00:00:14 Speaker 1: All right with us. Today we have Greg Barrel of First Light. He's a white Tail product manager, and we're going to dig into some new white Tail gear coming out soon. Thanks for coming on, Greg, Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, what's new? What's coming up coming up soon for the white Tail line? Well, um, a few exciting additions. For two, I would say, most notably, you know, something we've been working on for gosh over three years now, um, is going to be the addition of windproof membrane to our Solitude franchise of gear. Moving that same membrane, which we can you know, talk more about the kind of the tech and the exciting part around that, but moving that into the Sanctuary franchise as well. Um. And then we have some some pretty um exciting you know, more active insulation pieces transitional layering pieces that we would call them in both the source which is kind of the white tailor's puffy jacket, if you will, and then um also the Origin Hoodie, which is kind of a you know, you're tried and true fleece mid layer you know, another active insulation mid layer piece. UM. So yeah, that's those are kind of the big hitters. For one, are those going to be available. They're all available as of now. There you go, we know what's what's coming down. Well, well it's all available. Now let's dive in and talk a little bit about what what it is. And I think we should go talk about the windproofness of these, the Solitude and the Sanctuary. I guess, like, tell me, first of all, why wasn't the old Solitude and Sanctuary windproof? That's a great question. So UM, you know, both of those pieces UM and our original iterations, we would call them highly wind resistant, and they were kind of wind resistant UM by nature because of the makeup. There are multiple layers of both textile and insulation, and as you start to you know, layer those things put them on top of each other, you're inherently creating a barrier for things to pass through. UM. However, we have always listened to customer feedback, We've always listened to you know, our team's feedback, and found, especially in the Solitude franchise, that just wasn't quite enough, which let us, you know, into our search for how do you make UM a piece like the Solitude not only windproof, which is really easy to do. It's really easy to make piece windproof. But where it gets where it gets hard, is how do you make it windproof and quiet um Because inherently a most windproof membranes, which is what you would use to make it windproof, would be noisy. Correct. Yeah, so most windproof membranes because they're they're they're a very shut down fabric, which means the weave is really tight um or they have some type of you know, post uh, we've finishing done to them. Like if you think of a traditional puffy jacket, you know, they're always kind of shiny um. That's like a sea is what they call it. So they essentially take a hot iron pressed on top of the fabric. It melts the surface of it. Um makes it a little more crispy, if you will, But it's basically plugging all the pores, which is why it's windproof. However, Okay, but we're talking more now about like the exterior fabrics, not so much like a membrane inside of the jacket. They're basically the same thing, right, So when somebody's putting a windproof membrane into a into a jacket, it's not dissimilar from most of the like the extr fabrics that you would see on like a puffy jacket. Really mh. But now you're gonna get a confused. But the exterior of a jacket is not usually like a breathable lamb in it or whatever they call it, right, Well, it depends, right, So if you look at like um, like a waterproof breathable for example, so a rain jacket that is inherently windproof because it's waterproof, so it's it's shut down enough that if water can't get through, wind's not going to come through either. Now, the process of making a piece like that, you're stacking layers of fabrics or membranes together. You're such a gluing them together. Right at a very high level, like simplistic way of thinking about it, You're you're building a sandwich out of these different materials um. But in like an outerwaar a piece like the Solitude for example, you know, which we originally started talking about. Most of the time, you know, people are accomplishing windproofness and a jacket like that by putting you know, what we call a membrane. But it's basically just a layer of fabric that has those same windproof um capabilities inside of that garment. So we call it technically a hanging membrane, so it's sewn in into your sandwich. Try to give a face fabric. You have insulation, you have this other quote unquote membrane or other piece of fabric that's windproof, and you have a liner and you put those together in a configuration where you're trying to trap as much heat as possible to keep yourself warm, and you're also keeping the wind from coming through that garment. And yeah, typically they're loud. So normally to get things windproof, like I said, you know, you have to do some type of finish that inherently makes it loud, or the type of the way the fabric is actually put together. You know, from the fiber level, it's done so in a way that it's noisy because it's so it's so tightly woven, or the nature of the fibers themselves, right, depending on what they are, um, they're just a louder material in order to get that windproof nows. So it's really kind of the you know, it's it's the unicorn, right, like, how do you get something to be windproof but not have a bunch of noise added to the garment When you added in there. Yeah, because anybody can just wear uh, you know, like a slicker exactly, and it could be completely wind roof, but it's gonna be hard hard to draw your bow on a on a buck and that thing exactly. And where it gets even worse is when those garments get cold. Right, Typically when things get cold, they get crunch here, right. Windproof membranes or textiles typically do the same thing. So that's really the you know, the hard nut to crack, and why it's taken us as long as we did. I mean, it would have been really easy just to grab a membrane off the shelf and throw it in that piece. But I know both of you guys have used the solitude before, and I think I would hope you'd agree. It's it's extremely quiet. I mean, that thing doesn't make any noise, right, So how do we maintain that quiet nature of that piece but yet add the windproof technology to it? Okay? So how did you do it? So? You know, we started with kind of these traditional membranes and just started plucking away, trying different weaves, trying different densities, trying different finishing techniques. You know. So we talked about like the cr A technique. It's like, you know, if you see a of fabric, what can you do to it after that? For example, like you know kind of like sand master or brush it to rough it back up right, because the more loft