00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, what's up all its people. I'm Tyler Jones and this is the back Country mini series from the Element podcast Casey fill them in. Since we're diving head first into the back country hunting this season, we decided to call in some help and talk to some experts that know how to crush it in the back country. So make sure and subscribe. And if this is helpful, we'd love for you guys to give us a five star rating. And and I Tunes reviewed absolutely. Now let's get into it because I still have a lot of Mountain House flavors to try before September gets here. Alright. On the show today, we've got Aaron Snyder with Cafar International Errands and what's going on, dude? Not too much? Well, I left a lie A lot is going on. Actually Monday morning, I was an organ all weekend doing a seminar on backpack hunting, so I'm getting caught up. Oh well, it sounds like you're appropriate to have on the show. Then if you just did a seminar and what we're gonna talk about, so that's good. Is that something that you do just out of the goodness of your herd or is it a good opportunity to go home him or what were you doing? Man? I generally try to not ever do them because I'm not very good at uh, social environments with a lot of people. But um, no, vote Bot Tech is a dealer for us now and I'm from Oregon, so I was able to go home and I see my mom. So that was good. But um, I mean, I don't mind doing seminars when I have time. Right now, it's super busy. Um, but it was good. I did it with Phelps with self skin calls and um, you know he's longtime friends, so it was a good deal. Yeah. Cool, that sounds like fun. I guess. Uh, A lot of people learned a lot of stuff. Those are the other are two dudes that do a lot of elk hunting, and uh that's what we try to do, but we're kind of far from from the mountains. We'll get out there as often as we can. Suh. But I do kind of like, um there in Snyder's story. You know, I learned about you from a from a different podcast, and uh, and then when y'all started the Kafaro Cast, that's kind of excited, uh, just because I got to you know, it's a little bit more of you get to kind of have a little bit more inside as to who you are and what you really do and stuff us. And uh so, can you tell the audience a little bit about, you know, kind of how you grew up and uh kind of come from that blue collar side of things. Yeah. Yeah, I grew up in a town of about a hundred and eighty people in Oregon, right in the Cascade Mountain range. It's a logging community and uh, I think uh my dad made a whopping fourteen hundred dollars a month for a family of four. So there was a lot of mushroom picking and weed whackings, board school clothing like that. UM. And then I joined the Army when I was um seventeen or eighteen young and then I was in the Army for a few years and then got out and worked UM construction, UM commercial glass and iron working more commercial glass, basically high rises and curtainmalls things like that. And then uh, you know what, in the middle of that, I started doing a lot of you know, I was always in the field lodder in the wilderness, so I started doing a lot of gear testing and and ound out a lot of um, well, a lot of companies lie. Basically, there's a lot of sales pitches and gimmicks, and there's just certain things that do work and that don't. And so I started kind of relaying what I was finding out on forums and things like that. And somewhere in the middle there I tested out of Kafaro pack and and met Patrick the owner, and uh, with a lot of twists and turns down the side. Now several years down the road, I'm I'm the president of the company. So um did that by living in the woods too much? Was barely graduating high school. Uh, there is hope for some of you out there. Man, what an American story. Yeah, now that's cool. Man, that's good. I come from a construction background. That's still how I make my living, you know is Uh, I do a lot of remodeling, build some houses along the way and stuff. So I don't know, I think it. Uh getting out and uh, you know, busting your your thumb a few times with a hammer really can kind of teach you a few things. Uh. What do you think that you kind of learned from from that background that kind of helps you more in that business world today? Just hard work really, I mean, UM, I hate to say that cliche, you know whatever, but I mean it's, you know, the harder the more you put into something, the more you you know, you get out of it. And I just try to keep going with that, I guess, you know, just try to put as much work in as I can and and uh, you know, my main goal, uh, surprisingly enough, is get the hell out of the industry and go hunting and not have to be on social media and just live in the woods and go hunt all the time. So my goal is quite a bit different than a lot of the people you see on social media anymore. Like I'm trying to not have an Instagram page and ken just go hunting. Yeah, but yeah, that's a hard work. That's why your captions are pretty short. I would assume existed at all. It's kind of depressing. Actually, Uh Aaron Snyder puts I mean a bad at the bone picture up and doesn't put any words and gets like seven thousand locks on it or whatever. That's good. That's cool, man. So, um, when when do you think that you had I don't know, you might not even been able to recount this because you just have done stuff like this for a long But like, what was your first like true back country experience. Oh actually with you know, within a few months, um, when I was on a trail crew team when I was super young. Um, and where you you hike all the wilderness trails where I'm where I'm from and in Detroit Lake, Oregon, it's uh kind of by the pct of the Pacific Crest Trail and all the those wilderness trails in that area. We would go in and uh clean off the logs and branches and whatever for the people hiking. And that was really my first big one where we did like a seven day trip, you know, ten miles a day, um, all over the wilderness. And that's where it probably started the most. Right there. It's like fourteen, wow, carrying a cross cuts on an act well back kid. Yeah, Ali, man, that's a so that's pretty tough work. So the government it would hire fourteen year olds to do that. Back then, well what it was is there's a Youth Conservation Corp where they hire high school kids to uh to clean like, you know, all the hunt houses and the state parks. Since the people at the Fourth Service knew me and knew I was kind of an outdoorsy kid. Uh yeah, I was making giving an idea. Three oh five was minimum wage. Um, you know, there was parameters we were supposed to probably follow for me at that age to not be running chainsaw and cross cut sauce. But um, I don't think anybody followed him. And it made me a you know, a better person, for it made me learn how to feel pain. Yeah, no kidding, do that's that's cool. I mean, it's it's uh, it means a lot to be able to kind of have that kind of hard work in your life at such a like important age. You know. I see dudes all the time who like, uh, didn't work in high school or whatever and go to college and then they get thrown out in the world and they have to go get a job, and it's it's like they don't really know how to just put their nose down and just do something, you know, And I think that it's it's pretty important. Like for me, I was like ten years old and my first job was I got paid a penny and nail for every nail it picked up around you know, job sites or whatever, and might have made like, well, my granddad rigged me up a magnet. My dad was kind of ticked about that he didn't have. It kind of made things a little bit easier than what it was supposed to be. But you know that's what grandparents did for They kind of make it easier on you. But no, that's good man, that's that's cool. And and you know that hard work stuff and just I guess getting after it early really kinda laid the groundwork for you to just uh kind of belong in the back country almost, you know. And uh, how many days a year do you think you spend kind of in the field. Oh, man, I got my partner in crime frank here frankly, Yeah, we're probably pushing two hundred a year. Um. Now, this isn't like I've heard guys say that and they're just driving around in the woods like that's nights right, like that pull on in the in the wilderness or whatever. Um, I mean, we're