00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter, and now your host Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm your guest host Tony Peterson, and this is episode number four thirty four. Today on the show, we've got outdoor writer and archery nut Jason Bosserman, and we're going to dive deep into what he considers the perfect white tail bow set up. Everybody, Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which is brought to you by First Light. I am your guest host Tony Peterson. Mark is off somewhere today and he just he sent me a text and said he's got a new saddle hunting strategy where he wants to be more limber and more flexible, and so he's down at a hot yoga slash ballet retreat. I guess he said something like that. So he's gonna be a monster in the uh the saddle this fall. I guess that's his plan. So you've got me this week. And since we're kind of in the heart of the summer and really thinking a lot about shooting and gear and and summertime scouting, I wanted to have Jason Bosserman on. Jason is a outdoor writer. He's a podcast host. He is one of the people I know who's set up probably more bows than just about anyone else out there. Really really a gear Junkie's a Western guy who has fallen in love with white tail hunting. So he takes his archery tackle seriously. And so I want to do just a total bow breakdown. Why do you do this? Why do you do that? What's your white tail set up look like? And we really get into the weeds and a lot of stuff. This is a kind of a gear centric podcast, but it also ties in summer shooting practice, how you should how you should address those things, and how it applies to being a better shot in the white tail. It's really interesting podcast. Jason is an awesome guest. I think you're gonna love it. Jase Michael, how are you, buddy? I am well, Mr Peterson, how are you doing this this wonderful morning? I'm great. I'm drinking coffee out of a frozen mug, uh, not not like a physically frozen mug, like a Disney frozen mug, and it's delicious. And I just work some dogs and now I want to talk to you about some bow hunting gear. First question though, So it's about degrees here. So is it like two d where you live? We just got Yeah, I just went outside and checked. I let the dogs out, well, and or let the dogs out. And you don't have to lie, dude. I know you're drinking out of Lila sippy cup frozen Disney. You're a Disney guy. See oh. Man, So, so is it super super super hot out there or not? It is super hot, we but we weren't. Man. We have had more rain in the last month than we've probably gotten in the last two years combined, I'd say over the last month and a half. So now it is though we we hit a hundred yesterday, We're going to hit a hundred and one today, and then we're kind of going to get into that hot dry spell that usually is June first part of July, and then hopefully we'll catch our monsoon season at the end of July. Because everything here right now is you'd actually come here and want to be here and not question why why I want to live here? Like the plains are like super green, the prairie grass is up to your calf. I mean, the river bottoms are gorgeous, The fields look good, So it's it's it's a pretty time to to live here right now, but it will be short lived. Yeah, that's uh, I've I've fallen for that trip for Yeah. Yeah, it should be good antelope hunting though for you this year with those conditions, I hope, So, yeah, it should be good. If the numbers are there, we'll we'll be fine. So we're gonna talk about white tail gear. But I had a thought earlier, earlier today. I was when I was working the dogs. You drew a sheep tag this year. I did nineteen years of applying and I drew a sheep tag. So I was thinking, I don't know how many guest marks had on this podcast. It's a lot. And I was like, I'll bet I bet Jason isn't the only one who's drawn a sheep tag on here, because he's probably had Lelakowski and some of those guys on. But I bet you're the poorest guy to ever draw sheep tag on this podcast. I am the poorest guy to ever draw a sheep tag, and it will be the only sheep tag I ever have because I'll never draw again in Colorado. Um. In my younger years, I I mean, as a struggling outdoor writer, I didn't have the money to put in in various states for cheap um. So this will be my one, one and done on sheep. But I feel very fortunate to have the tag. And uh yeah, season starts August first, and so all all preparations are being made and I'm really just I'm really excited to have have the tag drew, to have drawn the unit that I drew, and and it's gonna be a lot of fun. It's it's gonna be a blast. So you you live in arguably the flattest place in the country, how do you practice for sheep hunt? Well, um, practice shooting wise or just okay, so it's it's a little bit difficult. But what what I'm what I'm doing is just making sure that everything is everything is flying good and true, you know, obviously on flat ground, um as far as I as far as I want to shoot, you know, shooting typically out to a hundred and twenty yards, not I'm definitely not gonna shoot at a sheep and a hundred twenty yards, but just making sure that the bow and everything that that my my arrow broadhead combo is dialed in um, those types of things. And then I've actually made a few trips just to the canyon country out here, which we do have where I can practice some steep angled shots, and I've just totaled, um, you know, either a block or a small three D target, and position that target at step angles up and downhill, um, checking my third axis that sort of thing, and making sure that that everything is is spot on ready. But it is a challenge to practice those type of shots here, um, but I don't have to go too far to do it. So I've been trying to do that once a week, um without fail, and and not making an excuse not to drive the thirty forty minutes out there and not get that done, because you know, the chances of that shot being on flat ground is going to be pretty minimal. So I want to make sure that my form um, you know, bending at the waist, making sure that everything is just right. Then I'm climbing into my anchor and executing through my hinge properly. All those things have to be just right, so I don't want to leave anything to chance. So it's just like anything else, right, it's just staying discipline and making sure that you're dedicating that time and and making yourself available to go get that work in. Yeah, and you you shoot a lot anyway, you set up a lot of bows and you you're a gear head for sure when it comes to archery. But how much how much added pressure do you feel, you know, practice wise? I know, I know physically, Like for the people who don't know, you're always working out and running, and you've done Hunter Mountain marathons. You're probably not that worried about that aspect compared to a lot of people would be. But what's the pressure situation like to just not totally shank a shot on a sheep? Well, so much that I don't even want to talk about it, and I'm pissed that you put it out there in the universe. Thanks dick Um. There's no way you're going to screw up an easy shot on a sheep. Yeah. No, I you know, I a guy I know in Gunnison. Well I'm getting to know him as up where I drew this tag. His name is Connor Clark. He his dad owns a trading post there where they they trade antlers and it's an amazing store. If you're ever in the Gunnison area, like it's it's it's an incredible store. And Connor actually drew that tag last year during the late season and we got to talk and he actually sent me a video of his hunt. Heeper out along a videographer and he had the hunt video and he actually he missed a ram. I mean on the video he missed, he missed a ram, and you could just see like the devastation of thinking it was over and like it was my once in a lifetime opportunity. And you know, three or four days, I'm not sure how many days later he killed. He killed a bigger ram. Um. And talking to him, he's like, man, I considered myself Iceman and tel you're at full draw on a big on a once in a lifetime big horn sheep. So he's like, just keep that, keep that in mind. Um. So you know, I'm just trying to constantly put myself in as much pressure situations as I can while I'm shooting. Um, just you know, I'll go run, I'll lift really heavy and then um come home and shoot. Just just different things like that to just try to up the any a little bit and then just making sure right now I'm not focused on how many arrows I'm shooting per day. Um. A lot of guys will go out and they'll shoot two hundred arrows to say they shot two hundred arrows. Um. You know, yesterday I stepped out and I shot five arrows at sixty five yards. And I'm just making sure that my execution that I make the best shot that I can make for every arrow that I send, And that's my goal. That's always my goal. But I've really been honing in on that from this point forward is making sure whether I step in the backyard to shoot at twenty yards or I'm shooting at a hundred and twenty yards, that my execution from the time that I get into my bow to the time I crawl into the anchor and tell my release breaks that might fall through, that everything is just that that arrow is the best arrow that I can make. Because I I think it was General Patton that that had a quote that's really stuck with me, and I'm not sure it's him, but he said, if a man gives his best, what else is there? And so that's kind of way the way I'm going into this hunt is I'm giving my best. Physically, I'm preparing myself mentally, and I'm preparing to make the best shot that I possibly can if I'm if I earned that opportunity, and you know, at the end of the day, if I go through those things, I'm confident that that I won't botch it. Well, you know, it's it's so easy to to think about this, uh to to to accept the importance and the dedication to that tag and and the shooting, and you know, it's you know that you can't just go up and get into the mountains of sculpt a sheep all the time. So you gotta control what you can control. And I think that you know, in the white tail world, we really gloss over this aspect a lot. Like there are people who are who are you know, gear junkies who shoot a lot and they like the they like the flight of the arrow right, But we we focus so hard on scouting and finding the spot and patterning the book and finding that buck ben and doing that kind of stuff that we've kind of just like missed the message a little bit that it's it's real important to keep shooting and to get into that muscle memory situation so you can go on autopilot because you're gonna get some level of buck fever. Most of us are, especially if