00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number sixteen of The Hunting Collective. I've been O'Brien today we are joined by Adam Jankie. I wonder if it's Yankee J and K. You never know how guys pronounced their last name. Really anyway, Adam is a badass. He's the editor of The Journal and Mountain Hunting and he is also the host of the Beyond to Kill podcast on that platform, and he's doing a lot of different things in the media world today. Adam is a relative newcomer to the hunting space in terms of media and quit his his nine to five to jump into this world, and and his brand and what he represents has done great job in a short period of time and represented hunting, represented mountain hunting, and get people excited about the brand that they've created. So moreover, Adam is our resident Canadian, as we'll call him. He's from British Columbia, and he's got a lot to say about the Grizzly Bear Band and a lot to say about hunting politics up north, and really just is a great guy to talk to. He's direct, he's frank who really understands how to work through a conversation and keep it on pointing, on tone, and I really appreciate talking to him, and I like the guy. I think he's got a refreshing take on everything and everything seems measured appropriately so and he has a lot of awesome stuff to say. So that's the episode number sixteen of The Hunting Collective Coming at You with Adam Jenking. All right, Adam, how's it going, man, I'm great, Ben. I really appreciate you having me on. No problem, no problem, it's a pleasure to um. I'm trying to think through if you're the first Canadian ever to join the Hunting Collective, I'm not. I'm trying to think well, not Shane Mahoney beat you. Yeah he did. Although if I if I only play second fiddle of Shane Mahoney in and you know, over the course of my life, I'm I think I'm doing all right. Yeah, if you're chasing Shane Mahoney and you and you're coming in second, you're doing all right. You're gonna be You gotta get a new accent, maybe start dressing a little different, but you'll be fine. Yeah, I'll think that silver medal any day. And frankly, if if I if I at his um at his age, and I don't mean that in a disrespect respectful manner, but if I'm sporting the hair and beard that he is by and by that point in my life, I'm I'm definitely in good company. Oh flowing a flowing main silver main from our boys. Shane respect him a lot too. And and UM, it's a good starting point to start with with Shane and what he does because UM conservation is something that's been on my mind a lot lately, just just because I was going back through and listen it's the prior podcast and trying just to glean what I had learned from from conservation and what I learned from the people we've interviewed. And UM, I I find that the British Columbia Grizzly Bear hunting band came up very frequently as as kind of the north star of what what we don't want to occur in the US and elsewhere when it comes to UM hunting bands or or hunting bands just based on what we'd call trophy hunting. So do you have you know, being uh, our resident Canadian, you have opinions and experience in that field. I know that you do. Yeah, man, if you know it's it's it's finally become one of those things that UM, I'm probably a little sick of talking about. And and some of the background on that bend is as much as I hate to put it this way, UM, I wrote a piece UM on our on the Drill Amountain Hunting platform, our site or digital magazine to depending on how you want to reference it, oh, probably three years ago, UM outlining the fact that we were, um, we were at significant risk UM as it related to the Grizzly grizzly bear hunt and losing the grizzly bear hunt because of UM. The way that hunt is UM, well, I don't even know how to put it. But the way it's it's it's message to in particular the non hunting public. I mean, I think you and I would probably agree that we'll probably never get um, you know, the anti hunters to see eye to eye with us. And that's not you know, meant to sound disrespect disrespectful over the anti hunting community, but you know, they have their beliefs and we have ours, UM. But that that huge swath under the bell curve of the non hunting public is what we're what we're kind of fighting for right and and those that were uh and still are very much opposed to the grizzly bear hunt. Um uh, we're we're mounting a very concerted and sophisticated effort to steer public opinion in a way that um, at least in part um led to this decision of of an outright ban on all grizzy bear hunting in BC. Yeah. Now, and that's I mean, it just becomes the first and most not first, but the most prominent example um of legislation changing based on public opinion in this way, and then, as you said, a a organized effort to push that legislation um and change those things based on you know, the term trophy hunting and and you know, just the particular motivation of hunting that one species in that in that singular place. So, um, it just seems to me from Vancouver over to Quesnel and up into the further reaches of British Columbia that that there just is uh, one set of opinions in the urban and suburban areas and another set of the opinions in the rural areas, and that that really does compared nicely to a lot of the conversation we're having in the States, and it doesn't compare nicely, but it is parallel. So is that is that something that you've you obviously identified early on and you continue to see as a problem going forward for British Columbia. Yeah. And I would like to clarify when I say, you know, I wrote about this, you know whatever, it was too three years ago. I don't want to you know, try to sound like some sort of a sage. It was just um. At the time, I was living in Vancouver and I was interacting with a lot of people from all walks of life and um, and you know, if I've hunted for forever, um, and so you know, these sort of things would come up and I would see, you know, how it was covered in in in the in the main like newspapers, traditional media wise, how it even got covered on you know, local or regional TV news. Um. And so I mean there are many, many, many people in BC who have been involved in this debate and and you know, let's call it fight for decades, right, and this has been a hot topic in BC for a very very long time. I think say, um, Um, Shane, excuse me, um even alluded to the fact that it was you know, not a new discussion. It just came to a head, UM, you know, just late last year. And there's no question that UM the decision that was made. And there's there's a couple of things that should be clarified there right because I know, UM a lot of people when I when I when it happened, I heard a lot of other podcasters or or people speak to speak to this issue and say that, UM, you know, nent of BC, UM of the populace of BC was it was against this so called trophy on. This gisby trophy on. And if you actually dig into some of the polls and some of the um UM the some of the methods that were used to to seek out public opinion and professional and UM you know, to to an extent impartial opinion, the numbers don't really add up. So so what did happen was a there was a a two pronged UM A two pronged effort between the variety of NGOs UM that our out notte UM anti hunting organizations in particular when it comes to to large carnivores um and then the new UM party that came into government to UM to just simply push this decision through the bulk of their UM support base will be undoubtedly in urban environments in particular Vancouver and Victoria. UM, and they'll have supporters you know, across the province. But if you go outside of the what's called the Lower Mainland, which is effectively the Greater Vancouver area or Victoria, you are going to get very very different opinions from people on UM. You know, the viability, sustainability