00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand saddler blind, First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. 00:00:18 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this week on the show, Tony and I are beginning an exploration of the equally fantastic and fraught journey of raising future hunters and anglers. All right, welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light, and today we are kicking off a new topic of conversation, a several episodes series diving into the fraught fascinating, exciting, disturbing, distressing, wonderful, joyful waters of parenting. Tony, can I get the amen on all that? 00:01:11 Speaker 3: You sure can? Buddy, and you use fraut? How often does that happen on a hunting podcast? 00:01:16 Speaker 2: You know we're trying to break down barriers. 00:01:20 Speaker 3: I love it, man. 00:01:22 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so we're gonna talk about raising outdoor kids, Tony, and I was hoping you could help me today kind of kick this off. I've got a few different episodes planned with some very interesting different people who come to this with different perspectives. We've got like experts, we've got philosophers, we've got authors, We've got regular old dads who've been there and been in the trenches. And I want to kind of talk about all different things related to you know, introducing your kids to the outdoors, hunting with them, fishing with them, building and interest in the outdoors, teaching them about life and death and conservation, and you know, having fun outside and getting uncomfortable and having fun doing all that, and just telling some stories too, because I think, you know, when I think Tony about folks who listen to this podcast, there's a few things that unite us. Most of us. Most of us are pretty serious deer hunters, most of us really love the outdoors. And not all of us, but eventually many of us, probably most will have kids that you want to get out there with you enjoying these things too. So this is one of those topics that I think is super applicable to a huge proportion of this group of people, but we don't talk about it a whole lot. Do you feel like that is a I mean, when I think about that, it's kind of a mismatch between what's important and what we talk about. Because I think you would agree, Tony. Once you have kids, your priorities with hunting and what you're doing and how you're spending your time, that changes in big way, doesn't it? 00:03:10 Speaker 3: Oh Man so much? And you know it's we're kind of a product of our life situation, you know. I mean, if you get somebody who's twenty three and ate up with bow hunting and no kids and you know, maybe a little light on life's responsibilities, you know, it might be all big bucks. And then things change. You have some little babies at home, and then all of a sudden, you know, your time is totally different and you become a weekend warrior. And you know, as those kids grow up, and like you're talking about, you want to get them out there. It's like everything that you would want for yourself out of it sort of takes a back seat. How can I get them out there and have a great time. And it's you know, there's like a little bit of a transitional you know, process to it, but man, it's so much fun and it just kind of reframes the value of the outdoors and these you know, how lucky we are to get to do the things we do. When you get to introduce your kids to it, it's so fun. 00:04:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. It's it's one of the surprises to me when I, you know, I had all these thoughts and preconceived notions before having kids about what would be good, what would be bad, what wouldn't be tough. But one of the surprises was how it brought new joy to hunting and fishing. For me, I thought it was gonna make hunting and fishing harder and like I wouldn't be all enjoyed as much. And on the flip side, it has actually like shined new light on fun things and stuff that I took for granted or ignored all of a sudden, Like it's those little things that you get to relive through their eyes that makes it so cool. You know. 00:04:48 Speaker 3: Did you find that first with fishing with the boys, you know? Or not? 00:04:53 Speaker 2: I the kid the boys had, Fishing was the place where they got to be like personally in evolved the quickest, but like hunting adjacent stuff still like they got like even just like whenever was I guess he would have been like ten months old or something, and he got to see like the first deer I killed when he was alive, and like him just being like in awe by its fuzzy tail. You know, stuff like that. I mean that I totally would never even think about. But when you take a second and you see how excited your kid is about the tail of a deer or its hooves, and then you take a second to be like, you know what, that is cool, and you start looking underneath it and taking a look at the hooves and touching them, and that kind of thing is what I'm talking about, where you just look at things different because they look at things so much different than we do in our jaded old person eyes. 00:05:45 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was just curious because I mean, you were at probably a little bit different place. But when what really kind of struck me with my little girls was I didn't realize how much I had burned myself out on fishing when I was young. Like I knew I had, you know, because it was I turned it into my job for a while, and I just wasn't it was a bad spot for me to be in. So I had kind of, you know, not fully stepped away from fishing, but I'd really pumped the brakes pretty hard for a while. And then with them, you know, it was when they were little, You're like, we're going to go out and drawn worms and use live bait and it's all bobber fishing and simple stuff. And when I would take them when they were like three or four, just this wave of like, oh man, you forgot how awesome this was, like how how fun this could be. And it just it that that was like my Like that was like when the door started opening up and I was like, man, I can see this happening with everything I do. Yeah, you know, like it because I just I didn't see that coming. You know, I'm like, I'll take my little girl's fishing, hopefully we catch something. And it just it changed like my mindset over it, and it made me I like, I enjoyed it again and it was so cool. 00:06:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really good point, and it kind of you kind of alluded to this before having kids. I think there's this, I mean, there's there's obviously some excitement, but I think there's also some like apprehension, you know, some some worries about how it's gonna change your time and your passion and so that you know there might be people. Now, there might be all the all the younger people that aren't parents yet. They maybe didn't even click on this podcast, so maybe they're not even listening to this one. But but hopefully there's a few folks out there who are thinking to themselves, Man, I think I want to have kids someday, but this stuff's kind of scary. 00:07:42 Speaker 4: Uh. 00:07:43 Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna what's gonna mean for my hunting and fishing craziness. I mean, for someone, if there's two people out there like that right now, Tony, and if you knew there was like two people listening to this podcast that are not yet parents, that are debating like should I have kids or should I not? And how's it going to change my honey and fishing passion and all that kind of stuff, Like what would you tell those people? Let's let's imagine it's Jill and Jill are listening and they're on the fence and they're thinking, Man, I love hunting and fishing. We travel the country, we do cool stuff. We've got it made. I don't know about this whole kid thing. What would you say to that person? With those people? 00:08:21 Speaker 3: First, first stuff, I'd pull Joe aside and I'd be like, listen, man, it's not really your choice. I know you think you're like an you have like equals, say in this, but if Jill's if Jill wants this, she's going to figure it out. Like it's probably gonna happen. But honestly, it's so hard some of the stuff so hard to convey if you're not in this space. You know, like when you when we talk about like the phases of you know, being a hunter, and you know, I just want I just want to kill something. I just want to kill this now, I want this trophy or whatever, and you go through them. You can't when you're in the thick of that whatever phase it is, you can't really see the next one, you know what I mean. Like you're just like this is important, and man, I I don't. I'm so lucky. I'm like you, Like, I get to do a lot of outdoor stuff. I hunt and fish a lot, and you know, a lot of different places. My favorite thing to do is to either take my girls turkey hunting or to take them hunting deer. Like I don't. It's better than anything else I get to do. And I'm talking you know, hunting, sweet places during the rut for myself, or going out into the mountains and hunting elk. I enjoy it that much. And you know, so you think like, oh man, I'm gonna have these kids and they're gonna you know, I'm not gonna have any time anymore. And yeah, you'll go through the you know that when they're young, you won't hunt as much as you want, probably, but once they start being able to just even go scout with you in the spring or go on a little shed hunt, it's like it's so worth it. It's so fun. And so you just got to know that, yeah, there's it's going to change for you, but the odds are pretty damn good it's going to change for the better. 00:10:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're right. It's really hard to say this stuff without sounding like a cliche or to have someone hear it, and unless they're in it themselves, just have them roll your eyes their eyes, you know, Like I think that when my dad was telling me this stuff, or even when you were telling me this stuff, you know, six years ago, before I had kids, I was probably rolling my eyes. So it's so hard to believe it until you feel it. But you're right, like that is the best stuff, and it's the best in ways that you never would have expected. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's one of the what's one of the awesome things you've done recently with your kids? I mean, is there is there? I know you've been outside with the girls. Tell me a story. Tell me a story. Is something you've done recently with both of them or one of them that is a good example of like this kind of thing. 