00:00:08 Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I grew up. Hey, everybody welcomed Episode one forty three of The Hunting Collective. I've been or Brian and I'm joined by Phil t Engineer. Say hi Phil, I'm here. Hello. How are you doing, buddy? I'm doing all right? Uh. I think this work this week has been It's it's only Monday, so i'm but this week seems to have been pretty stressful for everyone in the office so far. It's not working out real well for us. Now I'm we're back at home. There is construction in the studio. Um, there's smoke filling the air. We have some COVID issues. But here we are, and here's Ryan Callahan. What's up, buddy? Oh you know the usual. I guess I wouldn't say the usual. I would say the opposite of the usual. Um, it's September and I have not a hundred a single day of September, which is, uh, you know a lot of years. I'm about fourteen days behind where I would typically be. So yeah, yeah, I feel I feel like there is just that's just an air of desperation right now, both to get out in the woods, and to get work done and to produce these fine programs for all of you out there. Um, So you'll have to excuse us if we're not already drinking um, because I've been. I've had a few white claws already. I'm not gonna lie, Um, Phil, Phil, are you sober? You know I'm sober. I just finished a Gatorade zero sugar If that counts. I don't think that counts. Um Cal What are you doing to cope with all this time not hunting elk and such? You know, I got the puppy Snort, a little female yellow lab, and um, she's been awesome him. I've been doing a lot of training with her than i've been working on the freezer situation, which you know, it's so funny, like I'm just now getting around to this. This is the very end of this is the most bare freezer situation I've ever had. Uh, in preparation four hunting season, given a lot of meat away at the beginning of COVID, like back in March or whenever that was. And I also in preparation for this for some media that we were going to produce, like producing a bunch of like how to sausage making stuff. I had like sixty pounds of sausage that I had ground and mixed, so it was just game meat, and it's a mix of like antelope, little tiny bit of antelope mule, you're uh whatever, trium. I had in there, a lot of elk trim and pork fat, and then that was gonna be just our base and then we're gonna mix it with a bunch of stuff and do some sausage making content. And then uh so I was like, I am not gonna go elk hunting until that stuff is done because I had, you know, basically three five pound sacks of this chorus ground base in the freezer and you got the very last of it cranking out today. Um So that's like my keep saying excuse for not being out hunting. Uh. I was like, hey, you made a plan, you're sticking to it. But at the same time, it's just you know, there's just a lot going on and trying to keep everything. Yeah, I feel I mean, you're not missing too much. I got some stories for you guys from my first hunting for rays of the season. Um, I've had my dad in town. Were the last like eight days we hunted fairly hard. He's sixty seven, and so there's a lot of places we couldn't go that that could have been a little bit more productive than order we were. But we were into elk Um. There was a few not so sharp moments that I'll have to I have to tell other stories. I have to tell just because I feel I feel guilty if I kept them to myself. But you're not missing too much. Cal We ran into couple of bugle and bulls and had some action. But I think, uh, elk hunting's best days are yet to come. So you finish that sausage, You'll be just fine. Oh yeah, man, And I'm super pump to you. I've been shooting the long guns a little bit, you know, slinging arrows in my garage and you know, get the opportunity to archery hunt all all runt out and I hit up some spot that are typically good a little bit later in the season. Montana's got a long season. But yeah, man, it's it's it sucks not going to Idaho and run around and um, you know, I love early season l cunning. I I just really really enjoy the first couple of days of the season. First week of the season. But I really looking forward to getting dog out and you know, turning her into a good citizen. And have spent you know, decent amount of time trying to line up some time on the calendar for for that for dog hunting slash training, and that's a difficult deal to you know, because it's like I firendly believe if you're there's a very few people out there that when it's not there puppy are going to have paid Asians to be out with a bird dog in training, you know, because it's like, well, this is moling my only weekend two and watching you scream at your dog is not as much fun as I hadn't envisioned the day. Yeah, what what do you learn? I mean, like people, you know for this show that haven't heard about Snort. Give people a rundown of breed and how you came to um acquire old Snort. Yeah, so it's friends Riverstone Kennels out of Wisconsin and have had, you know, some friends outside of those folks that have purchased their puppies in the past and they've been really good dogs. And I've hunted with those dogs and then I actually hunted with the mom of my dog. And these folks at Riverstone, they just they do a good job of checking in right there, like you ready for your puppy, yet we understand, we get it. And uh then this year they're like, hey, this is going to be this dog's last litter. They typically only do two letters per female, but this is their dog and used to be a Buddy Mines dog and really really phenomenal hunter. And they're like, well, we got got your name on a puppy, like just you just gotta do it like Nile is the time, and so hey, yeah, it was pretty funny when we first got cleared to kind of fly. It magically lined up with Delta just opening up the ability to fly with with like a non service animal. And so I flew to Minnesota, rented a card road Wisconsin, picked up puppy foot around, came back, stayed at one of the worst hotels I've ever stayed at. And that's including like a long line of like railroad flop house hotels in my youth that we'd stand for hunting purposes, and and man, this place was gnarly, laughably gnarly. And then don't skip over that park count we I think gnarly hotel stays should be could be a regular segment on any podcast, but we need to hear this one. So the dude. So it's like a family hotel, right, as in a family ran it. But it was just this guy. And there's like a sign on the desk that says these are the people checking in. Here's the keys, like don't bother me between these hours of the day. And so that's odd. And as I'm like hauling my bag in, this guy walks out the front door barefoot and he's like you stand here. I was like yeah, it's like yeah, me too. He's like, you ain't seen nothing yet. Okay, so walk in, like grab my keys, signed my name go down. I was bringing a bunch of fish back with me. Uh So I had wanted to have a refrigerator in the room, which they had a kitchen at room, and it was like you just couldn't look that closely at anything because you just couldn't be there. So like there's definitely some mold and some nastiness, and and they had I was up early the next morning and I can hear somebody just like knocking on every door, like what the heck is going on. So I packed up all my stuff go out. There's the other person staying there, the only other person that I saw on the little mom Paw Hotel the whole time. And he's like, hey, have you seen the manager. It's like nope, I haven't. And he's like, well, I'm locked out of my room. And I keep banging on his door and nobody's answering, and like, my girlfriends in there, and we like, we gotta get going. Where's the girlfriend in the manager's room or in his room? In his room? And he was asking me if I had a screwdriver so he could like pop the door open and get in his room. And I didn't ask any more questions. I just said, no, I do not have a screwdriver. Good luck to you, probably for the best. But I did drive away thinking I'm like, well, if your girlfriends in the room, yeah, that's that's what I was just thinking, is she a lie? I do not want to be the one who then assists you to get in the room. Yes, it may be locked for a reason, but yeah, anyway, picked up the puppy, like walked around a little bit. Uh, gotta hang out with her parents and watch them do some retrieves and stuff and just you know, talk the bird dog stuff through training. The training retrievings set up and and then uh away we went a borrowed Byron's fat cat soft kennel that they brought one of their cats up in and uh had that smash down in my bag through the puppy and that thing hopped on the flight and uh a nice little lay over in the Delta Lounge. Puppies. First pe was out on the tire MAAC in Salt Lake City, and which is funny, so they have like it's for certain it's a service animal relief area. And since it's not uh like in a secure area, it's literally out on the tarmac. Uh you know, somebody who's working there has to take you out so your animal can relieve itself. I was like, hey, you know, I got this little puppy here and I'm sure she's got a pee, and uh well he's like, oh yeah, I got like five minutes. It's like let's go, so you like walk out onto the tarmac in Salt Lake City. Um, she goes and does her thing. I don't want to like yank get in the habit of like yanking. This puppy out of the kennel because I want her to have her little safe spot, you know. So like unzipped the little cat door and snort. She wasn't even named at that point, like steps out and like looks around. It was like, nope, nope, not for me, ninety degree tire mac in Utah and uh. But eventually she came out Beeden and uh. I felt like we established some real trust there well, and with any relationship, trust that comes first. So we're glad. Do you feel like I remember one of the first times we had our new little format here, it was probably a year and some change ago, we talked a little bit about your love life and how you just felt that, you know, you're a lone ranger in many of respects. Now now you have a dog living with you once again because you've had dogs in the past, so you're feeling different now you're feeling different with with this new relationship you got in your life. Oh certainly, yeah. I mean there's my my days are much longer and not out of selfishness, so getting getting a lot done. Yeah, So what's the what's the snort plan? Like you have? I know you guys have already been doing some