00:00:01 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome episode number ten of The Hunting Collective. I'm Bet O'Brien. Today we're joined by none other than Aaron Snyder. Aaron is the dude, the man. I think he's the president of CEO. He just is the guy at Kafaro Packs. Um, he's also the host of the Kafar To Cast and a bunch of other great things for that company. But moreover, man, he's just a back country badass. I could talk to him all day about his strategies for hunting in the back country, living out of a pack for weeks on end, for months on end. Uh, You'll hear and talk a lot about his advice and tips in that area. Man, He's got a lot to say, and hopefully, UM, this podcast will start a larger conversation with him because I think he's a wealth of information about how to succeed in the back country. But we also because I oh Aaron such an honest guy. He's got a reputation in the hunting world as an honest guy and straightforward dude, no bullshit that he would He would shoot us straight on a lot of tougher issues we've been talking about within the hunting industry, So I was glad to talk with him about gripping grins and social media and non hunters, anti hunters and everything in between. I think it was a great conversation with a really honest guy. You're gonna you're a lot more cursing than you normally do in this thing because it was a great conversation. We were flowing and he likes to let it fly. So without further ado, here's Mr Aaron Snyder, a certified back country badass hunter and a good guy. Episode number ten. Enjoy Aaron, what's going on? Man? Grabbing me on? How about you? Oh? Just uh, just getting ready, get done chasing turks, check myself for ticks, trying to make sure the defeat wasn't more than the actual the hunting portion. Yeah, yeah, we Texas Rios are normally not the smartest turkey, but in the case of this last couple of days, um, they I either got a lot more dumb or they got a lot smarter. I'm not sure which. Yeah, where are you at down there? So we've got yet He has a ranch um down almost on the border near town called the Eagle Pass, so we're stones throw from the um Mexican border there. So we were all the way down south for a couple of days and I up here close to Austin, Texas a couple of days and uh, crappy weather, bad situations. Usually what was usually is a pretty easy run for turkeys was was came up nothing. Oh yeah, that's because I've never I have one. Hunted Texas a little bit, um, not a whole lot. Just um my ex wife actually lived down there, so um when we were together. They have a branch in the hill country. So I hunted out a little bit, but not a whole whole lot. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the good things about living in Texas. Hunting wise, there's very few good things. But one of the good things is is turkeys. You can shoot four with a resident license, and most landowners could give two ships about turkeys. So more access and good amount of tags. Other than being able to hunt exotics, that's about really the only good thing I found about hunting in this state. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely so tell me, like we were just talking before we went live here about my podcasting technical difficulty because I'm just one guy here h sitting at a table. You've been podcasting for quite a while. I mean, how have you seen the medium change and and how's it changed your career? And yeah, I've been interested to talk to you just about podcasting in general and what you've seen over the years that you've been doing in it. Oh, I mean I really just I started with Brian. Bryan has taded me on as it as a guest and on a podcast a couple of years ago and took well three years ago. I guessed with the Gritty Bowman and I'm kind of introverted to begin with. And he got like right up in my gril bugging me about it, like, yeah, let's do it, you know, and and um, not that I hadn't. There's people that knew who I was, but I hadn't really you know. I just I didn't really make myself, you know, known to the public or whatever. And um, and it turns out a lot of people I was an asshole, which was good I got on the podcast. If people may still think that, but they at least they think I'm a funny one now. Um. And so you know, Brian was one of the first and uh, the Gritty Bowmen or whatever, and it's uh, I had a few people tell me, like, you know, kind of predict the future of there'll be hundreds of them in no time and and wow, um there are a lot of podcasts now, some of them really good and some of them probably should just stop doing podcasts. But you know, it's it's definitely as far as for me, Um, since I don't like being in public so much, like I don't really like going to shows or whatever, it's definitely let people get to know me a lot more and and get a little bit more well known. Um, just you know, as far as how I am and how I hunt and you know, normal stuff like that. Yeah, I mean people are in your You're in people's ears, and it's a it's a pretty passive way to to take in media. I mean TV you kind of have to be plugged in and looking at a screen this thing. They can just kind of just in their ears. And I don't know what that is about about podcasting that brings them a little closer to you. So I'm sure in your case, I mean, you know, I'm I have to go to shows. I don't know if you'd call me a show person or not. I think I do all right with the talking and the answering the same question a hundred times and and all that, but uh, I prefer this kind of conversation. Well, I dropped f bombs like a comma. That's another problem. So I gotta early watch that. And uh, I mean, we we have a podcast where I started my own podcast, Frank and I UM, which is definitely explicit compared to where Brian had to do a lot of bleeping. Um. What's I try to be as good as I can on head um and I'll try not to drop any bomb. Please do bring him bring him on. I could care less. I could care less. Anybody that knows me knows I'm m. I don't drop him every column, but just about every other comma. Well, I just like Rogan will text me. He's like, dude, I'm so f and happy that you f and cuss. I can't handle beats and uh, you know for Frank and I. I mean, that's one thing I've never I mean, right since I was fourteen, I haven't changed much. Right, I'm the saying what might have grown up a little, but um, you know, And and that's one thing I think that people responded really well. The Kafaro cast is the you know, the I mean it's raw, but it is what it is. It's what we're doing and we don't, you know, really anything up. I've only got one email thus far asking me to stop cussing, so and I've got a number of emails from this podcast. I'll take that as a win. I'm sure there's some people out there they don't fucking like it, but sorry, like that's do it for emphasis? Yeah, yeah, no kid. Well, I've been listening to a couple of forecasts actually on the on the road trip back up here from from Turkey Camp and enjoy I'd, like I said, didn't enjoy the role on this and and I definitely have been a following yours for a while. Um, especially on the trade bow side of things. I've never I've never made that jump. I'm still I've been shooting a compound bow for most of my life, but i still feel like I'm learning that thing. Um as as as long as I've been doing it is that you feel like that's a permanent thing with you. I'm gonna stay with the trade bow, never jump back over to the wheels. Yeah, I don't think I will, even though I'm leaving a shiploads of money on endorsement contracts. I don't not a whole lot of Tragic Boat guys or companies are like, oh yeah, I will pay you to shoot our boat. So I kind of put myself on that one. But I don't think i'll I'll go back. Um. I mean, I'll still do tuning and stuff and help guys out on the podcast. But as far as you know shooting, I mean, we just shot a three D course tonight before I got on the horn with you, and uh I can. I will shoot until my fingers fall off with a recurve um, I shoot a black widow p s A and I just shoot teting lights out where were the compound? I mean, it was just I mean, I've got a d D like a motherfucker anyway, So it was like a struggle to get through twenty targets. And my fiance has even brought up She's like, I have never seen you like this, just just infatuated with something. So I can't say I'll never go back, but I can say at this point in time that I don't have any plans on back to the wheel though. What is it about that that I mean I get, I get like that with a compound bow. I think I'd get about that with any discipline like archery. Just I'll be out in the yard and I want to shoot ten airs and go have a beer and have dinner, and the next thing I know, I'm a hunter twenty airs deep, my arms falling off. I mean, I get that all the time. I think with me, I got to get enough with the compound that there was not a lot of a challenge. And uh, I mean I have a one World championships or anything. I don't. I haven't shot competitively in a while, but I can stand side by side. It was just about anyone and not embarrass myself, and especially when with hunting. And I think it just got to a point where it was almost such a given that UM with a compound for me to to, you know, to kill an animal, the harvest animal. I just it's more exciting because you suck so bad with the traditional bow. You gotta work so hard at it, um, you know. So I think that's part of it, that it's just and for me, I'm a horrible trophy hunter, right, I'm more and for I like need, I like the hunt, I like the camaraderie. I like to beat myself up. And so you know when you can drop bombs at a hundred yards and shoot extremely effectively and then all of a sudden a hundred yards like a par four or five, it definitely changes the game. Yeah, what's your how effective are you at the thirty yards? Say? Uh, oh, I wouldn't want me shooting it at me at fifty, but as far as in forties, my my max. You know, like like I certain situations or whatever, I would take the forty yards shot. Um. I mean I can keep them well with inside a paper plate, but um, you know my goal is And I've shot a few animal at a couple of animals now, uh, you know feet away like chat a mule deer stucked in and press shot at it a foot away maybe, um, And uh I like that, you know, it's just it's just cool. And and uh I shot a real big buck with Briant up in Alberta kind on another end right at forty um. Uh. And Jeff Lander that there was the outfitter anyway, And it's just a different intensity for me. And I'm on a journal and dunky junkie anyway, and my heart rate doesn't go up a lot when I shoot a compound in comparison, and uh, you know, I sho had a freaking dough white tail and was ecstatic down in Alabama. I took a fixture whether it was my first white tale, and guys are like, man, I can't believe he still shoot? Does you take a picture with it? And I'm like, well, why wouldn't I. I mean, at one, it's not overly easy tipping over an animal to begin with. Number two, with a recur it's even harder. And three, I mean it's a big deal for me. I'm glad I got one. And I end up shooting a buck the next day or two days later. But I guess everybody's got their own opinion of of of a trophy. And at that point in time, that freaking white tail dough was a trophy for me because I see trop me like memorable, you know what I mean, I'm like, okay, I got one of it, so I and I think too. I mean, um, you know, for me, I'm an odd duck. I'm I'm I'm I'm not in it. For I'm weird. Man, I've left I left in the field, you take the meat back, And I'm just one of those odd guys that really UM am in it for a lot of reasons that maybe other people might not agree with. And and I say if they don't agree with truthfully, I and Brian Cole will tell you Antler's size does not make a ship a difference. To me, if I had a choice to shoot a one sixty five deer or something on the side of the road or shoot a hundred and thirty eight miles in on the stock, I'm gonna go eight miles in. And I'm not saying that to pound my chest. I just like backpack hunting, and I like that at picture. So I've talked to I give Steve and Ella credit, but I think Steve and all his brother Danny Danny or Matt, one of his two brothers, came up with this idea of the purity score for hunting. Talked about that a lot. And I love that ship because you think about what we're talking about this in Turkey Camp a couple of days ago. I have my purity score nowadays is like how I feel when I walk up on the animal, Like the moment that I walk up and realize it's dead and I did what I came to do, Like what do I feel like because if, for example, if it's on the side of the road, or it's a giant buck that I barely I got there on day one, crawled up on it and shot at whatever range, it doesn't feel the same as if you it's nine days into a backpack hunt and you had to make some ridiculous shot off a cliff and then scale down and find the deer and pack it out like that, you don't. The purity score is just based on how you feel when you walk up on the on the damn thing. And I feel like that's that's one thing just from following you on social I know we haven't met met to this point, but I admire that because that's what I get, that feeling with you, even though maybe it hadn't heard some purity score, maybe you had, I don't know, but I get that feeling that that's what's important to you. It Yeah, it is, And I mean I've I've yeah, I've gotten pretty epic battles that almost have went to fists about this, where some guys cracking on a guy that shot his first animal, um, you know, and it was a spike or a cow le could he's super ecstatic and you know, you get some righteous dick ad saying I would never shoot that, and it's like, oh, well, mommy and Daddy didn't hand him everything and give him. I'm ranch in Montana to go hunt on this asso. I had to hike in and kill it himself. And he's happy with it. So just the funk up. Let him be happy. That made his life. And uh, and I've been a pretty big advocate of that, and um, you know, go hunt for the right, go hunt it for what makes you happy, and what what turns your crank and if that may be making a self bow and shooting a dought and well, theyr up some funk on him and get out there like making. You know, we have problems in the industry now, and so I'll try to join up and get along, you know. Yeah, I mean