00:11:03 Speaker 3: I will, but I want to I want to touch on something you just said, just because I think it's super important. I don't want to gloss over this. I noticed this, you know, I see this in your videos when you're fly fishing with your boys last year, and I know you kind of kept me up to date on your vacation down in Florida this year fishing with them. And one of the things, like maybe the most relatable way to put this is kids. You know, you mentioned it's kind of like these these experiences are so new, and it's like they're awe at every little thing. Is you know, we kind of take it for granted, but like the base level of it is they just have pure fun doing it, and that's like infectious. And I always tell people you know, like and this is like no secret, but the reason that the hunting public is so successful partially is people go those guys are having fun, no question. This doesn't feel like a job. Like it looks like they're enjoying. And that's that's like there's a big time gravity to that. And when you take kids out, you know, your your focus is like, man, i'd really look to catch a tarpin on a fly or something like we have these man goals, right, and the kids are like, I don't care what, you know, I want to catch grunts and whatever else under the dock and watch, you know whatever the little jellyfish swim by and use my little net because everything's pure fun. And if you just if you're exposed to that with your kids, there's like there's no way you're not going to enjoy it, Like it's going to just force you just like reframe your little world. And they bring you in and their enjoyment is just infectious and like that's probably I think that's like one of the coolest things not only about taking kids, but just taking new people out hunting and fishing. 00:12:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, so true, very very true. 00:12:46 Speaker 3: So you want to you want a story. 00:12:48 Speaker 2: Again, give me an example of one of these if you, I mean, if you can think of a moment recently that kind of illustrates what we're talking about here. I mean, I can, I can give you one example. While you're thinking speaking of those Florida fishing trips. You know, one of the wildest things has happened to me, and one of the coolest things as a dad has been seeing myself reflected back at me, like this bizarre alternate universe where I have been like removed from myself and I'm now watching myself as a kid, like when we were in Florida. And I don't think I've told this story in the podcast, but we went to Florida a couple months ago, and I know I was telling you about this, but we're we had a little place on the coast, and we had a dock and every morning, Everett, five years old, would get up, like before we're even really out of bed and going and he was running out the front door. I'd hear like the porch door open, and I had to run out there. What's he doing. He's got his fishing pole and he's running to the dock and he runs down the dock. He's got his life jacket on, he's got his fishing pole. He'd grab a little bag of of shrimp that we had in the freezer, and he would go out to the end of this dock, and he transformed into little Mark Kenyon at age like seven, eight or nine. When I would sit at the end of the dock, we would go up to my uncle, my great uncle's cabin in the Adirondic Mountains. He had a little place on the lake, and I would go out to the end of that dock and I would dunk worms for five six hours of a time, like I wouldn't come in for breakfast, I wouldn't come in for lunch, Like that's all I want to do. And now I'm watching my five year old do the exact same thing. Like he's out there at the end of this dock, dunk and shrimp, and he doesn't want to come in for anything. He doesn't want to come in for ice cream, he doesn't want to come in for lunch. He doesn't want to He just drops that shrimp. Got one, Dad, pulls it in, pulls off a grunt, drops it back in, pulls up a little yell tel snapper got one. Dad pulls it in. Oh man, it's a puffer fish. Dad. This is the best day ever. I mean, every little thing was the best thing ever. And uh and it just like like you said, it's infectious. All of a sudden in my head, I'm like, man, this is the best thing ever. Like this is this is so fun and so bizarre, seeing like this piece of me, separate of me now coming to life and looking just like I don't know, it must have been I don't know. It's just a wild, wild thing to see come into the world like that. I mean, that was one example for me that's just like, man, this is this is something else. 00:15:31 Speaker 3: So I gotta ask you. Since he's a mini you and there's nothing that could distract him out there, did you point out any cool pollinators in the yard or anything that might get him. 00:15:40 Speaker 2: No, pollinators were not on the menu. We were very focused. But what we did do is we pointed out sea life. So we were what was cool about this was not only was there the doc but there's also like tidepools. It was like a rocky shoreline, and so when the tide came out, we were finding all sorts of all sorts of hermit crabs and other things. And I've made a huge, huge mistake. This is a huge daddy blunder. I've never seen these things before. But uh, we got through the first morning and the tide was coming out and I saw these. They looked like a little purple like tide pods. Do you know what you know tidepods are? 00:16:15 Speaker 3: Right? Oh? 00:16:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I thought to myself, man, this is weird. These look like little tide pods that have washed up on the shore and like got inflated again, like it's kind of clear and blue, kind of filled up, and I'm looking at itellyfish here. Yeah, And my son reached down and touched one, and then I'm like, I don't think we should touch that, but I don't know what that is. And then later I found out it was a freaking man o war which are these if you touch, if you get the tentacles on you like major major painful jellyfish. And so I got very lucky that it wasn't a grab instead of just a poke. So that's another parenting thing, is you gotta really be on top of your game and learn your shit quick. But uh, but yeah, no, pol but we were seeing stingrays. We are seeing all the hermit crabs. There are all sorts of kinds of all sorts of kind of fish, pelicans. I mean, that's the other thing is like you mentioned like getting obsessed with tarpain or something, And that's easy for me to do, is like have the focus and like be obsessed with it. But kids, in this case, Everett was out there and he is not focused on anyone other than wanting to fish. But also like he will get excited by the pelican that lands on the dock, and then he'll remind you to look down at the weird thing floating in the water. And they still do, like notice all the little things that we gloss over, and we're so focused on the single pursuit, and they can enjoy the entire experience maybe a little better than we can sometimes. 00:17:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, you want to hear my story now, Yeah, for sure, I'll tell you a turkey hunting story because we have been we have really been in the trenches with the turkeys. We're all tagged out now in Minnesota. But it let me preface this by saying, I take turkey hunting for granted. I'm way too confident in turkey hunting, and I started this year. I started in Iowa, hunting for myself, got my ass handed to me and which which stings because I was like, this will be a you know, even on public land. I'm like, this will be a gimme. And then we came home to Minnesota, and usually in Minnesota I have them scouted out really well, and it's kind of like a first day, first couple of days type of thing asked handed to me. There, we went to Wisconsin hunted the youth season and I was like, at least we'll get one here. No birds, So I hunted, I think the first seven days, either me or mostly with my daughters. Never saw a legal bird, never saw jake, never saw tom. And I'm talking you know this, we're on field edges, like we should see something, right, just brutal. And my one daughter was like, I want a long beard this year so bad because she's killed a couple Jakes, and she's like, I just don't want to. You know, she would have shot one in a heartbeat, but she's like, I just love that long beard. My other one had killed three toms, so she's like I don't care whatever. Well, the one the Jake Shooter. We go out because I had one tom on this farm by my house who's got the thinnest beard, but he's he kind of moved in, so I was like, well, honey, he's kind of the only game in town. Let's go let's go after him. So we go out. I don't know. This is, you know, maybe seven eight days into the season, and I still haven't seen a legal bird yet. And We're sitting there and I'm calling this is an evening setup or an afternoon setup. We went on after school and a bird gobbles at me, and I'm like, oh my god, this is like the first response I've gotten that wasn't off the roost this season, and so call a little bit. I look out. He's standing like two hundred yards away, just kind of eyeballing the decoys. But it's like, you know, six o'clock, so we have like two hours to work him in because you can hunt till sunset. I'm like, this is gonna happen. He's by himself. This bird looks at us, gobbles a few times, turns around, cuts back into the swamp, and disappears. And I'm like, man, that was maybe he had hens or something. But I'm like, of course, you know, like why would he just why wouldn't he just you know, strut right on end. So anyway, we're sitting there and I just I pick him up in the swamp. I see him back there and he's scratching, but he's like two hundred two hundred and twenty five yards away and he won't pick his head up. I call. I'm throwing everything I've got at him, and he's just totally you know, uninterested, not gonna happen, and so I kind of give up on him. He disappears, and I'm looking I look at my phone and I'm like, honey, we have ten minutes left, and it's not gonna happen, you know, but we better ride it out anyway. And in it later, I was just I just happened to be looking at my daughter and that bird gobbled at like one hundred and fifty yards and her eyes like, I mean, she was just like they bugged out of her head. She just like panicked, like I gotta grab the gun. I'm like, let's just let's just settle down here. We got a little ways to go. Yet, We're not sitting here with a high powered rifle shooting them at you know, a football field and a half. We need them in the decoys. And so I'm like, okay, we got nine minutes for this bird to get here. And I start calling and she kind of peeks out the window and she goes, Dad, there's a turkey in the field. And we're sitting on a soybean field that's, you know, just flat dirt, and so I look out. I'm like, I don't see a turkey. And I'm like, I'm not going to miss a turkey in a soybean field. Like and so I'm like, where, honey, And she goes in the field and I go, well, how far away? And she goes, I don't know, fifty yards? And I'm like, you think there's a turkey fifty yards? Like we have this like I'm looking at there's not a turkey with fifty yards. So I look out in this cattail swamp and see this redhead bobbing through at like one hundred and twenty five yards and I'm like, is the turkey and the yellow stuff? And she goes, yeah, it's a hen. And I go, well, hey, it's a tom. And he's like, you know, two hundred times as far as you think, like he's not even anywhere near this. So anyway, he starts coming in and kind of like you know, one of those deals where he'll kind of half strut, kind of give you a look, but then start to turn like he wanted to go down this logging road off the field. So I'd hit him with some calls and he'd start moving in, and I'm looking at my phone and I'm like six minutes, four minutes, and finally he commits and comes in, and I'm like, we are like we're cutting it close, but we've got a little bit of time. But I told her, I was like, when he gets near the decoys, I'm gonna call real loud he'll stop and pick his head up because I didn't want him to start fighting because then they get really distracted if they're working on the jake, you know. And so this happens, I yelp and cut real loud, and he picks his head up and she dumps him, just smokes him, and I look at my phone and we have one minute left. Wow, like that we were down to the wire. And she's like, I got my tom I got my long beard, and then we run out there to look at him, and like three quarters of this little thin eight inch beard is just laying on the ground. She shot, so she's got like an eight strander, you know. But she's like, I don't care, it's a tom And it was so sweet. 