in the woods in one way, shape, form or fashion damn here every day. But um, you know where we're actually backpacking in almost NonStop from August um through oh November, we're backpack hunting, and definitely the majority of part of May, June, July, um, we're scouting or backpack fishing. And then you know, a lot of times. Uh, you know, throughout the winter. Um, we're out there. We may not be camping, but Frank might be predator hunting. You know, I went on in some mountain lion hunts. Um. So it's a lot you know in the in the middle, I would say, you know, on average, we're dealing with anywhere from twenty to to fifty animals on the ground, whether it be Frank putting them on the ground, me or someone else. You know, we're we're doing pretty well as of late with the stick bow in Alabama, which is not wilderness. I would I would say that, oh, we're we're probably shooting. I'd say we're coming probably thirty to fifty animals each. So you a lot of experience behind that, which is cool. Sure. So with that much time out there, man, the I mean your house, your home, everything you do is on your back man. And so the pack is like the got to be one of the chiefly important things that you guys are are using. Um, what do you what was it? What was the first thing you're looking for in a pack? You know, like if you were to give a little advice for somebody who's looking to buy buy a pack and get into the wilderness thing a little bit. I just make sure it's fIF to is one. You know, packing boots, those are the big ones. That's what I suggest, because you have both of those on all the time, and so you know, you get a pack that doesn't fit, you know, I try to oversimplify this. If you have a size twelve foot and you're wearing a size tin boot, you know you gonna be happy. So get a pack that fits and it's fitted for you. Um, and then get the same thing with boots in a pack. Get the size that's applicable for what you're doing or what will work. You know, some boots will work for of the stuff, some packs will work for of the stuff. But you don't want to wear you know, insulated boots on an antelope punt, and you don't want to wear a day pack on a ten day hunt. So you just want to make sure you have the right sized pack for what's applicable for what you're doing. Yeah. Well as far as so as far as like I mean, you see packs, or at least I've seen packs that have a ton of pockets and some that are pretty sleek, you know, I mean, what's your what's your perspective there on that. Oh and without getting myself in trouble and Frank and I kind of had the same view. A lot of pockets are for guys to me that our gadget guys that that aren't. I don't know very many people that backpack on a lot that use a lot of pockets. They do use some, of course they're gonna use some, But Frank and I might be towards the other end of the extreme where we're like a four pockets that the most type of guys like, I need one big bag and then I need a simple amount of pockets. On the outside the hold butt, white gloves, beanie hat, head, lamp, snacks, and a map. After that, I don't really need those pockets. Those pockets add weight, they had clutter. I just need to hold the primary stuff to keep me, you know, functioning and happy. Um. After that, the main bag to me is kind of like the pickup bed. I need some I need a glove box, I need some stuff on the inside of the car, but in the back, I just want a big, long bed to haul a lot of I don't need a lot of compartmentalization in there. I just need it to haul a lot, right, so when you're when you're okay, so going to into like packing the bag a little bit. Um, let's just kind of start kind of big, I guess, and you know, like we're talking about this. Um. The our idea came from this was because Casey drew a Helio tag. So we're looking at you know, the southern end of the Mountain range, the Rocky Mountain Range essentially, I guess. So, um, you know, a hunt in late September, there is gonna be like packing for that. It's gonna be a little different than packing for late September Idaho or British Columbia or something like that. I mean one of the main main differences. Obviously in the HeLa you probably don't have a very high chance of seeing a blizzard in late September, but you might somewhere else. Right. It's it's it's actually not I think people over over complicated and franking. I do get the hunt everywhere. So you know what's gonna change is maybe one of your layers, meaning your puffy might be a little bit thinner than somebody else's, um, and then your rain jacket you might be able to go with a little bit more spartan rain jacket. Um, shelter wise, probably not going to be that much difference. You know, you won't need gators where you might somewhere else. But two or three items is about it. Um, not that much, not that much difference, yea, So we'll ago you're talking about, you know, how it's really important to have a pack that fits, um, being we're not really from out east, but you know, technically it's probably what you would call us as Easterners. You know, we're north east Texas. But um, how does a guy understand what good pack fit looks like and then in turn like get fitted for a pack when they don't live anywhere near where good packs are sold? Well, I mean we still thousands of years, so by just generally ask, Well, let's give an example. Right now, I am five eleven on a good day. What's your parent uh thirty two? All right, So your torso length it is probably eighteen and a half inches so average. What's your waistline? All right? So you're skinny, so you've got a small belt. The curvature of um, no problem, Um, your curvature of your back? Do you have like the standard white man butt? Where if you don't wear a belt, your pants fall down. I'm I'm substandard at that. So yes, guarantee you've got whether with kfaru. UM, we have different binds to the state to match your back profile, which we're about the only one we actually, I think we are the only ones to do that. So you would have a flat back profile, so we would match that to you. The shoulder straps would be, um, probably the short shoulder well, they definitely would be our should shoulder straps. That matches the curvaturity or your smaller body frame. Um. And then you know you don't necessarily need a super tall frame. Uh. And that has to do with the load lifters on the angle of When you pull on these load lifters, it's not really lifting anything other than the shoulder straps off your shoulders to trans for the weight to your hip bones. So you get away with a twenty four inch frame. Um, you could use the twenty six as well. And that's where I say pack fit is the belt fit right or the shoulder strap sudjusted correctly? Is the load lift or angle? Correct? Is the placement of where the load lift or attaches to the shoulder strap correct? All of that just it's comfort you know, keeps you in the field longer, and the more you can customize that, which obviously that's what we specialize, and you know, pride ourselves in has been able to customize each person as close as we can without being totally custom I mean it's pretty close, but you know some of it is. Uh you know, obviously the bag is not custom you're choosing the bag, but the fit was is what we specialize do. Yeah, now that's cool. So it's kind of I mean to condense what you just said, Uh, call y'all and you can pretty much with your experience, just tell us what we need and you're gonna get pretty close on the first shot. Is that kind of what you're saying. Yeah, usually i'd say, you know, maybe one out of a hundred might need some talking, you know, after you get it. You know. So we were pretty pretty dang good, um, you know, getting it out, getting getting it done correct out of the gate. Yeah, I got you so. Um, you know you're talking about belt fit and stuff like that. Man, I'm one of those guys like I just don't have hips at all, and I've heard you know that that's you know, when you really start putting a load on You're trying to get weight on your hips. Well, I don't understand how you do that to me. It just seems like it's so much more comfortable to try to put weight on my shoulders because that's where it rests. Is there is there way to circumvent that? Or is that about pack fit? And I've never had one that fits correctly? Yeah, you just never had one that fits correctly. I got you. Yeah, Well all right, then here you