00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast. I'm Dirk Durham and I'm in the beautiful state of Oregon with my good friend Ron Hewitt. Now. Ron is a man who I admire and look up to. He's like almost like a grandfather type figure to me, or a fatherly figure. You know, my dad, my grandfathers have all long passed away, and I feel like that's something that's important in a person's life, is to have someone like that to talk to and to talk about life and hunting and and just you know, we've been bouncing ideas off each other all weekend here, you know, talking about just life, life decisions and and things we did in life. And it's awesome to have that kind of a person to talk to. And I think I think society today kind of misses out on some of that. You know, there's such a big push with some political folks to take down the patriarchy and all this stuff. But I think that's that's it's an important thing we all need in our life because we can learn a lot from the people who've done things a lot longer than we have and have kind of learned went through life, done some things, made mistakes, made the right choices, and here we are talking about turkey hunting and elk hunting. What am I doing in Oregon? Well, I'm over here at Ron's every year for the last four years he's hosted me. He's like, you know, you got to come over and go turkey hunting. It seems like we're kind of hit and miss. You know what, one year I'll get one and one year I won't. One year I get two, and one year I don't, you know, and kind of back and forth. But it wasn't for a lack of opportunity. Sometimes I'm just not the straightest of shooters with a shotgun, Like how do you miss a turkey with a shotgun? But anyway, welcome to the show. Ron. I've talked a lot about you on I've talked to you about you on my podcast. I've talked to you about you on Jim Huntsman's podcast because Jim knows you, and I finally I've got you on the podcast to talk to you. So welcome. 00:02:16 Speaker 2: Thanks Derek. I really appreciate it, and I love talking with young people like you that are excited about I call you young because I'm twenty two years older. But I appreciate that and the fact that you want to mentor people and help them, and that you're love for hunting in life and your love for happiness and family. It really means a lot to me. Your friendship means a lot. Yeah. 00:02:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy where people people's lives intersect and we've been talking about your life, We've been talking about my life, you know, and non hunting life, and you know where we've lived, what we've done for work, all these different things places we've been, and it's funny we have these little places in our lives that have intersected. And we didn't know each other. We still had never known each other or ever knew of each other, ever existed until I think it was a few several years ago. On both side, there's a there's a forum online forum called bo site, and I would always get on there and read people's comments on topics and questions, and I'd try to put in my two cents, and one day Ron messages me direct messages me on there and said, so, I think you talked to something about you know, this area in North Idaho that I hunted and wondered if I hunted there is near the town I grew up and wondered, you know, wanted to kind of compare a little bit of notes, and we kind of start talking there a little bit. And then fast forward a few years and you start seeing me on YouTube hunting, and you came by the booth in Portland at the Portland Show and introduced yourself, and we sat there and that booth and I we talked a long time, and we were like a couple of little schoolgirls, you know, and we look nothing like schoolgirls, but we sat there and talked and got excited and talked about those old places we'd like we'd love to go and their experiences those places elk hunting, and we became fast friends. Yep. And then you started inviting me over, so ye must. 00:04:17 Speaker 2: Need to come over and try turkey hunting the way I hunt turkeys in Oregon, not just sitting waiting for them to come to you, right, but finding them right. 00:04:26 Speaker 1: Yeah. And and let's face it, you know there's people. There's the camp that loves turkey hunting, and then there's the camps that say turkey hunting stupid. And I feel like people that say turkey hunting stupid or whatever, and then they hear the comparison of elk hunting versus turkey hunting, and people say, you know, there's a lot of similarities. You know, they they're kind of like hunting elk in the spring, and then that that will inflame some people they're like, it has it, there's nothing that they're nothing the similar But depending on how you hunt the turkeys and haunt elk, there are some similarities for sure. 00:05:03 Speaker 2: A lot of similarities. Is the way we hunt, the way you and I hunt both of them. Yeah, very similar yes, yes, And why I like turkey hunting. What I like about turkey hunting, Let's say, let's say this. What I like about turkey hunting is it's one of the best times of the. 00:05:20 Speaker 1: Year to be in the woods and the fall. I love elk hunting and deer hunting. The food the fall, like in September is amazing. You know, you're getting those last few days of summer, but you're starting to get those crisp mornings of fall. You still hear birds, you still hear bees, and then then the woods transition into October November, and it gets colder. Now the bugs are going dormant, the birds have left, and it's quiet. It's like the most quiet time you can he have in the woods is in like November, when there's a little bit of snow to like absorb any sound. There's not a bunch of birds flying around, there's no bugs, and the only sound you hear is your breath. And you also may hear a wolf, you may hear a deer grunt, you may hear some of these little little wildlife sounds. You might hear a squirrel in a tree. But the woods get very quiet in November, and then that kind of sets the stage for me. Things get quiet. Life kind of gets quiet for me. After hunting season, I kind of go dormant too. I kind of hibernate once I'm hunting season's over. I've been go, go go, and I've always been like this, you know, lots of driving to get to and from my hunting spots, spend tons of time in the woods, and then a lot of time away from family. And it's now time I'm going to hibernate. Now I'm gonna dedicate all this time to my family and staying home and in all winter long. Now I'm cooped up all winter, and by the time spring comes, I am ready to get the hell out of the house. I'm just sick of looking at four walls. I've got cabin feed, I've done all my stuff, whatever, my winter stuff, and it's like, I got to get to the woods now. Now contrast, you go to the woods in the springtime, the woods are starting to wake up, and year to years a little different on timing. You know, sometimes in April, you know, it's a little slower to wake up because it's been a little colder. You still have a little snow on the ground. This year, there's not any snow on the ground up where we were at to speak of. And it seems like we're a little further along in the in the seasonal aspect, it seemed, you know, the date aspect is the same, but the seasonal aspect is a little a little different. You know, we got bugs buzzing around, we got birds tweeting, and you know, and you got a little bit of warm sunshine. But today, today, but the last two days, was this frigid, ice cold wind that was blowing off the mountains and it's like, man, it's so pretty out, but dang, I'm freaking cold. 00:07:52 Speaker 2: You either thought it was the middle of November. 00:07:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, right right? Is that cold? But that's what I like about turkey, honey. It just gets get It gets me out there. I get to enjoy the woods, waking up in the spring, reconnect with nature, Yeah, reconnect. And also I love spending time with good friends in the woods and turkey season it allows me to do that. I spend time with my friends and people I love and enjoy their companionship. And guess what, we're chasing this crazy thing called the turkey. And they do some stuff that pissed me off, and they also do some stuff that make me giggle and be happy. So they can be frustrating, but yet they could be pretty dang fun to hunt too. So what is what do you feel? Is that kind of how you see turkey hunting or what do you like about turkey hunting? 00:08:44 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I started turkey hunting back in about nineteen ninety one or ninety two, and it was the fact that I'd been hunting elk, beagling for elk, and I knew turkey's gobbled and you can make them gobble. Yeah, this was I'm going, Okay, I want I want to hear this, I want to experience this, and when I was a kid. I lived in Redmond and up deer hunting a turkey full out of a tree one day and just scared the daylights out of me. And I thought, man, I want to find one of those things and get it and eat it, because I liked the fordage and take home things to eat. And when we lived and we're moved to now, it's like there's turkeys all around, and I started hunting them, and the gobble on the roost just excites you. But then when they start coming in, it's really exciting. And that was what really drew me to it, is that the similar is between calling elkin calling a turkey in the excitement of it and like you say, the springtime, I love getting out here in the weather and enjoying the sunshine and not so much the wind. I don't like that because it makes it really hard hunting. You can't hear anything, and it's kind of windy here. Oh it's kind of windy here. But yeah, that's the draw for me, is to I just love being outside in the woods and I can get out there more. 00:10:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say, while I'm turkey hunting, then I'll be going along. And we got these turkeys coming in or we're calling to these turkeys. And the funny part, the elk hunter brain in me immediately says, the wind is wrong. They're gonna smell me. I like, the turkeys are coming from this way, They're gonna smell me, like like immediately, that's the first thing that enters my head, like the wind's wrong. We got to move, and I'm like, oh yeah, we're hunting turkeys. It's it's that funny little hunter instinct. Like I've been hunting elk for thirty five years. I've been hunting. I've been hunting turkeys longer than that. If you can believe that, I've been hunting turkeys longer than that, really, and I've been more successful successful hunting turkeys than elk. I mean, excuse me, elk than turkeys. I've killed more elk than I have turkey. I've killed lot of turkeys, but I've killed way more elk. But anyway, there's the little things that trick in my brain while elk hunting trigger as well during turkey hunting. The turkey's coming in down when we got to move, Oh you don't, it's a turkey. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I have to remind myself that. And then as they're coming in, they're getting closer and getting gobbling, and I start feeling that my heart start beating a little bit heavier and faster, and I start feeling my breathing change, and I'm like, I'm starting to feel that same same feeling when I'm hunting elk. Now, when I'm hunting elk, I feel like it's a little more drastic. It's a it's a bigger heart beat, it's a bigger labor breathing. Right, I'm going making that funny breathing while I'm this bull's coming in. But I'm starting to feel some of those same things arise of same emotions with it was the turkey comes in. So you know, people pay good money for all sorts of like ways to to get an adrenaline rush. You know, they jump out of airplanes, they bungee jump, they do crazy reckless driving, they do all kinds of weird things to get an adrenaline rush. And those turkey hunting and elk huntings kind of scratch those itches. Now. Of course, elk hunting is a complete way, bigger adrenalage and rush. I got a eight hundred pound animal with swords on his head, coming coming to kill me, whereas a turkey he might he might peck you and flog you, he might spur me. That's not gonna happen, but you know, or the Elk's not gonna kill me once they find out I'm gonna I'm another animal, but they think like the turkey actually is coming in to breed rather than to fight, but the elk, he's coming to fight a lot of times. But anyway, it still triggers those same emotions. And I yeah that I like that. I like those feelings. You know, you just everyday life, normal life, you just don't get them. You know, there's there's not anything that really duplicates that unless you're doing daredevil stupid stuff. And I'm too old at our age, we just don't do that, you know. 00:13:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:13:05 Speaker 2: But part of it too is like in the morning when you when you find them on the roost and you're moving in the dark. Okay, where am I going to? Just like elk, am I gonna set up? I need a path I can get a shot in here. And then you get all set up and give them a few little calls and they're gobbling away at you and then they go quiet for five to ten minutes before they fly down and they're looking for their spot. You know, they're going to fly down, make sure there's no predators down there, and they go quiet, and you go, Okay, what's going to happen today? Easy? Got hands? Are they gonna take them away? They're gonna come to me? And then you wait for the drama to unfold once they hit the ground. Yeah, you never know. 00:13:44 Speaker 1: There's a lot of anticipation there. There is, Like I find myself same with Elk. I'll be like, oh man, please let this happen, Please let this happen. I have this little thin in the back of my little voice in the back of my head, please please let this happen, because I'm super hopeful they'll come in able to shoot them, but knowing that it doesn't work that way all the time. And it's just like most of the time most especially yeah, most of the time, even Elk, it doesn't work that way. But but there's always a chance, and you think, is this the one? You know, I'm like, I don't want to screw this up. So yeah, all those same emotions, do you think So do you think hunting turkeys is like cutting elk. 00:14:26 Speaker 2: Oh I think it is. I mean, obviously there's a size of difference you can see coming in once the brush and grass start growing up. A turkey, all you can see is the head sometimes and it's harder to get a lock on turkeys that way that it is an elk. But the turkeys, like you say, they can't smell, you don't worry about the wind. And yeah, I've I think there's a lot of similarities there and I just love it for the thrill of calling them in, you know, to try to beat them at their game. 00:14:58 Speaker 1: Now, when turkeys hang up, elk hang up, they I think this might be crazy opinion. I think it's easier to move in on a bull elk that's hung up than it is a turkey that's hung up. Because elk are so big. They make a lot of noise. You can they're standing, their their their face, their head gear, their bodies are at a level that sometimes above the brush line, and you can kind of spot them a little easier than you can a turkey. Like a turkey, they blend in so good unless they're and if they're not moving and where they're at, they're like their bodies are a lot of times are hidden by brush if it's a little bit you know, brushy country, But they got that damn periscope head. They'll pick up over the over the bushes, and a lot of times you just can't see it until it's too late and you hear and then go the way they go. So I think, I think it's easier to like move in on a hung up bull elk than it is a turkey. 00:15:55 Speaker 2: I agree, because the turkey's head is always moving. They're they're bob their head all around when their heads up and they're down feeding and they pick it up and jerk it around again, looking and yeah, like yesterday we saw him in the sun. He's out there fanning for his hands. He wouldn't come into us because he had his little ladies already, and we started moving in on him. Well, we get up close where we put the stock up to this one train. I thought we could get to get him there. He had moved, so now we have to move up again. So we sneak on up and I'm kind of looking over the edge where it goes into the shadows and the shade and I'm going looking through this little fir tree. I go oh, I think I see him down there. I thought, oh, there's his head. It's red, you know. I get my gun up on my shooting stick and go, dang it. I can't tell for sure if it's a tom or what. I'm sure it's the tom, but I can't tell for sure. And then he starts fanning. Okay, so he's fanning, and then he goes out of strut and I go, well, I can't see his head now, you know what did we do that for five minutes at least? 00:16:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very intense. 00:16:56 Speaker 2: Yeah it was. And then I'm trying to side step real slow so I can get a really good look at him. And by the time I get over there where I can see, he's not there. So it's like, gol, dang it. We head down the hill really slow, and I'm looking in front of me to the right because that's kind of where he was, had that, I think, And all of a sudden I catch him off on the left, the hand of the tom, and they start moving. And that was the end of the story on that one. 00:17:20 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but well that was so close, and that turkey you could have shot. 00:17:25 Speaker 2: I could have shot him through the tree if I knew what it. 00:17:28 Speaker 1: Was right right, and that as responsible sportsman hunters, we identify our target. Yeah, you know what if that would have been a guy down there moving his hat brim and you thought, oh, yeah, I see something moving and there have been turkeys there. The turkeys had bypassed him, but there was a guy sitting there and you're like, oh, yeah, I think I see something, I see something red. Maybe bang, you shoot that guy right in the nose or you know, it can happen. People get shot every year to hunting, So there's that aspect. It's not safe around other hunters. You could shoot another hunter then all also just catching the right movement, you think you see red, you shoot this turkey you get down there, it could be a hen. You know, we and it's it's easy to make that mistake and in a split second and you're sometimes your eyes will play a trick on you and like you and I don't know if it's because we wanted to like happen so bad. It's like, oh, yeah, that's the that's the tom. And then you shoot and then oh my gosh, that's not the tom. So that would be an unfortunate situation too. So we have to be super mindful of of what we're shooting at. And and that goes for for elk too, ye, elk deer, you name it. I mean that's you know, you know, have to make sure it's the right the right animal and not a person, and you know, get a good, good ethical shot. 00:18:46 Speaker 2: So and like yesterday, I you know, if I did shoot it and the hen was in and then I get two of them and so I could not tell for sure where the hen was and I needed to know that. So yeah, it was just a it was frustrating to say the least. 00:19:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, with a scatter gun or a shotgun, I mean, yeah, there's blowback. I mean you can take out two or three turkeys. It was at one like those jakes that come in, I could there was one. We had six jakes come in the morning. I shot my my turkey, and if I had to line them up just right, I probably could have mowed the whole works down. Yeah, they figure was Yeah, that was awesome. 00:19:22 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and the two big toms strut in the background behind them. 00:19:27 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:19:40 Speaker 1: Some of the mistakes I don't talk about mistakes made the last couple of days and what we did right, we didn't make a lot of mistakes, but I will say one mistake that I made as people don't and I didn't, and I know I knew better, but I didn't bring a range finder with me. You know, we're shooting with a shotgun, and I didn't bring my range finder. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I can judge yards pretty get out to fifty yards or whatever. I'll shoot a turkey at fifty yards with my with my shotgun. And we had this these birds they come off the roost and they came up, took a line a little higher than us, and and we had to get up and sneak up, sneak up, sneak up to try to intersect them. As they come strutting by. They weren't coming to us. They were gonna kind of go over and they were kind of feeding along, but they would strut everything, going to strut every now and then and then but as as they start, as we see what's happening, we got to climb up this little hill just a little bit real slow and maybe try to intersect intercept them. And I get up there, get up there and get a position. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that turkey's close, and he's he's fifty yards, you know, and I put my my red dot on him and and I shoot, and I watched my pellets from my shotgun fall about twenty yards short, and I and he just kind of like kind of jumps up and flops his feathers a little bit, like what the heck was that, and then just kind of walks off. Him and the other turkey just kind of walk off. They might even gobbled. I think when they shot. 00:21:03 Speaker 2: They did they had another one down below. 00:21:05 Speaker 1: A step too, and then they just kind of walked off, and I'm like, dang it. So after they got out of sight, I walk up there and I stepped it off and it's seventy five yards and I'm like, how did I How did I misjudge seventy five yards for fifty yards? 00:21:17 Speaker 2: Well, in all fairness on that one, it wasn't It wasn't a bright morning because there were some clouds in the sky and it was only like twenty minutes after fly down you on into shooting light. Yeah, and when you did shoot, I saw the flame come out of your gun. So it was not a bright you know, it wasn't really good light for judging, and It was really hard to tell on that one. 00:21:37 Speaker 1: And I'm used to judging elk yard bigger than judge. Yeah, and I'm like, you know, you're gonna try to look at this little bird compared to an elk, and you're like, I think that's close enough. 00:21:47 Speaker 2: No, when you shot, you thought it was a robbin out there. 00:21:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, shoot, but you know that is one mistake I made for sure. So fast fast forward. That was opening morning, yep. And we had all this hope and all this We felt pretty good about it, and then just our opportunity slipped us by, and then those turkeys they kept gobbling. But man, those things will cover country like they took off. They took off. They didn't ever run, but they were at Turkey just walking a normal pace. 00:22:18 Speaker 2: Once. 00:22:18 Speaker 1: If they're not feeding, they just kind of start walking. They will outdistance you, kind of like an help easily. 00:22:24 Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, we kind of followen over to they dropped into the next canyon and we could hear them over there at times, and they kind of disappeared. Here's something across the canyon, and then they shut up and it's like then the wind started picking up, which makes it just about impossible to hear across the canyons. So what we decided to bail out of there and head to another area. I knew that was more sheltered, and I have cameras set up there and I can I kind of watch what time they come through these areas, you know, just to have an idea of when to be around to call him. And went up to another area and set there, and what we called for our hour and twenty minutes. Yeah, you know, Dirk's setting under the tree, all cameled with a shot and up ready and wait, and Ron's leaning against a different tree, kind of gazing around. Pretty soon he gets cold, so he slips out in the sunshine and takes his pack out there and lays it down. He falls asleep, and I look over. Here's Dirk still diligent over there. 00:23:25 Speaker 1: So yep, yep, I says, I had the shotgun. Like I as much as I want to crawl out in the sun and warm up, I was freezing it out. There was cold wind, I was not dressed right. I had my lightweight warm weather turkey gear on and it was it was frigid. 00:23:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we, like I say, we called for an hour and twenty minutes and I said, you know, normally they if they're going to come in or hear us, they'll be here by now. So yeah, let's go. We'll go up another little draw and hit hit another hollow that's sheltered again. And what we get down there and walking along and turkles and were looking. It was really hard to see they were betting. All of a sudden, six of them stand up. Holy smokes, only saw one of them. Yeah, and they look at us and they decided, okay, let's go up the hill, slow feeding and they're all doing their duty. After they stand up, and we'll start walking off. And I says, well, Dirk, when I find deer, I always find turkeys. I said, Their turkeys and the deer like to hang out together here. Okay, we take about what five steps and Dirk goes turkeys and they were right in front of us. They would come into our calls. 00:24:35 Speaker 1: Right behind the deer. They were walking. They walked like within five yards. 00:24:38 Speaker 2: Of the deer. Yeah, like they were just. 00:24:40 Speaker 1: Hanging out like chumps. And what's funny is like I was telling him about hunting in Kansas around deer and turkeys, a lot of white tails and a lot of turkeys, and the turkeys will get over and get on the corner or whatever. And the deer they don't like it when the turkeys are there because I think they can make a lot of the noise. And I don't know, maybe they maybe the turkeys are mean to the deer. I don't know, but they it seemed to like each other too much. Yeah, and I kind of I'll make some noise and make clear to my throat or make some noise or wave my hand outside the blind or the tree and try to get those turkeys to see me and like spook off, so the deer will bill to come in, you know, on with no reservations, you know. And Ron was telling me, he's like, oh, that's weird because my deer and turkeys they love each other. I got pictures on my trail cams with these deer and turkeys hanging out together all the time. I'm like, well, that's weird. So we see deer take five steps. Oh well there's the turkeys. They're best friends. The turkey's coming. And Ron had just made some some yelps with his with his box call, and and these these jakes were like on a bee line to us and We're kind of standing right out in the middle of like on the sunshine, like we're we're frozen. We're not moving a bit, like we're not moving a muscle, and these turkeys are like coming right to us, got to like ten yards, and then they didn't. They weren't paying attention that you could see, like looking around. 00:26:00 Speaker 2: Hey, where's that hen? 00:26:01 Speaker 1: Where's that hen? 00:26:02 Speaker 3: Out? 00:26:02 Speaker 2: I heard? 00:26:03 Speaker 1: And they're looking around and they're all it's funny to watch jakes. They're all kind of grouped together and kind of you call them like a gang of thugs or a gang of teenagers, like you know, you know, they kind of act kind of geeky, you know, kind of nerdy, and and pretty soon they don't see the hen. They go back well, and then off in the distance about sixty yards, there's a couple of toms strutting, you know, they're fanning around back there. I'm like, oh, yeah, those things need to come. So the Jakes kind of go back over there, and then they kind of run around. Jakes will do this funny thing where they run around in circles. If you haven't been around it too much, but if you have, you know what I'm talking about. They run around circles chasing each other. It's it's kind of funny. It's like animated, you know. They're running around a circles, chasing each other into like a in a six foot circle. 00:26:46 Speaker 2: Then they stop them go the other way, and they stop. 00:26:47 Speaker 1: The go the other way, and then pretty soon one of the big toms had come over and chase them off, like, hey, get out of here with your nonsense, you know, kind of like an adult wood smack. The kids like, quit screwing around here, and Ron start squawking again with these with the box, and here they come again. There they come right back over to us that the Jakes and the Toms keep on strutting. They're not really making any ground. 00:27:10 Speaker 2: I think they're just I think they're back there strutting and staying okay, lady, here, I am. 00:27:13 Speaker 1: See come to me. 00:27:15 Speaker 2: They were probably spitting and drumming both and we just couldn't hear it. 00:27:18 Speaker 1: It was pretty windy, yeah, And then I would yelp with my with my diaphragm, and I think it was a little too low pitched or something. I think when I heard them yelping too, and it's more like a gobbler yelp, and they would they would cut loose and gobble that. The the jakes would gobble their heads off every now and then when I I'd yelp with my reed, my diaphragm, and but they didn't. It didn't really make them come. But when you hit that box that real high pitch, then they're like, oh, we better go back over there and check things out. And then finally they kind of they come over, looked around and see the hand went back, and then those toms started like kind of pushing them off and then started working their way to us a little bit. And there was kind of a fall there and some brush and stuff that we couldn't quite see him or have a shot. And then finally the one they the one tom got out and there was a gap. I was thinking, Man, if he puts his head in that that opening, you know is a pretty good, you know, two or three foot opening, and holds it still for a second, I might just shoot him. And and he did. Okay, I put my bead, I put a little high because I think I think that thing's about I think he's about fifty yards and I heard Ron say shoot Bayam, I shoot him, and down he goes flop, flop flop. Then what happened? 