we're working at it hard on public land or pressure deer, and that muscle memory and that just going into the zone thing where even if your brain shuts down, you can still make it happen. That's important. It's huge, it's it's massively important. And I think that's where you have to be honest with yourself. You know, here, guys tell me all the time. You know, I don't get buck fever at all. I never get buck fever. You know. I don't know how many animals I've taken with my bow, but it's been a bunch. And if I go to shoot a dough to this day, there is an element of buck fever. What even though it's a dope that sets in and it's preparing for and being able to handle that and still execute in those situations. You can. I've always said you can. You can scout and and you know, I could know where this ram that hopefully is mine, that is living out there somewhere is gonna go and and and be, and I could know the rock he's gonna stand on and everything like that. I could do all of that, But if I can't execute and I haven't done my job in that in those terms. Then the scouting and the maps and talking to these guys that have had the tag, and visiting with biologists and looking at winner mortality and all the things that that go into to any type of hunt that I mean, they're kind of for not at that point you have the experience of that, but at the end of the day, you you have a sob story to tell rather than oh my gosh, yeah, I mean, it was an amazing experience from top to bottom, and I finished the way I wanted to finish. Um. It was a clean shot. The animal expired quickly, and you know, and that should be the goal of of whether you're holding you know, whether you have a sheep tag in your hand, or whether you're going to go out and and then your dope, then your dough herd or something along those lines. It's it's our responsibility to make sure that we're at our best when we're shooting. And I know that it's easy to get caught up in like you said, man, that the scouting and figuring that buck out and and and where his home ranges and and where he's watering and bedding, and whereas whereas you know where he's going to eat and all the different things that go into that. But you have to be able to um execute because if you do things right. You and I have talked about this before, chances are you're gonna earn your opportunity. You know, you're gonna get that shot. You're gonna get that chance. And if you're prepared for that chance, your odds of finishing the way you wanted to finish, the way you imagine finishing um in your brain, will will will come will come true, you know. And I think you have to have that visualization. You know, I visualized myself holding that ram. I visualize my arrow hitting home where it needs to be. I'm you know, you have to step away from the negativity. And they're like, oh my gosh, what if what if? Put it? As soon as you start putting that into your mind. Um, you know, things can go south in a hurry. Um. So it's an easy it's an easy thing to talk about and say, but it's a hard thing to do. Yeah, well it's it's uh, you know, when we I've I've written about buck fever and I've talked about a ton and I think you have to just accept the fact that you know that it's it's there at some level always, like you said, and it can rear its head at stupid times you don't expect, and so you just sort of learned to compartmentalize it and go, Okay, that little part that sucks, it's gonna be there. Like I I deal with this, and it always comes up at such weird times, like there'll be times where I'll see a buck coming down the trail that I've been working on for on public land. I'm like, he's like, I'm just so confident. And there'll be times where I go where it's just like this should be an easy one and They're gonna come out into this field and I'm gonna shoot them, and I will screw it up so bad, and it's just like a reminder that it it's you can think, Okay, well, I'm I am the ice man like you said, and I will never I'm not gonna shank this ever or whatever like you will, like it's coming, and it's just you don't know when. And so it's like you have to be aware that every time you do this is sort of like you know it's not the first time, but you have to understand, like, the potential for failure is there, so you have to do your part. Yeah, the potential for failure is always there, especially when you're both hunting. Um, it's Murphy's law in a lot of ways than anything that you know can go wrong will go wrong. And but it's it's being it's preparing to make sure that that that that doesn't happen to the best, to the best that you possibly can. Yeah. Uh for this for this sheep hunt, or did you set up a boast? But typically for that I did? Um, I did, just being the gearhead that I am and wanting to make sure that everything is exactly the way I want it. I have played with multiple setups, Um, but I've got everything dialed down to exactly at this point. I mean, it's June. What are we June nine, I'm less than two months away from the opener, and nothing will change at this point, you know on the cheep set up look like for you then so for me, my my cheep set up right now is I'm shooting Hoyt's venom, um and it's uh the venom thirty three, So it's a thirty three in Axel to Axel bow. It's got a it's gotta what I would consider to be a forgiving brace height. It's not too light, it's not too heavy. Um. It's got a stabilizer mount on it that I really like that that that puts weight where I need it and allows me to customize that weight. UM. And Plus I can run a backbar stabilizer. And I have that bow set up to right now where you know, speed is secondary for me. UM with this particular bow. UM, I'm shooting a micro diameter arrow, but I'm still I'm still right around grains, right right in there. And for me, UM, the smooth draw, being able to climb into my anchor um let that pin, settle and and and hold without those cans itching to press themselves into action. UM and and being able to be very balanced and controlled is what I was looking for when I set up my sheet bow. I want I want maximum control UM from start to finish. Are you using a fourteen pin sight? Are you using a single pin movie? Definitely, definitely not using a fourteen pin site. I am using I am gonna stay with my single pin spot hog hog Father slider site. And I know that's that's something where a lot of people, A lot of people can argue that, Um, but uh, for me personally, UM, a single pin site. I like that dial to the yard, making sure that I'm able to dial to the yard. Um. I like being able to have that ability too. And and plus it's for me, it's part of my shot process as a whole. Um. I know that once I get my range, you know, I go directly to my site and I dial into that yard. And that has become so ingrained in me, from white tails to elk to everything that that is just simply a part of my simply a part of my process. So I am going with the single pin site. Again, I like that dial to the yard capability. And again that's what I am, That's what I'm absolutely the most familiar with. When you think of you know, the main argument against a single pin mover is they don't want to mess around when animal comes into twenty yards and they were dialed to forty or whatever. But when you think about a sheep situation, you're most likely gonna range that sucker forty six times before you get the shot, before he stands up or whatever it's gonna be. Yeah, that that's a good choice. What do you do you set up? Then do you do you set up a dedicated white white tail bow? I do? Yep, I I well, let me rephrase that sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. This year, this year, I definitely will set up a dedicated white tailbow, just because everything right now is set up so Western oriented for me. Um that I definitely am going to set up a dedicated uh white tailbow. What's different about that? No stabilizer, No, I'm not you. I still I still am going to I'm still going to run run my stabilizer system the way that I want to run my stabilizer system. Um. However, what's different for me in in a white tail situation? And this is where I think a lot of guys might overlook or I I pull fewer pounds when I'm when I'm when I'm hunting white tails, I just do. UM. I know that my shots are going to usually be between twenty and forty yards UM, and so I'm not overly concerned with with the poundage that I'm pulling. I want to make sure that when the conditions are there worst and I'm bundled up in tons of tons of clothing and I'm trying to stay warm and I'm sitting in my stand, and those types of things that when I go and I hook onto my release, that I can that I can hold my bow directly out in front of me and bring that string straight back to reduce movement, UM, to reduce anything like that where that buck might snap its gaze up on and settle fix its gaze on me up on the stand. I want to make sure that I can come come directly back crawling to my anchor and then execute the shot that the way that I need to the way that I need to execute. So draw weight is something that I always pay very close attention to. And the only way you'll know, UM. I see a lot of guys when they go to draw their bow, even even at a local three D shoot or something like that. In there they're pointing that riser to the sky and you can just see the struggle on their faces. They're coming to full draw or they're pointing that bow almost down at the ground and then bringing you know, to to to get to full draw. And and those are tailtail signs that you're pulling too much weight. And that's standing on a range in shorts in a T shirt, UM and not shooting in you know, twenty degrees wearing tons of clothing, So you need to you need to be able to practice those things. And no, um that the draw weight is essential. Um. These bows right now they produce absolutely so much kinetic energy. Um that, I mean, what are you drawing for a weight for white tails? So right now my bow is set, my white tail bow will be set at sixty pounds. It will be but somewhere between sixty and sixty five by the time I get by the time I get everything backed out and I get my you know, my limbolts where where I want them, and they're they're set up correctly. Um, then then I'll go through and I'll hook on my digital bow scale and I'll come to full draw and I'll get that exact weight rate, weight range. But I want that to be somewhere between sixty and sixty five pounds. If it falls somewhere in there for me, I know that that's where I'm at my absolute best with that. Have you had any shoulder injuries? So yeah, I mean I have experience to shoulder injury, and for me, in my opinion, it was from overshooting and pulling pulling two too