00:00:04 Speaker 1: Clean your Gun, Janioro, where the Uncollective show Colin Hunters New and all uncollective show with thanks or fancs that opinions are subjective. You're listening to the collecting. Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am, of course Ben O'Brien, and I'm enjoined by Phil t Engineer. What did you did you just take a drink of something? There? Phil? What was that? It wasn't a white claw? Wasn't no? No, it's ten. I guess it is new on a Friday. I'd say it's it's open season for white claws, but it's been open season for at least three hours now. This is a peach pair Lacroix Peach pear, peach pear Classic one. If they're more odd flavors, that I think is actually pretty good. Lastly, gentleman, well, we got a big recruitment news today. Um. Not only are we gonna have Nuri Hong on from our California chapter, which which is by far our hottest chapter. I'm gonna say I'm gonna use the term hottest chapter of all the chapters we have in the t HD Cults uh chapters I don't know how. I still don't know how to kind of like articulate what's going on there. But so we're gonna have nurra da. Nobody does Nouri's coming in a minute, but me and Phil more like, I just had a brilliant idea about how to get more listeners. We were just checking on our WiFi and I had an idea. You gotta there's somebody near you that has interesting WiFi name. Do they not feel? Yeah, you know, some people try to be funny and tell their jokes through their WiFi their router names. I say, don't do that. You're not as funny as you think you are. But there's someone in my neighborhood who has their WiFi router is named bark Dogs Screaming Toddler, which is just a very passive, aggressive message to a lot of the young families in this neighborhood. Uh And personally, I'm offended. Maybe it's an admission of guilt. It's like a thing that they're saying, I have barking dogs and screaming Toddler's I'm sorry about that. That's maybe you know label me if you must, I've got I just pulled mine up, I've got Bippie link Demon Portal. It's amish time. The viper pit and the viper pit guest, uh make WiFi great again? Two G Marty mcwifi. Five G WiFi is solid. That's a good one. That's a good back. That's funny. That's pretty good. All right, Well I'll take it. I that literally, I just clicked on that. I've never written any of those before, and I'm I'm proud of my neighbors. Uh So, if you're one of my neighbors, well done. Um. But I think here's an idea of how to you know, grow the podcast underground. If you have WiFi, which I'm assuming that you do, name it each either name it Phil T. Mango or you can also name it like listen to the Hunting Collective podcast. And if we get thousands and thousands of wifis named after our podcast, I think we'll grow intrinsically. When people are accidentally connect to the Hunting Collective Podcast WiFi, they're not gonna know what to do about. They're gonna have to listen at that point once they're connected, right Phil, Uh yeah, Ben, sure they'll have to. Okay, Thanks, I thanks for your support as always, I before we get to anything else, I do want to say big, big stuff coming up in uh in my life. It's Turkey season. I told you last week about the turkey tour we're doing with the First Light a little bit more detail. We're doing a four state turkey tour. I'm gonna tell you what the states are. Please don't try to come find me. I'm trying to avoid you. Um so if you want to come home with me, please email. Don't just try to find me in the woods. We are doing Montana and then South Dakota and then Wyoming and then Nebraska. Four states two weeks. I will be out in the field for two straight weeks. Most of that time I spent sleeping on the ground in a tent or in a truck or something dirt bag like. I couldn't be more excited for this, Phil How do you? Does that sound like something you would want to do? Two weeks in the dirt chase around turkeys. You gotta get up at like four every morning, go bet at like man, I say nine. Uh, it's relentless. But I got seven turkey tags I could possibly fill within those fourteen days. I mean, I'm excited for you. Ben Um, I've never been happier for you. I think you're you're gonna have a great time. What what about when I had my child, like a year ago. Where do you have you're happier now than then? Well, I'm just trying to gauge your happiness, and to be honest, like you seem way more stoked about this turky, this Turkey tour than than having a child. So I'm just feeding off of your energy here. Okay, don't blame it on me, But I was just thinking, because we have we haven't really got into like the actual logistics of the hunt we're gonna do the first week of May. People stop asking when Phil's first son is. By the way, it's the first week in I've been saying it for months. First week I may, Um, that's when it's happening. But but would you would you go out for with me for like a week and sleep in tents and chase turkeys or would you do you think you would you eventually grow tired of such exercise. I could probably last last one week, okay, one week, not not much longer. I don't think that's that's nothing against you. I don't know if I could last longer than a week with with anybody except for like my my wife. Uh, Okay, I'm just I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to secretly gauge where you're at here, how many how many nights I can make you sleep outside to find a turkey? Yeah, I can tell, Which is why, which is why I'm being kg. I'm trying to I'm not trying to open the door for anything. So okay, you don't want me to be like, hey man, I got a plan. Uh, that's fine, That's all fine and that. So hopefully you guys can all follow along what I'm doing many of the three or one on Instagram, I'll be posting all kinds of stuff there. But we are doing a bit of a tell than for the National Wild Turkey Federation. We've talked about ways to raise money for them, and really they're their primary source of funding is through memberships, and so we're gonna be working with first Light, uh to promote over those two weeks that were gone, to promote the fact that we're out there, and then pushing people to a page on the First Light website where you can sign up for your NBTF membership or renew it and you'll have a chance at a bunch of awesome prizes cool gifts if you take part and sign up for membership on that portal through first Light. So if you want to get more details, this will be coming out, you know, uh, next week when I'm already on the road. I'm already doing this. So when you're listening to this, you'll be able to go to first Light social media account, You'll be able to first light dot com. Keep checking there, and this will debut at some point when around in the field, and it'll go for two weeks, so they'll probably some delay in terms of us making the content and get into the air waves. But um, we'll be checking in next week from Turkey Camp with the likes of Kevin Harland or probably for Van Fawsen, Jason Tara Water from n WTF. We've got a bunch of wildlife biologists from the areas that will be hunting, that will be filling us in on the specific projects from those states. So I'm excited to go Turkey out but also excited to shed some light on the important projects at least in the West. For n WTF gets you to meet some of their folks and hopefully raise some money for them and get some memberships in the door because as we mentioned, uh, they'll be losing some of those this year without really the gatherings and the banquets and the things that they would normally do. So hopefully we can help them. And then I'll be returning, and all my focus when I return will be on Phil. I already wrote that in my journal. Don't forget about Phil, and I'm gonna stick to Okay, Phil, We're good. Yeah, thanks Man means a lot, no, no, no problem, no problem. All right. Now we gotta bring in Nury Nuri. Can you hear me? Are you there? I'm here? All right? Um, so we got a lot. There's a lot of things I want to ask you. But first, um, how is it that you came to to be involved in in our one, our California chapter, but to just like what was as I asked when we had Luke from Nebraska last time, what what is the motivation to do what you're doing right now in the California chapter of our podcast Cult Thing? Sure? Well, first off, thanks for letting me come on and represent what we're doing and talk about it. H And if I talk in ramble too much. Just tell me to shut up, because I'm very excited about it, and I think I represent the excitement and enthusiasm amongst all the chapter leaders. Um, it's pretty cool and exciting what we're doing. So for myself, list be calm. You're on a podcast. You can talk for hours and I don't think anybody minds. All right, go. So to answer your question, I'm a new hunter. I at this stage of my life. I've been learning, listening to podcasts, reading, getting accommated to this entire culture. Um. I come from a completely a background where I am not prepared to go out and hunt. Um. So this is something that I've been building towards and I really want to learn how to hunt personally. And I've been listening to your podcast for a long time. And when this opportunity or this whole initiative started to take some uh you know, started to take off in your grassroots way, I just thought I should raise my hand because I want to one participate in what's going on with with connecting mentors and men and mentees. But I also felt that just building a community was really important. It's something that I personally don't have. Um, I don't have many friends or any really that hunt. And I thought if we can create a community that that would be valuable to everybody. And if we create that community, what could that become in terms of beyond just teaching people how to hunt? But what can we do to educate other people who may not appreciate hunters as much? And how do we get them to appreciate what I've learned along this journey. And that's really my personal motivation of wanting to do this, because I want to share what I've learned with everyone else, whether or not they want to hunt, hunt or just understand it. I want to educate as many people as possible. Yeah, I mean it sounds a lot, a lot like where I came from when I started this podcast. You know, it's like you, you want to share what you've learned. You understand that there are so many perspectives coming in to the hunting space and within and without of course, um and it's been great. I mean, what do you, guys, what you have done in such a short time number from raising your hand on, I will commend you as being probably you know, the most thoughtful and leadership oriented one of our chapter leaders, and so uh kudos to that. It's been fun to see you one, UM, come together with a bunch of people from across this country that have amazingly different backgrounds, you know, to see you guys interacting in the way that we have thus far has been uh is I would there's no other word than than joyous for me to see UM as kind of the realization of some things I've had in my mind for a long time. So first, thank you for that, UM, And I want to get an update on on how it's going in on your chapter page on Facebook. But then just you know, I know you're prepared to update us on on everything that's going on, but let's start with California. Sure, UM, And by the way, I appreciate your comments around you know, just my voice and what's been going on. I actually want to say one thing before get started around that, because that's probably the biggest takeaway what you've been trying to do in this mission of educating people, articulating what is it that you find valuable and these ethics that you believe in and these more you know, these values that you believe in. That for me has been the excitement of everybody involved wanting to share that and then also accepting someone like me is incredibly powerful. The fact that we this is a These are viewpoints that unite all of us, despite our backgrounds and diverse you know, political perspectives, cultural perspectives. We've all come into this and it's almost like this, uh, the community of people that immediate have a bond and love each other. And I think that's what you're reflecting, is that excitement that everyone has felt. So I just want to say thank you for giving us the opportunity because it's been empowering to all of us to see what we can do. And I think that that's building a lot of momentum around this whole initiative. Yeah, I've said that a few times, you guys, We've don't We've we've gathered like love you guys, And I'm like, I kind of mean that, man, but just in a in a way that I don't know you, but conceptually I love you guys, um and and I think that's it's it's because of what you just said. And one thing that I would reflect on from from that is when when people can come together around complex issues that are hard to figure out, it is generally the antithesis of what we see in our culture right now. People are being divided by complex issues. We're chopping those issues up and using them to to cudgel each other, um, and to divide and when we can all kind of be able like, yeah, we appreciate these complex ideas. We may not agree, but boy, let's go let's see what we can figure out. You know that to me is is is this uh beautiful thing as we can get to so point to be made completely agree. And I think to that point, as we as we give you the update around what's going on nationally with our our regional chapters, I think that another key point is we have let me look at my numbers here. I took some notes here, thirty five active regional chapters, thirty six including Nevada. This includes Australia, Canada, a military chapter, and you know, a couple of regions that have been multi states combined. Um. I think one of the incredible things of that enrollment, just in such a short period of time, it does speak to the fact that hunters and people who are interested in this are everywhere and it's not a political, you know issue, it's not a partisan issue. People who have the values and the interests in the ethics that we're talking about are everywhere. And again, I think that speaks to the fact of what this can become in terms of a uniting issue and overcoming some of the division that we see in our society day. I mean personally, that's part of what has motivated me to join this because I want to share that just like you said, yeah, that's great man. Um, how many totals? Did you get? The number of total people we have in all those in those thirty six So let me give you the total. So are totals right now as of uh, let's see yesterday, So yeah, yesterday afternoon we have Um, I'm sorry, let me get the numbers. A little over total members across the states. So again, that's thirty five chapters that are active with sites today. The top ten regional chapters have account for about seventy one of total membership. That's seven regions that have over one hundred members apiece. A number of regions have members and a number of other remaining regions have you know, a variety depending on just when they got started and how active they've been to date. UM. With regards to the top ten States. California is leading the way with six hundred and fifty. I think it's actually six hundred sixty as of this morning. UM. That's followed by Arizona and our admin leader, Markdale and they have two hundred. Montana admin