training. Yes, it's it's really interesting that the dog, she's like not that great of a retriever on land, Like she has her big days, like her good days, um in the spot that I always take her, and then I've been changing it up, like where we go the river and water wise, like she's been swimming in the Missouri and she's swam in the yellow Stone and um, East Kellaton and all over the place now um, and she's like goes like a bat out of hell and is very very talented, very strong swimmer, like knows her pursuit angles, like just picked it up in two days of you know, like training a dog in current is super super important, both for the fact that you don't want to missing birds, but also for you know, dogs safety. I've seen firsthand where dogs spend the majority of their lives on ponds, lakes, still water, really slow moving water, and as a mature dog, even that current can get them in a lot of trouble because they don't see danger sneaking up on them, you know, so entrapment issues. The So it's it's very cool to see this puppy kind of doing the math so to speak, right, like seeing where the dummy lands, where she needs to enter the water, and what angle she needs to swim at to intercept the dummy as it moves towards her, and uh, and so it was just kind of this realization the other day. It's like the reason that she doesn't like retrieving on land is because it's freaking boring compared to what we've been doing. She's like, ah, I don't know, Oh, I've this is it, I got it. What else can we do? Is kind of the thing. So um, which which is like something you know, it's been I've trained a lot of dogs over the years, and it's just been a long hiatus since since I've trained a dog, and um, so it's retraining me as well. Um, but it is fun to be you know what. My excitement over bird hunting has been nil since I had lost my last dog, and now it's like very exciting. Like I said, I've put some effort into coming up with some opening day plans and and some trips and some ideas to get her gone. So yeah, well so we'll do opening day of waterfowl, will do um, you know, try to get her out on some grouse. Yesterday she did great you know, she's young, young, she's only five months old, um, and so it's not like going out and expecting anything. It's just going out. My expectation is she's gonna sit when I tell her to sit, She's gonna come when I tell her to come, And that's about it. Right. So yeah, Well, have you've been through the the ringer with dogs before, especially with you know, loved and lost? And I think it's it's a real popular, popular and meaningful soliloquy for people when their dogs passed to kind of reflect on that. Does that change how you work with snort? Like you know that you kind of have loved and lost before, or you've been through the whole process of owning a dog, training dog and losing him. Does that change anything for you? Yeah? For sure, for sure, there's like, uh, you know, there is there's there's a little bit of a like how close do I want to get to this thing? Like the clocks ticking? Like ten years? Maybe right? Um, it could be a little longer than ten years. Definitely under thirteen. You know, working dark dogs get beat up pretty good. Whole host issues could come out of this, right So um that I mean, that's definitely in there, and then you know, they're just the comparisons when you're like analyzing character because they're all individuals and it's like, Okay, is this dog going to be more apt to do this, less apt to do this? Is that a dog that's going to respond to discipline? Is it a dog that needs to be treated very delicately? Like where are these lines and boundaries? And and you know that's part of the fun and definitely the challenge um and those realistic expectations, right is like all I want is two have a dog that listens, right, And that's a giant safety thing. And I've already run into some people on walks and stuff that are like they're like, oh, jeez, you don't need to yell at that puppy. That's just a puppy. And I'm like, well, your dog is not a puppy and it's a ship head. Yes, And I'm not gonna talk about this. I'm me and Phil were talking about this earlier. Lee. I mean, I live in the suburbs, and the leash people dogs off leashes are just it's just a ridiculous thing. And I feel like a lot of times these dogs take on kind of the attentiveness of their owner in terms of their personality, you know, because if the if the dog owner is attentive to what that dog's up to and then making sure that it's that dog listens, then they're not gonna have as many problems as if you just kind of write that off just dogs doing what dogs do. Next thing, I know, my kids getting whacked, you know, knocked over on the playground from a dog off the leash. You know, these are very suburban problems, but nonetheless, you know there's there's a parallel. Oh yeah, we'll take it out of the suburbs. Right. It's like if you can't recall that dog, Uh, rural roads are dangerous because intermittent traffic. Like it's just the dog is not aware of it. Uh. Nobody likes a flat dog, as I always like to say. And so you've got a lot of investment in that animal, like they're in they're stupidly expensive, right, I'm not telling any anything to you as a couple of kids now, but it's like there's a significant monetary investment. And then obviously it's like you love the damn things too, so um, it pays to be disciplined and the you know my past dogs, if you put a leash on one, uh, they acted like their soul just got crushed because if you told them to walk at heel, they walked at heel. They didn't go to investigate anything unless you told them that it was okay. If they wanted to go do something, they looked up at you from heel and they're like, good, can we can we do this? Right? And so through training there there was a leash like that dog was always in command. But that type of training is you know, a multi year commitment, right, and that trust is so tough because when you were confident enough to walk a dog like that around and there's you know, like I'd walk them anywhere I was, any city I was in. That's how they were. And I'm sure like the casual looker on just assume that dog was on a leash, right, Um, But it's like one screw up from that dog. It sees something, that chases something whatever, and it, you know, it gets smashed by a car. That's not the dog's fault, that's your fault. And the the first thing you think, I was like, yeah, why didn't I have it on the leash? You know, it's probably hubris um for the most part, right, But it's like there's a lot of Yeah, I mean there's just like you want that that dog to perform in in such a way and it's definitely a reflection upon yourself. So yeah, it's definitely a lot of hubris in the game. Now, Phil, do you feel like Mango? I don't know if I don't call if you know, if you've ever met Mango or have I seen Mango? And they me either, so I'm not sure if Mango is even real. I'm assuming i've seen photos. Phil, Do you feel like Mango could ever cut it out on the water and in the mountains in the woods of Mango just not built for it. She definitely aims to please, and I think with like, I'm not, um, I I couldn't do this because I'm not a professional like trainer of dogs, but I think with some work, she would absolutely love to get out there and do do some some bird dogging, as you guys say, um, but but yeah, it would definitely take some work though, because she is She's auntsy. She is just a live wire, and we don't know what her life was like before we got her because she was just picked up off of the fourt Peck Indian Reservation at a little over a year old. She gets very very scared and defensive because she's pretty small. And um so that's another thing we were talking about dogs on leashes. It's not just about your dog. Like your dog could be the friendliest, nicest dog running around off of a leash, but um, if if they approach if like if like if if an off leash dog approaches Mango and we always have Mango on on on a leash, um, she just like completely just like melts down. She can't she can't handle it. And um so just don't don't just think about your dogs, think about others dogs and other human beings as well when you have dog off of a leash. Um anyway, I'm just bringing it back to the phill. Then you have to yell Mango out, like if you're in the duck blind you can go Mango, Mango, and then everyone turns and says it says, what a great dog name. Yeah, they don't do that at all. Snort is a good a good thing to yell out. Cal you found like start start, like that's a good thing to screen. It's pretty good. It's pretty sharp yeah, that that's my rule. Rad. It's like, you can pick whatever name you want. You just gotta be comfortable yelling at at the top of your lungs in a very crowded place full of people who you do not know. Yep, yep, Phil, Can you just give us one? Like if Mango is misbehaving, what's the tone that you use? Mango? It's usually like a mango, that's that's the mango. Yeah, that's that's the lilt there. Now you you you got it wrong, but you'll you'll, you'll work on it. And it's fine. Mango you do like a question, All right, that's fine, you're not see we'll bring manga this year. Oh, it's so cool. Like the thing that happens once with like working dog ownership is when you watch them put things together and and like the big reveal. The coolest part, right is you're doing all this work, which is a lot of times play and then the dogs like, oh I like this, and you can see like their brands working and they and they enjoy figuring out the puzzle like why do you put me in this box and then tell me to go? What? Why do you make me sit up? You know? Behind you on the stream bank and then let me retrieve. You know, it's like all these things and then like the very first duck when the situation is right, it could be the second or third duck, but it's right in that that time frame, and the dog goes grabs it, brings it back to you, and then all of a sudden, it's like you can see him kind of go like, oh my god, there's something about this I really really like and like that. Animals then changed forever and I've seen it on a handful of dogs now. But it is so freaking cool. It is so cool. Like they never look they never look at a tennis ball the same way. Again, It's like, oh, yeah, that is for play, and play is great. But let me tell you what I really want to do. I have, like, I have serious jealousy over snort. Um. I'm holding I'll hold out my jealousy, but over mango because I'm