ethical. But the reality was if I showed something that was real, I showed it as it was real, because I wanted to teach people the importance of real honey. And there are some people that show shirt show certain aspects of a hunt, and then they kind of they almost narrated around it because they're trying to necessarily come up with an excuse. You know, I don't I'm sure you're following me, but some people may not be following me. But it's hard to say it without throwing people under the bus. But there's times when bad shots have and and then instead of education educating people on if a bad shot happens, this is what you need to do, they try to make an excuse of you know, it wasn't really a bad shot. It just looked bad or you know, they could try to cover it up. But the same is true when it comes to an unsuccessful hunt. You know. I just came out with a short film that I did with um Andy, who is the first time bow hunter, and I think it was a really cool film because we had a tough hunt in France. But the reality is we didn't have we didn't have a kill, we didn't have you know, many people's eyes, we didn't have success. And I've got to the point where I feel like, because of social media, I have this expectation that I'm always successful, but the truth is I'm not. And I'm one of the people that I actually I actually liked to show people when I miss I'd like to show people. Um you know, I remember, And it's funny, there's like so many different subjects with this topic. It's a good topic. Um. I remember one time I had a moose hunt um in BC and I showed it and the only shot I had it was it was a legal bowl. But it was you know, it was a small bowl, you know, fairly legal, but it was a legal bowl. And I was super jacked because they had had a few tough seasons up there in BC. The first year I went. The only opening I could get up there was later in the season, so I knew the chances were pretty low as a boat hunter. As a rifle hunter, it could have filled the tag, but that as a boat hunter. Um. And then the next year it was we got rain for. I was on a I was on an eight day hunt, and we got rained for all eight d eights never saw anything. So this was my third year, going back fifth day. And so by this point I was almost two full weeks into into a moose hunt and a legal bull came in and my, you know, we were it was like one in the afternoon. We had been there since morning. We were calling, and all of a sudden this bull just came in quiet and he came in. We were actually uh in this little tree stand that we made uh in between some pine trees, kind of built a little platform. This bull comes in and gives me a a pretty good shot UM, and I had ranged I was definitely comfortable with. But then he all of a sudden started to get a smell of us, so he turned and started a quarter away and he quartered pretty art and I made I made a shop that I was comfortable with, but on camera it was a little bit far back and people were upset with the shot, and the network was trying. The network trying to tell me not to show the shop. But in reality is I wanted to show the shot because it was it was truthful to hunting. It was someone that had gone three years without a shot, and the shot presented itself. I made a shot, and I the I recovered the animal right away, and I was truthful about the fact that it was not a desirable shop, but it happened. And I think that stuff is really really needed in our industry. And I think that when a SHOT's made poorly, like well, when you and I hunted together, Um, I had gone the whole year with making great jobs, but then all of a sudden, when you and I were together, that was a book that I really wanted. He came in and I mean you were there, came straight to us. I drew back before he got to us, because I knew I'd never get drawn when he was under us, and then literally stopped behind that tree waiting on that dough. And I mean, I don't even know how long has at full draw. But then literally as soon as he turned I didn't know it turned to run, but as soon as he turned to give me the shot, I shot, and he turned and was kind of starting to go, So I hit him a little bit far back, and even though we assumed that he was trackable and expired, I was totally not willing myself to risk it, so I didn't. And you know we talked about that on camera. Uh. You and I even had the discussion. You're like, I think you should go, and I said, I don't know, man, I mean, I know you think I should, but I think deep down I shouldn't. And as hunters success, no success, when to track, when not to track? Those are true. Those are a hundred percent true backbone elements to our bow hunting or hunting. Social media and TV have changed. I mean, I know that was a long way to get back to your question, but social media have changed those two true elements to our sport, and it's it's unfortunate. Yeah, I agree, because it's necessary. Well, there's it's there's two ways to think about it, right, I mean you're talking about success and failure in both macro and micro elements, right, Like the macro element, where did that air land on that animal? Was it a ten out of ten or was it an eight out of ten? As far as the effectiveness to kill that animal and then success in all the other decisions you made afterwards, and really all the decisions made before, and how do you depict all those things when you're being asked to synthesize it down into a smaller package, or even in the case of like an instant story on social media, being able to like show it in little snippets when everyone knows it's not you know, that's not happening live. You can still distill it and decide what the show and what not to show. So you're right, I mean, I think when you're talking about the ethics of telling the story inside of its success or failure, it's really hard to decide how to do that and what's effective. And I'm not sure that if you just if everyone just stuck a live camera in their bo and started posting posting those things to social media that that would be good either, um, because everybody has different motivations for doing certain things, and you know, sometimes editing is helpful. So you know, I think that that question of where did that air land? How did it get there? But then immediately after, what did you do as an important one for hunters? And how many times you know, did you illustrate that when you were you know, when the Outdoor channel or sports this channel, how many times were able both with the amount of time you had to discuss those topics, um or that, like you said, the restrictions that were I was put on you by the network. Yeah, well, I can't agree more. Man, there's no question, there's no question as good as as good as social media is that I don't know, it's an enabler, but it's the endrance at the same time. I guess that's like a lot of things in life. But you know, one of the cool things about social media for me is that social media actually gives me the ability to show truth and especially live feats. Um. I've told this to I've told this to a few friends. I told it to to Rogan. I said, because Joe, you know, Joe is he's the perfect example of a new bou hunter because he's really thirsty to like soak everything in. Whereas you and I we've been around a long time to where we almost when some people start to talk, we almost like this like freaking shield goes up like, Okay, we've heard this guy hundred times. Um, you know we kind of we already have these whether it's good or bad. We have these automatic phil ER's that kind of shoot up because you know, been there, done that type of thing. Whereas Joe's like he's a new bill hunter. He's thirt like he wants to hear it all, and then he goes to people he respects and says, hey, did you see this? What do you think about it? And he's watched a few Live He's where he's like, dude, if you heard this guy. I mean, this guy seems like nonsense, And I say, hey, this is where for me, Network TV and Live they separate the cream of the crop, Like it feeds into my wheelhouse because I try to only talk about things that I feel like I have the ability to educate in and and a comfort level to where I can either do it live or I'm not gonna do it where it is some people they want to have this image or a portrayal of who they are or what they can do, but the reality is when they're live, they may not be able to do that. So there's there's yin and yang with social media. But in. It's in the same sense and on the same I guess, uh, wave length of what I think you're trying to do with your podcast is it's also