and and support of of the Grizzly hunt. I mean, at the end of the day, Ben UM, you know, the hunting community here in BC was, without question, cap with your pants down right. We had no UM organizing body too to you know, push back against some of these these very sophisticated pr and social media campaigns. UM. There was an immense amount of infighting because of the whole resident versus nonresident issue that is that is ever present in BC. And and just to add clarity to that, there's a lot of people that live and hunting BC that could care less how a legislative change impacts you know, a as they would call them, foreign trophy hunter without you know, realizing that it's a you know, these sort of things impact all of us. And so I mean we were we were disorganized, we were unsophisticated, and how we dealt with this issue UM and UM and the the decision came down right. And what's interesting as well about the Grizzly bear band is, you know, this is one of the most UM regulated and studied hunts on the planet, without a shadow of a doubt, UM. And so we had, you know, no shortage of statistics and data to support the fact that it was absolutely positively sustainable. UM. There was no negative impact on the population. If anything. Many would argue that the population had improved UM over the course of UM of hunting being allowed, because it had been banned previously, going years back, and don't remember exactly what year, UM. But we had no shortage of data and this you know, I've talked about this before, right as um As hunters were were quick to speak a certain language. Let's let's loosely call that the conservation language, which is factual, and it's good stuff and it's great, you know, it's great information and it's important information. But it just didn't fall on ears that we're listening. Yeah, I mean I think you I think both sides, particularly in this side, that the hunting side, which is on the defensive, is unable to see the nuance in the opposition. And there is this, there is this easy and and and you and I have talked about this, this lazy falling back on conservation and that term and falling back on um everything that goes with that. And I think when an argument like this comes up and the opposition is organized and looking for some nuanced thinking, that doesn't just pair it out the party lines, the hunting party lines like, hey, conservation, is this carrying capacity? Population control? Even the specifics of the nature of grizzly bears and and how they interact with other bears and how they interact with humans and why population control is important. I think all those things, while important ideas, aren't necessarily new ideas. Uh. And I think when you face a new and more organized opposition, which you would probably agree that this is and UH wasn't, is that you have to then come up with better ways to get your points across, and more nuanced ways, in this case get your point across that I think speak a little bit more to the to your audience, which in this case is Vancouver and Victorian and the Lower Mainland, as you mentioned, so right, UM, and I guess I don't want to belabor this obviously because everybody kind of knows the situation. But is there something in the future now that you know the hunting community and BC has been called other pants down, something in the future that you see as a solution or something that has been enacted or ideated at this point that you you think might prevent this in the future or be able to reverse decision like this. Well, I mean there there are many to believe that um, this this new government that came into power, this new party, I should say, they came into power. UM won't UM won't get reelected, so you know whatever, it will be three and a half years. Now, Let's say down the road that if the UM the government that was in power prior to this, this this new party and and this decision amongst many others that are a little bit um, if you let's say the one UM the previous from our party comes into power, that it will get reversed. Now, I've also spoken with a ton of people that say, you know, hold on, it's um. It's it's all well and good to think that, and to think that we'll get support from from that party. But it's a pretty hard PR pill to swallow, to say, hey, you know, there was all this stuff about these beautiful animals that you know, everyone was supposedly against lopping the heads off of. Well we're gonna let people lop heads off them again, right, And I'm putting those in in very you know, extreme terms, but those are the sort of that's the sort of stuff that was put out there, right and in these in these PR campaigns from the NGOs, the anti hunt NGOs was they used a lot of very graphic, very false and in most cases in fact, but some very graphic and um uh, let's say emotional um type of examples of what it meant to be a grizzly bear or so called trophy hunter. Um So it's a you know, who knows, right, I mean that that's a that's a tough hill to climb if you're a new party coming into power and are supposed to sport the hunting and fishing community and particular the hunting community and turn this decision around. Um So, I don't know, I don't know where that will where that will land as far as the the know, the specific hunting community getting more organized, things are being put into action. But um, this has absolutely exposed um just how um factional the hunting community is in BC. UM. As I, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago. You have the resident hunters, you have the guide outfitters. You have people that profess to be meat hunters. You have people that that you know loved grizzly bear hunt. You have people that are resident hunters that are also guide outfitters, UM. And you have some of the organizing bodies that are involved here that should have you know, kind of had our backs, that are that are playing politics in you know, behind closed doors. So I I really don't know. I mean that was one of the first things I did after the initial decision, which is actually just a ban on keeping um hide head and claws. You can still hunt grizzy bears, you just had to take the meat to leave everything else behind. So even when that went down, one of the first things I did was I started calling people that I know we're involved in certain organizations and said, you know, what's what's the plan here, like what's going on? And everyone just sort of, you know, um figurative sense just looked around the room to see who else had the answer right, and and and that was then and things that have been put into motion. Um, but it won't happen, happen quickly, so um so time will time will tell. Yeah, that's interesting to me, and there's a bunch of things wrapped up in that to me that are you know, important overall. But it seems in general that we've always had this. When you say anti hunting it it strikes me as one side, the anti hunting side, is always argue on emotion, right and and general sensationalism. Then you have the hunting side in this case, or you know, really sometimes in America, the pro inside who's always trying to argue pragmatism and not always factual information, but at least the air of factual information. And those two sides continue to go head to head, and that that that emotional side can't reason with pragmatism and facts and common sense, and the pragmatism side can't see the emotional connection to the animal. And Steve Ronella puts it very very bluntly, that an animal rights activist is good at taking care of one animal, and that the hunter is good at taking care of the entire population, and so I've spoken to a lot of people. I don't know. This is one I'd love to get your opinion on. I spoken to a lot of people about how do we fix that chasm, because it is a large chasm between somebody who cares emotionally about that single being UM