00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four sixteen in. Today we've got Witt Fostberg, the President and CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, here to discuss the public and private land conservation related policies, bills, and initiatives that hunters and anglers need to be watching. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light. And today we are in week three of our Conservation Month series, and we're kind of taking an approach today that combines what we talked about in the first week and the second week. So week one we had Randy Newberg talking public lands, in week two we had Matt and Adam from Landing Legacy talking private land. And today we've got Wit from the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership to talk about where these two things come together. So, the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership is a nonprofit conservation organization that works to develop partnerships across a wide variety of different folks to move hunting and fishing related policies forward. Things that are good for hunters, things that are good for anglers, things that are good for wildlife and habitat, and they find they find ways to bring different organizations hunting organizations, fishing organizations, uh, different folks within the conservation world and and kind of move them in a way that we can achieve more by working together. It's a collaborative approach, and the TRCP works to build those relationships and get those things moving in the right direction. So today, what is going to kind of fill us in on what those very most important initiatives are. What's happening right now across the landscape, across the political world, across the on the ground kind of conservation movement. What's happening with private lands? What are the things that we need to be thinking about to make sure that there's healthy landscapes out there on private land for deer and deer hunters and all those other critters. And same thing for public lands. So we kind of take those two approaches that we talked about in the last couple of weeks bringing together get this high level kind of thirty thousand foot overview that WIT is is really well informed and able to help us on. So we're gonna discuss things like the next farm bill, which is really really important when it comes to the places that we deer hunters focused on. The farm bill is a tremendous conservation focused bill, so that's something we talk a lot about. We talked about how conservation could and should be thought about within the upcoming infrastructure build debate that I'm sure many of you guys have been hearing about in the news. There's some stuff in there that maybe there could be some stuff in there that should be helpful to deer and hunting and the outdoors and the natural world. We're gonna talk about migration corridors. This is something that Randy and I kind of teed up and I wanted WIT to dive into it further. We talk a decent bit about chronic wasting disease, which I know is something that isn't the fun thing to talk about, but is important in What's got some updates for us there too. And then this one is something you don't hear a whole lot about within the hunting world, but it seems to be changing. We're talking about why organizations like the National Deer Association, the Archery Trade Association, White Tails Unlimited, Pope and Young Club, and dozens of other hunting and fishing industry companies and organizations why they're now talking about changes in climate and getting past the weird political polarization of this topic and talking about how hunters and anglers can push for common sense approaches to tackling this challenge and improving wildlife habitat in the environment, doing good things to make sure we can hunt and fish. So that's one of those topics that for a long time has been uh, superpolarizing, but it seems to be changing. And what's got some updates there that I think are worth here. So that's the game plan today. Um, it's an interesting conversation. I enjoyed it. If you want to stay up on these things, if you want to be a well informed hunter or angler and be able to you know, advocate when necessary, this kind of information is going to help you do it. The t RCP is a great resource and what is as well. So that's what we got. I enjoyed this one. I hope you do. Thanks for tuning in for Conservation Month and for thinking about these topics. Um, I think we can all make a big difference. And I'm excited to, you know, be a part of this community that I know is doing good things. So that is gonna be it for me. Let's get to my conversation with what Fostberg. All right now with me on the line is what Fostburg? What? Welcome back to the show. Hey, thank you very much. Mark, It's great to be back with you. Yeah. I always enjoy our conversations and um, and this one maybe maybe I don't want to say more than others, but especially today, it's just that time of year, at least for me, where a lot of conservation and environmentally things start popping up in the news, you know, with Earth Day and everything, and it's just always, for whatever reason, this time of year gets me reinvigorated to be looking at this big picture stuff. You know. So much of the year can be focused on this hunting trip or this fishing trip or this project or whatever. But this springtime period, at least for me, always seems like a great opportunity to step back and look at, you know, what are the things going on that ensure that I have places to go and have critters to chase and do those things. And uh, there's few people out there that are more involved with that than you would. Um. So how are you feeling these days? Are you feeling invigorated or you worn down? No, you know, I actually I feel pretty good. Um. You know, I think that you know, first of all, spring is a great time. You know, I ben as a turkey hunting a couple of times in the last couple of weeks, and the shatter in the river and you know, stripers are in the river. So it's a you know, sort of a time where optimism blooms. And we're not yet to the dog days of summer here in d C. So no, I think it's a good time to be optimistic. And then from a policy perspective, new administration, there are always a lot of changes. There's always a lot of things they're trying to do, and you're you're scrambling, especially given you know, the last four years and then these upcoming four years. You know, you could not have pulled more polar opposites and a lot of conservation policies. But you know, we tend to sort of attract that middle ground anyway. So I think that, you know, we you know, we feel optimistic, but what we can accomplish we felt optimistic, what we accomplished are prodicultly accomplished in the last year or two. And uh no, I think you know, this is one of those issues that remains pretty much bi partisan in Congress. And you know, with that, I think we have an opportunity to actually get stuff done, whereas a lot of other people just you know, nash their teeth over Grid Luck in Washington. Yeah. So, how do you how does this swinging of the pendulum from left or right, left or right that we seemingly have every four to eight years. I mean, Randy Newberg and I were talking the other day about this and how you see, you know, historically over the last fifty years or so, we'll get good on the environment, but not so good on hunting rights and guns. When you go to the D side, and you'll be great on hunting rights and guns, but less so on the environment or public lands when we swing to the left. Um, are you seeing that changing at all? Are you seeing that we're starting