powerful for the message of hunting, but likewise it can instantly destroy it. Yeah, now you're right. I mean that's I mean, it's a partially really is it is a power. I mean we literally have this tool. You know, we we have the ringing right now, right, We've got the ringing power. I mean live social media is freaking We've got golumns ring in our hand. And it's like, okay, some of these freaking humans can put this sucker on and just tear ship up. And some of them can put it on and just literally suppressed most of the negativity that's destroying our industry. But it's the sad part about it, or the scary part about it. Not necessarily the sad part, but the scary part about it is there's no filter to who grabbed that suck here, Like everybody has the ring and someone can instantly do something that destroys our industry or crumbles the company or you know, absolutely pummels of company sales. I mean, there's a lot of different things that can happen, or you can have someone that portrays themselves elves in a fashion to where it genuinely sparks interest to what are these guys doing. Like, these guys are passionate, they're freaking going out, they're working, they're they're like they're totally investing sweat equity into this thing that they're passionate about, and then they're consuming it and they've got like the purest literally the purest of fuel there is and they're freaking just like rampaging about it. So it's a it's a it's a really really it is a complex double edged sword man. Yeah, and that makes it a tough topic to even to even try to simplify into you know, whatever hour or two hours that we have to talk here. I mean, it's it's you could start with the great point that you made. Everyone has the power, right, so everyone that is listening into this or um that has the ability to you know, plug their basic information into some forms on the internet suddenly can a massive following for whatever reason, those people desire to follow that person, and then they can exert influence based on that following. And that is a crazy idea. And you know, a great example is is Rogan. I mean, Joe Rogan has been I don't know what how you would qualify, but I would say he's been the biggest influence on hunting that I've seen since I've been alive. Um, yeah, well, I mean on different levels. I would say, I would say Bill Jordan, yeah one two decades ago, and I would say Joe Rogan is a completely different like form of that. Yeah. Well I came up, I came up on Bill Jordan's and he was just like this window into hunting that no one else had, right, I mean, there wasn't that many voice is whenever Real Tree, Monster Bucks was coming out. I mean you had a few DVDs here there, or a few magazines you can subscribe to, but there was just a limited number of voices, which you know was good and bad. It made it easier to stand out, but it made it more important to be respectable and respected. Um. Now we have all these voices, as we've said, there's millions of voices out there talking about hunting, and it's that much harder to be, you know, in that ball of noise, to stand out and be heard. And when somebody like Joe steps into the arena with that powerful following already and starts to just evolve his passion for bo hunting the way he has in the public eye. I mean, it's been a great story to watch that, So, you know, I think what you can do specifically but knock on and your in your knowledge is all good. And you know, another question I was thinking about on them drive home from work for you was like, how do you take your knowledge and the things that you know about our tree? You won't have to list off your resume, but hopefully everyone listening kind of knows. How do you take your knowledge and distill it and get it out there um as effectively as somebody who may have, you know, have a negative slant for hunting. Well, I don't really know the right way to answer that. I know, I guess you know. There are two things that were important to talk about. Their one was Joe has been very very fortunate to where he came across some very very good people right away to where I mean between Runella, Cam you remy me. I mean, he came across some people that were the right people to where when he got into this he saw all the sides that are the right side for having true compelling argument to the opposite side, okay, whereas he could have came in and been introduced to, you know, almost our opposite to where he may have came in and just said, Man, I don't know, this is a bunch of freaking you know whatever. You know, these these guys are what what media portrays them as. And I'm not really into that. I mean, that could have happened easily, no question um for me. I've just got to the point where, honestly, I don't and I'm I don't know. I feel like I've never wanted to be bigger than I am, So I'm not like I'm not fighting for it to the point where it doesn't I don't feel like I'm fighting for it to where it becomes where it comes off authentic. I get authentic information that is relevant to who I am and what I'm passionate about, and I want people two associate with me, or follow me, or theoretically just come along for this ride with me that are passionate about the same things. And I don't go outside of that freaking network, man, I mean, I don't. I still I'll still do a podcast and I'll have someone that will come on and say, man, I shot with you at an A s A tournament twenty years ago and just loved it on that target, and I've still been following you since. I mean, those are the people. Those are the only people I care about in this ride, because that's what I believe in, and that's what I'm passionate about myself. I don't I don't try to go outside of that. So I don't know, it's hard. There's there are certain people that aren't wired that way, and obviously they can come into this thing and they can create, you know, they can instantly, they can instantly. I don't know. I mean I always try to I always try to approach things that I say thinking about Okay, I don't wanna hurt someone else's feelings, even people I don't know. UM. But to go back a little bit, when I was still working at Matthews I remember, which is a large archery company. For those of you listening who aren't like into archery, UM, Matthews was a was a very large archery company at the time. We're number one in bow hunting for you know, for sales. We're in company twice since when I was there, and I remember one time. Um, And back then, you know, social media wasn't out, dude. We got like you would open envelopes and people would have pictures like their pictures of animals they shot, and you would go through pictures, which you were the same when you were an editor. You would go through pictures of stuff people's shot and then decide what goes in your catalog. And sometimes we would open an envelope and it would be a guy that would have one elk and one mulei, and you'd be like, oh, yeah, a pretty good year. And then you open the next envelope and here's a guy that has an elk, a mulei, a big horn, a turkey, forty dogs like all this stuff. And I remember one time my boss at the time, Joel Maxfield UM, which I'm sure you probably know Joel Um, he said, you know, really, to make an aim for yourself in the hunting industry, all you need is time and money. Yeah, that's all you need. But I mean, honestly, that is like if you want to if you want to shoot a grand slamp any time and money, if you want to shoot the Grand slam and sheet, any time and money. But there's a there's a few guys that like fall between those lines, that are just absolutely hardcore, passionate guys that are just engulfed in it. I mean guys like Remy right. I mean, these are guys that literally there, their time is a hundred percent, all of their time of their life has been dedicated to hunting. They've been out, They've literally left their jobs because they wanted to be out the entire elk season. Yeah, yeah, I mean Remy told me recently, Remy Warren, that he there's years past that he hunted three hundred days a year. I mean, between guiding and personal trips, three hundred days a year. And I'm sure I'm sure you've hit close to that before. I know, I know, yeah, I mean I can't say that. I can't. I can't say that, you know, I would say there's certainly days where I've I've trained, and I've trained and and practiced and prepared for that. But to be out there for that, I mean, there's guys like that that have just the the perfect voice for the industry. But those guys are not the ones that are looking for attention. Those