that's it's there's a bunch of things and that I agree with the hunter percents, like you just strip away. As long as if there wasn't social media, no one could see what you were up to, What would you do what you could You would only do what you thought brought you excitement and pleasures not the right term, but but fulfillment from the hunt you know, you wouldn't do anything based on what anyone else thought if no one could see what you were doing, and there was no chance of that, so right, you know, social media think it has changed that. I would just say, you can definitely see on my social media page. I don't give the ship. I did the exact same thing. Yeah, and I would do no matter, you know. And and other people though it's like, oh, don't post that I missed, Oh don't post this, I did that, or you know, I mean, nothing worse than the guy posting the photo of an animal and apologizing it wasn't big enough. I'm just like, you know, I understand you wanted something bigger, totally understand. Maybe you let down a little bit, but you did take the things fucking life right like you chose to kill it. So don't apologize it wasn't big enough. Be proud of these shot or don't shoot? I mean, but I didn't. I mean, I don't whatever, Well, what kind of weird like it's just a value system thing, man, Like, it's just a value system thing, like what what do you value? You value like what people think about the ends all or what you think about the ends? I mean that's that's all it is. And if you if you value what's on top of its head, you're never gonna be happy because there's always a bigger animal out there. You're not gonna shoot the world record every time, and you're never gonna quite get there's people perception of what's on top of its head. If that, you're in gold, and definitely in it for the wrong reasons. And I mean, I'm laughing at this because we Brian Gaul just sent me the video of our moose hunt, and you talked about that that scale, right, And when he shot his moose, I had my bow in my hand and moose came in and I'm like, he bline, I know him up, but go ahead, you go ahead and shoot it with the gun. I don't want. I don't want to shoot it with a gun. And he shot at great moose, you know. Fast forward, um six days of rain, snow and misery, and had a big bullet five or stick hunter yards away and we're looking at it, figuring in a plan, and here comes at two points and I looked at Devon and I it, hey, if that comes closer, it's gonna die today. He was like hunt and I'm like, no, I'm not kidding. I'm like, I'm here because I want the meat because the moose is really good. Better pray that that thing doesn't come down to the river. I'm gonna take it. And he still thought I was kidding, And Brian was like, it will be like stopping an ocean wave. He will kill that thing if it comes down. He's gonna because I I we throw the trailer up there to bring all the meat home. And so it's pretty apparent on videos. That's the last thing that I'm concerned with, uh, is the size of the rack. Now Having said that, I'm not going to pass up hyder Nad and steer to go shoot it go And I'm not stupid, but I mean, I mean putting things into perspective. Definitely. Yeah. Well that's the first time. The first time Rogan I went hunting that happened. He shot at two point moose, and him and I we had been hunting. He was just there for the meat and we had been hunting for seven days in a rain. Shouldn't out or anything. He shot it and we celebrated like we both on the Super Bowl. We were chest bumping and high five and and spinning around the circles like idiots. I mean, that was it was. That was one of the best kills of my life. Just watching him shoot a moose basically on the side of the road with a rifle and being more happy than anybody I've ever seen. It just tells you a lot about what the hell your mind can can be get wrapped around and when you're out there just getting rid of the trophy aspect of it of it. Yeah, yeah, no, for for sure. And you know, I just, uh, I just did a podcast with the guy um talking about trophy photos trophy hunting, and you know, he kind of came off as an asshole and his post on social media, so I kind of wanted to bring them on and explain it. And I'm like, I said, well, man, while you're preaching to their own crowd, if you're posting on your own social media page because you hunt lions and elephants and giraffes, kinds of ship like you hunt. And he he he has said, yeah, like, you know, the trophy is up to each person, and I don't bash anyone whatever that trophy maybe to what it is to them. Um. You know, he was just talking about hiding behind and and this actually popped up because the podcast you and Brian did about hiding behind the word you know, trophy or trophy hunting. And you know, for me, I think the biggest issue we have on a lot of this stuff is one fighting in the inner ranks, and two context like tell the story, like to tell what happened, you know, tell tell people what it took. Like. That's one thing I try to do with photography. It's for a non or anti hunter watching what I post that might pop on their Instagram page. I wanted to see something somewhat artistic that tells a story, not just dead ship, right. I mean, I don't have any problem with that ship. Right. But my my fiance was not an anti hunter, but I would say neutral. Her mom definitely anti and she's eating my moose tonight. Because I was able to explain it in good context of how life works, how the circle of life works must be weird. I think we do a fucking horrible job as hunters at that sometimes, like we just do a job at it. We can do a lot better. We've done it. We've done a terrible job at it. And I think that's part of we've had a lot of great This podcast, as me, has been like a Catharsis around that idea, because everybody I talked to seems to have a different slant on it, but they all come to the same thing, like we haven't shown the proper appreciation one. You can't do it and just one post with some words underneath it. You gotta do it consistently and tell your story. And if those grip and grinds are important to you, well you've got to understand who's going to see those group and grins. Like and I'm I'm a journalism major. I wasn't back in college a long time ago, but um, the first role of journalism was know your audience. And when you put something on the internet, even if they're just to your followers, you don't know where that thing is gonna go. And just a photo of you and a dead critter doesn't tell half the story, especially if you're smiling behind and you wiped all the blood off and and put fake eyes in or whatever people do when they when they really glorify that troffy shots. It's like, you gotta know who's gonna see it, um, before you can send something like that. If you texted me a grip and griend photo. I'd be like, badass, because I understand everything about hunting and everything about what you're up to when you took that thing. But if if I'm a non hunter and I've never seen a troffy photo before you send that to me, I might say fuck you um and the same breath, and I can understand both reactions. Yeah, oh yeah. And I think that's where one thing I've been talked about on one the other day that I had done. And what it is so important is context, telling the story and helping people understand because they think it's important to understand be in goal right and and that that their meat. They're not crying over burger at the grocery store, Like I don't see anybody shedding a cheer in the middle of King Stupers or Frek Myers right now. He's dropping to it me thinking the burger, God, they killed that. True, they just did it with the pay check or or you know whatever. But people understanding like, hey, you know that animal died to um, lived on a farm with whatever in the cage um and kind of explaining it on a parallel that it's not much different than you know, obviously if they're totally you know, leg in an anti a little bit different story, but explaining how it happens and we're not just a bunch of red deck shoot shoot out the window, um drinking deer right, like, there's a lot more true than that. How would you explain One thing I always get I try to ask everybody for their opinion on this one is how do you explain in the trophy shot? Right, I've taken them. I'm sure you have to, mean, we all have. It's just what hunters do at some level. How are you explaining the smile to people? Why? People say, why are you smiling? I mean, how do you explain that? Well, I'm horrible about smiling, but pretty easy. I mean, if you climbed to the top, he ever, is your probably smiling under your mask? If you play, if you win the NBA Championships, you're probably smiling. And the thing is you're not smiling because the animals, because you killed the animal. You're smiling at the all the hard work, the pain and heartache and that you actually finally succeeded um and you don't want to Also, if you frown and look scowling and almost you're trying to look like this mercenary warrior. Um. So you know that's a double edged sword. But it's more for the hard work and effort you put in. And even though you took a life or animals life, you know you're proud of it. You want to show other people. But it's not showing disrespect the animals, more more showing like the happiness and the the end goal that you you know that you actually performed that. Now the other thing is you could just not take the photo, right, I mean, there's there's that they're not taking show people. Um. And that's one of the things where I really think it's important to telling the story. Um, if you have nothing but grip and great information, should look like some you know, easy eskillery that only sh shoop for the photos and the giant horns. But if you show you know that eating the meat, cooking it, what it took to get there, the working out, the shooting, all of that stuff to where you can run that parallel and say, hey, did you did you did you think anyone? Did you? Did you feel remorse when you ate your turkey border tonight? Um? You know, and kind of running in that parallel to help him understand. I think, you know, the rick and ran or the portion of it is is UM. It's a fine line, but I think it's important to show that you're proud of what you've done, but also not show disrespect to the you know, to the animal, at least on the public eye. I think on the other end of it. You know, we talked about the trophy photo a lot I've been seeing lately, And I don't know if some people just wouldn't want to talk about this or just would be a tough subject, but I really don't don't care. I try to make sure we talked about that kind of stuff here. This did the overdymetization of hunting, like people that are taking these dramatic photos that are contrived and try to make it look harder than it is, or try to just contrive a moment that they feel like a touch point. You see, you feel like you're seeing that a lot. I feel like in my circles, I've seen it a little bit more. Yeah, that makes me want to smack the shoot out of it. I mean, I mean, I don't have any problem if you are one with UM religion and you're UM, you know, all deer stuff. I mean, I think that's great. If you're like super duper Christian. Um, why you would make the animal go into full rig of mortis with its wrap up so you can kneel down and pray for it and in front of it for a photo. Yeah, I get little irritated about that. I don't understand it myself, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It's my own opinion, but I think that, um, some of the over glorified photos that that I do see or or a little much and uh and can be taken in their own context. Um, I would agree, But I mean it's coming from a guy that can barely read and write. What I carry about fifteen pounds a camera gear from the moment we leave until the moment we get back, and I make sure and take a photo of every part of that. And you know, a fraction of the photos. Have a four thousand photos I'll take on a seven to tend hunt, maybe fifty of them are of the actual trophy at the end of the animal. Um. And there's probably a hundred and fifty of us cutting it up. And there's probably another hundred and fifty of us taking care of it and cooking it that night on a stick. Um, if you have three photos of the hunt, thus photos of the trophy, and another three getting it out, your priorities are probably pretty sucked up in my opinion. Yeah, I've seen that if on a few hunts that that I've been on. I mean, it's tough. I'm the same as you, like I've I got called out pretty recently on a photo of one racist earlier this year. Um, on a photo of me. It was a contrived photo of me walking up a cliff edge in uh Northwest Territories, trying to look hardcore with this freaking caribou skull in my pack and nothing else in it. And I had a buddy call me out on it, and I'm so happy looking back on it. He just kind of wrote the sarcastic like, real tough for O'Brien, Yeah, it's real tough. I'm sure you spent a lot of time climbing up that cliff. I was like, yeah, I've spent no time climbing up that fucking cliff. I just kind of scurried up and somebody took a photo and I posted it and it was pretty disingenuous on my part, and he called me out, and I'm glad he did. Um. I don't know if you can always call people out in the moment like that without without it getting combative. But at some level, if it's somebody you're close to and you see that, let him know that that maybe that's not the best thing to do, and maybe you can switch it up a little bit. So I'm definitely guilty of that, ship, I really am. I've made some minimies by saying for and I understand photo sheets. I mean how I run you run YETI right? I mean, you gotta to you. But you know, if you've got someone else's animal on your pack for a qualified photo, I get'll put you over that. But I mean having you know said that. I mean I just posted a photo not too long ago of this enormous seven against wide moose on my pack. But I posted in the story to say, hey, I only had to pack this thing a couple of hundred yards to where we could get the helicopter to land. I didn't carry it five miles. I didn't, you know what I mean, Like we didn't. And sure enough, as soon as we got the rack on the guy's getting the camera and they said, we got to take photos of this ship. No one's gonna