to get a little more of that middle ground like you mentioned, or is that something that you guys are constantly battling given the fact that you're kind of planted in the middle as well as far as what your guys role is. Yeah, you know, I think that we are, you know, swinging back toward the middle a little bit. I mean, historically Republican has have been a good conservation of Democrats have you could argue even better going all the way back to the Roosevelt's time. E p A got created under Nixon. You know, a Clean Water Act came law hunder Nixon. You know, so you have you know, there have been you know, Republican presidents that have a lot of crow about in terms of conservation, and it's really only been in the last thirty years where you've seen that partisanship and you talked about the swings that go from administration administration. I mean, I think our main goal is to point out that you know, these are should not be partis issues. Um, you know, conservation habitat, you know, hunting, fishing, these are things I'll to be bringing us together. And I think you've seen that in the last year. In the last two years, we passed the Big Dingle Conservation Act, which established a bunch of new wilderness areas while the Scenic Rivers, but also permanently reauthorized Land and Water Conservation Fund, and then you know, in the last year, you know, we got the Great American Outdoors Act that fully funded forever at Land and Water Conservation Fund and invested almost and billion dollars into you know, fixing the maintenance back organ and public lands which could be trails, campsites, roads, boat ramps, you name it, visitors centers. There is a lot of neglect on our public lands and you know, we would even see it and things like you know, managing our forces. And I think that there's real opportunities here too sort of make some progress. And you know those acts in Dingleville at Great American Outdoors Act passed with overwhelming majorities Democrats and Republicans, and I think that, you know, then we also passed toward the end of last year the America's Conservation Enhancement Act, which was reauthorized or created a series of on the ground restoration bills, you know, like North American Wetlands Conservation Act, the National Fish Habitat Partnership actum programs like that that are you know sort of the you know, i'd say, the you know, the basic building stones of our community. So ducks unlimited uses the Wetlands Conservation Act to restore wetlands around this country, try to limit it uses you know, fish habitat partnerships to restore headwater streams. And I think that, you know, we're seeing that kind of work embraced and extending and in a very nonpartisan way, which is great. And I think that, you know, our goal is always going to be to make sure we have durable conservation solutions that don't genuflect back and forth every four years. And that was really one of the frustrations when the Trump guys came into office was that, you know, they immediately assumed anything that happened under Obama was bad, even the really good stuff, and jettison as much as they could and so incredibly frustrating to have that. So one of our main jobs we've been trying to do since well before the election was to you know, you know, work as the Biden campaign at that time now the Biden administration, to point out, you know, there really some very solid stuff that the Trump guys did on migration policy, on access and try to not throw that out, but to build upon it and all that can be approved and it can be strengthened. But it's something that shouldn't you know, just swing back and forth because the other guy didn't. And you know that is that can be challenging in this environment. But you know, we've had a pretty good reception so far from the Biden folks. It doesn't look like they're gonna throw out the Migration Executive Order, a bunch of the access programs that the Trump guys did, and I you know, we'll see more in you know, a time, but I think they are going to build upon that stuff. So you know, that's why we're cautiously optimistic right here. That's good. So so what then, what do you what's got you the most fired up? Like, is there one thing that you're either the most excited about or the most worried about. It sounds like a little bit optimistic. So what's the thing that that you are the most optimistic about? Maybe, well, I mean everything in the for the next four years is going to be viewed through the climate lens. And you know, actually, I'm excited for our community to really engage in that because the things that are good for climate, like a sucking carbon neck into the soils, you know, the sequence storation the adaptation, the resilience aspects of carbon are really good for hunting and fishing and good for conservation. Maybe look at the science on climate change. And I'm not a climate scientist, but somewhere in the range about of the solution is basically sucking carbon out of the atmosphere, and by far the best way to do that is through natural processes like grasses and trees and uh. And so I think we know, And we had a convened our community for multiple times over the last couple of years to really get everybody on the same page. And if folks want to look at you know, we have our land. We have a website that you know, I think some I'll pull up the U R L right now, make sure I have it right, but a website that lays out the position of our community on climate saying, yeah, you gotta reduce emissions, but you also have to have a major investment in you know, the on the ground, you know, the carbon sequestration inside. And you know, if you want to think about what that means, you know that is you know, things like reforestation that is more land and agriculture, in conservation and not in road crops that is cover crops. You know, where you do have some road crops, it is you know, barrier islands and better wetlands systems that are natural buffers for hurricanes, floods, you know, whatever it might be. They also clean the water and they provide great fishing, wilife, habitat. So I think that, you know, when I think about it, and I think about and I'm you know, excited about something, I'm thinking about how we can apply what our community wants anyway into this broader framework of climate and natural infrastructure, because I think it works really well for as a climate solution, and it works really well forficial wildlife and habitat. Yeah. Yeah, you know, climate change is one of those things that has become such a political um, I don't know if it's political football, but but a but a flashpoint. Definitely one of those things that becomes so politicized that I think a lot of people have visceral reactions just to the to the word, to the words climate change and immediately feel like they have to retreat back to their camp when they hear that. It's encouraging them to see for myself, at least, what you guys are putting out there with this Conservationist for Climate Solutions kind of initiative, and the fact that there's a wide array of organizations stepping up and saying like, hey, let's set the politics aside. There there is clear scientific evidence that stuff is happening, and we can make a difference to further you know, hunting and fishing. So I mean organizations like the National Deer Association, the Archery Trade Association, back Country Hunters and Anglers, POPE and Young White Tail Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, all these organizations have signed on to to basically acknowledge this is a real thing that we need to think about, and let's let's put the politics aside and let's just work on some