aren't the ones that are trying to be the next social media guy. So you know, that's what gets really tough, is you know, when you kind of asked the questions or you know, what does social media changed or what does you know? How many of your followers are you know, truly following what you're doing. Man, it's for me, I'm happy with content with where I'm at, but there is there are two very very clear paths that are being taken by mainstream hunters, and they're you know, I don't I don't want to put myself necessarily in the same category as Remy because Primy and I are different. But I think it would be safe to say that Remy and I don't care what mainstream thinks us as much as we want to to at least voice are heartfelt opinion on that. Again, I don't know if that's no that makes sense. I mean it goes back to the point you made about how do you determine who's an expert hunter or how do you determine who's a voice to be listened to, or how do you determine who is you know, the term that we use in marketing all the time, who is an influencer? Because what what type of influence are you looking for? What type of person um are you after? And I think that's what drew me to you first, just because you know, you could definitely see you from listening to your podcast or from um following you on social that there's a depth of knowledge there that just isn't there with anyone else that I've ever experienced or met. So yeah, that that's the ultimate question, right, Like how do you in a in a pursuit like hunting that's a democracy. Anyone can do it as long as they do it leagally and have a license and have some level of skill to to get it done. Anyone can do it, which means anyone, like you said, with time and money, could could be um over and above everyone else. If you track success based on how many species you've killed, or how many animals you've killed, or how many inches a bone you've collected over the years, I mean, that's the that's the question, right. I mean, because you've killed every species on the planet, does that make you a better hunter than than John Dudley you just hunts in Iowa every year, or or Remy Warren who maybe sticks home in Nevada. I mean, what is to you? What's the qualifier? How would you qualify that an even tougher question. I think I'm gonna say something I don't even think I've told you even as a friendness. But a few years ago, and I won't see who it was, but a few years ago, I had a sponsor of mine that in a phone call compared me to another person within our street that also haunts and also shoots. And they made the comparison to me, and I remember them saying, like, you know, do you really put yourself on their level? I mean, they said, you know, right now they're going for the Grand Slam? I mean, are you even doing that? And what was so strange about the conversation is at the beginning of the conversation, the conversation started about what it would cost to sponsor my show when it was on network, And so during that conversation somehow it got moved over to will you can't be worth that much because this person is going out and doing a Grand Slam. You're not even doing that? And I remember I said, dude, do you realize that extra sponsorship money that they ask for is because they're doing that? Like, would you rather pay less for someone that is literally doing what's what they're passionate about and what I feel personally is good for the industry, or are you going to pay the person that is literally their investment. Is I am going to be the next person to a grand Slam? I mean, it was this. It was just his most awkward conversation, and it was at that moment I realized, this person is not not a fit for me Like this, I don't care even if they're offering me something. I'm not gonna go anywhere with this conversation because if you're comparing me to someone that's going to go on a fifty sheep hunt, I cannot, Like, that's not on my map. I've got a kid that's getting ready to go on kidting, ready to go to college. You know, if I think a fifty grand, I'm thinking that's two years of college and I'm not thinking do I want to go shoot sheep? But yet you're comparing me to someone that is going to be getting a super slam versus someone that's literally trying to just get by and educate. So I don't know, it's it is a It is a very weird thing that our industry is in. We I don't want to make it about killing, but yet we do. It's am I right, It's a weird paradox. It's like, well, we don't want to make it about killing, but would you kill this year? Like how much would you really kill? And honestly that this is the part I haven't told you. So since then, a lot of my um a lot of my antlers that I've had in the house, I've actually been I've been having them cut up to just to make Boe grips for my followers, because it was at that moment where I'm like, you know, what if all these crabs sitting around in here is coming down to this, I don't want to look at it. That's powerful that you were so changed by those interactions that you felt like, you know, that the tokens of hunting in your house had to go away because you didn't want to feel like, you know, maybe you're cheating the experience like some other people do. I mean, that's crazy to me. And and the other point you made that I feel like it's elevated is that like some of the animals you you happen to live in Iowa, um were white tail hunting is if you're a resident, it's pretty inclusive. If you have property and you can buy a hunting license. Um, you can go hunt white tailed deer. But we have these other animals that are exclusive because of a myriad of factors. Like a sheep is an exclusive animal. You either have to draw that tag or you have to have a lot of money to pay someone else to take you and then go. So you happen to live in an area where the white tailed deer is this inclusive animal, where everybody basically in America could go hunt them if they choose to. Someone else uses money to go and chase an exclusive animal, and somehow that exclusivity draws them praise. Whereas you put the time into your land. You have to build the property like you have out there in Iowa. Um, and somehow someone who shoots a big ram is better than you at the pursuit, which is kind of silly to me. And I could see how that silliness would make you want to run from it a little bit. Yeah, yeah, it's a but the same in this and what's weird is on the same on the same exact hand, I'm sitting there fully appreciating the amount of work that it goes in to get one of those things like if they have a tag. It's not easy, you know it. So those are freaking tough hunts. I mean, you know when you went and shot your blue sheet, I mean, yeah, I'm never gonna go shoot a blue sheet. I mean unless unless someone hears this podcast and it's like, wow, I want to shoot the blue sheet, but I need John Double to go with me. Well, I mean that would be the only time I would go. But I'm not gonna ever shoot a blue sheet. But who I know. I know the amount of baby wife you went through the shoot one, and I mean in the in the same sense I can appreciate listen that is and earned species, I get it, but it's it's just really funny when the corporate part of the hunting industry views that as a measuring stick. That's what It's really really tough. And honestly, when you called me about about Yetti, I don't know if you remember this, but I just said, I don't know, dude, I feel like I'm totally late to this ball game because I literally felt like I was the only outdoor person that was not sponsored by Yetti. And I was truthful in the fact of I don't know if I want to be the last person like come on the YETI party train, because you know I want to. I would really love for people, at least my followers. I would love them to see me go to Yetti because I was passionate about it, and not because of the industry. He was already there, So that was all I mean. And do you remember our conversation about that. Absolutely absolutely that was more of a worry for me. I'm like, listen, I just want to make sure that my true passion and my true usage of the product is clear and transparent to the people that follows what I'm doing, because I don't want to just be on a bandwagon. I want it has to be authentic for me. Yeah. Absolutely, well, and back to the blue sheet point like, you're pent right in that too, And I don't I don't want ever to come across like, hey, if you hunt a sheep, you have to be rich to have a bunch of um, you know, time on your hands. That's not that's not to say that the action of sheep