not I don't really know what mango brings to the table necessarily, um, but I do because I've wanted to have I wanted to get a gun dog for years. I had a buddy was offering me a fully trained British lab. A couple of years ago, and my wife just basically said, well, we can get one, but the human children. We have to take care of those first, and as soon as you feel like we gotta handle them, that we can get a dog. I've yet to feel like I have a full handle on it, and so no dog. I think we're gonna have to wait till the kids are old enough to help take care of the dog. But for now, I'm just gonna have to have the the snork jealousy that I've got. Well, you know, the good thing is, um it's just like you know, having any sort of first time hunter in the field, like the best thing that you can do is leave your shotgun at home. Right. So, once things are right and I'm I'm confident that it's going to be a somewhat pleasurable experience, I'm gonna need folks that want to go get a couple of birds so I can work with the dog and and they can do the shooting. So m Phil has been I want to say, I don't want to say reluctant to do the work of the hunter's safety course. Uh. I feel like he's been thinking about it, but finally recently he sent me a text or some sort of message that said like, I'm doing it. Finally, I'm halfway through the hunter Safety Course, which I feel like, you know, similar to snort, you know, getting that first retrieve right. I feel like phil Is is coming around and I'm seeing the joy in his eyes as he starts to think about what hunting might be like. So Phil, give us an update on your Hunter's Safety Course progress. Okay, well, I am still not finished, but I'm I'm I'm chipping away at it. Uh. It's definitely a lot. I mean, some of the quiz questions are a little silly or it's like what should you do with a gun? And it's like answer he pointed at other people, answer be pointed at your foot, answer cee, Like keep the muzzle and pointed in the air. It's safely away from people. You know. It's stuff like that. But I am learning a ton of stuff that I never knew. Um, just like apart from the quiz stuff like I just finished the section, just all about different kinds of like guns and ammunition, and as a person who just never grew up with any of that stuff like family members and didn't I never grew up with guns in the house, never had family members who had guns. It's, um, my only knowledge of firearms is through video games and movies. So, uh, just learning like what a gauge is and like different kinds of actions. Uh, it's I mean, I've been I've been enjoying it. It It doesn't feel like a chore, you know, UM, which I feel like it might for people who maybe grew up with hunting and they're like, oh, I gotta go through this, But for me, I'm like, oh no, I'm just eager to learn all this stuff that I never knew about. UM. So yeah, it's been good. It's never had It's never bad to have a refresher, even for those of us who have been doing for a long time, because you don't there's not a lot of hunting camp conversations or hunting podcast conversation what we're talking about what a gauges or discussing it, and so I know, can I know you know this cow? We talked about this before, I think on this show or somewhere. UM. Teaching people is a good way to remind yourself of how much do you know, and how well you can articulate the stuff you think you know, and how easy it is for other people to understand. Um, that certainly helps me to understand what is a gun? What do you do with it? Well, if you've got to explain to somebody who's never done it before, boy, that's a damn good way to get yourself acquainted with your own knowledge set and a good reason to go mentor somebody. So, Phil, when do you how many modules you have left? Doesn't it come in modules? Yeah? I don't remember how many there are. I want to say there's like eight to ten, um, and I've got five. I think I just finished number four, so um, yeah, I'm like somewhere in the halfway point. I'm not sure exactly where though. Now. We'll check back in with you when you when you're feeling feeling like you're gonna get done. Make sure don't take the test until we've talked about it, until we've discussed it, until you're confident. We cannot have you fail in the test. Okay, I will not fail that important. We're gonna take you hunt for the first time this fall, and we cannot have you We don't want you to look like a failure after all the time I've invested in training you, so much time I'd never let you down, Ben, Yeah, please don't let me down. And by and bye the bye. Phil. I might not know this, but we have a listener by the name of Eric Hall who always sends us. Um. He sent encouragement to Phil as Fils going through the process of wanting to become a hunter. Uh. Just a quick message for Eric Hall. I haven't received an email for him in about three weeks, and after weekly emails for about a year and a half. You know, Ben, I think we heard his feelings when I said that we shouldn't feature him on the show as much. I'm a little worried about him, Um, and I'm wondering where he is. Well. I just wanted to know that Eric, I would love for you to give us an update and please keep calling and writing, and yeah, please keep leaving your messages. We miss I've missed you, frankly, and uh, Phil, Phil's hunting process won't be the same without your commentary, so so please come back. Um. Hopefully Phil didn't upset you too much with his commentary. Um, what do you like, cal, what do you what do you need to tell Phil about this what he's about to embark on? He said, it's been so long we've waited for him to complete this hunter safety Well, I yeah, I mean, just complete the hunter safety the I mean that's what I wanted to hear. Yeah, get it done, son. Just see here. Here's the thing, Ben, I I love you, but I think you're I think you're making a grave mistake in building this up uh so much. I think I'm going to be inevitably uh disappointed in in some aspect in one way or another. I think we need to bring it way down. And that way my expectations will be exceeded rather than uh, you know, not met. Your expectations should just be like, boy, it's nice to be outside the you know, um man, every I took a big, long walk yesterday morning. Um just picked a ridgeline and hiked it, and I had a twenty two on my back and stomped through a bunch of brush looking for grouse for snort, and just you know, walk straight up a mountain, turned around, walked down the mountain, and I came back without a bird or without firing a shot. It was just a walk. And I now know so much more about that area then I ever ever did before. Like that's a win. And that's a great way to spend the time. I never would have gone up that ridge had I not been thinking, boy, that looks like there's a bunch of growls up there. But still challenges me all the time with that because I told him like, hey, you know, there's so many things we wouldn't get to do if we weren't hunters. And he's like that, I don't believe it. He said, didn't you know that what you said, Phil, Because you said, I think you could just go in up you know it was what one around the woods and you'd have the same experience. Well, I I didn't say the same, but I'd say, I guess my I think my argument was that, like you, there's there's many ways to like connect with the outdoors, and that that that don't end with you firing a gun. I think was like sort of what I said. But um, that that's I mean, that's sort of comes back to the point of why I think the expectations should be, uh should be lowered. You know. Well, let me let me clarify something here. A lot of my stories at this point in my life, Uh, they start with firing a gun, like the pack out situation, like what happens after you make the decision to pull the trigger or throw an arrow. Holy sh it, man, that's when things get interesting. I mean, my god, you're right, I I gotta tell you. So my dad comes to town, right I got. I feel like I jumped the gun and inviting him. He drew a general season out tag, and I got so excited. I'm like, you have to be here on opening day, because why not as soon as we can go hunting. We need to go hunting, not thinking about you know, weather, rut activity, how easy your heart would be to travel around the country in early September. I mean, we didn't have a great week of hunting. It wasn't the best week of hunting in terms of elk or no elk, or excitement or no excitement. That being said, like we had an awesome time. We got up early, we stayed up late, We drank, we laughed, we cried, we hiked around the mountains. I got a few stories from the week that I have to share, like I said, But by the bye, I mean, I spent time with my dad, and um, I don't know, I don't know of any other way. I'm not experienced any other way. Him and I've spent time outside fishing, metal detecting, foraging, and a munch of other ways. I've never it never feels the same as it feels like when we're hunting. So I mean just that just that experience is compared to other experiences outside just not quite the same. Yeah, And I totally get. I mean, I totally understand that when you're like, if you're out there hunting, your your senses are calibrated differently than if you were to go for a hike or go fishing or go mountain biking or whatever. And like that's that's sort of what I'm excited to experience. Um, just kind of looking and listening and you know, smelling for different things. That's a good way to put it. Though, senses are calibrated differently. I mean, that's a pretty good explanation of what it's really going on there, because certainly, are you walk walk down the road and you can smell war a bowl out crawl across the road, I mean, you're I mean that smell hitting your nose is a sensory experience a lot different than if you weren't pursuing that animal and you smelled that same aroma so that's definitely a big deal. And I would say, I guess I have to tell you. I don't know if I should even tell you this, Phil. I'll let you decide if you want to hear this or not. Um, I had a little, a little poop issue in the woods. Um it ended up it ended a hunt and ended the day's hunt. And there was hunt. Yeah, there was there was ship in the pants. Um, and then I got Ben. I gotta be honest, I don't know. I don't know how many more ship stories I can. I know. I think I was looking through nots of sharp moments before we hit record, and I'm like, not eight of them involved someone shipping on themselves. And I just don't I don't know if I want to propagate that much shipping of the pants conversation for for anybody who hasn't done it yet outside. I mean, you you are kind of reaping what what you sewed right now a little bit. Cow. Do you want to hear the story? Should I just save it for another time because it it is uh, extremely embarrassing? Oh yeah, I mean, I guess how much have you been? How deep are you into the poop poop issues? According to Phil it seems it seems like, yeah, that the smell still lingers from the last one. Well what what? What I can't tell you is that Ben has lost has Lost a Perspective podcast because he listened to the show and thought it was too juvenile. Yeah. I was just gonna bring up that anecdote. Yeah, there was a very esteemed uh biologist wildlife biologists who I had asked to come on the show and talk about elk, specifically like getting in the mind of an elk, what an elk is thinking, why it does what it does, etcetera, etcetera. Uh. He said that sounds very interesting and then listen to an episode and said this one's not for me. And I said why and he said, uh, the poop stories. See. I think that's that's why. When when when you're looking for guests, Ben, I think you should curate your own list of shows that they should listen to, like here a few examples of what I, well, what my show is like. Otherwise they'll they'll listen to all the worst ones. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think I'll leave the poop story out of this, just know that it happened. Save it for I'm gonna save it for a rainy day. But I will tell the story of our running with a grizzly bear. My dad and I was running with a grizzly bear, because I think that's important. Cal. You're definitely you did an episode already of Col's we can review in the field right where you were in Idaho messing around with grizzlies, right, Yeah, definitely not definitely not messing around, man, when you're dealing with grizzly bears. Um. And I was um with Idaho Fishing Game, um. And then several members of Idaho Fishing Game are on the inter Agency Grizzly Team, and so they're they're working hand in hand with biologists inside Yellowstone National Park, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming. And yeah, it uh like all very good folks, but you know, you're you're dealing with an animal that commands a lot of respect on its own and then it's also got a giant spotlight on it from the public, and so everything we did is very much like these are big, tough animals, and you know, we were moving them around and it was very amazing. Impressed. I was impressed by everybody, like their professionalism in regards to that animals well being and safety as far as like when you went to move an arm, Um, you were all reminded every time, and not in hey, you idiot type of way, but like a protocol sort sort of way, like now when you move the arm, like remember like the joint swings out like this, like be very careful as you're moving the animal around and stuff like that. Yeah. So um, and that was for a population population dynamic study that's been going on, um since the eighties. Yeah, those those are interesting, I think talking about being able to we live in we live in a place where you know, grizzly encounters are are still rare and in certain spots, but um, when they happen, we talk about them and you hear about them, and they're important because it's just like you said that that human interaction with grizzlies and their own population dynamics are a huge part of the conservation element of of grizzlies. I mean it really is, how how how how often do they run into humans is a big part of, um, how we decide what to do in certain areas of grizzly bears, especially where you were I'm sure, oh yeah, I mean we were read you know, we were on the corridor, like the North South corridor. UM, that is West Yellowstone, you know, the busiest park entrance. Uh, there's two ways to get to Grand Teton National Park from from the same road. And then you have all the people that aren't there to visit, there there to work or live. And it's you know, you're talking about millions of vehicles on the road alone. Like so if you just want to narrow it down to like vehicle encounters with wildlife, that's that's can be a pretty pretty grizzly stretcher road. UM. And then when you branch that out into recreators, and again you're talking a couple of national for US at two national parks, some state parks. Uh, you have a lot of people recreating out there, both in campsites and in dispersed campsites. Plus the folks that are going out to you know, hunt, mushroom pick all the fun things that can be found off trail. It's it is absolutely wild. And I'll tell you we trapped a bore the very first day. These are all you know, live traps, and it was a four and seventy nine pound, fifteen year old bear. And you know, it's a July, so they just got done with the rut mating season. So that bear had been working really hard and it was, you know, like an All American athlete, right, four pounds is a big bear, and this is a big bear in the time of year where it really should be the skinniest bear. Um. And so he was just probably starting to think, you better start putting on a lot more pounds for the winner. And that was within you know, as the crow flies half a mile from from uh, you know, pretty pretty darned busy road, and than the other bear that we caught really about twenty four hours later as all, so extremely fortunate for you know, our time frame, which doesn't leave that much time for patients. Um. And the second bear was twenty two years old, about threes three seventy one if memory serves three pounds um. Both of these bears have been collared and captured in their youth, one at three, one at five. And they there's quite a bit of data on both bears, the second one more so because it had actually been colored inside the park at five years old, and they knew, you know, at least like general sense of where these guys traveled, where these guys spent their time, and I mean they are the things that go bump in the night like they are, these just big wise grizzlies that are around people all the time. That three pound bear. Um actually sent Mark Kenyon a picture of it and said, look what I caught today, because it's on the road to the cabin that he has down there. Um, and it's you know, to pave the road. It's not that far. Um, this particular road, spur road that we were on, you know, isn't going to get you down to the river or something like that. But it's like you do not have to go fire to bump into a lot of people. And those bears are there, you know, at that time of year all the time. So um, they they and so no encounters like these are quote unquote good bears. They've never been in a trash can, they've never scuffed up a person, and um, you know there there you know, like hands on is is sometimes hands feet body on uh working with these grizzlies and both of their their heads were just like piles of scars, you know, just scar tissue on top of scar tissues. So they're not like some cartoon bear that's chasing butterflies. They're they're out there scrapping it up just like all the board. Grizzlies are, um, you know, fighting over territory, fighting over mates, fighting over food sometimes and and just very very impressive animals. And they are closer than you could imagine to an insane amount of people. So yeah, that's a big thing. I can't wait to see that what you guys put together off of that, because that's a big thing for me. A lot of the conversations we've had here on this show, and I'm sure around the Mediator universe, are kind of intangible looks at grizzly bears when you're talking about population dynamics and cohabitation and what should we do what should we not do? But you know, to be able to put your hands on an animal like that while it's still alive and and take it, you know, and and study it and look at it and just be a see something very tangible and then know where it is, where it's lives, where it's gonna live, how many people it could encounter but probably won't. Um. You know, that's just a different perspective, a different level of perspective that I that I hope people get from that um when it comes out, because that's a pretty damn cool thing to to be a part of. Yeah. No, it was an incredible, incredible opportunity and again just just just impressive, impressive to be around folks that are just so professional and you know, it really is go time, right, So there's a there's a federal trapping season that these all these biologists that are doing these types of studies, like it's trapping season, just like if you were making money off the hides. These these folks are like getting things prepared all year long for this live trapping season where they can go collect their data um or go get callers on bears to collect more data. Really, um, you're taking a lot of data when you're when you're working up the bears too. But um and and it's just like very prepared, very efficient. Again. The animals, well, welfare is top of mind. You have uh an oximeter, so you're making sure that bear gets enough oxygen. You actually pull the bear's mouth apart and clip the oximeter on their tongue, which is pretty wild, right because these bears aren't It's like they're on there badly, badly intoxicated. Like blackout, intoxicated without the use of their muscles. Um. But they're not technically asleep either, you know. So uh there there's a little bit of movement. There's definitely some noises and they're like, yeah, Cal go ahead and just you know, pride that bear's mouth, hope, And that's what I would have been, like, yeah, you do that, We'll do Yeah. Well, I mean, on my end, I've never I've had one other one other group. I had a grizzly bear and counter up in Northwest Territories. That was kind of one I care every hunt of years ago. That was kind of uh, you know, I got my hackles up a little bit, kind of scary, but nothing like the recent one here in in our very young Gallatin Valley. UM. And I'll tell you man, like I have Joe Ferronado, UM who's on this podcast and formally a mediator employee, like he he got charged with a bear earlier this year. Every time somebody around Big Sky or Bozeman or somewhere around here has a mix up with a barry here about it. I mean, so it's definitely kind a heightened part of my hunting life. I mean, you grew cal you grew up around here, Like what's the what are the change is before I tell my story, Like what are the changes