00:00:08 Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I grew up on a Hey, everybody, welcome to episode one forty two. I always have to check with Phil for the episode number. I'm about with numbers, names, words, writing, math, geography, math, spelling, pretty much every basic human sect of knowledge. But we're joined by Phil Taylor. Of course. I always say Hi, Phil, Hello, how you doing, buddy? Doing good? How are you? I'm fine, I'm fine fine. That doesn't sound just sound positive. It's the time. It's you will. You'll know this when you start hunting. It's a time right before elk season. It's just like the run up the hunting season, and you gotta do everything normal in your life. But you also have to prepare yourself mentally, physically. You gotta get your archery game right. You gotta get your calls out, you gotta rip the calls. There's a lot of stuff to do. Man, it sounds exhausting. It fills the open space in your life. You can't. No more TV, no more movies, no more Netflix for you, no more video games help me out, Yeah, no more Star Wars, nothing, dude. It's just whatever open time you have spent thinking about this ship. So here we are. We're also joined by Remy Warren. Say what's up, Remy? What's up? Remy? What are you doing over there? Man? I actually I just got done shooting my rifles this morning because I'm headed out to Alaska to go caribou hunting, and um, yeah, I'm excited about that, but I wanted to give it one last little range range check, you know, for a lock him in the case and head out, and yeah, looking forward to it. Jason baron ground, what are you doing up there? Uh? Yep, caribou off a secret spot way north. We'll see. I mean, it's so secret, I don't even know where I'm going. I'll do you do you agree with me that, like this time before season is run up to season and then when the opening day is coming, you know this is people be hearing this one Elk season is kicking kicking off hard. But in the run up to elx Elk season, or really, I'm sure for you for guiding or anything else and preparing for trips, preparing for hunting, you just fill all the open space in your life with that stuff, and there's room for nothing else. Nothing else can can happen. Oh, absolutely. I was even just telling my wife last night. I was like thinking, I'm like getting everything ready for this trip, and then I'm like, Okay, then it's ELK and this and that, and I just thought like there's never a time where I actually feel fully prepared because there's always something to do, you know, And then I'm just for me at least, I'm trying to do everything that I need to do for the next however long now, because as soon as the season kicks off, it's just go, go, go, go go. Yeah. I mean, if you, what's your your schedule looking like this year, because I know we talked about a couple of haunts got canceled, and well, at least we can travel within the states, right yeah, yeah, exactly, so long as this COVID test comes back negative. Uh yeah, my skit. Yeah. It's like I actually haven't been I normally would have been on like all my hunts that I had planned kind of got canceled for that August part, but I did a few. I just picked up like an over the counter tag and went to California for a couple of days to bow hunt deer, just check out a new spot. Really kind of scout hunt for it's just like a real brief excursion, and then headed over to Idaho for some Idaho Montana for some antelope hunting. But my arrow hasn't found what I've been looking for yet. I don't know. I got a little picky and then that kind of bit me later on. But now I'm head to do Alaska and then after that it's just all Uh, I'll be doing some milk hunting guiding pretty much until December. So yeah, I mean what because normally, what's the most days you spent in the field in a year? Uh, the most in one year? Yeah, I was like three three days. That was back when I was a single fella. But it's still is still a lot of days that I mean, it's most of the year. It's aside from this year obviously, but between the guiding and all the other stuff like my own hunts and just being out. Um, yeah, it's it's pretty the majority of the year. For folks who don't know. You recently got married in New Zealand before COVID went well before COVID, and yeah, I I that's the question I had for you always when you were telling me about this, like, well, how are you going to live this life that you live while being married. Most people, most most men would want to know that anyway, but like, what's the house It turned out over the first year and some change. Yeah, it was actually kind of funny because everybody was like, oh, it's gonna change when you're married, and then like the first year I was married and even last year. I think I've hunted more in the last couple of years since I've been married than the few years before I was married. So I don't know. I think that that wasn't true for me. But obviously, like my wife understands this is what I do, and she goes with me a lot. Now, um helps run like our hunting camps and stuff. So so it's actually we got to spend more time together because we worked together doing that kind of stuff. And um, we're together and we're working and we're out there, so I get to spend just as many days as I did before. It's awesome. Tell me if this is too too overtold at this point, too cliche, and will move on. But you saved her life one time. I feel like I did. Yes, I feel like we should tell that briefly. I know you probably told it a million times, but give people a quick rundown of that story. Yeah, I mean she essentially got lost. Um, and this is like not we weren't actually dating at the time, but um, she had got lost, and her sister called me and was like, Daniel's lost, Like this isn't good, and um, she'd gone out for a hike and just never came back. And it was during the summer high desert she's training for like marathons and other things, and I don't know, just wasn't feeling good and decided to go out. Never came home. And they had like a black Hawk helicopters out their search and rescue and couldn't find her. And it was getting to that point where she probably wasn't going to make it another day. And I loaded up my stuff and headed out into the mountains and I ended up kind of like in the middle of the night, cutting a set of tracks and finding her, and uh, yeah, saved your life. So that was pretty cool. Yeah, it was. It was what was what like when you cut her tracks? How fartched you from when you figured this probably is hurt? Um, I don't know a long ways. Well, so I was actually, I mean it was like dark. I mean, it was just one of those weird experiences where I was literally just like praying for a sign of anything and while and I just looked down and see like some scuff marks, and I'm like, huh, this is weird. Like right where I was standing, I'm like, no way, you know, but there's deer tracks everywhere, and so I kind of followed them but lost them, like it's just like hard dirt, big mountains, you know. And then I just got like this weird feeling and this little it was like this kind of like this bench midway up in the mountain from what I could tell, I mean, it was like midnight and um. And then I then I actually went I saw it because I was trying to get a flear system, uh and so like a night vision kind of deal. And um, I saw this like light off in the distance, and I thought, oh, maybe that's the guy, um, one of the sheriff guys, because he was he was going to get it in contact me, but I didn't have any service or anything, and I forgot my satellite messenger. So I started walking that way and it turned out to just be like some random people at camping or like backpacking and um, and then and then I just like my brother and friend Joe were out there and I UM, I radioed them and they were like looking kind of where because they had dogs earlier, and they were kind of like looking around where the dogs were. And I just kind of was like, I'm just going just wherever I feel like I want to go. And I radioed them and was like, maybe we should kind of regroup and figure out like the glassing first thing in the morning or I don't know. And I was like, but I'm gonna go back and check this spot out that I just said, like, I don't know, this weird feeling, so and that's kind of where I saw those tracks. And then I went back to that spot about I don't know, it's little ways away from where I was. And then I was like I just literally just like sitting there yelled out, Danielle, is Remy if you can hear me, I'm not leaving until I find you like a few seconds later here Remy. And then and then nothing and I was like, oh, ship, let's just make that up or no, that was real and and yeah, and then I ended up like I only heard her. I like radio my brethren said, Hey, I heard her, like, get medical team up here now, Like I don't know if that's and I'm turning my radio off because if that's the last, if I only hear one more time, you know, I don't want the radio being going off and then miss it because it was so faint and then it was like this big basin, so I couldn't really actually tell where the sound was coming from. I thought it was like across because there was like some cliffs across that I remember before it got dark. Um, and uh, just like from a long ways away, because I was just looking up into this valley from the bottom, and so then I was thinking maybe she was like in those cliffs or whatever. And then I started like running towards that direction and then heard her one more time and found her, and she's like three hundred yards below me at that second point. What was she? What had she done when she just got lost and went to and was trying to get down or got cliffed out or what had happened? Yeah, I mean it's kind of like foggy because I don't I mean, she essentially probably got like some form of pete stroke for sure, like made your massive dehydration. I think she like woke up and had no clue where she was man man, and like didn't and and didn't know like which way to go. So it was kind of like it was actually good that she stayed put, you know, like um, and she she was like stayed put. She kind of like was in like this tried to find some shade. She did hear the helicopter go over a couple of times, but it never saw her. Um. And then and then they had to actually canceled the like the helicopter had to go back and it was done because it had used up all its time and had to go back. So um, yeah, and they actually weren't