hunting isn't isn't ridiculously tough, And anybody who shot a grand slam of anything has to have more ability than the average hunter, much more ability than the average hunter. So and in that way you earn it. Um. It's just hard when you whip out the measuring stick, like you said, that's hard, it's hard to figure that, Um, Which parts do you measure? Which parts do you discount? How do you figure all that out? Um? You know the same way with with being sponsored by a company, Which which parts of that connection do you take in? Which parts maybe do you discount? Especially in your situation. And and that's just a tough that's a tough road to home, um, and a good issue to to think about. I always think about that, Like if am I a better hunter because I went and shot that blue sheep? I don't think so. No, UM, I would say you are. I would say you learn stuff there that I've never been able to experience because I've never been in that element. Yeah, yeah, I know you better hunter. I can tell you you're a better hunter because you've experienced something cover than I've ever experienced. But but I know what you're saying at the same time too, you know. Yeah, when it comes to my reputation, like am I do I hold that up as the reason why someone should ask me for my opinion? That's not No, I don't at all. It was you're putting a situation. I was lucky enough to be putting that situation, and then I was even luckier to have you know, gutted it out and got it done. I mean those so it's hard to bring that back into an industry and try to shape those stories in a way that it's supposed to, you know, shape me as a hunter. It's because kind of it's it's a weird echo chamber that we get in. Um, you know, would would the grip and grin of me and that sheep somehow put on a billboard people, Oh my gosh, there's been or Brian, which we should we should really follow him and listen to what he says. He shot a blue sheep like and maybe not? Am I better personally for it? Yeah? Sure? But does it mean someth I should listen to what I have to say. No, it should be a whole package, much like you know, your whole package started when you were a young man, and you went through many tournaments and many failures and many successes, and you build up an expertise and now here you are someone with so much to share. Um, that's why it's important to be connected to brands and to your audience. That that's why those things are that's why those things are important, not just that one giant Bucky kill, but the totality of what you've done. Yeah, yeah, do you I've got two questions for you. Can I do that? Yeah? Please? Please spin the table. One thing that I struggle with is when I'm at these shows, people come up to me and and they're super passionate because they're trying to get into the industry, or they're you know, they've got this vision of what they want to do, and they come up to you and they're like, hey, check this out. We're starting you know, such and such, and it just it gets really hard to listen to I don't know if I'm saying this the right way, but it gets really hard to to listen to everybody's idea when they're trying to kind of make a pitch for how to get their leg in the industry, when a lot of times it's clear at the very get go that the way that they're trying to come in it really isn't from It really isn't because they're wanting to get in it. You know, they're not wanting to come in to grow things. They're wanting to come in because they're really wanting to just you know, they're wanting to create their own image. And it's sometimes it's hard because you know, I feel almost guilty by shutting them out mentally almost too fast. How do you, I mean, how do you feel about that or deal with that? I mean, do you feel like do you feel like there's a lot of people trying to get in it for the wrong reasons? Or and I guess, how do you what's your filth? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean every I would say. The first thing I always try to think of is I respect that they're this person is coming to me with this like that. To me, I have to, you know, kind of peel away what they're saying and try to think of the angle they're coming from, Like I should be grateful that anyone walks up to me and says, you know, I'm trying to get in, how do how does it happen? Or I'm trying to get in? Can you help me get in? Or can I earn your um in the case of me, marketing dollars in the case of you, just advice. So that's the first thing I try to think of, And man, I slip on that all the time. Like you said, when somebody's talking and I know that, you know they're not coming from the angle that I appreciate, or maybe that they're a little bit misled. I always I catch myself always just shutting it off and just going through the motion. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, here's a card for someone else to talk to. Try to be incura, but just get him out of your face. I think that's probably only natural, just because the amount of that that you see and that I see just in my in my career. Um, I think that's only natural. But I would say this year at the A T A Show, I was really surprised at the number of people that were looking for instant fame that we're looking for, or had had believe that they had garnered it just based on the amount of people that were following them or the other companies that were supporting them, and weren't there to tell me their story, you know, how they got to the point where they are and where they want to go and how they hope to get there, because I think those are the three key points. Um, they had lost the ability just to tell their own story and be passionate about that story. Um, they were just telling me what they thought I needed to hear to give them money. Um, yet he's money as a ghost. So I think maybe that's there's a little bit of a distortion from those from some people in the industry that like, you can, how do I become an influencer, rather than how do I tell my story? Then maybe one day I will become an influencer. Maybe if I tell my story the right way and people watch me grow and watch me learn and fail and succeed, and and they do that via social media, then one day I'll be in a position where I can be an influencer. Whereas like, how can I get a bunch of followers and have some sock company give me money from wearing their socks and putting and putting putting my feet on Instagram? Which I saw recently. Um, there's a there's an unnamed sock company that is sponsoring social media influencers and then putting people are putting their feet on the Internet. It's a bad trend, man, It's a bad trend. Man. I put the picture my feet one time after my Alberta hunt and some people. Their comments made me never want to post that picture again, I mean, cancel social media just to never see a picture like this again. Yeah, I mean, so, I don't know. I'm not sure that I know the answer to that question, other than that I first tried to appreciate what where the person is coming from and connect with them in some way, having you know, there was somebody in my life who heard my UM story and absolutely connected with it and listen. So I try to do that. But then also at the same time, um, you know, time is valuable, so people need to understand that, and they need to understand that you really gotta think hard before you brochia conversation like that, especially in a trade show environment. But I would you can encourage everybody to go for whatever their dreams are. But well, that's a that's a really good perspective. I mean, I guess I never looked at it from that way. I should. I definitely like the idea of, you know, trying to step back and saying, Okay, well, this person is asked me because it's of importance to them, which I think is very, very probably the most important part of that UM. But yeah, I don't I mean I don't know if I'm being totally transparent about our conversation. Some of all this stuff that we're talking about is related, because sometimes when I'm talking about things, or even when I'm having conversations about people, sometimes I'm worried if I'm coming off as that person to where they're just you know, I'm I'm always like conscious of Okay, am I being looked at? Is this person that's like trying to make it an industry? Because I mean I do even though some people say I've made an industry, in my mind, I'm still just like everyone else. I mean, I feel like I'm no different than you. I don't feel like I'm a Joe Rogan. I feel like I'm no different than you, feeling I'm no different