so well, I mean, you know you you think about it. I mean, it's no different than uh, if if I went and grabbed a rifle from from Walmart or something, and I don't know anything about like basically the bolt or as far as when when you engage the boat to talk around in when you get a custom rifle, they're gonna check and see. I guess it's Franks that called the stroke. I can't hear the name of it. But basically, there's gonna be a distance for the length of your body for um, the butt stock to be There's gonna be a distance you want that that rifle scope to be away from your eye. Well, if I just grabbed one, I'm like, man, I scoped myself all the time where I'm kind of bunched up when I'm um, you know, putting around in That's because I bought a generic gone off so you know, right off the shelf and the scope on it, rather than going to a custom gun where it's actually built for my body. Yeah. Yeah, so that's going to like how you how you put your pack together? Essince, Like how what are you? How do you pack? You know a lot of guys, I'm sure putting sleeping bag at the bottom, but what does that system look like for you? Well, everybody on that system should be the same, but my my sleeping bag and pad and uh, you know, a few twists and turns aside, there maybe some other lighter weight stuff down there. Go at the bottom. Um, above that, I've usually got my shelter and my food. The heaviest part is going to be at the middle of my back, um, you know, kind of around that I'm just feeling space, whether it be with a puffy jacket or oh my my camera kid or you know, kill kid. Whatever, that's gonna go kind of around that, and then on the top, I'm gonna have like my stove, um, you know, my my cook my my cook stove could go up there, my possibles pouch or survival kit, my med kid. Um, those things can go kind of around or on top of that, and it's space. What you're trying to get is the bulk of the weight in the middle of your back. That is what's vital. And then obviously coming sense what you need quickly needs to be there on the top of the pack or in the outer pockets. Yeah, yeah, I got you. So, so you're a stove guy, all right, you carry a stove pretty much everywhere. Uh sometimes at the pants man. It depends on the water. Um. You know, if if there's no water, there's no reason to bring a stove. So, you know, it really depends on the situation. But when I have the option, yeah I bring a stove. Yeah yeah, I got you. What. So are you just mountain house most of the time or what does your food system look like? I never eat mountain house anymore. Um. I eat a lot from like off grid. Uh, they make good stuff. I'll make my own a lot. Um. You know, you can buy brown rice, top ramen and put alive oil tuna packets in there, and it's like the poor man's delight. You can dehydrate burger. You know. You can make shepherds pie yourself with idaho and potatoes and dehydrate everything else and just a mixture. Really. You know, I eat a lot of peanut butter. Um. So I may have like a peanut butter bacon honey bagel sandwich, um. You know, it's one of my snacks during the day. Um. But as far as the dinners, you know, I try not to ever eat Mountain House just because there is a high stodium cont and it's not very healthy. It's ended up be like wiping a marker right when you go to the bathroom. It just never comes clean. That's another problem. So I try to Uh, I try to keep my digestive system the same out there that it is back home. Yeah, that's tough. I'm a peanut butter guy too. So have you ever hot can in those Black Canyon trails Black Canyon No Gunnison. Well, we did that. I guess that's like my one and only Bad Country experience. We did that a couple of years back and went to the Black hand of the Gunnison and UH had like an epic trout fishing trip down there, and I carried a hole, like the big tub of peanut butter down with me and never even opened it. So like that's the kind of amateurs you're dealing with right here, and like just just don't make smart choices, right, But yeah, peanut butter is live, man, It's just the way it goes. But anyways, uh so when you're talking, you know, you're talking about your pack earlier, about you know, all the different stuff that fits and sizes and all that stuff. Um, I've noticed that with y'all's packs you kind of have like a two part system where there's the frame and then you buy the bag separately. Um is that for a better fit or is that so that you can kind of interchange different bags that go on the frame and kind of have different things that do different stuff, multiple different uh reasons. Actually one is load hauling frame packs gonna haul more weight. Uh. Two is gonna be interchanging the bags. I mean when you buy them at the same time. Obviously we put them together for you. But yeah, if you want to just run the frame as a load hauler, if you want to run a day pack a multi day back, there's lawl interchange. We have a lot of internal frame packs two. But for the most part, like the heavy load hauling obviously is the frame system. Um. You know, when you get something that doesn't have that uh frame system, it's just not gonna be as god of a load hauling pack, no matter who it's from. And then obviously there's a giant crase for the meat shelf deal. So you can also use a meat shelf on there um where you can put the meat between the frame and the bag. So you said, John Chras, so are you're not bodying all the way on that deal? I'm not boughtying it anyway. I think it's stupid the day pack. Um, with a day pack, it makes total sense. I mean, when you don't have enough room to put anything in the main bag, you got to use the shelf. But within reason, if you have um, you know you're packed. I mean people ask all the time, well how do you fit it in there? Well, it's I mean, I'm not reinventing the wheel, right, there's the middle third of the pack. The heaviest weight is gonna be the meat. Well, if I packed in with my tent um, you know inside the bag on the way in and or or food, well I just take that out and I put the meat in there, and then then the tent is now strapped to the outside of my bag. And if you're packing gear, um, depending upon what kind of shelter you have or food, a lot of guys will leave their food and hide it for coming back the next year. But um, you know it doesn't take sixty five pounds seventy pounds of deebone meat, um, plus your gear. Let's say you've got thirty five pounds of gear. You're hitting about the max. Anyone can carry out comfortably anyway for any distance. And so it's really not that big of a deal to get that that weight in the middle of your back up against your back inside the bag and we just put it in a dry sack. I got you. So you're gonna have just compression. Well, I say when I say it's stupid, it's not always stupid. Sometimes it's needed. It's just if you we put an animal down, and let's say you and I don't know, three of your buddies. I'll have meat shelves and Frank and I put it in the main bag. We'll be twenty five minutes a head of you down the trail at a minimum, um, because we'll just drop it in the main bag and go where you've gotta with arts and any other system, you've got to open it up like a book, detach it, compress it, and make sure everything is in line. It just takes a little bit longer. And again, we have meat shelves. They work. Well, that's just it's just not something that we when I say we, Frank or I really have ever, um, it never made sense for us to use with the larger pack. We've used it with day packs though, but with the larger bag. Got you so pretty much all the time, you're just gonna take your meat, whether it's in game bags or trash bags or whatever, and just put in your big compartment, strap it up and go yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. All right, Well, so are you gonna have like are the compression traps that are running from your frame that just go all the way around the pack and that's how that meat gets held kind of in the central central part of that bag. Yeah, exactly. When we designed the bags, we obviously designed them to hold everything, you know, in the middle of the bag. So I got you, I got and you're just putting the meat in and you said A dry bag, I guess, and keeping the because I just I know a lot of guys, I guess their deals they worry about, like getting blood all over their jackets and stuff inside. Yeah, yeah, we just put it in a dry