of fabric has, the quieter it's going to be. And we just started chipping away. It's like, okay, this works, this doesn't you know, use a finer fiber, finer fibers of you know, when you build a fabric out these fibers, the finer they are, the quieter they normally are. One of these. These fibers are mostly like a nylon fiber. Nylon Paul's yeah, I mean depending on the membrane you're talking about, they vary um and just you know, tried one variable at a time. It's like, okay, this finer fiber created a quieter membrane. Great, that's one step in the right direction. You know, adding some type of brushing to it um or or blasting to it after you know it was c or a Great, that's quieter. Let's put these two things together up. You know that didn't work. Back to the drawing board and just piece by piece by piece we worked with um you know, that textile manufacturer, and it took a couple of years to get to a point where we were happy with the windproofness and we were happy with the noise. So can you say you were working with that matter. Yeah, yeah, it's it's that's not something we would necessarily share with the world. So, but you but that that's cool that they would work with you for that long because so they didn't have a product, but they're like, okay, we'll try to make what you're looking for. And so you guys just kept going back and forth and finally they came up with it. Yeah, And I mean they had a ton of options. Right when we first went down this road, they had a whole deck of windproof membranes. You know, they're very used to working with high end outdoor apparel companies. They have other companies they work with in that high end outdoor space that use those other membranes. Just for us, we we couldn't. We had to we had to dial in the noise component of it, and that wasn't something that you know a lot of people ask for. Um, you know, even in like Western like you don't want to be if you're a Western hunter, you don't want to be super loud, but the noise just doesn't matter as much, right because you're not typically as close to these critters. Um, it's a different you know critter, it's a different pursuit, so it's a little less important. Where for the white tail guy or gal it's paramount like noises, you know, one of the most important things. So tell me if when when you guys had those early iterations and you guys would put it into a jacket and put it on, how how would that noise um present itself? Like what did it sound like if you had where you're like, man, this is no good. But what what like what was it like? Because you were still like wearing a soft, puffy solitude jacket, but inside there was this like yeah, I mean was it like saran rap inside your jacket? I mean it can present itself in a number of different ways. So you know, one of the noise issues we run into is like, yeah, like you think about like a Frido's or like a Derrito's bag rapper, right as you kind of manipulate that thing in your hand when you're trying to open it or you're grabbing chip side of it, has that crinkly, crunchy noise to it. So so membranes when you put them, even though you're putting them inside of a soft, puffy jacket, that noise is still you know, penetrating through the other textiles and you're hearing it. The other issue that you can run into UM is like a surface to surface we call it. So like when you go to draw your bow, the forearm of your jacket sleeve might rub against the chest of your jacket right as you're bringing that ball up or drawing it. And depending on where that membrane is, because it's a more typically a more rigid or like bordy um textile UM, as it scrapes against itself or there's contact there, you can get like a surface to surface noise as well. So the like from the feel of the old version of it, I guess to the new version with the windproof in it. Can you can you tell a difference, like when you the end user is going to fuel the outside the untreined gear. No. I mean if somebody like you know, for example, myself, I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars with these garments. If I'm in a room with no other background noise, right, and it's just me and the two jackets. I could probably pick out which one was which. But if you get in the field, there's always a little bit of ambient noise right leaves, their rustling is a little bit of wind. You know, squirrels are making noise, whatever birds are chirping. I can't tell the difference when I get out in the field, but just touching it you wouldn't feel difference either. Sweet, So you're just so when you buy the new jacket, you're just gonna have to trust greg that's in there because you're not going to be able to tell well. And the other thing too, write wind proof is great, especially at those temperatures in which you're wearing the solitude. If wind is permeating your garment, it's always gonna make you feel colder than the actual thermometer is reading. Right, So that's an important aspect for a garment that's supposed to be worn like the solitude for example. You know I always tell people like, once it gets below fifty down to like kind of that freezing point, you know, that's your sweet spot for that garment. And in those temperatures, winds matters, right, because a windy day when it's forty five feels a whole colder than a calm day when it's forty five. But the other cool thing about these membranes, um, and the other improvement that people are going to notice is obviously, if if the membrane is keeping wind from coming in, it's also keeping things from going out, right, So that garment is actually gonna hold more of your body heat. It's going to protect that, it's going to utilize your own you know, your body is a furnace, so it's utilizing that heat that you're producing to actually make the garment warmer as well. So it's kind of a two fold benefit. Right, you're keeping wind from coming in, you're also trapping, protecting, holding more of that heat that your body is generating to keep yourself warm while you're in the stand. Does it breathe like? Is it breathable as well? It does breathe, it's not going to breathe as much right as like its predecessor. Which that's where those pieces like the source or the origin. You know that I mentioned that white Tailor's puffey jacket or those fleece pieces really coming handy um because it's a one to punch, right, you have like your active insulation. So when you're walking into the stand, right, like sometimes people have a long walk in. Sometimes it's short. You know, in certain parts of the country it's bluff country. You've gotta climb a little bit elevation. Maybe you're hanging a tree stand, you're doing like a hanging hunt. During those activities, your body is generating heat and moisture, right, is the killer of staying warm. So if you're wearing a jacket that doesn't breathe really well um to do those activities, you're gonna soak yourself from the inside out. And it