believe it because it was you know, two pound load. Um. But you know, I mean, I there's times that for correct lighting. I mean maybe not like an animal on the head. I'll recreate stuff and say, hey, quit moving, kneel down again. That was a great photo. I think that's okay. I don't mind that. But you do see guys stuff a pack with sleeping bags to throw an animal on the back of it, crooked gamo lines on their face and ship for a better photo. Yeah, different genuits would That would probably be an a dictionary right beside the definition. Um, you know, it's not really how how life work when you're in the field. So yeah, it's a it's a balance. So you said, you know you're running Creferro you it's same with YETI. I mean, we're trying to show off a product. We have to contrive part of it. We have to. I mean, you know at some level that's that's the way it's done. It's the way you have to do it. But you just I would say, you know, I don't want to go over this, this topic, all this entire podcast, But I would just say that, you know, these conversations help people think through a little bit and maybe think twice when they're about to do something that for the wrong reasons. And we were talking about early on in this podcast, I think it was with Ronella about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation and like doing it because it makes you feel a certain way of doing it because it makes other people feel a certain way. So I've since I learned those fancy words, I've been thinking about that every time I do something or post something or take a photo, and it's helped the hell that'll I think what how I feel about what's going out there in the world based on this podcast or just me hunting or whatever whatever piece of contents out there. So hopefully these kind of conversations and you know, you calling people out or just tell them what the hell you think is that means something in the hunting community. I think I can't even get on a form anymore. A lot of social media pages because of all the bs and fighting that goes on, and you know a lot of that is just not you know, needed, And occasionally when I'll cast somebody out, is um you know, if a guy says, hey, I you know, my my packway to hundred and fifty pounds and I went X amount of or whatever, I'll be like, hey, you know, I'm sending a message like, hey's one, there's a there's a fine that amount of people that can do that. I'm one of them. Um, I don't think you are. And so you need some context behind that before you get some you guys that breaks this freakingneecap out because he saw you do it or saw you say you did it. You know, I'll call guys out on that kind of stuff too, or or just stuff that. I mean, does it hurt the industry, No, But I mean there's times that you know, you might want to throw your two cents in. But in general, some of the in fighting is just we have so many problems with the antis right now. I mean, we're our own worst enemy, whether it be compounds, shipping on trad guys, trad guys making fun of compound dudes, rifle hunters, you know, getting made fun of my compound guys. It's like, yeah, we're kind of all in this together and we're doing a real shitty job of getting along. Yeah, why do you think that is why. I remember coming in the industry almost immediately kind of getting in some of these circles where you're talking to hunters all the time, and one of the first things I remember thinking is, man, they fight. We fight a lot about the silliest little things. Why why the hell is that? I mean human nature and tiny penises? Man? I mean you think about it like, I mean, if, I mean truly, like if you if you really think about the motive. Um, I've heard. I mean, if if you're a guy that only wants to shoot four haired and shell, but you show appreciation to a guy that shoots a five by five, there's no issue with either one. But if you're a guy that hops on and says, let's say right now, I'm su recurve, right, you're a rightful guy. Um. I can think one guy specifically, I won't mention his name, who basically was like, yeah, I think all recurve hunters are stupid. Why don't you go out and shoot another four good horn or whatever? Well? I mean, okay, is he threatened? Is he? I mean? Why would he even say that? If not hurting? You know him or you see guys getting known in the industry. Um, and people hate on him like Cameron is a great example, Like, um, guys hate on Cameron constantly. And and I'm not like a huge Cameron leg humping fan, right, but you can't deny the guy is just a physical you know, beast, right, Like the guy's just a machine. He works hard. And so if you hate on the guy and you're making crazy jokes, why would you do that when he's one of the greater spokesmans for the outdoor community, like him or not, Why would you publicly bash him? Now? I mean I made a couple of nipple jokes about him before that you need to put a shirt on, but in gen humor. But it's like, you know, and I'm gonna do that no matter who you are. Like, if if you've got to set a spandex on and you post a photo, you're gonna probably get some kind of message from me. That's making cracking jokes just I mean, yeah, I hung around with a rough crowd. But if you get on and just basically straight up say why the hell did you shoot that? I mean a lot of it's gonna be envy, jealousy again, small penises and male pride um because if you take a big step back. If it was your brother that shot that animal, or your sister or your mom, are you gonna make fun of them? Probably not. But if it's somebody that you don't know, because you're always tougher on the computer, you can say whatever you want. There's no accountability because I'm not saying I'm in capable get my ask beat. But there's some people that have said things to me on my line, and I guarantee they wouldn't say it to my face. And the computer, the internet is a great way for people living their mom's basement and talk shit. Um, I mean it just did he do? Yeah? I mean Cam is Cam Haynes is a great He's as great example because he's polarizing for the weirdest reasons. I've hunted with Cam many times, not many times, enough times to know and hung around him enough times to know that he's legit. I mean, the fact that he can run two dred miles at a time, it should just end the conversation right there. It should end right there. I mean, there's not a whole lot of people that can challenge that guy's ability too much of anything. So he's never I've never seen him put post anything that I thought, well, that's bad for hunting, Not one time. Um, you know it does he you things a little different than some other people. Sure, yeah, we all do things different, But I've never once thought, well, I need to talk to Cam about that thing he's doing because it's it's not good for all of us. So yeah, I mean that. Then that leaves all the petty people that you're talking about with the tiny penis is to talk about how big how big is muscles are, or how big the animal is and poke at the things that really don't matter. At the end of the day. The petty people are left to throw shade at at Cam. In my opinion, I've seen it a lot. And then the bigger you get he's got I don't know how many followers nowadays, but the bigger you get, it seems like the more hate you get. I think that's just a rule of life. Oh I've seen that one myself. Um, luckily I've stayed above a frey on some of it, you know, and I don't have I'm only get I don't know how many followers I got. I don't know. I don't have the many as he does, but as it grows right like you post. I had a visor on the other day on an elk Ive shot, so I immediately posted, hey, I got shamed out of wearing the visor before anybody may to comment, And some of the messages I got were just, I mean, in fun sort of. But I was like, it's a visor, right, like I don't have the skin of a human on my head. For christ Thicke, it's a visor. Well, it's amazing, like wants you get to be more known. Whoever can take a pop shot at you, whatever it may be, unless you just ship gold, they're gonna find a reason to make fun of you. And in my case, I think I I think I said I've seen Cameron's nipples more than my wife. He should put a shirt on for something like that, because that's my humor. But man, I would say that to his face and I didn't mean anything negative by it. I was just like, yeah, I see you naked a lot, dude, um type of a thing. But I don't That kind of stuff doesn't bother me. When guys say crap like that about me, it doesn't matter. It's the truly hateful stuff that I just cannot believe it gets thrown at people, especially good for the community. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of people that are seeing camp stuff, that are inspired by camp stuff that that would never understand hunting if it wasn't for some of the prisms that he puts it through. And I've I've never I mean, I don't, you know, think of myself. I think of myself as a guy that works at yet to be quite honest, and um, this podcast was just a nice way to have these kind of conversations and record them U and I. But I have rarely I would say, like once every couple of posts, I'll get something negative. And usually when it's negative, it's far down the rabbit hole. It's pretty it's like fuck you, I hope you die, I hope your family dies. It's not hey didn't really like that. It's it's extreme. So I just chalk that those kind of things up to people that just don't know how to like human interaction is lost on them. That I don't imagine there's any good at it in person, let alone on the internet. Yeah, oh yeah for sure. And I can say like there's I mean, as far as things that people may need to call, like you've mentioned like there's not one post he's made that you don't need to call and say, hey, I've been a talking about it. Oh, I can guarantee there's ship like that on my page where you might need to call. Especially things I've said, I mean, not horrible, but I mean when you're got a mouth like mine or whatever, you know, there's gonna be things I say that probably I shouldn't, Um, but I still try to do my best as far as like a good spokesman for the outdoor you know, community, and you know, when it comes down to it, like, um, what the issues were already having now? Um, if you go to I mean I've seen guys bash Rogan and I've sent a messages and be like, yeah, let's piss on one of the greatest spokesmans we have for hunting right now, let's shoot on him. You're fucking moron, Like are you stupid? Like he's one of the greatest assets we have right now? And what is Rogan to do? Like, oh, the guy spot you know he's stupid and bad for honey. Yeah, I think about half the planet smokes pot right now. Let's yeah, anybody anybody that attacks that guy. I mean, man, he's just a good person. So anybody that's listening to this that is thinking about attacking Joe Rogan one, he'll kick your ass. Two. He's just a good dude. And there's no other way to describe him. So if you listen to the podcast he thinks there's some like disingenuous nature to anything he says or does, there isn't, I promise you that. And he's just I can give you twenty examples of just real good things that no one would ever know that he did for me and people around me. And I'm sure you're the same that he just does because he's a good guy and he doesn't he doesn't need any accolade accolades for any of that stuff. So yeah, there's just weird ones like that where that person clearly is just looking for something. And like you said, I think sometimes hunters fall more prey to that than other groups of folks. I don't know this, probably will probably never figure out what away by this. Where I bounced things off of photography getting it I mean, and you know, I hate to say this in a sense of like I'm not comparing hunting to photography, but you look at on photography forums and social media pages and you kind of get the same stuff on there where you have haters and you have all this different stuff, and I mean it's human nature. For for one. The thing is is no one's going to take photography away from people, I think and get taken away. So if photographers want to fight amongst themselves or un some funk on it, you know what I mean, they can throw batteries back and forth at each other. But losing the right to hunt is a real threat. Um. The second moment is a real threat, and so it's a it's a different um. I guess it just puts us in a different spot light or a different level where we really need to watch her mind, you know, mind our p's and ques and try to come out of the United Front running a bunch of red knick dip shifts. We generally come off. Yeah. I mean, I've always said that when people say, you know, if if you run a company, if hunting was a company, we would nobody would buy us. Hunting, the hunting community, industry, hunting as a whole average you want to describe it, nobody would buy it because it's there's less hunters than ever. Almost seems like every year. The public perception of it seems like it wanes that every every time somebody shoots a lion. There's not a whole lot of people in this country that truly understand it. I mean, we're getting way better, way better as a group, and there's a lot of us that are pushing towards what I would feel like is the right angle. Um. Do you buy that if we were, if we were a company that no one buy stock and hunting, it would be a difficult sell, um, because we've done a bad job at uh selling ourselves. Um. And I think that as you as you say that, we'll do and better. I mean, I just spent an hour on the phone with a Diplarma via w agent, a game warden about um a podcast for doing tomorrow, but about changing this perception for the greater good of hunting. Meaning it's informing representing what we do in a better light. How do we do that? Like you know? Um? Is it is it bad to take a picture of a photo of a deer in the back of a truck with beer tans in the back? I mean, do whatever you want, but don't post that ship on social media. I masturbate every day, No one needs to know, don't post it on social media, right, Like there's some ships that are left untold, and that's what I just don't understand. What, guys, do you need to have the l hanging from the fucking forklift and take a photo of it? Yeah, it doesn't really matter, but why do you need to tell everyone and show everyone. That's