leader Lewis Johnson with one. Two in Colorado led by ryan' septa and Riley Nelson was on and I'll just finish the other top two with over a hundred. Washington State led by Chris Stalker has a hundred and fourteen. Australia led by Zach Slattery has a hundred and thirteen. And Zach is amazing guy. I mean, I think it's awesome. I think we've named him the three Eyed Raven or the Thunder from down Under, depending on which nickname you want to pick. I don't. I'm not. I'm not gonna go Thunder from down Under. That's been taken. I just say it's not fair, Zach that you have an entire continent. I just don't you know, come on, you should have thousands by now. But now I will say this this as a as a little interstitial to your to your numbers run down, Phil, you have been ound on Facebook, so your your account has been discovered. And I didn't make it very difficult to find me. Here's here's my name, and here's what my profile picture is. And I have gotten hundreds of friend requests. I haven't approved a single one of them. Yeah, you have been outed, av Rich shout out to a by risk. He was the first one to out you. Uh, it's your your account, filthy e with that beautiful photo of the mountains at the end of the road. I think I googled mountain. So you've been outed. Your your your burner account is now public. Uh, even though you said it in public last last week, but they found you, and you're now you're gonna have to do something. Join one of the chapters. Uh, and maybe all the chapters. You're gonna have to do something. It's time to step up. Nurry's over here. He's running a biotech company in his free time, you know. And uh, what have you got going on? Nothing? You're just editing podcasts? Point Yeah, get it together. Okay, we'd like to see some performance out of you. Phil. Are you going to join the Montana Yeah, we're not gonna let We're not letting you into the leader page because you've not yet earned that you've got to go out there and get You've got to go out there and get and you know, get involved on the state and regional level. Please, how you guys keep talking, I'll do it live on the podcast. I will join the Montana chapter. Oh my gosh, we've done it. We finally got Phil his hunter safety course took six months and only took him two weeks to join a chapter of the Hunting Collective. Welcome Philly, I've done it. Soon you'll be a new hunter, and then all will have been solved, all the world's new hunt and hunter problems will have been solved. Um Ner, You've got a bunch of you've been posting, and I've been reading them all, a bunch of really cool stories, not only from your page and your chapter in California, but from across uh M, across the country. But I would I would love for you to go into a couple of stories that you've had well of new hunters, and we had one particularly disabled hunter who's just out there kicking ass. Like, give us a few few folks you'd like to highlight from from across that two thousand person number. Absolutely, And I gotta say before I do that, sorry, I forgot. I wanted to call out my co co leader in California, Jordan Rigsby. So Jordan and I tag team and we leave that chapter the way that I would describe that as Jordan is the QYB of this effort, and I'm a loud cheerleader on the bench that's looking to get in the game. So I do write a lot and I make a lot of noise, but I wanted to acknowledge Jordan's and everything that he's done to really help recruit the numbers in California. And I also want to give a shout out to his his friend Brad Gillipsby Gillespie, who's part of our our chapter and the Gillespie fan our clan, sorry of Alan, Brittany and Brad have each recruited hundreds of members. So I just wanted to give a shout out to some key people who have been really influential and just getting this off the ground, especially Jordan's my my co chapter leader, and and you guys didn't know each other before this, right, No, we we met. I didn't know a single person involved in this until this started. And like I said, we've had so many you know, earlier. We have had many happy hours together and it feels like I've got new friends in every state and friends that are willing to show me out to hunt, and you know, I just want to spend time together. So it's pretty cool, I just said selfishly. Now I have a place to hunt in all most most of the states in the nation, and so you know, you gotta get something out of a cult. So I'll provide the cool. Uh. Tell us about some cool people. Man, all right, so let's tart. I mean, just a couple of really great initiatives that have been going on in successes. So I want to first give a shout out to all the other regions who I've been putting together activities and making connections. So, you know, within California, I'll go into a couple of of of really cool examples of successes. But I also want to give a shout out to all the other states that have been leading things like clean up days UH, inaugural meet and greets UH. Aaron Shawn, Oklahoma had a crawfish boil to get everyone together. Many states have organized archery you know, UM sessions together UM, and a number of states have also started to connect mentors with mentees, either through the admins helping out or just natural connections that have been made. So I want to call out those states like Washington, Colorado, North Dakota, Blue Ridge, our own Eric Hall. A lot of good mentorship going on, even in the early days of this program. That's awesome, man. I I uh, if I could be like, if you guys are having gets, you just try to zoom me in. I'd like to at least like pop into one or two of them if I can. My wife might get mad eventually, but I'd love to. I love to virtually crawfish boil. It's almost like, uh, well, yeah, I think that would be great if we could do that. And also you may regret asking for them because remember invites you're gonna be getting. I think we'll be uh maybe too much to handle. Phil. Phil will take any trickle down that I If I can't get there, Phil, can Phil can be there, right Phil? I mean if I get to eat some crawfish, then hell yeah. Yeah. We gotta see what our travel budget is for Phil. But we we could probably just fly filled pretty much every event and they'll come. They can only be there for ten minutes because he's gonna be really busy. But ten minutes of Phil is a good is good? Cal. This reminds me of something Cal brings up. This is a sneak peek for next week's Meet Eater podcast. They were talking about how this cow sometimes gets a lot of speaking engagements when it's stuff that Steve can't do. They're like, oh, we'll send Cal. Uh, that'll be like me. I'll be there. I'll be the cow of this podcast. Ben Ben can't show up, We'll just send, We'll send. Yeah. Yeah, And we already did you already tried to grow a mustache, and uh, I'd like to see you do it again. Can you start growing a mustache? Can you start start growing one now and then shave it off when you kill a turkey? No, I grew I grew one mustache for you already been that was. That's all all you're gonna get from me. I'm so skimpy. I miss you. That was a good That was a good couple of months. And that's back when we saw each other almost every day and I could really track the progress of skimpy. And you want to go, you gotta see my mustache earlier. That's uh, full full on right here. Well, I mean we we uh you know what I should. I gotta I gotta promote the Burgeraese podcast. That's just all reminds me of that. But I'm gonna read you guys a really good a Bargrease podcast with Clay Nucombe review in a second. But we gotta get you, gotta tell us about I think we probably have time for one story from you. All right, here we go, here we go. So let me just give a couple of highlights from our group. You mentioned a disabled hunter in our group, so I want to call out Eric Baker. So Eric is an inspiration to all. He's the ultimate no barrier is to a great story. Uh just briefly or it's a lifelong passionate outdoorsman. He's now disabled to various conditions that have that have afflicted him. He's wheelchair bound. But Eric has been one of the most inspirational and generous mentors on our site. He's offered his time, education and tips on the side and in person to various people. He's already established a mentee education day this coming Saturday with a young new mentor in the area, and he's shown everybody what's possible. So he has he's wheelchair bound, and in the three weeks that we've had this site up, he's already posted a successful hunt for pheasant turkey and uh, you know other accomplishments that he's he's had mentoring his grandkids. UM, and he's just an incredible inspiration to anybody who thinks that there's any reason that you can't get into the woods and learn how to hunt. Eric is I think someone that inspires all of us to say, you know, there's no barrier too great and there's nothing that should stop you from enjoying time outside. UM. Eric also has you know, I think I want to raise an issue related to his his situation, which is I don't think we talked about disability and hunting. At least that's not something that I've heard of or have you know, put on my radar screen. And Eric, you know, I think is somebody who is really trying to make that an issue that is more um, that's something that that people are more aware of. And he has a go fund me account to try to raise money for his own There are four by four altering adaptability vehicles for folks who are disabled to help them get around outside in the outdoors. And so this is basically like a four by four type of vehicle that can help disabled people. And he has a good fund me account. So I encouraged for people who want to support this kind of this community to you know, to support people like Eric, both in terms of you know, anything that you can do on you know, his his go fund me to to raise money for this altering vehicle, but also I think that we should do that because he represents I think, the best of mentorship and what we want to get out of this community. Um, and I would like to raise a artist around disability because it's not something that that our California Wildlife Department has a program around, and it's something that Eric and others I think are trying to make, you know, in an effort to to get some attention around. Yeah, that's um extremely important and I will pledge right now. I'll get some information from me, maybe a picture whatever Eric wants to share, and get that link and I'll post that up on my social media so people can can go and find that go fund me page and just go find Eric and uh yeah, imagine that people, Um, anyone would like a place to go or there's a bunch of people who appreciate what they do and appreciate their drive for life and can can them up as a role model. So if if what we're up to, Mark can provide that for anybody, especially Eric m. We look to multiply that idea and that feeling as much as we can in the coming months, years, however long this goes, absolutely and I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. One thing I will say is that now I lost my train of thought. You have to cut this out, Phil, or maybe just leave it in. You're not even listening, are you. I'm petting a cat, but I'm listening. What do you? Are you petting Kevin? Or meat loaf? I bet it's a meat loaf. That's Kevin, Kevin the son of a bitch. All right, I know, I ramble a lot. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you one more case example. Yeah, I go. We had a successful mentorship hid this past weekend. So A, a relatively new hunter, Jen lenn lives in the Bay Area, joined the chapter about a week ago. Um immediately asked for mentorship help because she's a somewhat experienced duck hunter but once you know good out there and go after other game. I saw people respond to her and say that, you know, they were going to private message or DM her. She also not completely organized by our site, but she had a mentor who has helped her in the past, a woman by the name of Belinda Dods. And both of these two have an incredible story. So one well, Linda is a professional guide. Uh, this is a career change for her. So she got into hunting after a life in corporate America and over the last four years has established herself as a guide and one of her key initiatives is really taking a new hunter and mentoring them for free, not with guided guided services. In the past she's helped with other game and they were able to go out and get into the Turkey Woods and get Jen her first caller of this past weekend UM and Jen has become an incredibly active member both in terms of representing what you know, not being afraid as a mentee to go ask for help on our board, but also just an incredible encouraging voy is to other people that are looking for that kind of support. And I would say that Melinda also represents I think the best of the you know, the professional guided community because we have a number of guides like I'll call out Bryson Welsh and Billy Rourke. These are guides who have a full time job but have offered time education and you know, their services in non paid you know, capacities as a mentor as well. And these are the kind of folks that are showing up on our board and encouraging all of us, like myself in other words, that haven't hunted, uh you know, how to get started, giving us encouragement, giving us advice, and also getting out in the field and taking people out there. So I just wanted to highlight gen and Milinda because it's pretty kick ass that these girls have gone out there. They've they've they've established this relationship between a mentor and mentee and are really trying to take that and bring that to the rest of the community, which is really the kind of culture and the uh you know, the nature of the dialogue that's been going on our site. So that's you know, I think if we can build on that kind of experience, that's the kind of thing that we are you know, really excited to be able to offer everybody within our group. Yeah, I mean you know, and that it just pushes this this, these kind of sources to push all of us like, how can we how can we do better? Even though we've gathered on these pages. If you're not if you've listened to this podcast and you've never emailed or interacted with me or anyone else, and you don't want to, you don't have to. But boy, if, if, if ever there was a chance to go and get involved in something that can really help you on a personal level, whether you're mentoring or your need in need of mentoring. I I've, like I've said before on this show, I get nothing. There's there's nothing more satisfying than mentoring somebody and showing them what you what you know and and and introducing them into your passion. There's nothing better man, and to see to see you know you Nuri like and and Jordan's leading a group of people that are are then forming their own, you know, individual missions within that is is exactly the point of of what we're up to. So couldn't be more proud to be a part of that, Bet, I mean really thank you for giving us and everybody that's had the benefit of being part of these communities to connect honestly, I think that you know, maybe my answer earlier was it could have been much more simple. The value of this is connection, the connection of the community and everything that we all share as values, and that's I think what we want to spread to the world. Yeah. Awesome man, well