things that can help wildlife while life habitat right. I mean, that's that's yeah. And I think that you know, and listen the polarization and the fact that this became you know sort of Republicans versus Democrats, became Green New Deal versus you know, you know, more coal. I mean, those sorts of you know, sort of you know, extremes are not helpful. And it's what we've tried to do is you know, it's called our Landwater Wildlife dot Org. And folks can check it out and is present this not in a scary way, but as something that makes you know, a ton of sense for the things we really care about that are hunting and fishing, cleaner water that our habitat, more biodiversity. I mean, give you one example on this. You a managed forest like in private hands, is you know, absorbs about seven times more carbon than our national forests too, because our national forests we've stopped doing after banishment so much of it. And the extent that we can go back in there and take out those areas that have been blighted by beetle infestation and they're just going to blow up in a fire at some point, you know, cut them, replant, you know, create a mosaic of hab debts to wilderness. Road this area's early successional forest. I mean that is good for wildlife and that's good for climate. So I think that you know, it's again how you talk about it. I'm not going to go into the heartland and talk about climate change. I'm gonna go in and talk about let's improving soil health through start carbon's equestration. Let's go to Louisiana and talk about you know, rebuilding barrier islands along our coast and rebuilding wetlands to protect the cities, and yes, a carbon solution too, but it's also something that if you live along the coast of Louisiana, you're gonna do because you're gonna get flooded if you don't have it. And it's only so high you can build those levels. So I think that so it's really a different way of framing these issues. But in the long term, I think, you know, we all want the same thing. Even if you look at Republicans in Congress and they have acknowledged that climate change is happening, there are a ton of Republican bills out there would address it. There's a difference in ideology. Sometimes we're in the Republicans sign the Democratic side with more of a command and control versus incentive technology versus a carbon tax or a cap and trade. You know, fine, you know I'm not the smartest guy in the room. Let somebody else figure that stuff out. What our community can do is, you know, we can help with habitat side. And you know that's and that I think is really good for the things that you and I care about. Yeah, so what would you say, for for hunters and anglers listening now and and this being something that you know, for a long time has not been top of mind at least within the conversation within this community. You know, where are we at on that? Is it? Simply Hey, let's start paying more attention to this and look for how the creative ways that we can be a part of the solution. Is that where we're at what, you know, what kind of action should people be actually thinking about this point? Um? So, I think the first thing is to let's you know, before you have sort of a knee jerk reaction and some sort of you know, snarky comment on a website, you know, sort of uh, you know, take a deep breath, you listen and look at the science, have a discussion, because chances are you're a lot closer than you think you are in terms of folks on the other side that have been navocating something you tend not to believe in. And then in terms of what you can do, see this as an opportunity engage. I mean, you know, we want to see the Farm bill programs, you know, the conservation programs in the Farm bill, which is about a six billion dollar annual program we'd like to see them doubled in the next farm bill, so in the numbers that Washington is kicking around these days, that's very doable. But if you think about twice as much land and conservation out there that, how can you if you're a hunter and angler, how can you think that's anything but a good idea. We're not talking about, you know, sort of converting our premium crop lands into CRP. I mean CRP and the other conservation programs are really designed for the more marginal habitats, which you know, unfortunately we tend to plow up and put into row crops and drain the adjacent wetlands, and and we've got to get away from those incentives and instead incentivize private landowners to do us right for the land and for all the critters, and for the water and and for soil health, and so even things like cover crops. You go on the eastern shore of Maryland, people been doing cover crops for years primarily because it was a solution for all the runoffs are going to the chest Peak Bay and really creating problems there. But you go to place like Iowa, and the use of cover crops, you know, is rare. So you know, let's start thinking. And you know, I'm not gonna tell some pretty somebody in Iowa how to farm. They know that far better I'm ever going to know it. But you know, think about if we can incentivize them to do things like, you know, during the winter, you know, put some other crops down that keep the soil in place and sword carbon, and we'll make it worth your while financially. Let's let's think about that. So again, I think, going back to your original question, let's just not sort of you know, back into our corners. Let's have a conversation. Let's figure out ways that you know work for us. And you know, as you know, hunters and anglers tend to be on the front lines of climate change. We see duct migrations being delayed, or geese not even getting down in the chest Peak Bay. You know, we see elks staying up in the mountains longer. You know, you know, we see you know, book trout Home range and the appellations retreating every year. And you just can't ignore these friends. And so yeah, listen, let's be a part of the solution instead of just you know, complaining about things. Yeah, and and given the fact that there is momentum around taking action on some climate related things. You know, like you just said, a lot of the priorities that these hunters and anglers have also would benefit the climate, and so we kind of have an opportunity to ride the momentum wave to to get some winds for things that we have previously historically always cared about, and then it becomes a win win for all sides. So from that perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Um. Yeah, I mean that's the that's the that's what gets me excited about the time we're in right now, is I just think there are a ton of opportunities for our community and the year's add and we just have to stand up and engage. Yeah. So you mentioned the farm bill, Um, the next Farm bill authorizations in right, that's correct. Okay, So we're you know somewhere around two years year and a half, two years out from that. This is I think it's accurate to say it's the largest private land related conservation bill that comes through every handful of years. Yeah, it's the largest conservation program in this country period. I mean, we spend more on conservation through the Farm bill than we do on all of our public lands combined. Yah. So so and from a pure dollar standpoint, it's the biggest. But that makes sense. The lower forty eight or in private hands, and the majority of that is either in farm or in managed forest. So it's you know, it's a huge it's a huge deal in terms of conservation. Yeah. So with this next one coming up, then what are the big priority issues or changes you want to see made? I know there, you know, I know CRP is a big when I'm sure, Um, but could