doesn't matter what you do. You know, as soon as you become static and you're sitting there, you're gonna get cold. Where those you know, transitional um or active insulation pieces, that's what you can wear into the stand and like that's your outer wear for more mild temperatures or maybe even the first half an hour that you're in there, because your body temperature is up, that's gonna allow that heat to move away from your body, right, so that moisture moves away from your body. And then you pair that with a piece like the solitude like we're talking king about which is the static insulation piece UM that goes over top. And now what was your outerwear for your you know, higher exertion activity becomes like your mid layers. So that's why I was called like transitional outerwear because it can be both UM and the combination of those two pieces and a kit is what's going to keep you the most comfortable, you know, during a hunt both walk in than the static period of sitting there right and then your walk out. Yeah, I would say that, like unless you're just like a super skinny, just like a like a Stephen ronnella type bony dude, right, Like, You're not gonna hike in anywhere with the solitude jacket on, right. You got to know how to use that gear properly exactly. I mean, if I have let's call it a two yard walk to a stand that's already set, then I don't have to hang it. I may walk in with that jacket and the zipper open right, walking very slowly exactly, you know. And if I have the bibbs on, I'm probably have those side zippers all oil. Because what I don't want to do is I don't want to build up a bunch of moisture within that clothing system that can't permeate out, because that's what's gonna make me colder sooner once I get to the static portion, which is of a white tail hunt. And man, that's it just comes down to moisture management, you know. And uh, it's uh. I think it's still something that a lot of people are still like learning and figuring out. It's probably something we'll I'll work on for the rest of my life, right is just trying to like dial it in because it just depends on like, yeah, are you gonna do that two yards in two minutes or maybe you have time to take twenty minutes and like literally not bring your body tamp up at all, you know. But there's I've talked to mountaineers that go up, you know, mountains in the winter and they're literally wearing one bass player as you're doing that, because it's like they's they say, it doesn't matter if I'm gonna get wet from my sweat or I'm gonna get wet from the rain or from snow. Like I'm generating so much heat that like sure if it gets like crazy winding and stuff, you have to put a shell on, but like that basically is going to be soaking no matter what, and so they just like their way to manage it is like it's soaked, but they're working in it, and as soon as they stop, they'll actually just take that off and put on like a dry one or a dry mid lighter or whatever and then put on their insulation, right, And that's how they manage it. For hunters, I think it's a little bit different because you often like that doing that is too much movement, too much noise. You know, you have to your system has to be able to basically work on the go, and then all of a sudden you get stopped for whatever reason, maybe on your way to the stand, you know, you run into a box or whatever, or do you see some eyes in the dark, and you just have to stand there for ten minutes and let those deer pass on by. Your system has to keep you warm for those ten minutes, you know. Um So anyways, a lot to like all of us will be figuring that out for some time to come. But when it's sixty plus first week in November, it does not make me a happy white tail hunter, no, no, And it's it's so hit or miss right, like you get that maybe that's sixty especially, you know, I think you're spending the first week in November in Wisconsin. Um, you know, we'll get one of those every three years where that happens. But man, I tell you what when that if it is sixty, when that kind of warm front breaks and it gets cold, But you live in Wisconsin, so you'll be there for it, be heading home already. But well, and I think to your point, Yeanhni, I think it's something that hunters are continuing to try and figure out, and especially in the white tail space, I think that concept might be more foreign because our walks in are typically shorter, we don't have as long of high exertion periods. But it doesn't make it any less important right to manage that moisture. And I think that's why, you know, while wind provadwear is super exciting, I get almost as excited and more excited about pieces like the Origin right that like mid layer fleece piece, or the source jacket like the white tailor's puffy jacket, because those are pieces that I get to utilize my entire season, you know, like the beginning of the season, that's my outerwear they're always with me as I move into the middle of the season or the even the end of the season. It's like that's when I'm wearing from the truck into the stand and I stay super comfortable and dry, and then I get to really put those outerwear pieces UM together with them to build this like kind of bulletproof system that you know, when you're only sitting two hours. If you do make a mistake and you get wet and get cold, it's not the end of the world. You can tough it out, but it's just not as enjoyable. You're mentally not there as much right because you're thinking about being cold. Um. You know, it's harder to execute a shot. So any of those things that can tip, you know, or change the percentage of your comfort, even just a little bit, can be a big deal, especially in the first week in November when you know you should be sitting in the stand all day going into like the Sanctuary. Is there a point at what point would you recommend then people purchase the Sanctuary over the Solitude UM or transition to that if they are able to have both pieces. That's a great question. I mean my cut off as always like right about freezing. So if it's below you know, thirty two degrees fahrenheit and I have the sanctuary available, that's what I'm going for. Like, that's the high. Yeah, that's the high, right, So anything above that, I don't even touch it. Um however, you know what I do tell people as well as like, if you want to build a really versatile system, you know, if you add call it the source puffy jacket which we've been talking about, to the solitude, that's essentially bringing it to the level of the sanctuary. So if you paired those two pieces together in a kit, it's like you kind of have that source jacket, which is your earlier season ottaware piece. You transition to the solitude by itself for kind of your super Bowl, right that like rut Ish time and most Midwest states. And then if you do end upending hunting some late season, you can pare that back with the solitude to get it to the level