well, very well put, well spoken as always, and I appreciate having you around. Um, we're gonna do a chapter leader happy hour here not for long from now hof last see there as well. UM. But again I can't say anymore but that I'm proud to be a part of this, and and thank you to everybody that's joined. And if you haven't joined, you can go and easily google uh it'll be th HC. And then the state or region that you're looking for. And if and of course, as many of you have done, send me a message if you can't find it or you're having trouble uh getting too where you need to be in terms of the state or region that you're in. UM, happy to drop a link in your inbox or your d M s or something. If you're confused or you can't find and you want to get in there and connect with folks like Nuri. This is your chance to do it and now we got to get to fill the return of doctor Robert C. Jones. Are you ready for this? Yes? I am, let's do it. I have actually no, wait a minute, let's do it again. Are you ready for this? Phil? You're yawning? And it's what do you want me to say? Ben? What? What reaction would you like me to have? Would like you to have that tone? Just tell what you just heard? Inspiring? Nuri's inspiring the world over here, and you're just like pet and a cat, you know, like, what the hell is wrong with you? Get you? I can't wait to get you in the Turkey woods. I'm gonna make you. I'm gonna you know what the guides used to say. They would would make people go on a disciplinary hike. When a client was acting up. They would just take him for a walk all day and never even actually look for deer. Um, I'm and I have to take you in a couple of those kids. And I know my lane near he's out here doing important inspiring work. Uh. And I I'm betting you know you couldn't have made me look worse by saying he's petting a cat, But I was. I was petting a cat. Well, nery was that's fine. You look, you look great. Man. Cats don't pet themselves, well I guess they kind of do, so, you know, take care of your You're being an animal rights kind of guy, exactly. Phil the animal rights representative for the THHD podcast. That's right, thank you, we love you, Phil Um. When I asked Robert C. Jones, I talked to him like a week ago, and I said, listen, man, we've been talking about this idea of the North American model the wildlife conservation and how to either fuse this animal rights ideology into it or at least create a parallel universe where there is a model that that it lease takes into account animal rights and the way that they think about wildlife. So I've asked him to do that. I gave him a couple of days to prepare and we will see what he can do. Right now, enjoy dr Robert C. Jones for the third time. Robert, how are you, sir? Ben O'Brien, it's it's so good to connect with you once again. Oh man, it is good to see you. And uh, you're drinking a Seltzer water. I am going with a white claw because it is Friday, and uh this is the mood that I'm in. Um, how are you, sir, how are you? I'm doing well. I can't complain. Uh, you know, it's I mean, aside from that the fact that there's a global pandemic at least it's looking like it's coming to an end. But I'll do than that. It's the middle of the semester of my students are getting ancy for May to come, so I think I'm getting ancy from May to come. So yeah, same here, same here. I think in in in our part of the world, every time the sun shines, people just run outside. They don't know what they're doing out there, but they're out there. A lot of people, yeah, a lot of people. A lot more hunters out there, a lot more hikers and bikers and people that are wanted to spend time outside, which I enjoy. All the way around, people are going stir crazy. So I get I get it. Damn I get it. Damn right, damn right. Well, I told you there's a lot of things we could talk about. But I told you that, Uh we've had since we've last talked to you. I think we talked you what over the summer there in the middle of the lockdown or at some point. Yeah, it was the last summer. Yeah. Yeah. Since then, we've had some other conversations with animal rights activists, particularly fella named Paul the Sheer, who uh is the head of this thing called Anonymous for the voiceless animal rights activists, And it was it was a contentious conversation, but also at the end, I think we both appreciated each other much much more than we did than we did going in. He came into it quite combative, um, but at the end we were we both pretty much felt pretty good about each other. Um. We didn't walk away hand in hand, but we gained some respect there, which I was happy about. But since since we got into that idea with him, we got essentially I need that conversation with him, I should say. There's just been an idea float around in my head. And I mentioned on the podcast a bunch that we have this North American model of wildlife conservation. I talked about it all the time because it's a model, so we can refer to it specifically, right. It's it's something that we've explicitly said that manages the way wildlife functions within the current system of game laws and the current system of of everything really from um economics to ecology. So I wanted to just I've been saying, I wonder if we can either do one or two things, achieve one or two things. One, take animal ethics and animal rights and bake it into the current model and somehow make that work as an expression of your You know, what you and I have been doing for almost a couple of years now is trying to get take one step closer to each other after we've we kind of started far away and doing that. And then also, is there in your mind either a parallel system that could work with animal rights or something that you could envision creating that could you know, either replace or somehow um CO exists with our current model. Uh. And so yeah, that's where that hasn't that It's been a it's been a long exploration of years and years trying to get to a point where like, what can we do tangibly to discuss this in real ways? And so I wondered if if you would take part in that. I don't have any answers myself, but I figured if there's anybody, I was going to spend an hour trying to figure it out. What it would be you. Well, thanks man, I appreciate that. Now, when you said you want to you want to talk about real, real world things we can do. I think it may have slipped your mind that I'm a philosopher by trade, so I'm an amateur philosopher. So the philosophers are naturally out of the real world, and so everything's at the level of theory. So no, but you know, as you know, I consider myself an activist as well. Um, absolutely, I think. Uh. Well, one thing I was wondering, and you could help me too, is if you can give me what you see as a kind of brief summary of what the us um kind of management, an overview of what you think the maintenance are the policies are sure that essentral to ye and I think, Um, and we've had the you know kind of it's a long history of the North American model, but it was it was really codified by a fellow named Dr Valarious Geist who we had on the show and he's explained this entire history and then and brought to bear by Shane Mahoney who's been on the show many many times and it's coming on with us next week. Um. He brought it to the masses. He's an incredible order. And so really what those guys did was take a bunch of ideas that started at the turn of the century and really what we could call like a revolution um of environmentalism mixed with you know, conservation that happened at the turn of the century with Teddy Roosevelt, Um, Giveford pin Show, every John Muir, you know, and all kind of turned at at the turn of the century. So there's a lot of legislation that happened in those eighty years. It just so happened that Dr Vlarious guy said we have a model. He was once challenged that there was no model for wildlife conservation in America, and he said, we have a model, And by god, he went and sat down and wrote the thing. And here we are. They actually just put a book out last year called The North American Mile of Conservation is on my shelf. I'm looking at it, um, and so I guess that's this. This model was away um to take the things that began in the eighteen sixties where sportsman's and advocates for for conservation organized and they're just saying, we want to preserve wildlife or preserve wilderness areas we want to bring back from the brink many of these wildlife populations that us humans real funked up real bad over the prior since we landed and landed here. And so that's I guess that's the genesis of where this came from. And then again somebody had to actually put it into words at some point UM. And this goes all the way back to the boon A Crockett. So the thing has I should probably pull it up side and get them wrong. The thing has seven tenants, and and those seven tenants are are meant to really elaborate on and then kind of build a construct around how we manage manage wildlife, how we value wildlife, the purposes for which we would kill an animal, and then how our system is set up to allow science too to be a tool to discharge our wildlife policy. And again one of the main tenants is that wildlife is held in public trust right by the states. UM. No one owns it. If there's a deer on your on your land, you don't own that dear. That dear is is a public trust and it is managed in kind by the states. UM. Given wildlife biology and policy UM is that pretty good for a foundational piece of the puzzle. Oh I lost you. I'm looking at sorry I got Yeah, that's good. Thanks, And I'm looking at the core tenants. I was looking at them, yeah, as you spoke with them and so yeah, so this I just pulled it up myself. So there's seven of them. I always always get them out of order or miss them. But wildlife is a public trust, which I just which I basically just described, and that has its origins in um, really English common law. Know that that really said wild life was owned by the ruling class, the aristocracy, UM, which which in some cases, by by nature privatized said wildlife. UM. And now we're going to say that, you know, wildlife is held in trust for the public, and it's going to be managed and within that trust by the state and federal governments, UM, who we pay with our tax dollars and and with our license fees and everything else. UM. And so that that's I would say, that's the most important one for this model, because what it really does is it grounds the other ones. UM. And if anybody wants to go back, go back. We we did with Shane Mahoney a full rundown of all seven of these, and he gave He gave them in like packages like this, this is a package, and here's a package, and here's one. They all kind of interplay, but they they make sense in this way. Um, so you want to go you want to go one by one or or go all all the way through? Well, I mean we can go one by one. I think what I what comes to mind for me is to just kind of step back and think about maybe and a little bit of a summary or an overview of the way that wildlife management is conceptualized in like the animal rights community, maybe you know, people who aren't familiar with it. I think the first thing that comes to mind for me, as you know, when I teach environmental ethics, which I do teach, the first thing I want to point out, and again, you know, I'm a philosopher, so we think we kind of like try to do these conceptual analyzes and stuff. The first thing to recognize is the notion of wilderness. Right there. Then the concept of wilderness that we and say, let's say we in the Western let's say we in the United States have it's a certain way. You could say it's a it's a construct, but it's a way of think being about the world that it's not universal, right, I mean, um, the distinction if a lot of indigenous cultures indigenous to the United States, at least through the histories that we understand, the notion that there's like a wilderness out there is is a weird idea, right. So, so first of all, and of course this comes from Europe and stuff, but so so the first thing I just want to lay on the table is that for many environmental ethicists, the first recognition is that the very concept that wilderness is is a construct. So so it's not like we have humans and then we have the separation, and that's and that divide between humans and nature and wilderness that lies at a at the heart of a lot of the differences between animal rights people and say, um, you know, conservationists. So so now I'm not here to have a debate about whether or not wilderness is a construct. It's just I think it's an interesting thing because when I first years ago, when I first read about it, it certainly struck me as weird, like, oh yeah, I just assumed that there's this thing out there and it's the wilderness, and it's separate from me Um. And the other thing that's interesting too is if, and I'm sure you know, the history of the notion or the history of the concept of wilderness, at least in West, in the West in Europe, it's gone through different phases, right, I mean the model that we have today, which is sometimes referred to as kind of the Romantic model, which is that you know, this kind of thorow, this kind of this model of the innocence and purity of the wilderness, and Ralph Waldo Emerson and going back to Rousseau in philosophy, that there's something good about nature, is something pure uncorrupted about nature. That's a recent phenomenon in the West as well, right, I mean, if you go back to the original say, say, let's just say the like the Mayflower Land in sixteen twenty, that view of wilderness was a kind of like hostile, unholy place filled with you know, uh, unholy uncivilized people. So and then you have different models as as as they they evolve over the years. But what I'm just trying to point out is that both the notion of wilderness and the model that we have a wilderness as this kind of pristine, pure thing to preserve or to conserve. These are these are historical phenomena. These aren't They're not universally found all over the world by you know, all different cultures. So I think it's important for us first recognize that we're operating under a construction of the way that we sort of carve out wilderness in our culture, and you know, for good or for bad. I'm not even making a judgment. I'm I'm merely trying to make the point that as as is, whenever we're studying any topic, it's a good idea to see it in perspective and say, Okay, I see what we're talking about. You know, there's the animals are out there, and the trees are out there, and and that's and it's pristine and all of that are all of those ways are ways that we have adopted, at least in the West. Um. Now, I might be saying something totally obvious to everyone who's listening, and if so, I apologize, But but I think that the history on this is interesting to me. Um. Yeah, yeah, I think I'm like you, I really like to think of things in the theoretical and I think it's it gets us because there are and we can talk about them in a little bit, but there are like Forest Service federal government wilderness classifications, like we're going to treat this chunka ground differently than this chunker. But that's not what you're talking about here. We're talking about this idea of how we see these quote unquote wild play aces, you know, like what do we what's the value system around them, and