much, too many pounds when I was when I was shooting, so I was commonly pulling somewhere between seventy and seventy three pounds and testing tons of bows per year and setting up tons of bows and going through the paces of that and firing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of arrows, and that that takes its toll, I mean, that takes its toll on the body. And you know, eventually things just started to break down, and tell I experienced a shoulder injury to the point where I was wondering if I was going to be able to hunt that fall, or if I was going to have to go to a crossbow or something like that, because I simply couldn't. I mean I couldn't. I couldn't pull back thirty pounds UM. And so for me, that was when that was for me when draw weights became very critical. I did hardly paid attention to it. I shot twenty nine inch draw length, and I shot seventy pounds. And if that bow arrived from the manufacturer and I clipped on my digital scale and it was actually seventy three or seventy four pounds, that's where that bow stayed. UM. Because a lot of manufacturers will tell you that a bow will perform at its absolute peak, at its peak draw weight. So that that was something that I always had in the back of my mind. But after years of testing and tinkering withdraw weight and the advancements that have been made in bow design um from the camps to the riser to everything else, I mean, I can I can drop my bow. I can drop my seventy pound bow down to right at sixty or just north of sixty, and I can go through my paper tuning, walk back tuning, broadhead tuning process and I've noticed very little difference in terms of how that well that boat performs. So as soon as I got that out of my head um and and just focused on taking care of myself and setting up bows appropriately for for the animal I'm hunting for the weather conditions that I'm gonna be finding myself, into the clothing that I'm gonna be wearing, and realizing that putting that arrow on the mark, putting that arrow in the boiler room is the most important thing. And whether I'm pulling seventy pounds, whether I'm pulling forty five pounds, it's it's where you place that arrow yeah, that you know, the idea that they perform optimally at you know, the peak draw weight whatever that that you know, seventy or whatever that you know. I get that message, and you know they've said that to me a million times too. But it's almost if that if that were really really relevant to our infield accuracy, most bow hunters would probably be better off getting a fifty to sixty and shooting right at sixty. I would think, um, and no, no, no question about it. And I don't know, I don't know if you really remember this or not, if you were in the bow hunting game when this was like big. But I remember when I started, it was such a manly thing to try to pull like eighty pounds, you know. So when I was like fourteen and the dipshits that I was around, you know, everybody was like striving to pull as much pounded as possible. And now with what we have at so silly. And I had a I I asked you about those injuries because I had an injury from with lifting weights in I think it was, and I tore I partially tore a muscle on my shoulder and in August and was like, like you like oh what am I gonna do? And I ended up ordering a bow and that was a fifty to sixty and I think I shot fifty five pounds that year. I what I did was laid off it for like three weeks. My wife's a physical therapist and she's like, Okay, well, I know you're gonna hunt, so here's how you do this to like mitigate any more damage and maybe heal up a little bit. And I did. I was terrified because I did the least amount of shooting in the preseason that I've ever done. But I still matched up broadheads and did did that kind of stuff, and I still felt like I'm going into the field like if they get yards away, they're gonna be in trouble probably, but like you have that nagging, that devil on your shoulders, like you're gonna this is gonna be bad, dude. And I'll never forget. I went out opening night in Wisconsin because that was one of the years when Wisconsin and Minesota had different openers. Wisconsin was week earlier. Usually they fall on the same weekend. Opening night, I killed a buck, came in and I was like, Okay, I got that out of the way. Next week in Minnesota killed a buck on opening day and I'm like, Okay, now I feel like and I just I went on a tear that year. Yeah, I feel like it was partially because I was shooting a boat that was so so freaking comfortable, That's right, And that's where I was going to with with everything, especially when you were asking me with the sheep boat. So from my sheep bow to my white tail bow and anything else in between, whether I'm setting up for turkeys or anything. Comfort for me is at a premium. I want the most comfortable shooting experience that I that I can design. And when I find comfort, I usually find balance and I usually find accuracy. Um, I worry. Eighty pound limbs mean zero to me. Um, I'm not saying, guys, you know that if you want to shoot eighty pounds, you know, and you feel comfortable at eighty pounds, hey, hey, go for it. You know, there's a lot of bow manufacturers making eighty pound eighty pound limbs right now and models that were that are designed for that. But you need to be honest with yourself and find that build where you can be the most lethal bow hunter you can be. And if at any point you are struggling to get that string back or it doesn't feel comfortable and you're really having to strain and and and push that into the air and the right it's not worth it. All you're gonna do is you're gonna you know, you're gonna create injury for yourself. You're not going to be as accurate as you want to be, and you're gonna get very frustrated with how you're shooting. Is going you're not gonna shoot as much, You're not gonna shoot as often. And to do all of that to say, well, yeah I shoot seventy or eighty pounds that it's it's there's there's zero point in it. There's zero point. And if you have to take care of your body and accuracy, comfort, those things, those things are what what are what going to get animals killed? Yeah? I mean yeah, and you can shoot shoot whatever you want, but just yeah, are you comfortable? Are you enjoying it? And and understand you know, there's I talked about this a lot, like in relation to dog training. Like people think that they're going to train their you know, their lab or their GSPL summer long, and then it's it's you know it's a rock star on whatever triple blind retrieves or tripod points, and then you get out there in the field and there's a trophy and it might be ten depending on the age of the dog and the experience. You just know it's coming. And when you think about standing out there shooting at whatever range, shooting at your block target and laying them in there on the bull's eyes, you just know you're probably not going to shoot that well. When at In walks down the trail after you've been grinding it out for eight days of dark to dark sits like it's just a different world. So you've got to give yourself that chance. And the worst thing, you know, I know you've done this because you've you've shot with a lot of people and you've photographed a lot of people, is when they get you know, you mentioned way earlier that those aggressive cams and a bow that just is fighting to go off. When you see people draw and then they have that slip moment where they catch it, it's over like it's it takes him right out of the game and that shot is probably not going to be a good one. And that happens when you drawn deer sometimes and it sucks. It does suck, And i've i've, i've, I've done it in the moment that you are at full draw and then in you and that and that release hand comes forward and you creep and then you go to pull back, so too much can go bad. You're gonna punch. You know you're gonna If you're shooting a hinge that arrows ricocheting through the woods and carbon splattering everywhere. If you're shooting an index finger, chances are you're gonna panic and go ahead and just punch right through it because you've already freaked yourself out because there was movement. If you're shooting a thumb, the same thing is going to happen. So you know, That's where we talked about, like being being so comfortable in your routine and having a bow that is so comfortable at full full draw when I crawl into my anchor, I want to know that I can hold that bow until exhaustion. I want to know that when when my when I am at anchor and I'm and I'm ready to shoot, I can hold that bow until exhaustion and tell I physically can't hold anymore, and I'm the one that makes the choice to let down. I'm not gonna let the cams or the design of that bow make that decision for me. Um And and to your point, you know, it all changes again when you when it's super cold outside and you're in lots of clothing in the bucket a lifetimes coming down the trail and you know you're you're standing there and your legs are knocking in your cold. Everything, everything should revolve around comfort at that point and being able to crawl unto your anchor and know with absolute confidence that you you have control. Ye. Well, I've noticed something I really noticed this last year hunt in the late season, trying to kill one more dough here in the cities. Is you know you mentioned that, you know, hold the hold the bow out and draw straight back to your faces your test. You know, if you can do that nice and slow, It's kind of like when you go to the gym and you see somebody lifting weights. If they're throwing their body everywhere, they're they're overcome. The people who can do slow, deliberate movement or you know, mountain hunting, slow deliberate uphill with a lot of weight on your back. That's somebody who's strong and prepared. If you gotta if you really got to fling your ship around, it's and you're you're not as strong as you think. But that that slow drawback. You know, people get so worried about getting busted by white tails drawing, and because yeah, I mean, it can break a lot of different ways. It's much better to not get busted. But you know, in some situations where they're gonna hear it, they're gonna see it, something like it's gonna happen. But I've noticed even in my life just that that nice, slow, straight, straight back draw I get less. They're they're less fired up if if they bust me. So you know, if you're doing something you draw quickly surprise you or something, or you have to sky that and get more movement, you're gonna get busted worse. And all that's gonna do is take away a little bit of your brain because you're gonna go this suckers moving, he's