00:23:39 Speaker 2: That's so great, that's awesome. So you bring something can mind when you're talking about this, like calling the bird and her getting all excited and ready. I have. I've taken my son actually both of them now out for turkeys, but not on like actual hunts, Like we just go and like we're acting like we're hunting and trying to get him in range. Yeah, but whenever I do that, they always want to use the calls, like they always want to try the calls, And in my head, I'm like, yeah, I want them to have fun. But the same time, as soon as I give this call to my son, ever, it's like crazy insane things and every animal that might be within sound range is now long gone. So two questions Number one is do you let the kids call when you're turkey hunting? Number two, and this is the bigger picture question, what's your thought process been, Tony when it comes to like this balancing act when we take our kids hunting between getting the animal, which seems like would be an amazing moment with our kids, versus letting the kids just do what's fun for them in the moment. So Part A, Part B. 00:24:49 Speaker 3: I do let my girls call some I mean, the best thing to do with kids is to get one of those spring loaded push button calls and then you know what I mean, and teach them, Okay, we do a three yelp or a five yelp or a seven yelp sequence, and then I always have a mouth call in to kind of drown them out if it's you know, if it starts to go a little haywire, which it will. But you know what, I what I tell my girls, and you know, they're in a different stage now than your boys are a lot older. But is you can tell me when to call, Like if you think we need a live in something up, should we should we go a little knots with a slate and the mouth call and really get after it. What should we do? You know? Like? And so I kind of I'm trying to get them to own a little bit more of the process, and it's hard. And this kind of leads into your second half. I want them to succeed so much that sometimes it's I'm I'm too much, Like I need to back off and realize they're they don't need that kill as much as I want them to have it. And it takes time. Man, It's it's tough because you know, this is like the number one problem, and maybe not the number one, but it's it's way up there. It's ranked on what we have when we take new people out. This is why it's so hard. If you're you know, if you're some the random hunting dude and you take your wife or your girlfriend out on her first hunt, you're gonna almost get divorced every time because you want it so bad and you're gonna be a prick about it and you're gonna be too serious and she doesn't care, you know, like she's not that newbie, isn't invested in this the way that you are. And that's something that my little girls in my when I take them, I'm like, I have to I have to put us in a cool setting where we have a chance, but more importantly, like we just have the opportunity to see some animals or hear some animals, or think we will and you know, it's like kind of back to when we were talking about fishing. It's like, you know, you might be sitting on the dock and not care about catching little grunts all day long, but your kid thinks it's the coolest thing in the world. You know, when I take my daughters out in northern Wisconsin, if a grouse walks through, or a you know, affiliated woodpecker or something starts working on a tree next to you, you might not even pick your head up from your phone sometimes for something like that, and they're like, oh my god, look at the size of that woodpecker, you know, Like, and so you just kind of got to reframe it and try to find that balance. But it's hard, man, because you just want it for them so bad. 00:27:31 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a constant struggle because and this might be wrong, but like the assumption or and I think a lot of people feel this way. As the mentor or the parent, you feel like, man, if they just experience, what's the best thing for me? And we think, like lots of times wrongly, but lots of times we think that the best thing is like getting the deer get in the turkey, Like we are aiming for that thing and I find my sometimes think like, man, if if he could just be with me when we get a turkey, if he's there for the first time we get a deer, that's gonna be the best thing ever, that'll have him hooked. And so, like you said, that leads us to being, you know, way too serious about it. But I think that's probably a mistake. I think because if you if you go too far that direction and the process itself along the way isn't fun, then I don't think that end result probably matters that much for him because they don't enjoy any of it. So at least that's why I keep on trying to remind myself. But it's it's hard. It's hard. 00:28:35 Speaker 3: Well, but you're right, man, Like, there's there's such value in in like some level of struggle. You know, you don't want him to go out and have it super easy, but you also want to really kind of manage that struggle. You know, if they're super cold and uncomfortable, or you know, if there's if they're real tired or something, if if there's like impounding effects of like the misery in addition to just not having success right away, then things go solve right then then you're at risk of just making it too much of a bad thing. And so I kind of look at it like that's why I like turkey hunting so much. You know, if you pick and choose decent days and they've got handwarmers or whatever, and you're you know, they're eating candy and the blind the discomfort levels can be managed real well, you know, and so then it's like even if the turkeys don't show up too much or they're not cooperating, at least they're not like I hate this, you know, because I'm not. And we you know, we just don't. It's hard to relate to that because you know, we're we have good gear and we're used to going out and sitting in a tree stand from dark to dark, and like, this is what we do. This is our driver for them. We're just trying to get them to a place of like you start loving it a little bit and then we'll we'll start, you know, we'll be okay, being a little colder or a little more hungry or tired or whatever. But right now that it's so important to manage that. 00:30:18 Speaker 2: What about for you the next thing about like trying to balance that fun versus the hunt itself for me is like doing things the right way. So I guess this kind of ties back to the calling thing. So I find myself constantly struggling out there between the trying to get my boys to do the right thing. So don't like I'm constant whisper, you gotta whisper, Yeah, talk quiet, you gotta whisper, you gotta whisper, and catching myself like just harping on them over and over, and I'm like, Okay, you get to ease up, or you know, moving too fast, moving too much, standing up when they should be sitting down, like all those things. And I know that if you harp on them too much on that stuff, it's not fun anymore. But if you don't harp on them some, they're not gonna learn, they're not gonna get better, and we're never gonna see a damn thing. So like trying to do that, Like I find myself constantly when I'm out there, like having this internal dialogue with myself, like having to hold myself back from my instinctual like stop, stop, shut up, be quiet, whisper constantly in my head, like stopping myself, but also trying to figure how do I and I guess this is a general parenting thing. How do you teach them or get them to do something without being a total ahole? 00:31:37 Speaker 3: Uh? You know what? You Well, I'll address that in a second. But don't you think you get enough practice being patient in that situation when you hunt with a cameraman over your shoulder? 00:31:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good training for you. 00:31:50 Speaker 3: Right are you? Are you literally eating another handful of starburst in my ear right now at twenty minutes before dark wild? 00:31:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, while this buck is approaching? Come on people? 00:32:02 Speaker 3: Yeah? Are you are you going to clank that metal uh yetti against something one more time while we're out here? Yeah? 00:32:08 Speaker 2: Did you bring a metal YETI again, dude? 00:32:13 Speaker 3: Uh? With kids, I think you gotta I think what and listen? I maybe am a poor example of this because I can lose my cool pretty fast sometimes. But like my first my first year Turkey with the girls, they were eight and the one who just killed that little thin Tom she's a lunatic, Like, she is not a patient child, she is not a she's not a child who takes direction well, she's she's like a little Tasmanian devil. And we had when she started Turkey hunting. I called in so many birds and she spooked so many birds, and it was one of those things where I'm like, I can't lose my shit over it, because it's going to happen, and I just need her to understand, like, if those birds are ten yards away in the decoys and you're moving your head all around or your hands all around, they're gonna get us. And they did. And so you kind of just have to accept some of that. It's like, you know, you got to learn how to move, like, and you do that by making mistakes, right, Like the best deer hunters out there make They've made thousands of mistakes. I mean, you might make a thousand mistakes a season, yeah, you know, And so some of that you just like that's acceptable, Like you're like, Okay, you're just gonna have to learn to do this the right way. Some of it, when they're making noise or they're you know, they're being squirrely or whatever, like you you can tamp that down a little bit and be like, listen, you know, if you're going to open a package of pop tarts, let's just get this. Let's rip this band aid off, Let's not crinkle it around for five minutes, you know, stuff like that. But it's just a learning process. I was I was going to ask you, I don't know enough about Michigan. Uh, what what's the minimum age out there? Like when will you be able to take your boys actually hunting. 