and what do we do? What do we do in them? Um? Because there's a lot of people in the hunting space that have have kind of evolved through years to really want to protect wilderness, to not want motorized vehicles there, to not want motorized boats there, to want to keep these places um as pristine as they can. And there's a separate group within hunting that sees that as um like elitist that sees that as well, you know, if I if I can, why can't I bring my a TV? You're gonna tell me to stay You're gonna tell me to stay out and you can stay in. Isn't that the same kind of aristocracy that we built, just a cultural aristocracy and not a you know, and not an actual class based aristocracy, Or maybe it is that even that so there's you know, we probably speak in different languages here, but but I think at its core, we even in the hunting space, have this idea of what is wilderness, how do we protect it? And what do we do? And and can we can we manage to have this much wilderness in a world where we just consume, consume, consume, consume um, not only not only the animals, but the environment which they were. The obvious answer to that question is no, we can't. But but but one, so one one other thing that comes to mind for me, And you mentioned you know, uh, early twentieth century, you know, Pin Show and mirror, and I think there's an interesting distinction that you spoke in passing of conservation and then you spoke about preservation and you know, historically, if you think about Pin Show versus John Muir, those are two different ways to think about the environment. And it seems to me that and again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the issues of wildlife management assume a conservationist kind of model. In other words, the model that there exists this thing out there and it's nature, and it's natural and it's good, and we'll use science to manage it. And but but ultimately the public lands and the public resources are there to serve us. There there there, in a sense, a kind of resource to be managed, and that is classic pin show. And on the other hand, someone like John Muir, who was associated with a kind of preservationist view, is that our job is just to preserve and let this thing be as beautiful as it is. It's it's a kind of reverence, you know, a kind of you can see it as as the role that humans play is too is to experience transcendence. But it's not for us. It's not a resource. Right. So I think that's important when thinking about the animal rights thing that we're talking about when you mentioned the beginning, and that is the animal rights view is much more of a preservationist view in the sense that kind of says animals these sentient, you know, complex socially really complex beings. Um, they're not ours to manage because they're not resources. There beings. Right now, now, you might step back and go like, well, humans are resourced. I mean, at my job, there's a thing called human resources, right and so but of course that that sort of modifying of humans is something that you know, I'm sure you would agree like we you and I are on You and I. A lot of places where you and I overlap are in looking at sort of modernity as encroaching on what's good, right. I mean, you and I, as you've mentioned before in our conversations, we may have we may have gone and stepped in different directions, but we both we both have these kinds of values that we share. And you know, the whole idea that humans are commodities or humans or resources that takes us away from important values. And so I think what I'm getting at is the sort of preservationist a model dovetails nicely with the animal rights model in that the animal rights people are going to say, look, the whole idea that nature is to be managed as as as something for the good of human beings, that's just totally anthropocentric. It's totally it's it's it's a wrongheaded, misguided way to think about wilderness and nature. And what we're supposed to be doing is, at least on the animal rights front, what what we're supposed to be doing is we're supposed to be respecting animals as autonomous, sentient beings and allowing them to live the lives that and and and exist in the kinds of ecosystems that they exist in. And so perhaps what we can do is is is to facilitate animals having as much autonomy and this kind of stuff as possible, but not to interfere with it. So so I think at the bottom line, when we think about wildlife management, I think it's important to see that there's there is a radical departure from the idea of wild the very concept of wildlife management. To a lot of animal rights people, what they want to say is it's just it's just the wrong way to even look at the situation. You're you're going into it, you're frontloading it by saying there's this, there are these animals and they need to be managed, and that that's where. So even before we jump into you know, well, is there a way to integrate an animal rights view into a progressive or or a flourishing wildlife management view, it's important to to stake out the distinctions and say um, and say, uh, the very view that the grounds wildlife management is needs to be questioned, at least from the animal rights perspective. Yeah. No, I think what you just outlined there was is really at the core of what has conflicted me over the years with with my own hunting. You know, in the commodity like I commodity, I look at animals as commodities sometimes, you know, I say, I was, we talked about this show last week, that if I can kill ten turkeys, then I can feed my family white meat from my own hand for the most in the entire year. Right, So I look at it as like ten to your point, I don't leave like I'm gonna go kill ten sentient beings. I look at it as I look at it as I can go get ten turkeys. But I'm comfortable with one. The value system that has created inside of me, right, I don't feel in the people around me, don't feel as if um and you and I were talking before the show a little bit about our our little chaps in the chapter leaders, and you've always asked me. You said, like, are you like a unicorn? I think you're thoughtful? Are you like the only one? Are these ideas like kind of unique to you? Um And I guess it's starting to become clearer that not only are they not unique to me, I think they're compelling to people that never heard them before. And I think what you just said is also compelling to people that have never heard them before. But to take a few steps back, I've I've always looked at somebody asked me, like, what is hunting from a conservation level? How do those two things go together? Because there is a phrase in hunting that says hunting is conservation. I said, well, that's not right. Hunting is hunting, and conservations conservation, and and to your point, preservation is preservation. All those things kind of sitting next to each other. But they're not all the same thing. Um. Foundationally, they're all pretty damn different actually. Um. But for me, I always say, like, hunting is the sustainable use of a natural resource. Now, me saying that obviously goes against what you just detailed there, which is that why is an animal and natural resource for you? You know? Um? And that's why I would imagine that's the core of the argument, like if they're not a natural resource, um, what are they? And how do we cohabitate with them? And how do we manage those conflicts that come with that cohabitation? Um? And the other thing that I guess makes me comfortable with given that statement to that, given that answer to that question is one I've seen how treating animals as a natural resource has allowed people to value them in deeper ways than I ever thought possible. And then the North American model comes in when it's like, we're not just doing this haphazardly. We've looked at this, We've given seven tenants. They all kind of they're not perfect. Boy, they could always be modernized. Um and and O. Our our community is trying to do that as we speak, but they at least allow guardrails for what has been really a really productive a hundred years for for wildlife that we say, our game animals. And so I look at it kind of in those stages, and um, I've asked myself the question that you just kind of pose there, which is is the basis of what I do wrong, like the commoditization the natural resource thought about an animal, because certainly when I interact with animals, I don't when I'm in the face of an elk, I don't like, oh, there goes a natural resource. I see the individual elk, you know, I see it's I have to learn its behavior. I have to learn how it interacts with other elk and where it lives and what it thinks, and so in that sense, I see it as an individual. But in the sense of conservation, I have to then pull back and maybe you can convince me that I'm just trying to convince myself that that natural resource statement UM holds up in court. Maybe it doesn't hold up in court. And I've always wondered that UM as a as just a function of of challenging my own worldview and challenging the dogma that I was presented when I stepped into the hunting space. And that's where I sit right now after three years of talking about and as usual, Ben, you're very you're very thoughtful about this stuff, and I hope you're right that you are sort of emblematic of the way that hunters think, because that's a you know that. I mean, look the stereotypes, and you know, the stereotype of the animal rights person is you know, the throwing blood on the person wearing a fur coat, and the stereotype of the hunters shoot everything that moves kind of. So it's nice to hear, as I say, every time we have a conversation, it's nice that you're so thoughtful, and that's representative of maybe the way that hunters are are are thinking, Um, can I just can I just say before you I've evolved to hunters. I'm at the point right now where I think the ideas that we're talking about are compelling to everybody that gets to listen to them. You know, I think it's it's some of these ideas have have brought hunters along that have traditionally thought different things or were fed different information and are now being exposed to it. But I think, um, we just had a guy on the show before you came on. His name is Nuri Hong, never hunted a day in his life, lives in California, is a biotech engineer in his free time, and came onto this podcast, listened to it as a non hunter, and joined our chapter in California. Is now our chapter leader, and is is not only hunting himself, but but leading a community of people that have been doing it for years and years and years longer than him, and and in our space, that is like insane that that happened. You know, he is a leader of hunters, but he's only a leader because he's embraced the ideas that we're talking about in their totality at least at least the exploration. Well, one of the things that you said kind of jumped out of meat, and that is and I from from what we spoke about, what we're speaking about now, but also from our previous conversations, and that is um. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you you did say that, Um. You see hunting as as um or management in this conservation in this way of sustainable has to be sustainable and it's sustaining natural resources. It's sustainable. Can can you say that phrase again? Like what what's conservation to sustainable use of a natural resource? So the idea that we can if we take some, yeah, we're gonna take some, not but we're gonna but the overall health of the population will will be either maintained or forwarded, you know, like there's more dear today than ever and we can kill We kill a lot of them as hunters. So this idea that we can kill some and that's going to be a benefit to the whole and this and it also comes down to this idea that of how we view that activity where we're saying we're gonna use this natural resource for we're gonna pay into the pot, right, We're gonna buy a license, we're gonna give an excise tax, or you know, we're all we're going to have a construct which are polish our model kind of outlines that allows us to use this natural resource in a sustainable way. But boy do we have a whole lot of principles and philosophies that that make that use, um sustainable as the statement goes to, but also you know, value based and kind of locked into locked into a process. Yeah, um yeah. So one of the things that I was thinking when you were talking about that is that, um, so it seems that where you and another place that you and I we share values is that the notion that um nature, I think, wilderness, things that exist out there outside of cities and things like that, but even within cities and certain areas. But so we we don't we don't think that the proper attitude is that these things are are there to be used in any ways that I so desire. I mean, you and I've talked, we've had conversations about uh consumerism and problems with like consumption. Right, if you if you don't have the clause of sustainability, then you're left with these are natural resources for us to use. So so the sustainability aspect of of your notion of of conservation is it plays a key role, right, you can't just that's when you and I've talked about problems we have with you no factory farming. One of the problems we have is you know, it's destructive to the environment. It's totally disrespectful too, you know animals, at least that's my view. So, um, what what? So what I find interesting? There's a couple of things. One is at at heart, and I might be wrong. I think seeing nature as a resource, I think that that I don't want to say it goes against it seems to me. It puts intention, it's it puts your view in tension with your own view, which is that I don't want to think I don't. You and I we don't think of nature as a resource. It's like it's it's it's almost transcendent. It's almost there's a reverence about it. Right, and so so, first of all, going back to our original part of our conversation, it seems like for for you, I'm seeing there might be some tension where you're like, well, I have to think of it. And you talked about when you're when you're encountering an individual animal that you're gonna shoot. It's like, I have to think about this thing as a resource in the way in the way that I can, so that I can fulfill my my job. But but I also had this other thing where I think, no, that's not a resource. Like if I take a million of them and put them in a factory farm, you're gonna go They're not resources their animals, right. So that's one that's that's something I find intentions. And here's the other thing. Is the other thing is the sustainability part. As I said, that seems to play a key role. It's like we can, as you mentioned, like we can on this view, we can hunt deer as long as we're not removing so much so many deer as to mess up the ecosystem. Right, So we want to have a balance, We want to have a kind of healthy stasis. And and this is the challenge I've I've sort of raised to you in the in the past, and that is, if you don't have sustainability, then this model flies out the window. And what I want to say is, there are seven and a half billion people on the planet. Your model is not sustainable. It's not. There's no way in hell you're gonna get seven a half billion people going out and shooting ten turkey for their family for it's so so it's sustainable, it's