00:28:31 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So then Dirk runs up there to get him, and I'm sitting there just watching the whole scene unfold. The deer up to my left and all these jakes are standing there going what the heck is going on? And the other big Tom was looking back at his buddy, going what's happening here? What are you doing down there? And Dirk gets up there and his bird's flopping it off on the hill. It starts flopping down the hill and he steps on the wing to hold it still pulls out half the wing feathers and it's flopping on down on the hill, and find the sides. Well, I guess he's not coming with us anymore or less. Mosy up there. 00:29:06 Speaker 1: Had I have my wits about me. What I should have done is I should have just handed you the shotgun. But the big bird, the big Tom, he wasn't really exposed real good at that point. No, so like we could have played out. But as I didn't know fifty yards it's a poke, I was like, you know, did I just stun him? I gotta get over there and get there, get my my make sure he's just down. Yeah, I gotta put my foot on his neck and make sure he's down, because I don't want him to like get his wits about itim run off and then lose the darn thing. 00:29:31 Speaker 2: Shoot yeah, have him die somewhere you can't find him. 00:29:34 Speaker 1: Yeah, So then we giggle and we have a good time and and uh yeah, and those turkeys are so pretty, like you know, at face value, at a distance, you're like, oh, yeah, it's a big black bird. But up close, like the feathers fluoresce all these different colors, hues of green and blues and reds and. 00:29:52 Speaker 2: Oranges and oranges, and yeah, they's beautiful. 00:29:54 Speaker 1: They're so beautiful. So in the sun was out, so we sat there admired these beautiful feathers for a while and took pictures and did all that and giggled a little bit and talked about what happened, and and uh, you know. Then then the hard pack came out. We loaded all the you know, the big turkey. Turkeys are heavy, not like an elk. Though I'd rather pack a turkey out than definitely, But anyway, we packed the turkey out and then we had had a cold beer and some some lunch, and and uh, that was a that was a pretty good day. And then the next day it's Ron's turning. He's got a shotgun and we go out and just like elk cutting, you know, the day before we we had them gobbling, Yeah, we had them bugling. The next day we go up. We cannot buy a gobble on the roost. We're there well before light and we're check all the spots that Ron's got this play style. Well, if they're here, if they're not there, they're over here, if they're out there, over here, and then all these different places have a lot of turkeys. We checked all the spots. They would not gobble on the roost. Just like elk cutting. You have one fantastic day. The next day it's like, what is going on? I can't get a bold a bugle? 00:31:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, went down and called across the canon to see if those birds are gobbled at us at least nothing. Yeah, nothing, And we're going, what the Heck's okay, let's head up further up the road and get up there about a mile right before we had stopped and called from in the morning, what's that in the road, that's a turkey. We get up there and it was like, I don't even know five or six Hens and Jake at least they went right back up where they were the day before and would not talk at all. 00:31:32 Speaker 1: No gobbles. Yeah, yeah, there had to have been a mature Tom and or so we saw some I mean the day before. But still even that Jake, you'd think he he'd you know, bark a little bit, but he didn't say squat say. 00:31:43 Speaker 2: And that was before we before they crossed the road, even they were still on our side. And yeah, so then what we go up the road another we go check it out and see the man encounters are up there, going up the road another couple of miles and head into spot and driving down the road, there's there. Says oh, there's a hand and so we oh, yeah, yeah, there should be a Tom around here somewhere. So we get out and call ho and he somewhere off in the distance Tom gobbles. Okay, let's go. So we down park in the bottom and get up on the ridge top and head down the ridge. And that was the one that we talked about earlier that I tried sneaking in on. We wouldn't wouldn't leave. And then after they flew off there said, oh, I heard one gobble across the next canyon, so we decided to go there and check it out. And we went down there when that thing was and by the time we got up there, the wind was that howl and bitter cold, and our faces last night, like we were sunburned from the wind. We were both red faced, and our fingers were frozen. And that was with the gloves on everything. 00:32:48 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:32:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we said, okay, that's enough for today. 00:32:52 Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah. It's funny. The feelings at turkey hunting give you the motions, right, So one day you think I am the worst turkey hunter in the world, like you like turkeys will humble you. And I know other people are like, oh, turkeys are so stupid. You can shoot them so easy. And I've had days like that too. You're like, turkeys are the I'm like the best turkey hunter in the world. This is easy. Like I don't know why this is not hard, Like I could go out any day of the week and shoot a turkey, and then the next day you go out and you can't, you can't even come close to like I don't think I'll ever shoot a turkey. You get those same feelings you don't exist, yep, and elk will do that to you too, Like you'll be like, man, I am the master of the universe and calling in elk and the next day it's like, I must like the worst suckiest elk hunter on planet Earth. I cannot I can't get one to answer me. Yeah, I'll hike around. I can't even jump one, you know, I can't even find them, you know, But that's I guess that's the that's why they call it hunting, you know. It's yeah. Yeah, So back to we'll talk a little bit about elk cutting, because I know people like I don't know people like I'll hear about elk cutting, maybe more than Turkey's maybe not. It depends on who you are, where you live. People in the Midwest and and in the East, they really love turkey hanging, but they probably really love elk cutting too. So I think we will talk about some elk cutting too, about the good old days, you know, the love of the land that brought you and I together and that part of the that part of Idaho back in the day. If you guys listen to an earlier podcast that I did with George beat Us, Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm getting old. Sometimes I just go blank on people's names. That's it. Is that a precursor for for dementia? I don't know. I hope not, because sometimes I'm just like, gee, was what's my own name? But anyway, I'm sorry. So earlier on an earlier podcast, UH talk with George beat Us and he hunted the famed Clearwater region, North Idaho back in its heyday. You know, at that time in the elk world, I don't have the largest elk herd in the nation. Fast forward forty years, however long it has been. It's probably been forty fifth well yeah, over forty almost fit fifty years, and it's probably one, arguably one of the worst places to help hunt elk in the nation. And you and I sit around and talk about the good old days and the fun experiences we had in that country and then what it looks like now. But what was it like back when you went up there, back when you were a younger man, and the hills weren't quite as big and steep. 00:35:42 Speaker 2: That's for darms. 00:35:42 Speaker 1: Sure, Why did the mountains grow taller as we get older? 00:35:46 Speaker 2: Erosion? 00:35:47 Speaker 1: It's got to be erosion. 00:35:49 Speaker 2: No, we started, we started hunting in nineteen eighty nine, my good hunting buddy and my brother and I and it was like hunter to Oregon a lot. I mean that's where I hunt. It only was Oregon, Eastern Oregon. So I'm hunting a lodge poles and the thickets over there, and there's really no brush, not much brush anyway, and we could call bulls in over there, but they just there was enough. People kind of put me off. So I said, let's go try Idaho. So I did some research and picked this spot in Idaho, went there and I circled spots on my maps. I had a topple of maps in the day where I think, okay, there might be elk here and here and here. So we get there the first night, set up camp and head down the road a couple of miles and just I don't think it was one of the spots side the circle. Let's squat here and look. So we just park head out there, and we probably made it a quarter to a half a mile and said, this is ridiculous. We're beating ourselves through brush the whole way. Let's go back the road and go somewhere else. So we did and went up on this other point and before dark throughout some beagles and got an answer, Oh, okay, well come back here in the morning, and this is cool. Went down there in the morning and you know, chased him around to the vail and we kind of to think for nine days and we were in the elk every day, had a beegling every day and got some real good close encounters. And I don't remember how far into it, probably about day six we caught up with some and I shot one and he died right in a crik bottom. And that was our first day in there ever, and okay, let's took care of him, packed some stuff out that time, and went back down with three of us to pack him out. In Oregon. In eastern Oregon, the brush you know, the bottoms of the creeks aren't brushy at all. So we loaded him up and said, let's just head up a creek. You know, big mistake. We're fighting through tag alder, We're slipping on the rocks in the creek and it was a mess. But we finally packed him out and got done with our hunt that year and came home and on the way home said, ma'am, it was fun, but we're never going to Idaho a gain. I can't stand that brush, yeah, you know, and the tag alder thickets. You know, you'd hear the bowl there and you just go plowing right through the middle of it, and or the I don't remember what the other one is down in there, the vine maples and stuff. And little did you realize that we're trails through there, you know, the Olkus trail. They just don't go plowing through like we did. We're dumb boys. Took us a while to learn. And so we're set on our way home. Now, we're not going back there. That was just too much work and too brushy, you know, so forget it. Two or three months later, well, what are we going to do next year? Are we going to hunt? I said, you know, we had a lot of bulls bugling in Idaho and had a lot of clothes. Let's go back there. So we went back for two weeks, and that year we learned that there's trails that go through all this brush, and we learned a lot more area that year. And you know, we hunted that from eighty nine through two thousand and three and just had a ball over there. He got to know the area well, and we had multiple balls in all the time and got a lot of bulls taken home with us and it was fun. It was just a blast. And during some of those studies, I'm sure that I'm on this hill side and you're on that hill side, and I'm beagling to you, and you're beagling to me, and we're going, there's hunters there, what the heck? 00:39:22 Speaker 1: Guy over there? 