even sure that she was there. It's a really weird scenario because they actually had like reports of like a vehicle with Mexico plates leaving, and they're kind of like following this assumption that maybe she had gone back, like because the dogs like went up, followed the rocks and then came back to the truck. So there's like this assumption that she walked up, walked back and then was taken. So it was just like a really mess the scenario. It was like a lot of a lot of fear going on, you know, like a lot of like thoughts of worst case scenarios. Yeah. I shouldn't laugh at that, but yeah, I mean, do you guys talk about it now? Because she was you guys weren't dating then, it was some time right before you started dating after that? Um yeah, that well, like we had dated prior to that and then um yeah, and then that kind of got us back together. I mean it was like when I when you save someone's life, they're kind you're kind of like, yeah, now you should go out with me? Can I take you out to dinner? Now? She pretty delirious when you found her, Like did she know what was going on? Or was she do you think she's no? No, she yea, she had no clue. I mean, like I you know, I like I ran up and was like, oh, you know, like like I looked at her and I was just like, yeah, I was. She just seems so confused, like I think she thought she was hallucinating, because I'm sure she had been like hallucinating while she was out there. Anyways. You know, it's like major dehydration cold because she just went like for kind of like for like had no supplies nothing. Probably it was just like not a smart move, but um and she and she wasn't feeling good anyways, so she was like, oh, this might make me feel better, like a nice run through the desert and um through the wilderness and uh. And it was like she had no water, no like warm clothes and that in the high desert it'll be like a hundred degrees in the middle of the day and then like freezing at night. And it was that time of year where it was like that or it is just super hot in the daytime and then thirty two degrees thirty five degrees at night, so huge temperature swings. Um. And I think that, like you know, that obviously played a factor. I mean she real she was like super cold at night, super hot in the middle of the day, super thirsty. Um. Yeah. But yeah, I was like do you know who? I was like, do you what's your name? Like again, She's like I don't know, Like do you know who I am? I think so I don't know, Like she's like super confused for sure. Yeah, Well I'm glad. I'm glad that you found her. And now, uh, she is a very understanding wife of a of a traveling hunter and so and she I met her, She's awesome. It's that's what one hell of a story. Although your life kind of has a lot of those types of stories in it, some life saving stories, some harrowing stories, some crazy things. Um, I guess to live wild hunt hard fits right. Yeah, you know you're like, well, when you spend three hundred days a year in the field, you're gonna see some rain. Something's gonna happen. Like, yeah, you're just like because it's no two days are the same out there. It's like that's what I love about it. But like you just see some crazy stuff like in nature, just wild things happen, or you're just in like interesting scenarios where yeah, crazy things can happen. I mean, I don't know, do you feel like when you when you think about that that time, and I'm sure other things that have happened to you, do you think about, you know, what are the things that you have to do to keep yourself prepared out there? Because that's when I'm thinking about what she did. You know, as you said, not the smartest thing to do, and each of us, I mean I'm up in the mountains all the time, checking trail cameras. Sometimes I'm prepared. Other times I'm just right after work we're running out there, and that could be the time where something goes down, you fall down a cliff, whatever. There's a lot of scenarios out there, So you what's your do you have like the basic preparedness stuff people have to do every time they throw a pack on. I don't know. I mean, yeah, you should definitely have like water. Um, I think if it's like desert hot, if it's hot, the water things huge. I mean I've been like fairly dehydrated. Even just a couple of weeks ago. I was like hunting and it's like, all right, I hiked down into this valley and there's water, and I've had this route and ever been there, planned this route out, Like Okay, I'm gonna go up there. I could see like some wet spots, so I'm like sweet, and you know, do this big three ft climb and ten miles later and there's no water and I'm like a ship, you know, like how do I get out of here? Um? Like that's that's especially when it's like a hundred degrees out. That's that's key, is like having having the basic essentials you need to survive, and mostly that means some form of like water first, and then you know, possibly having like an idea of how to build or have a shelter, like if if the environment gets pretty crazy. At least having those skills. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have a lot of stuff with you, but it just means that like you have those skills or like that confidence to be able to find the things that you need or like have the things that you need with you. So this is Phil, this is the time when you need to ask some questions, man, because Remy, here's a man who's done it, most of all of it, and Phils is about the step out on this first hunting journey at some point in the next five to ten years. So, yeah, what's what's going on? Phil? Questions for Remy? Uh, you know you it's it's it's tough because you you try to sell me on this whole hunting thing, but how fun it is and fulfilling. And then you bring on people like like Remy who just have endless tales of near death experiences on like couples like who say that it's like strain on their marriage and all this stuff, and you're like, it's great, You're gonna love it. You won't have any free time. Yeah, you might die and you could get a divorce. What a better way to live your life. It's better. It's marketly better than playing video games. Yeah, which is a very safe thing to do. I love it. Cozy, cozy, cozy, unless you're doing it while driving. Um, but anyway, it's it's Elk season now. If you Remy over there cutting the Distance podcast, which is the thing that you need if you want to learn anything about the outdoors, but particularly Elk at this time of year. Well, that's the thing. I don't have a whole lot of questions for Remy because I've listened to every episode of You Know What you need to Know? Um. Bill even gets the behind the scenes stuff that like the extra stuff, that's right. I get the outtakes. I've heard more hurt than anybody, stuff like oh damn, damn, I say that again. I'm gonna say that again. But we've heard like how fifty some stories now, um, a bunch of Elk content. I was the other day in the in the truck in a parking lot, waiting for my son to get out of doctors appointment. Blown on the alcohol, listening to cutting the distance, you know, thinking about as you say, Remy all the time, like this is kind of not fair. You know, ten to twenty years ago, there wasn't this information accessible. You couldn't download Remy warrants, ELK Hunting Brain, and so it's it's kind of are you giving away too many secrets? You feel like I am absolutely giving away too many secrets? Is scaring the crap out of maybe because I'm now I'm thinking, like, is the way that I hunt work because other people aren't doing it? And I think that that's the case. And now I'm like running into people that are like hunting the way that I'm hunting, or have listened or a successful especially this spring man, like the whole Like I talked to so many people that were like hunt maybe not even the same areas that I do, but just like, oh yeah, I had success doing like so many people that had struggled with bear hunting and then use those those tips that I gave the calling and the other stuff and have been successful. And I'm like, man, I think I might be like shooting myself in the foot here. I had a good thing going. Now everybody knows what I know. You know, have you ever run into anybody in the back country that got there from your tips? That would be the ultimate, would be the worst. Oh yeah, for sure. I have. Yeah, somebody's like, hey man, I love your podcast. I'm only here because you told me to look in high mountain basins. Yeah, yeah, exactly that. That has happened, like I would say, at least a dozen times. Last year was yeah, yeah, last year was pretty funny that well. Yeah, like this this one guy was just like, I actually um was coming back down and this guy like saw me and he was just like, first he's just like looking at me, and he's like, that's so weird. I was like, what's that. He was like, well, I mean I was just following your tips and then I kind of found and this is a spot that i'd never been either, so it was just like a new area. He's like, I was following your tips and then you know, and I picked this spot and then I saw you here and I was just like, I wasn't sure. He's like, okay, we gotta get picture, you know, like a selfie in the pictures, and I'm like, oh great, now this spot is gonna be posted all over the place. I'm pretty careful about keeping like backgrounds out of things, but I thought it was just hilarious because it was like a new spot place that I had never hunted. And then here comes this guy that had just listened. He was like, literally, I was just listening to this and I listened to that episode three times. It was on the map, the um reading the map, which one was yeah, exactly, and uh like scouting and picking areas, and he's like, he essentially did the same thing I did. We came to the same conclusion and then ended up in the same freaking spot. Like, what are the odds of that? You're like appears where for everyone they're like, Remy Warren, he appears out of out of the trees. When I listen to your podcast, if I say Remy Warren three times into the mirror, he'll appear. And then I just appear. Yeah, if you're glassing and you go Remy Warrend, Remy Warren, Remy Warrent, I just show up and start glassing. You should if you see somebody. If you see somebody and they say, oh man, I know your podcast, be like, yes, I've traveled here to give you one last tip and then say it and then just disappear into the trees, like the Hunting Highlander. Yes, the hunting Remy