00:00:12 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective in a brand new year. We made it to one, and we also made it an episode one hundred and sixty. I'm feeling pretty good, Phil the Engineer, How are you feeling, buddy? I feel great. There's a there's there's a sunlight streaming through a window right now. If it's cold outside, it's one of those winter mornings that just feel refreshing. Yes, I am refreshed. I feel refreshed. It's a new year, it's a new th hc uh. Same old me and you, same old me and you. But we gotta We're gonna do a lot this year. We're gonna do a lot of new things. We're gonna we're gonna keep a lot of old things around that we like. Um. But I'm feeling renewed despite the fact that the political climate has not been great. Phil, are you do you want to talk about how you're feeling? Do you want to just skip over that? If anyone who's been listening to podcast for the last year, I'm sure knows what I feel about it, I'm not gonna offer any insight. So insight still has no insight to the current political climate in the United States. I don't really have much either, other than to say, man, it's it's super depressing, and um, hopefully we this little show right here can be a place to dive into hunting and learning about all that stuff. Um, we're gonna focus, We're gonna focus on lots of things. But as I was thinking about what this year could bring for us, I was thinking about how important it is to have new hunters come along. A lot of the folks that listen to the show are either brand new hunters or adult onset hunter, which you guys could all help me rename that term, because it sounds awful. It sounds like you have the onset of some sort of disease that we're gonna need to take you to the hospital for. But that's not what it is. So maybe the first task in for the TC called is to figure out what do we call adult onset hunters and to define that that is a hunter who has taken up the pursuit later in life, So it could be late twenties, could be like I would say, after the age of if you take up hunting completely cold turkey, as Phil will do soon this year. Then you are an adult onset hunter in the current parlance, the current terminology. Phil, do you have any suggestions of what we might rename that to be, because adult onset hunter is not not cutting it. Yeah, I I agree it as a terrible term. I I don't have any any ideas right now. I like that you use the term called turkey though. I mean that's just fitting because we will be making turkeys cold high five man. Nope, not yet. You got to do better than you do better than that. No, no, no dad jokes allowed on th HD And well, I really am serious about as I thought about what could be would be for us. Um, I want to really focus on things that are new new hunters, and obviously, Phil, you will be the test case for that along the way. But there's so much that we can talk about, so much we can learn in regards to how we teach people, how we bring people into what we do. So if you're out there listening and you hunted your whole life and you love this show, you're gonna find ways to teach new people and bring new people in. And if you're out there and you've either never hunted or like many of you, went hunting a few times, haven't had success. Um, you're gonna find some tidbits of information along the way in one on this show, and so we're gonna keep the door swinging both ways. Well, if you, if you hunted your whole life, you really should be looking at it as a way to bring in someone new to what we do. Bring them in. Show them what why we love hunting, Show them why we love conservation, show them the books we read, show them the shows we watch, all the podcasts we listen to to get us excited. Bring them in and show them how this thing enriches our lives. If you, if you've never hunted, get in there and make it a goal to bring someone along with you, or make it a goal to get to a point where you're comfortable to do that. Um, I is going to be anything for all of us, and we can forget the division in our country for once in our lives. It could be about growing the thing that we obviously all love so much because we're here talking about it on this show. So Phil, you will be our mascot. You will be our shining light as you always are. Um, what do you feel about this idea of one is the year of of newness, the new Hunter. I like it. I like the direction. I don't like the idea of me being the mascot or the face of this movement. Um, it just seems like a lot of pressure, like I'm no, I'm no count Chocola, or like that's how I like this, you go to I don't mind that though. That's not a bad thing. The face of the hunt, of the face of hunting, that's what you're gonna be, if we if if I can have my Druthers's I'm sorry, I'm sorry to all the hunters out there. No, well, listen, we certainly are. We're gonna We're gonna really try to as we get through this year, UM, teach Phil and give him the lessons of what we think he needs to get along in this pursuit, and hopefully through that he can be a proxy for all of you to do some learning and to teach other people. UM, a huge part of this show. We're still gonna have our silly conversations, are jokes, are segments, not so sharp moments, and things of that nature. But I think we'renna kick off the year with a really good guest. His name None of you know, a lot of you won't know who he is. But he's known me for a long time, as he will say, he's known me since I was but a young, fresh faced, non bearded hunter in the industry. His name is Armando Vento Tozie. He is a hunting guy out of Montreal and he's one of my favorite people. He's going to be one of your favorite people. He's as Italian as they get. He loves hunting as much as anyone, and he's got a lot of stories to tell for you guys on this episode. A couple of things. One uh the Caribou herds in northern Quebec and the Qjuak in other places, kind of the the decline he was He was a guide for Safari Norddeeck and the years of the decline of those two herds that are now not being hunted. Hunting seasons were revoked removed in that part of Quebec. So we're gonna talk about that a little bit. But more importantly, he has something pretty serious in nature to share, and that that is um. He was witnessed too and a party to a death, accidental shooting and a death and a duck blind up near his home in Quebec, and so that's a tough one. It's a tragedy. It's something that is hard for him to talk about, hard to listen to. Um, it was even awkward at times for me to listen to because it's just you feel so horrible for the family of the man that was killed and um, the man himself. But it's something we can all learn from. And as as we think about teaching new hunters, we could take this story in and then think about gun safety across the board, especially in terms of turkey hunting, duck hunting, upland hunting, where you're often enclosed quarters with a bunch of people and those people have guns. So I just want to say all love to Armando for coming on and having the strength to tell the story. You're gonna hear it coming up pretty soon. But Phil, I want to in the spirit of learning from this tragedy, we're gonna hear hear about hearing a little bit. I want to go over a couple of things. If you're gonna learn to hunt, Phil, what is your first tell the audience what is your experience with shotguns? I feel like we've touched on this before, like what is the like? What have you done? How comfortable one to tend? We'll get back to the number ranking system for our friend. There a call. How comfortable with the shotgun? Are you one to tend? Uh? One one? Have you pulled the trigger on the shock of before? Have you felt the recoil? Do you understand I have never done this? No, nothing, I have never fired a shotgun? All right? Are you apprehensive about it? Do you feel like you can handle it? You know there is depending especially at turkey load, there's quite a lot of felt recoil depending on what we're what we're shooting. I feel fine, Yeah, I feel I feel confident. Um. I mean, I maybe maybe I'm putting the car before the horse here, but I I feel confident in in in my abilities to learn good. Good. I'm glad you're confident. I think one of the things and teaching new hunters is do exactly what we just did with Phil here as he is our mascot. You tell you want to test out their confidence level. Um, Because there's varying degrees of confidence in the many disciplines within hunting. Right, you may be confident with a firearm but not confident with the game you may be confident with calling, but not with a firearms. I mean, there's a many things that someone might understand or might not understand. Um, you know, it goes it's it's as easy as how to shoot a shotgun and maybe as deep as as death and understanding death. Uh. This in the systems of the natural world. So there's a lot you can touch on. We will, we will touch on those. But Phil, if you're down for it, man, you tell me if you're down for I figured we would go over the gun safety rules that I learned as a kid from the National Rifle Association. You want to go over those? Yeah, that's it, Oh, you're excited. Um, A couple of things, man, like when we start looking at this, there are the three fundamental rules. There are three things that you always need to know, and then there are a bunch of other things that really as a gun owner you should start to develop over time. But the first three rules are things that will keep everybody safe if you do this. Uh. And it really starts with that personal responsibility of being the one who controls the firearm you take. When you put that shotgun in this case in your hand, you are responsible for what goes on with that weapon. Because it is a weapon, it is dangerous, and we do intend to kill an animal with it. So we were on immense words where that's concerned. The first one, phil is always keep the gun pointed in the safe direction. You know. This is the primary rule of gun safety. Of course, common sense might dictate what's the safest direction, but it depends on the circumstances. Certainly, I have seen some what we call in the industry h a d s, or accidental discharges. I see what I saw one on a turkey hunt down in Texas one year, where a veteran turkey hunter was getting It was dark out. I had a group of guys. I was kind of guiding them, telling them where they needed to go on this rams to find turkeys. This guy steps out of the truck, picks up a shotgun, puts his finger on the trigger in the dark, and pulls it and he has an a D. Of course, luckily for us, the shot went off straight up into the air. So this is the fundamental rule of gun safety. If the gun is pointing in a safe direction and the worst thing happens, at least it's going to happen into a safe place or a safe direction. And that is you know, as scary as it is to have a gun go off when you didn't mean it to, if it goes off into the air or into the ground and everyone is safe, at least you have a chance to learn from it. Uh. And that that is as important as anything when you're teaching somebody to hunt or you're learning to hunt and there's a gun involved, you know, in Phil's case, a turkey gun. Um questions there, Phil, that's pretty that this is all pretty common sense stuff. Yeah, And it's it's stuff that I feel like I'm I'm anal about like when it's not doesn't involve guns, just I feel like I would be. I'll probably be annoying about it. I'll probably be asking a lot of questions like, oh, is this good? Is this good? Like uh so, um, yeah that sounds that sounds very good. I will be extra cautious with yeah, do you do you see yourself taking the control of that and and being the one to say like, is this safe? Is this safe? Is this safe? Because there's some people when you get into like the social pressures of being in a hunting camp with a bunch of people, that have done it their whole lives. You want to seem like you know what you're doing as fast as possible, even if you're a new guy. And so I've seen a lot of people come into it with kind of a cavalier attitude after a short time of learning and leave this this idea that they have to be the one with the personal responsibility to be safe off