the sanctuary. If you're doing a lot of late season stuff like consistently sitting twenty and below, you're not going to be the sanctuary. It's just insanely warm. It's the best piece out there. But there are some ways to kind of accomplish that level of insulation with a more of a system or a kit, right, But that's kind of always, you know, to answer your original question, that's kind of always my like, my cut off point is like below freezing sanctuaries obviously the best bet anywhere before that, you know, you can kind of use the Solitude with other basin mid layers to accomplish what you need. Yeah, that's exactly what I wore last year the day I killed my buck, because I had a like a wig bass layer. I had my source jacket and then I put on once I dried out, you know from my walk and I had a good walk, Like I thought it was gonna be like half an hour forty five minutes and I think it ended up being like an hour fifteen and uh was plenty warm enough by the time I got to the tree, which then I had to you know, put sticks in and climb up into. So what Yeah, once I dried out, I put my Solitude on. Was comfy all day. Yeah, that's a super I mean what you just mentioned is, I mean that's kind of my go to. You know, that's a really versatile kit that's going to take up the majority of your season as a white tail hunter. All right, let's move on because we gotta we're gonna need to know more about the source jacket. Um, the fleece. To me, it's like a fleece. I mean, you can check it out. It's we've had it out for a whole year now, right since last of all. Right, the origin just just spring it came out, just dropped the sprints, right, Okay, we've been using it for for that long. But it's cool. It's got like a built in face mask, it's got the hoodie's got built in thoam loops, it's got little kangaroo pocket for keeping your hands warm. But to me, it's not as exciting as a source jacket. So tell me, like, tell me the build on this source jacket. Yeah, so, um, it's the white tailor's puffy jacket. Right. Puffy jackets are great. We all know them because of their warmth and weight ratio, meaning that they're very light, they're very pacable, but they provide a lot of warmth, you know, for that smaller, lightweight package. Inherently, if you think about the characteristics of a traditional puffy jacket, they're not great for white tail hunting because they're not super durable UM, and they're loud. Those are two things that as white tail hunters we need. We need durability in our gear and we need to be quiet. So what we did with the source is solve both of those problems. UM. We built a synthetically insulated puffy jacket UM and as eight E Grahams of Primu off gold stretch insulation in it. UM. We used a really durable face fabric so you don't have to worry about walking through brush. Um. You know, if you get caught in a thicket on your way into the stand in the dark, or you're dragging a deer out where you're hanging a stand. Um, it's meant to do all those things. It's gonna hold up to it UM. So that's where the durability comes in. It's a really quiet face fabric UM. And then you know stretch insulation, stretch lining, so you get a piece that can pack down, you know, pretty small. It can live in your pack all season. Um, it's your outerwear kind of early season and more mild temperatures. And then you know, like you said, yahning in November last year, it's like a solitude goes great over it when you get into some of those colder temperatures. So the best way I can describe it is like it's a quiet durable, you know, versatile like mid layer in the early season and then or excuse me, outer wear in the early season and mid layer in the late season. Where do you because where do you think it falls sort of on like a wind resistant scale. Yeah, that's a great question. So you know I was talking about static versus active insulation. You know, static you want to trap all of your body heat. You want it to be shut down because you're not moving, so you really need to conserve and save all that body heat. Were like an active insulation piece you wanted to keep you warm because it's you know, it's cold enough that you're wearing insulation, but you need it to breathe. Now, this is really a pursuit specific jacket. I would say, like if you're a Western hunter, your active insulation needs to be extremely breathable because you're doing a very high exertion activity like climbing up a mountain, you know, putting on a lot of miles. For white tailors, we need our active insulation to breathe, but not quite as much. Right, it's almost like it needs to be breathable, but it still needs to block some wind, it still needs to be a little bit more shut down. So what we really did is we didn't target, We didn't try and build this piece for a Western hunter. We built this piece to be breathable enough for white tail hunts, but also be you know, somewhat shut down enough where when you're wearing it his outerwear, you're not feeling the slightest breeze come through that piece. So I really call this like white tailor's active insulation. Like I would agree with that too, Like where in a Wisconsin I had it was it worked perfect I did. I did test it, you know what cat hunting this winner and did some like mega hikes in it, and definitely, like I could tell that I was putting more moisture into it than it could handle, you know, drying out or breathing. As we say, you know, I can know that it's a good way to look at like breatheability is basically you're saying, like how far fast a garment will dry? Is that safe to say? Um? Because it's just like how much air will will move through it? Right? And uh, yeah, so it's like, yeah, I did. If you're gonna go like still hunting all day and plan on putting like miles and miles in, I guess it always depends on just how much you're exerting. Right. If you're not doing a lot of exertion, it's great, But like if you're gonna like be like huffing and puffing, like you're saying, going up a mountain, you probably want to look at something that's a little more breathable. Right. Well, that's what's cool about this piece too, because like it was built for that specific hunter, right, Like this is built for the amount of exertion a white tail hunter is gonna do. And like I hunt in western Wisconsin a lot too. It's you know, driftless area, bluff country, and I can easily you know, hike up and down a few ridges in this thing, hang a set in it, and I'm not soaked through because it's breathable enough for those activities. And then when I climb into the stand, it's not gonna let every single bit of breeze come through. It shuts that down a little bit. Um. It's really you know, it's built for those activities. Wasn't there like another uh layer in there, and maybe that's just part of the premium loft goal, but another layer that actually like reflects your heat back to you in that jacket, not in that one. So in that