Warren, the Hunting Highlander disappearing on your on X maps. Maybe yeah, maybe we should get with on X and have a thing where they can follow you around and try to find you, kind of like a treasure hunt. I feel like I feel like they already do that. That's true, that's true, that's true. Hunting media is the ultimate oxymoron. So, Remy, we're in elk season now, we're in it. That opened the fifth here people who listen to this on the eighth, ninth something like that, Um, we gotta give people just I know your your last podcast. We gave people the essential tips from cutting the distance. But for a lot of people to listen to this will be going on their first l con or or you know, one of their first and we know that it's like a ten percent success rate for do it yourself public land elk hunters out there. One out of ten people kill a bull, or you kill a bull one out of every ten years you have a tag. And that's uh, that's a sketchy idea. And so I want I want you to kind of give give a few things, maybe already secrets you've already put out there, so we don't drain your well of secrets, but some things that you know that will get people at least in the in the right area when they're trying to kill a bull. Yeah, I mean September I think is the best time to kill a bull because it's it's the one time that elk are making a lot of noise their vocal they're rutting. It's just like anything else you hunt white tails during the rut, they're the most active. So there's a lot of different techniques you can use. It doesn't matter how like how experienced you are with elk hunting, just there because there's so many different techniques you can use that might even be similar to what you already use. But I think the key to real, like really being successful is just understanding elk behaviors. And once you understand that, or get a basic idea of elk behaviors, then you can kind of capitalize and key in. So UM there's things A couple of the things that I was talking about, like wallow hunting and focusing on wallows, how to find wallows. Um that's a great way for people just getting into it. That's like, hey, maybe you have only tree stand hunted. I mean, you can take those same tree stand tactics and use those over a wallow over a water hole. You know, understanding what a wallow is and how which one is going to be productive, and mostly the productive one is going to be based on smell, Like, uh, a wall of that stinks real bad as a good perfume station for these elk during the rut. So that's that's a great place to start. Yeah, I mean I've I've personally had a man I've come across. I had four while as I was gonna hang cameras on this year, and each one of them was dry. It just felt like somebody was messing with me out there. So how do you I mean finding wallows? If you go to a place like I was in where there's a there's a spring fed creek, Well there's just like a spring that that was creating two wallows and it was dry this year, but there's a creek below, and I thought, I'll just go walk this creek. I'm gonna find a wallow or something on this creek where it pulls up at least where I know they're coming to water. Never did find and I know it's there somewhere, But I mean, is there any other tactic other than those types of things to find them. Yeah, I mean looking for those repair arean areas is good. But also like in the like where those creeks come down, if there's like a flowing side creek that starts maybe like midway down the mountain, following that area up to where like looking on your map on the TOEPO and finding like a little flat spot where it flattens out below a steep area, so like a steep hill in a basin or just a draw and then it kind of has this flat spot and then goes into a creek. Generally the water will settle in pool there. That's a good spot to look um And and like you did following the creeks, I mean, it's not an exact science. You do have to do some groundproofing for it. So maybe that area just doesn't particularly have a lot um. Maybe start looking on some of the more shaded side, like if it's a more drought type year, look in some of those areas that might be a little bit more shaded um or like maybe just another draw over. You know, maybe the elker in that area, but they're gonna wallow one draw on either side, so you know, exploring a little bit is good. But the nice thing about September is, hey, you don't know where the walls are, you don't know where the elk are at well, that you can just make noise and they should make noise back and tell you where they are. So that's the key of like, that's why archery hunting, archery season, September season, I think is the best time to chase elk. I mean, actually, you know, if I was to think about it, um, people are like, oh, bow hunting is hard. I think that if if I was between a general archery season for elk or a general rifle season for elk, I would choose the archery season. I think it's a lot easier to hunt elk with a bow because they are it is during the rut, and they are vocal and they're easier to find, whereas once you get later in the season there was later rifle seasons. Man, it can be all you can. It can be really hard to even find elk. So it's really nice to have that option to bugle to call and to get elk to tell you where the heck they are? Yeah, yeah, and especially when you know we have shoulder seasons here in Montana, but even in La season, man, a lot of these altre down in private land and it can be a struggle. You can be you can find yourself glass and all the elky one you know, you know, kind of agg field standing under the pivot um in the snow. And so that's that's a huge one. Do you do you bring a call? Do you have a call with you? Oh? Yeah, I got some calls sitting here. So do you like the basic I think obviously the more productive call out there, the call that you have to really perfect to get good at. This is a is a bugle. But you know, first I started like, can I put up? But can I put a call in my mouth? Can I put a die from call in my mouth? And start with making the sounds of a cow, and then without the bugle tube, try to make the sounds, you know, the the elevation of sounds with the tongue pressure that I need to make that kind of the bugle sound before I put you know, before I try to bring life to it and put the bugle tube to my mouth? Is that is that a good way? Is that what your suggestion to learn or is there you know, the tips to picking something up with the first time and kind of figuring it out. Yeah, I think like if you're I mean, I use diaphragm type calls for elk calling just because they're so versatile and you can make so many different sounds. Um, but you know, I mean, there's all different kinds there's exposed, Like, Um, I can't even remember I used so many different ones over the years, and they've changed so much. I think the first thing to do would be just like kind of understand and master those cow calls, because you'll you'll get the idea of like changing the pressure and and getting those like good tones. So it's really good idea to just try to get like a few different cow calls going and then you can kind of work into a bugle. And I've said this before and I even said it on my podcast. Um, the how good you are with the bugle like it does make a difference in some ways, but it's more so how good you sound than like knowing that when to call and kind of the movements and the type of actions you should take. So there's a lot more to just the behavior than the actual sound itself and that and that goes a long ways. Like, especially when you're starting out, I think a lot of people are just they're like, I don't know how to call I'm not really good at it, uh, and are a little bit timid with it. But it doesn't necessarily if you don't know what sound to make, listen to the elk, just copy what you hear or to the best of your ability, and you'll probably do all right. Yeah, that's one thing that you said in your podcast that that I wanted to make sure you shared. I'm glad you said that was was you know there's nothing yes, you sure, I'm sure you can make some some terrible noises with the bugle tube scare all the elk in the in the drainage, but there's you're never gonna learn that interaction unless you have it, and so go for it. Have it exactly. Yeah. And I think part of it too is like, um, I think one key to calling elk because people think like, oh, bugle, they bugle, and they're like they get this bull bugling across the canyon and they're like the bull never came in. It's like, yeah, of course it didn't. Like that's not what elk do. What elk do is they like make noise, and most most of the bugles, like just understanding that a lot of the bugles aren't for another bull, it's for the cows that are there. So they're displaying for the cows. They aren't necessarily always like trying to talk to the other bulls. And so just because one elk bugles and another elk bugles, doesn't mean that that elk's going to come over to the bugle. And probably he probably has cows and he's expecting other elk to try to come in and steal those cows, and he's not going to leave those cows. So what One of the ways that I've found a lot of success bugling is like going into the title of the podcast, cutting the distance between yourself and the bull. When that bull bugle is just getting closer and closer and closer till you get to a point where you aren't going to spook him, but he really doesn't have as much of a choice than to come in because you're already kind of in the herd. Yeah, yeah, and I've I've I've figured that out too, you know, And for everybody listening that's an East Coaster or you know, don't you're you don't live in a place where elk accessible and you can hunt them like this is. We had I'll tell you this the quick anecdote. We had a guy in here that was coming on the Mediator podcast. It was from Austin. He had a couple of of his team members, production team members with him and the young guys from the city. Yanni blew an alcohol when I was blowing on smell calls. And the look that these guys had they had never heard somebody blow an alcohol before. They likely never heard an elk bugle before, or seen an elk before. The look they had on their faces when we made those noises and showed them what an elk was was unbelievable. It's like a little a little kid discovering dinosaurs for the first time. And so yeah, just to get out there, just to go out there and dive into it is is enough. You know, if if