the side once they feel like they're part of the club and they've they've learned the basics. I don't really have a concern about my own choice of our decisions, but the thought of being with a group of other people who all have guns, that just just the thought of that, I just probably sounds completely insane and silly to lifeline hunters, But to me, it's it's just it. It makes me nervous, it gives me, gives me the hebe gebs. Yeah, I mean it is. We're gonna hear a story from my good friend Armando coming up, or someone lost their life, Um, because these rules weren't followed. It was an accident. But that you know, you don't get to take that back. So that's that's a big one. If you can always keep that gun pointing in a safe direction. That's that's a philosophy that will always do you well. Here's here's the next one. Always keep and we say always like capital letters. Always, always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. You know, when you're holding a gun, you rest your finger near the trigger guard alongside the frame. You do not rest your finger on the trigger or the trigger guard anywhere near it until you are ready to touch off a shell or around in that gun if if it's pointing in a safe direction, and your fingers never on the trigger until you're you know exactly where you're gonna send that payload of babies in this case, or a shot at that turkey. You're never going to have a problem with your trigger control. But trigger control being something not only for the performance, for your shooting performance, be able to hit with training at but knowing where to place your trigger finger on the shotgun when you're holding it, when you're carrying it in the woods, to make sure there's never a chance where that finger is gonna find its way to the trigger when it shouldn't. Um and this this is this goes across the board, not only when you're getting it out of the case, when you're loading it in the case, when you are carrying it in the field, when it's slung over your shoulder, when you're shouldering it to get ready to shoot it an animal. These are the types of things, um, that you have to be thinking about. And not only when you know you're gonna let around go, but when you're doing the day to day things, the normal things that you will do. And if you're on a seven day turkey hunt, on day five, you will have that shotgun slung over your shoulder for a long period of time each day. So this is when those that when people get lax, when those accidents happen. UM, in my mind, these at the times when you can really hone, UM, how responsible you are and how cognizant you are of what you're doing with a firearm. Uh makes sense, fil got it, got it all right? I like that, UM. Always keep the gun unloaded until you're ready to use it. Now, this there's a lot that goes into this. There's a lot to knowing when how do I know when a gun is unloaded? How do I know when to load the gun? Um? How do I be ready should a turkey come rolling around the corner? But also be safe. Um keeping the action open on a firearm, especially a shotgun, it's harder to do with a bold action rifle shotgun, it's not so you know, uh, the semi auto shotgun like you'll be using on this hunt, a weather Be eighteen I, it's not so hard to do. You lock the action open so you can look down inside the chamber and inspect the chamber and you can see whether or not a shell is present, and that is the safest way. Now, all you have to do is let that action down and that will automatically, especially in an autoloader, put a shell in the chamber, so you're ready to roll. Now, there's a bunch of reasons why you do it and don't do it. But and this case, locking that action back is the way that you can physically look and inspect that at any time. If the action is closed and it is in battery, you will not be able to see whether or not there is a shell in the chamber ready to roll. So this is this is where it gets to the more practical application, because that you have to know your weapon, you have to know how it works, and you have to tell yourself there's in this case, especially with a shotgun, there's one way you can tell physically that it's safe and another way you don't really know. Um, you would assume, you can assume, but that action open is the thing that will keep keep you safe when you're crawling around in the timber looking for a turkey. Um, questions, Phil, this one, I feel like this one you should have some questions. Yeah, Well, this one's a little bit more. This one is tougher because I feel like I need a more practical, like hands on experience with with the gun to kind of get this one fully. Because like in theory, I understand it, like I know what an action is, a chamber magazine, YadA, YadA, But like, actually, you know, interacting with these things myself, I think will provide a lot more understanding. Yeah. Yeah, there's like you said, there's a lot of different types of even shotguns. I mean, we could be using a side by side and over under an autoloader in this case, there's a lot of things we could be doing. There's a lot always to keep those different action types safe. And so we get into bold action, then we get into somehow to rifle, get into lever action, a single shot there's a ton of things you can get into when you're thinking about firearms. Um. And so yeah, man, I think I imagine at some point we'll take a trip to the range here in the very near future, and we'll record it for everybody so they can hear you're kind of going through the practical application of this. But again, those three rules. Always keep the gun point in a safe direction, Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, and always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. Are that is the bible for gun handling. Those are the things that you cannot do wrong. Um. And if you do all those things, even if you have an accidental discharge, even if something happens that you're not expecting, if the gun malfunctions in a way that you can't control, we won't have a tragedy or an injury or anything. We don't want, only a learning experience if if we do these things correctly, what else phil what like any other apprehensions. I mean, there's some other things that we can talk about, and we'll talk about about gun safety, but those are the three things that you've got to have down before we do anything. I don't have anything now because I mean, it was sort of the same thing I was taking my hunter safety and it was getting into all the the nitty gritty of the actual like mechanical applications and and and stuff. I I think, I at this point, I just need to I just need to actually try it, and I need to I need to hold a gun in my hand and load it and fire it and and and follow all the all the safety measures. And I think then I'll have more practical questions. But right right now, I think I'm pretty much as as far as I can get good. Well, that's what I look forward to, man, And there's other things that we'll talk about when we get out there, like know your target and what's beyond it. You got to be absolutely sure you know what it's beyond your target, and if it is, if there's something that is possibly unsafe, you do not let that that round or shell fly. Um, it's not a shell. You do not pull the trigger. It's probably better more accurate way to say that. You know, think first, shoot second is a big part of that. You think about the scenarios of what's gonna happen when you pull the trigger. Um, and once you're comfortable, then you shoot you know, and of course knowing how to use the gun safely, using the correct ammunition, understand the types of ammunition, certainly understanding when you should be wearing eye and ear protection because we often wear it at the range but not in the field. Be you know, and understand the operation of the gun and stuff will learn next time we're out at the range and other times. Also how to store a gun, how to clean a gun, what to do with it. I mean you have kids, Um, you don't have you have any guns in the house right now, Phil, Nope, no guns. Um, So now you're gonna have when I get you a gun, you're gonna have a gun in the house. And so you're gonna have to learn um and think through with your probably with your wife. What's this gonna mean. It might mean you're uncomfortable with having one in the house in the short term and it has to stay in my gun safe or um there's a way that you feel comfortable having it there. So there's there's things when you're when we're going through this with you, I figure out there if you're teaching someone and this is their first time, much like Phil, something to think about um and go over so We've got a lot of emails from a lot of new hunters here and every There's a lot of people that are in phil situation, and one of them is dom g Dominique Letty. He said, I just passed the hunter safety course and purchase a license for the year. My uncle is a lifelong hunter and we are planning on some deer and elk hans out here in Oregon this coming fall. Before that time comes, my plan is to go out shooting as much as I can, as well as longer hikes and backpacking trips to help train my body. I guess my question is would you recommend starting with smaller game first or just way to jump into these bigger hunts we have planned. I'm looking forward to learning, spending time my uncle getting to know more remote corners of my state, and he wants to also know, like what an elk smells like. He's looking forward to smelling an elk. Unfortunately, filled turkeys don't have a particular smell that I'm aware of, so but an elk shre does. And I would describe an elks smell is like a muskie. I'm not even sure how to really describe. It's something it's a really musky scent that turns your head as soon as you run into it in the timber in the woods. Um. In terms of the question dom G about bigger hunts, what should you be doing? I think a lot of it In terms of this learning to hunt is what are you What are you comfortable with? Like we talked about the beginning of this, what are you comfortable with? Are you comfortable with a single tag and the pressure that comes with you know, the kind of the singular opportunity to kill an elk? I mean you only have to say you only have one tag for this for the season, um? Or do you want to get more time behind a rifle shotgun in the in the squirrel woods or chasing rabbits? Um? That I'll give you a better understanding of killing an animal taking the meat. It's it's more fun, Certainly, the opportunities are more plentiful. So if you're looking for that, man, if you're looking to just get outside and experience what it's like to be out there and be be killing animals, um and taking their meat and eating it, certainly I would say, um, that's the exploration for you. But if you're okay with you know the big game hunt, which is exactly that. It's big man, It's it's every time you pull the rifle up, it's it's a singular opportunity to fill your You're probably your one tag, I would think in that case. So that's a decision you have to make. Certainly less pressure on a scorrel hunt. So if you're looking for more of a less pressure filled situation, I'd go there. But it depends on your mindset. Feel do you feel like turkey hunting is any pre any pressure about, you know, having a single turkey tag? Would you rather what we talked about ducks before, we talked about rabbits, We talked about all kinds of stuff in the past. Any any opinion there are you're just waiting for me to shut up so you can go out and uh no, no, definitely not not the ladder at least not too much. Um I I just it's just it's tough until I actually like, like, just from standing from a distance and looking in, I'd say that, like turkey hunting, it looks like a lot of fun. I think duck hunting looks like a lot of fun. Um. The more stories I hear about big game hunting. I feel like I would like to work up to it, and it's something that honestly from the outset doesn't like appeal to me. Maybe it will down the road, but like you know, obviously I'll try it, but just start starting out. I think I think Turkey, turkey and duck hunting, like just just look fun. It looks like a like a low stress good time