00:00:30 Speaker 1: Everybody, welcome to flop four of our dispatches from Africa. I'm joined here to talk about poaching in Africa and anti poaching efforts in Africa with Joe ash Bomo, known as JJ around these parts, who works with Robin Hurt Safaris on community development projects and anti poaching efforts. And we're going to talk a little bit about how those two things actually have something to do with with each other. Before we get into that subject, I want to remind everyone right now we have the raffle is open. The window to buy raffle tickets is open for our annual TRCP fundraiser Turkey Hunt. For many years now, we run a raffle where and we pick a winner and that winter brings along a friend to go turkey hunting with me. And the honis you tell us when you win, you and your friend. We cover your airfare, We hook you up with any gear you might need for the trip. We cover the price of your turkey tag, We cover food, lodging, everything, We pay you. You don't pay anything. We pay everything for you, guys to come turkey hunt. You'll spend three nights with us. We'll have two full days of turkey hunting. We do it every year. We bounce around different spots we want to hunt. We always have a ton of luck. The raffle is open from now to the end of July. All the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by a donor a buddy mine covers all the expenses. All of the raffle ticket money goes directly to TRCP and trcp's uh you know, their slogan again is guaranteeing Americans quality places the hunting fish. All the money stays on mission when you buy a raffle ticket. The recent public lands fight that we lived through, TRCP was front and center and getting that squared away and leading us to a big victory in that battle. So get your raffle tickets. Now back to the subject, you joy as you you're Tanzania. 00:02:34 Speaker 2: Born, Yeah, somet okay, Yeah. 00:02:37 Speaker 1: How did you? How did you ever get into the career that you're in? Like? What what led you down that path? 00:02:45 Speaker 3: I stuted out in community development. I joined Robin hatw had left foundation as an int okay, yeah, like twelve years ago. So we were doing community jects in the communities that surround the areas that Robin had Safaris has for hunting. So that's how I got in and also I did I was doing also anti poaching patrols, mostly in this area. I've done quite a bit of patrols. 00:03:17 Speaker 1: You've been doing patrols here patrol Yeah. 00:03:19 Speaker 2: I've been doing it, yeah for a while. 00:03:20 Speaker 1: Yes, in the US, when we hear poaching in Africa, right, nine out of ten people their mind goes to elfant ivory and rhino horns. How is that accurate? I mean, in what ways? Is it a more complicated picture than that, like like, but that is what people think when they hear those words. 00:03:48 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:03:48 Speaker 3: Of course, the largely the poaching in Tanzania is is just for substinence, but then you have the big poachers will go for the elephants and the rhinos. Of course there's not any more rhinos left. Yeah, but that was in the seventies and eighties. There has been elephant poaching for but we haven't had any incident for the last ten years, we haven't had any incident. 00:04:21 Speaker 2: With elephant poaching. 00:04:23 Speaker 3: And also the government really came down hard on elephant poaching and rhino poaching. 00:04:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what is poaching today? You deal with? 00:04:33 Speaker 3: Well, poaching today? What to deal with. What to deal with is mostly for I can say it's there's a market for game meat, which is usually buffalo or any animal that they can get on a snare. So, and there's a belief, like in giraffe meat that it has some healing capabilities, so then there's a market also for that. So, but it's usually for the meat. That's what most of the poachers go for. It's it's like a black market, you know. So they hunt and they poach and they sell the meat to various places in a black market. 00:05:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, is it? Is it common you'd be able to go into a city or a town in Tanzania and if you looked around you would find game animals for sale and the open or is it? Is it more discreet? 00:05:27 Speaker 3: No, it is very very discrete. Yeah, they don't do it in the open. A few years ago the government opened up gay meat butcheries so that to give the local people a chance for so to get an animal. Legally, there are places where the locals can can go and hunt. They get a permit, they go with a government game scout and they can hunt an animal. And yeah, if you have the if you have the license, then you can you can sell it, but it's not that much. It's very rare, so most of the game meat is sold very discreetly, and to select a number of people who I think the Pachas have some sort of relationship with. 00:06:07 Speaker 1: We've in the time I've been hanging around here, I've heard a number of people mentioned snaring. In the US, and in most states you can set you can set snares for fur bearing animals. It's very regulated. Okay, okay, you guys are talking about a type of snaring that it's more meant to just well one to catch like large game, big game animals, to catch me animals. How are the snares employed? What are they made of? Like, what does it look like when you encounter a snare set up? 00:06:41 Speaker 3: It's, uh, they use wire, so it's they put it close to watahs and on the on river beds, so it's it's a waya that's it's round. 