where we need to really police our ols on that kind of behavior. I don't have a problem with. That's how you cleaned in. I don't think it needs to be posted for the world to see, does it? Because it because it does put you in a bad lay. I mean, I don't know how you feel about that. Yeah, I mean that that's the thing like we we were taught. I was on this panel with I don't know how much ever, listen to Shane Mahoney, but that dude's he's one of a kind. He's pretty special dude, especially Shane Mahoney. You know Shane at all, m um So Shane, it was was talking about there's four teams. Say there's fourteen million hunters. We know there's eleven million or so now, but whatever the number is, let's say there's eleven million hunters. Every single one of them has a chance to be a pr agent for hunting. Everyone has a chance. Not everyone will, but everyone has a chance. Like you have a choice whether to be good or bad for hunting. And that's what's both encouraging and scary about this next generation. You know, I'm thirty two my generation. What's an encouraging about it is everybody has a voice. What's what's scary about it is everybody has a voice. And so that's why I think this conversation is important. One because we haven't a generationally haven't done a shitty job at framing hunting up and talking about all the good things. And then too, because there's eleven million people that are out there hunting that can all tell their own story, for good or bad. So I think that's why, you know, us talking about this for half an hour podcast is a thing that has to continue to happen because it's such an important topic because there's so many people that have a chance to impact what you and I do for a living, whether we want to go to hunt bears and grizzly bears and b c or or mountain lions in California or whatever we can't currently do. We may not be able to to go do the thing we want to do tomorrow because somebody, you know, posted something that was socially unacceptable. M hmm, well yeah, I think that's yeah. The answer to the answer to that question is is very much just we gotta dial with in. Everybody has to dial it in as a group, really do no. No, I agree? Um, and I think as a whole. Um. I mean, and this is coming in I said this million times on Bryant's podcast. I mean, this is coming from a redneck kind of a bloodthirsty When I say bloodthirsty, what can be perceived as blood thirsty? Guy? Um? And it probably ten years ago, was the worst spokesman for Honey because I didn't have a brain. I was a dumb ship, right. I mean, I just but as you as you are exposed to all these different things, right, and all these you know, it's a it's a collective of Yeah. I mean, your life is the book, right, you got all these different chapters, and you know is the book goes on towards the industry chapter. As you're reading chapter forty through fifty, you're gonna probably seem a lot more intelligent. You did a chapter once or five because you've you've learned, right. And one of the things that I learned is as I grow in the outdoor industry and I have a odium to speak on or I'm doing cardio and bump into people to see I'm wearing a camel pack. Take that that that that point in time in your life or whatever to to to shed a shining, bright, happy blowing beacon on hunting and not act like a fucking dumbass, right and and and I think that when there's these two paths that people have to take a right and and help hunting and take a lesson look like a dumb ship. I mean it seems like a fifty fifty sometimes on what they do. Like you run into somebody at a trailhead that says I don't like hunters. Well you can come back and say, I don't give a ship what you like your dump and you start screaming at him already say hey, I understand that. Why Hey, you know, I I don't mind discussing this, like, hey, let's let's talk about it. Like I don't want you to have a poor opinion of me just because I hunt. Let's talk. I've done that. I mean, like the you know, Boulder, Colorado, right, like you can't find them more well they you want, right, I'm in Denver, but you're not going to find more liberal people in the trail has been here. But I have found it hugely helpful to be fairly well spoken and have some data behind you and be able to represent hunting in a strong um. I say argument, but an argument, you know, and let him know what happens and why, how the circle of life works, rather than just saying, oh, shut up, you dumb ship and grab your weapon and walk away. Well, I just put another black eye on hunting. I may, I may want to say that, but don't I feel you unsent. I've had a few conversations with people and it seems like the person that doesn't agree with with hunting, or you know, you label a manti hunter if you want to what a person is ignorant about it or doesn't agree with it is the is the aggressor in the beginning, like they're pushing your buttons to see how you're going to react. I've had that in person a few times, where someone was pushing my buttons just to see see how I would react, or or just because they they had their own preconceived notions. They wanted to see how that conversation would go and see if I would revert to my red neck you know, pound my chest and run out of the room. Um, revert to my redneck status as a as you know, I'm like you, man, I came from I came from shoot a spike. Anything with antlers on its head got shot. And we didn't we didn't discuss much other than was it a two point or a four point or an eight point? That was our only the only way we talked about antlers. And so yeah, I think some people who don't agree with they are expecting that kman response from me, and that's kind of what they want. And if you give it to him, then you're losing it. You're losing the battle. Yeah. No, no, I I agree. And you know, I've talked to like Calhan and I I mean I don't I don't really have talked to Romela too much. Um, but you know, obviously being in the industry and in a position, I mean, I mean I've hunted with Calhan quite a bit. And again, I mean every he did a great job. I mean the mustache shell said, right shave that those other clown haircut there Jesus. On that loose time we were on he had fourteen He had like a skullet man like like full on comb over hair, and I'm like, you just shave that should off and keep the dash man at pamp. But you know, he and I profited ton um about different stuff like this. And again, I mean you think about it. Sixty five days a year. Half of those you probably have a chance to shed a brighter light on hunting. And people need to take that every chance they get, whether you're a cross fit at jim. You know photography, UM, you know not to preach this. If I'm snapping photos the giant running mule deer in an area where I'm surrounded by National Geographic photographers and they figure out on a hunter, I just look at that as a bonus. But I need to look at that as a bonus and take that opportunity that they see is intelligent. He's taking photo, Okay, he backpacks in or he does this. Oh yeah, no, I understand and use that opportunity rather than UM one either hiding from it because you're not spreading the word an intelligent word UM, or two just getting from bative which and it never goes anywhere. And I'm a trombative guy, but I mean, you can't be in that situation. Yeah, And I wonder, like, you know, because Yetie, we deal with a lot of I mean, we deal with climbers and skiers. I mean, I'm talking top level influencers in these worlds, you know, the guys like in climbing, guys like Conrad Anchor and Jimmy Chen, people who are you know, super influential, not only in those smaller communities, but just in that outdoor wreck community overall. And I just wonder how much and I have no idea how much in those groups they talk like this, how much they say, Man, we all got to pull together and shine a better light on climbing, or we all got to pull together and shine a better light on skiing. I'm man, it's great that we can have that conversation, this one. As much as some of it could be negative pointed towards the negative, the whole purpose of the damn thing is that so we can all get better and keep doing it because we love it to day much. And so I just wonder that sometimes outside of in the national geographic world, are they more pointed towards other communities. Are they ever to look inside of their own stuff and be like, hey, we can do this better or that better. I wonder about that because I know that's the reason why I love doing this, because this conversation is all about getting better. Even if you have to point out a few people that are poking holes in the boat to uh, to get there. Yeah, and I tell you what the pointing out poken hole in the boat people? UM, I have found that could be difficult to get best because you know, some people may not know that they're shooting holes in the boat. Was you know, fifty cow and other people may be locked and loaded with you know, the mob is just firing away like I don't give a ship. Well, I mean I I just think like, um, if you're wanting to be grow Second Amendment, UM, pro rate at whatever if you if you if you're wanting to to do that, UM, I think it's great. I just think that showing bloody dead animals laying all over the place is shooting some big holes in the boat. Um. Even though you may think like, well it so it has written, so shall it be done? This is how it's been in history and it can't change. Oh, it can change, and it's rocking changing quick. And so what I mean, have them somepford when you point those things out to those people, Maybe just not you know, throw it in their face. But I also say, hey, man, you know, I've been really thinking about this, and I think maybe you know, you might want to try and do with this. This might help out a bit more. You know that the messages you're kind of putting out now or giving us a black eye, I mean, you can only do so much. But I mean it's it's always worth to try. I guess that I'm saying that. I know I've had probably fifty fifty luck at that when I spent messages like hey, coming from a fellow redneck man, you may want to change what you're doing. Sometimes it's receives well, sometimes it's not received at all, and I get unfriendedden blocked. So damn people are savage on the internet. I don't like what you're saying. Don't ever say anything to me again savage. Yeah, exactly where you can't get punched in the face on the internet. Man, that would solve a lot of problems. I hate to say it that way, but you think about it. When people act that the way they do in their cars, on the phone or on the internet, if they can get whacked in the noggain, No, there's no accountability, So there are some savages on there. Yeah, that's in the basement of your month's house. Do you ever feel like that? Is this? Like you have that great platform that you do. I mean, there's a lot of people watching what you do based on a lot of on a lot of reasons. But then at the same time that platform is this this Pandora's box that you open it up and next thing you know, a couple of assholes stroll through and and uh get ruined your day, or at least you get you fired up for a moment. Like sometimes I like having had as much of that as as some people have. But sometimes I'm I wonder if I'd say I pull off for a couple of months, would my hunting life be different when I feel less influential even though the people around me um that I'm hunting with our learned from me and I'm learned from them. Social media is it's the son of a bit. Yeah, I mean, and I talked quite a bit, and I mean, you know, who Aaron Nielsen is. He was the guy had on the podcast. He was like, if you look at trophy hunting, he's a he's got a photo in additionary beside, he's right there. And he was the guy brought on the podcast because I was like, you know, he put he has views, um, you know, uh, you know, nobody's living for sustiments off of meat in this whole meat eating, anti trophy hunting is going to be the end of of the outdoor industry. And and so I brought him on one for more context, like what exactly are you talking about? Because I was like, know, Aaron, I just shot a go and took a photo behind it. That was my trophy. And I don't have a problem saying that that. You know, that was important to me. And he was saying that we're going to be there. You know that the trophy hunting thing hiding behind it was um giving us a black guy that we needed to be proud of it. And and you know, he's obviously becoming a very trophy hunting in a large background and you guys are actually a sponsor of him and or he had Triggy count Outdoors, I think is what it is. But anyway, you know, talking with him, you know he stops on it aren't a whole lot different than other people's. That's how it's perceived or how he came across. And I just think that a good example. If um, you were to um say that I paid twenty five thousand, or raid it, I paid four hundred thousand dollars for the Montana sheep tag um that prostitution of an animal. It's sure fucking funds like it out the gate right four thousand dollars for one bullet. But in context that four hundred thousand dollars went to the conservation habitat. Um. Telling the story of where that money goes, how much it helps, probably gonna shed quite a bit of a different light on it than Yeah, there's a bunch of guys that show up in a building and bid on animals for a ridiculous amount of money so they can hang it on their wall and found their chest that they looked in. It comes across that way rather than saying and explaining that that goes to conservation and the betterment of habitat for wild sheep. Um. So it's all all about context and telling the story that to me than then it is anything else. I mean, I think you can really shoot on a good thing if you're not careful. Well we do. We allow that to happen, though, that ship would like you go to you know, I know you're not a trade show guy, but I go to SCI every year and there's some stuff at SCI that is just pretty appalling. Like I'll call it out straight up. I mean, I'm not I have no problem with saying, hey, s C, I clean up some of your trophy hunting ship, Like, just do that for for me and for Aaron, for anybody else listening like that. I was there this year and you walk by and there's a sign um for a dollar elephant hunt. I think it was