sack. I got you. What about as far as um, like, okay, so where we're going, I've hunted Colorado quite a bit, but you know it's still further south. Is gonna be you know, central western New Mexico. I mean, I'm meet care and taking care of that stuff to where it doesn't spoil. It is kind of gonna kind of be a big deal. Um, if we do pack it out on our backs. You know, how many hours can you put a um, you know, a quarter in a pack like that and it be okay without having to let it you know, stop, pull it out, let it air outlet it cool. If it's that's even an option, you know what like, is there something as far warm weather when you're packing something out and you need to consider that, Yeah, well there's a lot there's way more variables to it. But if if you've shot it and uh, you know, you can get it cooled off, um and you know, let us sit overnight, let it drip and you get it cool. Um. If you put in that dry stack, it actually stays cool because of the cold is just staying cold inside like a cooler. If you put it in hot, stays hot. So if if you're deboning it and going straight off the mountain, you just got a haul ask because you didn't let it cool to begin with. So it's the problem no matter what you're doing, you need to get it out and in a cooler as fast as you humanly possible. If you're by a creek, an ecothermal corridor, someplace where you can get it cool. The best thing isn't it for as far as the taste of the meat isn't to pack it straight out. It's to let it drip, let it, let the blood come out of it, let it cool off, and then pack it out after. So for us, a lot of times we're doing multiple species hunts. Um, once we get it cooled off and and the blood drained out, everything's cool. We put it in that waterproof sack and submerge it in a creek and then that's like a refrigerator and we'll hunt another five six seventies. Yeah, well, I've done or I've seen people do the creek thing where, not where they're submerged, but at least you know, hanging meat over or near a creek. And where we're going on there. You know, I've been doing the internet research whatever. You gotta take that for what it's worth. But everybody talks about it just being getting so hot during the day, you know, and I'm thinking, well, I mean, yeah, you're still in the mountains though, and the water is gonna be cold, right so, and there's a decent amount of rivers and streams in the unit we're headed to. I'm just thinking, you know, why could you not go and still use the same stuff that you do in western Colorado just further south where the water shouldnna be cold. I mean, even though if your day temperatures are up, you know, it's still gonna be cool down there on or in that creek, right, Yeah, it should be yeah. Um, I mean that that water is coming from a cold source, so it's definitely gonna be, you know, significantly cooler than than anything else. And there is times, you know, guys will ask me, I shoot it, and it's it's in this conditions and it's super hot, and it's no one situation it's like, we'll get your ass out as fast as you possibly can because that's the only option you got. And when that's the only option you got, be it and get it out. Move that's all you got, yeah, to be fit things. So that's always kind of humorous. Uh, we do our best to stay fit. But just man, being a flat lander, there's just so much you can do right to be ready for that that mountain stuff or whatever. And I run a good bit and I try to stay in shape. But I mean, I don't know. This is kind of I guess separate from the back and stuff we're talking about. But you know, you do a lot of Um, I wouldn't say, I don't know, you're not like a fitness guy, but you're fit and you'll do a lot of cardio training and stuff. It seems like, what's if you're talking to a guy like us who are kind of out east and just don't have that elevation or you know, terrain change to work with, Like, what what can we be doing to prep the best for you know, a mountain hunt? Yeah, I just say just backpack cardio is a big one. You know, claim as many hill as you can with a backpack on and um, whether it be stadium bleachers, you know, hills outside just going up and down, work on the lateral movement as well. All to work on your ankles, so don't just go up and down. Also do side hills and then just get used to having a pack on your back because if it's a backpack hunt, it's going to be on there a bunch anyway, to get your hips ready for that and everything. Hell yeah, I got you so so kind of speaking of that, we're talking about being in shape, being heavy, possibly on your back. So like your boots affect um a big part of your hunt probably through all this and like I which I'm sure you feel that you feel the weight of a heavy pack through your feet eventually. So what what is what is your boots set up? Is it boots? Is it? Is it trail runners? How do you usually like to do these things? Now? I wear closer to a mountaineering boot um than anything really, Like I oh, I'm worth. I wear a stiff boot um even you know, even elk hunting, I wear a stiff boot um. Just my foot cater you know works better with that. So well, you know, with the stiff if boot um you know, they are a little bit hotter sometimes. You know, you can probably get away with not as stiff of a boot boot down there, but fit is key. You know, you want to make sure you have a boot that doesn't leak and fits perfectly and it's broken in. Um. Some guys are gonna like more flexible boots, some stiffer, and that's just totally dependent on, you know, on each person. Yeah, I've got a pair of scarpus that I really like. I mean, they're they're just just comfortable a footwell and everything. But the they're not all leather. The tongue is like some type of synthetic. And I noticed last year in Colorado, whenever it would rain, water would like catch in there in the laces area and sooner or later would soak through. Is that you think that's like a specifically something wrong with that boot or something just that way. No, probably just that boot. And the thing is, if it's synthetic there, if you're walking around let's say in in East Texas or whatever, you're probably poked poles in the membrane and then eventually it just comes through a synthetic You can treat that and it will actually put a pretty good barrier on it. Um, you know ahead of time, it depends on two on which scarpa. You know, the anytime you get that synthetic tongue, you're looking at more problems than if it was you know, leather, So you want to make sure and treat it with a waterproof type of a treatment. Um. But if it's just a super flexible boot, eventually gortex, inevitably within a year is gonna lead one way or another. Yeah, I got you. Do you run gators? Uh? You guys probably won't need to, but I wear them when I need to yet, So okay, what's uh? I was kind of figuring that just more for just because I don't want to. It just seems like it would be hot down there. But like when do you look at a terrain and say I need gators there when it's rainy rainy? Alright? Got you? It's probably not gonna be an issue where we're at. Yeah, yeah, you shouldn't be wearing I mean, some guys wear these little scree gators, which makes if you're you know, wearing a lower cut boot where you can get debris in there. But if it's wet, wear gators and you probably don't want to wear them after that. Yeah, yeah, so uh. You know a lot of guys, um myself include I have like I have such a narrow foot man, and um and kind of similar to the backpack situation for us, like I don't really know how to fit a boot for walking up a steep incline, you know, because we don't have we don't live in hill country and so um, you know, I think you're probably over complicating this. Um, you walk upstairs, it'll have the same principle behind it. As far as with the boots, if you've got a narrow foot, I'd say you probably want to put on a Lost Portiva. That's one of the narrower boots on the market. And then when I say Lost Portiva in general, lost Portivas are narrow out of the I don't know how many offerings they have. So you want to you're not that far away from mountaineering stores. Try to get to a store that can tryumph where you can tryump and they're generally gonna have like a little four ft tall like ramp with rocks on it. You know, if you get on there and if you're like just popping your heels like like heel drops or calf drops that you would do at