if you want it to be um so good. Yeah I can't. Oh, man, I hope you love turkey. You still have my Colonel Tom Kelly. It's still Hill on my nightstand. Ben, Okay, I'm not asking you for the reason that I was putting together the new th HD studio at my house and I was like, it wasn't here, and I've got it. I've panicked. I panicked. So get get your reading the tenth Legion if you haven't already cracked it open, crack it open um. And I can't tell you, man, how this is. I mean, I have sons and I will take them hunting for the first time sometime soon. But until that time comes, Phil, you are I am your father. I'm your I'm your big thirty year old boy. Yeah, I am your father. If you know what I mean, this little Star Wars reference. You're feeling it, you're feeling it all right, Well, we'll appreciate you listen listening to this, and again when you hear the story from Armando, my good from Armando coming up. There are ways to prevent this tragedy that we're gonna hear here about, and there are ways to learn from it. It's it's I waded in my own mind. Is this something worthy of a podcast? Somebody died? Yeah, it was disrespectful to the person and their family who we do not know. On somebody I've ever met, or or and I don't know them. But again, if if this person's death can mean anything to us, and all the people that have have perished in hunting accidents can can mean anything to us, it's to help us learn and to be aware of what's happening, what's happening with other people, what's happening with ourselves. I really do think awareness and understanding that these gun safety rules, these n RAY gun safety rules are not you know, they're not only when you're new, they're every single day you go a field of the firearm. So hopefully that this is something everyone can take from this. We're gonna have a lot of fun with Rmando, he's one of my favorite people. A lot of laughs, but they're too Towards the end, we're gonna get serious. We're gonna talk about something it's very important to me and should be very important to all of you. As we get into the new year, everybody set a goal. I know I've had you guys do silly shit like drawl pictures of Phil's voice face and make poems and sing songs. We're still going to do all that, I promise, But if you all want to do something for me and fulfill this year, pledge to take someone out and teach them what we do. Or pledge to yourself to learn enough this year to be to find a way to give yourself the knowledge based required to take someone out. If we all do that, it will have been a good year. The number of people that listen to this podcasts all take out a new hunter. It will have been a good year for hunting, and we will be growing this thing in the right way. So now, my good friend Hunting Guide Wonderful. I think he might be in the mafia. There's no way to know. His name is Romando Benda Toozi Armando, How is it going, buddy, I'm doing well, thank you and yourself been Oh I'm doing just fine, just fine. It's a new year, a lot to talk about. But it's been long overdue to have you on this here podcast, So thanks for doing it. Oh it's my pleasure. Now you have some You have the distinct opportunity to tell some stories from the good old days that not a lot of people that come on this show have. So a distinct opportunity to tell some old stories about how I used to be, pre beard, young, pubescent, early days. Uh, do you want to reveal anything about my character, you know, to pre two thousand ten bub days? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you tell the people what it was like to know me when I just had a goatee and I was the other but a pup. Yeah. So I had the pleasure of of hosting Rob Bob up on a bear Hunt in oh nine, and we decided to do it again in and is like, you know, I know this good kid, he works at the n r A. He's new in the business. You know, maybe we we get him up and give him a shot. And I'm like, you know, what, what the hell? Someone gave me a shot. Why not, so I get to meet little old Benny, Little Benny, Little Benny. He had three three hairs on his chin, baby face. I didn't even think you were shaving it. Um, but you had just started at the n r A, and we drove you up to the Domain Shannon up in northern Quebec. And uh, what I remember, like it was yesterday, was when you pulled out that cannon that you brought us a gun, thirty five whale, and I feel like it was it was a single shot Thompson center break action thirty five whale and with the shortest barrel you could possibly get built to wreck your shoulder. We all figured out real quick that you've never done a bear hunt before, and maybe you there was a little bit of a fear factor in your choice of gun, Like all right, but you know what, I think it turned out really well. You you took a good bear. I ended up killing my first bear with a bow on that trip. If you didn't remember that you did, and um, I'm happy to say it was the start of a few adventures we did together and a pretty cool friendship over the years. Um Me being the older one, I guess I took the the that that drunk distant uncle and you're the nephew. I like that. Yeah, I always thought. I always thought, because you know Armando Vento toes, they always sounds so wonderfully Italian and wonderfully uh, wonderfully Canadian, wonderfully Quebec that you know, you would be my constltieri at time, and your wonderful wife and your children, you know, often spent time with me and took me in as someone who didn't know anything about anything. I'm happy to say. I'm happy to say for those that don't know. When you decided to leave UM the n r A, I believe at the time, and you were gonna go to the media company, we sat and had dinner and talked about that and I give you my opinion. And when you decided to go to Yeddi, you called and we talked about that, and I gave you my opinion on that. And I'm happy to say that your life is working out real well and that both of our our common understandings are working out for you. UM and both of those companies were very lucky to have you, in my opinion, And I'm not just saying that because you're my friend. You know, I don't. I don't usually beat around the bush, so um, yeah, I'm really glad how that worked out for you. And uh, and you come a long way from that little three three haired three chin haired dude that I met in thirty five whalen and a smile that gun man. Oh my god, I think the bear died from a heart attack. I think when he heard thirty five whale and I'm twenty yards away, what are you trying to do to me? Yeah, I had some learnings to do, as I still do. But yeah, it definitely is. You know when I remember when we met, we uh connected on movie quotes and just you know, sometimes when you meet somebody you just know right You're like, ah, it's my guy. It's gonna be my guy right here. And you're always been incredibly loyal and just a good person. You've raised I've known your children since I think they were I don't even know anymore, five six, seven years old. Josh was nine when you met him, and Livy was to not Yeah, she would not go near me for a while. I always like to say that she was maybe in love with me, but probably just the two year old. This weird guy always saying it around. Uh, Livy, Livy's got Livy's got some some character in her, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, that was pretty me. Even thinking about having kids and now married with two kids. I I feel, I feel where you were in life at that way back when. Isn't it awesome? Though? It's wonderful. Yeah, we just to see the little things. But we know the other day, I know you do a lot of waterfowl hunting and guide in these days. Um, the other day I was at a buddy's house and we were we shot a few geese and it was it was no big hunt. It was cool enough that we were pretty close to his house so the kids could watch us, you know, shooting geese as they passed over. And my little little guy got to plug a goose and chase the feathers around in the yard and you know, chop wings off with a hatchet, and you know, see and help me hang the goose up and see what a fully plucked goose looks like. It's just I mean those experiences. To me, that would have been a really quick and easy thing to do. You know, it would have been no big deal. But to watch him experience that and then you know, chasing feathers that are flying around the wind and have the best time in his life. If that doesn't ground you and and level things off, I don't know what will. So I know you were telling me that your kids are growing up and you missed the days when you just had a little sidekick running around. Oh yeah, like Josh. Well, you know, Josh has been following me around, um since he was like six years old. I took him up on his first trip. And he's at that age now where it's girls and uh, girls, and I'd like to say something else, but it's just it's girls. But he's a good kid. He's in college. He wants to be a policeman. Um. And Livy is in high school now and she she still comes along. She likes to turkey hunt with me. Um. You know it's important, I think at all. It's it's very important to get your kids out. Let him try. They'll come around. You know, you kind of force it on them, like I see you with your kid. He's he's an truly in love with the outdoors, which is awesome. It's at some point it may it may um straight from that, but ultimately they'll come back to it and you'll be happy you did it. And they grew up way too fast. I know that's the thing, man, I would do. I I am in that little buddy phase with my my older son. He just is everywhere I go. He seems to just want to do everything I do. And I remember that with my dad. You know you've met my dad, Like I still feel kind of that way if he was living around, if he was living around these parts, I would still kind of feel that way about hanging out with him. But but definitely, ah, I'll miss this time when it's gone. And I know that now. You know in the moment that I'll miss this time when when whether it's football or um anything football, hunting, plucking a goose. Um. He's excited for turkey season this year. We were in the store the other day and he's like, pie turkey call by as a son, I have a thousand turkey calls. He said, one for me and you to use. I was like, all right, perfect, I bought. I bought a couple of turkey calls. So he he felt like he had some ownership or something. So it's just so just just to give you a little quick story about turkey calls. I tried forever to master a diaphragm a mouth call, and all I could do was get like a gag sound coming out, you know, it just it didn't work. Livy popped one in her mouth and within I don't know five seconds, she was she was clucking away, and I was like, what in the hell. And I don't know if it motivated me or it made me mine up, but that's that night. I ended up finally making some turkey sounds out of that, out of that diaphragm. But she puts it in her mouth and she'll look at me and it's like, what the hell. Yeah, you just never know you'd like him, You like him to have that, like have this this idea that they're going to be better than you, and there's there's nothing you can do. Maybe slow that down, you know, the teaching, teaching him for a while before they teach you. Uh, that was so much. Yeah, it's just a good it's such a you know, when you have something that you love as much as we love at the outdoors, you know we should probably tell people what you have done and what you do for a living. But now when you have have this love. You know, you'd like desperately want them to come along. It's never gonna be perfect. Um. And I don't know if i'd want my kid to do exactly what I do because I started out just hunting with my dad. And he was telling me the other day, He's like, I didn't know anything we started hunting, you know, I was just doing what I knew how to do. Um, I don't know if I want my kid to have anything but that experience. You know, it's just a pretty normal hunting experience with his dad. Would be would be just fine with me. Nothing, nothing too fancy. I agree, I agree, Well we should. You know, when I met you, you were you were doing a lot of bear guiding. You were doing you know, like I said, Domaine