have you seen in terms of like the frequency that guys are getting you know, reported mix ups or stories out there in the world. I mean, there's there's no question the frequency is has gotten, you know, has cranked up much more frequent, No, no question whatsoever. So like you know, growing up running all over um wasn't even that concerning than started spending a lot more time with the Bob Marshall um, where it's like, yes, there are bears here, started working out a Glacier National Park, Yes there are there are grizzly bears here. Um. But you know, in the Bob it was like, oh, check it out, grizzly bear track. That's cool. Don't see that that often? See one bear trip maybe you know, you know, if you're out really hunting, and then it's like, you know you're going to see a bearer trip. And then there was two bears a trip, and and you know, tracks on all the trails that we use, like all the heavy human traffic trails, lots of tracks, um. And you know there's some food benefit to that behavior. Unfortunately, like either you know, hard hard years, they're going to be eating uh, scat from the stock, all the mule and horse poop, you know, eating the leftover grain out of it, stuff like that. So there is some some incentive to being where the people are on certain times a year. But if it's like that thing that everybody tells themselves where it's like, oh, they're more scared of you than you are them, it's like, well, just like anybody, they're not really looking to pick a fight, but if they need to be there, they're going to be there. So I you know, I know grizzly bear sightings when I was when I first moved to Bosman, I knew that it would be part of my hunting life at some level, um, but I didn't think it would be so forward facing as it has been the last couple of years. Pretty much everywhere I go, you know, the fodder around town here and opening days is as much about grizzy bear encounters as it seems to be about big elk encounters. Um. The folks I'll talking to in the last couple of years and this year for me so far has been about wolves and bears as much as it has been about elk because I don't know if I told you this or I I don't know if I sent you the video. But I have numerous I mean, I've got multiple, probably fifteen to twenty trail cam videos of wolves um on my on my truck camera up not too far from where I'm sitting right now, a matter of fact, And so I spent a lot of my trail cam scouting prep time combing through predator photos and less elk um. Not that that don't I don't think there's a correlation there. But we had I shared this on social but we had a pack of wolves running cattle about me. I was about August twelve running a bunch of cattle up and down this drainage where I've got my cameras where I've been where I know there's a bunch of elk, and we ended up punting and seeing a bunch of elks. So I've had I have what five six seven videos of this all happening. Or it's pretty clear that one of these wolves takes down a calf and you can hear the calf ball and and then you can hear the wolves howling in the background. Some pretty eerie footage of you know, a big adult male standing looking right at the camera while his buddies are howling in the background. Shortly after you can hear this calf balling, and shortly before that you can see these wolves chasing these cows up and down this ridge, this meadow where my trail camera is. So that was kind of my first interaction with this this year. So we called the game warden. My buddy and I called the game warden, and I chatted with the local warden and he he was going to get ahold of the rancher and let him know this was happening, going there and look for a kill site. Uh and and and in the conversation I had with him, he said, man, look these these couple of drainages, these couple of canyons to the east where you're hunting, there's been a grizzly bear spotted. So if there is a kill site there, and you're gonna go look forward, or you're gonna be in that country where that killsite might be of this of these of these cows, just just be careful because grizzly bears are around. And so now I'm going into ELX season, like well, you know, I know that there's were some really good bulls in this one small, kind of tricky little chunk of public. It butts up to private, but I know I can get in. But I also know it's a pretty pretty high possibility I'm gonna see wolves and or gizzy bears in this little zone. And um, you know, it's thirty minutes from my house, so a nice place to be and it's easy to get into for my dad. So we hunted it, and we hunted it for a couple of days and had some good encounters. And a buddy Uh from Meat Eater, somebody who you and I have worked with for a while, also knows about this spot, asked if he could go in there. I said, no problem, knock it dead. He goes in there, calls in a bull, Sparta in Law shoots this bull. That's actually we should talk about that too. Because we had hunted it three days in a row, and we had been on elk every day, we kind of had the lay of the land. We knew what elk were in there, we knew what bulls we wanted to target. We knew exactly kind of the game plan we it snowed. It kind of turned them off. We're going to pull out of there for a few days and let it calm down. And then our our mutual buddy here at a meat eater goes in and called it makes I think he probably two or three cow calls, and immediately two bulls running and they shoot one. I want to congratulations, and I did, but inside you're like, damn it, no, no, I don't need the details. I don't need how many times you calcolled. They're the artists at the ball stopped. That's just let's just call it a day. Or the fact that you were you were walking in on my tracks, walking in on the trucks I made earlier that day, and that I called all up and down that road and didn't hear ship and didn't see anything. Put one one fresh set of bulls tracks. So anyway, that's that's that's n that's publicly and on as part of it. I was happy for a buddy to get get a bull. But anyhow, it is funny that I gotta tell you when I was taking Snort out there um to look for grouse, just you know, a couple of hours, there's a big part of me that I was like, God, I hope I don't bump into any elk. I got just mentally, I'm not sure I can handle it. And um stopped, you know, up on top of the reedge and in another spot where I was like, oh, this thing should be full of blue grouse and I could hear very very clearly another hunter let go with a little bugle. I was like, ah, thank you, thank you. So then I can mentally be like it's overrun with people anyway. I don't want to be well, that's it. Man. Every time I'm in a camp with somebody, they're like, ah, they already killed their elk, or they already got a deer on the ground. I'm just gonna go sit out and I'm here anyway, travel travel all this way to be in some camp with a bunch of out the guided hunters shot my bull in the first day. I'm gonna just go walk around like, don't ever do that, because you're gonna see the biggest bull, the biggest buck of your life. Don't ever give yourself this opportunity because it's gonna happen. If there are elk gods and dear gods, they want to mess with you, and they will send that giant buck after you filled your tag, or if you're just out taking your dog for a walk during the season, it will happen. Yeah, but you know, it's like one of those things. It's like getting something big and giant, um may not be as oh addicting as missing something big and giant. Right, We're like, yeah, now I have to come back. I'm right there, man, this is we had My dad and I had a pretty good start this season. But mentally right now after I'll finish this grizzly story, but mentally after you know, Buddy goes in gets a bull after having a bunch of close calls. My dad's bow string jumped off the cam when we had a bull at a hundred yards, so we had to take a day off a hunt and to get get his bow fixed. And like all these things add up to this this immediate like I'm feeling deadly. I am ready to find some damn six says, and I'm gonna charge harder than ever to figure it out. So I don't mind. I don't mind that mindset. I don't mind going into it like this is gonna happen. I if I needed to happen, I gotta you know all these things can't be for nothing. Yeah, that's the mindset. So we go. You know, we're in the same drainage, so we have the option to kind of leave this little drainage, this little honey hoole, we have rest for a few days. After somebody drops a bull in there and runs down to the bottom, my immediate thought was, there's a fresh carcass. There's a fresh gut pile there. You know, this guy works at meat eaither so there's not a scrap of of edible flesh there. But there's still plenty for gizzi bear to claim, and there's plenty for wolves to circle around of feet on. So I talked to my dad. I said, here's the deal. We can go in there and check this out. There's a there's a different side of the road that we can go on. We can go on the east side of the road, you know, around where this carcass will be, and we'll have a good chance of running into a bull. But I mean it's sketchy. Um, I know there's grizzing there. I know there's wolves. If we shoot another elk, Now there's two carcasses within, you know, five six thousand yards of each other. We're gonna have to be slick and getting it out of there. We're probably going to have some sort of entangment with one of these critters. And then the guy who shot the bull sends me a text, Hey, man, I just want to let you know there were wolf tracks on top of our fresh tracks in the snow, on in between our two pack out trips. So there was wolves trying to find that carcass from the time they took the first load out to can't come back and get the rest of the meat. There was already wolves on this carcass and I already know, yeah, man, and like this pack of wolves has been in there a while. Yeah, so they kill I mean they killed this bull five yards up the drains from where I my trail camera sits, and so that pack of wolves is thick and they're sticking in there. Oh, there's plenty of plenty for them to do. But then I also know from the game warn that there's there's a big boar grizz hanging around the area. And I know that a grizz can smell a pin drop of blood from six or so miles away, and so I'm pretty sure something's gonna go down if we go back in here. The morning after somebody shot a bull into strainage. So my dad and I talked about it. He's like, just grab a pistol and let's go. We'll