the gym. If you're feeling a lot of friction and pressure on that heel, don't buy that boot. Um, you don't have to go climb a mountain to to figure it out. It's just I'm more comfortable with it because I know the feel of crafty fitting from climbing a mountain. I know well enough when I go try one on. So if you can go try one on and you feel he'll pressure, like, oh yeah, that doesn't seem right, don't buy that boot. And it's almost like a recurve. You put that boot on, you're gonna probably know that is the boot for you, and all you gotta do is calf drops to feel it. Yeah, So it just seems it seems to me almost counterintuitive, but like you kind of I feel like you want Like I mean, obviously you want it. There's gonna be points of contact on your heel, right, and so like what is what is good? A point of point of contact that's good and you know it's not gonna slip and rub and everything, as opposed to like, oh that's a pressure that is just too much and it's gonna give me a hot spot, Uh, the one that has an abnormal amount of pressure more than the others. Um again, Um, you put on a glove, you know, on your hand that and you're just wearing the glove. It's gonna feel comfortable no matter what. Now, pretend that there's off, there's leathering on the palm. So you put an axe in your hand and you and you squeeze the act like you're gonna start to swing it, and you can feel pressure where they're sewn in um themes and you can feel that like let's say between your thumb and your index finger, Well, you're probably gonna get a blister there once you start swinging. So that's kind of the same principles. If you put it on, there gonna be pressure. But when you're like, oh, that's like a lot of pressure. I can feel that there, and it's like enough pressure. When I say enough, you won't be able to guess what's gonna work its way out breaking in. If it's a lot of pressure, just figure it's probably not going to fit. And as far as the heel goes, if if you're you know, doing the calf drop and you just feel this abnormal amount of pressure on the top of your heel cup when you're going, you know, calf dropping, that means your heels slipping in there a bunch that's probably not gonna fit either, Okay, I got you. Yeah, I'm just really bad at stuff like that. I just don't pay attention to like uncomfortable parts of the things that are happening to my body. Like I get nicks and stuff like that, and I just don't even notice it sometimes. And I'm really bad at like understanding when I'm gonna get sick and all these different things. So that's not something I'm good at. But I do know, like I get a few blisters the sides of like silver dollars, you, I'm just gonna stop. Then it's not gonna get that Farmer's gonna sit there for a while. Just man. I've had them, you know, And that's that's kind of why I asked, you know, I was um. I did a video to Stone Sheep Hunt two years in a row and sixteen and seventeen, and you know, I just I didn't ever get bad, you know, it didn't, but I definitely had hotspots and stuff, and so I just worried, you know, like, well, if I'm walking more than that, is it going to be an issue? So I definitely have have worried about that. And I know like guys that they'll just you know, rub them until they're just bad, you know. And so what is your first aid kit look like? Do you have anything for that kind of issue or is it more towards major things? Pre tape your heels with Luco tape. It's l e u ko. It'll stay on there for five or seven days. Uh. My made kid is probably the world's worst. I have super glue, Luco tape, some drugs. Uh. Yeah, that's probably all I got. I don't really bring anything too much. Is that because of weight or is it just like you don't want to fool of stuff that you aren't a hundred percent on how to work it? No? No, No, I'm very capable of I mean, I can give you you would give you a tricky ontomy if I wanted to, Please don't scenario. What would you bring uh for me? I mean it's probably gonna be pretty minimalist like that, just because I'm not a a first aid kind of guy. I mean I can, I can do a stint understand that there's a reason to probably tape something up one time if you're bleeding real bad. Um. And then besides that, I mean it's gonna be pretty minimal duct tape and band aids and you have some ibi profit in case something, you know, something does happen to where you're gonna need to at least reduce from swelling. And then like I'm not gonna bring a clock kid or anything like that. I don't know what to do with that stuff. Well for what, what would you say? The number one issue you're gonna have down there potentially uh rolled ankles for me? Um, yeah, well that's that was That's usually two or three on my list. Number one is you're gonna you could have altitude sickness, which means you need drink water and electrolt mix and drop down. If I've never had that problem before, what would that ever pop up again? I mean I've you know, I've done plenty of It can pop up at any time, so that that that's an easy fix. Um. You know. Number two, Uh, you could have heat exhaustion or heat stroke. All right, well, cool you off and make you stop doing, give you fluids. Problem solved, nothing needed. Just then you cut yourself. Well, I mean it takes stitches for the most part, or more for a beautification than anything to make it heal better. So super glue and duct tape and keep it clean or luco tape. Problem solved. Okay, you cut a finger off. There ain't a whole lot that I'm gonna bring that is going to help. Now, if you put a finger back on in the back country, yeah, you hit, if you hit an artery, Um, I mean I'm gonna put a turniquin on you and and pray to God you don't die. There's not a lot I can help you with, you know, if if you need oh, let's say, if you break an ankle, There's not anything I'm gonna put in that kit that I can't just manufacture out of crap I've already got that's gonna help you, other than give you moral support as you limp your ass out. Right. Maybe drugs, right, so I always have pain killers, but um, I'm trying to think we run into anything where we needed more than Yeah, I have a lot knife cuts, you know, fluid and tape it up. Um. Yeah, man, I just maybe maybe maybe this year I'll have a bad year and I'll carry more. It's just super glue, blueco tape, and some drugs seem to fix all problems. Yeah, yeah, well that's not I mean, I don't know, there's not a lot of things you can't fix some super clue. I got a buddy who runs the cycle shop and he uses that stuff quite a bit. Hey probably would tell you that. But so what about uh, you know you're talking about the heat, exhaustion and the outstude sickness and water being kind of key in that. Uh, what does your water system look like A UK and a bladder or or analogene or how does that work for you? I have analogene on my belt and then uh, I have a a bladder, not with a hose in it, just a big bladder in my pack. And so I know, if if water is pretty sparse, I'll have filled up the bladder and then just transferred into my anal gene. Is I need to um, you know, in the backcountry. And then electrolyte mix. You know, it's not just water. Water by itself is good, but if you're sweating out, you know, obviously salt and anyway your electrolytes you need to replenish those. So while you're drinking water. You need to have some kind of electro light mixed mixed in there. Yeah, is that? Are you filtering all that into your bladder at the time? Are you filtering from bladder to an algene or what are you doing there? We use a stairrap pin, so, um, if I'm filling up the nal gene is I'm I can on throughout the day. We use the sterrapin to clean that, and then in the bladder, I fill that up and I just uh, I use aqua mirror drops um ms are like awkward tabs, and I throw those in there, shake it around and and uh, then when I'm pouring it into my my analogene, the water I had in the bladder is already purified as I'm filling up the nal gene and creeks. I just use a sterrapin and Frank Frank pretty much does the same thing. Yeah, I've got a sterrapin and have used it quite a bit. But uh, do you mess with carrying that little filter thing that they give you with it or do you just roll straight fill the bottle? I just filled the bottle. Yeah, I got you. Well, I I just I don't know how many little squirming as I want in there with it. It's I kind of always where it's like, I don't know, there's plenty