you've never done it before, is that that's enough? It should be enough. It was enough for me when I first really went hard and learning the craft of hunting elk and so it can be I think, UM, just an amazing thing to do. And probably you know you have how many years you've been doing it now? Probably? Uh? Yeah, I mean I don't know, I've yeah, at least us, I don't know. We need Phil to do Matheos checked out. Yeah, I mean, I mean I have been yeah, chasing elk for like twenty three years or something. That's never I'm and it never gets old. I can't imagine you're you're jaded to any part of it. Hope hopefully you're not. No, I mean I think I And here's the other thing. I mean, I would consider myself an elk expert of sorts. I mean I've spent since I was eighteen years of the season an elk expert, an elk hunting expert. I mean, I'm a professional elk hunter, like like take, I've taken people hunting every day. I've spent every day of the Montana season, plus extra seasons you know, in other places hunting elk um since I can, since I was eighteen years old. But even then, there's things I don't know about elk. So it's not that you know, you're you're constantly learning you're constantly you'll get into a scenario and you'll say, most of the scenarios end up being similar, but you'll get into scenarios that are a little bit different and you go and you'll learn something and you'll go, oh, that's a new way to trick them. Oh, that's um okay, I didn't really realize that they were going to do that. And over the years, you know, you just keep getting better and better and learning more and more and having more situations scenarios. And that's the cool thing about why I say understanding elk behaviors, because the more time you spend with them, the more you understand them, and the easier it is to hunt them and take them. It's like the same, the same ten percent of the people shoot nine of the elk. Those guys are the people that understand elk behavior and really just like how how to get close and how to bring them in. Yeah, and and and that whole process is what interests me to that intellectual property of knowing where the elk, you know, spend a couple of years and moving to Montana, my my idea was like, nobody, nobody tell me where you go. I'm gonna find in my spots. I'm gonna get that intellectual property. Um, I'm a new guy. I'm gonna I want the new GUI process. I want to find spots, find elk, understand them, understand what they're doing in July and August, September, October, and then five years in under you know, have a full understanding of the landscape of the animal, of the habits out of the calling. That's as fun as anything because then it starts to become a craft rather than just the thing you go doing the weekends. I think that there's certain things that kind of break down that learning curve and stuff like podcasts. You know, there's a lot of more information out there. I just know like when I was getting into it or or starting out, I would watch elk hunting videos and it was it was nothing like the experiences that I had calling out because because most of those videos are done on really like limited high I'm not I'm not necessarily high fence places, but just like very unhunted, like premier tag kind of places where they call and elks seemed to just run in and it's like man on public land in general, areas that just did not seem to be the case, there's a lot of miles that didn't get shown in between, a lot of struggle in between, but understanding like you know, you might do something and nobody ever talked about you blow an elk calling and elk runs away and you think like, oh, I did something wrong, and that's not actually the case. It's just understanding that behavior of like, that's what elk do when they're calling toward each other, and you might have to put in some legwork and catch back up and keep dogging them and do other things to get those elk to commit to your to your call, into your the whole thing that you're creating. And just understanding that is huge. Do you ever look back, because I do look back at the dichotomy of when you and I were coming up and what was available. You know, I think about like Larry guys like Larry D. Jones and and Will Primost and all these people that are that were making videos and making you know, I had tapes and then dv d s, and it was magazines and stuff growing up, and a lot of that stuff was it all ended in in a kill, all of it, um, you know, whether it was a white tailor an elk or whatever. The videos were like ten ten kills in an hour, and it was all this kind of that's how it was set up, and it was meant to obviously sell calls or sell whatever product was going on. UM. But that's how it was. And it's only been I don't know how recently that we started to experience like, hey, here's all the things that go on in between and solo hunter the show that you do UM is important for that because you gotta show all of the struggle and you set up a camera by yourself and you show killing an animals. So there's a lot there. But do you ever think about coming coming up and what wasn't there and maybe how that made made you be an expert you had to be because you had to go and do it yourself. There wasn't There wasn't remy warrants, cutting the distance to listen to. Yeah, I mean that that was the thing is you you'd only see that like successful interaction and when it happens, you're like, yep, it seems easy, but it doesn't show all the stuff in between to get to that point. And for me, it's like, you know, I think when people go out and hunt with me, they're like, Okay, I'm pretty I'm really good at getting ilk into bow range. But what they didn't understand, or most of them are surprised, it's like, wow, there's a lot of there's a lot of hard work to get to that point. And if you can the you know, it's like you gotta be in shape, you gotta be you know, you gotta keep after it. It's it's long days. It's like, but when it happens, damn is it good? You know, if you just and if you just take that highlight reel of the when it's damn it's good, you're like, wow, that's easy. But it doesn't show all the stuff in between. And I think that that's important is just because I think, you know, if your first time going out, and it would be super easy to get discouraged when you think I should be blowing this alcohol and milk should be running in and not that that doesn't happen, like I've had that happen. I mean, it's just random. But for the most part, those kind of scenarios are few and far between. It's mostly you're you have to play this game, and that game involves you know, a lot of different tricks, and all those different tricks kind of come with experience or knowledge, and I think that it's awesome to be able to share that knowledge. So you could go out for the first time now and understand have a better picture, I believe, of what it takes to be successful, not just understanding calling, but understanding why you do it, how you do it, when you can do it, um, and then maybe some of the steps in between. And if you think of it as a series of lessons that that elk is teaching you, and that's that's how I look at It's like the obstacles of the way, and that elk is often the obstacle, and you're that's every time you get an interaction and something doesn't go right, or you get winded, or he rounds up his cows and goes over the hill, that's a lesson I need to learn. And you've got to kind of have that intuition to know what what is the lesson? What did not do right? Or what did I do right? Um? And so that's where I think your tip. You need to explain a little bit about it. But we're gonna have it on on the cutting of dis and so let's not we already have tall about it, or that your lesson for bulldogging is I think one of the better elk hunting lessons there is to learn because it seems like in in real time that you did something wrong, but really um in your explanation of bulldog and you did something right, but now you've got to capitalize on on what's going on. Yeah, I mean, I think I've heard it so many times and maybe like me saying these tips might actually make it not true in the future. Too many people do it. But you know, like uh, you know, I mean I remember reading like articles from guys they would say, you know, elk er call shy or um, you know, you don't want a bugle to mean and too big because then the elk go away. And I'm like, that's talk from people that haven't done a lot of elk cunning, you know, because if you, if you understand elk, you realize like that's what elk do. It hasn't you gotta like you gotta take yourself and stop being so I get us like human centric, egocentric and thinking that every time you do something it's because you're a human, Like if that elk thinks you're an elk, which is what you wanted to do. It's going to respond to you like you're an elk, and what elk do to other elk is they're going to round up their cows and go away. That means you did something right. That means that that elk thinks that that like something real is going on, and that doesn't necessarily mean that that's a bad thing. Like, there's definitely ways that you can capitalize on that just takes a little bit of leg work and some some you know, maybe some fast moving and some more calling, and you can make turn that scenario into success. I would say of the elk that I kill or get hunters on, it's that kind of moving cat and mouse game where they're going, you're going, and you're trying to get that bowl to get piste off enough to make to come fight you. Philip, We're gonna engage you now in this conversation. You listen to all Ramy's elk podcasts, Yes, tell it. What do you remember about bulldogging? Do you remember anything at all? It's been a year since he's Yeah, here's here's the thing. I as a as a person who knows absolutely nothing about hunting, essentially, like Remy's podcast is A is A is a tough entry point. I feel like you need to have at least like a one oh one understanding of what's going on. And then Renny's show is like incredibly helpful, and I don't even have that one on one understanding. So yeah, where like Remy has guys he sees in the woods that are that are saying you gave me the tips to get here, I see people in like the liquor store that are buying white Claw and they're like, hey, hey, thanks to you, I got here. Thanks man, selfie appreciating selfie. Yeah, that's how it works. That's that's the answer. Is No, I know, I just want to