than Remy. I feel like we're walking around that show and you know, we're all still trying to, you know, to trying to voice our opinion on what we feel like is good for the industry or good for the you know, the people out there that are hunting or shooting or you know. I feel like I still have I'm still trying to like give my message out about what I feel like people should do too to overcome target panic or things like that, and I don't, I don't feel like I don't know. I guess I don't see myself as being a person that is on the pedestal board. I don't have to fight for that. Still, so sometimes when I walk around there, I do feel uncomfortable because I'm like, I don't I don't want to be putting this corner where people aren't really listening to what I'm saying. Think about how think about how strange that environment is too. I was thinking about that this year walking around a t A specifically, like for you, UM and guys like Cam and Remy and people that are you know that are influencers that are seen that way by both the public and then also UM companies brands. You you live your daily life, right, You're in Iowa, You're you're working hard, you're putting out content, You're you're working on your farm, You're doing all this stuff. And that's a relatively normal life like your outlets of the world of social media. And that's great, I mean, that's that's a great way, a great prism for people to see you in. But then when you walk into this giant exhibit hall with ten ft tall pictures of the same people that you just think are your friends and the and you know, billboards with faces on them that you just like to hang out with and have a beer, and signings with lines down the block for somebody who you just you know, worked out with a couple of hours ago. Like it just it becomes this weird feeling of there's me just in my normal life, and then there's like influence for me that has to be a certain way. And I'm sure that's weird for you. I mean, it doesn't happen to me, and I would be weird for me. So I'm sure when you see yourself as just a normal guy fighting to to tell people this your own story and the things you're you care about, then you walk into a room and you're being you know, you're being put up as an icon in some way, that's weird because in that room every booth has a giant billboards with these faces on it and and ladies too, and you become something I think maybe a little bit different than than what you know, how you see yourself. Is that is that right? Or am I just talking bullshit? And you're not exempt? And I'll say that because you know when I was when I was in control of a big marketing budget, and when I was you know, international sales and marketing manager at Matthews. Do you have the same You're you're still on you know, you're still that guy, just kind of at a different position. Instead of everyone wanting to come to you for maybe signing an eight by ten, everybody's coming to you to try to sign an eight by eleven contract. That's the truth. I mean, you're different, right, I mean it's the same people are coming up to you, like you know, say we're at that table. People may come up and say, hey, I on my one ere autograph, you know, the green tree. But someone could easily come up to you, but iPad say, Ben, do you think you could check out this new pilot? We did. Yeah, it's just it's just different. It's just on a different level. But it's the same. Yeah, No, absolutely, Oh you're right. I never thought about that like that, But yeah, I mean you get attention for different reasons, and really, what like, what is this conversation we're having about other than attention? You know, who who's earned it, who hasn't earned it? How do you gauge that? Is? Their rules? To, you know, to kind of make sure the folks that are getting the bulk of the attention are doing it for the right reasons. UM. And I struggle with that personally, Like, you know, sometimes I feel like if I if I shut off social media right now, would I get the same type of experience when I was hunting if I knew no one would see it unless I spoke to them personally, Like, I'm not sure the way my brain has been trained here recently, that I would get the same enjoyment out of it. I'm not sure if not being able to share that with a big, massive amount of people, UM would feel the same for me. And that's pretty scary, Like I think, how dare you? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's true. Maybe that the idea that if I shot this animal only what I've found is when I'm on, when I'm on experiences with true friends, which to me translate into hunts that were authentic to when I was hunting with family or friends. UM. Now, there's been times were for example, last year, when you and I were in Lena, I you a asked me to take over their Instagram, right, Yeah, so I did. But there's been other opportunities. I mean, were you and I posting all the time when you and I were hunting it together here in Iowa. No, did we do what our job required of us. Later, Yes, when I was just in Oklahoma hunting with Andy and Torsten, I mean, dude, I was off the map to everyone else, and the reason was because I was truly enjoying hunting to the core of what hunting is to me. I can tell you that I do social media out of obligation to two people. One one person is my sponsors because I have to, and the second is to my followers because I appreciate them. If it came back to me, like, there's no way I would be on there, Like when when Joe and I hug hunted together a year ago in California. I mean, I have hundreds of pictures from our hunt that to me, those are things that I look at when I'm really wanting to enjoy a moment with a friend and I think, we gotta, man, we gotta freaking keep that alive, Like we have to keep these moments to where they're truly special, to the ones that we're closest to, because you know, when some of this stuff is when some of this stuff goes to everybody, it's hard to say that there's true importance to it. And that's how I am with you know, I've I've been there. It's it's hard for me when I'm on a hunt where I'm really loving it two and I'm with people that are really care about and I'm like enjoying conversation and really engulfed in a memory, It's hard for me to want to put that on pause to capture to someone that's not in the moment. I mean, that gets hard for me. Maybe that's weird. Maybe it may me. Maybe I'm the weird guy. No, we're both weird. But I think probably most people listening would say, a couple of guys that get to huntle over and oh, you've heartbroken about whether you should post or not? Screw you. Like I could see that being a thought, But I think what you're saying is relevant to anyone that wants to share their story and whatever venue they want to share it, Like, how much of it is, how much of what you're doing is about the end result and and what it looks like to everyone else, and how much of it is about how it feels to you? And how much personal rewards you get from it. I mean, I talked in the last to our boy, Aubrey Marcus last podcast, and you made a short guest appearance which I appreciate, and we talked about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation from a guy named Johan Harry that I heard on Rogan's podcast, and that was the same exact conversation we were having right now. Like intrinsic being you know, you're you're personally rewarded by an activity, and you kind of lose time in doing it and you're not worried about anyone else or what they might think or how how you might be rewarded. And then that extrinsic piece is you're doing something and you're always worrying about the reward at the end of the time, at the end of the day, you're always worried about what everybody might think or how you can tell everyone about what you're doing, and you lose some part of the intrinsic value and and going and doing the thing, whatever the thing might be. So it seems like that's a common thread and everybody I'm talking to, maybe because I always bring it up, but uh, it's interesting to me. That's an interesting subject of the motivations. And then I mean, do you remember a time before you were a professional UM in the hunting space where you like the last you know, maybe the last vestiges of of prior to social media, prior to your TV show, and you were just hunting for yourself, and you know, I know you also were competing in archery tournaments and you were driven to just go hunt more than you were to be a professional UM target archer. I mean that I think that that story in and of