you kind of walk us through as far as a hunting community, what should we be paying attention to and you know, writing to our representatives and senators and whatnot about what are those big asks we have for the next bill. Well, I'll start even before the next bill. We have to get the implementation the current bill, you know moving. I mean, we have CRP is down to almost twenty million acres right now. It was a high about thirty eight million acres you know, a couple of decades ago, and it's to say it's been dying on the vine is an understatement. Um. You know, there is another three million acres that are expected to basically rotate out of the program. Later on this year. So, and the reason that's happening is, and I'm gonna be critical of the Trump administration on this one, is that they just you know, didn't care about the program. They were much more than just sending bailout checks to farmers to do nothing than investing in programs like the RP that work. So you had limited sign ups to sign ups that we had. You know, we're not offering any decent incentives. The rental rates were too low. It just wasn't in a farmer's interest, you know, to take his or her land and put it into c RP. And we have to make that program competitive. Now. We don't want to wait till the Farm Bill had to fix it. Let's make some changes now. We think the current administration has extended the current CRP sign up and they're going to come up with ways to basically increase the incentives to get more acres enrolled in that. And you know, if you're a pheasant hunter in South Dakota, you care a whole lot about the rap. If you're a deer hunter, you know that this your habitat too. You know, ducks very important. But I think that you know goal number one is to fully implement the current farm Bill, which hasn't been done. And then two is we're looking toward the next one. I mentioned an overall doubling of you know, the conservation title of the Farm bill, going from about six billion to twelve billion dollars a year. And we want to see things like incentive payments, you know, for any of these programs the increase. We want to see more long term easements, you know, in sort of critical wetland areas for example. UM, we want to see things like the Regional Conservation Partnership program, which looks at entire landscapes and you know, sort of takes a holistic approach to how do we conserve this area and make it work for private agriculture, And so maybe a whole bunch of different things from the stream restoration projects to easement projects too, you know, the sentence for cover crops or whatever it might be. So I think that you know, all of the programs have their champions and have their merits. We just need more of all of the above as we look into the next Farm Bill. And I think that we're already you know, sort of beginning that process of convening there we have that groups underneath our trsp umbrella that really care about farm bill, Toxic Limited Physists, Forever, Turkey Federation, and you know, we're already having those discussions about Okay, if we're king and we're gonna come back in here and we're gonna redraft this, let's not be wedded to the way we've always done in the past. Let's think about what works best and not just us for fishing, wildlife and water quality, but also for the other farmer, because if it doesn't work for the farmer, it's not gonna work for our interests either. So we're having those discussions now. We've welcome any input from folks out there about things they've seen that do work and that don't work. They can go to our website. You know, we have a whole section on farm bill. You know, leave a comment. You know. Uh, Andrew Earle is the guy who runs our agg program, a Earl at TRCP dot org. Send him your thoughts about things you've seen that work and don't work, because now is the time to, you know, let us know what you're seeing out there and things changes that you think would make some sense. And your listeners are all over the country and a Lobdburg farm country and whitetail country. We want to hear what they're here. Yeah, you know, it seems like something like like this, this bill, the Farm Bill, that comes up over and over again. It's it's it's almost equivalent to something like the Great American Outdoors Act, which was a thing more public land focus, what was getting a ton of funding for backloud maintenance and which was securing funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund. It was it was securing funding for really really important, you know, public access type initiatives. The Farm Bill secures funding for really really important private land related conservation and access. You've got the voluntary um Hunter Access program that you know, makes so many places across the country available for deer hunters. Then of course as a CRP program that you describe, which puts really the high quality wildlife habitat on the ground, and then all the other pieces of this puzzle that incentivize you know, quality wetlands, quality grasslands, all this stuff that we need to deer hunt, to duck hunt whatever. It seems like this is on par as far as the positive impact you can have, but it just isn't as sexy I think it's harder to get people fired up about a farm bill every five years, even though it could make a really really big difference. How how do we I don't know, what do you? I mean? Is there any truth to that? Wet? Do you feel like I feel like this still flies into the radar for the average hunter out there, even though it has so much importance. Yea, yeah, Mark, I mean I think you framed the issues actly right. This is essentially a privately and equivalent of the Great American Outdoors Act of you know, the Dangle Act, and this that big a deal and it happens every five years. Um, but it's you know, it's not clean and simple. I mean, the great majority of money out of the farm bill is the nutrition program, which is food stands. And there's a reason for that because there was a compromise long ago, you know where you did that. You know, you wanted something to help urban you know, congressmen and members of the Senate, and you want to have something that would benefit you know, the rural farmers. So they lumped both the nutrition assistance and you know, the conservation programs and the rest of the traditional farm programs all in one bill. So you know, the noise is always about, you know, how much money we're spending on food stamps or how we're subsidizing corporate farms or things like that, and the benefits, especially on the conservation side. You just don't hear about those. And I mean it's obviously a huge deal, you know, for our community, for our partners, but more broadly, Yeah, no, it's you're exactly right, is you know something that's much more difficult to get your arms round because it's such a beast. Yeah, what's the what's the time frame when it comes to influencing the upcoming farm bill as far as you know, not folks that are working in within the policy landscape and industry, but folks like me who are just out here who want to place a phone call or send an email and start trying to make sure that our representatives are on board with this. When is that is that ino? Or or when do we need to start making a rucket to make sure good things are put into this well, I mean you start making rockets right now, and things like you know, if you're you know piste that you know, land just keeps, you know, seeping out of the conservation reserve program. For example, you don't wait till three to talk about that. Talk about that now, because we want to have maintained the pressure on this administration to do