it's maybe it's like locally sustainable. Maybe it's sustainable in certain pockets of the world. Um. But my point is in the same way when sometimes when I have are not arguments, but discussions with people about veganism, they say, well, you can't do veganism every you know, you're gonna have the Inuit, who they eat blubber, You're gonna make them eat tofu like. And what I want to say is, yeah, I agree, that's that's that's a really difficult that's a challenge. Like I could go to Whole Foods in California and get tofu. But there are indigenous people who they're hunting is a part of their lives and it's part of the sustainability. By the same token, the view that that you're expressing, it's just not sustainable at a world level. So you and I are weirdly in this. We both have our own conundrums that our views lead to that you know, it's it's it's um it's humbling. I think if you know, maybe hopefully you agree with me. I do very much agree with that. Yeah, and I think you're the tension you mentioned there. I'll take that. We'll try to take that initial point and then we'll go to kind of the sustainable part. But the tension I think is very well articulated by you. Because that tension is is. I try to deal with it in two ways, and this might be the first time I've ever tried to articulate this in a way. So that's why I love having you on, because you forced me to articulate ship that I've I've just never really put a finer point on. Practicality and emotionality. Is emotionality a word, as probably is? Uh, it's word to me too. We agree on it's a word. Yeah, if you can agree on it, its word. Um. So those two aspects of hunting for me have always been a push pull always. I've always said, I can pick up this book by Geist and Mahoney and read the North American Wildlife Conservation, and the pragmatists in me can see it clearly right. I can see where it came from, why it was created, and then I can look at the result of it, which is is pretty and arguably more proliferation of these wildife species that I care about. But then when I say I air, I've got to then take a step back and like, what do I care about? You know, do I care about a single deer or all the dear? And and I can't just say all the dear. I gotta say both, because I do care about single I do see the characteristics they have that I admire. I have an admiration for these things that's so deep and so value based that I would be a fool if to reject your notion of sentience and a full to reject your notion of of of pure rights when it comes to how autonomy really um. And so that's always been I've tried not to use the practical notion of conservation as a shield for the emotional notion of my relationship with the animals. And because those two things exist in parallel, for me, I understand the tension that that is between the two things. And I think a lot of hunters would like to say and have said to be in the past well and and and I there's a lot of parts on this where I do agree, where it's like, well, these animal rights guys, it's all emotion. There's no fact, right, it's all emotion, there's no fact. They care about the animal, but they don't care about cohabitation. They care about the animal, but they don't care about management. Um. And I always I say, yeah, I agree that a lot of the people. And that's why I love talking to you, because you don't do this. But a lot of people we talked to do straight up call on the emotion only and not the practicality or the philosophy behind it. But those that can have those conversations all at once, I think we all kind of have the same confusion, um, because we all, I mean, the way that we see animals in nature, as you mentioned, is kind of a construct of of our own humanity. You know, that relationship is constructed in our own psychology. And so I would admit, I guess to touch on that first point and recap all that the practical I see the practicality of of the North American model, and I appreciate it and I'm glad it's there because it gives me some kind of like tactile comfort that what's happening that my mind, my my my critical mind, my objective thoughts, can take it, break it down, and understand it and feel at some level comforted by comfort the emotional side of me. It's like, man, I've had a lot of emotional moments sitting over top of a dead animal, and and what is that really? You know, am I Is that a natural resource? When I sit there over this you know, dead elk, and there's emotions flooding that I probably wouldn't let anyone else see, you know, Like, is it a natural resource? Then well fuck no, it's not. Uh. And I've got to understand those two elements. And so that's why I think that the this idea of of taking the North American model and seeing if we can you like, either merge it or or have it be parallel with these two ideologies is important because it's a way to kind of shut off this, this this argument that I've fallen into and have been a part of. That's like one is emotional and one is facts. I have emotions too, I'm not all facts. Like, I have a lot of emotions when it comes to wildlife. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. So it's it's not as it's not fair for that for that part. So I mean, that's I guess that's the tension that you so accurately called out. I mean that it really is there. It exists. I think it probably exists for a lot of hunters. It definitely exists for people that come to it as adults, who we call emergent hunters on this show. It exists for them in spades because they have when you when you get introduced to killing an animal at the age of twelve, you don't have the emotional capability to understand its impact on you. And when that emotional and when that emotionality gets normalized to your teenage years, you come out the other end going animals die. That's what I do. I'm not going to think about why or how or what. You know, what I feel about this. I've been doing it since I was twelve, you know. It's the same as anything else. And so we get all these new hunters that come through the door and they go, I feel super emotional about this. Can I talk to somebody? And and twenty years ago hunter would say, no, you can't talk to me about that, Like we're not talking about the emotions of it. Get the hell out of here. Um, and so we've seen I think we've seen a bit of a change there, But I don't I don't know that there'll ever be an answer to to that tension. I don't know. I certainly don't have one at this moment. Well, Ben, I do appreciate your emotional vulnerability on the podcast today. Well, I told the listeners recently that I go to marriage counseling, and people like really, I said, yeah, this is what it is. I voted for Biden. I go to marriage counseling. I'm emotional about animals. I don't know what you want me to do. Be seriously, I think it's great that you have you you are. You are honest in that you you relate how you have an emotional response, and you know, of course knowing you how I how I do you know over these few years. That doesn't surprise me, because, um, I almost think if you don't have an emotion like you describe, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna go so far as to say like there's something sociopathic about I would say there's got to be some kind of suppression. I mean, it's a natural thing, even I mean for me, it's like I'll tell you a weird story. Yesterday I came out of my apartment and there was a B on the sidewalk in its death throws. You know, it was like the end of its life and it was just struggling and struggling. And I crushed it because I was like, it was a mercy killing bastard I did. I'm admitting it on that. But but is the point is I felt I I felt like I felt an emotional it was a B but I really, you know, I was like, I just crushed it, but I felt like I didn't want to watch it suffer. Now, um now I feel like to just not have any kind of emotion attached to it, I think, uh, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I would rather have someone say, yeah, it was really difficult and I pulled the trigger and I fed my fast emily and yeah, there was no I felt. I thought about that. That seems like, okay, well yeah, that that's that doesn't that doesn't the thing that scares me A soone who says I don't give a shit, I just shoot everything. But but but I wanted to go back to something. So you were going to also address the issue of sustainability as being like a kind of key criterion for this this view of conservation. Yeah, and I think, um, you mentioned kind of sustainability on a broad scale being impossible. Agree. I think the North American model agrees with you. It says, well, Ship, we can't do it on a continent level. We have to do it on a state level or a regional level. And most state and most, if not all that I know of the state game agencies are built on like specific regions, regional biologists who report into you know, state game agencies who have a game commissions and who are and who then um, Like in Montana, they say, here the game laws for this year, here's how many you can kill. Here's how many, here's how many animals you can go and kill. Um. Based on the population size is based only you know what, what's what we're seeing on the ground. Let's say, you know, chronic wasting disease hits a certain region, that regional biology is gonna go, We'll hold on. Maybe we can't hunt deer this year. Maybe. And so for me that sustainability can be localized. It is localized in the North American model. And I think that the geis and mahoney like hat tipped to hey man, we know that this isn't sustainable on a broad, broad level, because we know that population dynamics, the dynamics of ecosystems from one to another are different, and they do need to be seen as different, and they do need to be managed locally as locally as we can know. That's it is. It is not perfect. There's a lot of state game agencies that catch a lot of flak from hunters and non hunters alike over many things, including reintroduction of wolves. Um, you know, the the hunting of grizzly bears, and and on and on we go. We generally make that make those points around charismatic predators, but um, there's a lot of debate about things like, uh, here's something that you've probably never heard of. Antler point restrictions is something that has happened within the deer hunting population where it used to be in in many states, you could shoot any any legal deer could have spikes or above, you know, if it's it's antlers on its head. So many states have put in Antler point restrictions because they know if you allow a deer to mature, you know, that's going to help the population. So the biologists and the game commissions are saying you can't shoot them unless they have three on one side, because obviously that denotes the age and maturity of the animal, thus a healthier population given the dynamics, and so those things that I think are at play. It's not perfect. Boy, it's human. So it's it's a very imperfect way to do it, I think. UM, But at least for me, it addresses the sustainability in a very local, regional, and even ecosystem level way. Um. And And on the show, we've definitely talked about things like trophic cascade and when you when you take a predator out of a landscape board, does it do? When you put a predator back into a landscape board? Does it do? And so UM, I think that answers a bit of the sustainable question for me. UM. It also just I was thinking of this when you were talking earlier. It's it's almost as if if there were two doors and and and you said, listen, you can walk through two doors. One is animal rights. You're not gonna ever kill anything, and if you do, it's going to be with understanding that it might be merciful or it might be absolutely necessary and you know, and and you might be starving a need to eat. And then the other one is you're going to take part in this, you know, something that has sport and game like qualities, and you enjoy it and it gets it makes you feel all weird and happy, and you don't understand why killing makes you happy, but you're gonna go through that door. And on the other side, it is like an understanding and value system conclusion. I've walked through the hunting door, and I'm like, dude, I'm I don't know what the other doors like, but this one is adding am I care and adding to my value and and I don't know a life that doesn't have this, But I know what it's done for me, right, I know that. Um it's it's really understood. And I guess a good example of that, Robert would be I have a four year old son, and you know what little boys tend to like to do. They tend to like the crush bugs, you know, Like he was, I kill an ants the other day and and I sat him down. We had a conversation about ants, and I said, listen, man, we don't kill ants here like we don't or we don't kill birds, we don't kill ants, we don't do that, we don't kill things unnecessarily. And you know how I learned that hunting, like I learned the nest like kind of the dynamics of killing. And and he's four, and he's like, Okay, no more birds, daddy, And that was it. But that was more me talking to myself than him. But it did help me understand like this songbird I appreciate and I would never want to kill it because I can't eat it. It's not a natural resource to me. Now it's it's something different. So that dynamic would be interesting to hear your thoughts on kind of how well do you think that's? Like me just all of this is like, am I just constructing something to make myself feel comfortable about killing? Or is this really, you know, uh, really attacked. How a way to live your life that helps with some of the many dynamic and complex problems we all have with with cohabitation being one of the main things. Well, man, I'm glad that you shared another I'm learning so much about well, I mean, I knew that you are vulnerable, but now you're sharing how wonderful a father you are. I'm one vulnerable son of a bit you know that was a humble, humble bred you are. You are a model father to sit down with your son and then we had hey listen, and then we had a mountain dew and watch cartoons. So I don't know, I take it, but um no, that that's a wonderful lesson to learn, like why unnecessarily, you know, kill these things? I think. Um, so that's that. My hat's off to you on that. On that front, Um, I do think that. Uh. And and I like your response about you know, acknowledging that sustainability it has to be local and it's it's not something that is generalizable over the whole planet. Um, here's here's a little you know, again, I'll reiterate, I'm a philosopher, so I'm going to throw a thought experiments at you. So look and here's here's the here's the thought experiment from a from an animal rights ethicist. So let's go back to your You have your two doors to choose from, and the way you put it was, on the one hand, there's like the animal rights world where you don't kill anything unnecessarily, and you know, you don't you know if you have to. But and the the other door, you have this life of hunting where you are doing sustainable killing. And now let me throw twisted kind of a Twilight Zone twist. So what if I said, um uh, see that door. Here's something you don't know about either door. When you go through that door, you don't know if you're going to be an elk or a human m So you have to choose. But you can't choose front loading, no, where