of good, clean, clear creeks, but I can just imagine, especially if you go hunt in the arid environment. You know, what do you do, Like if you like are having to fill up out of a wallow and stuff like that, you just deal with it. Yeah, and they they only it's not like the pump makes it not taste like yelk pists. It still takes horrible There is uh one I used last year that had like a carbon deal in there um that that did help it taste better, but that filter plugged up pretty damn quick anyway. So we I mean, if we do a wallow, we'll use drops and we'll use the strapin, but it still tastes like But I mean, it's the chance of having to go through a wallow or slim um. But when you do, I mean, it's just part of life and kind of just deal with it. Yeah, that's kind of more just like something you have to do and you try to not put yourself in that situation. I guess. I mean how much is different textas right? Yeah? Have you watched true grit a few times. Yeah, all right, Well remember when he says, I've laughed water from a hoofprint and been happy to have it about you guys. No, No, I haven't. Haven't had to do that yet. Try to try to keep a little bit of water around, you know. But I mean, I don't know. That's kind of part of this thing is uh, being mentally prepared to deal with bad country scenarios. That's just something I haven't had to do. And I'm trying to make sure that. You know, all the training in the world is all good, and shooting your brow is great, but if you just can't hack it, then, uh, it doesn't do you much good to go back there if you got to turn around. So I'm just trying to make sure that I'm prepared to do all that kind of stuff. You know. Oh yeah, No, I get it totally. I mean, and it's it's different. I just did a podcast with Barklow. He's a guy it's Sitka, and he and I were talking about um kinda you know, you get into a guy like he or I or or Frank or or so man these other guys that are desensitized. Um, you know, Frank will be you know, squishing mosquitoes and eating them while you're crying of what seems like super simple and fun to us as like crisis level for you because we've done it for so long. Yeah, Um, I don't, I can't. I'm trying to think Frank almost died of when was that three years ago? For two years ago Frank got pulmonary edema? Um, and uh and he you know, and he he came out. And then you know, last year I had cut my hand uh badly gluted back together and had some other fungus growing on them. Um, Frank, you didn't have any problems. No, Frank was the hunter. He Frank was an ah last year, no issues. He was babying me. So, you know, but part of us just staying back there. And I mean that's easy to say, but some of it's just mentally kind of having the wherewithal or the fortitude I guess not wherewithal, with the fortitude to just hack it out, um, because you're gonna be uncomfortable, and there's only so much crap you can bring, because you know, bring too much crap, you won't even get there. So you know, a lot of it's just mentally kind of sucking it up learning along the way so when your next trip isn't quite so bad. Yeah, yeah, sure, And I don't know for me, Like the issue on this that you're talking about is like it's it's kind of hard to say, I'm not really directing this to you, Tyler, but like just the other person, right, because you can do so much that you can do for yourself, but like making sure that the other person has done all these things to prepare for mental fortitude or whatever it might be, and that they they're ready to go to is like just the part that you can't really guarantee, you know, so like you can not with him well when you're when you're learning how to do the bad country thing. I guess you're just gonna have to go through some some folks until you find the right one. So Tyler snuff, Yeah, I mean all off series. I mean joking aside, like it is difficult to find um, you know. I mean I bring Frank up obviously because one he's sitting beside me, but two we have the same moral compass, we have about the same physical ability we have. I'd say Frank's probably a little more uncanny than me when it comes to living solo, I don't know that Frank would ever come back unless he had to. Well, he's got a hot girlfriend now if he might come back. But Frank pretty much he I mean, Frank can pretty much safe forever right at solo, and I can when I have to, But um, I don't he pray enjoys it a bit more than me. Where after maybe twelve fourteen days, I'm kind of pushing, like, as I should probably come off the mountain and I could stay longer. But there's a difference between being mentally able to stay and wanting to stay where you guys sol might only make it three days and you're just freaked right and not saying you guys, you know you're guys doing it, um, and then you might make the might get back there, and generally what's gonna happen is you're gonna you're gonna either come back early or barely make it to the end. More of a mental grinder to say you did it, and you're gonna be like, my god, that was horrible. The moment you're driving home and you stop at McDonald's, you're like, I wish I can't wait to go again. For four hours earlier you couldn't do anything but to get off the mountain. And then eventually those kind of crossed to where you don't run that issue anymore. You don't, you don't have it to where you know, it takes a lot for me to to come other than boredom. You know, front a backpacking trip and it's scouting and on board, I'm like, hey, let's go back and watch the movie. But when we're hunting, it takes a lot for me to to come back. Yeah, yeah, I I kind of agree, and you know, I haven't done the back country thing, but if you hunt a lot, you're gonna find some some scenario where you have to grind it out and you have to just deal with things. And for me, you know, we hunt a lot of white tails, right and you know, on day six where you've got up at four and went to bed at eleven for five days straight and it's still thirty degrees outside and the wind is blown like it stinks, you know, And I hope that that kind of thing translates over and I feel like it will as long as uh, you know, or we kind of tell ourselves that, hey, you know, we've done hard things before and it's not going to be the end of the world here. And I don't know, earlier you were talking to about, um, how like you're gonna end up bringing way too much crap that you don't need and this and that, and I feel like that's a place where I'm at on sleep systems, trying to figure out really what is the right way. You know, there's these ultra minimalist guys who are just running a tarp and just laying on the ground. And then you've got guys who we've talked to who are just you know, just big old burly guys who bring in a full sized hint and they just deal with it the whole time. And you know, y'all y'all do make some sleep system stuff. But um, you know, for like a more arid or warmer season hunt, Uh, what do you think is really necessary for a guy to have in the back country? Very little? Um, in the case of where you're at, just because I'm familiar with that area. UM, I mean, I'd probably be rolling in with just the tarp and a piece of tie because it's hard in hell anyway. UM, bugs shouldn't be a problem, so UM, you know, I'd probably just run a tarp and a piece of tie back, and you know, if you're worried about that, just get a real lightweight three season ten. Yeah, yeah, well that's that's good to note. So I kind of thought the tarp thing, and I don't know, I mean, what's the point in having the thing over your head unless it dews or rains at night? Right, I mean, does it do down there during during the night too much? That one't it's not gonna help that anyway. Um the uh, well, when it's also a sun block, so of course the day every tight under it in shade, right, um helps for that. But yeah, just squaws coming through is a big thing, you know, and you will get that. Um, just keep your craft dry and then sun shade if you're back at camp and laying under it, you know. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's just the whole fear of the unknown kind of thing or whatever, you know, Like I'm not I'm not tied to its hemp any means, but I just kind of wondered about you know, I'm glad you said bugs aren't that big of a deal, just because you know, you're in the desert southwest. You're just thinking about scorpions and all kinds of little creepy crawlers or not you know, and uh, but I don't. I guess if you're on a sleeping pad, then it's not that big of a deal. You can just you're up off the ground a little bit and be fine. Where you're at will be I mean, there's there's spots in New Mexico and Arizona that you know there's spiders like scorpions and and uh, well scorpions mostly, but snakes, and they can be an issue where you might want to pack, you know, a tent or a bug net at the very least, and do like a bugnet baby and a tarp. It just spend on how light you want to go. If you don't mind carrying a little extra weight and a three season ten, it's not a horrible option. Yeah, you think that if there's a place you're trying to cut some weight, is that the place that you look to first is sleep systems where you're going. Yeah, if it was a different area, which certainly would not be my shelter, but where you're at, then it's that's probably one of the easier ones. And it's more of just an assessment of what's going on. So you know, for example, if Frank and I are heading in I don't know ten miles with these crazy l vation gains and losses and we're just you know, sucking wind getting in there from that. Um, but there's a lot of water source. We may drop down to just awkway tabs. We may just carry analogene all day. Um, you know, if it's gonna be uh you know, weather dependent whatever, we can skip on some of our clothing. We might um either lighten up each layering piece of like of our layering system. Each one might be a lightweight, whether it be the fleece or the base way or the rain gear or whatever. We'll lighten that up. Um. Those are the things we kind of look at, uh, you know, depending and where you're going relatively easy. So it's not gonna be any crisis going on, or shouldn't be. I'm glad you said that because honestly, man, uh, I've kind of figured it's not gonna be terrible. Um. And then you just get on forms or whatever and people like, oh man, that country is rough. It's like man really like it's because it's gonna talk at it like like come on. So yeah, I mean one man's rusts another man's jokes. Keep that in mind when you're eating those. But the country back there can be rougher, But that doesn't mean that that's going to affect your gear. I mean, at the very least, you might just go a little bit lighter way when I'm talking, I mean, terrain is the last thing I'm worried about for the most part. You know, if it's steep here and there, you can get around that, you know, just go a little slower, you'll be fine. It's it's when you're dealing with you know, from the ground up snakes, scorpion spiders, all the way to the you know, up in the clouds, snow, rain, when lightning. Um, you know, you you can't control the terrain other than pack a little bit lighter, but you can't prep for all those other things. Yeah, yeah, I got you cool. Well, so we don't want to take up too much more of your time. Man, it's been great you You're just a wealth of knowledge as always. Uh, But I do feel like something we didn't really touched much on, and I think that you're really good at is is kind of like the the woodsmanship side of things. Do you have a couple of things maybe that like you would just tell somebody who's trying to maybe go out in the back country for the first couple of times, like things that they need to know that's not really gear stuff, but just like how to do stuff. What would be some things that you try to tell people. Learn to read a map, um, above and beyond the GPS, you know, learn terrain association, topography, learn uh, animal behavior, where the animals are gonna I can look at the map and figure out where the animals are before I get there. Learn that, um, you know, elk need to eat, sleep, drink, and have sex in September, figure out where they're doing those things. You're probably gonna kill one, um you know, reading the weathers another one. But really reading the map would be the first one. Um. You know. Obviously there's some common sense involved, um with everything, but having common sense in your layering system, your sleep system. UM. The other thing too, which you talked about, UM, how many days are you guys going in? Uh, Well, we're kind of kind of trying to decide how we're gonna do this hunt, and everything's on the table, right. But the original idea was to go in way back there for the whole nine days of the season and actually get there day early, you know that kind of thing. But I don't know. I'm kind of leaning more towards making like a four day loop kind of thing and come back the truck replenishing and going back out. And I'd be interested to know what you think about those or if there's another scenario you think might work better. Well, since you don't know you could make it, I wouldn't plan on the whole ten days. Think that'll really screw your plans up if you hike all the way in there and your second hind TITTI and three. So I would do the four four or five and four thing. You know, four nights, five days, make a loop back if you got to run into town to get a burger and replenished grade or whatever. Um. But then you're not packing as much weight, you're more effective on your feet, um, and you're not gonna be that far even if you were ten miles in, well, ten miles was pushing it. If you were five miles in, uh, you know, you can do five miles at you know, slow pace and two hours you know, probably closer to you an hour and a half. Um, you know, not that long. You're not wasting that much time if you're fit enough, so you can come out and come back in pretty quickly, not burn that much time to you know, to grab more food. So I would suggest two smaller trips rather than one big one. If you had done it a lot one, you wouldn't be asking me the question. But to I've been safered, well you know what I mean, you you know what you're comfortable with. I didn't done it a lot. That's the whole reason we're having on you know, like that, like we're trying to learn this stuff. For sure, I don't. I would say, I keep asking Frank Foot so you get more than my opinion. How many emails do we get of guys I was a high school or a college football player. I'm in great shape, dude, I'm ready to do whatever it takes. I mean I'm talking. They write a book on how prep they are and just just totally puss out the first three and come out and they're like and they have every excuse in the world, you know what I mean, I I sprained my toe or my paint, I don't know, make something up, when in reality they just didn't want to be back there, and there is nothing wrong with that. There's it's not meant for everybody, but you do not want to base your entire plan off of the unknown of can you make it back there? Some guys aren't. I can't spell right. I'm not gonna go into and spelling b I know that because they can't spell. So you don't know if you can backpack hunt long term, long distance um or are going to enjoy it? And part of us the enjoyment having enjoyment when you're back there. So gambling everything on going in ten miles is a big gamble where you know, to five days or two four night ers whatever, not as big as a gamble, and the chance that you're having more fun or are a definite compared to him. Maybe this is a little bit different, but kind of along the same train of thought on a hunt like this, would it be more I advantageous to go back set up a base camp, you know, five six, seven miles back whatever you you like, you can make it and do and just hunt on like a radius out from camp every day and come back to the same camp. Or would you put camp on your back every day and just go with the elk take you. Oh that's what you said, they elk take you? Yeah, hell no, don't do that. Yeah no, no, don't do that. I mean that's like the most ineffective, which you go to have everything on your back and go where the elk take you. If you're going where the elk takes you, that means they're going where you scared them to anyway, so more than most likely, Like if if we're hunting with our camp on our back, then something has gone terribly wrong in the game plan, right, Like now you're gonna have to move with your pack on, and you might as well be hunting while you do it. But generally you want to go in and hunt to three, four or five days in one area and and and hunt around it and then by then you've probably blown them out and then move again or or two days and then move again in two days. But