00:34:14 Speaker 2: So they can go with me, you know, from the get go? And I think the latest if I remember right, I think this it's a mentor kind of situation here in Michigan where as soon as they're ready to go, they've got a few years before having hunter safety that they can go with a parent or mentor at any age. 00:34:32 Speaker 3: And is that Turkey's and dear yes, dude, So how how old is your oldest boy? 00:34:37 Speaker 2: He's five? 00:34:38 Speaker 3: But what are what are you anticipating? Like when are you? Like, I think this is going to be we'll be able to do this when he's what age? 00:34:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing I'm thinking a lot about. He's ready to go right now. He wants to he wants to do it right now. He got a BB gun for his birthday and so he's like he's shooting a BB gun. He's very effective, he he is. He wanted to shoot a deer this year too, and all these things. I think he's he's too young for all of it. Still, I don't know exactly when that right age will be, But I if you had to, if you're going to put a you know, if you're going to force me to put a number out there, maybe i'd say a couple more years. Yeah, I don't know exactly when. He's very excited about it. He's pretty darn good for a five year old. Like he can he can hold pretty darn still, he can, he can do everything pretty well. He's he's going to be the easy one, the younger one, kind of like you mentioned, is gonna be my Tasmanian devil. But Everett could probably do it. I actually think, like I would give better than fifty to fifty odds he could pull it off well this year even. But I just want to make sure he's a little more mentally, you know, mature. I think maturity is the thing I want to keep working on with him so that he are you worried? 00:36:00 Speaker 3: Sorry, but are you? Are you worried there on the maturity level about having like an ugly death, like you know, yeah, I mean, is that kind of the concerns. 00:36:10 Speaker 2: It's that so part of it is that, like, I want to make sure he's he's more proficient and more mature to avoid that kind of mishap. And then number two just like to get it, like I see there's kids out there now, Like I'm seeing videos on YouTube on social like in these states where there's no minimum age where dads are taking their sons out or sons or daughters and they're they're killing a deer at five years old or six years old. And like, kids can do that. I know they can do that. There's kids that can effectively shoot in and and nothing against that. I just for my children, I'm trying to figure out when that age is when they can understand at least to some degree, the gravity of what they're doing. And I don't know what that right age is yet for my kids. And that's what I'm trying to figure out. But but I want to make sure if we are And this is like a big, big overarching thing, Tony that I have a lot I don't know the answer to yet, between like fostering the fun and this experience versus also providing them or helping them understand the gravity of it or the importance of it, you know, Like that's the thing I'm trying to figure out with with the BB gun, Like my son is a BB gun now and he wants to, you know, hunt every little critter out there right, chasing birds and chipmunks and everything. And I did that when I was a kid, and it was fun and I think that was part of what was one of the things that you know, helped me become a hunter. So I want him to have this little miniature version of his own hunt and feel like he's really doing it. But I'm trying to figure out, like, how do I also teach him about like the importance of it and if you are going to shoot an animal what that means, and how do I do that in a way that isn't over his head at five years old, that doesn't like crush his soul in the fun of it, but also somehow still like in a child friendly way, teaches him that this isn't you know, just to game, that this is actually a serious thing too. I don't I don't have the answer to that. I'm trying to figure it out. But those are the questions I've got when it comes to figure out when he's gonna hunt for a turkey and zone and a deer with me and all that kind of stuff. 00:38:13 Speaker 3: Yeah, man, that that part's tough. That was that was my primary concern with taking the girls deer hunting, because you know, turkey's I don't know, they're just there is not that connection to a turkey the way that you know, kids can feel with a deer. It's a different thing. And I was terrified of a spine shot. Yeah, you know, And it's I think, you know, people might disagree with me on this, but you know, you're raising two little boys. I'm raising two girls. I've got hunting buddies who have boys who are the girl's age and they hunt like crazy. There's a there's it's there's a difference. I mean, you know when you talk about your little boy running around the BB gun trying to shoot every sparrow and chipmunk and everything he can. I mean that was a lot of us, right, I mean when we were you know, when I was younger, we I have murdered so many little sparrows and pigeons and starlings and stuff in my life with BB guns and pellet guns growing up, and that was what we lived for. And there's like a you know, I see this in some of my buddies little boys. There's like a bloodthirst there that I don't see in the girls. You know, like they don't they have animals. They're like, no way, not shooting that, not doing that, And they don't they don't have this desire to just go out and kill whatever. And so I always felt with them, like, man, one bad death and we we this might end. Like it always felt sort of like a house of cards. So I'm just curious about that with the age thing, because as they get more mature, you know, they understand what they're doing, you know, like they start to learn, yeah, I'm taking a life and it you know, like it's there's some weight to this. But man, that initial stage where you take them out, you're just like, I I know, if they stick with us, they'll have an ugly one. They'll they'll spine one or you know, something's gonna happen. But I hope it's not now, Like I hope it's down the road when they've done this and they've been a part of the you know, the scouting process and the work involved, and then they've helped you butcher one and they love to eat it and they go okay, yeah, that that thing sucked. I don't want to do that again, but the overall process is worth it. Yeah. 00:40:39 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, it's a doozy like all all that. There's there's so many of those things that I'm I'm finding these these uh tricky lines you have to walk between, like you know, like you said, like trying to minimize the risk of something bad happening while also still letting them have fun, or like how do you encourage the fun while also introducing and helping them understand the importance of it, or you know, like with my boys and Everet especially, he's you know, he's developing a love for animals while also he has this love for hunting, and you know, he's learning about you know, school stuff and the like wildlife videos and shows and stuff we're learning. He's starting to hear about how hunters nearly sent this animal to extinction and how this animal is struggling in the rainforest or something, and so I'm trying to help him already. It's crazy at five, you know, he's being introduced to this like serious stuff and I'm trying to understand how do you how do you make this make sense to a five year old in a way that he can enjoy hunting and love the outdoors and understand like it's okay to do it, but also know that this comes with like an obligation to also take care of nature. And so I'm trying to think of like how do you do that and the kit appropriate way that doesn't like make it not fun and doesn't become overwhelming, but like in some kind of five year old brain way makes sense. I don't know, those are those are the things that I'm dude. 00:42:15 Speaker 3: If you figure that out with a five year old, you let me know, because I know forty five year olds who don't get it. Yeah, you know. I mean it's that's a tough thing. But I think it's just I think it's just get them in a position to develop a love for the outdoors. I know it's like so cliched, but you know, if you if if you're waking up at five and you're running out the door to go fishing, like you're getting there already, like you you're gonna love it so much that you don't want to see it go away. Yeah, And I just I think that's important, you know. And I think it's just exposure to a lot of different things in the outdoors. You know, it's not just seeing a big buck. It's like seeing all the animals that live in the big woods, you know. Like it's I think that it's just a it's so important to get them out there to experience a lot of different stuff. And then I think that will come eventually. Yeah, he's not going to get it when he's in you know, kindergarten, but the like the framework can start to be built already. 00:43:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just it's yeah, I think that's a great point. You're building a foundation now. And the foundation doesn't need to be over complicated, but it's you build it a little bit by little bit. But the key thing that has to be there from the get go is the fun, the love, the enjoyment, and then you give I think if you just kind of every once in a while you add a little something more, you satiate a little bit curiosity, you answer a question, you show you know, bring them up to be a part of like what you're doing. Like so perfect example this, uh was walleye fishing the other day with the dad of one of my son's friends at school. And so we went fishing in the morning and then we went to go pick up the kids from cool and uh, we had not cleaned the fish yet, So we were gonna filay the fish on the tailgate of the truck at school and then save a couple so when the kids came out we could show them. And so picked up the kids after school, came out to the trucks, and then the two of them were just so so excited to get to seize a couple of fish in the cool or pick them up, look at them together, and then watch us, you know, fillaying them and showing them what we were doing. They got to touch everything and look at everything and spin it around and play with in a kid way. But then, you know, I mean, anytime you can get them involved in like the whole process, I think that builds like an appreciation itself, even without talking about it. Just like, not only did we have fun hunting or hunt have fun fishing, but we also had fun in the process of turning this into a thing that we are appreciating and using. And so they got to see the fish getting cut up and then tonight they're gonna help me fry it up and we're gonna eat it tonight together. And that helps, you know, without even saying a thing, I think you're teaching that some of those lessons and maybe that's the best thing, that's the easiest way maybe to treat to help teach those kinds of things is just show it with your actions and have them in a part of it. 00:45:16 Speaker 3: I totally agree. I mean, I think the more parts of this that you can involve them in, the better, you know, Like, and I think that's a mistake that in the hunting industry we've made, partially due to the constraints of the kind of content we make. But you see so often like oh, you know, we're taking my buddy's kid out on his first hunt, and you know, it's like you go sit in a box bind over a food plot and seventeen deer walk out and one of them get shot, and there there's like it feels very surface level, you know. And it may be it may not be you're only getting the twenty two minutes to show or whatever, but we've kind of like presented that image that you just bring them into this, you know, kind of babysat situation they killed or done. And when you're doing it yourself with kids, your kids or you know, whatever, if you're bringing newbies out or whatever, you're just like, Okay, there are so many opportunities like you're talking about with those walleyes and the little boys that are not that's not like a part of a fishing trip. Really, like that's not something we focus on. You don't think about it, but it's