00:06:55 Speaker 2: And then the animal goes in. It starts to. 00:06:58 Speaker 1: Show me how big they make the. 00:07:00 Speaker 3: The loop can be quite big, you know, it can be like it's it's big. It's it's like this big. So even a buffalo head can go so you can, Yeah, they'll snare something that. 00:07:13 Speaker 2: Yeah they can, Yeah, they can do it. 00:07:15 Speaker 1: And then you also I hear guys talk about a muzzle order. Yes, now we can buy a muzzle order. Yeah, right at the store. Yes, these are not store about. 00:07:27 Speaker 2: No, no, they're not. 00:07:28 Speaker 3: Usually you find that a lot of the people with muzzle loaders, they they got the skilled down from their grandparents, so they can make one and they use like a piece of metal this big and put it in there like a bullet and they have gunpowder and they shoot it out. Others have some very old, very old muzzle loaders, which I believe that they got from You know, a lot of people from this area during the First World Wow, they were used as the as fighting during the First World the First World War in Africa, and they said so they were part of the German German local army and later on they became the kings of African rifles. So some of them came back home with the with them as all and so it got handed down. 00:08:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, you find them from time to time. 00:08:25 Speaker 1: So when you're you're out of patrol, and you guys do will do thirty day patrols, yes, and and and in necessary you're patrolling I keep telling this like to our audience. I keep trying to explain, like this this reserve that we're on, Yes, it borders a large national park on one of its borders. It's a it's a game reserve. That's the size of we have a very large famous park called Yellowstone National Park the US. It's that size. Yes, you do thirty day patrols. Yes, Let's say you you catch somebody, Okay, you encounter poetrycoun guy in camp. He's got a llegal, he's got snare equipment, he's got me is it are you at liberty to make an arrest? Like? How do you approach the situation? What do you do when you find someone? 00:09:12 Speaker 3: Okay, during our patrols, we have two to four government game scouts. They're the ones legally who are allowed to apprehend a person who is caught poaching or doing any anything illegal. So as soon as we get the guy or culprits, we have twenty four hours to present him, uh to to to the relevant authorities. 00:09:36 Speaker 1: You can detain twenty four hours. 00:09:37 Speaker 3: Yeah, so what we do during the twenty four hours we will do our best to make our way out of the area and go and he goes to the police station and he stays there until then the evidence comes in and then it becomes a court case from there. 00:09:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what kind of fine Like, let let's take let's take something in the extreme. Uh, there's Girafts here, we see him most days. Yeah, it's the national animal. Okay, So it'd be like our equivalent would be the bald eagle or national bird. If you kill a bald eagle, you're in a ton of trouble. You catch a guy with something like that, what sort of like, what is the punishment that if you've got a good case and you can prove it, what would be the punishment for something like that? 00:10:20 Speaker 3: A punishment for that is close to twenty is in jail. 00:10:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I keep hearing. You know guys at Robin Hurtsafaris, how about that. A lot of staff people they hire would be people that reformed poachers. Maybe people kids that start out poaching at a very young age, you know, fourteen fifteen years old, that kind of get brought on and cultivated and given like career positions within the organization. Yes, what are they getting caught doing that that you would not that they wouldn't have to go off to jail for a number years, but that they have an opportunity to come, you know, be out in the bush and work with wildlife, but work in a productive way. 00:11:07 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, Well you find them, you are somewhere caught setting up snaares. Others you find maybe they were holding the game meet, you know, because if for example, they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field, you know, to dry it out and everything, then put it in sacks, and so they need guys to move the sacks out. So you find kids like that, You might catch a kid so and and some of them don't even know if they're doing something that's illegal. So after we educate them and rehabilitate them, then we give them an opportunity, so they join our anti poaching units. That's where most of the guys that you have hunting with you started from. So they started they starting that poaching unit. And as they progress they go they become trackers because also they have they are very good with the area because they've. 00:12:04 Speaker 2: Been there since they were young. 00:12:05 Speaker 3: And also they are very good trackers in following up looking at the animal trucks. 00:12:10 Speaker 2: So it's a benefit. 