you know, if you're careful and you're not getting winded, you know you can hunt pretty effectively from you know, say base camp. That that sounds like you're living in the lab for luxury. You're coming back to your one man shelter, right and probably you know your sleep system and a little bag hanging in the tree. There's not a lot coming back to, but you're, you know, you're, you're you're basically area of of operation you know is going to be by water, hopefully not by the elk to scare them off where you're you're coming back to that spot and hunting, you know, a mile or two around that spot. Yeah, yeah, got you cool. Well, Uh, what's interesting about this whole thing we're doing is that everyone has a different take on that. And for my first thought was to do what you're talking about. And then I've had some guys tell me to do that just you know, chase them all night until it gets dark and throw up a tent every night. And I don't know. Part of it sounds good, but it just part of it sounds inefficient because you're gonna waste time every morning and every evening when you could be hunting or at least sleeping where you're sitting up camp and trying to find a new place to put it, you know, put your sleeping pad or whatever when if you go. It's just it's not just that you are so ineffective hunting with forty five pounds on your back, especially if you're trying to climb. You guys will look at each other and just say, shoot me, I'm done with five pounds on your back. It's just it does. And I don't know that. I mean, I don't think you've ever done that, having backpack h it hunt with your wall of everything on your back everything. I think that got blown out of proportion with Cam back in the day and uh, not taking away from anything that Cam. If he was doing that, more power to him. But if you're having to do that, you are scaring the kind of animals so bad. You're forced to hunt with what's on your back. And and I make light of this, I make jokes about it, but truly, if you have a forty five pound load and you're trying to sneak in on an elk, you might, I mean, it just ain't happening. You know you're gonna have to drop it, go back and get it. And so yet, don't don't do that. It won't it won't pan out. Now, when you're moving from A to B, you know, obviously you want to be cognizant of your surroundings and hunt your way to be. But after you hit the drop all that crap and go to a day pack. Yeah, yeah, I got you. So um you mentioned white will ago and I know we're kind of wrapping up, but I really it's kind of the broad subject here, but like, I mean, what's what's feasible on say, you like you're gonna do the five day thing? Like, what are you looking at hauling in on your back? You know, on average, you know, some guys are going to be less or more, but on average forty pounds, you know, you probably get her down to thirty five pretty easily for for four or five days. Depends on how much you eat, what shelter you've got, But if you're over forty, you really need to start assessing what the hell you're putting in that pack. We're fine, you know, we're young kidding, but no, and honestly, okay, here's something that you talked about. Will to go a little bit like with the whole Like you know, I was a high school athlete, blah blah blah. Like Tyler and I both our mindset is like, man, I'll tough out a few extra pounds if it helps me to be comfortable. Is that an okay mindset to have? It depends on what it is I'm totally of that mindset, but it depends on what it is if if it's if it makes sense, meaning, oh, oh I don't want to have a tarp. I want to have a shelter. That makes sense. Um, I want to eat a little bit for food. That makes sense. Oh I want to change my pants three times? That does not make sense. Yeah, you know. Oh I want a little bit more comfortable pack. Um, you know, and and out of the options, you know, this is one we get. You know, Hey, your competitors packs four ounces lighter. That doesn't really make sense, you know if the other pack were comfortable. Um, yeah, so you get. But if you're or or your stove, you know, like, oh I want to be safe and bring two canisters, Well one guy can take one, one can be the other to make sure you can make coffee and food every night. But you know, bringing in a stove that weighs two pounds, that doesn't make sense. So if it makes sense, yeah, I mean carry you next, Like, if you worry about sleep, carry a thicker sleeping pad. If you sleep on that, better carry a bigger one could sleep Yeah yeah, no kidding man, cool Well, Aaron, thanks so much for all the knowledge. Dude, I can't tell you how much it's helped, and it's I really appreciate the frank way you put things no pun intended there with you when your compadre. But uh um, if people want to learn what not? Yelled at Frank, I went, Frank, h if you want to learn more about kafaru, Uh, where would we need to send them? Oh? And check it? Uh? Kafaru dot net is the website k I F A r U U Instagram's uh Kafaru underscore I n T l um. And then if you Frank is Frank peralta if you want to check at Frank out, I'm Aaron Snyder one A and we have kafar o Cast, which is our own podcast, which is k I F A r U c A s t um. Yeah you can spell? Well, I guess what I was saying. No, I said I wouldn't interer a spelling be Okay, that's good. Do we find Frank's profile and Tinder or where do we Where do we find Frank cat? He's off all that, he's a he's been saved. Oh all right, man, Frank is Frank is Newman's that's good. So anyways, cool dude, We'll link all that stuff in the show notes down below. Uh go check out cafar O for some legit packs, shelters, and I mean, what else y'all guys offer now that you've got some apparel stuff too or something, right, we've yeah, we've had the jackets forever, but you know, synthetic jackets, pants, sleeping bags, survival blankets, multitu the pockets, tps, uh, pot carps so um, well like pull outs. You know, we have different uh like ditty bags. Basically we have a bunch of those game bags, all kinds of stuff. I'll just laugh because Tyler is a pockety guy. He he does not like the idea of minimalist packs. He likes the you know, little things. Just shove things and lose them all the time. Gyar and T go with Frank and I on two to three trips. You will never have a multitude of pockets again because you're like, why am I carrying all this? This makes no sense. I'm just I'm just semi organized, man. I like to have I like the thought of having two or three pockets or pouches to have, you know, like my my fire starter or whatever it might be. And you know, oh that makes that makes total sense. We do that. We have these little fullouts and we'll have our uh you know, basically, I'll have a med kit and anyway, we do the same kind of thing as far as that, because we can get some guys that like want a pocket for their toothbrush or want a pocket for everything. I'm like, dude, a lot of pockets man, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes up for a lott of weights. I don't know for me, I just lose things if I shove things in too many whole sunny a lot of a lot less area for that. But anyways, dude, thanks so much. Oh no, that one know, as soon as I said it, I was like, this is not gonna go will Anyways, dude, thanks so much for the time today. Aaron really appreciate it, man, and I can't wait to see how y'all season goes this year. Y'all are always getting out there and uh not only pushing it hard but actually killing things and that makes for some really entertaining uh I don't know, just observance from Afar, I guess you'd say. So. Thanks man, Yeah, well, good luck to you guys. Keep us posted. Um trying not to carry too much crap or hypothermia, and hopefully you don't need a big med kick because I'm gonna feel horrible. Yeah yeah, compound fracture. Will Snyder said, we don't need anything, so I'll just walk out on this bone. It'll be fine anyway. Thanks to you, I think I see your man. That was some killer info. If you found this interview helpful, be sure and leave us a review below and comment what you thought was the most helpful tip from this episode. For sure, make sure you also follow us on our social media platforms, Facebook and Instagram, and also subscribe on YouTube so you can see how these hunts turn out. Remember this is your element, living net. They're waiting the whole life for that

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