try to avoid it. Now we know they're elkin here, let's try to get one. And so I agreed, Okay, grab the torrups. I just got a new Tourists forty four mag. And by the way, like I feel like forty four mag is the minimum bear defense pistol. But I've got two or three other pistols that I could have taken. But there is no Ammo and Bozeman. Have you tried to buy Ammo lately, cal, I have not, not at all, not at all. I went to a few I went to a few local places trying to find three fifty seven or ten and there's nothing. I mean, like two boxes on the entire row of shelves for m oh so if you need either of those, I do just odd odd thing my grandpa gave me is three fifty seven and a couple of boxes. I am a couple of weeks ago, so I need it. Yeah, you're you're morning. Welcome to I think I got a box ten mill too, so that's what I'm gonna need to do. But I had a forty four mag and I'm like, I'm confident that that'll stop it at least, although it's not preferable, it will stop it. So I loaded that up, put in the holster, bear spread on one bear spread, and left hip holster pistol on the right. We get going. We're hiking on you know, to make a long story short, We're hiking up to a glassing point where we can look down over this entire drainage down into this private land where these all come up from. And about ten team minutes into our sit, I looked to my left up this ridge about seven yards is the one of the biggest bulls I've ever seen on public land. I mean, this is a pretty damn giant six by six. He's kind of just stomping. He looks piste off. He's stopping across this ridge away from us. So I go to get my dad. I'm let's go, let's go, let's go. We're gonna try to cut him off, and we start running down the road to cut him off. Well, it's just stopped to check the wind. Our wind is totally wrong. It's blowing right to where he was headed to. Feeling kind of screwed, so I just stopped at a little debate. I said, let's back out. Let's go back down to where we were and try to call him back around to us, because we're not gonna he's gonna wind us if we blow this this ridge, so we gotta go back. So we we turned to go back, and as we turned, I stopped once to call a few through three or four or five six calcols across this ridge, just to try to get his attention. As we kind of retreated to get the wind right, and I look across this ridge and like under some pine trees is this big shadowy figure can start to running down the hill. And my first thought was bear. And my second thought was that must be the elk. I mean, that was right where the elk was. That had to be him, but it kind of looked like a bear. And I told my dad, so I'm not sure what that was. I think it's our elk, but it also could have been a bear. Let's run down here anyway and set up in case that was the elk, which how could there be a big bear and an elk standing in the same damn spot. So we run down the ridge. We set up. I'm doing some cow calls. I'm looking down the ridge. I go to move a little bit and I looked down and like a hundred yards below us is the biggest damn grizzly bear I've ever seen. I mean the biggest. I don't know. I'm not a grizzly bear expert. I haven't I laid hands on him like you cal but I just looked like a tractor, like a furry tractor. I've never say anything like it. And I think, luckily for us, I think he was he was obviously coming to the cow call. I think, luckily for us, there was a carcass up drainage, and he turned to head that way instead of coming up to check us out a little bit more. But I got the opportunity to watch this giant bear waddle away like swaying back and forth his fricked shoulders or boat out um washing him in the glass, trying to figure out if he's a grizzly bear. Of course, see the giant hump, blocky head, big swede bellyund grizzly easy. The biggest thing I've ever even seen. It is an interesting thing too, because we had that snow come through last week. Um, higher elevations. Obviously, it was a little bit colder, a little bit longer, a little bit more snow. Um that you know, there's still quite a few berries out. But you know, you get that a couple of nights a hard freeze, which I mean it froze, got below freezing in town three nights in a row, four nights in a row. Right, Um. So yeah, those higher elevations, I'm sure that barry crop um and started to drop off the bushes, you know, and we still got a long way to go before those bears would really want to dan up. Oh yeah, so those carcasses are gonna be real valuable. Yeah, I could and and it it was something I don't know if you've ever kind of run into this right and knew in my head this was I was like, man, I put two and two together and it equal four. I'm like, man, this is really not a great idea. Like we were walking into some we were walking into the like a very high probability of having an en counter here, and uh, I don't want to I still ye. Anyway, we did working with those guys on the Grizz team there, man, they are full like hunting great. Uh. You know what really sucks people leaving their goddamn trash out. Uh. Those bears we have to shoot because they will do whatever it takes to keep eating human food. And it's starts with people, even their trash out. And it's like the stupidest selfish thing, you know. Um. And so it's people, right, It's like it's people in every day. And I've had, you know, a handful of encounters that, um, you know, I've had one one encounter out of several that it was just a true like, oh God, neither of us saw this coming, right, but um. And you know I had one where had I been walking ten yards down the slope versus on top of the ridge, I would have just been walking on a sow and two cubs trail with steaming ship on it, you know, and I would have been like, oh, I'm not going to follow them, you know. Um. But yeah, there there's a lot of there's a lot of woods out there, and there's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate these things were happening. And I always feel like you Ronnell always quiz me on this because I get very analytical about these situations because I don't know what the long term effects are of having close encounters with these bears. Are they than going? How that wasn't as big a deal as I thought? And are they going to be more aggressive to somebody else? Or are they gonna run over somebody else? Or um? You know, what is the long term effect of a bear charging a bear charging somebody? Um? And it's next encounter, like, what is the relationship if any Yeah, I mean, I I'll tell you. Like I said, I'm still most people are relatively rookies when it comes to these encounters. I would hope. And I still was struck by this initial fear realizing, oh, that was a bear charging down a ridge, come to check me out, thinking I was a cow out. It's the biggest bear I've ever seen, and that is it's as it started kind of waddle away and the and the sun was hitting it. We were then we started to talk about, you know, is it a grizzlies the black bear? See the hump, you know, see the profile. Then later saw its tracks affirmed it. It's like all you're in all of it. You're excited to be seeing it now. It's the highlight of your trip. And I think that, just me personally, that's a thing that, um, you gotta struggle with because you why, man, I'd love that was one of the coolest things that's happened to me in the woods of my entire life. But there was a moment there where I was replaying all the podcast guests I've had on here who've gotten maimed and mauled and and your revel could be, you know, damaged physically by these bears. So it's like, there's you got to figure out at what point are you willing to take that risk? And and if if you go out in the woods, know and every single time that you might run into a grizzly bearman, does how can that not change your attitude towards towards what you're up to? Damn absolutely? And I've never I've never, I have never seen a bear like that in my life. I mean, I wish I would have my phone scope and I could share what share the video? I have the track. I sent it to a couple of biology us and both of them are like, yeah, that's a big one. It's like, thanks, I appreciate that, but yeah, it's just something to know. And I will tell you the other thing that we were just talking about, um before we get going here is is the same spot, the same piece of public land. I have been posting about all the trash I find at this place, and I said, it's a nice honey hoole. It's a beautiful place. I love going there. It's right close to where I live, so I care a lot about it. I've had a lot of awesome stories to tell from just going there. A few years. There was a mattress in the middle of the road not too long ago, a dirty ass mattress that looked like I mean it was used. Why it was there? No, there's no way to know why somebody brought it there. I mean, cal do you have any phil you have any guesses as to why mattress would be in the middle of the dirt road on public land national forest? Cost fifteen bucks take it to the municipal dump. I mean, that's just too much money. I have no gases now. We also had recently a nineteen eighties stationary bike. If you want to see it, you can go to my Instagram. Was also I mean not even it was it's like right off the road, but somebody had to brink drive it all the way up there and dump it on public lands. Right over the hill from that, in a place where I've I've looked for help before is a literal camp that has if you go there you can hopefully you never do and never find my spot. But if you if you walk five ft without seeing a mountain dew can or a keystone light can or a white claw, um shout out to white Claw, please sponsor us. If you if you don't go five ft without seeing an old can, there's American flag like folding chairs up there, just thrown in in a bushes. There's old tents. There was a whole case of ensure that had somebody had uh partaken in there. I'm not sure if like the kids are drinking in her now with their mountain dew, but this is like, this is the this is the this is where this is I mean, and this is close to town. Um, I mean, it's just I don't know. I'm telling the story to say it's disgusting and and anybody that talks about loving his country and and loving its public lands, I'm glad to take it here and show you what the wrong version of this looks like. That's for sure. It's just so yeah, man, I do not. It's these people think very little of themselves. When it comes down. They must they must, yeah. They The effort to bring up a stationary bike and throw