00:39:23 Speaker 2: Over there going, what the heck's that guy over there for? Yeah? 00:39:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we probably crossed paths in the mountains, but not close enough to know to meet each other. 00:39:31 Speaker 2: Right, And we'd go by where you were camped and we oh, we'd wave with the camp on the way by you. 00:39:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Things things were different back then, Definitely they were a lot more elk Ron does it did a thing that's really cool. It's not you. I mean, there's other people that do it. And I know, as far as regrets in my hunting life, I wish I would have done this because I love interesting data in facts. But Rawn has kept a journal log of encounters and call ins and how many elk they heard seen moon phases from nineteen eighty nine till last. 00:40:24 Speaker 2: Till last year. Last through this year. I just don't have the last I don't have the last five years on my data sheet. You have an updated to data sheet right the year or the total data sheet you're printed up one. Yeah, but yeah, So what kind of a trend have you seen from nineteen eighty nine to modern times? So from nineteen eighty nine through nineteen ninety four we were seeing on the average of twenty bulls a year and had twenty five close encounters a year, And to me, a close encounter is when the was within sixty yards, I can see them and there's a good shot possibility. So for those, however, many years we had that kind of stats, and then ninety five it went down. In ninety six we had the hard winters there in ninety five ninety six, So yeah, in ninety six and ninety seven it dropped down to eight per year on bulls seen and twelve p R on close encounters, and then it started trending back up through about two thousand and three, went back up to fourteen bulls a year and six encounters or fifteen encounters a year, and then the wolves showed up and they were they were starting to get there. In two thousand and three even. Yeah, and one night we're in bed sleep and you hear them coming down the road howling, And you know, get up the next day and there's all these huge wolf tracks out in the road. Yeah, oh my gosh. Well after that happened for the next what do I have? Two thousand and three was the last year we hunted that particular area. We saw six bowls and had six close encounters. Said, okay, that's it, We're moving somewhere else in the unit. 00:42:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've moved from You've went from twenty to twenty five a year down to six six. 00:42:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's discouraging when you stark difference. Yeah, and the the vegetation hadn't changed that much. The feed, you know, the habitat hadn't changed. I mean it changed a little bit, but not enough to do that to the numbers. And yeah, the only common no nominator was wolves. 00:42:29 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. 00:42:30 Speaker 2: And so we moved over east further in the unit. We were seeing fourteen bowls a year and fifteen close encounters for the next four years, and then it went down to six bowls and six close encounters again. We said, and there were wolf tracks all over the roads and they're howling at night again. Yeah, okay, you know, let's get out of here. So we went to another area and we were seeing up there. You know, it was our first few years up there. We were seeing nine bowls a year, nine close and counters, and so we said, okay, forget that one, let's go somewhere else. And we got another one that we were seeing ten and eight a year close encounters. Which the difference there is that it was thicker. It was actually thicker than where we had been hunting. Yeah, and to see a ball and get a close encounter was a lot harder. We've got a lot of bugles going up there. We got a number of bugles going up there. 00:43:30 Speaker 1: We heard a lot of different bulls. But then the close encounters and then visual eyes on bulls went way down because it's just such thick. 00:43:36 Speaker 2: It's only twenty yards, you know, we were shooting twenty yards up there as all maximum. So yeah, it definitely changed well, And and we kind of migrated down to this souther area and I ran into somebody down there named Dirk. 00:43:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, it's funny because I think the year that I seen you up there in the woods. Finally we crossed paths. It we'd been hunting some of the same areas for the last thirty years and never run across each other in the woods that we knew of. We we might even passed each other by a way. We've never talked, you know, but at the Sportsman Shore in Portland and what was it to uh, let's see twenty eighteen. 00:44:13 Speaker 2: Maybe probably something like that. 00:44:15 Speaker 1: Then you introduced yourself. What kind of talked about? We sit there and talk like school girls and stuff, and we we knew the places we used to hunt, but now we kind of we didn't really talk a lot about where we hunt currently, Like we kind of left little tidbits like I kind of hind around where you hunt. But we didn't really say names or anything. 00:44:33 Speaker 2: You don't never say names to somebody else, No, you don't. 00:44:36 Speaker 1: That's we laugh about. Hey, Hey, you guys see anything hunting? No? No, no, I haven't seen a thing. Okay, this man, I haven't heard it out of course. You know. It's the elk hunters, you know, talking to each one camp to another. You know, you never share or divulge your information because you know you don't want the other guys sneaking in there. On your spot that they see your puck up and they're going to be looking for a for a for that bowl you've been bugling. So anyhow, fast forward, So that was twenty eighteen, the winter of twenty eighteen, we talked yeah, and then and Mett finally face to face. And then that fall during mouth tab Madness that if you guys haven't watched my YouTube channel, it's called The Bugler and I do a series of videos called mouth tab Madness. I'd injured my shoulder that fall elk hunting, and I had to relearn how to shoot a bow with using a mouth tab. Had to bite on this little the tab attached to the string with my teeth and then push the bow forward with my left arm, line up my eyeball to my peep side, and then shoot. And that's how I went hunting that fall. The rest of that fall was with this mouth tab bow. Anyway, we're up there, Me and cameraman Dusty had just hiked up, had a wet day of bugle fest. We'd been chasing these bugles around and we got just got back to the pickup and I heard a vehicle coming. I'm like quick, Dusty, hide because I don't like talk to people in the woods. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I just I don't want to answer asking me questions. I don't want to I don't want to have to lie to him. They're like, oh, I haven't heard a thing, you know. I'd just rather not talk to I don't want to pump people from information, and I don't want them to pump me for information. So I'm like, come here, Dsky, hide behind the pickup. So we kind of hid behind the pickup and this guy pulls up and I hear and he just stops. I'm like, oh, dang it. And then his I can hear his window go. He's like, come on, come on out, guys. I see you hiding back there. I hear this voice. I'm like, oh, dang it, we're hit. We're had. And I walk around and then to my dismay, it's Ron and and he I could see the same, the same surprise in his ice. He's like, oh, Dirk, this is where you hunt, Like dang it. So we had a good, good, good visit there. We probably talked way too long middle of the road there and instead of going hunting, but it was good to reconnect, and you told us where you were camped, and we end up coming out to your camp later on. But uh, anyhow that that that's when we finally ran into each other the woods in the woods and and I. 00:47:00 Speaker 2: Well, we'd actually seen each other just a little bit before that because we were looking. We were road beagling one night and we're standing beside the road beagling down This drawn ron had nature calls, so he's standing there and here comes a rig around the corner a little and they're coming by and they're just laughing. And I'm laughing because I know what I'm doing. They're laughing because they know what I'm doing. Well, we talked to Dirk later and he said, yeah, I was laughing because we were buggling to each other ago. I was laughing for a different reason. 00:47:30 Speaker 1: Dirk got caught with your pants down. Yeah. 00:47:33 Speaker 2: And then then when we ran into him, if they were done hunting, we'd we'd heard the bulls beagling up there that morning, but we had in mind we wanted to go somewhere else in hunt, so we did and the artist made there was nothing there, So we said, let's go back and go to that area where the bulls were this morning. So we went to the backside of it and there's a rig park there. It's like, oh my gosh, let's go to the other side and climb the steep face. And that's when we found Durkle there had been up there chasing my bulls that morning. 