gonna go. And if they you know, they're the One thing that I realized that happens all the time to me that I kind of have learned to mostly ignore is that there's a lot of times I'm gonna get busted drawing. You know, when I'm when I'm hunting in northern Wisconsin, those dear bust me every single freaking time. But you can still kill them. And it's it depends how bad they bust you, and you just you kind of learned to live with it. But you can mitigate some of the some of the bad bus by being able to draw your bowl better. And and that's that's exactly the case. And a good example of that for me happened last year here in Colorado, was hunting a piece of public dirt. Um it was. It was later in November. I had been really sick. Um I got I got the the COVID bug, and I was really sick. And coming off of it. It was my first evening back into a into a tree stand, and and I was I was weaker than normal and and and it probably wasn't as mentally laser focused as I normally would be. But when I got up in my stand, you know, later that evening, I had a buck. I had a buck come through, and I made the decision right away that you know, I was gonna I was gonna go ahead and shoot that buck. And just the way that I had to position my stand in that gnarled, horrible cotton wood that is so common out west. I mean, you just don't get the straight hardwoods. And I wasn't as high as I'd like to to have been, but that was my option. And when I went to draw on that buck, it was cold, um, the wind was blowing, and I was still able to bring that string straight back, and that buck did bust me. But I could just tell by the way he fixed his gaze up there it was not a bus like, holy crap, So my my internal thinking didn't shift too Oh what do I need to do now he's bust me? Is he gonna run? Is he gonna leave? He's gonna world? Do I need to let one rip? My my concentration was able to stay totally focused on where my pin was, sitting on him, letting him relax, and then going ahead and executing the shot, and and within seconds he just paid it no mind. But I didn't create a bunch of additional movement, and I would because I didn't create that additional movement, he wasn't on alert, and because I knew he wasn't on super alert, my brain didn't go into the oh crap mode. I just stayed true to everything that I was doing and that resulted in a perfect arrow. Yeah. I mean, that's one thing that you really get when you when you have enough experiences, you you understand how how much worse it gets due to the level of bust and like the level of of panic that's that's associated with how likely it looks they're gonna leave your life. Like the more that you can minimize, you know, the feeling that these suckers are gone or this this dude's gonna to bail on me quick here, the better you'll do. And it's a hard I mean, I don't that's one of this is one of those things like telling people how to fight fish like I could. I could write an entire book on how to fight small mouth and it wouldn't do anyone any good. Like they have to just go do it, and like you have to get into these situations and see and lose some of those deer and panic and miss and and this this stuff is just gonna happen and eventually kind of come to a place where like, Okay, I know how this is gonna go. And then when it shifts gears, they're like okay, now I know how there's a really gonna go And it's just it's one of those things that's so important that just doesn't get talked about much. I don't think no, and it really doesn't. And I think it's something that definitely needs to be talked about more and and considered more. Because when you go into the white Tail woods with a bow that is comfortable for you, that fills you with confidence, and that is set up properly, your success rate is going to go up because you're going to make you're going to execute better in crunch time. You're absolutely going to execute better in crunch time. Um. You know. So when I'm looking at a white tail bow in my bow build, I'm seeking a bow with a non aggressive cam system. In terms of those cams just simply designed to to for for maximum speed right um, where they're just really itching to go. I want to make sure that, um, those cams are very comfortable, that the bow feels comfortable, that the draw is smooth. When you get an overly aggressive cam system, a lot of times you won't have that smooth transition to let off. There may be a little herky jerky motion in there, and sometimes that herky jerk emotion can be enough to create that creep we talked about earlier. You might just you know, when it goes back and you hit hit your back wall, especially if that pack wall is a limb stop um and you're not pulling into the cable. When you hit the limbs and it's rock hard and it happens that quick and you're pulling with that much torque, there's there's just so much that can go wrong. Yeah, well, and we should say too. You know, I know you've You've set up a ton of bows. I've set up a ton of bows. We've been really lucky in the bow hunting industry that way. And what you realize if you get five or six bows a year and you set them up and shoot him and hunt with them, you realize that, you know, there's nothing wrong with brand loyalty, right like you you might be a white fan of Matthews fan whatever, I don't I don't care, but no, nothing, not no bow company is producing the same thing year to year. And so even if they have a reputation for being a killer white tail bow or a killer Western bow or something, you really got to shoot them because it's that's one thing that always amazed me how different you know, a bow model from one manufacturer would be from you know, the flagship from one year to the next, and how much I might like or dislike it, or how one company who I'm like, I've every time I shoot the bows, I don't really like it, and then I'll shoot one and I'll be like, I really like this one. There's a there's a lot to it, and it's it is really a matter of getting into a pro shop and and spending some time with them and being serious about it. Because when you get that one that that works for you, it's really nice, like you said, and when they're set up, well, you know there's something that goes on there. We've been dealing with this and on the dog side of things a lot with with these pandemic pups. You know, everybody getting a puppy last year or adopting dogs and then not getting them socialized very well because we were in a lockdown, and you know, you weren't. You weren't out and about with people in in new situations. So we have a lot of dogs that are like a year old now that have a lot of problems. And what happens is if you don't socialize them right away. When they're eight weeks old, ten weeks old, they're they're not as much fun to be around, and so you tend to keep them home more and exact abate that problem. If you've got a bowl that's not very accurate, not shooting very well, or you don't like shooting it, you're gonna shoot less and that's gonna hurt you. You are. And on the other side of things, if you get one that you really enjoy shooting and it's fun and you can you can lay them in there, you're gonna shoot more. You are. And the thing is is what you said. I tell guys this all the time is pro shops are there for a reason. Um, whether you like to set up your own bow. I set up all my own bows from from start to finish, top to bottom. But um shoot getting to shoot, whether you're loyal to whatever manufacturer. Manufacturers have done a great job of building different flagship bows or different budget bows. You have a whole line. And if you get into that pro shop, and that pro shop is worth its salt, they're gonna let you shoot just a ton of different bows, and you're going to start shooting them, and you're gonna find one or two that you're like, Oh my gosh. From start to finish, that was silky smooth. From start to finish. It just felt right. The grip fell into the palm swell area. I crawled into my anchor perfectly. The shot broke just the way I should The arrow was right where I wanted it to be. Um, the draw cycle was smooth. You're gonna find that bow. Um. But if you just go you know, read inc on a website or a magazine article or anything like that and go, oh, yeah, that's the boat, that's the boat for me. I want that bow, and you go in and your heart is set and you're dead set on that boat, right, Um, you're not making the best informed buying decision that you possibly can. I mean, I think about it. Last week. I told you I went and got a new truck, and I didn't buy the first truck that I drove. I had my mindset. I wanted to dodge Diesel since I was since I was a kid, and besides the fact that they're a bazillion dollars. Um. I I drove two of them, and I tried to force myself to like them. I tried to force myself to ignore the noise that I heard and the rough ride, and then I went back to the Chevy dealer and I Tom the GMC and I went for a cruise, and I'm like, this is it, and it's the same thing. Don't fight it. If you're in a pro shop and you had your mind set on this bow and you said I'm getting this particular bow. When I go in there and you shoot that bow and it does not feel like the boat is for you, then that is not the boat for you, And don't fight that decision. Just say, hey, okay, I tried it. I'd like to try this model from this same manufacturer. That's fine. I want to try this model because the more you do that, the more you up your odds of finding the one that gives you the perfect test drive from top to bottom. So, speaking of contentious topics, you're still you're still a believer in stabilizers, huh, even in the white Tail Woods. I am a believer in a state babilizer. And there's multiple reasons for being a believer in a stabilizer. Okay, So I know everybody's gonna say, yeah, shoot, I said earlier shooting to twenty to forty yards, right shooting from twenty to forty yards, which is most white tail shots is that I've experienced, are gonna between twenty and forty. My western shots can be a little bit longer where balance comes at more of a premium in terms of where a stabilizer with an offset um, experimenting with different weights on the front end and and the back end of those bars um is maybe a little bit more important. But a stabilizer, I always tell people, if you're gonna put a five inch stabilize rubber stabilizer on your bow that wiggles when you can bend it and wrap it around your riser um, that is not a stabilizer. Okay, that that's piece of that stabilizers doing one thing. It's it's a noise and vibration device. It is not a stabilizer. A stabilizer is meant to it's in the world. It's meant to stabilize you. And so when I put a stag bilizer in my bow and I