Shannon, is that still around? That that's about stiff. I still my my daughter and I we go up every spring to Walleye Fish. I don't really do the bear hunts there. I haven't been a while, um, for no other reason, just that, you know, other opportunities presented themselves. And sure, um, in time, you know, you you make decisions, you go for the owners are are still dear friends of mine. And I mean I don't miss I don't miss an opening, an opening weekend. For while, iye fishing with Livy Um when I met you. Also, I had the bars back then. Yeah, I remember that. I remember thinking, like I remember thinking, this guy's like I was watching last night, I was up watching Good Fellows. I'm like, this guy's a good fellow. This guy's like, this guy is he is, he owns the bar. I remember, you know, you had like it's such a warm energy in Quebec where we went, you know, and you had walking in your bar. Everybody loves you, you love everybody, like it was just it just felt like this guy, this guy is a good fellow. I think I'm not not quite but um yeah, the bar of life, I'm you know what it did. It's time. It allowed me to to do a lot and it was fun. Um. But you know in life, you like you did, you turn the page and you go forward with other things. Right, that's right, that's right. Well, you know over the years, you've you know, guided for for bears up in northern Quebec. You in Saskatchewan. You were telling me I got in for bears and I know there's a white tail and waterfowl opportunities over there. You've you've kind of branched out into some waterfowl there locally around where you are. Give people just it's just a rundown on how you came to hunting and um just because I'll tell you this, and when I met you too, I remember thinking, this guy is a hunting guy, like you're like, you got style, you got flash, you own a bar downtown, like this guy is. This guy is not a rural hunting guy like you have. And now you're in real estate, like you just have this air about you of someone that's cool and maybe even urban if I would put it, that's probably a bad way to put it. But like you just you just it's it's not something that I expected the two sides of you. So give people like how you came to be in the outdoors and guiding folks. Well, I've I've, believe it or not, I've I've been fishing since I'm like three years old with my grandfather. Um in my family, be at my mom's side, my dad's side, my wife, anybody in her side. I'm the only person who hunts. And I started hunting when I was like twenty two or twenty three. Years old. UM, my friend door neighbor and his uncle, his uncle Tony. He invited me. He's like, you know, kid, you want to come? And I said, yeah, sure, so let's try. And he took me deer hunting and I seem to enjoy it. It was okay. Um. He gave me my first gun and then he took me out um on a on a bird hunt, and that triggered something inside me. And I've been I've been, you know, in love with water of foul hunting ever since. Um, the big game, you know, like everyone in my area. It's like you you hunt deer, you hunt moose. I mean, I've done it. I worked at Safari nordic Um prior to meeting you. That's a caribou operation. That's unfortunately the Quebec Caribou um hunting no longer exists. Um. I worked there for two years as in sales, which allowed me to meet so many people. We were running like twelve clients through their season. I met some fantastic people. I met, you know, the TV guys. I met Ralph, I met Michael Woodell, Jim Shocky, I mean all the all the big wigs. I met Rob Bob we should clarify shot out to Bob, I haven't talked to him for a long time. When a wonderful Um. But yeah, actually I read I read an article of his in the s CI magazine the last issue. I was giggling all by my off every time I see Oh Bob, Rob, Yeah, man, that that's an interesting time in your life, one that I kind of met you at the tail end of and when I was telling you before we got on that I wanted to talk about and if only if, like I think, to start to understand the culture of where you live, um, and kind of the way hunting was looked at back then. I mean, we say back then, it's not that long ago. Um. Back then there was such an energy around caribou hunting in that side and really the Rust Belt, really people on the East Coast in the United States were coming up in droves to hunt caribou. Um in the northern Quebec Herds. M hm, yeah we um so Partner Dick at the time was the biggest caribou operation in Quebec. Um. There were plenty of good ones, you know, like people would call I mean, I was, I was the director of sales at the time. And all this was when I had the bar, So that's what I mean. When the bar allowed me to do a lot of things. So uh, you know, I had a lot of three time, so I was able to build my my sales I don't want to see, you know, technique, but that's the only way to say it, to build my my sales technique. Um. And we were running like those were the heydays. Let's say, oh six, oh seven, oh eight, o nine, we were averaging that about clients per per season. Then I left the company in oh nine, and that's when I mean it's just coincidence. Like oh ten, the number started dwindling, eleven even less, and it just started getting progressively harder and hardert for nordiqu went out of business. Um, A lot of the others went out of business. And I think the last time I was up there was right about five years ago, right like just before they closed the hunt. They closed it for the biologists. You know, they claimed that the the herd took such a massive hit and a decline in numbers that they ultimately said it's due to hunting, So we're going to close down the hunting. Um I'm not you know, I'm not versed in the politics side of it. Obviously the world we live in, you know, that has something to do with it. So more than that, I don't know. But it was a fantastic industry here in Quebec that people came, not just from the East coast like the West coast Mexico, from Europe. I I met people from We had guides working for us from Australia. Um Matt one of Jim Shocky's guides, he's he was on He used to work for Safari Nordic and that's where I met him. He was you know, people just wanted to to live that experience. And I say it today, it's too bad that it's closed. But if you ever had the opportunity to go up into the Arctic and experience that, it's an experience like no other. I mean we all say, yeah, there's the the Africa's and the Argentina's and this, but there's some in about that Arctic. I mean I was fortunate enough to go up like five times and no, no, no time was like nothing was ever duplicated. It was always something new, something. I mean the last time I went up there, I had the privilege of hosting Blake Sheldon Um and his group, and it was it was pretty awesome. But that aside, I got to go quad writing in the Arctic, through rivers, places that no one's ever walked before, and I was I was writing a quad um, doing miles and miles and miles each day to go kill tarm again, and like just something that every person should have tried to experience, especially if you're a hunter. It's just it was magical. And the fact that that's over really really sucks. You know, there's no nice way to put it. It just sucks. Yeah, and there's you know, we certainly could have biologists on that. We'll talk about you know, exactly why this all went down. But when when you you certainly look at the from the early nineteen seventies through the ninety nineties and in in the early two thousand, you know when you were kind of like like you said, you're kind of there at the tail end of it, maybe the precipice, and then you know, as it started to fall down. But from the seventies of the nineties, you know, que back caribou were I mean, they were in a special place in the heart of American hunters. They really were. I mean, there was such a it was accessible, Um, it was affordable, and like you said, it was an adventure. It was. It was an adventure. I never I never got to go do it myself, but I know my dad did. Um and I knew that you did. And I had, you know, seen the country, um bear hunting with you, you you know, further south obviously, but understanding the culture around it, and then even seeing you know, the hotel what was the pit stop hotel that you guys had people flying you know, come into when they flew to the Hilton. The Hilton, Yeah, the Hilton there. Uh, it was just full of hunters man as this. It was a cool scene. It just felt like a pretty timeless thing. And then you you know, two bull hunts for a lot of outfitters was like you know what, I don't know what you guys charged, but bucks guys could drive across the border in Buffalo, they could drive across the border in Champagne, you know the windsor they could they could do something. You know, at least where I came from. That was awesome. Um. And they were you know in places like the southwest of Kuju Act. They were in a place called the barons. Um they could really see what you just described, which is a flying camp on a on a lake in some of the most amazing country. Um. And it didn't feel all that far off, you know, which is important. It was it honestly was actually uh, I just looked at it was the last time I was up, so I think they closed it right at Yeah, that was when the hunt was over. Yeah, there's two there's so there's I was just looking. There's two herds. There was a leaf River herd, and then there was the George Ever heard, right, Yeah, and they were you know which the George Ever heard at a shorter migration moving along that Quebec Labrador border border. But you know, at its height, maybe it was eight thousand animals in that herd, and to see even a quarter of that, half of that, a tenth of that I'm moving across the landscape, you know, must have been amazing. And now you know today maybe it's five or six or seven thousand cariboo. Um. So it's it's just interesting too. Again, I don't think we're I'm not in a position nor I don't I think you are to really go into you know, the population dynamics here. I'm sure predation, winner kill, global warming, over hunting, all of those things probably went into this. UM. But as much as I know about it, there's not There's not a bunch of biologist saying it was one thing. Um. No, it was it was it was a collective of a few different things. I know, like the Oh the Oh nine season, we started seeing a lot of sick caribool A lot of them had that mange. Yeah. UM, I'm sure that that factors in. Uh. You know, UM, But like I said, I'm not a biologist. I don't know what it is. All I know is um it it really like closing that it really really really hurt um an industry that a lot of people had every dollar they had invested in. You know. UM. I was president at the time of Safari Club chapter here in Montreal, and I remember when I got to UM Torino No in Vegas in I think you were there that that year that I met with you. UM. One of the outfitters from Quebec had left me a voicemail and he's like, I need you to come by my booth. I absolutely want to see you. And he was one of the oldest outfitters here. UM and the man like he literally broke down in tears, like is there anything you guys could do? And I told him, I go, listen, I go. It's it's not a legal matter. When the biologists do their tests and there's you know, our our argument doesn't hold water against the biologists. Basically what they say goes when it comes to the well being of a species or or you know. So. I but to to see a man who for fifty years ran a top notch operation and fed his family and gave jobs and brought money because it brought a lot of money to kuduac, the hotels in Montreal, um, the restaurants. I mean, it just annihilated a very very big industry and it's it's too bad. I hope probably not. But I would love for one day for for even if it's open on a limited you know, a limited matter like a draw tiger or whatever, but just for for to give people the opportunity to go up and experience it would be pretty awesome. Yeah. I remember my friend Andrew McKeen uh went up there and reported on it for Outdoor Life and wrote a really good story and I remember reading it. You know, this would have been like two years ago probably and just man feeling really sad because they're