something like that from an outfitter and below it it was like book a child sixteen and under or a military veteran and receive a free impala, it said, and it was like a gold lettering and a flashing sign. They're treating an animal. And I thought for a minute they were talking about a Chevy and Paula. I thought, damn, you get a Chevy and polyph on an elephant. That's a badass, um. But they were talking about an animal. They were selling an animal like it was part of a swag bag or some ship, and that kind of stuff. That's never gonna fly with normal society. They're never going to understand that because it's not as far as valuing an animal. That's not right as long as that stuff is allowed to exist inside of this great conservation resource that I see, I could be. It's never gonna be. It's always gonna be an oxymoron. Yeah, no, no, And I understand that. And I mean I I talked with um, you know, Brian about some of the things you guys had talked, like the grip and grin thing, like I told, you know, Brian got beat up about that badly, and I'm like, Brian, you know, damn good and will the moment you shoot an animal, you take a grip and grin. And he's like, I didn't say I didn't like him, you know, the bid had said he didn't like him, and then he explained it more depth and and and my thing was like, I think a grip and grin isn't the hunts if you have told the story from beginning to end. And I guess, like with the s c I, or like with anything else or like I talked about Wild Cheap, which they do a great job. I'm not I mean they do a great job with they do. But um, if you leave context out and someone just walks up and you see we're gonna you know, hey, you know, you get this prostitute and we're going to give you a free blow job while we're at it, Yeah, that sounds pretty bad, right, That's horrible. Where if if you say, hey, we're in it for veterans and show them are like um, and and maybe not show them the other free death to go along with it, you know, you probably could do a little bit better job still maybe have the end years old, but not look quite so bad doing it. Yeah. Yeah, And I think that the conversation with Brian on that podcast I've said in on on this podcast and in the last couple of episodes, like I will say that my frame of mind going into that podcast with Brian was not good. I've been sick for like seven days of the trade show flew and I was walking around a t A and I was seeing so many group and grinds on big billboards and just looking at this like, I don't you know, normally am I'm of the mindset like do it if you want, but just don't you know, if you're gonna do it in hunting, understand that it affects me. And I just I was sitting at the Hoyt booth and God bless hoy they make great bows, but they had these like the trading cards of every one of their pro ambassador athletes type folks with the with the group and grant on it. And I just I think I had a little bit had enough at that point and I probably said, you know, we should just quit doing this, where normally I would hedge that bet a little bit. But I'm glad it happened that way because that's kind of how I feel now. Um, And that's it's nuance. It's not just that one opinion, but it's you know, that's how I kind of how I feel well. And I think with what you're saying is is not um, I kind of think somewhat of the same things and somewhat different to where I think that one, you should never be ashamed of an animal you've taken. So when you look at trophy, what bothers me about trophy as a people immediately think, I mean true trophy, honey, I guess you look, definition is shooting the oldest age species, That the oldest animal in the group, right, like you're looking for the oldest species. But that it's a broad, very broad, very very broad hunting community of all different ability levels, of all different financial levels. And uh, you know, a trophy for a guy starting out is going to probably be a doe or a cow. Right, that's his his technically trophy. Well, I don't think he should hide. I don't think he should be ashamed of what he shout. I mean, I don't think that you should be ashamed of anything, any animal. Any A life is alife, and you know my thing isn't necessarily high behind grip and grins, but be proud of everything you do. And being ashamed of animals that you've taken because it's not big enough is just as bad for the industry is anything else, because it makes it look like my penis wasn't big enough. Today, I don't have enough stripes on my shoulder and I'm gonna put my head down because I only shot a cow. Ye. Well, I don't think that's good either. Um personally, I think that um, the community, you should be happy for anyone now don't give me your Um you got a hundred thousand followers on social media and your spirit of influence you only shot of shot of grouse. Yeah, I think that ship's bad too, right, I mean, what kind of a spokes and money for hunting if you don't know how to hunt? I think you might be not diving into a different rabbit hole. But um, I don't know that that's the greatest thing for hunting either, that that we have some people in the spears of influence that for hunting that don't really know how to hunt. I don't know that that's a good thing. But I think, um, you know, being proud of everything that you do, representing hunting in the right light, telling story about what you did, and everyone actually kind of getting along with that and being supportive is the is the going to be the best thing we have for the future. Rather than everybody making fun of each other and ship talking and everything else they don't know the text is going to really get us anywhere. Ye times already well, yeah, we've been probably beating the horse to death at this point. But I I would say, you know, it's there's the nuance thing, the grip and grint isn't It isn't just one thing. Like, there's a lot of things the ways that can show up. And I would always I always just what I would my opinion as it's evolved through. You know, from that conversation with Brian on is just that what you need to know what your potential for your audience is. If you understand the potential for your audience, then you're always gonna, you know, act accordingly. If the potential is a million people to see it, then you should we should be able to hedge a little bit of potential. Is just your buddy who you texted it too, then you can be a little more open with what you're saying. And then and and then just understand what the grip and grand is too people that aren't hunters. I just understand that and be aware of it and then act act accordingly based on your awareness of what what it means to people that don't do it. And if you can kind of get on those two planes. And you know, I'm not against the prideful showing of killing an animal. Crap, I've done it my whole life. Um, But I think, you know, I think even that conversation, I had a lot of feedback, people just who are thinking a little bit more about it than they did before. And I think that's really the only goal. Think about it a little bit more than you did yesterday, be more aware of of some of the things maybe you weren't so aware of yesterday, and then we'll all be better for it. And then ten years down the road, maybe this whole thing looks different than it those right now. Man. I hope and and I I you know again, like there's something. I mean, not everyone agrees, but we can agree to disagree and talk about I think that's great. And I think that again when you when you go down to I don't pick up whatever. I go down to the local mountaineering store and um, a guy asked me if I hunt, because I said, I need boosts that are capable or stiff because I'm gonna be carrying hunter. Plot asked why, and I said, well, I'm a hunter. And the next thing you do, I I flashed through seventy five photos of dead animals. That might be cool to him, but it also might be cool to him to start scrolling through and say, yeah, man, this is the maroon bells I was. I was actually one part of the four pass loop when I spotted this deer. You know, I was right on this summit. Actually there's whatever, and and then here's my camp, you know, and yeah, holy coward, we were a long way than it snowed like crazy. I think that, in my opinion, is perceived far better than seventy five photos of straight death right, because he sees what you did, he sees your hearts into it, he sees the training you did that you backpacked in or whatever it is um rather than just seventy five photos to standing behind big gear or big Elk or big whatever. And so I agree with you on some of that stuff. Coolheartedly. I do that when you walk in and all you see is giant dead ship with people behind it, that it can look really bad from a non perspective. And and and I and again I'm coming from a redneck background where I could get ship myself too. But again I just especially with photography and the hiking the backpacking side of things, I am more involved now with anti and non hunters by far than I thought I would ever be. And I know what I will argue to the death. I know what it takes to convert them. I know what and I've had great luck with it. And so that's where when guys start arguing with me, I'm like, look, it's not an argument. This happened yesterday, happened last week, and this is what I did. And as sure as ship wasn't showing a two well, I don't have a two ten inchmul here, But as sure as wasn't showing giant animals over and over, it was showing a sacrifice to dedication with training, explaining about shooting a bow, explaining about breaking down the animal, ex explaining about how much meat I brought home, um in comparison to here's my giant animal that had my boots. Now, yeah, that trophy hunting and that that is where I think we get a black guy. Well right, and you get and again I keep bringing them up. But Rogan is a good example. Rogan has been I've taken many grip and griends of Joe Rogan. Um besides thinks he's killed and he's taken some of me and vice versa. But rarely has anyone ever seen them. Sometimes, like Cam Haynes or John Dudl, theres somebody will post one um, but but Joe will never post one and I think he's thinking about just like what you're saying. I mean, they're like gripp and girls are kind of like trading cards that we can trade amongst ourselves. And that's great, and we all understand. Everybody that's hunted for any length of time that's in the community gets what they are trading back fourth and it's all great. But when you start sharing with people that have that aren't in our club, it's a little complicated. And so I think Joe's great example somebody who just doesn't share to his three million people that follow him on whatever social media, but he will share it amongst his buddies and amongst his family and friends. They see those photos because they know him and they know his intense. Um that's so, that's a good He's got a good, pretty good program working there, I think. Um So, Aaron, tell me a little bit about Kafaro, because you know, I know we've been railing on how to make hunting better. But um, I'm a bit of a pack junkie. I don't know if that's the right term, but I love I think packs and boots are the two things that are most specific to mountain hunting. Um, So tell me about you know how you got started with Kafaro and just what's going on over there. But it's kind of crazy, um how it all worked out. It was like a meant to be, UM saying. Patrick Smith started Mountain Smith, which was like a backpacking company, um years ago and he sold it, um and then started too far through and he Patrick said that he had three daughters, so he never had somebody to really take over the throne, so to speak. Um, the three daughters didn't hunt. Their husband's been really hunting. Um. I was reviewing a bunch of gear and backpacks and I guess it's eight years ago, No, six or seven years ago, now, whatever it was. I walked in finally got ahold of Patrick to test out some packs. We started talking and helped him with some designs and um, they kind of brought me on as I was working construction at the time. Is like a consultant slash sales rep. Kind of a position where I was making a little bit of money. And um, why I'm with the you know, the CEO and president now, um, and he took me on. I looked at him like a father and he One of the unique things with Patrick is one of my job descriptions as I will spend a hundred and fifty nine the year in the wilderness without a doubt, without fail um. And one of that things is that he he had pressed upon several things upon me. One was made in America, staying made in America. No matter what, we will always be American made, not just American made, but American components, American everything. Two was lead by example in by our customers, meaning I want you to be the fittest you can possibly be. I want you to be in the field as much as you possibly can. I want you packing out as many animals as you can. And I want you near death at least fifteen times a year to know what gear we can design to make you not near death the next year. Now, how often do you walk into a job like that where I lived to live in the woods, and then the guy that becomes your father slash boss says, hearing your acts staying out there a hundred fifty nights a year without fail Well, I mean so people are like you know, that's one of the things why people listen to me with gear is I mean, there's so much that I mean, I for me a hundred fifty nine the years the light year. Um, that's I mean, I've I've hit two twenty a few times and uh and uh you learn a lot when you're out there, and you learn a lot about designing your product. And so that's been a huge thing that he ingrained in my brain. And and you know, hopefully when I can't walk anymore, I'm going to pass this down to Frank, you know, my my partner, and crime where you can do it to these younger Yeah. I mean there's a lot of things there that are interesting. One, that's the dream job for anybody likes to go hunt and hike. And do you feel like back packing back country honey, whatever you want to describe that is was always part of your DNA and that's why you got there or did you at some point learn, you know, go from away from your redneck ways and just become dial Well I I say that, man. I never was a gun hunter, really, Um, I was when I was a kid. Um