spend time tinkering with weights, you want to pick a stabilizer with a good system that allows you to to to take weight on and off of that stabilizer, because you're going to find a point where when you pull back at full draw, that bow sits like a well trained retriever. That bow just sits there and it will hold better on target um. When you don't have that stabilizer, you have weight out front. You've got your site. A lot of white tail guys, I mean myself included, I shoot a dovetail site. I my sites out front. You have weight out in front of your riser, and so that stabilizer helps with that a lot. And now you won't know it unless you try it. You won't know the full benefit of a good stabilizer system unless you try it. As far as noise and vibration, you don't need a stabilizer. These bows are too quiet. Don't don't if you don't want one and it doesn't feel comfortable to you again going back to comfort, that's fine. You you don't have to run a state bilizer. I'd rather see a guy not run a stabilizer than put a four inch or five inch stabilizer on the front of his bow that was built for no other purpose, because you don't need the noise vibration if you're shooting a good set up your arrow is heavy enough those types of things, that arrow is going to absorb the energy. You're not going to get the noise in vibration. But to be as accurate as you possibly can be, which I believe is essential from the Western woods to to the white tail woods. A stabilizer, A stabilizer system. And I say system, and that doesn't mean you have to run a backbar. It doesn't mean you have to run any of that stuff. But a system that you are confident in that will that will produce for you and give you added confidence and balance that bow and allow you to hold a steadier and let that bow aim. You're You're you're gonna up your odds of success. In my opinion, you should have seen. So where this comes from is I've just gotten to the point where white to hunting. I don't have a stabilizer on my boa rising freaking polls every time I see a picture. It drives a lot of people nuts. And I brought it up to Mark when we were out in Montana recently filming some YouTube stuff, and I was I kind of like jokingly like said, oh, you gotta gotta stabilizer on your way. Tobebo and he the way he looked at me. He's like, well yeah, and he's like, you don't use a stabilizer. I was like no, and he just looked at me like I was the worst ever. Yep. Well here's here's the thing though. I mean, you're confident in it, right, So again everything goes back to confidence. So if you're if you're if you're not happy with the stabilizer on your bow, if you feel like it's adding too much weight. You know, a lot of guys are really concerned about weight. Um. I like a heavier bow for me, The heavier the better. When I'm done with it, a heavier bow means a steadier hold for me from from from east to west, it doesn't matter. Heavier bow equals a steadier hold. Um. But if you just don't like the feel, so much of archery is feel, and if you don't like that feel, then you can take that stabilizer often experiment with it, because like I said, it's it's not doing you any purpose if it's not being used as a stabilization device. If you just have it on there to cancel noise and vibration, just get it off of there, because you're just adding a necessary weight in terms of if weight is an issue for you as far as feel yeah, well, and I should say, you know, I went through a long period of my life where I shot a lot, especially before we had the girls. I shot a lot of long range stuff, and I realized, you know, shooting in the wind and shooting you know, just different conditions. I was like, I know, there's times where I knew a stabilizer was helping me. If I was stretching out beyond forty yards, I knew it. I could tell. And you know, the same thing with certain kind of releases, and same thing with a certain amount of wind. You know, wind really started to affect me forty and beyond. And so as I kind of got out of that stage and couldn't shoot as much because I had little kids and just more stuff to do, my my range kept creeping in, creeping in, and I'm like, you know, I'm a forty and undershooter now, and I just couldn't find enough difference to justify the kind of stabilizer I knew I would actually need to help me shoot better. And so it was kind of like, you know, if I'm shooting white tails at twenty yards and my bow is quiet. I'm like, I don't need this, and I know people all people all the time, they roll their eyes. I'm like, I don't know, it just works for me. Okay, So but the the the this question has to come into play too. How many white tail guys. I mean, I saw more hunters out west last year than I've ever seen. More. Hunters are expanding their adventures right They're coming west in search of mule, deer, pronghorn, elk, everything like that. And they don't want to set up multiple bows, but they they you know, they just want one solid bow. And when you start tinkering and changing things in terms of weight on your bow, it changes an entire feel. So for someone like you when you come here to hunt antelope, I've noticed you don't have a stabilized and I've remembered a few yards of you shots past forty that maybe didn't go as quite as planned. Is that possible? Is that would be fair? When I fair? To be fair, I've been told that it was going to be a slam dunk out of a blind at close range. I knew that was coming, I said, walked right into it. Yes, But chaos, chaos and sues on the prairies as you know, with transla hawks and thorns and scorpions and rattlesnakes, So you should expect and just knowing me that I'm an idiot, that we're probably going to be slipping around the cactus trying to slip an arrow into a prong horn and the SHOT's going to be beyond forty. So guys, need you're right. And I will say that I do. I drew in any deer tag in North Dakota this year, and I do have a stabilizer on my boat. Okay, so you now have a stabilizer on your boat. So my question to you is how long is that stabilizer on your boa? It's long enough and it's no enough. Yeah, you'll be very you'll be very pleased when you see my California whether two and a half year old uh mule deer. You're gonna be like, yes, okay, are you running a backbar system with an offset or anything like that or you just running a straight front stabilizer, just a straight front perfect yea. And again that's that's that's why manufacturers make these different types of stabilizers um so that you can play with those different types of stabilizers. And you know, I feel like I'm probably beating a dead horse here, But it all goes back to comfort and what you feel most comfortable with. And if you take your time and play with different settings with your bow, whether that's moving your site closer in towards the riser or moving your site out um on the riser, whether it's you know, take shooting with your quiver on or shooting with your quiver off, or finding a quiver that hugs the riser tightly. Everything you do, you should have a purpose for doing. And the more you spend, more time you spend testing and tinkering and and and looking at these types of things, the more confident you're gonna be in your final bow build. And when you're confident your final bow build, you're gonna be a confident archer. Yeah. Um, should we talk should we talk arrows a little bit? Maybe? What is your what are your white tailed arrow way in it? My white tail arrows right now? So so my white tail arrows weigh and right at about four five grains their eastern five millimeter um full metal jacket. Um. I love the I love the aluminum for reduced friction passed throughs and they hit like a ton of bricks. U. My kinetic energy rating is right where I wanted to be. They have a good foc as far as front of center that I've taken the time to set up. Um. And so my white tail arrow is is actually heavier UM than my western arrow um. And I have reasons for that. And people will object and and and but that's what makes archery fun is is you can spend. You can spend things I want um. But again, it all goes back to what I've had the most success with and what I believe to be true. So my white You're concerned their trajectory, well, I mean, for me, a heavier arrows quieter. I'm a firm believer that I don't think these white tails. I don't think these deer hearing the bow go off um. And a lot of guys will say that is lately wrong, and it might be completely wrong. They there are some bows that got but I think they hear the arrow, That is my opinion. I think that they are hearing and reacting to the arrow and flight, and a heavier arrow is going to be quieter in flight. I mean it's I've I've proven it to myself with high definition microphones. So I like a heavier arrow in terms, you know, for for white tail. And because I'm shooting usually between twenty and forty yards, I'm not that concerned with things like drop. Um. I'm I'm usually shooting in in in a confined space with a lot of trees and things like that, so I'm not concerned as concerned about Uh, There's just a lot of things that go into it. A heavy arrow will will reduce wind buck and things like that. But a heavy arrow for me just is perfect for white tails. I like to be right around that four seventy mark to be honest. But I mean, isn't it you know, saying that they don't hear the bogo off. You know that they hear the bogo off sometimes, but sometimes they that heavier arrow. You know, the noise of a bow going off is vibration going somewhere not into your arrow, And the heavier the arrow, the more vibrations going in there. So it's all tied together. But I think I don't entirely disagree with that. I do wonder, especially like I think that broadhead choice has a huge impact on the sound of an arrow, and I know, you've I know, you've stood next to people who shoot like vented broadheads, and so I think I think cutting down every bit of noise everywhere is a solid choice. Yeah, And I don't want to overlook bo noise because, like I said, bose, I mean that is that is something Some bows produce more noise than others others. I just like to make sure that from top to bottom again, that my my setup is as quiet as possible. And when you get a really lightweight arrow that's sizzling and you get um, you know, a vented uh fixed blade on the front end of that, you're you're going to create You're going to create more noise. I mean, you just are that arrow is going to be louder in flights. I mean if you stand at a you know, safe place down range where there's a wall or something like that. I've been in pro shops where you know, you're separated from the counter by just one you know wall that you can hear through very