you're gonna you don't You're you're not gonna know where you're gonna be in the hierarchy. Now I'll let you answer, but I have a feeling that throws a that I don't say throws a wrench, but that adds complication to the decision. And I think the animal rights person wants to say. What that shows is that there's a human bias built in when you talk about this kind these kinds of choosing which way to go. And the animal rights person says, I what I say is, well, if if the possibility I could be an elk, then certainly I'm going to choose the first door. Don't shoot me, Yeah, don't shoot me in the lungs. I'll only run two yards before I die. I am delicious. Yeah, I mean I think, uh, this would be like a game show that we could do is if you walked through this door you're at Elk and some hunters are gonna chase your would be a I think we could probably get Drew carry to run it. I think what you're asking is like, do you have the ability to be empathetic here? You know? Do you have the ability to see this animal for what you know? What you believe at least an animal rights believe that truly is with this like sentient being that doesn't that no matter how you reason it, and no matter how you structure something like a model or a value system in your own life, no matter how you do all those things, you still have to come to the point where you're killing something that doesn't want to die, like it it would prefer not to die. And guess who shares that sentiment with that Elk? I do. I would not like to die. I don't want anybody to shoot me with an arrow, like especially as actually an awesome broad head that it's like that has a two inch cutting diameter that's meant to slice me in half, so I can. So I only bleed out over a couple of minutes, you know, Like I don't funk. I don't want that at all, um, And so yeah, I mean I think once I walked through those doors, if I had had a chance as an elk to understand what I know now, I'd probably say, like, boy, this, you know what's better getting eaten by a wolf for getting shot by a hunter? I don't know. But I don't want to die. Like I'm an elk, I don't want to die, you know. And so I think that when you walk it back that far, I mean, yeah, there's nothing left left to say, is like we share, you know, what we share with animals. We don't want to die. Nobody, no sentient being is born with the idea of its death. As you know, really death is an an inevitability. But the way you die, you would you certainly like it to be your choice, right, Um. But then I think I think that, and that's a very thoughtful answer. But I think it's not merely. I shouldn't say merely. It's not only about um. It's not only shining a spotlight on empathy. It's also the thought experiment. As I described it. It's it's shining a spotlight on whether or not we are capable of being objective when we're making assessments about value. Who's valuable and who isn't and so and so. What I'm saying is, look, I can't help but be biased towards non human you know, in favor of human I'm a human, right, But that's not a justification for it. And I'll give you an obvious counter example. If I say, hey, uh, hey, what race do you want to be on the other side of that door? You don't really know. If I say, well, I mean, look, I'm a white dude, so I think I want to be a white guy. Um that that gets a little bit prickly, like it's like, wait, hold on a second, which right? So so if I think, well, you know, should everyone be subject of the same laws, And I'm trying to decide this before I walk through the door, and then someone says, oh, by the way, when you get on the other side of the door, you don't know if you're gonna be white, black, indigenous, a woman in a wheelchair. Right then I go, oh, you know what, I better make sure that the laws cover everyone as opposed to I know that I'm gonna be a middle aged white philosophy professor, and then I'm like, I don't care, you know. So I think the thought experiment is important for the animal rights person because what we say is to try to be objective, and again not to dismiss empathy and emotion, that's very important, but to try to be objective when we're deciding, when we're choosing which values we should base our society on. Part of that objectivity has to has to remove is to remove ourselves from this privileged position and saying, well, I don't have to worry when I choose the door. Here's what I know. I'm cool. Everyone else is screwed. So when you take that away, um, that's part of the challenge of the animal rights position. I wish you have given me this thought experiment way like I wish i'd had. I'm gonna use this a lot because I like the thought experiment because I think it drives that many things. So I guess what I would to take it a little bit further. I think, in terms of objectivity, no matter if I walk through the door, right and and you're gonna tell me no matter which one you are elk or human. Elk and humans both exist in the same numbers that they do today, in the same habitat and the same landscape. So on an on an objective basis, we're going to have to make a decision at some point about how those two things coexist. Right, you know, one eats the other, the other doesn't eat the elk don't eat humans, but humans eat elk, right, And that's been as long as there's been humans and elk. That's how it's been, right, So we can't re engineer that. So at some point, as we boiled down from kind of like the broad based thought experiment and we get closer to the actual interaction between an elk and a human, we then have to start to like unravel this what happens when you know, particularly elk in this case um come into conflict with humans or are you know, you have a farmer, he's got a crop field, that's his livelihood, and the thousand elk come walking in and started eating his crops, and there's nothing he can do. He can't he could chase them off, they'll just come back tomorrow. They're elk. They don't give a shit about his crops. Um just as though, just as we can make that value judgment between elk and crops, elk can make the value judgment between that dude's crops and going up in the mountains and eating some clover. Ladies can't um They're gonna take the easiest path to staying alive, right, And so we have once we get down to like the actual beating of the cohabitation heads together, like what do we do together here, then we can really start to talk about like even if you have which I like I've said from the beginning, you and I share a lot of the same values around like the animal itself, like ship man, I I love elk and so, but what happens when we get in that situation wage and how do we deal with it? And this is the same conversation I have with Paula Sheer. We got into arguing about rice and ship for like an hour. It was really probably boring to the listeners, but we got into this, like the it always to me boils down to like how do you see that relationship? And then when death happens, what's the result of that death? Because the nature death is almost always a good thing. I mean, I would say always a good thing. It's a good thing for other animals. It's a good thing. And so if I walk through that door and I'm an elk, I'm like, well, no matter how I die, something's gonna eat me. And in the case of a human, all I'm gonna do is die. You're gonna bury me in the ground and nothing. The bugs might eat me. But you know, there's there's a whole different um a thought press there. But you're not gonna tell the elk that when he's walking around, like, hey, man, listen, if you die, it's gonna be great. Something's gonna eat you, and you're gonna be You're gonna be a food for something. You know, it's helly elk that he'd probably like funck that he can eat some other elk um. And so that's I guess the thought. The thought experiment, when taken to it's attempted conclusion, just shows us that god damn, this is hard. It's like the individual thoughts and like the reality of our our being. Really I can take that way off into the wilderness or does that that makes sense? Now? That that that makes total sense? And yeah, when the rubber meets the road, you have to make some decisions. If you're if your crops are getting destroyed and you have you have, you know, a bunch of elk, then you have a conflict of interest. Now you have to resolve the conflict of interest. And then how you do that, of course, is as a matter of debate. So, um, I think that's when I would just I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think that's the core debate because I've I've seen that kind of played out so many times, and I think we always get to the point where it's like we're debating the reality of the situation. I almost would agree with you more in the theoretical me and you, I think theoretically are right there, man, Like we're basically in the same spot. Um, And the practicality of the situation or just like that the conflict or really like my own humanity versus the the elk nous of the elk, right like those things are, you know, that really becomes the conflict in my mind if if I can ignore kind of of how it's always been, and I can ignore how delicious and elk is or an elk is and not eat one, but that damn elk if he's hungry he's gonna go find them easiest, most delicious, most calorie and inducing food because he's trying to survive, right, So he's that Elk is not able to make a decision like I am, and hence sometimes the conflict. But to be clear, hunters aren't just hunting for to mitigate conflict like that's you know, so that that's not what's happening when I go out there. To be clear, so I'm not I don't want to make that I don't want to get that too entangled. But just following kind of just following that that theory that you that we're talking about, Well, if you want to look at the you said you wanted to, I don't want to. I don't want to monopolize. It's your it's your program. I don't want to sidetrack us too much from you know, the American model. But I know, I mean, I think we're talking about it. All these subjects kind of go back to it. We don't need to break it down tenant by Tennant. Well, I one of the things that in the in the animal rights world versus the here's what's interesting, you know, environmentalists. So if you if you if you take like a gross, you know, coarse grained generalization, and you think like, oh, you have these tree huggers, and you got the vegans, and you know the hippies, you got all and you sort of put them into one category. But in reality, in the world of of environmentalists and animal rights people, there's a great and I'm sure you know there's a great tension between the environmentalists and the animal rights people because and this goes back to our conversation we're just having, which is, um, do I value the ecosystem? Do I value the systems the whole? Do I take a holistic approach? Or do I value the individuals that constitute the ecosystem? Right? And and so these debates have been running for fifty years at least in the animal rights versus environmentalists, which is, look, it's okay to kill elk as long as a you're doing it, as you said, sustainably and be you're doing it in order to mitigate mitigate a greater harm to the ecosystem, right, And and so that's kind of that's taking this holistic approach where the individuals, the lives of the individuals are like subordinate to this, to the to the system, that the health and the stasis of the system. And of course the animal rights person is going to say, those are individual sentient beings. You can't just calling is a euphemism for just wiping out, you know, incentient beings. Now, now, now, I think what the animal rights person wants to say is, look, is there any other way to do this? Because when we when we look at human beings and you go, okay, look, by the middle of the century, we're gonna have nine billion, By the end of the twenty one century, we're gonna have ten to eleven billion humans Homo sapiens are destroying the planet in population numbers. Um, Now, how do we solve that? Well, we don't say, well, we have a lottery and then whoever loses goes to the you know, to the great gods in the sky. We we we talk about in our birth control, we talk about all these all these ways and to to mitigate population growth. When it comes to animals, what the animal rights person says is, look, the animals deserve the same kind of thought processes, like, how do we mitigate the damage to the environment while still trying to respect the individual sentient beings? Who can who constitute it, And you know, the environmentalists say, look, you know this is nature just works like this. You know, you eliminate the individuals and it makes the system, the ecosystem comes back into equilibrium. So, um, I think that's an important distinction to make when you're talking about how could we integrate animal rights or or how can these things fit together with wildlife management, I think we have to address, well, do what are we really caring about? And of course, again the animal rights person is going to say, well, you guys, And I mean when I say you guys, I mean the environmentalists who are who who think think at the systems level, the ecosystems level. You guys, you're all about ecosystems, except when it comes to humans. So the bottom line is all humans get to do whatever the hell they want. They can procreate as much as they want, they can make as many babies as they want, they can live where they want, they can do whatever the hell they want to do. And then for all the other beings on the planet, then we control their numbers. And that's right. And so the animal rights people want to say, uh, that again, that that is an anthropocentric bias and if you want to look at one species who's destroying the planet more than any other species, if that's really what you're worried about, we all know who that species is and it ain't an elk. So I think that that sort of encapsulates this tension that's been going on between environmentalists and animal rights activists, This argument that's you know, I don't know the answer to it. I think it's very complicated, but I think it's important to acknowledge that these are these are tough problems to to try to, you know, address. I think the one thing, I guess there's two things I would say to that, and one is the elk probably would destroy the ecosystem if allowed to. In fact, sometimes they do. Um if you just if there was no predators, if there's if they were left unchecked, they don't have the other than disease and winter kill and and and things that would naturally kind of hone in those populations those elk and never have a thought one about conservation or the landscape they are on. They have, you know, certain biological cues that they work from, which is sex, sex, procreatepropriate, eat, eat, eat, live, live, live, I mean that's that's what they are, right, and given how ecosystems function, you have to have some sort of check on that, and normally it's predators, right, So they are. I think the argument an environmentalist or or animal rights person might make like it doesn't need to be us checking them, right. We could put wolves in there, they'll check them. But but grizzly bears in and they'll check them. So I think that's That's one thing I've often said that about wolves and my experiences, wolves will just keep eating. You know, we see wolves is like they might just there might