or somebody who cares about Grizzly bears as a population and in more of a figurative sense. Do you have any any thoughts on that Having gone through this issue and having being you know, kind of not in the middle, but a large part of an issue like this where those two ideas are at the four Yeah, I mean, so there's UM. I think there's there's two at least potential solutions here. One that UM I yea. In the discussions I was having after both you know, let's call them UM, segments of the whole Grizzly fiasco occurred UM that UM. Just a lot of us came to agree on right. A lot of people that were involved either in some of the politics or people they're involved with organizations that are trying to you know, sort of get the shift, get the ship excuse me, on on on course. UM. And and so there's there's that solution, and there's one that's come to me a little bit more recently. And so they are they're effectively external and internal UM solutions. I think on the external side, you know, we as hunters, as as you and I have said, UM, are very quick to you know, pull out, pull the you know, sort of conservation gun out of the holster, right. UM, use all the data and the science that we either find for ourselves or get spoon fed by all the organizations out there that that are part of the hunting community and are doing great work. I don't want to sound like I'm diminishing the work some of these legacy or organizations have done. UM. But we you know, that was kind of the only AMMO we had, right And and then when we get an emotional UM push back from in particularly anti hunters, and then then that trickles into the non hunting public, UM, we were very quick to say, well, they're just being irrational and emotional, right And and at the end of the day, UM, most hunters love to hunt, and they do so for more emotional reasons than they do rational reasons. And if you're telling other people otherwise, you're telling yourself otherwise. I would challenge that, um, um, that notion. Right. It's you know, I hunt because I love to hunt and everything that comes with it. And are there good reasons to do it? Yes? Are there's scientific reasons to do it? Yes? Are their management reasons to do it? Yes? Are there familial reasons to do it? I eat, put you know, clean protein in my freezer on my table. Sure. Um, But I just love to hunt, I really do. And and so we weren't acknowledging our own emotional connection to these issues and and then using that, um, you know, those emotions to communicate and connect with people on a real personal level. Right. We can't sit here and say we need to be rational when you know, it's not human nature to be rational all the time, if not most of the time. Right. And so I do think in terms of how we communicate with in particularly the non hunting public, Um, we just need to recognize that, you know, how we were communicating with them, how we were and are to a certain extent, um is falling on deaf years, you know, Shane says himself, and I'll probably butcher it. But if we you know, speak speak, what is it if if for too long we speak only to ourselves, will will be the only ones left listening, right and and I think that's that's a big part of what happened here. So externally, I think we need to, um, you know, engage with the non hunting public. And I want to be clear when I say that that that doesn't mean we need to be conciliatory or you know, walk around with our hands out saying please, sir, can I have some more? We need to you know, stand stand up for what we believe in, but make real connections with people, whether that's over food or in um, you know, town hall settings or dinner parties or whatever the case may be. Like, just engage with people, um, and and share some of the emotional reasons you do it, right, um, and don't just spew out um. But what I'm sure comes across as sort of um, defensive justifications for for what we do. UM. So that would be one and then two is on the internal side of things. And this is linked to that that thing I sent you earlier today is you know, if we continue to segregate our own community by by you know, labels like I hunt for meat. Well, sorry, let me back that up. If we continue to segregate our community based on labels UM that we um you know, identify with in terms of our reasons for hunting. I hunt for meat, I hunt for trophy, hunt for it inches, I hunt for maturity, I hunt for management, hunt for conservation. I think we are are going to find ourselves in a bad spot because we are doing the work of the anti hunters by creating those divisions within our own community. I'm a bow hunter, therefore I must not like the long range people. UM, A trad bow hunter. Therefore, I think anyone that takes a sixty yard shot with a compound is um, you know, is the Antichrist, right, and so you know those sort of things. I think we need to sort out our own, our own house in order as much as we need to think as as hard about how to communicate with the non hunting public. Yeah. No, I can agree with that wholeheartedly. And I think it's just it's it's we're unlucky in this situation. Like we not unlucky, but we have fallen into a passion something we care a lot about that is complex and is regional, and and it it doesn't always look the same. Hunting doesn't look the same on the East Coast as it does in the East coast of the States, as it does in northern British Columbia. It just doesn't look and feel the same. It isn't it isn't. Uh, the picture isn't painted with the same strokes. And so we have all these different perspectives that we're trying to apply to one ethic, which which is seems the right way and in my mind it kind of is the right things do. But unfortunately we we've had this very complex and in and ever changing idea of what hunting is in the modern times. Um, so we're stuck arguing those points, arguing the finer points of of what it is instead of really trying to, like you, like you said, connect with people that don't do it, Like, how do I connect with you? What is the one thing that we share in common, which is which is most often caring about the animal and valuing the animal's life, which is is usually the one commonality in this in this situation, and trying to bridge a gap based on that, as opposed to trying to to to make definitions out of something that seemingly, you know, it may not be able to be defined. Um. Just because it is so different and so nuanced and and and changing all the time. Um and so yeah, we're stuck with this complex message. This is very complex argument we have amongst ourselves even and the other side is is bringing forth something that isn't that complex. It's basically, we love animals, and all animals are sentient beings, and all animals deserve life. You don't have the option to take it from them and then brag about it, um for for for anything. And so I think at the end of the day, we just need to first first identify the complexity and and what we're trying to trying to do in the modern world, and the simplicity of of the counter argument. And that's a lot of times, um how that kind of argument has strength because it's sensational and it's simple, it's easy for people to understand. Um And And so I think our messaging just needs to be consistent and and we need to find a way to trump at that messaging and get it out as as much as we can. So I maybe that's a depressing kind of opinion to have on the damn thing, but it but it's true. I mean, we just have we have put by being hunters in the modern society, we kind of put ourselves behind the eight ball because it's a complex thing in a world that doesn't really enjoy complexity. They want everything to be pretty simple. So I think BC is just one of those places that was kind of the front lines of this because of that grizzly bear being a charismatic megafauna that we love to uh personify and we love to put on