there was a my when I was fourteen. I it was the Youth Conservation Corps, something you did with the Forest Service. And I joined that, which is usually cleaning out porter parties and cleaning up state parks and the people on the trail crew knew me and asked if they could what paperwork they need to fill out to get this kid, meaning me on this trail crew. Well that changed my life forever because I hyped ten miles a day as a minimum, and all I did was carried a cross cut song and acts over my shoulders a fourteen year old kid cleaning off wilderness trails. Um in the midst of that, with my red neck upbringing is a you know, like dad driving around drinking, you know, basically shooting it out of the window. Um As I hyped in there's all these deer that I never saw, you know what I mean? Like my there's animals ever to we're back here. Well, so at an extremely young age, I learned how to backpack. And I mean, you know from from experts. Guys. These guys climbed everest. This was their side job, right, this is what they did to make money so they could go climb, so they could do whatever. And so I learned that extremely young. I did that all through high school for three months in my summer months. And the one that made me a bit more of a man because I'm swinging in an accident, you know how cross cuts on my hand it we had double buck and single buck saws and uh. Once I did that, that kind of trance and I and I was in the army for a while um as well, and that just taught me how to get beat up UM a little bit better. But all of those things combined the moment I got out of the military, well, I got fat first, but then I got super fit and all I could do with backpack. All I did was backpack like over. No mountain was too high, no lake was too far. We pack and flow to be you know we you know, I mean on a very I was broke as a joke, but I always backpack hunted and so that was like just my thing. And then as time went on, I was seeing some videos from Cameron and south Cox and and backpack hunting wasn't really known. Now backpack hunting is known, and you can't you know, I mean, you run into people constantly on the wilderness. So this job for me, I mean, Patrick's told me many times, he's like, You're the son I never had, and really a godsend for my family because you or everything I needed to take over from the company. Now I'm a bit wilder probably than they wanted. But you know it was a perfect fit. Um so it was great. Off there for a minute, but I love it. It was great. I can hear you can hear it your voice, man, you can hear it. You love it. And that's freaking as somebody who you know, any product of any company, that's that's all. It really matters that the people making it love the thing that it's made or and that comes through and your packs for sure. How much has it packs changed over the years that you've been doing and how much do you feel like they will change it? I can I can tell you right now. The pack I used to hold it. I used to carry an old army rucksack to the deer stand when I was sixteen, and now it's a lot different than that. But how are they changing. Well, they've changed a lot in the sense of the bags and the materials are changing. The the platform that Patrick started with us far the suspension, I've changed some of the design that the bases there. Um really, I've changed materials. I've changed some of the connection points. The base design hasn't changed at all. The bags have changed, the materials changing, I mean technology right, like hydrophobic foam so it doesn't think as bad waterproof material, tougher material that will last longer. You know, the the never ending rabbit hole of lighter weight UM. You know, we're able to push things far farther and farther UM, which is really one of my my job when we go off the deep end on lightweight, pushing something to as lightweight as possible. You know, that's my job to go pack out twenty three animals a year to see can it take it? Right? Like we just came out with a new crazy lightweight frame and uh, you know that was the main job is I had to have fifty animals in that frame in a minimum amount of miles. That's how we testing um before it would even pass muster to go on to the next level. Most companies don't do that ship anymore, man. I mean they designed it in an office and go hike ground and that's it. Well, you know, as we change these things, they also have to be vetted and so next time in the field and boots on the ground. I probably be able to walk when I'm sixty, but damn, I had a lot of fun testament stuff out in the meantime. You know, yeah, I just keep thinking about your gig and your minimums. Your mandatory minimum hiking hours is just freaking badass, is It's I just ordered some boots from a boot company and they sent me a set for free to try to review, and I fell in love with him. And I called I said I need two more sets, and they're like, well you mean, I'm like, oh, I'll burn through these things in no time. They're like, dude, it's one of our most durable boots. And I said, yeah, you know again, so I need two more sets. I don't care what to pay for him. I need him because I'm putting that many miles on the ground in one season, the astronomical amount. And uh so yeah, I mean it's definitely some crazy standards with Patrick just putting me up against, but it keeps me out of the office. Yeah, So, how are it like people out there that aren't aren't hitting your minimums? I think, man, just another rabbit hole. I was just thinking about guys that I know that have spent that many days in a mountain during your maybe Remy Warrens another guy who would say like a two just but he's a guide and so he's not it's not probably not in the same way that you're doing it, but just just it's amazing and the knowledge. I'm glad you're sharing all that knowledge, man, because that's that's important stuff. Because you're lucky. I'm sure you know, lucky. You get to do what you do. You earn earn your place at Kafaro, and it's it's just badass to hear that. Is there any suggestions you've give the people for packs of the guys who are just looking to get into it and go out west, is there one thing they ought to look for when they're selecting a pack. I mean, I think it's the same as boots. You need to make sure one they fit. Um, you can't walk in I mean I hate say you can't walk into a Capella's or a bass Pro or source of warehouse or whatever. Um and get a pack that's really fitted properly, which is hugely important for backpack hunting. So you want to make sure and talk to somebody that actually knows what they're doing. UM, make sure you get the packs fitted correctly. Make sure you get the proper size. You know and understand how the pack works. You understand what a load lifter is. Um understand how the compressions straps work, how it connects, how to adjust it, all those different things. And it's no different if you buy a camera and you keep it on Ottawa all the time. It'll work, but you're not going to get the most out of it you can. So you want to make sure you know it's fitted correctly, that you get the most out of it, because it leaves you more comfortable, happier, more longevity, and able to bounce right back when you're done with your hunt rather than being bloody, beat up and in pain. And that's the same way with boots. I mean you brought boots up in the same way. I mean you get a boot that doesn't fit, it will make your life help. So you want to make sure the same way with a pack. What's what's your boot of choice right now? Oh man? I was a scarper guy forever and then I just um han Fog sent me a set of mockra Um and you want to talk about I think I might make love to that, but I want to put it on. Immediately. I looked at my fiance it was like, this boot is amazing. The next day we did Cardio with sixty five pounds and not far. But it's flew over a mile straight up, and it's a thousand foot game. But you know I'm gonna get heel rubbed with that. I'm gonna have arch problems. I mean, that's where you're really gonna see it. Boot not broken it at all, flew up the mountain the almost record time. And uh, I just I can't say enough about that specific boot. But I like a stiffer boot. So if you're wann't a really flexible one, that's not the boot for you. Spell the name of it. I've never heard that before. Um han vob So it's h A n w A g um makaro, which is m A k A r A. I see you, all right, I'm looking. I gotta look him up now. This is a kind of boot guy that I am too to see it. You're kind of in the built in the same is the Scarpolsportiva Salewa, same region. And I mean, I don't you know, there's a big you know, as far as boots go. Um, I don't know. I used to when I didn't know what I was doing, going and buy a quote unquote hunting boot, which is, in my opinion, one of the worst things you can do. Um. You know, you you really want to go to a mountaineering store and you probably want to buy a backpacking boot. I mean, nothing wrong with the camera boot that goes up to your knee, but for backpacking' probably not gonna be super happy. So you go to an ex boot. Yeah, that's what I mean when we went. I went to Nepal last year and that's the first time I discovered Lost Portiva. I mean, you know, but a new about scarpor I had seen a bunch of guys, seen a couple of guys in Kodyak wearing scarpas and was interested. I had worn uh mindels for a while and had just got some crispies. It was just kind of feeling through those. But then you start to get into, like you said, you break into the that mountaineering world and you start to learn about loss Fartiva and learn about some of those brands. So I got a pair of Aspartiva approach boots for for Nepal and that kind of switched on the next level of thinking when it comes to what's on your foot, I mean a lot of this. That's when when I need advice for backpacking. Very few people do I go to, you know, I go to those guys that climb everything, um, big wall climbers like um. I mean, those guys know they're ship right. So when I need like a state of the art gear assessment that's above and beyond what I have, I need a guy that's been closer to desk than I have. Right, it's pushing the limits far beyond where I am. And guys that climb are a good a good a good bounce back, and so I usually go down. I have a friends at the local mountaineering store, and you know, I bounced it off of them. I asked them questions and they and I'm going to get position. I get gear a year before anyone else even sees it on the market, like whether it be clothing from backpacking companies or hunting companies. You know, I get gears so far ahead in the testing phases, which is great, um play or be boots or anything else. And so I get I gets really in depth looks at gear before anyone else's. It's a great position to be into them gear. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great advice for people that you know, like I said, packs and boots are the two things that I've there. If you're not a pack company, don't make packs. If you're not a boot company, don't make boots. I've said that for for as long as that as long as I've kind of been trying to get serious about this whole thing, and I believe that whole hardly. And that's that's a great advice for people, like if you're out there and there's some experts in your town, if you live in a mountain town and there's a mountaineering store somewhere, or even for me, I think if I'm getting, you know, last minute supplies for a backpack trip, I go to r a I before I go to Cabela's every freaking day. Um, just just for the general backpack and stuff that they have, whether it's civil lightweight silverware, or you know, anything that goes with being in the in the back country. I think there's just better quality stuff in that in that outdoor reck space when it comes to back country gear, right, No, No, I I agree, Um, I mean the clothing is the same way. I mean, anyone that says any hunting clothing right now wasn't copied off of backpacking company's a liar, Like it's just straight up how it is. Um and of course my opinion, but the Patagonia are one fleece hoodie. I can name seven hoodies on the market and camera right now. They look a whole lot like the Patagonia are one police Is that wrong? Is that bad? No? And it's not bad, but a lot. I mean, all the clothing we're wearing, this covered in camo was copied off of a backpacking company, whether it be mamut Ore, Carrick, Um, you know whoever, Patagonia, it was copied off one of those based backpacking companies. For the most part, there's not a lot of again, in my opinion, there's not a lot of new way of thinking. When it comes in the hunting world, it's usually copied off of a backpacking company. Yeah, yeah, a boost the same way. I mean, you know, I wouldn't if I was going on a ten day backhuntry trip in the Missouri Breaks. There's not a whole lot of stuff serious gear at Cabela's that I would want to buy. And I've tried, and I've went there and it's chopped around. I'm thinking, Yeah, if I'm sitting in a tree stand Jason Dear, There's a lot here that I could could use. But when you're really talking about getting back there and needing your stuff to work, it's it's tough, and almost in the hunt community almost be embarrassed to say you shop at are I all the time, but I do. Yeah, oh yeah. There was just a huge post about r e I because you have very anti guns dating in a bunch of other stuff, and I try not to get I definitely talked to I'm an anti Jet Boiled guy because I've not had great vibes back from the higher ups I've talked to at Jet Boil about being pro hunting, and so for example with that, I do do some background checks. I try to support hunting friendly companies. Primus is a prime example. I try to support Primus in MSR as much as I possibly can. The same is Scarpa and Hanvog because they have guiding outfitter programs for discounts. Primus is not afraid to support hunting. Convog is the same way UM and so those companies I try to support even though they're not a hunting company, they are pro hunting and they're not afraid of that and that's important to me as well. Um, you know, and so I tried it. I try to I try not to review a lot of gear that's shipping on hunting, that's for sure. I try to focus on you know, it's a backpacking company, that it's one that is pro hunting or doesn't crap on