it on public land is has to be the same amount of effort it is to drive it to the dump or put it on eBay and try to sell it or do anything. It's just like intentionally lazy. Um. It's almost like throwing you know, these places is back in our faces to say, well, if you're gonna let me do whatever I want to within the law, I'll just I'll take advantage of of the good will. It's uh, it's sad to see. So if you see it out there, man clean it up, especially see it. We've talked about this before. I especially see it on shooting ranges, it seems publicly, and shooting ranges in the West are always full of garbage one way or the other. Um, that seems to be common. So we can all do a little bit of something for to help out and clean up. So, uh, that's my rant. It's over now. It's a good one. It's well worth beating into the ground man, because it's so ah, it's just so bad, you know what I'm I'm reading weekly. Um, there's just there's a lot of people outside, you know, and it's like we got a harp on this stuff because uh, you know, it's great that people are out there partaking in these resources, but they gotta understand that nobody's gonna come and clean up after him, really, so they need to do it when they're out there and be good stewards of land and figure out what that actually means, you know. Yeah, And I'll tell you, Uh, my dad and I were leaving this is actually the day we had the Grizzly beer encounter. To bring this all back together. We were driving out on the main road where the stationary bike was trashed, and there was an old man. I didn't stop. I really regretting not stopping and talking to him. There was an old man, shirtless, old man. He kind of looked like an old Ryan Callahan if you picture like a five year old, shirtless Ryan Callahan with like the perfect tan. He was out there with a big gravel shovel take going through these like little shitty campsites where people had and he was shoveling out all the ashes and the broken glass and putting him in a trash can picking up cans. He it was just like an angel come from from above to two lemon. And and the sad part is a couple days later, I'm up there and all the stuff he had done had been replaced with new garbage. Um, but there was some guy. I should have talked to him and got his name and give him a shout out, but there was he was just looked like he was up there to do exactly what we should all do every once in a while, just go clean up, you know the places where where you can go hunt and fish and hike. So I should have stopped talking to him. But he had a flowing mustache much like yours. Cow although it was great, not so horrid. I'm good for that. Okay, where we are beers on me, angels, angels in the AFA. Al right, well we're gonna let you go. Cal Um, you did you take a COVID test? Have you taken a COVID test yet? I go in tomorrow for a COVID test. Yeah, so you're feeling you're not feeling, You're feeling fine. Just precautionary. Oh yeah, you know, it's it's pretty wild where they're at right now. It's like, so these are the symptoms, and then here's everything else we could possibly think of that could be symptoms. And you know, we're sitting in this soup bowl of smoke right now, and it's like, oh, if your eyes are richy, that could be COVID. The hell of a time to have allergies. Man, if you got allergies right now, you're a persona on garrata. Stay home, don't go out sneezing on people. But no, you know, I'm feeling good. And the reality is, it's like myself, I can deal with, you know, I very comfortable with with with myself what I I do. Not like the idea of infecting somebody else, Um, just because my own selfish actions. Um, so you know, I'm being serious. So I'd like to get a clean bill of health back and then um adhered to the rest of this fourteen day quarantine and yeah, do your thing. I mean, yeah I did that. I traveled to the back forty for some filming with Mark Kenyon and then listeners will remember the episode we just did in Louisiana with the swamp people, Troy and Jacoble Andrey. After I got back from that, I kind of self quarantined and took a test and came back negative just just to be delivered. And for the reasons you said, Man, that's a time where we gotta watch what we do for the sake of others, um ultimately, So I'm glad you're doing it. And uh, I'm sure you'll be negative. Yees. The trick is staying positive and tell you know you're negative, Red. That's damn right. And and by the bye, go listen to the last episode last this past Sunday's episode of Cow's we Can Review. You gotta hear about the scrowed them frog from Lake Titty Kaka and the porn website that's raising money. By the time, by the time I got it done at that episode, I was like, boy, this is this is possibly the most racy episode of Cow's Wee Can Review without trying to be so yeah, well you'll hear it. I'm We're not gonna give you the whole thing, but just just saying Cal had to introduce a story about a screwed them frog in Lake Titty Kaka, Like how much research can you do. You're so limited because it's like we're all working on work computers. Yes, you can't. Can't go to the site and see what it said about the about the porn drive and so if you want to hear about that, they want and only place to do that is cows Weaken Review your bastards, go over there. If you're not listen to that, you're stupid. You're just stupid. It's your fault. You should feel bad about yourself, So go and do it. Brian Callahan appreciated, brother, Um, go get healthy and then Haunts of Milk and keep us updated. Man. Yes, Sarah, thanks a bunch. You guys have a good day, all right, dude, see ye see your count. That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Phil. We love around Callahan, But we have a little explaining to do, don't we, Phil. Yeah, this was as we plan for this week, was it? We built something up, didn't we We build up some suspense. And I've had lots of messages from people that were excited about today's episode for a particular reason, and that's because we said Paul Bascher, who's the founder, one of the co founders of an Animal rights group, or rather controversial and radical animal rights group anonymous for the voiceless. Uh, it was gonna be on today's show, but it turns out now we have to say that I did do the interview right. You've not heard it yet, Phil obviously not listened to the whole thing, but I have some audio from it. So we had to make a decision. We had. We've had the shittiest week here. I'm not gonna lie. Um construction in the studio, Cal's got COVID lockdown, most of our office has COVID lockdown, and um, the air outside is filled with smoke from the Western fires. And we had a really interesting, dynamic, crazy interview with Paul the Sheer that we couldn't share with you because we can't get the audio right. So we had it. We we had the option to kind of share some crappy audio with you or hold it for later, And I'm choosing to hold it for later because I want to make sure you guys hear all of it, and you can and there's no complaints, um, because I think it's an important conversation. So do you have any uh immediate thoughts from what you heard there? Phil? That we can tease people. Whenever we finally get the audio right and could send it out to the internet. I haven't I haven't listened to it yet. There's one point where you're kind of I was kind of scrubbing through it, and I think you say something like like, listen, I I applaud vegans, like you know, I I, and then he Paul, Paul asked you like, well, then why aren't you a vegan? That's funny, and then I stopped. I did not finish. I didn't listen wait for your answer, and I was like, I was like, oh man, this is good. This is gonna be good. But having my simple, my simple answer something like I enjoy my omnivory and I'm not, there's no reason for me to stop it. And I'll explain why. It's an interesting conversation. And you know, the reason why I wanted to hold it was because it starts out a little uh combative, Like you could tell Paul didn't want to answer my questions. He wasn't sure where this was going. He wasn't sure if this was some kind of gotcha interview where I was gonna try to try to make him look stupid. But over time I think both of us, I, you know, wanted to be conciliatory and wanted to tell them I do appreciate what's going on here some of it, but there's a lot of this that just doesn't make sense. So let's talk about that part. But I think by the end Um he said, thanked me for the conversation and and thanked me for my perspectives. And that was the most amazing thing that has ever happened to me in in hundred and four or some episodes of doing this show. Because what you'll find out about their organization and about their belief system is is it's it's hard to let people in when you feel like millions, billions of people are murdering millions and billions of animals um for their own, you know, personal pleasure and gain. And so when you come to come with this conversations with that worldview, it's really tough to come across the aisle and meet someone where they are, particularly me as a hunter UM. And so I felt like we got somewhere in that sense. And so I'm sorry that you're not listening to it right now. You're listening to me talk about it, But we're gonna get it figured out, phil as Uh some magic audio dust that you can sprinkle on it, right, So yeah, just just hold hold your horses. The the interview is we we we have it and we have an okay recording of it, but the something I wasn't able to make it into the studio and Ben did the interview. Uh, and then Ben was having issues with the way we normally record phone calls and skype calls and so so we have a version of it that, if if need be, will drop. But um, we're gonna try and see if we can get a better audio quality version for you all. We're gonna do it for you. So maybe next week either way, I'm headed up with the Great Clay Nukeom to go to them all my very long awaited Missouri breaks. I'll hunt this week and so you will see follow along on the social media's and then check back list for that story as well. So we got a lot coming up for you and the weeks to come, the return of Asked the Eagle and Yanni pittell Us, who's on the board. He's got an elk on the ground. We'll talk about that many many many things to do. And you also might hear about my not so a Sharp moment of when I put my pants a couple of days ago in the woods with my dad. Um, I I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to tell it. It's pretty