engage you in this conversation. I appreciate you thinking about me. Then, yeah, thinking about you. You're right there. I mean I'm looking at you, looking good. M Remy, you want to try to do a little ELK call run through here? Maybe for Phil, Phil you can kind of ask questions as a new hunter, Remy kind of take him through the learning if you're a brand new fellow. Yeah it sounds good. Okay, So we's start with caw calls. Um, so just explain to Phil, and Phil please ask questions about if your first time picking up a diaphragm putting it in your mouth, and then here here goes the lesson Feiel. Get ready, Okay, so you got you got your cow call. We're gonna start with the cow call. So the cow call is basically just the sounds that really obviously cows make, but they make a lot of different sounds, so they got there. The basic sound they make would be like a mew, and it's just a sound that's just with my voice. Like, if you can make that sound with your voice, you can pretty much make that sound with a call, I believe because a lot of it. A lot of people think like, oh, the call makes the sound, but it's the pressure and the way that you make that call that makes it better. So I I mean, the first thing I would do is just practice making those towns, those tones and sounds with your voice, because you'll know when to make those tone changes. So like, uh, basic MEU, I'm just gonna do it with my voice. Yeah, yeah, And then I'll use a call here. I don't know if it'll pick it up right or what might get loud. I'll try to do it quiet. Ye o, just me you meu mew, and you can talk back and forth with those cow calls. Cows make a lot of different sounds. I think one of the most effective cow calls would be more of like an estrus wine, especially later in season. That can be I've heard it so many different ways. I mean, you talk about a cow call, and people name these cow calls, and you expect it to be a certain way. But you get into a herd of elk and listen, you'll hear about five different sounds that you're like, okay, just start making some of those sounds. The only one you don't want to do is like a bark, where it's like a that one is a little dangerous, But outside of that, how is that dangerous? Just out of curiosity? That's just an alert, Like it's it's like danger. It's one cow like when you get busted. If you hear that sound, you know you did something. It's like a high pitched just when they're barking at you. So it's like literally like a high pitched dog bark um, And that's like alerting all the other elk, like pay attention. There's some danger around, but for the most part, you know cow's wheel talk back and forth, and it can be Cow calls can be a great way to locate elk because you might be able to get those cows to make noise, especially if it's like hot, they aren't making like the bulls aren't really bugling. You can use those cow calls to kind of identify where the elk might be. I was, I was out in the office trying to find a cow call, but I couldn't find one. I die. I'd say that the best place to look as Yannie's desk. You did, okay, I like Steve's desk. Desk nothing okay. So I was gonna see if Phil could try this for the first time. But we'll have to save that for another time. Oh yeah, that's one thing I've never I I I have turkey calls. I have cow calls, just it's like sitting in my car because Yanni's like here, take these feeling. It throws me a handful, and I've never once tried to use any You got them in your car right end of call. I think I think I only have turkey calls in my car. I've got a cow call at home. Though turkey calls work, they're they're all the same. Let's yeah, it's really latex and that's it. That's all it really matters. Yeah, I would say if you're getting started though, um, there's like pick up a cow call. There's different kinds of cow calls you can get. Um, I would say, like start with maybe like I've got this open read one here. I haven't used it in a long time, but I just grabbed it because I forged to be good to talk about um. So like these open read ones, you kind of put your teeth on them. I'll try it right now and just yeah. So it's just biting down and adding pressure and blowing over this read. There's other kinds they call them like bite calls, where those are really easy to use to you just bite the call and then blow and make that you sound um through the call. And then there's even push button calls. Those are I mean, they get a lot of hoochie mama, hoochie mama. The other one, I don't even what's there's another one. It was called like the Budlow or something like that. The button one. UM, I think it was either like a Carlton call or something like that. That one was I thought that one was a lot better. It made a few more different sounds, and even when I was guiding for a long time, I mean I would have one of those in my pocket so I could do like a diaphragm call, like a bite call, and then that my pocket where it sounds like different call Elk in different directions, like creating kind of this party or this illusion of like multiple cows, and you can do that by yourself. It's like the you know, like the one man band, you know, the guy that's got the harmonica on the thing with the most fun I've ever had working on your podcast was the Elk Party episode that just came out a couple of weeks ago. I noticed, I was like, okay, actually I thought it was pretty funny because there's like this part where I'm in my office and I was like, you cannot tell, but I was literally sprinting back and forth, like jumping out in like my office is just like antlers and things all over the ground, and I'm just like jumping over ship and falling like ran into a stool. You know, Like what am I doing? Just living? Man? That's you're giving people the real the realness, realness, all right, What's like I was off looking for diaphragms, But did you give a few uh like entry level beyond the just like diaphragm calls that you're gonna do for cows. Um, let's hear a couple of them. Oh yeah, I mean here, I'll just use this. These open read ones are really good to do, like like wine sound, because you can go like up and down like high low. I like to think of like the estra swine almost like a bugle with a kind of like a if a coward a bugle. And I mean I've heard these like calls just in crazy like sometimes they're really aggressive or or even like cow two cows fighting. It just sounds like this. It's a weird. It's a weird sound. But um, yeah, you can do that. I'll do that with this one. I'll give it a try and use it a while, try it so those like longer sounds would be more like that that maybe a cow coming into heat. But I've even heard like a sound similar like to that estras call of that lead cow when she's like the one that's in charge that they're paying attention to. Or that's a really good way to get other cows to kind of respond that long drawn out cow sound. Um. You know even with these some of these open read calls to if you're like new to calling and you just they're having trouble with the diaphragm calls. Mean you can even rip a couple of bugles with these things, like it's good enough, bugle, I might. I'm gonna try it. I don't actually know if it'll work, but um van yeah, take the rubber band off. The hard part is my microphones by my head and the end of the bugle tubes like one of my well you prepare. One of my favorite things is the names of alcohols. I got an open read call called the easy Estress by Phelps. Yeah. I just love the names. I want a couple of my company just to make the names of the calls, just naming them. Yeah, I've got I've got some calls coming out that that have some good names. If I should have known, you should let me help you, man, I'm uh um yeah, so let's hear it. I don't know, but oh yeah, I was. I'll try this. This is um, this is just with the open reads. We'll see if this works. Although I might take me a one or two, but it wasn't too bad. That's better than that was just with an open read call, like just biting down. Man, I feel like that's Michael Jordan, like shooting had half cork and I'll see if this goes in it like oh yeah interesting sweet Uh yeah no. But I'm just saying, like, you can, you can. You don't have to be so wrapped up on when you're getting started the call or whatever. I used um for a long time, calls that I think people like maybe would say look down on, but I you know, you just you get or like the you know, the pros or like that's a that's a over the whatever top latex style call, not a diaphragm call. You can't call with that and be like yeah, okay, here's a photo album of all the call It's like, don't it doesn't really matter. I mean, you know later Actually, when I was guiding, I would always start out with my diaphragm calls and everything. That's what I use. But sometimes, uh, you know, by by week five or six or as you start to get in the rifle season, your mouth just gets so tired. Um. I just like switch up the different types of calls just to keep from getting like I'd have callouses on the roof of my mouth from calling all day every day. You know. Um, but you you know, like I said, just just start practicing and just understand. Get that bugle down, get some and then understand those cow calls. And maybe you you know, maybe you aren't good at calling, aren't feeling confident calling. Well, look for scenarios where you the kind of calling you can do. We'll call in a bowl. So let's say you're out there, it's the first time l hunting, and you're glassing, like do a lot of glassing, and you spot a bowl that's by himself, and you have got these cow calls down, You've got some maybe you've got a push button call in your pocket, you've got an open read call, you've got a bike call, and you can make that sound you know, Okay, sweet, you will call that bull in like that's that's a pretty good scenario where you can where you can call that bull in. You know, watch him, see where he goes, if he's moving, go and cut him off, getting ahead of where you think he's gonna go. Get the wind right and start throwing out some cow sounds, and that bowl will probably come in quiet, he'll come check things out and he'll probably be within range. And that's like just understanding once if I see that scenario and I'm hunting him, like okay, yep, that bull is a dead bull, and just looking for those scenarios that kind of match the type of hunting or maybe the techniques that you know how to do, and then go for those scenarios. I personally