be there for a balance. Wolves don't think about balance their meat processors and four legs like they're they're a carnivore in the true truest sense and a predator in the truest sense. And so you know, I guess there's where you know. Dr Valarious Skyst was was the really the main author of our model of conservation told me earlier this summer he just said the words intelligent intervention. And then when he said that to me, I thought, well, they're like if there's two words that could encapsulate what you're talking about, just there right, Like this idea that of leaving them alone or managing them. You know, we we acknowledge we're different, We acknowledge we have a degraded impact on the landscape, and we acknowledge all those things. But we have to intervene intelligently because we have that intelligence to make those ethical immoral choices on behalf of the animals. Because they don't. They'll eat the grass with the grass is there, they'll kill the elk. If the elk is there, don't much care um because they just have biological cues that drive them. So I I guess the first point. I'm not as hard on the first point. But man, when I heard, you know, kind of the father of this model that I've studied and studied say intelligent intervention, I thought, Okay, Like to me, that's that if we're going to intervene, that's the type of intervention that we need to do. Intelligent intervention doesn't say killing, it doesn't say it doesn't say what type of intelligence intervention that we're doing, but it just says we have the ability to intervene intelligently, and boy, we ought to um for the sake of every every species, every being. So it doesn't that I don't want it. That's not a concept that I think has anything to do with hunting. I think it has to do with what you were just speaking about there, which is very much just we have to intelligently intervene, and then we have to have this debate, you and I and people in our positions have this debate about what that intelligence is and how that intervention takes place. You know, and but but I think I I'm firm that and we have to intervene in some way, whether it's policy making you say never kill, or it's policy making to say only kill a little bit. I think we have to intervene intelligently. Well now, now, now the philosopher is gonna shed the theoretical abstract and come down to the practical, and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, Okay, here's what I want to say that, and that is I agree with you that and in the at the abstract, intelligent intervention is probably unavoidable, it's probably indispensable. However, as you know, maybe I'm just a little bit cynical when I think that human Well, let's look at the track record of the of the phrase intelligent intervention, and I think we ain't doing so well, So, um, I look around and go like, are we are we really gonna leave humans? I'm glad it's it's it's laughable, like, look at what we've done to the planet. It's it's insane. So and now again I'm not I'm not. I'm saying at the level of theory, it would be great if we could have some intelligent intervention and we used the best science we have to understand ecological relations and understand um uh stasis and these kinds that I'm totally on board with that. I'm just saying as as a human who's been on the planet for a few decades, I get a little nervous when we're relying on intelligent intervention to solve problems. Um. So that's a that's a very point, Mr Jones. But but no, I I agree. Look, here's where I think we get this is a you made a really great point I wanted to just reiterate, and that is it's not really about like when you talk about intelligent intervention and you know, look, we you can think of it like this is triage. We have to do something, we can't do nothing, and and hunting it's just a subcategory of doing something, it's not hunting versus not hunting. I think that's a really important point to make, that that once we recognize we can't do nothing, then we look at all the options that are on the table, and then you have these different values we bring. Um. But you know, I think it's important too to say that, uh, I mean somewhere like New Zealand. Uh, there were no predators in New Zealand for tens of thousands of years. And I don't you know again, I'm I'm not trying to canter the view that well, if there's no controls, then things are going to go out of whack. But the point is, um, there have been places on the planet where there have not been predatory controls. There have been other kinds of controls, and things kind of seem like they were okay until you know, humans game and introduce predators in New Zealand. Right, so, now New Zealand has a massive you know, they're doing a they have invasive speed. I mean, we you and I could spend hours talking about quote invasive species. But that's why one of my favorite topics right now, like why do we get Oh we better get hey, hey mate, we better get in a helicopter and kill all those tar and like why because they're not native. I'm like, well, you're a little tiny island. The only thing is left native. There's a parrot. Like what are we what are we even discussing? Like you talking about a theoretical discussion, mind Jesus. So yeah, I mean so that's the kind of thing where um uh you know, my, maybe this is more of an intuition, but my, you know, I think you'll agree with me that here's here's what my it's more of a general kind of feeling, and that is you know what human beings, Um, ship can be okay without you messing things like like nature. Quote, nature has been around a long time before human beings. If Homo sapiens you know, are a quarter of a million years old, if that's what our best science tells us nature, and and you know, the planet as we know it has been around for a very long time. And for us to think that without us intervening, ship is going to go sideways, I think you would agree to say no, no, Like we the reason why we have to intervene is because and in a large part is because we keep sucking up right, And I'm not. I'm not I want to I just want to make it clear. I'm not a primitivist where I'm saying we all need to return to the you know, shun clothing. I'm not saying that. I'm merely trying to say that it's not a bad idea to to step back sometimes and say, wait a second, let's just question this assumption that we're working under, which is humans makes things better, we improve you know, we we we take a resource and it's sitting there doing nothing, and we come and make it. It's like those forests that are seeing their quote doing nothing, they've been doing nothing for tens of thousands of years, yes, and they're doing fine. So yeah, to be cleared, as you asked me, like, what's the North American model, I said, well, a hundred years ago, we really fucked this place up bad. So the point, like our whole point, the point of this conversation, or the point of the model itself, was like, we never want to go back to what happened at the turn of the century, you know, we never want to go back to that, and this is the best best way we can figure out how to get there. Um, And that's you know, and and I think it acknowledges if we were if there was no humans, it probably be it would probably work out just fine. But there are humans, and so as you mentioned, we got to kind of on a on a larger broad scale do triage. I like that term in terms of of of how we cohabitate and manage wildlife, because triage is probably a pretty good term for what we're trying to do. And then on a on a local level, on a personal level, boy, I'm just one little part. I'm just one little stitch in that triage. If we're sewing up a wound, I'm one little stitch. But boy, just being that one little stitch makes me gives me this human value that that I've tried to articulate here with you and and for three damn years on this podcast. And so I feel like, you know, man, if I if I am a little piece of of us stumbling around in the dark trying to figure this out, um, it's helping me as a human and it's helping to find a little bit of how I moved through the world. And that that that to me is like, well, I'm willing to be a part of of the of us stumbling around trying to figure it out, because eventually, maybe Robert, there will be a thing where there's a small band of hunters. There's maybe a million of us, and and we no one else kills things. But they come along and we show them what's up. Hey, here's how humans used to be, and we say, look at that. We'll shoot that elk right there. We eat it, and then they go back to the lives and they go and get their lab based hamburger and they eat that and it tastes like that meat. They didn't have to kill ship to get it, but they understand what killing looks like and what it might mean, and then they get to enjoy that lab based hamburger all the more because they understand, you know, what their forebears did, those damn cavemen, that that we're killing animals. At some point, I think, um, that's why you'll find here at meat Eater. I don't want to speak for everybody, but I definitely feel kind of an admiration for not particularly plant based meat, because it still has a still has a big effect on our environment, and it's probably not that great for us in its current form, but lab based meat I've I've come to be like m that could be a good solution like that. Yeah, man, you can make a lot of that ship and uh probably wouldn't affect a whole lot of people, and it would be a nice way to mitigate what we all know is a problem outside of you know, the eleven million or so hunters that are out there, because that number can't really grow. It can't go to fifty million, a hundred million. It can't because our our ecosystems and our animals or wildfe population just can't maintain that demand. So there is a sublime demand part of this which certainly certainly doesn't feel animal rights e and it's and how I stated that, But at some level that's where we are. You know, we know that this thing isn't isn't the ultimate solution, but maybe it's like one stitch in the triage um and boy, it feels really it feels like a uniquely human endeavor, if not maybe h anti modernistic in a way that it's carried out. I been you know what I like what you said is the part about I mean, I like everything you said, but I like the thing I zero in on was your description of us sort of stumbling in the dark, and I that's that's that's you know what philosophers like to call epistemic humility, which is a fifty cent term that says, look, don't assume that you know everything, right, Like, we start out with this view that says, like, for me as an animal rights person, for me as someone who is a vegan and trying to go through the world following principles that decrease harm in the same way that you do, Ben right, you don't. You told your son no, don't unnecessarily step on ads, right. So it's interesting we share that kind of thing. But I also feel like, just like you do, it's like, look, this whole thing is so crazy, it's so gigantic. There's so much interconnectedness when it comes to ecosystems, when it comes to killing and death and food feeding humans and and and I feel like, look, I'm just trying. I'm I am kind of stumbling around. I don't have all the answers. I just want to leave the planet a little bit better when it's my time to shove off, to have the humility to go. I'm trying to figure it all out. And I have this really discrete and limited amount of time. You know, if if I lived a thousand years, I might be able to figure something out, But in the short time that I have, I'm doing the best I can. And so I think that's important for all sides of the of the of this question. And when it comes to going back to the issue of wildlife management, it's like, we can do the best we can, but we should always do so humbly, with with humility and and and saying I'm we're trying to We're trying, in all earnestness and all sincerity to do the best we can to mitigate harm. I think that, you know, Yeah, that's a lot of overlap between you and I. I really do. And I think if we can all take a step back, you know, because we've talked a lot this year on this show even about kind of like the divisiveness of of our cultures, and we were just talking about around the collection of people around this podcast, people are collecting around complex and almost at some points impossible ideas. Right. Rather than taking those complex and impossible ideas and in crystallizing them into two sides and beating each other over the head with those ideas, these people are gathering around these like Hey, man, you want to gather around and talk about some ship we'll never figure out? Like, oh yeah, man, I'd love to gather around and talk about some things that are existential, uh and and human, very human endeavors. Um. And that really is is ultimately the most warming thing for me to think about that we're able to you and I are able to get together and kind of just just agree upon the complexity of our situation, you know, and not say that I'm right or you're wrong, or or or we can't have a productive discourse or even not even really a discourse, just an agreement that we're in this gumbo of of human and animal complexities that will almost be never ending. It's a cause and effect game. It's not a single it's not a zero sum game. Um. And so you know we're talking about we're often talking about trade offs and causes and effects and different things that are that are not a it's not a deterministic game. UM. We know that we're working on it together. And I think ultimately that's of doing this for three years, that's where I I that's what I've learned. I've learned that that we are doing this together, and it's a point that we have divided ourselves into vegans and hunters was the point where we lost our ability to figure it out, you know, or at least or at least get a little closer to the actual solution in and of itself. And so that's why, you know, having you on, man, I've always said, I'm like, Man, we you and I could probably take this onto the road and fill theaters full of people that want to listen to us to mokes talk about, you know, like to do duds from opposite sides of the country talk about these ideas. And the thing that's compelling about those conversations is not that we figure it out, or that I believe in hunting and you believe in animal rights and we can't and we're just yelling at each other. That's not it. What's compelling is that we're able to move forward slowly and um, and then we don't have to yell at each other to get there. Uh. And so we're in a crazy world. But at least that to me is something that we can we can figure out together and and I'm glad to have done it, that's for sure. Yeah, me too, Ben, And I think you touched on something another thing that I find to be important and in some ways disconcerting, and that is especially in our current political culture as well. It's like you and I and many people like us, who are you know, take quote, you know, one side or the other. I think our discussions are emblematic of something that's that's vitally important to having, as you said, discourse or having a discussion, and that is having a shared set of values and a shared set of beliefs that at some foundational level, like when you scrape from the top down, here's a vegan animal, right sky, here's a hunter, and you get start to dig and drill