important. It's so important for developing like a greater just curiosity and love of the game, you know. I mean, I my my other the one, my one daughter. Two nights ago, I was turkey hunting with her. She still had a tag left, and we called in three jakes and she killed her bird. And when we when we got back to clean it, she's like, Dad, I want to I want to see you know this, this, this and this. You know, She's like, can you take his heart out? Can you show me his lungs? I'm like, let's chill here a dexter, like you'll, we'll get there. But then she's like, I want to know what he was eating. And so we cut his crop open and it was grass and I think they were I think there were foxtail seeds. I'm not sure, but these little seeds in there, and she was like, can I touch that, and I was like, you go nuts, like I don't, I don't really care what you touch her. And she's like, I can't believe I'm holding turkey food that a turkey found and ate and then it was in him, like you know, And I'm like, I just want to get this thing cut up because this is the fourth turkey I've cleaned in like five days. I'm like, I'm over this. But those parts, like you, you don't know what they're going to think about that as you move on, you know, like some somehow that's going to be a little core memory. When I'm turkey hunting with her next year, She's going to be like, I wonder what those turkeys are eating, you know, Like your little boy is going to be like, I can't wait to catch my own walleyes so we can cook them up for the family or whatever like that. I think that stuff just matters so much. 00:47:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, so so so much. So your story with your daughter just reminded me of another big moment in our family. I don't know, a couple of months ago, so I mentioned the BB gun and I've got I've got some questions for you about this too. But so Everett got a bb gun for his birthday. Great opportunity to a whole lot of you know, firearms safety discussions and lots of practice and a lot he's obsessed with it, loves it doing all that stuff. It's been a really fun thing for us. But eventually it was like, okay, you know, you can, you know, I'm goin to let him do some of that stuff that you talked about doing as these little boys they want to go out and be a hunter finally for the for the first time. And so he got his first bird. H a few weeks ago or a monthly or something, got a little bird. And I actually wasn't even around for My wife was out with him and I was recording a podcast, and I came back out and my wife's eyes are just big, and she's like, he actually got one. And I was like, oh man, we weren't really expecting him to this effective so quickly, and so, you know, right away and saying, okay, you know, how do we handle this, What do I want to teach him? What do we get out of this moment? And so he just wanted to see everything, kind of like your daughter did. And and so we broke the end. We broke it down. We opened up this bird, we breasted it out. We looked at the pieces and parts and talked about it, and he wanted to save the feathers and save the wings and all these different stuff. But then we were left with the little carcass. And then we decided. You know what, he asked me, He's like, well, I wonder, you know, what are we gonna do this? What's gonna happen to this? And I said, well, you know, something's probably gonna eat it, you know, with the leftovers. And then I thought, you know what, why don't we learn Why don't we find out what's going to eat this? So we went and set up a trail camera, put the carcass in front of the trail camera, and let it run overnight and turn on video mode, and we got this really cool little lesson that tied the whole hunt together. When we got to the next next day, watch video of a possum come out, come up and check it out, and then a raccoon come up and start eating it, and then a second raccoon come and nibble on it. And so we got to kind of see this whole circle of life kind of thing. And I had this opportunity to teach this tiny little you know, ecology lesson I guess about how well and something does die in nature, other animals will come and feed on it, and so it kind of just kind of goes around. Everything's got to eat. And it made what was what could have been just like a kid shooting something, turn into an opportunity to learn about you know, well, if you shoot something, we're gonna break it down, we're gonna try to eat it, or we're gonna try to use it. And also this is what happens afterwards, and this is how other animals will benefit from it. And they thought, my kids thought it was the coolest thing in the world. They were so obsessed with watching that video and they want to show everyone the video and they want to tell everyone the story. And it wasn't a story just about how eever it shot its first bird, but now is the story about how we got to see it, we got to touch it, we got to see a raccoon eat it, and all that kind of stuff. So it was it was it was a fun, interesting example of maybe how how to do that kind of stuff? 00:51:08 Speaker 3: That is it that is cool. 00:51:10 Speaker 2: So that leads me to my question about shooting. I was curious what you have learned as you have been trying to teach your girls to to shoot, whether it be a firearm or archery. I've been, you know, just starting with the BB gun with Everett, and both of the boys have been you know, learning to shoot little bows. So that's been a process. What what's worked for you guys as you've gone through that process? And when did you start? 00:51:38 Speaker 3: Should I tell you what didn't work? 00:51:40 Speaker 2: Sure? 00:51:42 Speaker 3: Man? So when it hasn't been that long in Minnesota where we've had no minimum age for turkeys, I don't remember when they changed it, but it wasn't it wasn't super long ago. But when they did, you know, I was like, oh, thank god, I can take my girls hunting. So I impulsively went out and bought a little Youth Model twenty gauge, and I thought this will be perfect, you know, like they will start on the I mean, we started with a BB gun and then we shot at twenty two and I was like, but this will be their first like turkey gun. And I took the girls out, and you know, I bought one of those bog pods that the Death Grip deals that you can lock a gun in there, you know, and that kicks that that that holds down the recoil a little bit because it's pretty heavy. And anyway, my my one daughter, my lunatic daughter, she squares up to it to shoot, and I had a you know, it was like a little trapload in there, like seven and a half two and three quarter or whatever, and so I'm like, this will be no big deal. And I'm watching her take her first shot. And she picked her head up then pulled the trigger, so now there was like two inches of space between her face and this gun. And this gun kicks a lot because it's so small, and she got a bloody lip, fat lip, and I just like it was like a car wreck in slow motion. I'm like, oh, you have you have screwed up so bad, and I knew it. And she was like, well, I'm not shooting that gun anymore. And I was. My other daughter was okay with it, but she didn't like it. And I'm like, this was so dumb, so dumb, and I had to I just happened to have a little four ten twenty two little savage that I bought when I was in high school to hunt, you know, squirrels and rabbits and whatever. And I was like, well, honey, I have a smaller gun we could try. And I had to. I had to back up the process and start with a BB gun again because she was like understandably flinching like crazy, and I'm like, I can't take her hunting because she's gonna it's it's going to be a train wreck. And so I had to go all the way through the process of shooting at twenty two again and then finally shooting that four ten. But it took until this year when they're eleven to get her to shoot a different gun. She's like, I like that four ten because it doesn't I always want to shoot that. But that's like a base level turkey gun, you know, like if you can find the turkey loads for it. And I'm like, we need to, you know, we need to like jump up a level here at some point. But it was it was a dumb thing on my part, and it was like, you know, we've been dealing it with it for three years, just that one mistake, you know, and I feel like we're kind of over it. But it was just you gotta be so careful with that stuff, like you can't. I think when you're talking about introducing kids to guns, you can't take it too slow. There is no such thing as too slow, but there is too fast. 00:54:53 Speaker 2: Yeah. You have they shot any kind of small rifle or anything, Yeah, like a twenty two or anything. 00:55:01 Speaker 3: Well, they've shot twenty twos a lot. And that was kind of our bridge, right, because that's it. That's a gun with no kick, but it has a loud enough bang. Yeah, where you know, and obviously they're using hearing protection and stuff. But it's weird. You know, we kind of take it for granted. We're like we throw on hearing protection and shoot a muzzle or shud rifle whatever. They're just loud, but you're using protection. But they they just view it differently. Like they'll ask me, you know, if we if we go to shoot a new gun, they'll be like, how loud is it? I'm like, it's as loud as every other gun. Like they're all out, they're breaking the sound barrier. 00:55:35 Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's it's a post do you do that annoying thing where like you say, like it's breaking the sound barrier? And speaking of which, did you know the latest rocket can reach the next planet and this speed and based on the propulsion power of this rocket. Did you know that, Elon, Is that the kind of dad you are? Uh? Probably so okay, So now. 00:55:57 Speaker 3: We use such an angry, condescending voice to describe it. But yeah, maybe. 00:56:01 Speaker 2: I'm like that, so sorry, continue, But anyway. 