not in that one. No. So um, there are with you know, certain primu off instulations or you can just add them in, like what's called a scrim um. And what that scrim does is two things, like to not to go too far into the weeds. But even synthetic installations, they're built like a sheet, right, So it's all these fibers that are woven together and you can you know, it comes on a roll. You can unroll it and essentially looks like a sheet of fabric, but it's lofted. Um. Even those fibers, they'll migrate through some textiles, like you know, in your down puffy jacket, sometimes you get little feathers coming through at the seams or whatever. Um, when you build a down jacket, you have to have a downproof textile to keep those feathers from migrating through. But even synthetic fibers can migrate through textiles. So if you don't have you know, a textile that is resistant to that migration, you have to put a scrim in there to keep those fibers from migrating through, and a scrim is basically just another layer, another layer. Yeah. Some scrims like you just mentioned will actually reflect body heat back to you as well, so you're capturing more of that. But that gets more into like a static installation piece, because you don't want to be capturing more heat when you're trying to do something active in a piece. Cool nice. Could you roll through those those insulations again in that source jacket and talk about the Primo off Gold a little bit more, Yeah, of course. So, um, you know, basically the sandwich of that is kind of a durable, um stretched face fabric. Then it's the Prema off Gold insulation, so it's a prem off Gold stretch, which is really important because this piece is meant to move with you and not against you, especially because you're layering it under other outerwear. You want that piece to move and stretch so you don't get the like michelin Man effect where you feel like you can't move your arms. Um, So that stretch is really really important. The other thing that is important with stretches because you're sometimes wearing that as a mid layer and sometimes wearing it as outerwear. You want to be able to put different amounts of stuff underneath it, right, So Yanni mentioned that he just had a wick underneath it. Um. You wanted to fit comfortably UM and be you know, athletic and trim in that situation, but you also want to be able to say where you're wick and then maybe an Origin hoodie or a Kiln hoodie and still be able to wear that jacket on top. So that's where the stretch is really really important in a like that UM, And I guess kind of just for reference, so there's it's eighty grams of insulation or a d g s M s grands per square meter UM. So like the Solitude, for example, has a hundred UM, the Sanctuary has two hundred. So if you kind of put it in the spectrum of those pieces, it's our most lightly insulated piece in our in the category of white tail insulation. Does it come in solids? It does not. Killing me Greg, I would I'm gonna wear a little bit as my as just the everyday jacket inspector, but you know, if you could get me one in the gray, I wish I would wear it even more is my everyday jacket, because I think that jacket has the capability to because I wear like basically a lightweight, like a lot of times I wear the brooks, you know, and to be in something a little bit softer to the hand, I think I would like that better. You know, I wear mine a lot as a everyday pete. Well not the one that I wear into the woods, but I have one that I wear is an everyday piece as well. But yeah, I mean you're definitely towing the casual camel line, right because we don't have it in solids, But you don't wear the one you take in the woods because of scent. Correct, you're pretty hardcore on the scent. I am. I am very hardcore. Didn't you build build in some pretty specific sent uh technology into these pieces? Yeah, So most of our synthetic pieces in the white Tail line um have what's called a high Q treatment. So high Q is an anti microbial um. You know, some people have heard like poly gen um. It's a very similar. So it's a treatment um that goes onto these textiles and what it does is inhibits the growth of bacteria. So when you go out into the few you know, you sweat, you're perspirating, whether it's actual you know, whether you're sweating in the liquid form or whether you're putting off you know, gaseous perspiration like maybe not the liquid form meet. It creates a moisture rich environment that's good for bacteria to grow. Bacteria is what inherently causes scent, right, So if you can inhibit the growth of bacteria, you can limit or prolong how long it takes before those garments start to smell. UM. So that's one piece of technology that's gonna help with scent. The other one is you know a lot of if you go through and I'm not we don't need to go through the whole list, but if you're, say you're on the website looking at white tail pieces, if you notice anything that's built with a thirty seven point five technology, UM, that's a fiber that's used to build fabrics that we build into these technolog or into these garments, and the thirty seven five fibers essentially what they're doing is um, they're actually also inhibiting the growth of bacteria or like the attachment of odor at the particle level. So it's kind of a one to punch with those technologies. Now, that doesn't mean these garments are gonna be sent free. Right at the end of the day, we as human beings have a sent to us. We smell to animals, right, and you can never eliminate that. I mean, I'm sure you guys remember the days of like carbon suits and things like that, right, Um, And I'm a firm believer in scent control. I still don't think you can fool the nose of a mature white tail. You know, if the wind's blown right at them, they're still gonna smell you. But I think you can do things to stack the odds in your favor where maybe if you get like a questionable wind and he would have picked you up if he didn't do those things, you know, you might get away with something. It buys you a second or two exactly. Maybe that's all you need exact give me the quick and dirty for your scent control system. Um. So, first and foremost, it's not getting those garments into contact with odors as much as possible, so storing them and sent free containers. You know, I'm not taking these things on and off in my Do you buy those like actual like made for white tailors sent free containers. You just use like a rubber made tote. I actually kind of made my own, So I took a rubber maid toe and essentially take like a rubber gasket, UM and put it around the lid so it keeps air from moving in and out. UM. So I do that, like I always keep those in the back of my truck. They never come in my truck with me. UM. I always get dressed in the field. So I pull up to my spot, I'm pulling that bin out of my truck. I'm getting dressed in the field. UM. And it's just for me. It's