something about that. So let's do that. First second is, you know, if you have you know, we will sort of be gearing up our advocacy for the next Farm Bill, probably late this year early next year, and you know full and you can you can get your cues from you know, our website or from phusis Forever Duxi limit to whoever about opportunities to engage at that time. But you know, this gives you a little bit of time right now to you know, learn more about these programs how they might impact you. I mean one that you mentioned that I've forgotten to mention that voluntary Public Access program. You know, that's a huge one, you know, so just so folks understand how that works. It's a fifty million dollar program in the Farm bill currently, and it provides you know, grants to states on a competitive basis, and then those states and they developed easements or basically agreements with individual landoors to open up that land for public hunting and fishing. And then in return, the farmer gets the payment and the stage assumes liability as you know, somebody gets injured on your property. So it's a program that really works. It works well with things like you know, the walk in programs and a lot of Western states. You know, when they started this program on the federal side through the Farm Bill, and it was really trast ted and FENSIS Forever and AFFLA Association of Fish whild Life Agencies that work together to create this program the two thousand eight Farm Bill. But because of their money now exists. You've had these types of programs start up in states like Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, but you don't think about as you know, traditional farm states per states where access can be pretty challenging. So what we want to see again, you know, you know, we have a report on our website lays out some of the success stories around this program that give us folks an idea of how these work. But now is the time to start advocating for more of that because you know, we're trying to figure out ways to keep farmland and farmer's hands and not see it turned into condos or walmarts or anything else. And this is another way that the farmer can get revenue coming in in addition to whatever they're doing on the crop side, in addition to CRP or other conservation programs they may be rolled in. But to extent that, you know, this makes it easier for them to stand land and gives us for opportunity to hunt and fish in good places. Is the win win. Yeah, yeah, it really is. And there's there's probably not any other issue that is impacting more hunters right now from like a really ground level than access. I mean everyone's talking about access these days. Everyone's talking about how overcrowded some places have been feeling, as we've had increased participation over the last year. So I mean you're looking for more access opportunities like this can give us. I mean, there's no there's no knock against it as far as I'm concerned. So let's really hammer that home for sure. Yeah, and I think a lot of the criticisms about, you know, there's too many people at trail, has too many people in certain areas is all very true. But that same part because we have lost traditional access for a long long time. The old days in the West, you can knock on anybody's door across their land access at national forest behind you, you can't do that anymore. All those lands are posted, and which then forces everybody in the state Western United States into restricted acts official access sites of that national forest, which obviously increases conflict, produces the user experience, and it's just a bad deal all the way around. So things like the voluntary public access program for private lands create more of that. In the East, I mean, you've seen the same sort of you know changes the old days, all the timber company lands in Maine or the Adirondex you could just go and hunt on, But now they're almost all the least. So if you're fortunate enough to be a part of that least, then you've got a great place to go, But a lot of other folks get shut out of that. And so these programs are critical for providing the experience that's going to keep this sport strong in the future. Yeah. So so kind of hop scotching to another hot topic within the world of politics right now, there's there's a lot of talk about the big infrastructure UH proposal coming out of the current administration, and it seems like, you know, given the political situation, it seems like something's going to pass one way or another, whether it's bipartisan or not, something's going to happen on this front. So what does that mean for you know, is there an opportunity there for hunters and anglers? Hunters and anglers? It seems like from some of the things that I've been reading and some of the things that you guys are talking about, UM with your Conservation Works initiative, UM, you guys see some opportunities in there. Can you kind of outline where you think wildlife and habitat and stuff like that fits into this? Maybe, yeah, I thinks another opportunity and we usually don't think about things like an infrastructure bill as an opportunity for official life. But part of that is definitions and you know, part of what we have been trying to advocate. And you know, again we have our whole you know web you know, sex of our websites about this. But what we're trying to advocate is that, you know, first of all, let's redefine how we think about infrastructure. It's not just about you know, bigger levees and you know, just sort of the hard gray of the structure as they call it. It is also about the green infrastructure. It is about wetlands. This is about you know, barrier islands, the things we've talked about that can make huge differences in terms of communities but also for our issues, and I think we're making some progress on that. I mean, you know, North Maryland's Conservation Act. It's great program for ducks, but it's also you know, critically important for preserving wetlands, which in turn take care of reduced flooding and improved water quality. So if you're not sending all this polluting water down the Upper Mississippi River as fast as you can, overwhelming the wastewater treatment facilities and cities like Des Moines, yeah, you're doing a good thing not only for people, but also for the environment and for you know, things we like to go hunt for. So I think that, you know, part of his definitions and really thinking about infrastructure in a difrent way because you know, historically the core of engineers, you know, organizations like that, have viewed infrastructures one way and that's something that is built, and we're trying to expand that definition a little bit. But you also think about things like the Highway Bill, which is part of you know, it probably is going to be part of any big infrastructure package. Yeah, we had you know, pilot programs of two fifty million dollars in both the House bill and the Senate bills that would pay for wildlife crossings. So you hear in Wyoming you may have seen these, you know, to take new old deer, elk, pronghorn over the interstates so they don't you know, get hit and uh, you know, people aren't put at risk also, and these are things that make a ton of sense. The animals use them, they habituate to them. Um. And obviously there was a whole bunch of things in terms of sighting where you put these, but we want to see that program in this current effort kicked out to five million dollars and go for things beyond us big game of the West, to the United States, to a lot of Eastern programs. I mean, there's issues with black bear in Tennessee, elk in Kentucky and Pennsylvania, reptiles