00:48:02 Speaker 1: Well that's awesome, and it's funny. Like my experience is like I wish I'd wrote them all down that way, I'd have that hard data. I just have to go on memory. But I remember, you know, the same kind of trends, you know, you know, you would hear lots of bugles, lots of every year, different bulls, and you'd have you know, you would get eyes on bulls, and then he can't close encounters and a lot of people will throw around, oh yeah, I called in forty seven bowls last year, but did you really call in forty seven bulls. In my mind, calling in a bull is having a bull either come in to within archery range or very close to it, so he's traveled a long ways from where he was at originally and he came to your calls and you almost get him. Or let's say a bull comes from half a mile away, and stands on a hillside one hundred or two hundred yards away and looks back and paces back and forth and bugles at you. But then you don't. He don't come any further because he's like he wants to see elk or he wants you to make a move, but then he kind of goes back. That's a call in too. But I know people that will will hunt some of the same areas I hunt, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, we called in forty nine bowls last year. I'm like, but did you. I mean, I don't think you're counting. I don't think you're calling counting call ins like me. I think maybe maybe the amount of bugles. 00:49:16 Speaker 2: You heard they got forty. 00:49:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what g is. I guess if that's what makes you float your boat and keeps you going going every day, I mean, you know, bless your heart. I mean, I guess you can count them however you want, right, yeah, Well, same as turkeys, right, oh he called in these, except they when they got off the roost, they went the other way and the half we're hs. But that you know that we're where we met you, We ran into you. If you if the first year I hunted that spot there was in two thousand and seven, and that year my buddy Brent and I we'd heard thirty five different bulls bugle in a week, and I was like, wow, this is great because my old spot I used to go had been really good. And then on way downhill, just like what you said, you know, you know, I think the last year I hunted there, I think I had two close encounters and I heard like three balls the whole time. Yeah, and it just hurt them and I got on on almost all of them. I got on all of them, but you know, I guess out of the three balls I got on, two of them had close encounter. But anyhow, fast forward, you know to two thousand and seven, you know, thirty five balls we heard in a week and had lots of close and client counters. I didn't really count those if I'd have to kind of go back to the old memory banks and write them down and kind of figure it out, but lots of close encounters, very you know, tension on the string drawn back a few times and almost got them to when we met you in twenty nineteen, we had I don't know, we probably heard like maybe ten bules that year and had three or four close encounters in nineteen. In twenty nineteen, Yeah, and he's gonna he's gonna look at his bible. Here, his LK Cunting Bible. 00:50:56 Speaker 2: Twenty nineteen, we heard a total of thirty three bules and saw five bulls. Well, I have four clothes encounters. 00:51:04 Speaker 1: You, you Sandbagger. You when I talked to you in the woods, you said, oh, yeah, we've heard a couple of bulls here and there. But well, you weren't being truthful. 00:51:15 Speaker 2: Well you probably weren't either. 00:51:17 Speaker 3: I was. 00:51:17 Speaker 1: I wasn't at all. Yeah, you guys said, oh, did you get into them up there? I'm like, oh, we heard a couple of bugles up there out of the brush, and we weren't real truthful either. 00:51:28 Speaker 2: Yeah, a little geno. I sit down there and listen to them all morning before we left. Yeah. 00:51:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, but. 00:51:36 Speaker 2: It was a good year. 00:51:37 Speaker 1: But but just the start contrast, you know. And then fast forward to like twenty twenty two, that that was the last time I hunted up in that country. That was the ghost Bul video you guys watched if you haven't watched it on YouTube, the ghost Bul. 00:51:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was Nor was a good one. 00:51:55 Speaker 1: Ghost Bowls of the North or something like that. 00:51:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, Ghost Bulls of the North. 00:51:58 Speaker 1: That was the video on YouTube, the Phelips Game Calls YouTube channel. And I think I heard five bulls that year and had three close encounters as in I was, you know, I was in within shooting range of bulls. So even it had even gone downhill from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two, in my mind, a lot less sign and you know a lot of hunter activity, but you know, I'm kind of going to some places you don't see a lot of people. But still it's just it's just that the elk numbers are not there right there used to be a lot more than there. And in my mind just from I feel like, I feel like I'm about as educated as any biologist, probably more so than any biologists are out there and now there. Most biologists they read things, they look at spreadsheets, they look at that kind of data. Ron and I are out there surveying the landscape, the countryside, firsthand experience covering the country. We're digging in, I would dare say way more than anybody that's like doing any kind of biology assessment of an area. You know, we're boots on the ground. We're walking in places people don't normally walk unless you have like an elk calling to you. Like, you're not going to walk down to these crap holes if there's not a bull bugle and like they're just you're not gonna walk down there to to write something on a sheet of paper just to see what's down there. You're just not going to do it. So anyway, I feel like we have a pretty good gauge on what has happened to Idaho's elk nor North idahos elk. Certain parts of Idaho elk are flourishing. Other parts of Idaho they're diminishing. 00:53:40 Speaker 2: But where they're flourishing, do they have many wolves? 00:53:42 Speaker 1: Not as many, no, or any, you know, not as many or any, but wolves are starting to find some of those places. Now. I have friends and you know, in this southern part of the state. You know, if you cut the skinny part of Idaho off and make a box out of the southern part of the state, you know, make a rectangular box the areas in that those places, you know, I feel like they have better elk herds. I probably shouldn't say that, but I know on the fringes of the northern part of the Box. I know people are starting to say, you know, man, we're starting to see more wolves and starting to see more wolves. And they'd seen wolves before and they kind of came and went, But now they're back and they they're they're finding dead heads, lots of deadhead elk. They're starting to make an impact in a lot of areas, especially with the kind of winters we've been having. Last year, this winter wasn't too bad, but the winter of twenty twenty two twenty twenty three was devastating to South Idaho. And I don't know if that's you know, what got those wolves. You know, they just followed the herds down into the lower country as the time went by. But anyhow, some might say, like if we go back to northern Idaho, some will say, you know, it's all about habitat, you know, the habitat loss, because in too in nineteen ten, there was a giant wildfire that went from north central Idaho clear way up into the Panhandle and burned millions of acres of the national forest, which after thirty years forty years, when it grew back, it was amazing. Elk cabitat you know, the burnt had opened up the canopy, you know, grasses and small shrubs growing everywhere, and it was a perfect storm because you know, back in them days, not a lot of people in Idaho. And then around World War two, they'd even pre World War two, they'd even shut down hunting seasons in a lot of those units because they'd had some bad winners and they wanted the elk to come back and flourish, and they did, and they opened up seasons again. Anyhow, the elk hunting was fantastic, and George beat Us got to hunt onto the tail end of some of that there in the seventies and early eighties of that fantastic yel hunting and if you listen to that podcast, his stories were incredible. But to understand and in the forties and fifties it was twice as good it was, if you can even wrap your head around how good that was, it was twice as good. It had the nation's best elk elk heard in this relatively small area compared to like the whole state of Colorado now that has the largest delkurd in America. So but anyway, now you know, now we're in twenty twenty four. Those forests have grown up, they've aged, they've matured, they've choked out, you know, grasses they've choked out. You know, the underbrush has matured and gotten really tall, so you don't have all the tender things to eat at more of a more just little above ground level. So the feet has changed. So people will say the experts will say, well, it's more of a habitat issue than a wolf issue, and I think both sides are right to a certain degree. So, well, if you have elk that should have really great feed, If they have really great feed everywhere and they're pressured by wolves, they just keep moving until you know, okay, it's okay, we'll just go live over here. There's good food here. And they just keep following the food and the wolves follow them. They're probably gonna stay more nourished and probably have less mortality. But as it is now, you know, we have a lot of mature forests and stuff. There's less quality habitat. The wolves pursue, they distress elk. They're not as in good as shape because they don't have a good as feed, and then they're easy. They're easier prey because there may be find some good food, if a good food source, and don't want to leave it, and then the wolves go in and wipe them out. And this is all just my theory. 