easily, and guys are in there testing broadheads and stuff like that, and you'll hear an arrow go and you'd be like, oh my gosh, wow, that was extremely loud. And then you know me being me, I've got to go in there and see, like what's going on. And nine times out of ten it's a guy shooting a flamethrower with an ultra light arrow with a minimum g p I rating for grains per inch four that will work for that boast safely, and shooting a large fixed plate broadhead with vined blades um and then those types of things are just going to amplify the amount of noise that is created. Yeah, well yeah, And if you think about it, this kind of goes back to our comfort and drawing situation. You know, when when a buck walks in, you might have three mistakes. You can make little sound mistakes, and the first one might be here and you draw. The second one might be if if you get three, the second one might be that bow going off, and the third one might be that arrow coming at and things start to fall apart. If you get three, you might only get to You might only get one. And so addressing all that stuff is important. And man, I know you know this because you photographed people shooting a lot and you've been around him a lot. I was just blown away, not only by some of the vented broadheads that you're talking about how loud they are. I mean it's like a loud whistle. But also just the differences in bows sometimes and you know, back when people you don't see this a lot anymore, but people still do it once in a while. That the rubber a liner for a peep site. Yeah, you stand next to that, Holy cow, it's so loud. Yeah, it's very loud. Yeah. And so there's something too having somebody stand next to you and shoot. That's important. Yep, it's very important. And another thing I would recommend to is if your bow sounds loud to you when when it when you shoot, it probably is um. And you know, if you want to set up just take a standard video camera, set it up. If you're shooting at thirty yards, set that video camera up at fifteen and make sure everything is really quiet. Pick a real you know, a day where the wind is nothing and it's really calm, so you don't get anything else, and shoot some different arrow combinations and then go back and play them and you will hear. You will hear a significant difference. Another great way to do it is you know, standing it as safe. And when I say safe, I mean I always want something between me and that arrow, UM as far as a wall or some some something like that. UM, don't ever put yourself in harm's away. But you can get and listen to a buddy's arrow, or have them listen to your arrow as it's passing, and they'll you know, many times I've come out and been like, man, whatever you just shot is what you need to go with um, or come out and said, wow, what was that? You know, and then you start looking at the build of that arrow, in the build of that bow, and then if the answer becomes very clear of why that was so loud, Yeah, Well, and we should say this too, you know, like you mentioned this before. Yeah, obviously most people listening to this are gonna have one bowl, right, so get the right one. And obviously people listening to this aren't gonna have multiple multiple errow options. So just as like a sort of as a guideline to all of this stuff we're talking about, at least personally me and I know you do this too. I just always go heavier. I air on the side of heavier. And and you've you mentioned this earlier about you know, I forget about speed. Who cares? And you know, up up the you know, go get on the right side of spine first, you know, make sure you're make sure you're working with that, and make sure you're working with something that that weighs a little bit more, and you forget about that chronograph, forget about how if if you're worried about aero speed, just lie, Just tell people you're shooting three forty and it's awesome. Nobody cares. But but air on the side of heavier, you're gonna get You're gonna you know, you'll get better penetration, you'll get a quieter bow. The whole the whole thing just works out generally better. Yep, from top to bottom. And in one thing I wanted to touch on two that we we we kind of we we kind of touched on it, but we tiptoed around a little bit too. Is for those guys setting up one bow, you know, going back to comfort being at a premium, especially with the cam system and the overall build of the bow. Um, how many times have you held on a white tail and held on a white tail and held on a white tail a lot? Right? Um, I've held on elk until I when the boat went off. I honest to God, don't know how how I hit him because I had held so long. And you need to be able to do that. Um, you need to be able to hold that full draw. And one of the things you need to practice is doing that. Go outside when you in, you know, pick a shooting day, pick a shooting session. I always give myself goals when I go out to shoot, but make your goal for that day to hold. Have somebody stand there, start a timer on a stopwatcher, a cell phone, and you hold that bow until you cannot hold it anymore. Don't shoot the arrow and go ahead and let down, and then have them give you the time. Yeah, I'll bet it will shock you because you'll think your this has been three minutes and it's been seconds. Yeah, yeah, it feels like forever. But um, and then gradually you know you you can build up um your strength and stamina by doing that. But only if you have a bow that will allow you to do that. Um. You need to realize that there's gonna be lots of times in a hunting situation where you're gonna where you're not gonna just draw back everything. The stars are gonna align, You're gonna put your pin there and the animal's gonna stop perfectly and you're gonna shoot and boom. It took from top to bottom. It took seven seconds. You know, there's gonna be a lot of times where it's the exact opposite, and that that that that bucks staring up at you, or he all of a sudden quarter two and you need for him to go back to a broadside or quartering away position, or that bull comes in and catches draw for a minute and he's just frozen staring at you at a full frontal at thirty two yards, and you have to hold through those moments. So again, you've got to have a bow that allow you to do that, and you have to practice being able to do that too. Yeah, I know this drives you nuts. But when you hear people say, you know, I held on that I drew and I held back at full draw for three minutes before I got that shot, I'm like, yeah, you mean one seconds, yep, And I've done it as far as I stroke me so nuts that like on a lot of outdoor television shows and stuff like that, guys are like, man, I held for two and a half minutes. You know, all actually rewind it with our TV technology. Now check it on my cell phone and it was eighteen seconds. You know, it just feels like that in the moment you're hyped up, your adrenaline is pumping, muscles are starting to break down, the shop process is starting to break down, and the urge to bail out of that shot and everything else starts to creep in. And you have to be able to stay poised and stay steady and remain at full draw and just continue to execute the best you can to give the to put the best arrow out there that you can every shot. Yeah, and that and that that urge to bail out, like you said, is where a lot of quartering two shots get taken and a lot of questionable shots because it's like I gotta get this over, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to let down or shoot, and people get in the mindset that I gotta shoot, and that's when a lot of that stuff really breaks bad. Yep, and and something else. I know it might not be on the full gear topic here, but one of the things I want to recommend to people, especially with shooting, is you're preparing for white tail season or whatever you're preparing yourself for shooting, wise, come to the understanding and know right now that you're human and that you're gonna have days where you go out and shoot. You might shoot lights out one day and you might feel like, oh my gosh, everything in the world that gets and gets in front of me this year is in trouble. You may go out the next day and be like, this just isn't going well, it's not feeling right. I'm not executing right. Put the bow down, don't sit there and shoot two d arrows to say you shot two hundred arrows and develop bad habits. Let it go mentally, walk away from the situation. Mentally, I mean, you look at the greatest athletes in the world. You look at the Tom Brady's, you look at the you know, U Saining Bowld, Michael Phelps, whoever you want to look at some of the greatest of all time. Every one of them has poor performances. Every one of them has a bad day every now and then, and you're going to be no different as an archer. You're going to have those bad days, and if you're out there, don't fight it. Don't fight the mental game, don't fight the physical game. Don't start changing things within your setup, and they can all my draw links too long, or well I need to switch arrows, or this release I should go to a hand durin index or this or that. Stay true to what you have and what has proven itself well for you, and just realize I'm having a bad day. Put the bow up, go play with your kids, go play with your dog, go fishing, get away from it, and then pick it up again. Because that's the best medicine you can you can do for yourself, shooting wise, mentally wise, everything. Yeah, And that's that's why you give yourself lots of time to get in the groove over that's right, months and months, and you don't pick up the bow on September first, when the openers two weeks later, and that that that idea of walking away, that's a hard one. It's a hard one to realize how important it is. But there's a reason if you're you know, I always say this about people who miss miss a big buck at twenty yards when they're like, oh man, I was just lights out on the range, and I'm like, yeah, something was different. What was it like? And when you think about if you can go out and you're laying them in there and you're having a great time target shooting, and the next time you go out, you suck and you get angry right away. You've got something else going on. You shouldn't be there, and it's time to just put it down and go back. Because we see the same thing with dogs all the time, where a dog will be just on fire, just everything's just tight one day, and then the next day they're not into it, and it does not do you any good to force them through it because they're not going to get better. It's only gonna get worse. That's right, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And then you have