they're haven't gone north, you know, to north in the northern parts of the Northwest territories in the Mackenzie Mountains, these towns like yellow Knife and some other towns. Once you get far reaching into the northern Canada, um and into the territories, they rely on these They rely on this economy. I mean it is their economy at some level. Um. If you go there, you can see why there's not a lot of tourism opportunities, I mean their outposts, um, and they rely on this, but there was I just was looking at a two thousand sixteen report Quebec's provincial Department of Parks and Wildlife. They said, recent documentary documentary analysis has clear clearly revealed that the main threats to the long term survival of migratory caribou populations are over exploitation through hunting and poaching, the expansion of occupation of the territory and the attendant industrial activities, as well as climate change. So basically all the things we listed, Um, you know, wolves certainly are are are in there. Um. They talk a lot about the fickle nature the yo yo nature of population dynamics within caribou herds, my specifically migratory caribou herds, and that report that I read a little bit, Um, there's evidence of YO young populations over the last two hundred years. UM. And they respond weather and predator numbers and so many other things. So maybe there is hope that that can get going again, and hope that we've learned something from it. Um. We certainly learned to cherish it. I would imagine you would agree, Oh, you better believe it. Those are, honestly, buddy, those are some of my some of the best days ever spent up there. And you know what, I'm not gonna lie. You know, people every day people say, oh, you love your job. You love your job. I loved working at Safari and Radique. When I met people at the hotel, it allowed me to meet so many people, and like indirectly, it it led me to even become your friend, because if I don't meet I don't meet Rob Bob, I never meet you. You know what. I'm so not just not just the the hunting factor of it, like everything about it was awesome, UM. And I if they would ever open up again, and I had the opportunity to go work there again. I mean, I jump on it, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I just felt like a moment in time that was important, um, for hunting and for you know, like like I said, when I was with you at that hotel, it just felt like it just I was like, man, this feels this feels pretty special. It feels like something. This feels like a moment in hunting history that will all look back on and be like, man, it was cool to be up here. And and I guess that's evidence by all of the you know, all the celebrities and big name folks that came through there, um, you know, and that I watched on TV and read about in magazines and and that's no longer. Um, you know, there's still migratory here's in Alaska that we can hunt. There's there's a bunch of things that can happen. But it just felt like, you know, where you were at that time and what you were doing definitely meant something, you know, for a lot of people. All Right, Well, you know, moving on from that, I do I kind of this has inspired me kind of return to that at some point in ine and and think about you know, from a from a science and biology and ecology perspective, what happened? Because what what a like what a case study? That hurt is both in its cyclical nature and its fickle nature, and you know how accessible it was for hunters and what it meant to guys like you in the whole industry over time. So it feels it feels do you feel like that crippled, I mean that completely wiped out an industry? Did that cripple hunting in Quebec in a way? Or you feel like it's still with waterfowl and bears and all the other things that are available, still vibrant. The bears, the spring bears. Up until COVID was still a very very big industry for Americans to come up and hunt everything else like not really um, the waterfowl maybe a little bit, but nothing like the caribou or the spring bear. Spring bear hunting is still very very popular for um for Americans to come up and do. UM. They usually like like you experienced that you combo it up with like walleye fishing and um people left to sightsee Montreal, Montreal is awesome. UM, so you know, believe it or not, depending the groups. I would book that came up in to bear hunt, I'd try and and work them that they arrived the week of the Grand Prix, which is the busiest time in Montreal, and it's like if you've never experienced big city life and the parties and this and that. So I'd get my hunters to fly in like on the Friday overnight Friday Saturday, and then we drive up Sunday morning to camp and whatever condition we'd be in after two nights of Grand Prix downtown. But that industry, I mean that that we didn't have that the summer either. And I mean, like everyone else, I'm not I'm not saying we're you know that we suffered more than anyone else. Everyone else suffered, Um, but the tourism industry and in a hole, Um, it's something that that a lot of people live on, and uh we all suffered in that that caribou hunt. It hurt a lot of people. Yeah yeah, I mean you know, and then you have the what what COVID has done over time and and you know it's not a good it's really something we we did it first Light our company. First Light, we looked at how can we help outfitters and and in time. You know, we we donated a percentage of sales to some organizations and gave people discounts if they booked, you know, showed us that they booked with an outfitter this last year. So, I mean, there's such so many things we can do, um, especially when restrictions are lifted, you know how it is now. I mean, so many outfitters had to cancel haunts from last year then this year, and so they're they're way backlogged on on folks that either had already paid um. You know. And I was talking to a few outfitters up there, including Jim Shocky. He was telling me that, you know, they the work doesn't stop. You can't stop maintaining and spending the money on the camps and spending the money on on all the infrastructure you need to get those clients up there. You can't just leave it alone. UM. And so you still have sunk cost with no income, no revenue. UM. So it's a tough time for that industry, your industry really well. I'll tell you this in UM I hunted bear for the first time and like maybe five years this year because the outfitters that I deal with here in Quebec. We had no clients, and he still ran all sixty five baits to keep it just like you said, you mean, you got to keep it consistent and keep it going. And you know, um the owner called me up. He's like, you know, they lifted the restrictions to travel, like for us, it was the island of Montreal was the hardest hit. So for a while there they didn't encourage us to leave the Island of Montreal, you know what I mean. Um, So he's like, well, they lifted that restriction, why didn't you come up? So I went up and and I hunted bear and I mean the guy kept his morale and his attitude was was great. But he incured the same amount of costs minus perhaps the food costs or um some of the employee costs, but debating the gas the time it you know, you can't just stop. You gotta keep it going. You gotta up keep your your blinds and you gotta upkeep your trails. And um. So that that's what happened here and in Saskatchewan, um, where I do most of my booking since two thousand and ten. Um, like clothes, like you know, I'm going to invest the money for the bird season and if we don't have it, well it'll be an extra X amount of dollars in the red column, and same one for the deer season. Um, and you know, we were blessed, Thank the Lord. I put together a couple of little meeting greets here in Montreal when I saw that the American clients it wasn't gonna happen, and I ended up booking like three weeks worth of waterfowl hunters, which was really good. Um. He kept us busy and we ended up selling all eight deer tags even though we didn't have a single American client. We just you know, we're we're booked solid with all the carryovers, and three quarters of two has already booked up. As far as deer hunting goes, I will say this and and it shows I've always said, you know, like you go into a hunting camp, and I think you and I have have said this. You and I could have never met and probably would have never crossed paths. You went to hunting camp and a lot of times you build a bond, you build friendships, you build relationships. I will say this on those eight clients that had given deposits, some had paid in full because a lot of the hunters they pay in full at the end of their trip for the following year. You know. Uh, not a one called and said, well, would send me back my money? Too bad? You know, we're conceling. Not one. They all said, we want to do our part to keep you guys afloat, keep the deposit, just transfer us over the next year, which I found that very noble. Um. When you when when you see people like they know a lot of these businesses if if they lose that income one year, a year and a half, they'll go out of business. Um. So I found that really really cool. And I mean we were blessed. We were blessed that we we still we still sold eighty tags, um two Quebeckers. The owner of my Saskatchewan outfit is from Montreal. Um, So you know, I gave it an opportunity to eighty Quebeckers who wouldn't normally have come hunt out west because we are booked up with American clients every year. Gave them the opportunity to come and experience it. And it was it was still a pretty good season. We had a good time, you know. Yeah. I mean that's the thing too, is it's so for so many people, my dad included. I don't book as many outfit a hunts, but I'm sure you know, I sure would love to have the time to do it. You know. That's such it's it's it's a loss. There's like a sense of loss. People look forward those trips every year to come with you guys and to come up there and have those adventures. Um. They look forward to getting out of town and and le either loading up the truck drive across the border or flying in and bringing their their firearms and their bows. And they look forward to that. And so I think a lot of it's the relationship, it's a sum of it's also that you know, COVID took that away from him, and they want to get it back as soon as possible. You know, next year, I'm coming, no matter what, you know. So I I've seen that, and of all the losses of COVID, you know, certainly every hunting outfit or I talked to has kind of said the same thing. Out of Buddy and Kodiak that was telling me that he's taken out more local folks than ever. Um, it's kind of the same as you just said. So it's good to see that that at some level, even though you still have that sunken cost and these are not been good times, it's still you know, marries up the fact that people really need these outlets, They really need these type of hunts that are out of town, that are away from where they are, and and that are that feel like adventure, no matter what, no matter what. It was nice to see. You know, one of my fellow guides in Saskatchewan, Nicholas, he had just purchased with his wife a fishing camp in northern Saskatchewan, and you know, it was going to be his first year of operation. He was all excited and Covid like beat the ship out of him, right. He lost all his clients, and there too, he was, you know, like his clients were cool. They they said, you know, we know you guys are new in business. Not a one asked for their money back, which it goes to say, I mean, you know, I'm Italian, like you said, I'm old school. I look at these things loyalty and stuff like that, and I just I find it really really really nice to see, especially like when you see all the bullshit in the world. You know, it's nice to see people backing each other up like that. I like that, you know, Yeah, well that's you know, that's that's when I first met you. I'm like, you know, this guy is he's got every all the characteristics of the alliens. Yeah. Yeah, You're really stereotypical, is what you are. You treat, but you treat people would respect, you have loyalty, like you know, it just feels like that. That's