00:12:11 Speaker 3: So you just show them that you know, if you do it this way, it's legal and it's going to benefit you and your family instead of doing this which you might end up in jail, so it's. 00:12:24 Speaker 2: A better option for them. 00:12:26 Speaker 1: Next, talk about what community development means and how does like what is the relationship between community development and anti pouching. 00:12:38 Speaker 3: The word that we use is community based conservation. So what we do is we help the communities in projects for them to see the actual benefits that come from protecting the wildlife. You know, the projects come from the communities around so if they can see a direct benefit comes from preserving and conserving the wildlife that they have, or even helping us in finding out about the purchase. Like two months ago, we got information about people with two muzle loaders and they were caught before they could do anything, and it was because of the community informing our antipproaching units about such people. So it's projects, it's schools. We've built schools in this area. We've built health dispensaries, we are currently working on renovating one in the village that we went to in Lumbey, and we've set up waterwils. We've supported children who have finished primary school going into secondary school. So these benefits which the community can see and touch, the tangible benefits that come from them partnering with us in protect the wildlife and the area, so that whatever that's got from hunters who come that there's a percentage that goes back to the community, so it's a direct benefit to them. So in that way, they help us in being also custodians and fellow protectors of the wildlife. 00:14:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you find in the surrounding communities that you're working that areas benefactive, Like, do people wind up having a positive attitude towards the wild landscapes there here? Oh? 00:14:29 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, people are very positive. But as in everything, there's always a few characters who always find a way because you find it's something that they've been doing for generations and generations. To them, it's just a way of life, approaching illegal fishing and you know, illegal timber harvesting. So there's still a few, you know, characters who haven't it hasn't really gotten into their heads. But for the most part, the communities are very receptive and very supportive of what we do over here. 00:15:04 Speaker 1: I want to back up a minute. There's the thing I failed to ask you about you just brought up. 00:15:09 Speaker 4: There's a big fishing component here, yes, because you're on a very large lake, there's a river system, and there is legal fishing. Yes there is, okay, but you're still patrol and you guys patrol and regulate the fishing. And where I live, it would be that we have game wardens hired by the different states, and the game wardens patrol the waterways and it's checking licenses, checking what equipment you use, checking that you have fish you're allowed to have. 00:15:38 Speaker 1: You don't have too many, right, Yes, they're just doing that work all the time, and they interact with fishermen. Yes, and that's sounds very. 00:15:45 Speaker 3: Similar basically the same thing. We Also what we do is we facilitate the government game offices so that we go with them and also you find that we have we have more of a feel of the area. You know, the game scouts come and go, they get changed, so we have our teams with them even on the water and they check you have to have a valid license, and we have to check the type of fish you caught. There's also the size of the net that you have so that you don't catch the small fish. So we it's almost the same thing as you described. We we we have to do that on the lake and also on the river. And also even by doing that, it's also because poaching if it can't come in, and if they can't come in on land, then they'll they'll come in through the water. So by having patrols, then we have a way of controlling the guys who would come and poach and then put it on a boat and go and go out. 00:16:46 Speaker 2: So it helps. 00:16:47 Speaker 1: Yes, Is there anything I missed that you feel like you should tell me about? 00:16:51 Speaker 2: Well, not really, Moan. 00:17:01 Speaker 1: Let's talk like Morgan Potter's not here. Okay, Morgan Potter tells us all about we got a little worked up about black mamas just from hearing the bottom, reading the bottom, He's like, you'll never see one, okay, right away, there's a damn black mama right in uddle of the road. How many black Like, how many black mambas per day are you running into. 00:17:25 Speaker 2: In a normal day? Went running into one? Okay? 00:17:28 Speaker 1: How many per week? 00:17:29 Speaker 2: Per week? Okay? 00:17:30 Speaker 3: Like for the week, I've had running into two and uh and one of them really chased us. 00:17:39 Speaker 2: You know, it's a. 00:17:42 Speaker 1: It's a so I didn't know, but I had heard of black mamas. I knew they were bad or like I knew there was like a snake to be wrackinged with. Yes, they run their neck up like lockness monster. Oh yeah, they stunned with the crews around with their head like up here. Yeah, they could stand on their tail like literally they're like an attack. Oh yeah, it is. It's quite aggressive, very territorial. 