and amphibians and New Jersey. So there are a bunch of different places we need to think about how do we get animals that always have to move over these systems that are often lethal to them and to people. So that's just an idea. If we think about infrastructure, the ways that we can get some of our priorities built into these broader programs. Now, there's gonna be a ton of stuff that has nothing to do with our issues, from we'real broadband to traditional roads and bridges, and that's all fine, but we just want to make sure that, you know, as Congress looks at putting together a big package on this um, that our issues are included. Now, when the Biden administration you know, sort of rolled out initial thoughts and blueprint for what would be in there, you know, they've talked about this natural infrastructure, which is important. They've talked about, you know, restore one of the everglades, you know, which is you know, critical and obviously a priority of hours. They've talked about restoring wetland function around the Great Lakes. So I think that you know, there are a lot of folks that have been hearing this that are going to be on the same page with us. But like climate, you know, we see this as another opportunity. Is this one of those things where it's how do you see the outdoors community engaging on this one? Is there are we the stage yet where we have a concerted or we should have a concerted effort of of pushing any of these things, or are we still kind of in a wait and see holding pattern to see what actually gets put into some kind of bill where do you feel stuff stands on that? And you know, I think that there's a there's an opportunity to you know, straight engage right away. I mean, first of all, we've got you know, a good to our website. We have a natural infrastructure you know, some micro site within that really talks about what do we mean by natural infrastructure. We barrier islands, you know, living shore lines, rivers and streams, all that stuff, so it becomes familiar with some of the you know, the topics that are being discussed. But right now there is not an infrastructure bill that has actually been put together. So that is coming. So there will be a time, you know, in the not too distant future where wild have a chest to weigh in and to support you know, S twenty three or whatever it's going to be. You know, that will be you know, a Senator House version of an instruction infrastructure package. And I actually think that this is one of those areas that there's a lot of bluster right now. But I think Democrats and Republicans believe that we need to invest in a big way and infrastructure, you know how big ways and other things. What are so of the you know, the ancillary issues that might get tacked on. There's gonna be some debate about that, but I think there is broad consensus that infrastructure has been neglected for too long in this country and needs to be invested in. Yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how all plays out. I I hope this is one of those things that can bring folks from all sides together and get something that makes sense uh moving forward. Uh, But as it seems, there's always seems to be opportunities for things get crazy. Who knows. UM always always opportunities for that. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. You mentioned another thing I want to talk about, which was UM these migration corridors UM. I've been kind of personally becoming more and more fascinated with UM corridors and connectivity and UM A lot of these ideas around kind of island ecosystem impacts and how that is starting to happen across you know, actual contiguous land. You know, so there's a lot of ideas about how wildlife populations UM adjust and live and thrive or or don't thrive on actual islands in the middle of the water. But also that stuff seems to translate to, you know, areas where a wild area essentially becomes a de facto island because it's surrounded by development or or whatever. So um, something like a mountain range surrounded by desert, or the greater Yellowstone ecosystems surrounded by increasingly you know, more development cities, etcetera. UM. And and one of the big things here is the importance of having these corridors, migration quarters and whatnot, so that you can not only have actual big game migrations continue, but you can also have these populations, you know, be able to connect between different chunks of of ground so that you know, a bear that's in one area can mingle with bears fifty miles away, and so they don't get stuck in their own little island. And then that population never gets influx of of of new genes, and and it can better weather, you know, changes in whether it's climate or pressures from people or fire or whatever. So I've been I've been just reading a lot about this. It's very interesting. UM. I'm just curious where you're where you guys are on these things, stuff like the Wildlife Quarters Conservation act Um. Just curious, you know what what's on your radar on that front other than you mentioned the wildlife crossings. Yeah, so, I mean science has come a long way on this issue over the years. And listen, you and Ronnell and I have talked about like Aisle Royal and the wolves and the moose, and that's a classic example of what happens over time when you can't get influx of new genetics into a population, they end up, you know, essentially blinking out. So you know, movement is critical, particularly a big game species. And we I think everybody who knows who hunts or knows that in intrinsically. I mean you've you've obviously things like half of the prong horn, you know, coming out of Jackson and going down towards the Red Desert is famous. The New Old Deer research and going on to Wyoming is just fascinating where they have collared mule deer and track them and they may travel hundred and fifty miles and uh and then then you start to think about the things they need along that journey. It's not just how to get across the highway, or how to deal with fenses. It is, you know, the stop over areas where they gain strength for the rest of that trip. And if you've got an oil field, there's some stort of development of what was a historic stopper, or they just keep on going they don't have that nutrition. So, you know, our thought about what it goes into protect these migrations, first of all, what progrations are like, but then what we need to do to protect them has changed. And it's just super cool. Science and University Wyoming has done a tremendous amount on this, and National Geographic has and variety of scientists and it's super inspiring and it's something that the broader population can connect to as well. And you talk about bears, you know, my company out Ondex, I mean there is no white tail migration. Every year. Come right around Thanksgiving as it starts to get cold and deep snow, they essentially, you know, leave our property head down across the Hudson River, you know, and probably a twenty mile giver take migration into an area where they guess historically winnered over the years, and then they moved back in the spring. And it's one of those things that the only reason we know about is because we've stumbled upon it hunting, when all of a sudden towards you know, that late season time, you start seeing all these those and fawns and you know, spike bucks, you know, just cruising down here. I mean the paths are beaten to mud. The big bucks stick around, they can handle the heavy winter, but the smaller animals, younger animals, you know, they all basically leave the property. And it's, you know, something you know I wasn't aware of