when you have that relationship. And like you said, when you share hunting with somebody, it seems easier to get along. It just seems like easier because you have a shared value system, you kind of understand each other and you like the same stuff. Um, that's a lot easier. M. We always talked about having you on and it's probably my fault more than anything, and for not having to come and just talk, talk some ship and have a good time. But you sent me a message recently, UM with a pretty pretty impactful story. I guess it's it's hard to describe it. I wasn't there. I don't know, but I'm sure impactful is a good way to start with it. UM. Something from a from a human perspective, from a guide perspective, from a hunting perspective that you hope never happens. Um, And I you know, hesitate to force you to talk a whole lot about it, but I know you want to share some stuff and there was some learning. So if you want to give people just kind of a rundown of what happened, and hopefully we can talk about it and we can learn some things from from the shop. Um. So my my my main occupation. You know, I'm a real estate agent, but I've been a waterfowl guide now for like five years and I've been a waterfowl hunter for for twenty years. I've been blessed. I've made some awesome relationships I've had, I have some awesome mentors. Um. You know, here in Quebec, I got a guy like Roger Glodzoo, who was like a legend here. He's he's taught me in his own way because his character is very special. Um. You know, Bill Safe, I could pick up a phone and I'll get a guy like like a guy like Tony Vandermore who runs probably one of the biggest operations in the US. He'll take the time to give you advice or talk or whatever. Like it says a lot for me with some of the relationships I've built over the years. Um. And it also it also goes to show that a lot of us, especially waterfowlers, I mean, we all do it. We we we we look at stuff in in in a light way many times that we don't realize sometimes like the dangers or the risks that we take until things hit home. Um. When I first started hunting with with Bill Safe in New York. Bill does a a speech every morning with his clients. And it doesn't matter if you've find and I mean, Benny, you've been there, you've heard this speech. I just had like a really warm nostalgic moment when you said that dude's name, because I haven't thought about him for a long time. But what a wonderful guy man. Yeah, and I mean the guy and he's he's he grew me up. You know, he's known me since I'm a kid. And it doesn't matter that he knows I guide, he knows I do all this. I hear that speech every morning. If I hunt with him five days in a row, I hear it five days in a row and we laugh, you know, like shoot a bird in the pocket and if you fall off the boat. I mean, we all laugh about it, but at the end of the day that that speech hits home. And when I go waterfowl hunting here in Quebec, even though I'm wearing waiters, and when I'm on the boat, I'm maybe one of the only guys, or if you're with one of the only guys that's wearing a life jacket in that boat. I see the other guys. They they take unnecessary risk. And when I guide for waterfowl in Saskatchewan, um, I take the ten minutes every morning, even if it's the same guys five days in a row, and I go over the safety. You know, don't shoot this way, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that. And you know what most people, I want to say, listen a lot, don't a lot laugh about it. Um, And it's all funding games until unfortunately someone gets hurt or worse. Um. You know, I've taken guys friends of mine one thing that maybe shouldn't have been in the blind, but because they're your friends, you say, well whatever, you know, it's all good. And for the longest time, like my biggest fear or my biggest speech was guys, whatever you do don't shoot my dog because it's not you know, it's not gonna go over too well with me. Um. You know that because we don't think further than that, right. So I came back from from guiding deers I was. I was away for five weeks in Saskatchewan. I was guiding deer hunters and I was itching to go on a on a waterfall hunt. And like I said, I'm blessed. I know a lot of really good guides here in Quebec. I don't guide in Quebec. I don't have the time or the where the resources to go and do it. I live in the city. Um, so I just I book, you know, those eight ten hunts locally here and then I go with my friends. These guys have become my friends. And this one particular morning he called me up. He's like, dude, the snow geese are tight. You want to come in? And he knew I wanted to get my dog, Maverick. I wanted to try and get him up to a thousand retrieves for the season. We're like right at nine. So I'm like, yeah, okay, you know, it'll be fun if you could get fifty sixty retrieves it will be good. So I went and I went alone, myself and the dog, and we were six guys that had never met each other. Um, actually I'm lying. Two of them said they knew me from a hunt last year. When he makes like you know, the guys, they mix up groups. If you're two and he has a group of three, they always try and be six seven guys for it to be to be worth the money to go out in the time. I mean snow goose hunting here is uh, you do a set up every morning and it could be like eight nine a thousand, a thousand full body decoys. So it's you don't want to do it in two guys, You're you're happy when you're eight nine guys doing it. Um, a great bunch of guys. You know. We all looked at each other and we got in our blinds and because of COVID, we're actually four or five ft apart instead of being huddled one against the other, which is kind of cool. It's comfortable. And I started to chatting with the guy next to me, kind of Benny, like you'll you'll know this thing. Like at one point I looked at him and like, did we just become best friends. Like the guy was super cool. We exchanged phone numbers and Facebook and you know, like it just clicked and and and it's really nice to see. Um. So Max, the guide he does his speech, and it's funny because you know, like there's certain things that he says his speech in French, but if you translate him, it sounds exactly what I say in English, or what Bill will say or what you know. Um, but all of us, you know, like we stress safety guys. You don't do this, do this, do this, do this. And and then we sat down and we started getting ready to hunt. Um So, about a half hour in, I looked to my left and I see a couple of smells coming and like we're six guys in the blind and there's two gears coming into decoy. And even though I been like five weeks, I hadn't shot my gun. I knew my dog had not retrieved in five weeks. So I kind of wanted to, you know, just worry about him and not worry about annihilating these two geese with six or seven of us shooting at him. So I turned to the guy Dave next to me, and I'm like, okay, dude, I'm gonna I'm just gonna work the dog. I'm not even gonna shoot on this. And he's like, yeah, okay, cool. So when I died in Saskatchewan, we're not allowed we're not allowed to shoot with the clients. So force of habit, I get on my knees next to my dog and I hold his collar. Um, you know, And I mean, I don't want to sound like an asshole, because there's always that one guy who will shoot a bird in the decoys or whatever. And if my dog is running around in there, like I said, I don't want anybody shooting my dog, you know what I mean. Um. So I'm holding Maverick and I'm watching these two birds. I'm watching these two birds and like boom boom boom boom boom boo boom, the guns are going off and I'm hearing behind me, I'm hearing no no. So I'm laughing. I go, look at these guys. I would have, you know, and not because I'm better than anybody, but they were just they were to my right. I would have got up and it would have been boom boom and it would have been finished. I go, seven guys, only one bird felt so I opened the door and I sent my dog. Right During all this shooting, I had felt like a bit of commotion behind me. I didn't really pay much attention to it, because you know the force of habit, you know, during the waterfall season, I do this every day. As I stand up, I turned around and, um, you do like I did like a double take, you know. I looked, and I looked again, and I didn't see Dave. I didn't see him. He wasn't next to me anymore. But I did see the third guy. And the third guy is like sitting on his key stirt and he's staring at me with this look of horror. And I'm like, what I mean. I don't know if I could swear in here, but I said, what the fund just happened? I turned around and I see Dave is laying flat on his face, and like, I froze for a split second, and I jumped up and I'm screamed to the guide. I'm like, dude, call nine one one. This is not good. He gets up. As he's dialing nine one one, He's running out of the field because I'm gonna get my truck. I'm gonna get my truck. I jumped down. I call nine one one on my phone and and um, another one of the guys comes over and I says, do it. Hold on my phone and I'm trying to I'm trying to see, like did he just get hit in the head or whatever. And the gentleman next to me and he's like, I fell, I fell. My gun went off. My gun went off. I fell, And and I guess in in in the moment, you're trying to understand what this guy is saying. But at the same time, I was trying to look at what's wrong with Dave, um, because you know, this is not something you expect to happen anyway. Um. I look on the back of Dave's jacket. I don't see any blood anywhere, and I'm like, maybe he got hit in the head. I mean, I had my back to all of this because I was on my knees, you know, UM, handling my dog. Nine one one comes on. I started talking with and and when you call it one on, I guess it's an operator at first for us here and go back, and uh so I'm like, dude, I go I'm trying to feel for a pulse. I can't feel for a pulse. There's no blood. I mean, I don't I don't know what's going on. And he's like, is this a hunting accident? And I must saying yeah. He goes okay because the the other guide was on the phone. I guess they were. The two dispatchers were one next to each other, so that he was aware of what was going on, so he transferred me over to a paramedic. Um. So Dave is lying next to me on his on his stomach. I'm trying to feel for a pulse. I don't feel for a pulse, and there's there's no blood. It's not like in the movies. And he's not talking or moving at all at this point, like he's just totally lifeless. Right, And on the back of his jacket, I see three holes. But again, we all watched movies and you know the blood spraying everywhere. There's none of that. So I'm still hopeful that he just got hit in the head with the barrel of a gun when this this other gentleman fell right. Um, I mean, Benny, you knew me when I was fat, I was I was a bigger guy then. Um, So just just to pointing, you know, and adrenaline. Uh, this guy, Dave was bigger than I was, and I was on my knees and I don't know how I did it, but I lifted him up and I just turned him over onto his back. At wish point, I saw that, you know, like he had like a big blood but coalgulated blood in his nose and his tongue was sticking out, and the nurses trying to walk me through this. So I mean, I clean out his nose. This poor bustard has any chance to fucking breathe. He's not gonna breathe with his nose jammed up like. So I cleaned out his nose and try and put his tongue back in his mouth, and I started, I started doing CPR on him, and you know, my hats off to that paramedics. She she stayed on the phone with me and like she was counting and I was counting, and um, I don't know how long. This went on for maybe ten minutes. And all the while I would, you know, I would do three sessions and check for a pulse, three sessions and check for a pulse in three sessions. Anyway, Um, when the cops, the cops finally arrived. They they they took over. It's you know that part. They don't let you stay around and assist them. They grab you and they moved out of the way. Yeah. Um. And then you know, the paramedics showed up and they tied him up to a defibrillator and they tried to revive them. But at that point, just like