love to bugle in bulls, so I like to get bulls fired up. I like that whole exchange of bugling. I mean there's times where I'll be bugling and I'll get a bull of respond, but he just doesn't seem like he's gonna get fired up, or he kind of quiets down. Instead of wasting a lot of time on that bowl, I might just go somewhere else, might just start looking for a old that wants to play with the type of tactics that I want to employ that day. And that's another thing to think about. Yeah, I love that, And there's and I'll tell you I'm manning remy at the mediator dot com quite often that that stuff comes to my inbox and I read a lot of it. I love to do that just because I like to hear what's on people's mind, and um, I think that comes I know you know this, but that comes in quite a lot. Um. Well, you know how Okay, I'm going on a d I Y L hunt in the public lands. I've got a whole chunk of national forest. Maybe it's a million acres, maybe it's a hundred thousand, doesn't even matter, big chunky national forest to run through. When you're going into something like that, say you're going in by yourself, you've got seven days to hunt. How many spots have you looked at on on X, how many how many you know basins or how many drainages have you looked at? Because I've heard I've heard others say like I always have at least four spots that I'm gonna check out that I know that I can get to within you know, half a day's time or whatever. But it's interesting to know, like what's the you know, what's the layout of a hunt? Um? Or are you just kind of popping from place to place if something doesn't work out? Uh? Yeah, I mean I don't. I don't spend a lot of time if I don't find what I like. I think some people might spend more time. I get like, I'm just like, yeah, I'll just go until I find what I'm looking for. Um. I mean, I have a lot of spots that I like to check out, So it just depends. I mean, if I like a new area, like I've got an ELK tag in an area I've never been this year, Um, and I'm gonna actually most of my hunts, I like to try to go to new spots now and just try try new new places. And I'll probably have a dozen places that I want to check out or something, you know, I mean, and I rank them. You know, the first one I probably run into El Cat. But if I if I get down to number twelve, right, yeah, exactly. Um, But you know you're you're kind of like I might just you know, kind of be mobile the first couple of days and and really just kind of check check things out, get a lay of the land. I understand like, Okay, this has what I'm looking for, This doesn't have what I'm looking for. You might get in somewhere and say this isn't this isn't really what I was looking for. Or you get somewhere and there's eight trucks there and you're like not next, Like I'm already that already, Just I just write that off, you know, Um, I'd rather go to it, maybe a less productive place with fewer people and where I can work a bowl and have to mess with other people calling. And some places you go and you just can't even get away from that, so you just kind of gotta you gotta bite the bullet and say whatever. Now that's what I thought I've had when I've had people say, hey, let me know when you're going to this spot, if we both kind of stumbled on the same spot, or if we if we're sharing a spot, like let me know when you're gonna be in there. So, man, I'm not there's so many places for me to go, like I've never if if you're gonna be in there, let me know, I just won't go. I'm not gonna fight anybody or a spot. It's not worth it. It's just a public land. Especially like the philosophy, people kind of take ownership of a spot or an area and be like, man, I'm not if you're going in there, go I'll go somewhere else. Alway. Um, you know, maybe that's to the detriment, but that's just how I look at it. Yeah, and I mean there's definitely room to roam in a lot of places. But UM, I don't know. I I just like to I just like to have options and then kind of you know, keep I I like to stay. I would say, like mobile enough to where I'm not really bogged down in one place that you know that's not going to be productive. If it's not productive, it's not productive. Not saying it won't be productive two days later, not saying I won't check it again, not saying I won't go back, but it's not productive while I'm there, And then I'm gonna go try to find somewhere that's gonna be productive while I am there. Sure well, I was just I just praed open, cracked open the remy at the mediator dot com. Um, do a couple of questions real quick. I don't want to drain your well for your next Q and A. But a couple of good A couple of anton mirnov. He said, I'm prepping for in October Elkin, Idaho, and have some questions to help with my onyx Google Earth scouting. I've heard you all talk about the three things Elk need, feed, water, cover, north facing slopes with thick timber being a choice betting area. My questions how much timber is enough? Does there need to be a large air of contiguous timber or are patches sufficient? If you ask what what is large? So how many trees can an elk sleep under? I mean it really depends on the type of you know, like the type of terrain. If you're talking like high desert, open desert man four trees, you know, like might it might not even you know an aspen well, actually more like high desert to be like those aspen patches in a canyon where everything else is open, but somewhere to just keep the sun off. I mean, think about an elk. One thing that I learned early on, and I remember one of the first outfitters that he would always say this is like elk are always hot. It doesn't matter the time of year. They're always hot. You think about them like they're wearing a giant, massive fur coat all year round and they're always hot. So you got to think about how is that hot animal going to cool itself down? Especially in September when it could be eighty degrees out. You know they're gonna want enough to where it's shaded, it's you know, ten degrees cooler than out in the sun or more. And find those spots and that might even necessarily be Um, a hill that stays shaded longer is gonna stay cooler longer. And that hill has trees on it's gonna be cool. And maybe there's a creek or something nearby. Like they like, they like to stay cool. So, uh, find those places, you know, if it's somewhere that you feel like you could go into and stay shaded. Sweet. I mean I've seen twenty elk bed in a patch of junipers that would be like, um, like real thick pinion juniper stuff out in the desert that's I don't know, thirty yards across maybe you know. So it's just like it just depends. Um, they just need something. But uh, you know if the if the area does have a lot of thick timber, then that's good too. I mean, it just depends on where you're at. All right, we got Garrett and Moody. We'll do one more. Um. Garrett Moody says, I'm an alcanor from Washington State, UM, new to Archie hunting. I was curious if you had any tips when calling loan bulls or elk and very small groups. He hunts roosevelts in an air with very little elk density, where he encounters loan bulls more often than elk and herd's. I was curious of input on calling in these situations. Thanks for the show. Yeah, that's what UM. I mean. I kind of already talked about that, but I loan bulls are the easiest to call in UM for a lot of reasons, Like they can be tricked so many different ways. They can be cow called in now. One one of the difficult things with a loan bull is you might be calling to him and he may not call back. He may not he may want to check things out before he commits to a setup. So if you if you've got a loan bull that's like responding bugling, and you know he doesn't have any cows, you can bugle back. You can pretty much do whatever, just kind of maybe throw out some of that elk party action, make some cow calls, some bowl calls, and you'll probably and then I would just switch to bull calling and you'll probably bugle that bull right in if he's just kind of by himself and maybe he's like, uh, maybe he'd been kicked out or beat up by another elk. You know, making some of those cow calls might be a better way to just draw him in without the potential of pushing him off. Because another thing that in low density areas to what you'll like at an elk in an area that maybe only has a couple of cows, what you'll notice is he's pretty likely to just around those cows up and push him off because they're hard to find. It's like, it's not it's not one of those things where he can just um get in there and keep them. They can they're easier. Those elk kind of like may not even want to be pushed around by a bull. They can disperse pretty easy. So you know, if you get real aggressive right off the bat, it might be something where you push that elk away as opposed to draw him in. But I think one thing in those scenarios you've got to be careful of is just thinking that the bull isn't coming in because you aren't hearing him, because those lone bulls do tend to come in silent and it's not as fun, but it can still be successful. Yeah, we had that a couple times last year where you can hear him coming in but they're not bugling like you can hear him crashing. You can hear you know, you here coming. I heard we had last year, Will come up the bottom of the strainage that was splashing through a creek and you can just hear him. But he never viewed. One time you hear him breathing and we never did see him. He knew he was there. So the beauty of elk, the beauty of el Gunning, is that mystery. So I just going through this man, you know, it's beautiful about this that's going through all the emails you receive about your podcasts, and you know there is so much diversity. I mean, looking at an email from Tori Sulmanson. She's fifty nine, uh fifteen ye on year old female and she's going out on her first hunt this year. We have Phil Will know I can't pronounce anybody's name, but look at this one. Phil Maylan Bala Jadiya, Uh Maylan bala Jadiya from Alaska. Yeah, I'm not even gonna try to give a crack. Anton Mere and Off we talked about, I mean, people from all walks of life, all across this country. Gender's ethnicities doesn't matter, man, um, all this stuff brings people together. So it's good man, just straight knowledge at cutting the distance. And uh, it's knowledge that it's bringing people together. So well done, Remy, Warren. I like it. I like it too. You want to send us out with just as just a