a whole new slew of problems. Then things like target panic will start to creep in. You'll start questioning everything that you do. It's better to just walk away from it for that for for that period of time, resume it again the next day, get your mind right and go back after it and realize that it was just you. You're human. It happens um you've hunted, you've hunted mountain lions, elk, all the western stuff, You've you've hunted white tails a lot. What what is it? And a guy living in Colorado like you, with the options that are there every year, various tags you can get and you know the close proximity states. What what is it about white tails that hooked you? Well, I'll say hooked in a big way because I haven't hunted mule deer here in eight years. It has been eight years. I have some of the best mule deer hunting that anyone could ask for twelve minutes from my house and I haven't put in for mule deer tag in eight years. And the reason for it is is I love the whole process that is white tail hunting. I love I love everything about it. I love hanging the stands, I love trim and shooting lanes, I love hanging cameras, I love scouting. I love watching bucks on an alfalfa field. Um. And for me, being able to hunt that animal for a long period of time throughout different phases of their of the cycle from September through December and see how things change and be out there to experience that and is second is it's it's the best. I mean, it is the it is the absolute best. And so for me that is what is fun. And I don't think personally as a bow hunter. We bow hunt for a challenge in my opinion, I love the challenge of bow hunting, and I don't know that there's a bigger challenge than killing a mature white tail buck. You have to be on your a game. Everything has to be right or you just have to get stupid, dumb lucky. And I don't get stupid dumb lucky very often. I'm an unlucky person as it is, and so I have to make sure everything is right if I'm gonna and and killing killing any any white tail for that matter. UM. I just I just like the draw of it. I like how adaptable they are as a species. I mean, we have them on the prairie out here. I've seen him in the canyon country standing next to mule deer out here. I love their adaptability. UM. I love their aggressive nature when they rut. UM. I love that they're susceptible to food patterns. UM that you can put a lot of work in that water plays such a huge role, um figuring out weather patterns, moon phases. To me, it's the education part of it and being a continual learner in realizing that when it comes to that species, I I know nothing. I I think I know a lot, but I know I know very little, and that's that's exciting because I mean there's always room to grow and get better. Um, and that's an any hunting, but as a white tail hunter, I really feel like there's so much to learn and get better at that will make you a more accomplished white tail hunter. Is there? Is there a part of it? Since you're you're born and raised in Colorado, and Colorado is the destination for non residents for elk right now, and just you know, obviously antelope and and mule deer as well, but elk is the big thing. Is there part of this, this white tail obsession? Is it? Is it kind of one of those things out there where you know, a lot of Western states there's the keynote species and white tails pretty bottom of the barrel. It doesn't get as much attention. Is part of it? Just the fact that you've got an animal there that's not getting as much attention as the elk in the meal there and you can kind of go work them and do your own thing without constant people around you. Yeah, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that it's not because it is. I mean, white tail take I mean every every deer tag in Colorado. We went to an all draw system across the board for deer. You cannot get in over the counter tag for deer, and I think it's been gosh, it's been a grip of time. I can't tell you how long. Um. But every year there's white tail tags that are left over. I mean for rifle, there's there's tons of white tail tags left over because it is a secondary deer species, and a secondary species when it comes to Colorado. In the West and where I live, I have great access to white tails and very few people that want anything to do with them at all. So pressure is down, numbers are up, and it's a great time to be a western white tail hunter for that. For that reason, UM, so I paid very close attention to that. UM. I didn't see another hunter hunting public land where I hunted last year. Now I do hunt a lot of private land here close. But the tag I drew last year was a list beat actually it was a list beach tag. Hydrow it on my third choice and it was public or nothing in that unit. So I hunted public land and I hunted hard from October until the end of November when I killed my buck minus the little COVID break. I didn't see one other hunter on public land. I didn't see a tree that had had a stand in it. I didn't see boot tracks, I didn't have people bumbling into a setup or guys parked in the parking area. When I showed up, it was like hunting private land, and the the the animals on that on those public tracks acted like animals that we're on well managed private land because they hadn't experienced pressure. Um So I got to served. You know, that's a lot of fun when you get to observe dear behavior the way they're supposed to act when they're not being pressured. Um So that's a big part of it for me and I and I can't speak to a lot of other Western states, um, but I know Colorado um white tail wise, it's it's it's a secondary deer species. Yeah, well, and that's I just did a piece about this where you know a couple of situations where public land for white tails hunts better than private land. And it's there's such a pervasive mentality out there that you always got to get on private ground to have the best deer hunting possible. And one of the one of the examples I gave was, you know, it's it's changing with Western white tails now to some extent because some of the states like North Dakota are really popular and people have their keyed into that velvet hunting so that it's leveled off somewhere. But there's still an element of you know, if you're in the state that has six, seven, eight, ten big game species that you might draw in a given year, the white tails usually not going to be super high on the list for a lot of people. And so those public land situations can be really, really good because people are looking for other stuff. Yeah, they can be money, I mean. And with lots of Western states going, I mean, we've seen walking access in my neck of the woods just increased. Montana has the block Management program where a lot of these areas where white tails dwell are being opened up. You know, landowners are opening up um their property to the state Game and Fish and they're working together to create more access for hunters. And as that access is created, um, you know, guys and gals get a lot more opportunity. Um. I know, right here in my little neck of the woods two years ago, there was no walking access, zero you could not find walking access. We had some state land, but no walking access. Right now, I would say there is anywhere between seventy and eighty thousand acres of prime walking access, and of that of the at acreage, all of it is white tail. Now, there will be mule deer there too. There you might find some elk, roman a river bottom or a bear, you know, those sorts of things. But when you look at it as a as a big game hunter and you start looking at where my neck of the woods and start looking at those types of things, you say, well, that's white tail habitats. Um, that's getting opened up. Um. And it's yeah, I mean it's something that everybody should consider. Um, the seasons out west or you know, they're long. We have a we have a very extensive, very extensive seasons where you can chase these deer and and experience them at different points, um where where they are susceptible. I mean, it's it's it makes it really neat. Yeah. Well at that point there of you know that that being white tailed ground with you know, the potential for some random you know, some small population mule deer, small population elk whatever. Nobody's going to those places to hunt elk. Like maybe a local might get keyed in if they spot something, but no dudes loading up in Texas and driving up there and going, this is my elk spot there, They're just not gonna happen. And you see this too. I've seen this sometimes when I'm hunting western white tails. Is even on national forest national grasslands where there are viable populations of other species and people are drawn once in a lifetime elk tag or their meal deer hunting or something. They're they're not usually going and messing with those little concentrations of white tails along the bottoms and the rivers. And so even if it feels like there's a lot of people around you, if they're not targeting white tails. Where white tails live, you can have one hell of a hunt, even if they're the surrounding areas getting hit pretty hard. With other pressure, you can, you absolutely can. And And one other thing not to not not to get too concerned about because I've done a lot of walk in hunting in Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado. Um, you know a lot of guys will say, well, I don't want hunt white tails there because I know those areas are being opened up for bird hunters too. You know, there's there's dub seasons going on, there's quail, there's pheasants, there's guys accessing river bottoms and creeks for ducks and geese, ag for geese. That sort of thing. You know, that sort of thing is not something that you in my opinion, that you that you really need to that you really need to worry about. Yeah, you can pay attention to where guys are at and stuff like that, but it plays such a small role um in the over in my experience, Um, yeah, I've had a pheasant hunter walk through, um, you know, but then twenty five minutes later, I've had four dos and a buck walk through. I mean, you just you just don't know. Because a lot of these Western deer are traveler there. They're they're big time travelers. Um. Because there's a lot of areas where, you know, they don't have a fifty acre block of timber that is instant that they can just stay in and run circles and live there. They they have very lots of areas that are very open. They change betting areas constantly. They move a lot, they get bumped, and they'll follow a pinch point for miles along a creek and then be somewhere completely different and be there for a while. So you know, don't get too caught up in thinking