00:57:42 Speaker 2: What do you think? Yeah, I mean I agree with someone that that has grown up into old forest, old growth. But then you start out where you go back to where you and I first turn it over there, Yeah, and that is all burnt, that's all. There's been fires go through all that country, and so it's reforesting. It's got the open grasses, it's got the habitat for them. And you were back there last year rifle hunting and you found zero in there. Yeah, so you know, there used to be tons of elk in there, and now there is good food. If it was habitat, there's great food for him in there. But they're still in the elk. 00:58:18 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for the about a decade ago that country started burning again. Between burning and then there's a lot of beetlekill timber that's falling, you know, and opening up the canopy as well, but you're still not seeing elk. And then you know what George talked about. You know, a good friend of his who was a biologist for the fishing the forest service in that area. A forestry guy. He said, you know, they need to prescribe burns in the winter habitat, you know, to get those you know, you know, those those burns we're talking about, a lot of them are up on top top. They're not in the they're not in the winter range. But conversely, you know, at the time, I wanted to hear George's opinion, and I didn't want to, you know, take counterpoint on it. But I got to thinking and thinking about, like, well, okay, that that does make sense. That's a fair, fair assumption. But then I look at the frank Church Wilderness. All all you got to do is go to Google Earth and look at the frank Church Wilderness. It's all burnt from the river to the highest peaks, most of it. It's it's a huge vast wasteland of burn, wasteland as far as like timber. But now there's grasses, small trees, you know, like jackfurs and brush, lush brush growing. Where are the elk? They haven't made a return there. There's nobody's saying good lord. You know, the outfitters aren't getting rich in the frank Church Wilderness because there's so many elk, and they have so many clients coming in. There's a lot of outfitters that have gone out of business. 00:59:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, and. 00:59:51 Speaker 1: I haven't talked to too many people lately that said, oh, the Frank Church is on fire with elk right now. He actually asks people and they're like, yeah, there's elk, but a few between. They kind of tell the same kind of stories we tell about the places we've been hunting. You know, if you know the pockets where they live, you'll get into them. But if you don't, you're gonna you could spend a whole week there or a ten day hunt and not see a dang elk or here. 01:00:12 Speaker 2: I know, if if you walk forever through the brush piles and just beat yourself togeath. 01:00:18 Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, I I don't know what the easy answer is because they have, you know, with trapping and stuff, and then I know the idole fishing game of flown missions with their their helicopters, and you know, to reduce numbers of wolves, you know, they shoot a bunch and to help certain areas where the elk are suffering or maybe cattle, and then the trappers are getting a fair share of them. And I think I think they're just kind of keeping them at bay. They've reduced some of the numbers, but they've kind of keep them at bay. And I don't know. Something has to happen drastically to get those elk to come back in those places. 01:00:55 Speaker 2: So that takes you to the next thing is where the elk drop their cows. Yes, guess what's down there? Bears bears. So has the bear population increased enough to where they're hurting the herds by killing enough cows? I don't know. 01:01:10 Speaker 1: I think they put it in on them, definitely. I think there's a lot of bears. I don't think it's like the bound bears we had in the eighties. But we don't have the amount of elk because we had in the eighties. 01:01:18 Speaker 2: But there's more cougars now too than there were ye So you know, everything's trying to like a turkey. We were talking, Yeah, a turkey doesn't have a friend one in the woods except for a deer. Everything else wants to eat it. 01:01:31 Speaker 1: It's on everyone's menu, I mean. 01:01:34 Speaker 2: Says oh young bobcat, Oh yeah, cougar, yeah, but an elk because you know, there's a lot of things trying to eat the elk too. Between the bear, the cougar and the wolves, you know, they're yeah, now, prime fair. 01:01:50 Speaker 1: Now. Am I calling for the eradication of wolves or bears or cougars. No, no, But it has to be a good balance, right, It's got to be a balance. And and being I'm an animal lover, I love all animals and I want to see them all do well, but not at the expense of the other one. You know, I don't want all the elk to be gone, and I don't want all the wolves to be gone, and all the cougars in the mountain lions are the bears, and I don't want to see something disappear completely off the landscape at all, but we have to manage them. 01:02:20 Speaker 2: It is cool to hear a wolf howl. That is just a neat. I mean, it's an air you sound, but it's cool to hear. 01:02:26 Speaker 1: And I love dogs. I am. People may not know this about me, but I love dogs. I have a black Lab, I've had black labs. I've had dogs my whole entire adult life. And I love dogs. And I feel like wolves are interesting. Dogs are intelligent, Dogs are way smarter than people will usually give them credit for. And especially they're very in touch with their emotions. I think dogs are more self aware than a lot of people will acknowledge or understand. So you think wolves are very self aware, very intelligent. They've they've they learned very quickly about danger, about food, they learn very quickly about everything. And so I can appreciate that. That's an inter it's very They're an interesting animal. They have an interesting family dynamic. They have just a different kind of way of life, you know, which is interesting, which should should be appreciated. But also I can appreciate when they're overpopulated, then other animal species suffer, and I don't appreciate that, right. I don't want that to happen. 01:03:33 Speaker 2: I want there to be a balance, to go from fifteen thousand elk curd down to fifteen hundred elk curd. 01:03:39 Speaker 1: Something's wrong, something's wrong, and it hoped it happened within a two three year period. 01:03:43 Speaker 2: Is this boom? 01:03:45 Speaker 1: Is what happened? And the habitat didn't just fail as there's less elk on the landscape. Think of this, you know, you say a habitat as there's less elk on the landscape, there's more food on the landscape because there's it's not like all the the grass and brush died in North Ido. If anything, there's it's brushier than it's ever been everywhere he looks. 01:04:06 Speaker 2: Food, Yeah, it is. It's it's a it's a jungle. That's the best way to describe it. 01:04:12 Speaker 1: Like an elk doesn't have to walk far for food, Like they can like walk three feet. Oh there's something else to eat. Yeah, theysh they walk fifty yards. Oh there's water. They have, they have, they have everything they need except I think they the the wolves have done quite a number on them, and I think they do definitely need to restore a lot of the the winter habitat by doing prescribed burns. But as my friend George said, you know, there's that's a politically charged thing. You know, we start burning, you know, there's a lot of folks who suffer from asthma and stuff, and it makes it hard for them to breathe. Well, they get they get pushed back, the four Service gets pushed back on on air quality. Yeah, and you know it's hard to make everyone happy, you know, unfortunately. 01:04:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, But but you have to look at the money that hunters put into the economy. Yep, And I think as hunters, you know, buying license and tags and all this stuff. You've promoted the game and built up the herds to where they were, you know, so that was and then to be managed responsibly at that level, you know, keep the herds up. And then something else comes into the equation, doesn't that wasn't there before and changes all everything. So you have to stop and re examine how you're doing things. And I don't know, I I don't have the answers. I wish it did. 01:05:34 Speaker 1: Well, here's I mean, here's a here's a here's a topic. We could spin off of this and go down another rabbit hole. Logging. You know, they've they've ceased logging for the most part. On buying large on national forest. Yes, okay, we can't burn that. We can't burn these these winter grounds. Can we log them? 01:05:54 Speaker 3: No? 01:05:55 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying put in new roads into these places, but people can help licopter log right, That's that's a very effective tool. You're not you're not you're not scarring the landscape with roads. You you make the roads that are existing roads. Better cut the timber, fly it to the fly it to the nearest road. Landing and truck it out. You know that now now again, we're stimulating the economy, We're creating dollars, we're getting people putting back to where work. We're getting tax money that will help maintain the forest. Yet the same people who don't want you to log, they don't want you to burn, well, some of them, but it seems like, you know, we don't want you to to log the forest. But and but what happens in the end is well, wildfire and it isn't burning anyway. 01:06:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's worse because nothing is restored yet. Yeah. 01:06:47 Speaker 1: And it's the middle of summer, it's July and August, and now air quality all over the northern northwestern part of the United States, the sky's are brown for the whole month of August. 01:06:57 Speaker 2: You're spending money to fight the fighters instead of making money by log in it, Yes, which just doesn't compute for me. Yeah. 01:07:04 Speaker 1: In areas where there's a lot of different ownerships of land, you know, you have state, you have private timber companies, you have National forest in those areas, you definitely see a difference in ELK numbers just because they've opened up the forest in those places. So I do believe habitat does have something to do with it, Yes, because even with the presence of predators, the elk do better. 