hunting. Yeah, and I think Black Diamond has been I used to work with somebody that was working at Black Diamond and he described them as firmly anti hunting. And I have several Black Diamond headlamps that I wear, and I've seen a lot of other hunters wearing Black Diamond headlamps or trekking poles or whatever. And Cabella sells Black Diamond gear at some La Lana. I haven't looked into it to see if really how deeply anti hunting they are, but I'm I'm sure just from is evidence that there's there's some seeds there. So yeah, I mean, just knowing that stuff as much as a consumer couldn't know it, you're gonna know everything, but just understanding the dynamics there is important. And I'm not embarrassed were a Black Diamond headlamp, But next time I go to buy one, and it's not going to be a black diamond, that's for sure. Ye. No, no, I'm in the same same boat. And again I've had guys say, hey, you know you wear prawn as I own pants, and we were told they were anti hunting, and I'm like, well, they have doing the best here, like don't set gold right of trying. You know, I gotta trying to have to let people know what a good discount is on pants too, and they're cheap, so take it easy on me. But yeah, no, I mean I definitely agree and trying to do the same things. And the jet Boil thing, that's funny. People are sending emails saying, hey, this is their response, and we asked them, like, well they like hunters money, I'm sure that's their response. But I mean I talked to him with the O. R Show, and believe me, they were not grow hunting at the O R Show. And these weren't sales reps. These were very high ups in the Jet Boiler and so I'm like, hey, ms are in primus, We'll tell you and without the doubt they are not against hunting, and so I try to spread that word, like I said as well, yeah. I mean, and we've been talking about that. It's a good Another good talk to hit on is UM, I don't know how much you spent, you know, obviously it sounds like you spent a lot of time around that outdoor retailer crowd. And I just think I think it's important that we reach out to that crowd and connect with them, whether it's on public lands or gear or whatever that whatever the tie that binds is, I think going forward for hunters, that's going to be a huge one. Um, what have you in your work in that world? What have you seen? I mean, in my work, I'll tell you I've seen nothing but really acceptance. A few I got in a few scenarios where there's some ignorance that I had this straight now, But once I got it straightened, it was all good. Um. But in my work and in that industry, it seems like people are curious about hunting. They don't really understand it, but they're not completely against it if it's put in the right light. Don't I agree a percent? I mean, it's those long lines where we're talking about. I think that you know when you when you when you're at the doorway. UM, to get somebody to let you in their house. You know, you don't want to show up but the door with a beer and a gun in your hand. You show up the flowers and some cupcakes, right you You want to get in the doorway. And so when there's that conversation, um, and I have to deal with it, I'm sure as much as you do, well, you're not as much for quite a bit, whether it be you know, people selling us material or buckles or sewers or whatever. Um, you know, they find out where a honey company. I want to intrigue them and I want them to see what we're doing, be in goal. And so when I call him on a SAT phone because I'm about to place a dollar on material material order on the side pop of the mountains, I want them to fill intrigue. Did holy cow, this guy called me on a SAT phone. And so when I get back and send them photos, they're a cooling ship. We were talking to him right there and they understand and not just feed them the two percent kill shot picture. At the end of it, I want them to know the whole thing of what we're doing, what we're about, what we stand for. And so it's it's been very well received with who I've dealt with, um, you know on my innes things. That's good. Yeah, me too. And YETI I mean, like I said, we've saying before. I mean, we deal with a lot of top low athletes in that world and a lot of companies. I had a conversation with some folks at Patagonia where they weren't really aware of Pittman Robertson. They weren't aware of how hunters get back to conservation. I mean, they were aware that we say that that that was one of our talking points of why hunting is is a positive thing, but they kind of rolled their eyes at the oxymoronic nature of like killing is good for the ones that are all left after we've shot the ones we want. Um. But once we you know, once I gave some depth and breath in the conversation, they were all cool with it, and they were and not apologetic, but understanding of where they where the misconceptions were in the beginning. So I just think, and I think that's a huge I mean, what's an eighty seven billion dollar communities You're talking about everybody that goes outside that doesn't have a fishing pole or a gun in their hands or a bow in their hands. So they're they're a huge crowd that I think is maybe seen as generally anti hunting, and then they're not. I don't think they are as a croup. Yeah, No, I mean I and I get I wish what you do is far more when you're talking about with outdoor personalities, is a much higher gets in what I'm dealing with, Um, you know what I we we we we customate packs for women. Mountain climb was far more than men because they can't get them backpacking pack to victim. So I can only imagine what you're dealing with on that side of things as far as the different personalities. And I've only watched Conrad at Jimmy on TV right about Jimmy wants at the local mountaineering store. But I mean, you want to talk about I think Jimmy has two friends and one point two million followers. Yeah, obviously a lot of people follow him, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure now, and I've you know, I know that we were able to introduce guy like Mark c Cat to Conrad Anchor when they both were here in Austin for one of our ambassadors Summits and next thing, I know, Uh, Conrad's taken seecat climate um and it's cool man. And Conrad is the first person to you know, in my brief encounters with him and just you know very he's a very professional, quiet guy. But I think he'd probably the first person to question hunting but also the first person to accept it if he did it the right way. So, I mean that's in in Conrad Anchor is a freaking legend um and a leader in that space and pretty outspoken when it comes to that stuff. So I would just use him as a good example of somebody who's open to it. We just presented the right way and and we'll get it done. Next thing, we know, we'll have a bunch of allies on on that side of things. That's a pretty influential group of folks that were Patty going, you're where north Face or or where our tereks or whatever that might be. Yeah, no, no, I agree for for sure. I mean we'd we have a couple of guys that are big wall climbers that hunt with us. Fred Baum is one of them, and he never hunted a day in his life and big wall climber, and I mean he's a freaking nature right as far as you know, as far as physically, and he just woke up one day and decided he wanted to bow hunt. You know, the guy was hard to kill the two d and three inch mule deer, his first mule deer, eleven miles in um. Obviously he had the skill set to get back there and survive, and then you know, he could shoot bow enough to hit it. But he's got a pretty good grasp and in a lot of different industries. But it was amazing to talk to people like that and what got him going and kind of like Grogan the same way, like what sparked the intr And I think that could have changed dramatically if it was the entry into it was a piss pour one. But instead it was a good one. They heard what they wanted to hear, They got the spark interested in, got them interested in the one thing might do another. And that's a fine example of you know, once you're at the doorway and make sure you're you're inviting someone in and not scaring the ship at him. Yeah, well yeah, I think that's that's the best way to describe the whole conversation. Man. And it's a good thing. I had something I was driving back here before we did the podcast, and one thing I wrote down that I wanted to ask you was what kind of crazy? There are different things? I imagine. This is what I imagined just from knowing from from what I've seen, is what kind of crazy inventions are crazy? Stuff is in your pack that other people aren't doing? Are things that over the years you developed that that was something that's always in your pack. That's uh that you feel like unique or something that other other guys aren't pulling off? Um, oh you've been like for packing list, Yeah, packing lists, some gear piece I know. I'm sure you've got some some idiosyncrasies, like in your gear list of things you do that are a little different. I mean, as far as game changers go, it's probably surprising. One of those things is Luco tape. Um, most people haven't heard of it. I got turned on into a mountain climber years ago. When you have foot problems, Luco cape will stay stuck to your foot for seven days in wet conditions. And if you ever have blisters or problems, I mean, you put a band aid on and wrap Luco tape over the top. You have problems and no more. Um so, I mean one of the things because I've had such problems with hell rubbed it is probably anti climactic as this is um Luco tape literally has been a game changer, you know for me, um it's been nine day difference, you know, as far as maybe other things that that, uh, I guess we're you know, game changers. Not to pimp out too far too much, but uh we have a wood stove that waste two pounds twelve ounces. Yeah, you know, obviously you have to have wood so to do it so above treeline it's not working. But having the ability to be able to have a heated sheltering, UM, that's another game changer. I've got a a kin foot long well it's not quite ten but tin foot long shelter. Um. You know, it's six ft wide that I can get a hundred degrees inside if I want to to dry out my gear. You know, that's been another huge benefit for me for longevity in the field. That's huge. We used I've used as before. I used one with Kulkraner and Kodiak a couple of Decembers ago when it was wins. What do we have I don't know. It was like eighty mile in our winds. I mean we were we were tucked up under this little ridge that we were blocked. We had eighty million our winds and we had negative ten degree temperatures hunting blacktailed deer. And and I think he said, you gave him that the stow. We had our ten and if we didn't have that thing, we'd have been screwed, that's for sure. Yeah. Actually, cool Cole called me once because he said it wasn't burning correctly and whatever way he's burning, clouded the spark Er rester. Hell, it could have been with you. He was calling me and who were on the phone, and he's like, it's smoking, and my dude, if you checked the spark Errester. And then immediately he was like, all right, we're good. I gotta go alright, cool man, But I mean that's a huge you know, if you you witnessed it yourself, that's a huge Yeah. Um, you know after that, I mean again, I'm not trying to pimp out there an interchangeable knife. UM. I used one called the Tito. Get their tito, everyone pronounce it. Um. I don't understand guys have like the the knife handed down from their grandfather's grandfather down to him. But you know, having the ability to have an interchangeable blade knife from you're breaking down multiple animal another game changer, um you know for me. Um. Another one to communication that DOLORMI will mount garment in reach. Um that that's a lifesaver, especially when you're trying to run a business from the side of the mountain. I also carry I also have a uh in a radium go which is a satellite hot spot basically, um, you know, And then I can navigate from a watch. Now I do mostly manual lad now, um you know, so I really just need attended to good coordinate UTM grid to plot it out on the map. I don't have to carry a GPS. Well now I have a sun too, um traverse south. I used to run a four or one. But the point being is I can navigate so fast with such a small amount of weight. Has been another huge thing for me as well. Is there I'm just googling everything bookmark like what you're saying. We'll put a list out of this stuff, um in the blog post for this. But so the Tito knives, is there any reason you going with those? I mean, you're rolling with sixty A blades just like the regular avalon. Are you going number twenty two s or what? I gotta keep it somewhat secret. But he's got a new blade that's more unbreakable. But yeah, so I usually carry sixty and twenty kes. I don't carry as many of the the caping blades that I do the others. But the I ran Piranha forever um, but the knife would get gunked up and it was a little bulkier. Well, the Tito I can actually put in my chest. I run a Laska Guy Creation chest harness. There's a pocket in the back of it. I just leave the blade off and I have those flat blades in their packages, and I can run that knife flat in that chest. It's as flat as a blade of a butter knife. Um. And then you know when I when I take something or you know, when something is on the ground, I just popped that blade on and so it weighs less. There's no gunk there, it's easy to clean. And again it's low profile. So that's one of the reasons left. That is the main reason that that title has been like a huge benefit in comparison to a foldable. Um, I this is just a flat piece, so it's super handy. Yeah, that's I'm saying. I'm just looking at that. Now I'm putting some stuff in a cart. I'm gonna get that knife flux badass. Um. But that al Aska guy creations. What's different about that? I mean is that I mean it's changing a little bit of from a he started it all for one, I mean everyone's pretty much copied him. Um. But the reason I like it. A lot of people don't like the They make a little profile one, but I wear a little bit bigger one. So try Ox Saint tablets. I carry an inside this Triox Saint tablets. I mean you can fart in it'll light that is huge. It'll burn in water. And so for a firestarter survival, I carry