I had, I had seen when when I first took his pulse, he wasn't breathing. But my, my, my actions, I was told after the fact by by all the police officers and the paramedics, UM, and even the investigators after the fact, my my ten minutes of pumping on his chest had at least given him a fighting chance to maybe be defibrillated. You know, yeah, did did you feel, I mean, when you flipped them over, did you see like was their trauma on his chest? Is that where that the shot went through? Was it all in his face or the shot from how I from how I was explained when the guy so after the fact that just just I'll go forward and then I'll go back, just to give you an idea after the fact, after c S I, we'll call him c S I, because they were there the old fucking day, and they barred us from getting our stuff. His gun, believe it or not, even though they had investigated, his gun still had a fucking shell in it. So he had gotten two shots off. And what I think happened is the guy next to him either and I, like I said, I didn't see it, so I'm gonna assume either as he was standing up had his safety off and when he fell back, had his finger on the trigger and shot, or as he shot he lost his footing and he shot him like right straight under his shoulder blade. And at that distance. The reason there was no blood is I mean he took the whole blunt of the shot, the wad everything went in and basically almost like sealed the hole as it went in. That's why there was no blood. Um. And I guess like when you when you when your lung shot a deer or whatever and you find him the all the blood is sticking out of his nose and his tongue is dangling out. Well, that's exactly what it looked like. H um. And uh yeah, So that poor man, that poor man he kept you know, while I was doing the the CPR. He you know, is he alive? Is he alive, and it was just that he's an older man. You know, I don't want this fucking guy to get even have a heart attack and and and die. And you see he's in like he's in shock, you know. I mean, I'm not better than anybody else. But but we were seven guys there, and I was the only guy that that was on him. You know, um that that everyone else was handling it the way you handle yourself during during trauma. But like I said, I mean that, you know, in life, you've got a man up. You do you do man ship when it's time to be a man. And I've always I've always lived my life like that. I'm not gonna let you know my fears or whatever or my disgustedness of COVID or worried about getting a little blood stopped me from helping somebody. Never never, never, never, it will never happen. I just assumed not be alive if I have to live my life that way. Um. So that poor man when when the cops came, he just he collapsed and they rushed him to the hospital too. You know, m he's dead, but that this other guy is his life is never going to be the same accident. It was a accident. Like the cops, they they bring you in and you know it's they do their their whole spield. They gotta they got a job to do. And I caught two really good cops and I kept my kept my composure for for most of the interview. But at one point, you know, I guess it affected me as well. Right Ah, my friends that hunt with me, Like when you hunted with me, you sat next to me right so up until I called my friend Seragio, who up until ten o'clock the evening before, canceled on me. Um Sergio usually is the one who stands right next to me, and and I'm like, fuck, this could have been you, or it could have been Josh, could have been my son. How the fund do I call? How do I call your wife and tell her this happened because I invited your husband on a hunt? You know what I mean? Well, going back to what you were saying about how to act in this, I don't think anybody really knows how they're gonna respond to something like this, But I would want you there if I could pick you know, if I had, if I had a top five, I would You'd be in there. So I mean, I think that guy was lucky to have have you there, even though he didn't make it. Um on that level. But I guess the other the other point is like that is I mean it It makes me stop and pause because we talk. We've talked on this show, and we've talked within our company about uh wilderness medicine. We just did a book about survival, right, We did a book about how to survive in in you know, far flung places or in when you're alone. But we rarely talk about and this happens in other types of of bird hunting as well, upland hunting. As you well know, this is a thing. You know, you're walking in line with a bunch of guys with shotguns. Um, here you're in close quarters with a bunch of shotguns and a bunch of individuals you don't know, and there's a certain level of trust. Accidents happen. But boy, this is man, this is that's tough. Even without ever meeting Dave or or knowing him, it's tough for me to hear man is a hunter knowing this is this, this could happen. Um, it happens more than we'd like it to. It does and you know, um, my friend who who is the guide. It's funny how people, you know, some people are just any excuse to to shoot on you or whatever. Since then, I haven't really heard much buzz, but like on some of our our local social media pages or whatever, you know, you'll hear you always hear that that stupid comment. Well, it's the guide and this guide is absolutely probably, if not in my opinion, the best waterfowl guide in Quebec and security wise, he does everything by the book. I try and and and and be the same way. When I'm in Saskatchewan, Bill does it when he is there. Claudio will do it. In Alberta. H an accident happens. Man. Unfortunately we were involved in a sport or an activity where our accidents don't forgive um. That evening, when I got home and I called Clothe, my boss and Saskatchewan, he was still he was still in camp. I needed I needed to talk to him about a couple of things, and you know, I wanted to bring him up to speed because for sure someone was going to call and tell him that I was there and involved. I made a point to tell him, I'm like, you know what, dude, I don't care how much money they pay next year. I truly don't. And if you're my client and you're hearing this, I'm sorry, I don't care how much money you pay if you don't have the the head, or the intelligence or the decency to listen and to try and be safe. When you're in a blind with three, four or five other people, you yourself, you could be your family member. Then you know what, get back in your car, go away from me in the car, and we'll refund your money if you want to go home. But there ain't no Mallard. As much as I live killing Millards. Ain't no Millard worth my life or my dog or yours or anybody else's for that matter. Um and and and it's unfortunate. It takes something like this to open your eyes as onto, you know, to being secure and being safe. I went on my my after the fact that I told my wife I wasn't gonna go hunting anymore. And I mean, you know, Rosa, she's as tough as they come, as far as wives go. Or she backs me up and everything I want to do. And so she was relieved, like she wasn't she was scared when I called her that day, and like everyone else, she thought something happened to Maverick. And when I told her no, unfortunately, some other guys paid the price for an accident. Like she was in panic. Um. I got invited on a hunt and I and I ended up going with another another guide and it was with some guys that I hunted with before, so it put me a little bit. Maybe it made my getting back into it a little bit easier, right because I know the guy next to me is it's very, very aware of his surroundings and doesn't take needless, needless chances. And then like last week was the first time I went back on a hunt in one of those a frame style blinds, like where that accident happened, and the guy who invited me knew and he forced me to go. He goes, you need to get back on track and back. So he sat next to me and he put his hand on my shoulder and it was like it was you know, it was I know, I know we're all big, tough guys, but I'm here if if there's anything, and I'm like, no, no, this will be okay. And you know that you could be as tough as you want, but that that transition to get back into. It's important that you do it if you want to keep doing it, but it's import you do with the right people. And uh, you know, like life is short and could be taken at any time, and as water fowlers, as hunters, as a small game hunters, deer hunters. I've heard stories of guys shooting because they saw a bush move, like Jesus Christ. Is that dear worth having that on your conscience forever? You know, Well, there's certain types of these accidents that we focus on, whether it's just because of frequency or you know, you talk about places like Wisconsin, in Michigan, there's always a handful of people that that die in hunting accidents. You know, in the opening day a rifle season like this is a it happens. I don't have numbers in my head. I don't have a list of statistics here, but it happens. We hear about it, we know it, especially here at this company. We we try to address it when we can. Um but this, you know, when you told me about this, I have always said of folks around me, I'm always more worried about safety in a duct blind. I don't think duck blind was at the top, but I think in an upland situation was always my top worry. When you're walking around and birds can flush any direction and people might not know you're there, even if you're wearing orange, even if you're communicating. When you're walking in aligned with someone and there's so much unknown, you really have to trust that person beside you, um, you know, to be as as sound as they can. Um. It's waterfowl season in many many places here, Like I said, we were just out, you know, hunting geese and doing things and this when you told me this, it just made me think that my life, my son's life, these things I could not imagine being on either end of this obviously, um, and even your end of it. What it would make you think about what, you know, what's worth and and strangely enough, as you as you mentioned there, man, like in a time of COVID, it kind of makes you think about because we're all thinking about death a little more than we used to. There's a ticker on the news that says how many people are dying of a thing, you know, um, And so we're all kind of thinking about our immortality a little bit. Then a little more than normal when something like this happens. I'm sure that that's unavoidable, you know, has to be. And it's just what do you do next? You know, how can you prevent this from happening again and be an agent of change to make sure maybe you do save someone's life just by giving a speech and being really serious about it next time. Maybe maybe someone's life to save. Maybe not, but um, you certainly, you certainly have a chance. Well I agree with you. UM, I believe you know, when it's your time, it's your time. That's why that's about to tell my wife so she should leave me alone when I wanted to go back out. Um, this is you know, I could leave the house today and get it by a car and it's your timement's your time. But having said that, we need to put a lot more emphasis on on being safe. Usually in those a frames, it's usually way safer than when when we when we hunt in coffins, um, layoff lines and you know, I mean, look, it happened. I hope to god it never happens to anybody ever again, will it? Probably? Unfortunately? Um, But you know, if you you got to try and put as as as as much on your side as possible by by making people aware. You take your safety when you're standing up, you know, and make sure your footing is sure. If you've never shot a gun with a three and a half inch magnum before and don't know what kind of recoil you're gonna get that I've seen it put guys back on their on their asses after they shoot, you know. Um, all of these factors help. Is it foolproof? No, it's not. It'll you know, it'll never be. But I know that for myself and for a lot of the guys around me. Um, I'm taking this very very tragic event and and I'm gonna turn it as positive as I can, especially when I'm I'm with clients, and you know, believe me, I'd rather to be angry with me for