eliminating as many touch points as possible right where foreign odor could get in contact with those garments. UM. I do treat my garments with ozone. Ozone OH three is the chemical makeup of it. It's what you smell like when it rains. Because I don't know how nerd do you want to get in science here, but by basically OH three or ozone, it's UM. It's not a stable compound because oxygen likes to exist in O two that's the oxygen we breathe. So NO three molecule basically what happens like from the scientific standpoint is it doesn't last very long as an ozone molecule. That's why, like when it rains, you smell it, right, and then very soon after you don't smell it anymore. Because what happens is why do you smell it when it's raining? So ozone has a like a scent to it, that's kind of what you smell when it's raining. But why is it present in the when it's raining. I think it has to do and don't quote me on this, but what's happening, especially when there's a thunderstorm and there's lightning, you're putting energy into a system and it's causing some of these molecules to bind together that normally wouldn't. I don't know the exact science behind like the rain storm or thunderstorm, but I know that something with putting energy into that system. Three yea, you smell it, rainstorm goes away, it goes back to being mostly O two. You don't smell it because one of those auction molecules will come off of that, right, so you end up with one O two and one oxygen by itself, which it also doesn't like to exist as so that's gonna bond to another oxygen molecule or the same thing happened, right, But that process of that one oxygen molecule kind of ripping off O three and becoming O two, right, that one that's it's like a radical, free radical, I believe it's what it's called um because it doesn't like to be by itself. It's trying to bind to things. And that process of that free radical oxygen molecule, that's what's neutralizing odors or killing bacteria. So you can use you know, some people use ozone in their stand like an ozone generator, and they try and use it to mask their scent. Right. That's a little machine that goes above them and dumps oxygen like in the windstream. So some mask their scent um. But from a like treating of closed standpoint, it's going to eliminate um or neutralize some of those odors that might be in your garments. That's another thing. Is that a wash in No, it's a little it's like a generator. It's a little electronic machine so you can stick in the bin with your clothes or or how do you get it on into clothes? Yeah, Or there's like you know, there's companies like um Ozonics that make like lockers right where you can like hang all your clothes in there, and then there's a bunch of companies that make systems. I've kind of just made my own, um. So that's one thing. I typically don't wash them unless they're like dirty, um from getting blood on them or super muddy or anything like that. Like I'll wash them maybe once or twice a season. Um. But the reason for that is just to basically enhance the performance of a textile. Like I'm sure you guys have heard, like rainware, it doesn't work great when it's dirty, right because mud is clogging the pores and it doesn't allow the garment to work as effectively. Some of the technologies that are in these white tailed pieces the same thing. So you want to keep your gear clean. But for me, that's a touch point where it's like I have to bring it into my house, I have to wash it right, so like it's coming in contact with those other odors, which it's more important for me to avoid than like having some a little bit of mud or blood on my clothes. So I try and limit that to just, you know, maybe once or twice a season. I'm still on old school. I still like to So right right now, my whole solitude kit is in a duffel bag, which is probably I should probably get a better BN for. But it's in a duffel bag and there's like a couple of pine bals and maybe like I don't know, a couple of dozen oak leaves in it. And then when I get it to camp that i'll probably I should probably leave it at camp in Wisconsin, but I always feel like something's gonna come up. I'm gonna need it out here. But then when I get there, I put it on a hangar and we have like a giant, like I don't know, it's probably sixty by, you know, twenties some foot deck, but it's covered. I just hang all my stuff on hangars and then just let that's where it just lives during the whole hunt. It's like it just lives out on the deck. We don't cook out there, no one's smoking these cigarettes, and so the breeze is just constantly on it, and I just feel like it's sort of just absorbs the environment around it. Yeah, it smells like what's there, right, Yeah, I mean the woods are like ten ft away when it's when it's sitting there under that deck, you know. Yeah, I mean I think everybody's got their system, and I'm not by any means claiming that mine is right. It's just like I think confidence going into the field is a big thing, and this is what makes me the most confidence. Like I'm trying to stack, you know, any little odd in my favor, because like if you do a couple of things and each thing maybe changes your odds like one percentage point, it's like, well, after a while, you're five percent better, right, and that could give you that extra second or two seconds, Like you're just talking about, there's nothing worse man than seeing like a dough, uh pick up on your either like your trail that you walked or had a dough two years ago. Walks like she was coming in just fine, just fine, just fine, And she literally got within you know, two feet maybe of the tree I was in and I think she smelled the step, or she smelled my boot on the step, I don't know, or maybe she smelled just me climbing up the tree. But she got so close to that tree, that's something off the tree she smelled, and it like I don't know for sure, if it cost me. But she left and then like ten minutes later, I think it was the same dough with a big buck behind her. Is she's getting rutted down below me, and it looked as though the buck was trying to push her towards me. But she took a circuitous route and kind of left the bowl. You know, we're normally I don't see deer moving, and I just wonder if, like, man, that was it it cost me. She smelled my step. You know, I've had him even to where it's like, you know, you bring four steps into the woods because you're gonna hang a set and you don't know how many you'll need, and you'll end up needing three and you make the mistake of like leaving the fourth one at the base of the tree. And I've had a dough come in and like pegg that step at the base of the tree. And you know, to your point too, it's like filter off or whatever. But it's incredible. I mean, obviously it's their best asset in terms of keeping themselves safe. So all right, transfer pack, about time, Greg, Yeah, we needed a white tail pack, windproof and white