beautiful earth shattering forest changing bugle, Just rip one for us and then we'll say goodbye. Yeah, it'll mostly be throwing my throat. I'm gonna take my head shut off seat, just ripping thing. I'm good, feel nearly fainted. I grated to grab the table for stability like well to Warren, good looking at life to dude, Um, let us know how it goes. And all you people have to be listening to cutting the distance. Um, I was. We were just gonna do kind of like an opening segment here, but it's gonna be a whole dayn podcast because why he'll not sure how we roll. So we'll talk. We'll talk to you soon. Man, thanks for Remy. All right, calculator, that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Now we have to have a little conversation again behind the scenes. I was, I was intending for for this podcast. As I was just telling Remy for this podcast to be like an intro to you know, another interview we're gonna do later with the great powerful Fred Eichler. Um, if you don't know Fred, like litterally, look it up, go follow them on Instagram. He's the best. He's the funniest. Also in ELK Guide in Colorado, and so we're gonna like have two ELK Guides talking. Remy's gonna be like the intro. But it was such a great conversation. It went for so long, it's gonna be one whole episode. Sure. And then Phil said, great idea, do it more often. He was like, stop making all this work for yourself, idiot. Just have cool conversations with people and then just let it be a podcast. So um, Phil's stage advice always heated here at the Hunting Collective. Never not listen to Phil. Ever, Hey, the Barry Kay Gilbert thing by the Bye worked out great. See see Yeah, so in that case I was wrong. Yeah, in this case, I think you're right. Like, you're right. So next week we are going to have I'm going hunting with my dad. He's coming for opening Day. As I was just saying, to Remy and so we're gonna do a little bit of that. Next week. We got Fred Eikler coming up. UM. We are going to interview a guy named Paul Baser, as we talked about a little bit last couple of weeks ago. He is one of the premier animal rights activists. He's coming out of Australia. UM. His group is called Anonymous for the Voiceless and they did protest one of our live shows and Sacramento last year, which is how I was introduced to them, and it was an interesting time. But as I was preparing for that podcast phil Um I was writing down, I was kind of going through, not, hey, here's the data to to tell this guy why animal rights activism is wrong or what I feel about it. One part of the conversation I want to have with Paul is, hey, I would like to understand why you do what you do, which is a discussion and exploration of why you feel the way you do. I mean, why you feel killing an animal is murder, why you feel we shouldn't eat animal flesh as a society, and and that are human evolution has come to a point where now we can live in a world with no meat, and that's what he believes, and he believes it's strongly enough to commit his life to activism around it. So that's interesting enough to me. But then I was also thinking, you know, how do I how do I take break that all down and then explain to him why I personally do what I do and what why it's important to me because I think that is the strongest way to convince someone that hunting has value. And that's really the question that I think Paul asked. I think I was saying, I. I don't know if I said this before, Phil, but I think Paul Basher is kind of like the head like we're giving a video game analogy. He's like the the last boss in the Hunter Versus Vegan argument debate podcast. Is that sure? He's like Bowser and Mario. Yeah, all right in a way, because this dude, I was really confused, but now they get that way, you get it. I totally understand. Well, yeah, you play like three or four levels, you finally get to Bowser. He's starting fireballs at you, exactly similar to what this is like. And so when you get to that point, this is the guy who spends his life debating and reasoning and talking out one worldview, one ideology. That's what he does, that's what his group is trying to convince people to come to their to their side where we as hunters, you know, especially in this podcast, we're not trying to get everybody to go do what we do. We just want some understanding UM and some social and cultural acceptance where it's it's currently not. And so I wrote some things down, Phil, would you allow me to read a few things too. This is kind of the why if I was talking to a vegan, which I will be very soon, kind of the things I want to go through. And I start off by saying that, you know, we talk a lot about the North American model of wildlife conservation. We talk a lot about Pittman Robertson, We talk a lot about kind of the mechanisms of conservation. But sometimes those things fall short because they are tangible, they do their their mechanical there that there's not enough emotion there. And I don't wake up. Phil is not gonna win. When Phil starts hunting. You're not gonna wake up at three am because you're participating in the federal duck Stand program. You're gonna wake up at three am because it's really fun and it's your favorite thing to do, and it even though it's hard and your tie aired and you've got to drink of monster energy just to get through the morning. And you're not even there with your kids when they wake up and all that stuff all the time, the energy, the money, the you're not out there going like, hey, kids. The reason why I'm out here duck hunting at three am, we're putting my decoys out three am, slashing through the water is because the Federal Ducks Stand program. That's not why you do that ship now, no way, And so trying to justify your hunting in that way often falls short. These are side pieces to the explanation, right, Phil, I mean, these are these are things that I'm saying right, feel like you're gonna just say right without listening to what I'm saying next, right PHILM yeah, right. So these are these are parallel. These are side benefits to hunting. They're not the reasons we go. So when you're trying to explain something to a vegan, you might fall into the trap of of explaining the North American model as though you're some altruistic hunter that you're out there doing it because the money, where the money comes from and where the money goes um, and often that's not exactly the case. Summa, Summa, read this, Philly ready. Um. No matter who you're talking to, where and where they come from, or what they're struggling within their own lives, there will be something in your explanation of hunting that speaks to them. I've had so many non hunters sat during conversations like the one that I'm going to have. I've never thought of it that way, and so this is how I want to get somebody to that point. This is how I think about my own connection with hunting. You started a relevant place kind of the ills of modern society. If you take a look at the rising tide of depression and anxiety amidst the COVID night team pandemic, that's easy to see that most people need a solution. Hunting can be it when I think about all the things that bogged me down in my daily life, and they know that there is a cure in the mountains. Our soft, sedentary, sedentary lives are over dependent on convenience and technology and often make it harder to tackle complex problems. We need to move, react in real time, and face unforgiving challenges that provide an endless cascade of real, hard problems to solve. We have to learn where an elk lives, what it eats, how it moves, it's sexual reproduction, and learning how to talk to it. It's an unpredictable landscape that presents a gamelike quality that draws me in like nothing else. It turns on my senses opens the door to a true interactive understanding in the natural world. In that way, honey has helped me appreciate nature and it's many complex systems. I want to know how it all works, how every wild creature plays a role. This leads to a need to understand natural history, predation, and cohabitation. It gives me a participatory connection to the outside that I don't think I could get in any other way. That new relationship has led me to think of the land as community to which I belong and something I draw from to survive. I want to eat well and have proximity to my food and its impact on the land. Nowadays, we're all driven away from our food source and it's ultimate importance to living a happy and healthy life. Going into wild and coming back with hundreds of pounds of elk meat or just a few skin squirrels has shown me that I can maintain a cloak's proximity to what I eat while also lessening my impact on the environment. Eating what I kill is a much more efficient than anything I could think of. Then comes this understanding of death. Hunting gives me a tragic knowledge of the harsh consequences of life and those decisions we have to make in pursuit of wild game. When I ultimately do take the life of an animal, I must come to grips with why and how death is inescapable in nature and in hunting, and I understand it's so much better for having participated. I can no longer fool myself into thinking by simply removing myself from that process that I am not causing death. At the same time, I know that death is almost always beneficial in the wild. That appreciation for death has given me a deeper enjoyment for life. I can't think of anything better than the bonds of hunting with my dad, my best friend, or my producer Phil Just put that in there for you, buddy, and experience all of this together is essential to my happiness sun this up. Because of hunting. I am more fit mentally and physically, better fed, equipped to face tough challenges, more compassionate, and more involved in the natural world. It's not all about ego and blood lust like you might have been told. It's about very much more than that. And see phil commentary. UM. I gotta say as a as a current nonhunter and a person who has no emotional connection to the sport and didn't grow up with it, I I wasn't really on board until the death discussion. I'd say, like, this might get people, get people mad at me, but like, deep down in my core, I absolutely empathize with the viewpoint of the was what's his name, Paul Paul Sheer, gentlemen, you're gonna speak too soon, I I I understand that viewpoint, Sure so do I, And I'd say the like, the most compelling argument for hunting is number one conservation, and