a Trax Saint tablet in that chest rig. I carry a petsel E light, which is this tiny headlamp that wass a half an hour. I don't know that I've ever changed the battery on one. I mean, you're not gonna be spotlighting from two out, but it'll keep you alive. I keep that in there. That the Tito knife or Title knife, some extra blades. I actually have a garment four oh one, um GPS watch that I carried in that as well, your tags basically in a flint and steel or a lighter. So I can survive for quite some time with what's in that chest rig And I also like the fact that it covers the lens caps of my optics. But I mean just the fact of what I have in there. If I get separated my from my pack, one I have a GPS unit either on my wrist or in my chest harness that's got my GPS mark. Then I don't know how many times I've dropped my pack when I stock the fox come in and one around like an idiot. I don't have that problem anymore. Um. And then obviously being able to break the animal down with what's on your chest is a big one. And being able to start a fire. Um. So you have some key essential things in that and that's that chester does not leave my side at any time. In the optics are the least important part of it. Yeah, that's the first I've heard that that. I love that. I love that analogy. If you've got to have what's on your chest or what's in your pockets, even then it is more important to you. What what model I'm doing some shoppings. Everybody can just just bear with me. What model for that Alaska Gay Creations? Do you know it's called the grizzly. Yep, yeah, I see it here. Cool I have. I have a CoDIAK and a grizzly. Actually that I have a CoDIAK cub, which is for you know, basically spotting stock outside the truck, but the grizzly in the in the CoDIAK or that's who I run the know. Are you running? Have you ever run high power of box? Or you run always running a spot or out on the mountain. Yeah, I so, man, I'm I'm pretty optics up. I always run tins on a tripod um, but a lot of times i'm a hubblefing in. So I packed ninety five around a lot um and so, depending upon what we're doing, I run tins in the ninety five. I've run that ninety four forever. I've run a lot of other spotters, but I mean that ninety five with me a lot and um sometimes I'll run fifteen like um, you know a lot of times scouting will actually pack in the nifteen and ten. But for the most part, like if the zombies come and I gotta grab three to pick them ountain pop their heads off, I'm grabbing my tins in the nine. Yeah that's kind of I'm the same way, almost almost exactly the same. But I've hunted with Ronella and Incous of your country and he was running those outdoorsmen um tripods and he was popping its fifteens on there and kicking my ass on spotting. So in that Outdoorsman tripods, like, I actually just picked up a really right stuff, which is a ridiculously Chris tripod, but it was for the system for photography and glassing. But yeah, I mean, you get fifteens on a tripod, you're gonna do some damage. Um. I don't think you can be outglassed with fifteens, just for the simple factor power the field of view. Um, you know there's a limit to them. You also need to spotter. But you know, if you're not a trophy hunter. Um, you know when I say trophy, if you're not counting the inches right, like you're like, oh, that's a good deal, I'm gonna go shoot it. Probably not needed. You can see plenty with tens or fifteen. Yeah, that makes total sense. We'll have to get you to give us as much of the gearless as you'll divulge, because that's stuff. Um. You know, I really just got into back country. Really what I can consider, you know, serious back country stuff here in the last two or three years. But that's one of my favorite parts is going through my system and tweaking at every single hunt and getting it better and understanding how to get lighter and how to get even You just talking about the gear that's on your chest. Hopefully people listen to this, think about that, think about how that could change the game for you where you where a certain gear lives on your body when you're out there for weeks on end. I mean give you an example, um, for people listening to an example. Yeah, I generally never dropped my pack anyway until the final approach. But you dropped your pack for the primal approach. You take the shot, adrenaline takes over. You make a less than perfect shot. A lot of times you're gonna chase after that animal. Adrenaline is flowing. You dropped down a cliff. Okay, you dropped down that cliff, and now you can't get back up it. You've got an animal down there. You've got yourself down there and you've got no pack, and you've got a long ways to hook up and around just to get out of there. Okay, not a problem, right, Well a storm blows in. Now you've got no clothing, You've got an animal on the ground. You've got to figure out what's what, who's too and you need to figure it out quick because it's going to take you a long time. And you've got no rain gear and so you can break the animal down. Now you can eat the animal. Hell boodycause you've got a kniphone, you've got a way to build a fire, and you've got a GPS to get you back home. Quicker. That happens every year, two hundreds of people at a NACT scenario, and most people take off and they've got lint in their pocket and that is it. Well, everything is on my chest that I need. And another thing we've done is Cafar has built a lot of lids that work as final approach packs. So when you do drop your your pack, we have one called the Native that I designed that goes along with that chest rig to throw my puffy jacket in my rein gear on a final far stock so I even have that next level of survival in case I get pinned down for a long time, and especially with the recurve where you have to get really close getting pinned down for five, six, seven hours, is it very possible? And so in that I've got my t shirt, my smile, and my sandwich and then I've got my chest rig that's got everything else. Yeah, that's huge. It's just piece like the systematic nature of how you pack your stuff, and I've I've kind of gotten to that. I've got so many stuff sacks with all kinds of different stuff, and I started color coding things and marking things with tape and getting really really ridiculously intricate. But that's part of it, man. Part of living out of a backpack, which you've done a million times more than I have. Part of living is being organized because that can be the you know, the difference between success or not success. And that's a great example that you just gave. You know, having your ship together can be warm and and kind of dialed in or shivering and really knocked out into what that animals do and just trying to stay alive. Yeah. Yeah, And if you watch like Frank and I go at it when we head in. It's it's it's really it's an art of how this the camp gets set up, where it gets set up, why, who's doing what and when in a rhythm um, unlike you'll see really with a lot of other you know, people going hunting. You know, there's a system we have in that system is very precise and it and it works very well. And you know, the more you do it, the better the system gets. And we're lucky enough we get to do we can do it pretty good. Yeah. Well, unfortunately for me now I'm going down this rabbit hole with all of I'm writing down everything you mentioned. Everybody listener will post it up, But for me tonight it's alrighty late in the evening. I'll probably spend the next hour going going down the gear rabbit hole. But I love it, man, I love it. And it's just it's another thing about hunting that you can freaking love. That's just another thing to get wrapped up in of all the ridiculous things that we get wrapped up, wrapped up in. So I appreciate the insight on that and um, the inside and everything else. Man, this has been This may be the longest hunting collective podcast ever for damn good reason. It's a scary conversation. Yeah, well, no, I'm glad you have me on. And yet we'll have to do another one and just talk gear because I can talk to that. I know. How long do you do? How long are the photocasts? Do you guys ever do like three or four hour ones like Rogan does? No, No, not that, not really. Um, you know, but I haven't had went on there um on that long where I knew I couldn't get him back, and so a lot of times I'm like, all right, well, we'll get you back next week. We had a guy named Harold Farrenbrook. He's killed more ships than smallpox with a re curve and uh, it's relatively unknown the some of them us just got a cell phone for the first time. In fact, we hated each other when we first met because I told him I get him a pack and he's calling me and I'm texting him and he sends me to skated email. You're blowing me off, And I'm like, dude, I've texted you like twenty times and he's like, I don't own a cell phone, dude. It's two thousand seven teams to fuck you mean you own a cell phone? Well, it's just how he lives. He's unworldly, he's unbelievable. He's just amazing. Man, we get on right now, well having him, I think we've had him on three times when we're still not board yet, So we could have easily pulled a four or five hour podcast. But that's the great thing about this this podcast thing. You can do it forever, man, And it's not to me, you know this. I think this will be episode number ten or something like that. And to me, it's just one long conversation just keeps going. A lot of the same stuff comes up. So people I listen to a lot. I'm sure you're the same way. But this is one long, kick ass conversation. And I'm sure you know you can look back on this, and I can look back on mine years from now, and kind of we'll probably be smarter, maybe we'll be dumber, who knows, but we'll probably be smarter and better hunters and better people and look back on some of the things we said and did and laugh. But man, it's cool to have it all recorded. Yeah, No, for for sure, definitely. You know I talked about writing the book, right, like your book, the book of your life and the different chapters. It's kind of a book inside of a book because if you're writing your your different chapters, now you have a podcast in one of them. So it's kind of cool because, yeah, the documentation of everything that goes on, everything you say, I look back at ones that Brian and I did and even how things have changed, even gear like you know, things change in life, things you learn different things that it's always mating. You look back in a podcast is definitely a great way to do that. Yeah, man, Well, I definitely uh in big fan of years and appreciate everything you do. And we've got to have at least if not a beer or six. Uh, I spend some time on the mountains. Sounds like I'd learned a ton and and either way, I appreciate everything that you mean to this world. And I gotta get a far pack and run around the mountin with you. Yeah, no, that sounds like a plane man. Yeah, we'll have to plan a hunt together sometimes, something extreme where we're close to death. Those are always a good one, definitely. I Once you do that, you just want to take it further every time I've I was close to death last year a couple of times, and uh, this year, I haven't yet been, so I'm not quite as happy with with with life. So I'm with you, man, I'm there. I've got an opening on a goat and hunt this year, so maybe you can join on that one. That should be interesting. I got a lot of new gear I'm about to buy for that hunt. So do all right, dude, appreciate everything? Yeah, no, thanks for having me on, man, and definitely the fan of yours as well, and I definitely wanted to link up cool talk soon. Right. That's it. That's all number ten in the books. We made it to double digits. We've got about twelve hours a little bit more than twelve hours of hunting conversation in the books, with some freaking awesome guests. You know. I'm sure there's lots of milestones and podcasting. I don't know that ten is any bigger than nine or eleven, but I think every time I put one of these out, I feel like there's my stone out there. And so I want to thank Aaron Snyder for being guest number ten and for providing a lot of insight for this conversation. And he just talks about some of these issues in a different way. It strikes me that a guy like Shane Mahoney or a guy like Charles Post, who were former guests of this podcast, speaks so differently about the same issues, but they're still driving at the same point that Aaron is um than he is at at his core, a good person and a good guy who talks to really about anything and hunting. So I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I really did. I didn't know Aaron very well going into this. I feel like I want to get to know him a lot better afterwards. I was very, very impressed by everything he had to say and just who he is and what he means the hunting industry. So hopefully we can have a good strike up a great relationship here at the Honey Collective with Aaron Snyder, and hopefully all of you are starting to flow with us and enjoy these conversations as they come out every week. If you want to hear more, you can go to the Hunting Collective dot com. As always you'll find our boy, Stephen Ranella, Remy Warren, John Dudley, all Remarkus, Shane Mahoney, Charles Post Sam so hold Man. There's just a lot of them tend to be exact, and you'll find them all there at the Hunting Collective dot com. Wells some articles and videos to supplement them. Uh, you can go to Stitcher and two iTunes. Hopefully by the time this airs will have Google Play in the mix, so I have YouTube in the mix. We're talking about a lot of things, trying to get this up on all the platforms that needs to be on, So stick with us on that. If there's something that you would like to hear that you're not hearing, Holler will make it happen. Heading to Boise, Idaho tomorrow morning for the back country hundreds of Anglers rendezvous, so be there Thursday and Friday. Uh, this will probably go out Thursday morning. So hopefully you're listening to this and you're headed over to the rendezvous, I'll see you there. I'll be hanging out all over the place. Hopefully I'll see you at that creative. Then until next time, episode number eleven coming at you. Stay tuned for that. See you eight

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