00:56:06 Speaker 3: You gotta be careful with it. And you know, that's one of the things that I don't know if we've really talked about this or not, but they have. I bought them a youth vertical bow. They're they're kind of getting used to that a little bit, but they've been hunting with a crossbow for deer, and you know, I'm I'm not interested in crossbows. They're not fun for me. You're just not my thing. But for kids, you know, they're not loud, they don't kick, they're insanely accurate, so that makes them fun to shoot it. And that was kind of another bridge for me, was they're like, I love shooting this. You know, you don't. You don't have to worry about the bang, you don't have to worry about the recoil. And so that was kind of another thing I did not see coming, you know, partially because I had almost no experience with them when I bought one for them, you know, but you just you find different ways to just like make this process happen. But it's a slow one. I mean it can be and probably should be. You know. 00:57:05 Speaker 2: Yeah, what age did you get him start with a crossbow? Crossbows kind of freaked me out for some reason, Like there's just a lot of power packed into that pullback string, and even when I've shot them in the past, like I'm just like, keep those fingers down, keep those fingers down. Yeah, yeah, when did you When did that start with them? And what was that like early on? 00:57:25 Speaker 3: I started with him when so I bought them this youth cross bow when they were like eight, and you know, they would come out and target shoot with me some you know. And I'm the same way, man, I when I shoot a crossbow or I handle a cross bow, I feel like I'm trying to ride a unicycle. Yeah, it is an awkward thing that I just I'm not comfortable with kind of like you know, when we were out in Montana last month and the uh doing that long range rifle shoot we did, Yeah, I was so uncomfortable, you know, like that was so unnatural for men, you know, I don't shoot rifles that way. That that whole thing. It was cool. But that kind of stuff's a good reminder to us because you know, we're so comfortable picking up a bow or you know, like I'm so comfortable handing only a shotgun in my life, and so you take it for granted. But with a kid, all that stuff's new, and so you kind of just gotta like, you gotta slowly get them into there. But the crossbow thing was an easy transition, and it was it was fun because those things are so stupid accurate. If they're shooting at a deer target at like twenty yards, they don't hardly ever screw up. Yeah, you know what I mean, it's like it's a different thing. I mean when people are like, oh, they're the same thing as a vertical bow, I'm like, uh uh, You're like they're just not. Like, let's not pretend they are. But I'm happy that we got to go through that there. Like if you would have asked me ten years ago if I want crossbows in Wisconsin, have said absolutely not. But then when I've got little girls and they want to shoot something and I could deer hunt with them, I'm like, I think I'll change my stance on this a little bit, you know. 00:59:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can see that. 00:59:13 Speaker 3: Hold on, They're they're legal in Michigan too, right, Yeah. How do you feel about it? Like, how do you feel about it with the boys? Uh? 00:59:22 Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess I haven't thought terribly hard about it, but I think I guess I don't know. 00:59:33 Speaker 3: You're not you're kind of agnostic on it. You're like, I might take him with it. I might not. 00:59:36 Speaker 2: Yes, I would, I would say I'm agnostic. I know that Everett has an interest in shooting a vertical bow. He's already shooting, you know, a little wheelbow. Probably this year gonna get him one of those tiny compounds. They are super adjustable, and I think he's pretty jacked about that, and we'll want to go that route. But at the same time, if I told him he could go out there and use a crossbow sooner, you know, he would probably like, yeah, whatever, I'll use whatever I can do to be out there and hunt. So in that case, I mean, to your point, they're super I don't have any fundamental issue with crossbows personally. It's not my jam, it's not what I want to use. And there's been from everything. I've seen a lot of studies out there that have shown that it's not changing the actual harvest. Even it might be changing the percentage it's killed in archery versus gun season, but it's you know, it's not decimating deer herds anywhere, it's not ruining age structure anywhere, it's not actually messing up the resource. So if it's if it's helping people have a good time out there and keeping people hunting longer or getting them started sooner, I guess I don't see a whole lot of reasons to hate on it, other than like it might not be the experience we want personally or for some people. So in that case, like if my kids were like, man, I really want to get after it, and they're not quite ready with a vertical bow, but I think they could do it with the crossbow, I guess that would probably be on board with it, as long as it doesn't keep them from you know, pursuing the practice and the you know work necessary to become proficient with a vertical bow, because I know that's such a great experience, that's such a great thing to to work on to get good at. That is so much fun, and the the work necessary to get good with it, I think is a big part of why it's so good, you know what I mean? Sure, Like I think a downside to crossbows is that they're so easy that it does not require the dedication. So I think, you know, there's an argument to be made, like vertical bow hunters have to dedicate themselves to their pursuit so much more than a crossbow hunter, because it's just just to become proficient at it, and to stay proficient requires an attention to detail and a certain amount of work in practice. That like, there's value in that. I think. I don't know how much value. I don't know, you know, I'm not going to say that they're better than the other. It's just a different thing that I find valuable, and so I would I would want that for my kids eventually. But I don't think there's anything wrong you know, doing a little bit of both to get. 01:02:10 Speaker 3: Started, I suppose, Yeah, you know, I'm I feel like you Obviously, I'm in a little different place because my girls have actually hunted with a crossbow. But my one daughter is really geeked up to hunt with a vertical bow. The other one's kind of so so on it. And you know, I have mixed feelings about that, because I want them to hunt the way I hunt, you know, like I want I want them to appreciate the process you're talking about, a learning how to become proficient with a vertical bow. But I also loved I mean, I really love the fact that, you know, I was like, if I can get a deer within twenty yards, they're probably going to make a good shot, yeah, you know, and that because again, and it might be it's different with different kids, but I was like, it's so easy to make a big mistake with a vertical bowt you know, and if you're if you're in a ground blind at twenty yards on you know, pressure deer and they got to draw. I'm like, there's a good chance of a deer duck in the string a little bit or something. And just and maybe I'm just justifying taking them out with a crossbow early, but I feel like we're working into that stage you're talking about with a vertical bow, and so I don't necessarily feel like starting them on a crossbow took them like change the arc of their you know, their hunting career. But at the same time. I'm not there yet, Like they're not hunting with a vertical bow, and I don't I worry because they'll have that crutch. Right if we go out and they miss a deer or something bad happens with a vertical bow, they'll know they can go back to that easier weapon. And you know, maybe that really doesn't matter. Maybe this is something like I'm bringing to the table, but it it is something that I devote some of my mental horsepower too, because I think about it a lot, and I don't I just don't. No, I don't know where that shakes out. 01:04:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think you make a lot of good points there, and probably the most important thing is to make get fun and get them out there and ease them into this situation with as little risk for a catastrophic instant as possible. And you know they'll get there when they get there with this other stuff. But I mean, if you were to compare, like, what's the worst case scenario with each the worst case scenario with the crossbow, let's say is like, well, they end up looking at it as a crutch and they just use that all the time and they don't develop a love of shooting a vertical bowl like you do. Okay, that's a bummer, but they're still hunting. They still like to get out there. While like the worst case scenario with a vertical ball might be man, they spined one. It was a really devastating thing to see and experience, and they never want to do it again. They're done hunting, you know, So you make a I mean, that's hard to argue against, right there. 01:04:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, any you know, it's weird too because we the way we feel about vertical bows and crossbows, we bring like so much personal baggage with it. Yeah, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't feel that way if my little girls are like, hey, can we rifle hunt deer? Even though I'm almost as unfamiliar with deer rifles as I am with crossbows, Like, I mean, not quite. You know, I've filled a few deer with a rifle, and I'm you know what, it's a little different. But it wouldn't even I wouldn't feel like that took away from the archery experience I want them to have, right you know. It's just like sometimes you just like bring a little bit too much bullshit to the table, I think, and it maybe doesn't matter. 01:05:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're probably right. We're just bringing our own stuff. 01:05:43 Speaker 3: So hey, can I make a prediction here? Yeah, I'm going to go I'm going to say that Mark Kenyon's sons will start with a cross bow because they'll be able to hunt earlier with that than they will with a vertical bow. So I'm I'm looking at my crystal ball and I'm going to say that those Kenyan boys are gonna kill their first year with the crossbow. 01:06:03 Speaker 2: You probably aren't too far off. Uh yeah, I mean Effort would be out there this year right at your rock and roll if I told him he could be using one of those crossbowts and he could do it. He's uh, he's a fiend. I Uh. I told the story. I think it was last week on the podcast, but I'll just give you the ten second version. I was gonna take him out the other day just to go with me on a turkey hunt quote unquote, like just to go call him in like we've done the past, and he just started crying like devastate. I'm like, why are you upset? He's like, I want us to kill a real bird, Dad. We gotta get a real bird. We gotta get him. It's like I don't have my license, yeat, Like I wasn't playing and actually going for a week. But he just wants to hunt, like really hunt, so so so bad and if if he can't be shooting, he wants me to be really really bad. So uh so yeah, he's uh, he's ready to rock and roll. Is there any big thing you've learned when it comes to the deer hunting side of things with all this? I mean, we've talked about balancing the fun, We've talked about balancing the discomfort. We've talked about balancing the risk of something bad happening. I think all that kind of all comes to it's like greatest highest point with like the big creature like a deer and all that. What are some of the things you've learned about just handling that full experience the right way? Anythings have gone wrong or have gone really right as you've gone down that path further and further, I would. 