fifteen twenty years ago, but we've kind of figured out over time and if that's happening there, then it's happening in a lot of different places. So it just argues that we need to create these incentives to allow these animals to move, particularly as the climate gets warmer and they're going to have more and more of the need. And so how does that look. Yeah, we talked about crossings, but we also think about things like the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and if we're going to be purchasing you know, lands or easements on private lands, you know that they're going to be critically important to allow these you know, let's think about that not just in the terms this is a beautiful vista, but that this is a really important site on their migration journey, and let's use some of these resources that we have for these types of projects in those areas, in other words, to follow the science and you know, maintain these migrations. Now, I'm going to give the Trump administration a lot of credit in this one when they did Secretary Order three zero six to which basically directed the western states that had mule deer pronghorn elk to come up with their top migration corridors in those states and then you know, work with the federal government to identity to create conservation plans. And that was not only important in its own right, but that also led to a bunch of the Western states creating their own programs. And you had to states like Utah and Wyoming that had done a fair bet on migration already, but then you had others like you know, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico's doing this, you know, come up with their their own programs that are going to be critically important in the future. So we just want to make sure there's no backsliding on that, because you know, that is you know, really important stuff. What do you see as the next steps on that? So the executive order got those plans being put in place, Um, what's what's necessary to get that into actual action? All right? So I think here we talked a little bit about, for example, the highway bill and funding you know too, because one of these crossing was over especially a big interstate is expensive, so you know, we need to have money for crossings. We need to have money to incentivize farmers to change their fencing structures. Pronghorn don't jump over fence, they slide under fences, so they have to have the particular designed types of senses that it will allow them to pass um. But also more broadly, how do we make sure that this is embraced and works for the private landowner and they don't see it as something that all of a sudden, you know, it's another burden that's being opposed upon them without any resources help them. So you know, let's figure out some financial incentives and that's what it takes to retrofit fences to you know, sort of provide you know that you know, you know, grasses or whatever they need and that stopover habitat. How do we do a better job fighting things like oil gas, solar wind development so that it's well off of these corridors and doesn't impact either winter habitat or summer habitat. I mean, these are all the things that we've got to sort of put into policy now that we've embraced conceptually the idea of conserving migration quarters. Yeah. So I think a lot of that stuff was included in the Wildlife Corridors and Wildlife Corridors Conservation Act that past the House last summer. I believe, Um, where do you see that going? Is that going to be resurrected? Do you think or a new version? Well there, I think, yeah, I think you're gonna see a new some new versions. Does this mean? So? You know, we had a little bit of heartburn, you know with the one that came out of the House, not because it was ill intended by any news, but you know, in my mind, the last thing we need is another federal designation of migration cordors, which we've seen it from other top down solutions from Washington that are not you know, received well in the West. They think us, here we go again, you know, Washington d C. Telling us how to do our business. And I just think that, you know, if what we're doing right now, you know, with the incentives based approach to corridors is working, we want to expand that. And if we turn it into a quote federal program, you know, we risk you know, sort of the you know, the traditional back black helicopter crowd that he thinks, here they come in. This is a stalking horse for you know, my you know, for getting into my land, and it's just going to create controversy. Who I don't think we need it. I mean, honestly, I just don't believe we need to have sort of the federal designation of migration corridors. Let's incentivize the states and private land ors to just conserve these corridors. And that's the place where I think the federal government can play the biggest role and not necessarily and designating corridors. So then for us on the ground, it then becomes kind of pointing our advocacy towards our state departments DNR or whatever like that, to make sure they're knowing that we care about these things too. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, this is a partnership between the FENS and the states, but ultimately the states have primary jurisdiction over managing wildlife in this country, particularly if it's not a migratory bird or if it's not and danger species. So you know, they're going to be the primary ones in charge that making sure we've got plenty of white tailed deer, mule deer, pronghorn, elk. I mean, you name it, all those species that move. So a federal government program is great if it helps the states achieve that same conservation goal too. So again I think that it's got to be a partnership. It's got to be across the multiple federal agencies, multiple states. I mean, while I don't recognize state borders, so you've also just it doesn't work just to have one state doing it, not another state. So again I think that the federal government can lead and provide incentives, but ultimately I think most of the rubbers gonna hit the road at the state level. Yeah yeah, but I also I also should have mentioned too you talked about next steps. Two credits that were left out of the Trump program were moose and wild sheep, and mostly for political reasons, we would love to see those, you know, added into the you know, sort of the federal designate in terms of priority for these Western migrations. And then also and things about you know, obviously connectivity, it's not just a Western issue, but how can we create a program that incentivized the states in the east to do the same thing that we're doing in the West right now. So I think those are the other things looking forward we need to be doing. Yeah, what's the story on on moost and sheep? Why did they get the political shaft from that one? Well, there's been you know, a lot of you know, the sheep growers out the west have Yeah, there's a ton of conflict with domestic and wild sheep because obviously wild sheep don't do too well when they bump into domestic sheep from disease transfer. And so you know, there's been Really the way you're going to conserve wild sheep in the West is to keep them separating from domestic sheep and to be sent that we're allowing those animals to move to, say between mountain ranges. You know, there were a lot of private landowners. I saw this is something that yeah, I was going to you know, not be in their interests. The sheep growing in the story. So I think that's where most of the most most of pushback came from gotcha, gotcha? Okay? Um. So another big picture issue that I am intrigued by and interested about, uh, is the