itself could probably inform this Oh yeah, well I'd like to compete. I mean, at first I wanted to compete because I was competitive, But the reality is it didn't take very long for me to realize that. I kind of realized that after I won. When I won my first national championship, I was so excited about it. I got this trophy and brought it home and then, you know, nine months later, I could barely read the name on the on this big freaking mug because it was just black with tarnish. So I had to clean it up and you know, polish it all that stuff. And then I remember the next year, someone was said something like, hey, who won this last year? You know, we're in a tournament and someone else want it. And I was sitting there. But meanwhile, while I was watching someone else win it, someone said, well who won this last year? And I had to have the conversation, Oh, I want it last year, and they're like, oh, okay, oh cool and uh And then I realized, wait a minute. The reason people are walking on walking around with like their shirt that says Billy Bob National Champion, it's not like it's it's not because they earned the title. It's because no one remembers that. The next year they're trying to like remind everybody. So I just got to the point where I'm like, you know, this stuff, unless it mean something to you, it doesn't mean anything anyone else. That's a great point. So what means something to me is going on the hunt. That's what means something to me, not going to a tournament. I went to a tournament so that when I went to a hunt, I was going to get something. Yeah, that's truth. So you know, when for the longest time, I never posted I've never posted posted my accomplishments on like my website or anything, and people got to the point where they're like, hey, do you have a bio or something to me. We're trying to write about this and we kind of know you've done some stuff, but none of that's out there, and it's like, well, I guess I need to put it out there. But in the same sense I competed to be a better bow hunter, I didn't because I realized pretty quick that when you compete, you know, well, tell me this, do you know the rain? The olmer is, of course, what is it? What title does he want as an archer? They'll know bad ass. That's the only one I know. See, that's my point. So it's, uh, I don't know. It's a That's another tough thing, you know nowadays imagine social media and competition. You can instantly be a world champion and you can run, you can freaking run the whole finish line. But that but your reality is what does it really mean? It's tough now, You're right, I mean that's it's always trying to figure out. I like what you said, thinking like that's like Nolan Ryan saying, yeah, man, only I was only a baseball player so I could throw rocks at deer. I wanted to get better throw those rocks, saying I wanted to see him throw a rock and a deer. That kind of I kind of do too. I think you'd probably have a good effect. Would never do that. Hey, I told you I have two questions for you to my second one for it. So my second one is you made a post one time, which is still and I haven't even talked to you about this, which I think is what's cool about the podcast is it's authentic. She made a podcast specifically about trophy photos. Remember it? I do remember it. Yeah, there's no way I can forget it now that I did it. Okay, So do you want to talk about it? Sure? For those that don't know, I mean, there's a Gritty Bowman podcast that we did talking about it. But I basically, um, I just watched the film Trophy. They just came out the scene in documentary, and I just talked a bunch of people and and I just started thinking about the history of hunting and kind of my own history in it, and where the trophy thing came from. And I was started thinking about the history of trophy photos or gripping grins or whatever. And then I started thinking, like why I do it, and um, how weird. It probably looks to other people that we like dump water to get the blood off and stick their tongues back in their mouths and drag them off to a nice vista and take a photo. And I said, just for myself, I think that this trophy photo is wrapped up in a lot of negativity for a lot of people for whatever reason. Um likely because when we flipped the switch to social media, people started to see these little trading cards almost that that people used to just hand each other. You know you were, I'm sure you were many many years at trade shows with your with like a binder full of photos, right, like trophy photos that used to that used to be the thing, and show people this is what I did last year. Yeah, that was that was the thing, right. So we took those binders of photos and we started uploading them to the damn Internet, and people started to see him and no one understood what that was. That was like like a special little language we had with each other that had become important over the years, and then it started getting uploaded. I think regular folks looked at that and saw the message a negative message like this person is happy too, and celebrating to have taken this life and look how they're demonstrating it. So it's nice to say I can talk forever, but it's ufice to say I just posted that. Look. I think for my own mind, I'm going to take that image that has been a little bit negative for a lot of people and and change that in my own activities and and try to put out an image that respects the animal totally, however that might look. And it's you know, certain instance, I'm not gonna completely stage every photo I take when I kill an animal, but I am going to make sure whenever we do that that I feel like it's shows respect and I feel like everybody should do that too. And I think that's or something like that, something to that effect. That's probably where I was wrong. Everybody can can do what they want to do. What the hell do I know? But I put a pull up and I lost. I lost like eighty award as with should hunters not not do gripping runs anymore? But I was still happy to have started the conversation. And I've gotten a lot of people just you know, wagging their finger at me and saying, you know, how dare you? And maybe maybe I should have worded it differently, but I just at the moment, in that moment, thinking the way I was, I thought, I really want to just say this outright and not hedge on it and not um not hedge with my ideas are and it's quite garnered a quite a lot of commentary. Cool, it means it's an opportunity. I mean, obviously now someone that's I mean, I'm authentic and asking the question. Because for me, I took pictures. When I started taking pictures of my animals, I took pictures with thirty five million meters. There was no iPhones. You didn't see what the picture was, you didn't know if the exposure was right. There was no photo shop. I mean, I took pictures, and I took rolls of photos for one animal, took him to Walmart, paid for the one hour photo just to hope that one photo was good, and like, you know, something that I would have with me for all the time. So from that aspect, I can I disagreed with you. But on the other hand, there's a lot of photos that go out on social media that people are ignorant and not expecting people to disagree with. So I just said, I actually voted that I mean, and I don't think I mean told you this, but I I voted against the non group and print because for me, my pictures and rolls and rolls and roll of the film that I took to try to get one photo which I saved and I have downstairs, you know, and kind of been my safe of oh yeah, here's a photo I showed shot back in the nineties. Um, I'm proud of that. Like in at that time, I couldn't even afford I couldn't afford to mount things. So my photo literally that was my mount, like that was that was my trophy. I couldn't, you know. And and truthfully, a lot of the stuff that I shot years ago, I don't even know, you know, they've just been lost and moving ng or broken or whatever. But I still have photos. So I was passionate about I don't agree with not having the grip and grand but I also know that when I was sitting there selecting photos for a catalog back again, when you open up an envelope and you look at photos and you're like, oh, what'sh what photos should we put in the catalog? You weren't like looking at someone social media saying, oh, these guys have two hundred fifty followers, they need to be in our catalog. You were just saying, who's got a good photo, and you would look and be like, holy crap, this guy. Um do you remember Lane last? Damn