yelling at him for clicking their safety off, then learn forbid shooting the guy or you know what I mean, or hurting or I'd much rather they be angry with me and then have to live with that. You know. Yeah, there's nothing worth that too. And when you think, when I think over my waterfowl hunting experience, I've been in pitlines on the edge of marshes that in the in the in January or December, where everything's frozen. The metal rails are frozen. You have waiters on that you just jumped in the water to go pull some some decoys. They get slippery. You have to lean your gun up against a metal rack, and if it doesn't have something, uh something that holds your gun, it can slide where the other. You know, trigger control is essential. I've shot I've been in uh you know, roving boat blinds, hunting sea ducks, in in on the edge of the Potomac River. Um. I've been in layout blinds in the middle of the channel in Maine where I'm floating there by myself. Uh So I start to like replay all of those scenarios, and each of them has their its own, um, cautionary tale in terms of what might happen if you don't understand trigger control and you don't understand when that safety has to be on, and even beyond that, you're putting yourself into in a relatively dangerous situation. Um. And it's just good to recognize that. I think if people can hear your story and just recognize, yes, we don't want to think about the danger in these situations. We want to have a good time, but man, like some level of awareness, you know, some intense level of awareness of what is actually happening there, even though it's fun and exciting and intense, is so important. It's it's you know. And never let that social pressure of being, like you said, yelling at your clients for being the dickhead and the blind. Never let that social pressure stop you from um speaking up or or acting the way that you feel as the safest. Look. There's there's a guide the guides with the guides here in Quebec. His name is Dmitri, and he huntsled with me a lot all the time. And when he used to see me and Steve with our our life jackets on in the morning, and I used to tell him, Dmitri, you should wear a life jacket. And they finally, after all this last season, he started wearing his life jacket even when we when we get off the big boat and go onto the little boat. And one morning this year he looked at me and he was like, you know what, bro, because I'm so glad I listened to you. I go why he goes, because I zigged when I should have zagged with the boat the other day, and the boat flipped over, and it was a part of the march that was a little too deep, and that life jacket just kept me afloat enough to to to to wait those ten feet to get to where I could have got out. He goes, all I thought of was you. I'm like, wow, I don't know, bro, you got You're on a boat. I mean, I swim very well, but not with not with waiters and twenty pounds of almo in my pockets, and I don't swim. I don't know anybody who could swim well in that situation, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, there's so much, so you just like you can review all that in your mind. But I appreciate you sharing it. I understand that. You know, I don't want to make light of anything that happened there. We want to just kind of tell the story, let people learn from it. Um. Like you said, accidents happen and to people's lives, and at some level, your life is to be changed for a long time. And uh, it's just that's unfortunate, but it's you know, I appreciate you sharing because I do think people can learn something from it and as we talked about it in the very beginning. I'm teaching a young boy to understand the outdoors, and um, you know, stories like this are key to helping him and me understand that process, um, you know, and when to have heightened sense and when to relax. And man, that's a tough that's a tough equation. But this, this is helpful. Yeah, for sure. If I could tell people or anybody like you know guides, I mean, all of us we have that that attitude like uh, take off of the boat in the middle of the night, no lights on and don't worry and we're good. It takes a little thing, buddy, to bring your to bring reality back into perspective. And yeah, you know, not, like I said, I'm not perfect, far from it. I'm sure I've done things that if I if I really sit down and analyze it, or like maybe that was if he shouldn't have I shouldn't have took that shot, or I shouldn't have spun around in the blind and shot him back, or you know what I mean. But we've got to try and control the controllable to some degree. And I think, um like footing or how you control your gun or hold your gun. That's controllable stuff. You know, when you load your gun is a big one too. You know, then you keep your action open. You know, when it's closed, whether it's in battery or not. Like understanding those little little moments and in hunting can be can be a life or death thing at the end of the day. So the pressure should be on us to do it right and to understand that we need to hold others to account at some level. Right, it's hard to be. Like you said, the social pressure is real. You don't want to be the dude, you know, telling your friends to quit this and quit that. And you know that's a hard thing to do sometimes. And I recognize that. So when it's your friends, when it's your friends, it's the hardest, just the hardest, man, it really is. And that's that's and and you know what that's when something is going to go wrong when it's your friends. Yeah, yeah, so that's that's good man. Well, I appreciate it. I definitely we were talking about the other day. I definitely want to make it up Skatchewan man. I'd love to make it back to quell back and uh then hunt bears either way. Um, where can people find your your guiding and and what do you want to tell them about that part of it? Well, listen, I'm you know, I'm I'm on social media Armando and Ditozi on on Facebook or Safari Dude on Instagram. UM. The outfit I guide for is called Great Great outfit Ter um or Western Trophy. They both linked to each other. Benny, you know you're for sure coming up this year. As soon as they opened those borders, we've we It's been five years that we haven't hunted together, and we're do you We're we're do. We're do for a good heart to heart. The last one we had was in Vegas on those awesome chairs when you worked at Yet. Do you remember those chairs were just like I just you know you go through like traiteous season and that that those chairs could save a man's life. Yeah, Rosa really wanted those chairs. She really wanted them. I don't get as many free chairs as I used to. Yeah, man, you know, hopefully we can I record all my heart to hearts now, hopefully you can get get together in camp and man, I would love to see your family again and spend some time up there. Man. I, like I said, I'm grateful that you came on and it's been too long, and um man, best your family until to those involved in that tragedy. Tragedy, I wish you weren't here to talk about that, um and that wasn't kind of the ending. But just anybody out there, if you want to, you'll go with a wonderful person who values the outdoors the way that I do. And you all do this. This guy right here we're talking to is is one of the tops in the in the outdoors or just in the in Canada, but it doesn't matter where. Uh. He can speak French to you, he can quote step brothers to you. He can do anything you need. Armando, All right, Armando man, we'll talk to you soon. I really really thank you for coming on and telling stories. Bro, this was awesome, you know. Uh. For for those that want to know more about Benny and before he had hair on his chest, you can look me up. I'll be glad to share some stories. Uh. No, seriously, but thank you. That's a danger this proposition. I'm so happy for you and and how far you've come in this life. Uh, and I'm grateful to have been a part of it, and I look forward to many more adventures together. Buddy. Hopefully I get drawn to come to the Montana and kill an elk this year with you. But you're for sure coming to Quebec, so you've at either Quebec or likely Saskatchewan. We'll have some fun there. I want you to meet clothed and we'll kill birds and go catch some fish and we'll have a good time. Uh. And until then, God bless you, buddy, get my best to the wife and the kids, and we'll talk again soon. Yeah, right back at your man to see you later. That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to Armando into Tozie for sharing himself a little bit and also his story his tragedy from the duck Blind. Like as I said before we heard it, Um, it was uncomfortable, it was, but it was important. Um. And I'm sad for the family of the man who died, and I'm sad for everyone involved, but we can all learn from it. So let's just do that. And Um, over the next couple of weeks, we're gonna be really putting some nails in the Phil's first hunt. We're gonna like figure out exactly what it's gonna be we're gonna set some dates. We're gonna stick to it. Phil, We're not gonna let We're not gonna let all the pressures in our life of family and job get in the way of your first hunting adventures. So, um you ready? I am ready see that? All right? Well, I expect it's the next week on the show. I'll expect to be playing some sort of voicemail from Eric Hall encouraging this and given us ideas. We're gonna need you. Eric, call anybody else in the cult that we al kay Cock, anybody listening really, um, Mike Peterson, all of our beloved, beloved THHC members please help us out here. Um. Well, before he gets to the end of the show, I um, I have a new favorite song, Phil. You've heard it? I have, yeah. Christopher Peters wrote in UM that he's a long time listener, first time writer. I just wanted to share with you this song as I thought you may enjoy the subject matter. The song is called White Claw, Wasted and des by one of my favorite artists named Kayla Ray the song He linked it below. He also said, for for Phil, I didn't start hunting until I was an adult. I was twenty one, nine years ago. I think you're going to enjoy it, and I can't wait to hear about your first hunt. Thanks for a consistently great show, Chris Peters, Thanks Chris, uh white Claw Wasted. I listened to it. Phil, you listen to it. I got it. I have an idea I don't. I'm sure Kayla Ray does not listened to this show. I am sure of it. I'm surprised that anyone does. But Kaylea, if you're listening, and I'm gonna send you all kinds of messages on every platform. Me and Phil very much wants you just sing the new theme song, the one theme song four the Hunting Collector for t HC. We we want you to. We want to write original song and have you sing it. It would be glorious. All you listeners could could get involved in this. I needed to be Kayla Ray, so we we're gonna respect her and wait for her to to jump on board with this idea. But Phil is gonna play for you a little bit of white Claw Wasted on the way out um of this episode. So I guess we'll see you next week for episode one sixty one. Enjoy a little bit of white claw wasted. Because you can't judge a man by the size of his can. Phil you really can't say bye goodbye. He's are going to get white clone wasted. It's a hard silch or not boody. He can just taste it. Kate June's are hard on a white clone man by the size of his kate. He knows all the black punk's greatest hits it up the girls when you're working for just the tipsy isn't what he can because he's a white cloone man. He don't overcompensate with no told boy that wouldn't be very fair, and all boys holding hands with his cane. He's a white cloone man and he's gonna get white cloon wasted. It's a hard selt or not, but he can just taste it. He can't judge the herd on a white clow man by the size of his cane. The maid lies around his as judge approve of better clothes gone by, but he'll do it again. He's a white clone man and it's gonna get white clone waist. It's hard self or not, but he can just taste it. Don't judge your hard on a white clone man by the size of his cane. Say you can't judge the herd on a white clone man by the size of his cave.

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