tail pack, right. Yeah, So this has been another one that's been to your point a long time coming. We've been building this thing for over two years now, um, and really we wanted our foray into white tailed packs to check, you know, of the boxes for the people that are going to use it. I think packs are somewhat like boots where they're specific to people, right, Like everybody has specific needs or want. Some people want a wide boot, some people want to narrow boot, you know. Some people want their pack to be able to carry a tree stand, some people don't. So figuring out a way where, you know, we could build a pack that does all of those things and then you can choose to utilize the features that are important to you. If you need a day pack right because you're walking into a pre hung set or blind and it's not that far functions really well as that if you're a guy that's you know, doing a lot of hanging hunts um or a gal that's running a saddle and you know, taking your sets in and out every time, like, it's gonna function really well for that too. So I would say it's it's the most feature rich white tail pack on the market with regards to what it can do. It can haul a tree stand, it can haul sticks, it can haul your bow, UM, but it can also UM car compartmentalize the stuff that we as white tail hunters need to bring into the field to keep yourself organized. UM. And really it was designed around this process that we all do as white tail hunters and making that process the most efficient. So, you know, we pull into our spot, we get our stuff out of our vehicle, and we're packing that pack at the truck. Then we go into the woods and whether we're hanging a tree stand, climbing up in new saddle, or climb up in an existing set, we have to get that pack into the tree right and then we unpack it and then we reverse that process going out. So what we want to do is design a tool that was efficient for all those processes, and it was built, you know, with that order of operations in mind, but then also something that was a tool that was helpful in all those situations. Because you can design something that works really well for getting gear into the field and out of the field, but if it doesn't help you when you're in the tree, you know, what's the point of bringing it in. So something that functioned as well or as much became as much of a tool for you while you were in the tree as it was getting things in and out of out of the woods. I like it, So tell me it'll carry You'll say it's It'll carry my sticks in my platform, no problem, and then inside it will carry my snacks, my coffee, extra layer. Yep. Can I carry my solitude jacket and bibbs? You in it? Somehow you can shove. You could squeeze both your bibs and your jacket into it. It would be tight. That's probably about max capacity if you didn't have a lot of I'm gonna put my snacks in my thermos. So what I would do, and I'm glad you brought this up is um. There's also a bunch of molly paneling on there, as well as some other lashing points, because I like to actually walk in with my layers not in my pack but outside my pack, because that way, when I get to my spot, I can put my layers on and I don't have have to open my pack until I get up into the tree. So we have some lashing straps that are attached for multiple purposes, carrying layers, carrying your bow. But there's also molly paneling on the sides and the bottom where you could use like a gear strap UM to attach other things as well, if you want the pack to be more modular. Okay, does it have a load bearing hip belt? It does, so it actually has an internal frame UM. And one of the problems with you know, a lot of white tail packs on the market is you can attach say a bow or a tree stand to the back of the pack, the outermost portion. But the problem is you're then putting all of your weight at the furthest point away from your body, and that pack becomes really uncomfortable. So what we've done with this pack is it actually has a back panel with an internal frame, a load carrying frame, and you can actually remove the bag from that frame with one zipper. You attach your tree stand to the actual load bearing portion of it, which that frame runs into a hip belt, and then you can reattach the bag very simply. Um, you kind of create the sandwich around the top of your stand. Yeah, you can't create this sandwich. So it's like back panel tree stand pack if you choose to carry one into the field. If you don't, then that pack just always lives right next to that back panel. And like I said, it's one zipper to attach it. So it's not a bunch of straps. It's not a bunch of you know, clipping things shoe. It's a U shape zipp or the is all the way. So if there's a tree stand in there, though, how does the then close? So once you so you separate the bag from the back panel, you know there's straps to attach the tree stand to that back panel. When you go to put the bag back on, um, it attaches via a strap system at that point. I see, So the zipper is really only engaged when you're not using that function. Yep, exactly, sweet. Um. But even when you go to the way the pack is designed, um, and there's some quote unquote load lifters that are part of the system. Even when you go to put the pack back on, if you're using a tree stand carrimo, you still have the ability to connect those load lifters from the pack to the actual frame. So all of that weight is being transferred to the frame and the back panel, which makes it really comfortable to carry a stand and sticks and gear. You don't feel like that things constantly pulling your back and you're fighting against it. Nice, So I got I stand or maybe for me it would be my my, my sticks in my platform in there, I get to the tree, take those out of there. Then is that zipper quiet enough or I can close that pack back up and then not spook definitely any deer in the area. And that's the great thing is once you take those things off. I mean a lot of times we're at the base of our tree and what it's dark because we're either going in or coming out. So all you have to do is one zipper and that things reattached. You're not trying to loop straps through. Um, you're not trying to you know, clip things back together. The other thing that one of my favorite parts is um. Let's say you're in tree stand carry mode, right, so you take your stand off of their You always have all those straps then that you use to attach that stand to the back panel. What do you do with those when it's cold and it's dark. It's always a pain trying to roll them up, get them organized right, get them back in there. So we actually built in it's like a stretch pocket, like a big mess stretch pocket, and all those straps you can just shove right in that pocket. You don't have to worry about rolling them up or lashing them down. So it's really you know, all those small parts and pieces. It's like, how can we do this as easy