01:07:48 Speaker 3: Say a couple of the things that I've learned is, you know, the more that I can get them involved, like we talked about, in any part of the process, so I you know, we hunt on the ground lines, we run trail cameras, and I want them to help me set that stuff up. So I guess a different way to look at this is we view this as parents. We go, we're we're the guides, we're taking them out, we control the situation. And that's largely true, but not to the extent that it seems you end up kind of realizing that you have to treat this like a partnership. And so, yeah, I need them to go help me set up so they appreciate what it's like to be out there and get bit by a few deer flies and you know, do a little work. But then I also need to just back off and really listen to them when you know, we're hunting, if they're super tired and they don't want to get up like tomorrow, if they're like it's been three days in a row, I have to respect that because because I've pushed it too far, or if we're out there and I can just I'm getting the vibe that they're done for this sit you know, if it's you know, eight thirty in the morning, and you know, I'm like, man, we should stick this out for a while. But if they're if the signals are going up and they're done. I have to respect that because it's not my hunt. And that's a hard thing, man, because it's like there's sometimes they're just not feeling it quite the same way, or something changes and they're they're done, or you know, kind of like one of the things that has happened that actually broke in my favor was, you know, the girls are like, I'm not shooting a phone, I'm not shooting a dough with a fon. I want, you know, this kind of buck or this kind of dough or whatever. And I'm like, great, let's do that. But when deer get in front of them, they're like, I want to shoot that deer. And so you just like you just realize, You're like, I gotta let this happen for them, Like I got to set it up. I gotta help, you know, help put them into the position. But I don't want to influence so much that they're worried like, oh if I shoot this, like what's he gonna think? Or that, Like I want to leave that wide open for them. You know, if they don't want to shoot it, great, If they want to, great, And then you know the process of like okay, if you take that shot. We have to work through every part of this now and just they just how you have to just do that. And it's it's hard because you want to control so much of every aspect of it, but it's not your hunt, you know, like it's literally not your hunt, and you that's a hard thing to just kind of reconcile. 01:10:39 Speaker 2: But it's true, man, and it's it's it's so true, and it can be painful sometimes when it goes back to what we talked about earlier, with like how bad we want it versus how bad they want it to happen. You know, I had like two different great examples of this last year. Last year I got to take Everet hunting with me a lot. It was like the best thing I did last season was you know, prioritizing hunting time with him, and so, I mean, you know, in past years, I would have been so obsessed with like I need to maximize every single moment I have to kill a big deer, blah blah blah. And last year I was like, no, we're gonna have fun. And so I think like seven or eight hunts, you know, during pretty good times of the year, I was hunting with Everett and a couple times that like that cost us because I was hunting his hunt and like listening to his signals. But I mean, like like one perfect examples, we went like, we're gonna get a deal. He was so excited, he said, I want us to get a dough together. We're gonna do It's gonna be a great time. So we went out. I had all the stuff, you know, we had. You know, I kind of figured out the things he needs to make it through a sit He's pretty good. What we can get like a several hour sit in with him. He was four at the time this past season. But you know, he needs some reading material, he needs a lot of snacks, he needs uh, you know, his binocular so he can look at stuff. He's a few things along the way to get him through it. But we got to the end of the night. It's like the last fifteen minutes and like I'm seeing deer moving coming our way, and he's also like, Dad, gotta go to the bathroom. I'm like, all right, well, there's only fifteen minutes left. He's like, Okay, you're right, I can just hold him. Ten minutes later, the dose are getting closer and closer, I'm like, all right, man, get ready, and he's like I really think I got a poop, Dad, And I'm like, well, can't you hold It's only like eight more minutes and this deer coming, We're about to get him. He's like okay, yes, sure, And like a minute later, they're like approaching range, say Dad, yeah, get a poop. We gotta go, Like, well, dang it, they're right here, like can't you just we could get a deer? And I want it so bad and I want to fight him on this because I know he can hold it. He's he's a big kid. But you get to see he's like he's like, nah, I'm ready to go now. I'm ready to go back home. And like, okay, all right, I'm not gonna fight it, not gonna We just gotta go. Or another time I took him up to our cabin up north and the last day of the hunt, and there was a lot of fresh snow from overnight, and we walk out to our blind that we'd set up and there are there are fresh tracks from a deer that had not a deer, like a buck, like pretty darn obvious buck. Tracks that a calm come and walked right past the blind relatively recently, and you know, I thought to myself, man, that's great, we got fresh tracks. This buck come walking through. You know, he very well might come back through. There might be some other deer passing through. Conditions are great. But at the same time, like we might want to just follow this and he might have fun just following this track. So I'm like, hey, buddy, what do you want to do. We could sit in the blind. We got a good chance that, you know, these deer might come circling back through. We might see something else. Or if you want, we could just go walk that track and see what happens. He's like, let's walk the track, Dad, we gotta go walk the track. And of course that's what he wants to do. So we go and we walked that track and he's, you know, making noise. He's having a blast, like he was having a lot of fun with it and like trying to to find what he was doing and where he was going and what was going on. But you know, long story short, we follow the track for like an hour and then he's tired. He's like, I'm done for the day. 01:14:09 Speaker 3: Dad. 01:14:09 Speaker 2: That was great, but you know, I'm done, And so we go back to the cabin and I had to go back to the blind though, to break it down and take it home with us. So he goes back to the cabin with my dad and I go walk back to the blind and I see in the snow that Buck had circled back and walked in front of the blind, like twenty yards from the blind within the last hour. So while we were walking his track, he came circling back and walked right past there. And I thought, Man, if we just sat in the dang thing, then you know that Buck might have circled back because we were on his track, So maybe not, but if we would just sat, we would have had a chance at a deer at deer camp up there together for the first time. And you know, you're just like, man, you never know. But we did the thing that he wanted to do, and you know, that's great. I think he had a great time and it was fun. But there's so many examples like this where I have to pull myself back from doing the thing that I think is best for the hunt or And this is something that I think I talked to you, maybe off air about but sometimes not putting them at least at this age that he's in, I'm maybe not rushing him into a high stakes situation, yeah, because they're just not quite ready, or maybe they are, but you know, it forces me to be more serious. So the thing I had happened last year is, at one point during our firearm season, I saw I scouted a mature buck using an area several days in a row that I had a couple blinds set up, like I had a child friendly hunting situation set up, and there was a four year old buck that I knew that I knew of and kind of knew his jam, but I wasn't actively hunting. But now here he's showing up and he's going past these couple of blinds I've set up in a place where like I could actually have a chance to kill this year with my five or four year old with me. And so I wasn't playing hunting this year. I was gonna give h another year. But I thought, man, this could be pretty sweet, and so I asked ever, I'm like, man, do you want to go after the wide nine? Like he's he's around, he's for some reason like active in this zone. We could actually get a crack at him, and of course, like, yeah, we're gonna go kill the wide nine. Let's do it. So I take him out that first night and get set up and like it's a pretty good situation. And sure enough, like we see him. He comes out. He comes out farther out of range than I really wanted him to be at and I decided not to take the shot because I just didn't want anything. I wanted to be perfect, Like I did not want to ruin a great season by you know, hitting a deer bad with my son watching it. And I'm not a long range shooter, as you know, Tony. So I was like, man, I want this deer within one hundred and fifty yards dead broadside, standing still, like I want everything to be perfect. But throughout the night, like I kept catching myself do the thing I mentioned earlier where I'm like, because I was so amped up to like get a shot at a mature buck with my son and have him get to be there for it. I wanted everything to go just right, you know. So I was snapping at him to you gotta whisp, you gotta whisp, You just gotta stop moving, you gotta if you're in a movie, you gotta be lower than the blind. You can't do that, can't do this, can't do that. You gotta do this right. And I kept catching myself and then that whole thing happened. Didn't take the shot. The next day, the wind shifted, but I could hunt this ground blind that I had out there about one hundred yards away that would still have us in the ballgame. And then the same thing. Now I'm even more on edge because first we are in like a more fully enclosed blind, but now we're in like a kind of really creddy old heybale blind that you know, just is kind of more exposed. And I just knew, like, man, if we do anything wrong where at eye level? Uh? Just I was even more on edge now that day and so kept finding myself, you know, just being on him about whispering, about moving about everything. And after that hunt, we actually saw that buck again that night at last light. But it was a similar thing, like just it was like right like literally like seconds until the end of shooting light. It was not like a comfortable good position for me to be shooting. I'm like, man, I just don't feel great about this. I don't want to mess anything up. But like that night that the kind of moral of my whole story is that night I thought to myself, man, we could keep going after this deer. Like he did not nowhere around. We were able to slip in and out, and he you know, had moved off at the right times, and so like we were not educating this deer. To my knowledge, the situation could allow us to get a shot at this deer. But do I really want to keep like putting my son in this high pressure situation that I'm creating for him and like making it so intense when he was perfectly happy just being out there having a good old time, regardless of whether it's a mature buck or not, you know. And so we eventually decided, like, let's just chill out. Let's just let's just relax, get back out after a dough again, Let's not make this more than it has to be. Because he was enjoying the simple thing of it. He doesn't need the big giant buck for his dad to shoot for this still to be fun. And why like risk making this a non fun thing because dad's on edge? You know? 01:19:17 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, that's I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make with you know, newbies and kids. Is when you bring some level of trophy hunt to it, it changes everything and it's just you know. That was one of the things that I noticed with my girls when I took them was it was so fun to not care. I mean, we were hunting in a place where you weren't going to see a big one anyway, probably, but you know, a spike to them was like, oh my god, you know, like that that part's pretty fun and you have to be aware of that. Like even that that that you're like, oh, I'd give him another year, whatever, is cool, he's around. Once you turn into the guy hunting that deer, then you care a lot. Yeah, you know, I mean it just changes. 