a pedestal for some for some reason. But enough of that, enough of that business. We can talk about that all day. Um, you're in the media world. You're the editor the journal Mountain Hunting, which to me is an interesting take on print publications. Um, and I at being a former print editor myself. I really enjoy the quality of the paper and the paper and the white space and all the real geeky editor type things that I I notice when I look at the book. But I also really enjoy and I think why it's your voice is important is because the way the book has written and presented is very much with an eye towards how hunters are seen and how how you can shape that image and and bring that image into a better light. So that's I always appreciate those efforts, and I appreciate that book. But but what's it like being an editor at work in every single day to put together a product that's uh, has those goals and it can be judged for its creativity. Oh yeah, I mean I mean by no means what I ever want to sound, um, well like like I've got a hard go here. But I mean I I'm I'm working in the hunting business, which you know for a lot of people, UM that that's a dream, right, and so you know, for the most part, it's a ton of fun. I mean, there's there's a lot of um nuances as as you pointed out to this world and the you know, our our whole mantra from from inception. So the journal Mountain Hunting UM started as a as a digital magazine, as we like to think of it. I mean, it was a website of course, but structured very much as a digital magazine. What you were just referencing is our print edition, which we released our first last year. We have a new one coming out very soon, if not by the time this goes to air. And you know, in both those channels let's call them, it was um we were always sort of focused on trying to yeah, like like you said, you know, but present an image of of hunting or frankly uncover um one of the hidden images of hunting that just wasn't necessarily part of um a common part of the media mix. UM, so that people could see that, you know, there is more to hunting than what they might see on a on a certain TV show, right, or on a YouTube video or anything along those lines, right. And so we always um wanted to go deep, right. So I mean, geez, one of the stories in that pre addition you've seen was nine thousand words, right, And for some people maybe that makes their eyes glaze over, but that's what the story took to tell, right. And so we wanted to um not get all flowery and philosophic on on all subjects, but really create a form um where we can discuss the complexity, right, Like you said, I mean complexity is is that that the root of this this whole thing we call hunting, and it's also at the root of some of the problems we're facing in in in the media world. UM. And so that that was a big part of what I wanted to do and when I started it. UM four years ago, there wasn't a lot of content out there that that kind of um suited my needs. Right, there wasn't the kind of stuff I wanted to consume. Um. And that's not to say there wasn't a lot of good stuff out there is, just I had to piece it together from you know, all sorts of different publications or forums or brand blogs or whatever the case may be. Right, that's changed obviously, there's a lot of great stuff out there nowadays. And you know, the the game has been elevated in terms of photography or film or or the print game. But um, it's a it's a it's a very fun job. It's a very interesting job. You know, I was in I was in healthcare. Before I made the the leap to this this field, I knew nothing about media, um and UM. The only connection I had to hunting was that I love to do it and grew up doing it. UM. And so you know, every day is kind of figuring it out as as we go, UM and UM and making sure that you know, when where possible, and if possible, everything we put out there is is you know, at least has the potential to make a person look at it and go oh this is about hunting. That's interesting. I've never seen it presented this way, right, or I rarely see it presented it presented this way. Yeah, No, that's that's that's a great point. And I mean, coming from traditional people have to just forgive me being a print journalist in my in my past lives. They're just gonna have to listen to some of the print journal journalistic industry insider talk that I'm about to have. So just deal with it. Uh. But you know the you know, the traditional books Outdoor Life, Field and Stream, Peterson Signing, North American, White Tail. We can go down and down that list of traditional print titles that have been around a long time in the hunting industry and contributed a ton to our culture and contributed a ton of knowledge to the hunting public out there. Um, they've come come upon hard times. The there's less pages, there's more advertising. Um, there's less honesty in these publications. I mean I was an editor of one of them. I can tell you that it is. Um it's hard to both sell ads and have honest editorial at the same time. Um, when those lines get blurred, it's just a really tough tough thing. And I think as the digital world pushes a more democratic exchange of information, it's tough UM for these print titles who are really really it's a cheap subscription price and they're really counting on advertising to pay the pay the bills. And that means inherently that the advertiser has a lot of influence on what's going on UM, and a lot of those advertisers certainly know that and use it as a benefit. Is there a way you feel like the journal can can buck some of those trends? And it's just overall, are you are you hopeful for for the for the medium and the messaging and all that kind of stuff, And that's a that's probably deep question, but yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean I think it's possible to buck the trend UM. But I mean, you know, we we've put out one print edition and you know, when we go live with this next one, which has been a long time coming. For anyone that is a subscriber UM or or as a customer, I should say, UM that you were were going to a quarterly schedule UM as of this year. We we started with a plan to be biennual, but we're gonna go quarterly Um. So I say that only because you know, I'm not sitting here with twenty years of experience in the print game, or one of them five years of experience in the print game. Right that said, Um, you know, in our initial print edition we had twenty pages of ad of ads and what would amount to over a hundred and fifty pages of content. Um. And so I think that the simplest and blunt way to put it is somebody has to pay, right. Um. So that's either going to be the advertisers like you're alluding to with with the traditional sort of print model, or it's the reader, right Um. And and that was the path we took. We have minimal ads, but we charge for one issue about what it costs for a subscription to most of those legacy magat magazines. Right. And and so if people want um honest editorial, UM, in depth content, UM, unique content, right, stuff they haven't seen before and can't find for free somewhere else, um, which is a whole other issue. Um, then I think people just need to to get to the get to the point where they're willing to pay for it. Right. Um. You know we're we're sitting on a free podcast, right now for at least free for people to listen to, not free to produce. You and I both know that, um. And and so with the digital side being obviously so important today in in in the media game, UM, people do expect a lot of things for free. And I get that. You know, there's certain things I expect for free. But UM, you know I still spend ten to thirty dollars on a book if I if I deem it worthwhile, right and um, and so I think with with the print game, I don't think print is dead. Um. I think just the model needs to be adjusted. And one of the more common things we here ben that's really interesting. And then I mean this is you know quite a number of um of you know responses from customers or you know, emails, etcetera from customers is um, the people welcome a break from the digital world. Right if they work at a desk, Um, they're at a computer all day, They're on their phone more than they should be. We all are, right. And so when you get something that's of quality in your hands, that is is visually enticing and has quality content and honest editorial. Um. You know a lot of people have emailed us saying like it's just so nice to put all that stuff down, turn off the monitor and actually sit down and read something again. Um. And of course it has to have quality to to support that. But I do think people still like print. Um. And I don't know if you ever heard the term digital fatigue, but I think that's a real thing. Um. And I think we just we in the media business just need to tweak our approach to how we how we essentially package print content. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I've said that a lot about even hunting hate always go back to like the overall the broad concept of hunting. But you know, urbanization has been one of the things that has pushed hunting number is down, puts hunting participation down. And my estimation here lately, you see a lot of people that are bucking that urbanization trend and looking for places to looking for ways to get out of those urban environments and go experience something a little bit different. And if you put hunting in there and their path, they'll accept it every time, as long as you put it in their path with the right framing. Um. Much same with much the same with this with print, print journalism, and uh, the print publications like yours. If you put it in the path of a uh, a media hound, someone who loves to read, and they're just tired of poking around Twitter and getting misdirected and and having a lot of opinions thrown at them, it's nice to turn that off and just read it. You know, like I said, nine thousand world article is is ridiculously long. I used to you know, they used to say eight hundred words is about everybody's attention span. And you and I have had this conversation before. I said their attention span. Um. While I can there that to be important, I really just want to get the message out the best way that I can. And if it's nine thousand words instead of eight hundred, then that's what I'm gonna do. And I'll trust that people appreciate that, and if I guess, we'll go out of business if they don't. Um, Because you really got to be honest to the content. And I feel like that's what the journal Amount of Hunting really does and that's why I'm reading it that you get that this is just an honest accounting of of these stories and the places and the people at which I think is is how how films you know, how you know a company I work for, YETI how their films have become popular because they focus on story first and they're not um driven by anything else but that and that for in a in a in a world where everybody is being pandered too, it's a straight up honest account or honest story that is important to the overall culture. Seems like maybe it's a little bit of an outlier, which is sad to say, but um, I hope, I hope people are increasingly willing to pay the premium for a publication like yours, but also willing to pay premiums for podcasts as well. Um, because as a podcaster, you have a podcast yourself beyond the kill. UM. I think we probably both feel pressure to collect advertisers to make a profit. But every time you kind of inch to the next advertiser and you get to give a little bit of yourself with each one of them, whether you like it or not. Um, And that's a tough position to be in. So I would hope that just is a pure honest um storyteller and a communicator that you could find that you know, find a balance if you struck any balances. That you found to be beneficial. Oh that's a good question. It's funny. I gotta ask this um earlier today, or at least in a similar sort of question. You know, I think UM we UM. We from the get go UM focused on quality over quantity. So that so that was multifaceted. That was in the stuff we produced, right, the articles we put out there, and then I'm not saying they're all perfect, and I'm certainly not saying they're better than other stuff out there. They're just um, they're they're just they're different right there in depth. I mean, you'll we've we've had online stories that were you know, somebody's submitted to us with awesome photos that were you know, seven thousand, eight thousand words along right that we broke up into two parts. So you know, we always wanted to give the story a chance. I guess they're like like, when you talk about an eight hundred word attention span, will you know not many of the books that are on my bookshelf for eight hundred words, right, So I think if if the materials put together UM in an engaging way, right at the end of the day, do good work, right, you gotta do good work people aren't going to read. I mean that that's a bigger hit on intention span than than the length. Right. UM. But you know, we we stayed really committed and continue to stay really committed to to that side of it. UM, not just putting things out there to generate clicks or UM you know, volume of traffic or stuff like that. Sure that's great, but UM there's ways to as you know, UM, to manipulate that side of the game, UM without there actually being a lot of quality or substance to it. So so there's that side of it. And the second part of it is, UM, we no different than what the print edition and talking about, you know, basically asking our readers to pay. We kept our advertising spots to a minimum. UM. This is online and in print and on the podcast for that matter as well. And UM in charge the premium four we we basically said to an advertiser, UM, you know, we'd love to work with you company x UM assuming there was you know, UM, I hate to use you know, whatever media douche terms like brand synergy, but you know that there was there was alignment right between our brand and their brand. UM, and UM, we would say we'd like to work with you, you will be one of you know, six, or one of twenty or one of four, depending on the channel we're talking about that's on this platform. So because of that you know, very prominent and basically impossible to miss position, we're gonna ask you to pay a lot more than you otherwise would in the volume game. UM. So that ended up being something that that that worked real well for us. That that the outset and continues to work well to a point. UM. And uh, that's not to suggest that there aren't you know, I can't say conflicts, but there aren't people that are skeptical of our relationships with an advertiser. Um. And simply that we're talking about you know, a given brand or product because we're paid to do so. UM. I would honestly say, and I mean this, you know, as sincerely as as I can as I possibly can that because we've we've worked predominantly with a really limited group of as we would call them, sponsors. And that's not me being sponsored, that's you know, sponsors of of our content. UM. We've been fortunate enough to work with brands that are really damn easy to to to, you know, to represent and support, right if they make damn good packs. It's hard to you know not or it's not hard to to say these are damn good packs or if they make good firearms or optics or whatever. Um, it's pretty easy to um, you know, beastly just embed those in in in you know, the platform of the channel, UM and be authentic about it. Yeah, no, I'd agree. And that's that's you know, maybe there's the balance. UM. I say maybe because you're working in a world and we all are, everybody that creates media, working in a world where people are