as possible, as quite as possible in the dark, on my way in her way out right, And they were just those straps would just live in that stretched pocket always, so then you're let's not get home. You gotta then roll it up and talk them away. That's just how they live. And their color coordinated. So you have two horizontal straps, two vertical straps, their color coordinated, so when you do pull them out of that pocket, you know exactly which one goes to which You're not trying to figure that out, and they just live there. Awesome, Okay. Next, uh, this is really important for me is how does that pack attached to the tree once I'm up in there? Great questions see if two options UM. Option one, which is the way I like to use it, is there's a hanger loop, a reinforced loop on the um lid of the pack, so basically the top point of the lid UM. And you can do that in number of ways you can. I've hung it off of my last stick. I sometimes bring an extra tree step in or hook that I screw into the tree. I can hang it off of their UM. Certain companies UM make like a strap system, you know, like Tethered has their hiss strap and hang stuff off. Yeah, that's usually what I do. Yeah, you can hang it right off of there with the carabiner. And the cool thing about hanging it from that point is that it's going to hold your lid open, and the entire pack hangs off of that lid, so it essentially turns into like a bucket in the tree, so the inside of the pack is exposed. You have access to all of these there's seven internal mesh pockets UM for keeping stuff organized, so you can get into all of those things very easily. Essentially just like reaching next to you into this like bucket if you will UM or if it's let's say it's you know, ray in your light, snow and you don't want that precipitation getting into that pack. There's another very similar hanger loop at the base of the lid, closer to the back panel. If you hang it from that, the little then naturally cover up that bucket to keep your rain or snow or precipitation out of your gear. That's inside of it. What's the what's the closure for the lid? It's just like a side release buckle. Yeah, and that's adjustable too. So if you have, for like your earlier example where you want to put your Solitude bibbs and jacket in there, you can adjust um that lid closure to be as tight or as loose as you want, so you can actually add some volume or capacity to that or suck it in. Right if you're just using as like an early season day pack and done have much stuff in there, So it does have some variability, and you know essentially how much room you have in that thing based off of you know, how you kind of suck that lid in, as well as the compression straps on the side ice. I'm excited to try it. Oh yeah, I can't wait. Uh what about exterior fabric? I mean you must have made it quiet, right, Yeah, So the exterior fabric is actually the same face fabric that you'll see on the Solitude or Sanctuary or Whitetail catalyst. So we all know how quiet those pieces are. Your pack is gonna be just as quiet whether you're brushing up against it. You know, you're pulling things in and out of it. UM. You know you're getting into the tree, that pack is essentially as quiet as your outerwear, which is obviously hugely important for for us when we're up in the tree, sweet back to the back to the wind proving real quick, Greg, are we going to see that in other garments? Yeah? So right now, UM, as I mentioned, like, you're seeing that in our outer wear systems are insulated outerwear systems solitude and sanctuary. UM. But that being said, you know, we're on a on a long term to your plus development next cycle and I think you know it is of utmost importance for me and for us to continue to explore what other pieces that may be appropriate in UM. And that's something that's you know, always on on top of mind, UM, and that we're looking into. But for right now, UM, it is in basically insulated outerwear. And the reason for that is it kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier, like those active versus passive insulation pieces and time of year. You know, typically if it's warm enough that you're not wearing a solitude UM. You know, so it's fifty or above, that wind matters a little less and being able to dump heat on your way in because it is warmer matters more, right, So it's it's choosing the appropriate places to have the windproofing and the appropriate places to have you know, a little bit more breathability and moisture management in those garments. Got I'm gonna be pushing hard for a soft shell with the with your quiet windproof layer in it, windproof soft shell. Hmm, I'll add it to my notes. Yeah, you Matt Derosier's Ben Flandre. You guys aren't gonna hear the end of it here. Me quit squeaking until I get to try one of those on, so we'll know we did our job when he quit squeaking. That's right, perfect, Greg, thanks so much for coming onto the gear Talk podcast and tell us all about the brand new, exciting first Light white tail gear. I'm I'm really appreciative of the work you've done over there at first Light last few years in the white tail category. Man, we've, like, I hear a lot of people saying that they're really stoked with their first light white tail gear, and uh, it's all although I don't get to pound it as you know, in it as much as like Taylor Chamberlain. The little bit that I've gotten to use it, you know what, I've probably got thirty days in it, like I've definitely to have you with it too, So good work, um, But yeah, thanks for coming by and hopefully all you listen got to got to learn something, especially about moisture management and uh breathability and wind proofness. But if there are other things you want to hear Us Jordan and I talk about, you can send questions to via email gear talk at the meat eator dot com. And then also we have a page on the meat Eator website which you're just gonna you can either go to the podcast tab and hover over it and then find gear Talk. You can just search gear talk. But we're gonna have a comment section there underneath each episode and there's like a follow up question from this episode or if there's just like I said, whatever you want to hear us talk about or dive into, you know, put your questions there, comments there, and we'll do our best to answer from at least hit on them some how. And that will be the place too that once we start sort of asking you guys maybe to chip in on some of this upcoming white tail or any kind of first Light gear for that matter. Um, that will be the place where we're going to have this conversation about you know, what you guys might want to see as far as like features or pieces of gear that first Light doesn't offer you yet. So there you go, either gear talk at the meter dot com or go to the Mediator website and go to the podcasts tab and then find the gear talk page. Thanks for listening, See you next time.