that you know, oh gosh, you know, a bird hunter walk through and I'm done for the day. Just put stay put in and and you know, know that there's deer out there, and they're they're moving, especially you know during those rut times, and and and you'll you'll have success. Yeah. Well, and if as somebody who hunts pheasants a lot with dogs, I can tell you that deer are very tolerant of you if they think they're hidden, they you know. And and honestly, you know, observing general hunting populations as far as as bow hunters for white tails or pheasant hunters, most people I see on public land are not working that hard. There's the there's sort of this message out there in the hunting media that if you're hunting public land, you're busting your ass, and it is just not true. There are people out there who are, for sure, But a lot of times when you if you looked at a you know, if you pull up on X and you look at a spot and you're like, okay, well there might be pheasant hunters in there. You can pretty much call your shots on where they're going to be, like you know where they're gonna hunt, and so okay, yeah, maybe maybe don't throw on the gilly suit and sit right in the middle of the c RP because that's probably where they're going to end up. But you can kind of predict that stuff. And no, and it is you know, I mean, this stuff's multi use, like you're gonna deal with other people coming in for other things, but those deer are pretty used to that and they know how to avoid them. So okay, what are you gonna do? How are you going to get to where the deer going to be when those pheasant hunters run through there? Yep? Absolutely, And I you know, I've seen it a bunch too, where I watched a buck two years ago, Um got bumped out of a little tamarack thicket. UM buy some some peasant hunters. They were pushing the creek bottom. I was in a tree stand about half a mile away. I was glassing them because I wanted to see what they were doing, how they were gonna use the terrain that sort of thing. How close that I thought they might get to me? And I watched him kick up this hundred thirty in white tail, and that buck literally ran along the edge of the creek for maybe fifty yards, went down in the creek across the creek, came up almost parallel to him on the other side. They never saw him, and he walked back towards their direction and rebetted, and not in the same spot, but on the other side of the creek. In in the whole grand scheme of things, that buck didn't move two fifty yards from where he got bumped. And so thinking about that, if you weren't there and you were hunting deer where those guys happened to go through, and you you know, you weren't there in the morning, if that was a morning sit and you were planning an evening hunter or something like that, nothing nothing bad really happened. You're gonna go in there. That buck is still gonna be within that two hundred or three hundred yard radius where you are sitting, and when he gets up and moves for the evening or goes to food whatever, you know, you can't over you can't overthink those types of things. And and like you said, that buck, who knows how many times he got bumped out of that tamarack patch by a bird hunter or a farmer coming in to check cattle or whatever. I mean, I think I don't know if this is true or not, but I kind of think that's one of the benefits of hunting public land white tails is because I've seen that happen many times to where it's like they if they reacted the way we kind of give them credit for, like, oh, that buck's gonna be out of here, and he's not coming back for a long time, Like, they don't do that. Like they get bumped a lot. Like if you if you look at some of these properties around my house here in the Twin Cities between just the people up you know, with their dogs, hunting, woodcock hunters whatever. Yeah, thin get bumped all the time. They always come back. Yeah, there's a lot you can do with that and realize that those spooked here, they're not that bad. They're gonna come back around, like you said, And when you observe them in those situations, you see how they really function versus what we think. So it's so fascinating to to get like to get those lessons that teach you, Like I always thought they did this, and then I got to actually watch a buck get bumped in this situation and see his entire reaction to that, and see how how much less drastic it was. That stuff so cool. It's very cool. It's very cool to observe. And and a lot of times our perceptions are so far off, you know, to what we think, you know, to what we think happened and would actually happened. So you know, it's just sometimes, like we've talked about this before, you can be your own worsten to me out there. I talked to Mark about that all the time. I'm like, what we think we know, that's the enemy. I don't think he believes me, but I'm gonna convince him yet. Yeah, And it's true. I mean, it is the enemy because it changes our whole mindset and it can change our entire game plan about how we're going to go about things. I mean, I've seen I've had lots of buddies be like, you know, I'm not going to go out this evening. Uh. You know, the rancher called me and a guy drove through there, and you know, they were wrangling up the horses on there, and I'm just I'm not even gonna go out now, it's not even worth it those deer two miles away. Uh. You know, you can, you can convince yourself of a lot of things, but if you're not out there, I mean, and when you do go out there, like you said, and you witness some of these things, and you see how those deer react to pressure, and you're like, whoa, that's so much different than what I thought that they would do. Or you know, it opens your eyes to a lot of things, and it it helps you, um not overthinking a lot of times. Yeah, I mean I had back to back years I had situations. One one was on public here in the Cities where I had a woodcock hunter. I was watching a doll way out in the field. I had a woodcock hunter push it right to me and I killed her. And then the next year I had a doe and two funds come down go out and do a field. This was on private and then I heard that chug of a four wheeler goddamn it came in push that doll right in front of me and I shot her. And you know last year that buck I killed in in Iowa down there on public land, I bumped that buck out of his bed, he ran away, and I killed him an hour and a half later when he came back. You know, like exactly. It's it's real important to to see that stuff happen and experience it because it changes your entire outlook forever, because you go, this is not yeah, you know, you jump them, they might not come back right like, you might not ever see him again, but it's not a foregone conclusion that it's going to go that way. And a lot of times we give these deers so much credit, especially Bucks, and be like, oh, they're like supernatural and they have a sixth sense and there's no way he's coming. I'm like, he lives there, he said, this is a rabbit with antlers that lives there. That's his home. He's coming back, And yeah, he might get a little bit a little bit trickier around that area to figure out, but it's not he's not hopping over to the next section. If they did that every time you jumped him, they would all die as year and a half old because they'd be an unfamiliar territory constantly yep, yep, And they don't want to put themselves in that position. And you know it, it was neat for me last year. A guy in Nebraska that I know, not not that my buddy Tearing that I always hunt with, but one of his buddies. He has a he has a just a great farm out there, and he shot this year twice during archery season. He shot him once in October, and shot him again in November, and killed him with a rifle in December. And that was on like fifty acres. That buck never left there, and he had been shot twice with an arrow, survived and got killed opening morning a rifle. So to say, like, you know, oh my gosh, I never I'm never going to see that buck again. He's going totally nocturnal. He'll never he'll never be a day walker again. Yeah. Man, No, I don't buy it. I just have seen too much. I've heard too much. I mean you just yeah, yeah that. I was thinking about that when I was I was doing an interview the other day. Um, when you start hunting public land, or you start hunting a lot of pressure, dear, it's amazing how often when you butcher them you find a you know, a muzzleta hole in, or an old broad head, or they've got some kind of serious wound to them. Yep, yep, they do that. They'll they'll have some, but like you said, a lot of them they have a home and that home is what they're most familiar with, and that's that home is where they feel the most comfortable. They know how to they know every nook and cranny of that area, as opposed to, like you said, wandering into a new area for the first time. I mean, how out of place do you feel when you go you know, when you go on the first time. Remember the first time I left here and went to Canada and just crossing the border to go hunt, I felt I didn't feel comfortable. I felt odd, I felt out of place. The territory. I couldn't see five ft in front of my face because the trees, and if it was an opening, it was freaking water. And I didn't feel comfortable. Um, it's it's they're they're no different in those terms. I mean, you know, they moved to a new area and sometimes they get forced into that. Yeah, but when they do, they're not comfortable. Yeah, you want to talk about being uncomfortable. Grew up in the Midwest and then head to the Hunt of Colorado in August, you'd be like, well, there's a rattlesnake, there's some fire ants, here's a trantula hawk chasing me. Don't forget about the scorpions and the occasional black widow and the blonde. My buddy just got stung by a scorpion. Yeah, so much fun, man, Thank you so much for coming on. Lots of good information. Uh. I can't wait to see the sheep that you kill. Uh, super stoke for you for that, man, I'm excited. Thanks for having me. Um always been a fan of this podcast and it was it was an honor to get to be on it. And yeah, I hope guys and gals can find some useful information there. And uh, I'm looking forward to the sheep Hunt hopefully. You know you'll be updated regularly as you know. Definitely. Well, good luck buddy, all right, but thanks. Well that's it for this week, my friends. I have been your guest host Tony Peterson, and this has been the weird Hunt podcast as always, Thank you so much for listening. We absolutely love and appreciate all your support and we will see you right here next week for more deer hunting conversations and wisdom

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