rightfully suspicious of your motivations when you start talking about consumer products. UM. And I ran into this personally being uh on the Joe Rogan podcast, and because I work at Yetti and every time we mentioned Yetti, people just assume that maybe YETI paid for this for paid for me to be on there, or paid Joe to have me on UM And rightfully, so they should should think in those terms. I mean that that is Uh, there's a lot of that going on. Uh. There's a lot of submersive advertising, and there's a lot of you know, Batman jumps out of the Batmobile and gets into a BMW like he didn't need to get in that BMW's got a damn batmobile. Um, and so there there's just that there's those things that that it almost feels falsely submersive, like, oh, we trick them to drive, you know, Batman drives BMW. Everybody else should too. So um. You know, as a consumer, I don't like to be duped. I don't like to be uh. I don't like to need a product based on osmosis. I'd like to really need it and really be informed about it. Especially in the niche media world where you and I live spend most of our time. So it's an interesting time opic because when you're hunting, and especially when you're on the map, when you're on a mountain, things to get dangerous and you need to rely on the products that you're using and they you you put a lot of money in time and these efforts. And if if there's a a journalistic um platform out there, or at least you know, faintly journalistic platform that's telling you you should use something based on being paid to tell you that, that really devalues your time with the goddamn mountain, and um, that equation starts to get really gross. It starts to get uh, starts to feel cheap, and it starts to just devalue all media that isn't you know, social or UM in a digital platform. So I'm glad, really why I want to just bring this up and talk through some of this with this, just because it almost feels like what you're doing fights back against um our better nature to accept a lot of money too, to not lie but misrepresent things. Yeah. Well, I mean that's that's the very gracious of you to say, Ben. I mean, it means a lot coming from you that UM you you see it that way. And you know, if I go back to when we started the journal UM in August, you know, it was it was the proverbial scratching my own itch, right, So like I would go to a hunting form or a website or wherever right to look for information or to read stories or just you know bs, and I'd just be like inundated with you know, good old ad tech, you know, things popping up and flashing and trying to distract me from why I was there. And I just you know, I don't I don't know if we could say intuitively, but I just thought, you know, there's got to be a better way, like I don't click on those things, I don't read those things. They have zero impact on me. How is this performing? Right? Um? And so you know, whether we call we're trying to do as as fighting back or just trying to offer an alternate option, which certainly isn't for everyone. I mean, let's be honest, there's there are brands that that need volume in one volume, right, and that's we're not the place for that. UM. If UM, you want to have a hyper targeted, hyper engaged audience that is UM shrewd and discerning um that maybe we are right um and and and again we've been really lucky in that UM because we only work with a small batch of brands that it's not hard to fill the holes you should as an advertiser and can right kind of check the boxes of the categories that are you know, the companies that need to invest in their marketing and pr UM, we've been lucky and that those are usually best in class or in the top three to five of the class. Right. And so it's really easy to to be honest, um. And and you're right though it is very also very um justifiable for people to be skeptical and they should be and I, in fact, I welcome that. I like that right as if a person wanted to ask myself for anyone that worked here with us about this or a better product or something like that, They're going to get a real answer, right because we I mean, not only are we happy to work with the companies we do, but I guarantee you, as you will have seen in that film I sent you, um, you better damn won't believe we put it to the test. Yeah, exactly right. I mean that's the important part, is that you can stand by that product, whether that ad is in that magazine or not. And I and I would hope and I will do this And sometimes I wish we could do this live or people could call in. But when we post this podcast, I'm going to put up a poll or or fashion something where I can ask people like, are you willing to shuffle through a bunch of advertising to get to the content you want? Or would you rather pay money to see that content free of that advertising, or at least in your case, with more appropriate advertising that that feels natural and is more of a supportive role as opposed to a submersive role. I want to know that from people because I want to know. Um, in my career, there was a big time where pay walls were just not tolerated. Like if you may, if you were digital editor and your your magazine or your newspaper, UH tried to make the audience pay for the content, you would just nobody would do it. But I think that's changing now. I think people are willing to pay for quality content and good in depth reporting and good quality information that isn't touched by any outside sources. So hopefully you know if you're listening to this and you have an opinion right in, But if not, you know, shoot me an email or shoot us a direct message on on Instagram. But if if if not, check check everything out, go back to UH our pages and look for some polls and let us know what you think. Because I think that's that's really up to the folks listening and reading to continue to to drive that conversation and tell us what they want, um, what they need. So UM, that's a great conversation what I could have forever. But you mentioned UH what I believe is one of the more hardcore hunts that I've ever seen, and I've I think that when you return from this hunt, I said something like, Um, the the pain threshold just went up a little bit. I try to find the most suffrage I can on the mountain when I can. You know places I've been, like New Zealand or Nepal, but I feel like you might have have have willingly went into the most painful mountain hunting situation humanly possible. And you're gonna have to tell us all about that because it's a doozy. I think that's the first time I've heard it UM sort of reviewed in that manner Ben Ben and I like it. I like it a lot actually, so UM the film we're talking about here UM, which we released very recently. I'm again I'm not sure when this podcast to lay air, but it was released on my thirty one. So it's been up UM as of today for what five days, six days something like that. UM. And so it it's called Toying the Line and UM. You know you can find that on YouTube where you can get you can get it on our on the Jernal Mountain Hunting website. UM. On our UM we got a watch section that has films and stuff on it. And and so this was a a February just as pass February UM mountain goat hunt in northern BC, north coastal BC, just just shy the Alaska border. And UM six of us went into this this area. UM that we took a boat down the inlet and got dropped off you know, some nameless creek or at least one that I won't name on here, UM and UM and and just went after it. And and the simple you know, sort of premise of the film is, UM, this was a guide's hunt, not a guided hunt. A guide's hunt. So the main character, Nolan Osborne is his name. He, like most guides, UM spends you know, four or five six months a year, depending on how the year plays out, helping other people fill their own tags. But as far as um feeding his passion for mountain hunting, by the time the