01:07:27 Speaker 2: And the fires don't do as well because they hit these blocks that have been logged and they can distinguish them, you. 01:07:32 Speaker 1: Know, extinguish. We don't have those multimillion acre burns like we had in nineteen ten. So anyway, I wish we could just you know, I think we've just solved the world's problems here, Ron. 01:07:48 Speaker 2: I'm too old for that. 01:07:51 Speaker 1: Man. It's been really fun. As always, I appreciate you hosting me and bringing me over here. I cherish the time we get to spend together and go over and it's fun. We talk about life and giggle and laugh and and you cook good food for me. You love to cook and I love to eat. I mean, anybody that's seen you know that's a great that's a great duo. 01:08:13 Speaker 2: We gave first razor clams the other night, the. 01:08:16 Speaker 1: First razor clams. I've never had those before. Jason Phelps thanks a lot for no invite. He lives very close to the coast. And yeah I did, Yeah, yeah, I had to had to come to my good friend Ron's house to get razor clams. I hope you're listening, Jason. You know, if if you guys have questions or comments, you can always email them into CETD at Phelps Game Calls dot com. Yeah in the distance, Yeah CTD at Phelps Game Calls. Got to com and send send an email to Jason Phelips and say, hey, why didn't you have Dirk over for razor clams? I thought you guys were friends. I'm starting to question our friendship. 01:08:55 Speaker 2: Make sure you use clams and not mud clams. 01:08:58 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well yeah, he'll probably eat the ray the clams and I'm not there. He's like, oh, we got to some of these others. We call them m clams for mud. But anyway, anything to wrap this up, any last thoughts. Do you have any regrets or looking back at your your long hunting life, Like, man, I wish I'd done something that you just didn't do, and looking back, you wish you could have done something different. 01:09:20 Speaker 2: So, so when I was learning the hunting starting out in Oregon and I got I don't even know where, I heard about bugling. I was excited. I thought I want to call it. I want to hear bugle. So I don't even know, I don't know if it was herders or what. Back in the day, I heard some turkey diaphragm calls you can make yourself, and I made my own diaphragms and I used them for bugling. Or I was younger and my voice worked better and I could do a throat bugle with my own voice. 01:09:48 Speaker 1: Did you suck in? Or did you scream? 01:09:51 Speaker 3: So? 01:09:51 Speaker 1: Can I try to do that? I sell like a credit might sell like a stuck pig or something. It's so terrible. 01:09:57 Speaker 2: Yeah. I called nice point in one day and here came a hunter down up win from him, and gone. 01:10:03 Speaker 1: Got them both. He's got you fool them both. 01:10:05 Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was like, oh my gosh, you must have been pretty good. But I made my own diaphrams and tried those, and then they had, you know, so I don't remember what called. Larry Jones came out with them. I got the squealer thing and got my first bull to really answer and come in later on, and he was ripping up a tree and I thought, I'm sitting here waiting for him to come walking out in front of me, and he left, you know, so it's like, oh, well, that's not how it goes. And then I taught myself. I had to. I learned it myself just by doing it. And like we were talking back in the day, there were enough elk and Idaho, if we blew this one, let's go to the next one mile away. Yeah, you don't do it again. And that was how we learned. It was just trial and error. And it ends up that you and I pop a lot alike. 01:10:48 Speaker 3: Now. 01:10:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like we're sitting here talking like yeah, yeah, yeah. Aggressive aggressive aggressive means this, not this. And if the bull gets aggressive sounding, we get aggressive sounding. But if he's not, we're aggressive pushing them, getting closer and making them mad. So yeah, yeah, I mean I the only regrets I have yeah, okay, not a whole lot, just a few. 01:11:17 Speaker 1: You know. 01:11:17 Speaker 2: I wish I had more patience at times. That is one of the key things for somebody learning patients. Just because he hasn't showed up within two minutes doesn't mean he's not gonna be within ten minutes. Just like turkey hunting, Yep, if a turkey doesn't show up and he's quiet, he might be coming in quiet. It's the same thing with an elk. 01:11:37 Speaker 1: Ye. 01:11:37 Speaker 2: So I've learned a lot of patience. Especially now that I'm older, I don't like to move as much and it hurts to go, and so I learned to stop a lot. Yeah. 01:11:47 Speaker 1: Well, I think Kenny Rogers said it best. You got to know when to hold him and know when to fold them exactly. 01:11:55 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, that's about it. I just thoroughly enjoyed my time in the woods and learning about like you know, I was telling you stories the other day what I've seen with hell kin of the cow falling in the bog ahead over heels, Yeah, calf getting beat on by a cow, and you know, it's just there's so many things just see watching nelk get spooked, you know, spike grouse flop at its feet and the spike just did some results trying to get out of there. So you see so many cool things when you were out in the woods getting to watch that stuff, and that's what I enjoy. 01:12:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so Yeah. All the times I've been by myself hunting and I didn't have anybody with me, and I've seen some amazing things, like nobody's gonna ever believe this story, and it's long before you videotaped anything, and it's by myself and it's like, man, that was so cool. And it's one regret. I've hunted it by myself a lot in my life and I enjoy it, I love it, I prefer it, but when something remarkable happens, I regret that I didn't have someone there with me to share that moment with, Like. 01:12:58 Speaker 2: Can you believe that just happened? 01:13:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. 01:13:02 Speaker 2: No, so my Yeah. Another regret is that we didn't run into each other back in the nineteen nineties and then start hunting together with our group. You know, it would have been it would have been. 01:13:14 Speaker 1: I would have seen your license plate thought I'd been like them damn or Guardian hunters. But out of standers get out of it. 01:13:19 Speaker 3: I know. 01:13:20 Speaker 1: No, I'm just kidding, but I wish we'd have found each other back then and could have chased them same the same mountains that we love so much together. It would have been such so much fun. 01:13:31 Speaker 2: Would have been. And now you're not hunting where I'm hunting anymore. 01:13:34 Speaker 1: Yeap. 01:13:35 Speaker 2: So we'll have to give you a report card this year. 01:13:37 Speaker 1: Wrappers over, yeah, yeap, And we'll just have to you know, we have turkey hunting Ron, that's right, We'll always have turkey. 01:13:45 Speaker 2: Yep, that's for Darner. 01:13:47 Speaker 1: Sure, well, thanks again. How can people find you? You wanted to have let people know where they can find you on social if they want to follow you. 01:13:55 Speaker 2: I don't have any idea, Okay you do, I don't, Yeah, I don't. I don't know. If it's just Ron Hewett on Facebook and something wrong hew it on Instagram, I don't know. I don't post much on their normally his family stuff, family stuff. And I probably posted a picture of you the other day because I had eleven year memory or something on April fifteenth with me with a bird and it said ad So I put your picture on there, it shows up. I don't. I don't even know how to find. 01:14:22 Speaker 1: That, so right on, Well again, I thank you for having me over, Thanks for thanks for getting on the podcast. 01:14:29 Speaker 2: You know, I know that was the first I said I was never going. 01:14:32 Speaker 1: To do this. I know you told me I'll never get on a podcast, and I'm like, Ron, you gotta do it. 01:14:37 Speaker 2: Like I'm sweating and trembling and shaking. 01:14:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's you know. One of my regret life regrets is not no knowing or my before when my dad passed away. Before he passed in two thousand and nine, and back then, I hadn't even heard of a podcast. I don't even know what a podcast was, and there was, it wasn't mainstream media by no means, and I regret that I hadn't recorded. My mom always wanted my dad because my dad, Yeah, he's a very colorful person, crazy stories like he lived a hell of a life from you know, storm on the beaches of Ewajima to living and working in Liberia, Africa back in the sixties, and you know, all the hunted the Idaho's backcountry when it was the very best right out of World War Two in the forties and fifties, and and just he'd experienced such a wide range of experiences in life. My mom always tried to get him to like record something like a little tape recorder, and he I think he kin'd felt worried about it, and he's likesh, I'm not doing that, you know. But if we'd have been able to sneak or or something or sit down, and I wish I could have had an opportunity to podcast and record all these wild stories he had and life experiences. 01:15:48 Speaker 2: I do regret that. 01:15:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, it was awesome. And but and that's why I really wanted you to get on here, because I wanted to I want to pick your brain and record you and here and hear your your You're spent on life and and and elk cunning. 01:16:03 Speaker 2: So I appreciate life is enjoy all it's here. We never know about tomorrow. It's all in God's hands. So absolutely, that's that's the Just enjoy every day, make the most of it, make make the friends and enjoy your friendships. 01:16:18 Speaker 1: So I love that. Yeah, all right. And family, family and family. Yeah, absolutely definitely family, family first. Yeah, well, thanks Ron, and we'll catch everybody on the next one. 01:16:32 Speaker 3: H h h h h m hmmm