01:20:09 Speaker 2: It's funny how quick that flip can switch. 01:20:11 Speaker 3: Oh dude, it it just it's different. It makes it different, and it's I don't know. I mean, we had this situation a little bit when I, like the very first night I ever took one of my daughters hunting. We were just snowed in with deer. It was the best Northern Wisconsin hunt I've ever had in my life, and we had like seven bucks come out, including a nine pointer that was like one hundred and fifty inches. Whoa I mean like a once in a decade encounter and that deer is at like forty yards and I just I was so torn because I'm like, she can't shoot that far and she doesn't really grasp what this is. And she ended up and we ended up having some does come in late. But it's man, it's just changes thing. The big buck thing changes things so much. It's a it's almost better to just take them hunting, like you said, only for doze or just in a situation where you're like, this is just an easy field edge setup or something, and you know, like you're you're probably not gonna see that big buck, and it's way more important just to get animals close, yeah, you know, just whatever they are. 01:21:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Even even another thing I've started to do is even just take them out to hunt quote unquote hunt out of season, so we're not taking weapons, Like we're just gonna go sit in the blind and just watch, dear. We're just gonna go out and call the turkeys. We're not actually trying to shoot them. But like that way, like the pressure is removed, but we can still have fun, you know, learning about the critter, watching the critter, practicing the things you need to do while you're hunting, but without me being so manic because there's no real repercussions for screw ups, you know. Like that's the way I've built in a way to like have fun out there with them practicing the hunting thing and just removing the thing that I know I will naturally like like fighting against my instincts, I'll just remove part of it. And that has been a fun thing to do. Like postseason after deer season, will still go out and like watch deer or pre season turkeys, will go out and call in spots where I'm not going to actually try to hunt, and like that's lots of times just as much fun for them. Like they're they don't know the difference. They're having a blast. 01:22:34 Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, we do that too, And not only is it fun, but it's so beneficial. Yeah, getting just getting to watch animals. I think I think that's one of the biggest problems a lot of hunters have today is it's so easy to put out some trail cameras and not you know, like long range scout. I'm not not observed deer or turkeys or whatever in their natural environment when you're not hunting them, because when you do that, you learn how they move and what they do, and you know how they get from this point to that point and how relaxed they are a lot of times, and it just is a is an education you can't get any other way, and it gives you so much confidence and it's fun to take kids doing that. But I think just generally for hunters, and I know this sounds dumb, but the more you watch those critters when you're not actively trying to kill them, the better you'll get it killing them. 01:23:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, very true. You know, something came to mind that's not directly tied to that, but it is a thing. It is one of the interesting ways that my kids have helped teach me something and it's related to watching wildlife. And what we did is we it's very simple. I mean, I know lots of people do this, but we didn't have any bird feeders or birdhouses or anything like that up up until this past winter. We put out a couple bird houses and like a little suet thing and our bird feeders and stuff like that right by the window to our bedroom in this like little area that we've kind of let turn into like a little uh wildlife zone, I don't know, like a red We kind of rewilded a little power of our yard and we're like, let the girl get grass, grow up, put a little brush pile, got a couple of apple trees, putting the bird feeders, playing some wildflowers, stuff like that. And my son especially, but both of them, well my oldest son especially, but now both of them, in a way that I never would have expected, and in a way like I never have been fascinated by have become like completely enthralled with these birds that come in, and I mean like they're obsessed, Like they get up in the morning on run to the bedroom to go see what birds are out. And we got a little spotting scope and then we got a bird identification book. And now all of a sudden, my son like this is something that I have not pushed at all, Like I have no interest in and songbirds in that kind of stuff historically. But he's like, now he's identifying every different species. And then he wanted to make a list of every different species we've ide'd and now he can tell me how to tell the difference between a tough to tipmouse and a black hatch chickadee and a red belly woodpecker versus a downy woodpecker versus affiliated woodpecker. And he's got this list of all the different birds we've seen, and he's got the book and can point them all out, and he's learning the calls and this kind of stuff that I just gloss over, like I get so focused on like the big, big, charismatic, megapaonic kind of stuff. And he's giving me this new appreciation for the little things. And so, for the first time in years, probably, I was driving down the road just past the house and I noticed a bird that we had not seen before, and I thought, that's a new bird species. I gotta look that up. And I never would have done that before, And I thought, like, how cool is that? Like my son is bringing his passion to me and teaching me something and helping open my eyes to something in the natural world. And I think that's one of the coolest things about introducing your kids to the outdoors is that they can introduce you right back into it too. 01:26:15 Speaker 3: Do you know what that story tells me, Mark. 01:26:18 Speaker 4: What's that you don't need to do a paternity test, that one's yours? Yeah, Yeah, I think everybody listening to this is like, yeah, I'm not surprised at all as the l Kenyan junior is dorking out on songbirds like this. 01:26:32 Speaker 3: This sounds about right, man. 01:26:34 Speaker 2: Yeah we saw that coming. Oh yeah man. So h so we got to wrap this one up. I've got to take my son to school, speaking of But I guess to maybe set the stage for where this is going to go next. And we're pulling some folks with more expertise than you and I, Tony to share some different ideas. But I guess a point I want to make here, And I think this came through a conversation, but I want to kind of explicitly make it. And I guess I'll say this for myself and you tell me whether this is if you think this is true or not. But I constantly feel like I still don't have it figured out, Like there's so much I still don't know yet. I still have so many questions about the right way to handle this stuff with my kids, the right way to bring them into these traditions and these pursuits, the right way to teach them. Like I constantly feel like I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm like walking around with the lights off and I'm feeling my way around and just trying to figure it out one step at a time. And and I guess I want to explicitly say that that's how I feel a lot, and it's okay if you feel that way too. Does that resonate with you, Tony? 01:27:44 Speaker 3: Oh man, are you kidding me? Wait? Dude, when they handed me two babies when I was I was like, I don't this is not this should not be like this is a mistake. I can't do this. And you feel that way all the time, and I'm you know, I always joke like with my wife, I'm like, I'm so freaking manly, how come I have two girls? You know? Like I'm like I don't know how to raise girls, Like I don't know what I'm doing, and you just figure it out. I mean, you just do. And I want to say something on this beyond that, Like if you're listening to this and you're like not at a stage where you're like I'm not having kids or for whatever reason, and you're like this this doesn't value me, or like doesn't bring value to me very much. Taking people who don't know what they're doing out there will make you better. Like whether it's your own five year old or eight year old or whatever, or if you're just taking that coworker who express an interest or whatever. When you have to think through how to get somebody who has no experience or very little experience into something good out there in the outdoors hunting white tails or whatever, you will get better. So, at the very least, if there's if this is like I'm not this doesn't resonate with me at all, Like there's like a selfish, beneficial reason to doing this, which is just you. You will become a better hunter by having to think through somebody else's process that doesn't know what they're doing. 01:29:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not even just opinion. There's like there's a lot of studies about the teaching effect in which they have They've measured the ability to like remember something, or the ability to understand a concept, the ability to perform at a high level. Is every one of those things is improved if you have to teach it to someone else. So, if you want to try to remember your ABC's or something, one of the best ways to get better at remembering your abcs is to have to not only learn them yourself, but teach them to somebody else, same thing. If you want to get better at you know, like you just mentioned hunting, one of the ways to get better at it is to have to teach someone like that is a proven thing. So yeah, absolutely, you're gonna get better because of it. I think you're gonna enjoy all this more because of it. You're gonna see new things come to light, and you're gonna appreciate things in a different kind of way. And we haven't mentioned this once, but it's also worth noting that, man, if we want to keep this thing going, if we want to keep this lifestyle going, we need to keep introducing people to it and passing on our love for it and our experiences and our lessons so that we're not a dying breed, so that there are folks fifty years from now who's still hunting fish and appreciate what we're doing and care enough about the critters and the wild places to keep them around. Two. So yeah, there's that man too, All right, my friend, tune in next week for more insights. We're gonna bring in, like I said, some interesting characters, some authors, some deep thinkers to give us some expert points of view. On all these things that will help us be better moms or dads, mentors and folks that can hopefully help foster a love for the outdoors and hunting and fishing. So thank you for listening, thanks for being a part of this one. I guess until next time, we'll just wrap it up there and keep on keeping on and stay wired to hunt.

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