season wraps up, there's not there's not really a whole lot left. And at least in BC. Yeah, I mean, you could go overseas and you know, plug yourself into some of the really lengthy seasons there for you know, various mountain species. But in BC you're not left with a whole lot when the guiding seasons all wrapped up. And so he decided to UM for better for worse. Go on, um this this very late season, literally the end of February. Um, goat hunt and into some into some pretty nearly terrain, and you know it was you know, minus twenty celsius most of the time. Let me stop you real quick, minus twenty celsius. What's that fair knheight? And you say most of the time. I have no idea. I'm not sure what the fahrenet can conversion. It's cold as ship. Everybody cold is hell, and these guys you're talking about nine days and in sub freezing temperatures. And Nolan, if you watch the film, Nolan's a badass of badasses. But cramp on ice Axes just some um what I would say, general insanity, but the best kind. So continue, I was, I just people just need to understand it's cold as hell here, and cold as hell normally means you're endanger at almost every point of the day because you need to keep your body tempts up, you need to not freeze and die. So let's let's start this. Let's continue the story on that premise. Go at them. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, I mean, it was it was cold a f right like um, but you know, as Canadians. That's not something we're overly concerned with. I mean, like you said, it just it just changes, Um, I say, just it changes everything, right, I mean from your moisture management, so you know your a perrel system to your firearm or and you know if you were carrying a boat would obviously impact that. Um, how you get water. I mean, we couldn't hike for more than five minutes without our water bottles freezing shot and so we couldn't drink. So there's I mean, we've got imagery of me, you know, holding the water bottle up to my mouth analogy and not metal so it didn't get stuck to me. Um, but breathing like you know, the like really aggressive breaths around the rim of the analogen, and just so I had a chance of breaking the frozen seal to to get a gulp of water which was already half frozen after you know a little bit of hiking after I just filled it up, right, So, um, it was Yeah, it was tough, and it was tough for a lot of reasons. The country this was in is is as steep and early as it gets. I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise this is This was a late season mountain goat hunt. Mountain goats are not known for living in um, you know, gentle terrain, and so it was it was a test of absolutely everything that you could test as a hunter, right, your physicality or your mental fortitude, your gear, um and um. And it was just an absolute phenomenal hunt. We had Dustin Rowe was along with us. He actually had planned to come and hunt for himself. Um. This is actually kind of funny with his bow. Um. And the first day I don't know if he caught this in the film or not, Ben, but um, it took us five and a half hours to cover two kilometers and so we got we got in there. We got set up at what we would consider base camp, and woke up the next morning and started glass and found found some some goats and in particular some some billies that we were, you know, willing to put the effort into chase, but they were literally on the summits of these mountains. And Dustin came back in from glass ng looked at his bow hanging on a broken off tree branch and just looked at us and said, yep, that's stay in there. And um and and the hunt shifted into just getting Nolan his goat, which had been the plan for the film all along, and so um it uh it was filled with adventure and comedy and danger and everything you're looking for, right, Like you said, you know when you go out there and you're looking for the ultimate suffrage. Um, we got that in spades. It took everything we had and and and then half again more to to pull this thing off. And um, I don't think any one of us would would treade it for the world, despite there not being a single day where we didn't look at each other and go, what in the are we doing right now? Yeah? And Dustin Rose a tough son of a b man like he that there's nothing about him that that has quit in him. I mean he's done just about everything on a mountain that that a guy could do. Um, and to hear that of him is one good of him, is a part of a hunting party. But but also just tells me, hey, look, this is a this is a rough situation. And um, I think it's universal. You know this. You get in these situations and you're suffering through something, then you you've kind of stacked the odds against yourself on purpose and or just you know, just by circumstance, and it takes a whole crew of people to to to accomplish something. And Um, watching the film, I just was struck by the story. Yeah sure, but I was just struck by the the team work it takes to film, how cameras work when it's that cold, how a team of people have to work together. I mean, you guys were talking about having to hike a little bit and then stop, and and somebody go through it and pick through the ice and hike a little bit and stop, And I mean just the teamwork that it takes, in the bond that you have with the people that go on those types of trips with you. He's amazing you. You know, I've never felt anything like it. Obviously I've never been in the military or anything like that, but I've never felt the bond like that. I mean, you guys all felt that coming off the mountain. I imagine, oh yeah, no, no doubt. I mean to give some context to that. So it's so two quick stories. Um, before I know, we'll we'll need to start wrapping up. But um, you to your point about Dustin, I don't even remember the exact number but he's been um a part of more than one hundred sheep hunts. That doesn't mean he's he's guided all of those himself, but he's been a part of them. UM And on one one ascent or attempted an ascent before we got turned around with our tails between our legs. Um, it took us seven and a half hours to go eleven vertical feet and on that climb, So that that was in part because of the steep, like the grade, the steepness, Um, but also the snow depths. I mean when there were there are points that and you'll see this in the film if you choose to watch it where you know we're in snow that's anywhere from me to nipple deep at times. And so when you when you talk about that teamwork, Ben, we went we had to break trail everywhere we went through this this pretty hefty snowpack. And the guy leading, the guy breaking trail could only go, depending on the grade, you know, twenty two maybe forty five minutes if you were lucky, UM before he would be absolutely destroyed and would have to drop to the back of the stack. And the guy that was second would now break trail. Guy that third is packing down that trail a little bit more, and so on and so forth. So we were running this sort of flying v of alternating guy's break and trail. So it's very very slow going, right. So one, you're right, the team was I think essential. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's people that could do it solo. They have to be the harder, hardest s obs on the planet to do it. I don't even know if two or three guys um could have could have done at least the trip that we did. Um, I really believe that, you know, four to six was the minimum to to be able to even just move around like be mobile. But on this climb, coming back to Dustin, on this climb that took us seven hours to cover, not a whole lot of elevation, We're about halfway up and dust and I are in the middle of the group and where you know, it's one of those you know, probably someone to what you experienced in the poll in certain ways, obviously not the elevation side of it, but you know, the ten fifteen steps and he even and suck wind over top of your hiking pools, right Dustin. Dustin turns to me and we're both dripping sweat and and just working our butt off and we're dripping sweat at minus twenty um, and he goes, it does not get any more bleeping hardcore than this. He wipes the sweat off his brow and keeps hiking right. And so I said, I stood there for a minute, and I thought, yeah, damn it, man, like if Dustin saying that, what the hell did I get myself into? Right? Yeah? And you always come back from it, like if they don't know, not always. There's plenty of examples of people that have unfortunate um things happen and maybe don't come back. But in these cases, like you, you have it doubt into the point where you know it's time to stop, and um, what's cool about the film, but was also you know what's cool about the people in it is that that you're you're you're always moving the goal post back a little bit. You know, you get to the point where I can't do this anymore, and and you stop and you're like, I can do a little bit more, and then you go and you stop, and you go, I can do a little bit more, and then you go, and then eventually you get to your destination and uh, and then I'm sure I've been this way. But I'm sure when you guys got back home and you were you know how your first world problem started to pop up back in your real life. You're like, man, that's nothing. I have summitted. The craziest mountain um, and the craziest weather and and the crazy situation is anybody can imagine. Even if Dustin Ross has it's hardcore, it's hardcore. Um, he's kind of the arbiter of hardcore in my mountain hunting life. And uh, he you know, you get back and like life seems a little bit easier because because uh, by comparison it is so UM. I appreciate that perspective, and I really appreciate the perspective that film gives. UM. And and hopefully everybody gets to hear nolan story and watch that hunt because it is um it's one of the better ones I've seen a long time. And if you can watch it through the prism of pure elevated suffrage, UM, you'll probably enjoy it more and probably cringe a little bit more. And some of the stuff you see, yeah, I mean it's it's the I think the best way I could put it is. Um, if you're you know, a a self considered you know, pretty serious backcountry or mountain hunter, you're definitely gonna like this film. Um. If if you couldn't care less about mountain hunting or goat hunting, I'm pretty sure you're still gonna like this film because of what you just outlined it it is. It's you know, it's sure it's a hunting story, UM. But I think you know, like you outlined Ben, the um the camaraderie, the teamwork, um. You know, the the environment like the environment was was showcased obviously, um and and the suffrage it took to to get it done. And that was, you know, admittedly a big part of what we wanted to share and while at the same time not stilly getting all romantic, but it's just show that, you know, not all hunting is um as easy as some people might think it to be. And I do hope that some people that don't hunt will stumble across it and kind of go, huh wow. I didn't think that was something that happened, right, um and and uh so, And I don't want that to sound like it was you know, contrived or manipulate. I mean, this is this is what it took. But um, and we knew that going into it, and that was part of why we wanted to do a film. We knew we were gonna We're gonna come home with something pretty different. So so yeah, I just encourage and would be grateful for for anyone that's listening to to check it out. Um. It is on the longer side of what's considered normal these days. Ironically, when we talk about attention spans an eight hundred word stories, et cetera. It is a twenty minute, um, you know film. So it's not something I would say watch on your on your phone if you can avoid it. But we've we've had a lot of great feedback and the response has been phenomenal. And I'd like to add, ben if I could just quickly that, um, all credit is due to Connor at tell Us Creative because he is really the brains behind what you see in that film. You know, the shots, the shot angles, the way it was edited and cut together, the music, everything that that is that is his. That is his baby, right. I mean I was involved obviously, um in whatever capacity you want to call my involvement, But um, I was very thankfully able to you know, chime in as needed and when needed and then let Connor UM produce what you saw. So he's he's got an immense amount of talent, and you know everyone's everyone's been loving the film that has watched it. Well, that's good. I've always found that it's nice to have really creative people around to make you look good. That's indeed my experience. But this it's fantastic. Peace and hope everybody goes and checks it out and checks out the journal Mountain Hunting and it just kind of gets immersed in Adam's world and and the people he strounds himself with. Because it is UM. I'd like to be real, real sy stake to the old podcast and bring it all around. It is something that can can help how you see hunting and really is is my estimation about the experience, and UM can connect with with hunters on a different level and people maybe that don't hunt, to help help put that thing down. So the next time we have a controversy, everybody has UM their ideas all packaged up and ready to go to UM fight these battles that we we always we need to fight UM because we hate to use those terms, but it's the truth. So Adam, thank you very much for coming on and joining me, and um for doing what you do in our industry, in our world, and uh being our resident Canadian if you don't mind being that guy, and I sure don't think of any damon, all right, brother, thank you so much. Thank you, Ben, really appreciate the time, and uh for everyone listening. Thanks for sitting aside at the time to listen to a Canadian with a funny accent. That's about it. I can't say about very good. But a boots get you gotta get your boot. It's a boot, Ben, a boot. That's a boot. It there you go, man, Thanks Ben, take care. That's it. That's all. Episode number sixteen in the books. Thank you to Adam. Thank you to the journal Amountain Hunting for doing what you do. Everybody associated with that media house, making films, making podcasts, printing out magazine. We really appreciate you, appreciate your message, appreciate how you do it. H Episode number sixteen was great. Look forward episode number seventeen. I am making a trip to Bozeman, Montana next week. Hopefully I'll catch up with a lot of guys open to catch up with one Cody Rich, the Rich Outdoors, maybe catch up with the elusive Latvia and Eagle be honest to tell us this home country. Never know. Oh that's gonna go. But I do love Mesa Johnny, so look out for those episode number seventeen and eighteen. Hopefully we'll be those two folks, but we're headed there that it's gonna be fun until then. The Honey Collective dot com has articles, it has videos, it has other podcasts from Steve Rinella, Remy Warrant, John Dudley, Shane Mahoney. I'll remarcus the two most recent. I really want you to listen to a Ryan Callahan on episode number fifteen and Casey Butler an episode number fourteen. Both great, great, great people and a great hunt. I had those guys. It's Noora Mexico, so I'm not so norm Mexico so Noora Texas Way North. But those are two great podcasts with great guys, So keep listening, keep comment at video B three oh one, on Instagram and on our website. We'd love to hear from me. I'd love to see the emails, love to hear your stories. Please please keep coming it gets me up in the morning sometimes to read those awesome accounts and awesome reasoning everything you want me to know. Even if you want to tell me that I saw, I'll read it. I appreciate you, guys, see you and instep and

Save this episode