I'd say number two like the culinary aspects um, sustainable diets for humans and whatnot, um, but like the argument of a deeper understanding of nature and wildlife and animals. I would I would argue that you could get similar feelings by doing by by tracking if you want, like animals and observing them in wildlife, that in in an experience that doesn't end with you putting down your binoculars and pulling out a rifle and shooting it through the heart of the lungs. Um ye, I'd say they understand the like a deeper relationship with the concept of death is is I'd say that that's valuable. Um, I don't know how how far the connection with nature argument is going to get you with this guy. Oh, you know, and I think it's a there is a web of things, and the idea is to present, like listen, if it was just one thing, or if it was a couple of things. If I could say, if I could come out and say, like, you know what, eating meat and conservation, those are three reasons, I go, that's fine. There's a probably the two most logical, most objective things that you could present, but they're also there's also personal things that are a little bit deeper than that. Right, there's things that you can't really articulate unless you've done it right. And then to the to the Michael Paul end quote from Ominer's lem is like hunting is so much different from the inside than it is from the outside. And that's only because there's these understandings that until you kill something and you look at it in its eyes when it's dying, or you end its life and then you watch that go, you can't there's no way to really experience that, and espec atually in a in a wild place where you've done all the things to get there, Like you could go to a farm, walk up to a cow and do the same thing. But the previous experience of learning about it, understanding its place, understanding what praise on it, understanding how many of there need to be, understanding the carrying capacity land, like all that stuff leading up to that death informs how you feel when it happens. Yeah, And I think that this generation that you're in, that I'm in, of hunters, it's important that they start to open theirselves up to that and like that that essential learning about death rather than being like, WHOA, I killed it, even if that's your initial reaction, and I'm gonna tell you what to feel when you kill something, but it's it's I would just say it's been good for me to kind of sit back and think about that, maybe right after it happens, or maybe later in the day, once I'm done cutting it up, and once once I'm done my elk stake and I'm having to be here, maybe it's time to think about that in that moment. So I would say that, you know, I will say to Paul, I would say to anybody I was like, there's stuff in here that doesn't feel like it works unless you you run this out the whole way, you know, And there's and as a hunter, I know, I know for sure, and I think most huners would have to have to admit that there's some reasonings for hunting that are presented in the hunting community that are full of ship. They're just excuses for you know, wanting to do something, and their surface level excuses. And that's why, like I said, the Federal Duck Stand program is fantastic. It is fantastic. It is important. It is a bedrock of our conservation movement. It's a bedrock of why we have as many Mallard ducks as we have. Um, it's it's as important knowing having that knowledge of the Federal ducks Stand program, how worse, is as important as as knowing why ducks fly south. These things are interconnected. But when you're trying to break it down, you know, Paul, but Sheer and and and folks that are arguing from an animal rights perspective, or even your prospective philis somebody who doesn't really know what this is like. You get to a point where you've got to talk about the emotion of it, and you have to recognize that you're killing something. If you don't recognize that, everything that comes before that, you just be like, well, all the things that came before that are excuses for killing something. Even the food part at one an emotional level, even the food part um can sound like, well, I I can you know, if you're just out there for the food, you might just go park along the highway and shoot one in a hundred yards with your rifle, drag it over your car, throw it in wherever it's legal. And so it would be easy for him or for anyone to say, well, if you were just out there for the food, you wouldn't do this, this, this, and this, Yeah, you wouldn't. You'd go to the park and shoot a duck in the face and grab it and eat it. You wouldn't wake up at three a m. And go put out a bunch of decoys and wait through cold ass water. You wouldn't try it to Alaska, you know, to shoot a king id, or you wouldn't go to Alaska to shoot a cariboo. You wouldn't just wouldn't be the way. And so that's the main I don't know. I don't know if any of us will ever get this right. And I will admit that to Paul and we talk. I'm not sure if any hunter would ever get this explanation right, because there's a mirroord ways to explain it. But that's my way and that's been I've been working on that for some time, and then I will continue to evolve, I'm sure, and when I finally take you hunt for the first time, Phil, then I'll probably change my ship my explanation based on what you see. And like you say, oh, I didn't know this. Now I learned this, and that was important to me coming out of the back end of this hunting experience. I thought, I mean, like, I don't want I don't want you to think I was like shitting on because I thought it was eloquent and it was beautiful. I just I'm I'm trying to picture it from his point of view, who's for a man who's dedicated his entire life to fight with people like you, rather than, as I've said before in this show, I find it more compelling to test my own ideas on somebody like Paul then to test my ideas on somebody like Remy. I just I want him to make me realize something I'm wrong about. I want him to say something profound to me that makes me maybe not appreciate animal rights, because I've explored that, maybe he will. I've explored that, though, and I think I just there's so many elements of it that this don't connect for me objectively logically that I just don't know if I'll ever get to a full a place where I can fully accept what's going on. But conversely, I hope he says something that makes me think while as a hunter, I wasn't doing this right, or I wasn't thinking about this the right way, or I wasn't articulate what I was actually doing in a way that made sense. You know's a somebody who's kind of predisposed to hate it, and it's not like a I mean, imagine, one of my first questions for Paul is going to be, how do you walk around in a world where everyone you see as a murderer? What is going? How do you do it? Sure? Because if you go to Anonymous for the Voiceless, if you go there, look at their Instagram page, they have like Q and a s where he's like, well, what if somebody of my family is a non v get and some of the responses like just disassociate. So there's a little bit of an answer to the question of what do you do? That sounds intense. It's like a that's a very fire and brimstone point of view. What do you How is this a thing? And it's not like ten people belong to this organization, hundreds of thousands of them. Um, and if you go to London or if you travel to Sydney or or even you know l A or New York. I mean this is not you know, because Steve Ronella was asking me like, why is this something that we should be looking at all the things going on in the world right now, I was like, dude, there's always gonna be an opposition to probably anything that we do. Um, that's important, but this one, it's not a it's not a small opposition. It's not like there's just a handful of people that are doing this. There's quite a lot of them, and so we'll continue to kind of pull people in and try to figure out what's going on in their heads and appreciate, try to appreciate some thing about what that what Paul has to say, and then try to learn something about ourselves that maybe we can do a little better, or maybe we can rejigger some some of our explanations on this stuff. And then we have our trust the engineer Phil right along and tell us you're like the guy in the middle. Right, you're like the dude in the middle, You're like the moderator. Maybe, No, how do you see yourself? Phil explain to the people. I I, well, I mean that's it's not really I don't think it's super complicated. We're like hard to explain. I just like I have no emotional connection to hunting, but at the same time, I'm not like opposed to it. Like maybe maybe when I actually do it, maybe it'll actually pull me further away. Dude, you can go out there, I can shoot something and then realize I didn't like doing that and I don't want to do it again. But like, at the same time, I'm not gonna. I don't think that will lovers turn me into an animal animal rights activists or like an anti hunter. But as part of this podcast, have you started your own animal rights podcast? Walk into the office and just put down my letter of residue, you started your own company against me specifically? No, I have, like, I have some hunting stories from my life, many that don't age well in my own mind. I'm not saying age well for other people, but like in my own mind, things I've done in hunting that that if you approached me today to do them, I wouldn't do him again. Yeah, I have some things that old age well, and and that doesn't doesn't really produce guilt. It produce like I'm learning as I go, and certainly that's just what it is. And so, um, it's elk season, it's hunting season for many people. Dear seasons are open up across the country, and um, we're gonna talk about that, but we're gonna continue to kind of poke it our why and understand what that is because that's what we do here. I will continue to do it. But I'm looking forward to Paul, I'm looking forward to fred Eichler. I'm looking forward to the dichotomy where we're talking to a season elk god and having a good time with him, and then next time we're punching it up with Paula Scher from Annoser of Voices. So that's coming up in the weeks ahead. Please enjoy your elk season. Say bye, Phil, good bye, because I can't go a week without doing Run, without doing run, drinking out right, I'm wrong, drinking in

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