embarrassing. I'm thirty four year old man, and I put my pants and so I'll think long and hard about how to share that experience with you. But before we do that, before we let you go play the jingle Phil, what sharp not so sharp moment? So you don't have to I threw that. I threw that out. Actually the end, we don't normally do this. At the end, Man, you caught me off guard. What are we're doing it right now? We're another episode of Not So a Sharp Moments sponsored by Work Sharp. Thank you to Work Sharp for bringing all home for us. And we're going to read you a wonderful story now in I had a lot of Nazi Sharp Moments stories that involved poop, and I'm I'm gonna leave him out. I don't want to do I don't want to go too far. But this one doesn't involved poop. It's pretty good. It's from Tom's Spring. Tom says, despite a lifetime in the outdoors. I've only been hunting since I was about twenty four years old, and I'm going on just about seven years now of hunting. My first mentors were co workers who were gracious enough to show me the ropes, first with small game at various state recreation areas here in Michigan. Next came the late Antler list deer season. Towards the end of the December, my boss's boss's boss and another senior co worker let me hunt their family property. We'll see, that's that's tom hunting your boss's boss's boss's property is trouble. That's trouble. I hope that's not where this is going. But boy, you want to you don't want to get work and hunting tangle. There's too many emotions, hey go on. By this point in the season, there weren't many people still out hunting, so one Sunday I got to enjoy another hunter's permanent blind that they were apparently no longer needing. I had never shot a deer before, and this being Southeast Michigan, I had only ever sat in blinds over bait piles. So so far, just a handful of times, sadly to no avail. My dad's old wing Master, loaded with old slugg arounds, and it was unchanged since the nineteen seventies, but no less reliable. Sometime around three pm, a doe what I would later with the benefit of experience relies, was probably a one and a half year old deer came furiously bounding towards me down the two track that led up to the side of the wooden box blind. I don't remember if I deliberated, justified, or just reacted, but I shot at just a slight downward angle where the narrow path kinked. If it reacted physically, I missed the queue. All my untrained eyes followed was its steady retreat up the rutted road around the curve and out of sight. What laid beyond the bend was a proper dirt road and a field filled with scrap and debris. I took a moment to collect myself, believing I'd screwed up because it hadn't dropped immediately in its tracks. I safetied my shotgun and stepped out into the stale, gray afternoon twilight. Approaching the rutted, depressed trail, I immediately spotted what looked like drops of blood good news. It was a lot of blood. Actually, I couldn't believe it, but a clear trail was visible leading up to the two tracks and towards the private farm road I'd followed to get here. I launched ahead, focused on the blood, on finding its source and its final stroke of color, now only imitating life on the crusted, weak old snow. When I got to the road, the trail disappeared. There were three main directions that could have gone, but a lack of obvious tracks and blood made me distrustful of the easy paths. The swam was my fear, and even worse houses. Eventually, on the far side of that swamp, at a momentary loss, I called my coworker, who owned the property, and told him what was what had happened. He said he'd be there when he could. They were at the other end of the property, helping another hunter get a deer out of a steep ravine it had expired in. By the time I saw their headlights, it was after sundown. I walked my coworker and the sun down the path to where it abruptly ended, and the three of us spent an hour and a half trying to track the trail again. It had rain and sleeated a little in the meantime, and the blood didn't look as fresh as it did in the daylight. I had to leave, but my co workers said he'd check again in the morning. I told my boss's boss's boss what happened, and he said it'd be all right. I can never. I just can never hunt with my boss's boss's boss. There's just two. I can't do it. Phil would be too many emotions going on. I don't want to shoot the wrong deer. I don't want to be made to look like an idiot. And I feel like Tom has headed that direction here because so far it's not. It's pretty sharp, everything seems fine, you know. I'm I'm wait. I'm waiting for the drop off here. Yeah, I lived about an hour away, but it just so happened. The next day, Monday, was the start of a company planning retreat held at a resort upstate. My co worker wasn't required to be there until Wednesday and lived on the expanse of property, so I didn't feel too bad about leaving the investigation in his hands, especially since there didn't seem to be a trail to follow in the first place, a mystery that would rob me of all but a few hours of sleep that night. You'll and you'll figure this out. Phil. When you have a wounded animal out in the woods and you have no idea what to do, it's desperate, especially if your new hunter like this guy. The next day passed without any word from the coworker, and then not in My stomach continued to grow. After dinner, the Big Boss arrived, coming from a day of meeting with board members. The evening presentation was midpower point, and seeing me after he stepped through the big double doors, he waved and beckoned me over, still standing in front of the only easy excit in his winter gear, a serious and dare I say, ominous look on his face. That wasn't a deer you shot? Time stood still, My mind raised fight or flight itself became a lie. I was frozen in place, unable to defend or retreat. Did I shoot a dog a person? Did the gun jerk high and overshoot the depressed spot in the past, sending me a rifle slab up into their fragile yonder before I could run away, dye my hair and change my name. My boss's Boss's boss continued, Schmidte shot a dough out of the blind Saturday evening. He backed his truck up to load it. The trail of blood drops you saw were just trips from his tailgate as he drove out on the road. I don't know how long the pause was, but the first noise I could muster was to laugh loudly and inappropriately, laugh at myself and a complete and utter relief I wouldn't have to flee to Canada. Later that season, I got my first year, and I've never stopped trying to learn all I can, spending countless hours in the woods, with many highs and lows show for it. I don't know how many people my co workers I've shared this story with, but no matter what, the relief like waking up from a bad dream, will always outweigh any embarrassment from my not so sharp moment. Tom Spring play the jingle Phil sh not so sharp moment, so you don't have to I feel like that was okay. That wasn't that was mildly not so sharp. Sure, I mean there was some shoddy detective work, um, but besides that, you know nothing to be embarrassed about. I'll give it this there. It was not a poop story, so that's that's what you'll give it. And grading is ingrading its effectiveness. Tom's story did not involve poop, even though we're talking about it now, so it kind of did. Thank you, Tom. And if you have some time time, go to work Sharp's YouTube page. They have weekly hot tips on how to keep things sharp everything in your life, from access to knives on down the line. And you're gonna get a work Sharp field sharpener for all your troubles. And again we're gonna try to keep these things clean going forward. They're not so sharp moments as we enter the fall months, certainly, all right, before we go, I gotta tell you, um, this entire time, I had a couple of white claws, but then I made a salty Gilbert. So now I'm sipping on a salty Gilbert. Phil It's the only way I can really get through this day. It's been a tough Dayyboddy. So I've got something. I've got something that might cheer you up a little bit more. Um, have you been to the office recently since before they we started construction? Uh? No, I left something on your desk, which means it probably got moved somewhere, but I just wanted to shout out Mike and Andrea, who run Freestone to Designs. It's a T shirt printing clothing printing company here in Bozeman. They sent us a couple of T shirts. Oh, they did, they did. Uh, it's pretty pretty cool design. It's got there's a bear, he's wearing sunglasses. He's floating on a tube in some sort of body of water, drinking a white cloth. Uh. It says getting clawd in Montana. Perfect. That's waiting for you somewhere in the office if it hasn't been stolen by a contractor who was punching out. Yeah. If I see like a construction guy dressed in one of these T shirts, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be upset. But I will say, you know, by the bye um White Claw probably is never gonna sponsor me. I've I've sent him a few messages, We've inquired the professional channels. It just doesn't look promising. But the fact that Element has brought their own salty recharged to the table to include with my white club makes me good about what I'm drinking. Uh, and the salty right now, if you can hear the ice of my glass. The salty, beautiful mango reach arge is just really helping me out. Phil. You know, I've been having one of those Element reacharges pretty much every day since you Well, that's good times. Well Phil, I'm gonna enjoy this cocktail. We're gonna let everybody go. But if you have your work sharp field sharpen or if you're feeling sharp, you've gotta also go to drink Element dot com, slash meat eater, drink l m nt dot com slash meat eater, check out everything Element does they support us? Please support them. We can't do this without our sponsors. We can't do this with that Element, So hit that website up. There's some pictures of me drinking stuff there and hunting. You're gonna love that. Um and again we have a website, which is amazing to me that anyone would want to put my picture on anything, let alone an internet website. So go there. Support our sponsors, particularly our friend that work sharp an Element Tea, Keep us hydrated, keep us sharp. So we'll see you next time. Phil, say bye bye goodbye. You know, because I can't go a week without doing run, oh without absolutely run absolutely draking,

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