it. Don't do this too, man. This is gonna be like that time you and Rogue and argued about you're going to get hung for not no in his name? You know what I'm talking about. This would be about the time we were in the nine recorded a Rogan podcast and you guys are arguing about the name of a fighter for like three I know, and I actually had to track him down and be like did I want to fight? And he's like, no, you didn't. Not there, you didn't. I was like, okay, thinks well yeah. So there were people that were that we're like really good photographers, So you were you were like, or at least me, I was. I was trying to make a photo to where if that person looked at it, they'd be like, Wow, that's a very respectful, nice photo of their deer. But then all of a sudden you'd get someone that shot a buck in Iowa and it would be you know, tongue hanging out, blood drew out of its nostril. And when he's back in, you know, in the back of a Ford pickup truck, is you know, a bunch of like moldy bud light uh boxes in the background, and they're like, Okay, this is a ridiculously cool buck. But obviously it's tongue hanging out and there's blood hanging out, and there's like a bunch of beer cans in the back of this guy's car. He shouldn't be drinking and driving. And you know, yeah, thanks for the photo, but no, we can't put it in our catalogs um um that aspect. You're right, you know, if if that is some people's grip and grin, it's it doesn't represent as well. Yeah, well I would. Just the other thing I was coming to is that, and talked about it on the Gritty Bone podcast is like, I, you know, I work at Yeddie and I live in a town that's, you know, decidedly even though it's in Texas, it's decidedly urban, and there's a lot of folks that don't go outside um too much and do what we do. And so I live in a in a space where. Um. I've had the conversation all week this week at work. But you know, it's just trying to introduce people to the idea of hunting, not not the particular points in a little um micro arguments we have inside of hunting. I'm talking just the general idea of what the hell we're out there doing. Um. And so I always link that idea back to in journalism school when I went from what I remember between trips to the barn and such it was, it was always it was always like, hey, know your audience. That's the first rule of journalism. Know your audience. Know who you're speaking to, um, know who might see the thing you're doing. So in the case that that you bring up of like a Matthew's catalog, you know who your audience is. You know where that thing is gonna end up, um, And so you can and you can postcript and grins and something like that. I would say, like, I'm okay and venue. When everybody understands what a group and grin is, every hunter understands it's not disrespect, it's respect. Um, I'm okay with a group and grin if you were just showing it to me or me showing to you. The issue I have when when you put it online is that it then you're maybe not clear of who your audience really is. Um, even though you have a certain set of followers, it's pretty much open. I think it's fair you don't know. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean, you don't fair to say you freaking have no clue. I mean, look look at the people we've met through social media. Absolutely we don't have any freak So okay, let's just stop there. We have no idea. Who's right, we have no idea? Yeah, I mean there's ways you can mitigate it, and like, I have a private thing and a private profile, and but you don't have no idea? Yeah, so in Mike, most people don't. I would say from you, how about Torson? Yeah, we have no idea, no idea, And so would I ever? Would I ever imagine that I make a post about buying my kid a freaking ninety dollar vinyl record player at a guitar center for his birthday and buying a one Led Zeppelin record man posting about it, and then next thing I know, the freaking one of the head honchos that Atlantic Records is freaking sent me the package in the mail because he because he sees them passionate about vinyl. Yeah, yeah, we really have no idea. And so that's my general if journalism in the decorum works here, if you say, like, hey, look, you don't know on social media, you don't know who your audience really is. Suffice to say, you can't control it. If you think if you think that's wrong, then in that environment it makes sense to kind of not completely sense yourself and and somebody to take a hard left turn. At this conversation, somebody commented to me like, well, we live in this snowflake society where the meat too movement tells us what we have to do. And I'm not going to bend to anybody, Like yeah, I get you, but like, let's meet some Let's meet somewhere in the middle. Let's not change everything we do for everyone or nothing we do for no one. Let's in the middle somewhere say like, because we don't know who's looking at this, let's change it up a little bit to take away the things that someone might view as negative. Because the grip and your in things not so important to me that I have to have it, you know, I could give up parts of that and still get the same experience of hunting as I as I would otherwise, I don't losing anything. And so I don't know. Maybe I'm convincing. You may be not, But I think that's just been my own personal slant on it. And I think we're pretty quick, we're pretty slow to change, pretty pretty quick in the hunting industry, in the hunting world. To kind of deny changes, it's staring us in the face. I think in this case, it's it's nice to have the conversation whether it's the right or wrong thing to do. And like I don't even know it was. It was the late nineties. I was in the softball tournament Sparta, Wisconsin, small community. We're sitting there, we're in the We're in the championship of this baseball tournament, and I'm playing baseball for Matthews, who was a business in our community. And we're playing against this other team and it's for all the marbles. It's you know, we're in this championship deal, So I freaking us crush this softball into like left field, the left center outfielder in the left fielder. They're both running for this ball and they're boats just like so focused on me catching these balls, but I could be out. They just freaking I'm talking cranium to cranium. Just boom. They freaking run into one another and they're both laying out on the sidelines. Well, here's the owner of our company, Matt Mkerson. He had never he had never went to another softball game ever, but he knew Matthews was in the finals. We're in the championship. So Matt came. He's in, He's in the stands and here's Matt, you know, devout Christian, loves people, all about the community. And here's two guys that run for a ball that was hit by a Matthews employee. And these guys freaking her post told talk laying on the side of the freaking side by side. They're literally laying side by side the balls. They're like, I could have ran for a home run, but everybody just stopped, like, oh my god, and these guys are dead. So Matt runs out to outfield from the stands and he's sitting there and knowing Matt, he's like willing to can I pay for your freaking hospital bills? Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, this never would happen if Matthews would have been playing you guys in the finals, right, Like, this is I know Matt well enough to know this is his mentality. So the guy comes to and Matt's like, oh my god, are you okay? He's like, hey, buddy, are you all right? Are you right? And the guys just like, oh, it's just dropped the biggest F bomb ever. And you can just tell Matt being who he is, he just instantly switched off. And he went from being someone that was whether can help you or your family or anything because of this catastrophe to like, okay, he's turned off. And the same is true. You know, if we go into a meeting with their bosses and we talk like we're at a frat party, or if we talk like we're at a night out with a bunch of pirates, you you just your voice does not get hurt. It's looked at from a completely different point of view. So why do people feel like it's not the same for hunting? Yeah, I don't know. Don't attack something from a professional point of view. You're not ever going to get your opinion heard. I mean, you can you can be someone that is at the top of your food chain. But as soon as you start speaking at a very very unprofessional level, no matter what your credibility is, it's degraded. That's reality, our opinions and our stance as hunters and what you know. I saw a picture from the hunting community. I saw this on Facebook. Actually screenshot at it because I couldn't even believe it. But someone took a picture of their car with like a bunch of dead deer that were frozen in a position that and they like staged them all to look like Santa Slagh. It's like, how can you? I mean, I understand the fact you're like, it's a free world, I can do what I want, But how do you think that anything you fight for is ever going to be accepted if that's the way that you attack it. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the reality, and that's it just boils down the tack attacked one oh one, Yeah, right for sure, And then you you can kind of hit the nail on the head there at some level when it's it's you see what happened in British Columbia with the ban on grizzly bear hunting. I mean it that was based on popular opinions. So you're we all love something that is not given wasn't given us to us by right? I mean it is in the modern sense of privilege, you know it. Sure we have this heritage with it going back millions of years, and it's connected to our humanity. But in the modern sense, it's really a different it's a different ball game, and we could lose whatever whatever we think hunting is if we don't um presented in the right way to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world was looking at us saying basically asking the single question, is this thing good for us and for animals? Is it good? Continue to convince me. As society changes and as we change as humans, they're they're gonna keep asking that question. We gotta keep answering it. Um as technology changes, as we change, is you know they can carrying capacity of lands change and conservation principles change, Like, we have to continue to answer that question, and if we if we answer it wrong enough times, they're just going to take it away. And and as evidence in in British Columbia, So yeah, you were right. I legitimately think it's a matter of when someone moves into a position that gets enough I guess, gets enough pressure from one side to change something, it will change. It doesn't even matter if we do it wrong. That's the reality. So as hunters, I can tell you that. Well, I can tell you this from from my point of view. When people make posts, When people make a post on things that I have, I actually make a decision on is this a person to where I can oppose their opinion and they're going to look at it objectively or is this a person to where no matter what I say, it doesn't matter. So a lot of times, and I'm sure this is the case. And Ape you have the ability now to research someone before you reply to them. And if every single thing you ever do is just stick it to the man, then most likely your ability to have a voice has gone away. Your ability to oppose is meaningless. You know, if if everything you've done is just you know, trolling, trolling, trolling, negative, being a dick, always voice in that, then what happens is when it really matters. It's like crying wolf. What happens is when it really matters and you say, you know, this is what I want to do, They're like, whoa, this is what you've always done. We don't like that. So, I mean, it's it's tricky because as hunters and outdoorsman and passionate passionate conservationists, if we take the high road, then what will happen is when we truly have to fight for something that matters, we'll have a voice. But if you burn that, man, we're not gonna have it. Yeah, And I think that this conversation is like it's never ending because all the things and that you do when you're hunting, all the little rituals we have and traditions we have, and things we think are normal that maybe um to the rest of the world might not be. I mean, those are all important, Like all the complexities of hunting are important to the grander scheme of it. So it's not like you can you can change the way you take grip and grand photos, but then at the same time, you know, also shoot off the hood of your truck or at this like at the same time also just for it about conservation its principles and not learn anything about our system of of um or our model of wildlife in this country. So it's like you hunting kind of asked a lot of you, you know, it asked a ton of you, both in knowledge and skill, but also and just to be able to deduce what's good for the grander um platform, which that's freaking hard, man, Like, there's no way. A lot of people just want to go out and get some meat or go out and have a good time, and and um, asking them all to take part in that to that extent can be tough. But I think just having the conversation and you being willing to talk about it in this way rather than just being you bullshit and drinking beers talking about whatever I appreciate because it's I mean, somebody might listen to this and come out with just a slightly different perspective or or just one of the things we've said is helpful to them, then great, man, Hell yeah, because that's what That's what helped me become a better hunter. Listening to guys like you and listening to guys like Ronnella Remy Warren talked about their experiences and that ship that made me better, maybe way way better. Well, I couldn't agree with you more, dude, I couldn't agree with you more. Um, that's a good place to end it. I think, Uh, we're done. Now until what did you say, the end of April, when we're going somewhere real special, you want to break the news to everybody where we're going and who's coming with yep, just so everyone out there knows come April. The end of April, um, I would say the most I don't know, I don't even know how to say it. It's the most ununbelievable band of brotherhood and I don't even know, don't we don't even have a name for ourselves. But let's not name ourselves because then it starts to get a negative vibe on it. But literally, Lenai is gonna be taken over by me, Ben sam sohol Shane Dorian, Remy Warren, Adam Green Tree, Joe Rogan, cam Haignes. I think that's it. I feel like you had a lot of momentum to keep going appearances by Kimmy, Green Tree and Fresh. That's a large, large crew. I mean, there's a there's a lot going on there. But I will say that what's cool about that and where we're going at the end of April is that you know, we start playing these trips and you're like, may we we can't go without Green Tree Ship we can't go without Remy Man. We can't go without cam. Now, we can't go without Rogan, we can't go without Dudley. And it just becomes this awesome group of people that are all passionate about the same thing and all just want to hang man, like you gotta have you gotta have everybody. So this is the first time we've been able to like assemble the entire dream team of of people that like to go hunting. I'm looking forward to it. Dynamite. Oh well, we'll we'll certainly talk more about that in the days to come. But thanks for talking to me, John Dudley. Oh yeah, brother, appreciate it. Until next time. Bye bye. All right, Oh that's the end. That's the end of episode number four. Thank you so much to John Dudley man from knock On, one of my favorite people in the industry. Appreciate him having that conversation with me. And really took a lot away from it. I really took away an inside take from the mind of somebody that's influential and our circles and cares about that influence and it really wants it to be authentic and wants to drive it in the right way. I appreciate John for that. He's a great dude. If you want to hear any of the other podcasts we put out thus far, go to iTunes or Stitcher or the Hunting Collective dot com, where you can hear from Steve Ranella, a meat eater. You can hear from Brian Callahan of First Light, you can hear from Aubrey Marcus CEO of on It, and this continued conversation that we call the Hunting Collective very much. Appreciate it as always. You can follow me at Benny O B three oh one, Come check us out on Instagram. That's really where all the conversations happening. I just want to say I appreciate everybody who writes in, who's commented, emailed. We're gonna do a whole show here coming soon, just with the email thoughts and commentary, because you guys are all part of this conversation that we're having, and I appreciate every comment, good and bad. Please keep him coming. I'd like to also thank our sponsors. There aren't any, but if you're listening and you want to sponsor, let me know, because we're poor. Come on anyway, that's it for today. Much appreciate all of you. I love you. Hi.

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