00:18:08 Speaker 3: Chases people around, chases people can't even chase the car. 00:18:11 Speaker 2: It can't even Yeah, it can go up to you. 00:18:14 Speaker 1: You'll never see one. Yeah, here's the funniest part about the funniest part about we see a black mom. But yeah, he, like the black mom like honestly considers attacking our car. Yeah, he like runs through his mind. He false charges the car and then goes off. And then we like drive off and we don't go a mile and someone looks out the side of the road there's another one and Morgan's like, no, that's a that's a cobra. 00:18:37 Speaker 2: Cobra. 00:18:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think if you, if you, if you had to choose, you're better off meeting a cobra than than than a black mom. 00:18:46 Speaker 2: But it's it's it's really it's we call it over here. 00:18:50 Speaker 3: Sudden death, you know, yeah, sudden death. But you have traditional helas. We'll say they can fix you up, fix you up, but you're never sure up about it. 00:19:00 Speaker 1: Inter snake we saw it was seem very benign. I mean, I know they're not, but he seemed very like just a chill snake because we saw a puff adder. 00:19:07 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's very chill. You know. 00:19:08 Speaker 3: He can you can want trouble. Yeah, you can even step on him and he won't do anything to you. But a black mamba, you startled it or you're just like in its surroundings and like it's coming back. 00:19:21 Speaker 2: To its whole. Like bug here, it would really chase us away. Here. 00:19:26 Speaker 1: This one was going down the road and we pulled up on it, and he turns and comes back towards Yes, the truck. 00:19:35 Speaker 3: It's not scared of anything. Yeah, that's the truth. 00:19:38 Speaker 1: About respect for him. Yeah, but then you've been in this business twelve years. Yeah, you do mega patrols out here, you do long patrols out here. You've never been struck by one. 00:19:50 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be here if I was so. 00:19:52 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's proof I've never been struck by one. 00:19:57 Speaker 2: We've we've had close clothes earlier. This. 00:20:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, uh, some of our guys were chasing a poacher and as soon as they got close to him, he he did. He turned around and was going towards the vehicle on it on his own. It's because he had seen a black number. So when the guys got there, it stood up, and so they also started running back. And it's very rare for it to happen. But as soon as they get to the to the pickup, they found that there was another one close by, so it also stood up. So it was a bit of a crazy day. Luckily no one was bitten. 00:20:34 Speaker 1: We have a we have a similar animal in the northern We have a mountain range called the Rocky Mountains, and in the northern end of the Rocky Mountains we have a bear called a grizzy berry. 00:20:44 Speaker 2: Yes. Uh. 00:20:47 Speaker 1: People that live around there are generally very relaxed, so like, sure, you see him, it doesn't mean it's going to kill you. Yeah, you just get used to it. And then people come from far away and they go there and all they talk about is grizzly bears, and then people that live there get annoyed with them for talking about grizzly bears. All the time. Were those guys, were those guys about black mams? 00:21:10 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but but even the you know, the people around here who live around here, that's really one one snake that they're really scared of. 00:21:21 Speaker 2: That's the truth. Yeah. 00:21:22 Speaker 3: So you can find a few brave people who are ready to confront it, but most would rather just go the other way. Yeah, it's it's really scary. Yeah, that's the truth. We U There's a guy, a honey guy that was beaten two weeks ago because sometimes they go and stay inside a beehive. So while he was opening it up, it struck him and. 00:21:46 Speaker 1: He how ells, he get into the beehive, it. 00:21:49 Speaker 3: Goes up, climbs up the tree because the behave is on top of and goes inside there. It seems the bees no, don't mind him, but don't mind it. So he opened it up up and it struck him and three hours later he was he was dead. Yeah, and and for me three hours, I'm like, oh, okay, it took a while because it's usually thirty to forty forty five minutes, I know, but yeah, I was also surprised that three hours Okay, yeah, but yeah, so it's it's a very dangerous snake. They are not so many. They are very rare, and they only come out early in the morning during the day and later in the evening they go back. 00:22:29 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, right, well, thanks for the thanks for the conversation. 00:22:34 Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, thank you for. 00:22:36 Speaker 1: Your efforts on behalf Wildlife. Yeah, thanks for your efforts at making us see more chill about black moms. I'm actually pretty chill about black Yeah. I know, I like, I don't, I have no problem. Yeah, it's skinning. Yeahs Kanny Seth run around. 00:22:54 Speaker 3: It's real, baby, I'm sure it's it's a real adrenaline adrenaline russion. 00:22:59 Speaker 1: It's good for that, good for that. It's like bungee jumping.