down. Then you say, well, you know, Ben wants the world to be a certain way, and Ben doesn't want to unnecessarily harm and bend values things like animals and the environment on autonomy, and Robert does this kind of stuff, and and so that provides a foundation for a fruitful discussion. And the thing that I fear in looking at our current political situation is that for many people, it's seems to me in the country, we don't even share any longer a kind of foundational notion of like what's valuable, like what true? Here's something like what is true? Like, what does it mean? What is truth? Is it? Like? For most of us, truth is like something happens in the world. And then I tell I say a statement, and if that statement corresponds to what happens in the world, then we say it's true. Right. So if I say snow is white, you go that why is that true? Because the stuff in the world separate from me is white. It's snow, right, And so just it's having that foundation, we're like, okay, yeah, that yeah, we agree snow is white. Okay, cool. And it seems like the more I read I get, you know, when I teach my students, I get a little bit, I get sad, and I get a little worried because the very foundations of like what's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad? What kind of world? It gets disconcerting. So these kinds of conversations I think that you and I have um and you know, not gon not like here tooting my own horn. You're the one who this is, You're the mastermind behind this. But what I what I think is it's important and we've talked about this before. Man, it's important to model a kind of discussion on very important and sensitive topics where there are these differences, but at at the fundamental level, there are values that are shared. And I think that's something we're really missing. And your your podcast, in my mind, has always provided an example of how to how to engage with different ideas in a way that is, it comes from a place of respect, and it comes from a place of ultimately of wanting the same kind of world. You know that that your quote opponents might want. So my hat is off to you for that. Well, thank you, thank you. It means it means the world to me to hear that. Um. And also, I guess I'll end with this. I think it's not only hunting in veganism or animal rights. How do you shape that debate? I I have a certain particular notion about guns, but I would say at some level, uh, the polls, the two different ideas are often even though they're being marketed or or told that they're on opposite sides and that they could never understand each other, the issue is that they're really thinking anti gun people in pro Second Amendment folks are both talking about most of the time the value of life, right control the guns to save lives. Give me some guns to save my life for my family's life. So they're both kind of comparatively talking about the value of life and how guns affect that value, right And and same thing with hunting and vegan we're both talking about the value of animals and how one action affects that value. And so we're people that are being told. It's often the people that are being told to disagree or being driven by ideologies or group think confirmation bias to disagree with each other that often are coming from a place where they could agree um as as always give that idea of starting the same place. You walking away with each other, walking away from each other, and as you get further away, you yell louder like. That's just how it works. And I and that's one thing I've learned over time. This is certainly that when you're being told that the other person over there is the enemy, it's most likely that you could probably find uh, something relational in your enemy that you could say, look at that, we think the same way about that, and then maybe you won't have any enemies anymore. I don't I certainly don't want any. And I've seen a lot of people in the media create enemies out of friends, to drive a narrative, or to drive in action, or to drive hate or fear. When they don't have to, they could just say, everybody, get along. I know it's not as compelling as Hayitan, but just get along. Watch next week. You know when we get along. That would not be a good uh not be a good drop on cable TV. That does not sell new spe hell no, hell no. Well, Robert, thank you again for this, always being so willing to come on and talk to us. And uh, as I said, I think at one point in our lives, you and I should take this on the road. Um and uh once once there is a road to go on, I guess, and we can get I am I am game for that because here's what I would the people who show up to listen to you and I talk. I think there are people we we would um, we would like to hang out with me. Whoever would show up to this kind of thing. Hey, after after the after we did our thing, we can go you know, have a couple of beers and have a couple of beers. Yeah, and whenever we get into the Roaring twenty two is when everybody's just out running around crazy with their vaccines. Maybe we can do it. All right, keep keep me posted on that. Thank you so much. Man. All right, brother, I'll talk to you later. Man. That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to roberts See Jones, the one and only. He is my favorite interview by far on this podcast. I wish you could have been in person, but I'm glad we got to do it. I'm glad we got to figure some stuff out. Thank you to Nuri Hong and everybody that's that's joined up th h C and the t C chapters all over the internets. We really appreciate you in every way possible. I gotta tell you before we get into uh, some major news here in a second, I gotta tell you the Bear Grease Podcast with our boy Clay Nucom is now live and in color everywhere you might listen to podcasts, especially I Heart Radio and their app. Have you listened, Obviously, you want to give your review, Phil, I've got an awesome user review of the show I want to read. But Phil, you want to give your review of the Bear Grease Podcast. Yeah, it's a tough podcast to sum up because it's kind of Clay I feel like it's kind of like Clay Unleashed. That's my review. It's kind of all all the stuff he's clearly um passionate about when it comes to hunting and hunting culture, specifically in the South. Um So he brings in a lot of folklory interviews, all kinds of guests, from doctors and professors all the way to just like old hillbillies. He's known his entire life um to talk about just various subjects. You know. The first episode is about mountain lions. He's got episodes about hunting with dogs, about owls, just about. So it's all it's I mean, he like, he just spans the gamut. It's an interesting podcast. It's a relatively quick listen. It's only about an hour long, but it's more produced than a lot of our other stuff. So it's got an original soundtrack, lots of like music, um sound design sequences and stuff. Who's doing the sound design? Phil, who's doing the sound design? Oh I am ben Bam. That's Philly engineer playing in your ear holes. You're gonna want to listen to that, and I'll tell you it's it's like this American life for for as Clay would say Hillbillies. Um, I would say that, and and he got a five star review from Scott Harrison. Kay, and the title of it is Beargrease Podcast is the marrow of the world. And uh, it says it reads Ain't this something I told my man and my pap. I was listening to the Beargrease podcast a trap and be a mountain man and acted like they was gut shot. They said, son, make your life go here. Here's where the people's is. The Beargreas podcast is for animals and savages, I says, mother Goo. The beargreasee podcast is the marrow of the world. And by god, I was racked. And this is the place I have that guy on his podcast. That's what I told Clay. I was text with him like, yeah, I have that guy on man. He is rocking and rolling. Uh so go listen to Bargrease, Man. It is a fantastical podcast. Um. And now listen Phil. Now we gotta get into something that is incredibly serious. I imagine, for for me, for you and for everyone else. Uh. And is is an important topic? Um? Because I have a big announcement today. And again it doesn't have anything to do with anything else other than the words I'm about to say to you, So UM, listen closely. Over I would say, over the last three years, I've poured my heart and soul into the Hunting collective, UM, and I've been grateful for the chance to tackle almost every debate and impossibly complex issue we've come across here alongside everybody that listens, all the th C listeners out there. Yeah, most of most of what we can do and and figure out these complex issues is because we've had time. We've had time to think and react, reason and grow and eventually find our way forward. And that time is essential. But now our time will soon come to an end. The May eleventh episode of th HC are seventy seven recording will be our last recording, be our last episode. As Meat Eater continues to grow, my role has evolved and my attention is needed elsewhere as director of all the hunting content for the media to brand. The smartest decision for our business, which is the business I care about, is to channel my focus into new content that's going to resonate with our audience. And I can promise you that I will bring the same thoughtful approach to our hunt content for the new and familiar faces, including Clay Nukem, that you're used to from this show. You know, at its core this is hard for me to kind of explain. And again we have four more weeks ago, so we'll continue to talk about this, but you know, at its core, th HC really hasn't changed since we debuted it in February. The show is always meant to explore why we hunt through an ongoing conversation, and there's always been guests from inside and outside of our community that have come to help us work through those conversations. For each time we've had somebody on, we discovered these different perspectives on hunting, and we began to build a better collective vision for who we are and why we love this and chasing that collectivision. I have learned to always actively challenge my own beliefs and the beliefs of my and our community. I have hunted for my own biases and I've tried to understand their impact on my worldview. I've become an admirer of ecosystem level thinking in the North American model of wildlife conservation. I've tried to build a more inclusive place promoting a diversity of not only backgrounds and skin colors, but also ideas and early on this program, I remember saying one time that I didn't want this podcast. I didn't want THHC to be about me. It was always meant to be about us. But the truth is this show has been a story about my life, and I imagine it will remain as a weird time capsule for who I was and who I have become. I created this show because I needed to find my own y along the way. It has grown and changed organically, as if we were all designing and building a kick as roller coaster while we were already riding it. Today, I'm happy to have had that opportunity to spent so many hours with every single one of you, and I'm proud that we've gathered around our shared passion for almost for over really over three years. You know. Ask for me and my future, I can't tell you. I am absolutely gonna be right here at Meat Eater helping this company achieve our collective goals, and I'm going to create impactful content along the way for you all. It's just not going to be here at th HC. But listen, Phil, you know this th HC is not over yet. We've got four weeks to go to say goodbye to you all, and we've got Phil the engineers first Turkey Hunt as the final most important thing will have done in the three years of this program. So there's still some fun left to be had. All I'm gonna ask you guys, it was raising white Claw, have a drink, digest this news, and we've got a few more shows. We've got more laughs, more conversations that will make us think, Uh, Phil, any commentary on your part about the the ending, the the sun setting of this year t HC program, I kind of just wanted to leave it, leave it with what you said, Ben, because that was that was a great, great kind of statement there. But I told I told this to you, and you first told me about this news, which was that the timing of th HC ending. I mean, you know, you could say that there's like you know, there's not like a good way for people taking this news, but I would say it's the best possible way th HC could be ending is right now. Around these chapters which started off as a complete like off hand comment from you or me about Eric Hall mentoring someone in the Blu Ray Mountains or whatever. And I we said it could be all like you could have it. It could be like American Legions, and I think could be one. And then that's the THHC halls that the cult chapters and that it's actually happened. And from what we heard, like from Luke Reeves and Nuri and everyone on Facebook, I mean, this this thing, it's this train is not stopping with the end of the podcast, and it's going to live on for who knows how long with the communities that you created. And I know that that this news is probably hard for a lot of people to hear, but I think it could It could not have been and the show cannot be ending in a better state. And I don't know if you agree, but I do agree. I do agree, And I never you know, you never know to expect when you talk to somebody like Nuri or Luke or somebody that's involved in the leadership and and those chapters, you never know, um how it's gonna go. But he what what what is importan and to me for everyone to know is that the connections that have been made because of this show in those chapters could not have been a better result of all the conversations we've had over the last three years. It could not if if I mean me and Philly. So you get excited over two people getting together to go hunt, but now we've got thousands of people getting together. And I can't tell you how heart and di am by that, um, and how much I look forward to seeing what's going to happen there. And so yeah, fail, you're exactly right, and and everything has to come to an end somehow, some way, and um, this is this is our way and Phil's first hunt, and these chapters into the future is how we're going to move forward. And I'm excited. I'm not sad. Um, I'm excited. I'm excited for what what's going to happen in the short term and in the long term. And also Phil, I think I could sell this microphone on eBay and get gets a sweet amount of money, a couple hundred bucks probably. Yeah. Sure, I'm not going to tell anyone, So don't worry about it, all right, thanks man, Well I appreciate it. Listen, everybody, digest this news. Come back next week, ready to listen, ready to have fun, ready to be challenged, and we'll do it for four more weeks here at the Hunting Collective, say bye Phil, goodbye. Clean you're gun, and tune your bowl where the hunt clicked, showing calling hunters new and all the hunt collected, show working pick and shuttle or working being in hand. We call regate nice lovers of the lane. I'm the land. We're focused. We're just living for the searching, dreaming of fire and a salty gilburn. But we ain't coming back to heal. It's colden lane, taking it slow. So week and shoot straight. Clean your gun to your bowl where the hunt clicked, show calling hunters new and all the ain't no cold une