whole thirty by thirty initiative which has been kind of am a rallying cry that has been spreading across the country, in the world, and most recently was was included in executive order by the current administration as a goal to work towards that being protecting of our land and waters by UM from a hunter and angler perspective, from the TRCP perspective, what do you guys think about this, this goal, this initiative and uh, and where do you see it going? So it's it can go one of two ways. It could either be really exciting something that again I think could really you know, benefit our long term goals of conservation, hunting and fishing. Or it could be it's sort of a preservationist let's a trojan horse that ends up, you know, preventing active management on a lot of lands, creating a lot of controversy. So you know that you know, this is the thirty by thirty concept was originally international and it was in response to the collapse in biodiversity around the world. And I think that you know it is you know, you know, very well intended and you know necessary because you know, the US does a better job literally of any other country in the world of managing a fish and wildlife. But if you go to Africa, Southeast Asia, you know a lot of other places, it is very different. And you're going to be seeing South America extinction on a very large level, already seeing it. So as this gets transported to the US, there has already been a date between and actually you use the word protect and the word actually was in the Biden executive Order was conserved. And there there was a reason behind that, and there were you know, us and a bunch of other people saying that you're serious about biodiversity, about conservation, about climate. You can't just draw lines on a map and just say, you know, people basically are not allowed in there, and we're never going to touch that area, because you know, we've done that in a lot of places. And Lison, I love wilderness, is much of the next guy. But we need is a mosaic and habitats in this country. We need or like successional, we need mid successional, we need late successional force. Um, we want you know, we want to make sure that private land ers are embracing and are part of the solution to achieve in that third percent goal. What that means is conservation even with long term ease, and it's under the Farm Bill. I mean, the threat is not you know, somebody you know, grazing some cattle in place that is land being converted from native grassland, road crops, from open space to condos. And that's where you really lose the biodiversity, and that's where you really lose conservation. And we've been winning the battle so far. You know, we had an executive order that came out of the White House, so we used the word conserve and launched a stakeholder process that includes private landowners to talk about what are going to be the definitions around conservation as we think about achieving these goals by And I think that's a very positive step because then, you know, what we're doing is we're thinking much more broadly than just you know, drawing lines on a map and protecting areas from the humans. The humans have always been a part of the environment. We're always going to be and uh, you know, I think as you know, you look at a place like Indiana, where the rough grouse has now been listed as a threatened species in the States. It's not because they've been over hunted. It's because we know longer have cutting any wood out there, and we just don't have those early successional for uts. So I think as we think about this particularly biodversity frame, I think this again is going to work in our community's interests if we engage and if we talk about you know, the broad conservation benefits um that go beyond just wilderness and mindedness. So in in in the best case scenario, you would like to see this measured not only in you know a number of acres that are protected as parks or wildlife refugees or wilderness or anything like that, but also with private lands that are under conservation easements, um what else and maybe not even not even permanent conservation. You could be fifteen years the RP contract in my mind that's protected. It may not be in fifteen years, and we have to readjust you know, we have to go back in and work for that lander or to re enroll those lands. But in terms of you know, sort of heading heading off the species collapse of getting more land into better management of dealing with our climate goals or infrastructure goals. These all work together. Yeah, so I think that, you know, I think that the private land ard has to be a part of the solution on this. I think that working lands on our national forests need to be a part of it. I mean, nobody wants to go back to the good old days of clearcuts everywhere, like we're seeing in the spot of nol Wars. But we've moved on as a country from that, and you can have active management and manage for early successional species on our national forests and have that land be considered conserved in my mind, because it is not going to be developed and it's going to be producing broad benefits from the species to climates. You know, this is one of those issues that are one of those opportunities at least. The way I'm seeing right now that I think can hit home probably hits so just about every one of us, because I think almost any one of us right now could look back in our childhood to some favorite fishing hole or some little backwoods wood lot where we used to build a fort or chase rabbits, or some creek that we used to catch fish in that now when we go back to revisit that place of our childhood, it's a walmart, it's a highway, it's uh drainage ditch. I mean, we're we're losing so many of these open spaces and we're all seeing everywhere. It's just it's happening, and it seems relentless, um to have at least some kind of some kind of hopeful goal of, hey, let's try to proactively, you know, get ahead of this in a few places. Man that I think people are gonna get sick of me bringing this up because I'm excited about the positive potential here, because i want to make sure, you know, my kids have got a little wood a lot to go chase rabbits in the fishing pond to catch you know, blue gills, and that's not surrounded by industrial development. Um. It seems like something that if we get involved with it and and help aim it in the right direction, this this could and should be a really good thing. Yeah, I'm totally with you. And again, you have to be an optimist to be in our business. I mean, if you're a pessimist, you want to quit a long time ago and go on and you know, build a bunker in the ground someplace and you know, flipped off a deer and that's it. But you know, I mean, you have to be optimistic about this, and you want to have these goals, and you want to have everybody sharing these goals. And part of the things is, I think, you know, need about the thirty by thirty concept is we get private landowners behind this concept thinking about how can they contribute to that the long term goals and nation in the world. I think that's good and not see this is something that's a threat to them, but it was something that you know, could make sure that they have that farm and their family for generations to come, you know, doing good things not just for producing crops, but for all the other ancillary benefits, including access and teaching their grandkids to hunt and fish in that same place that they learned. Yeah, so it seems like we're this is another one of those issues that's in a little bit of a wait and see kind of position. Um, is there anything that that we should be thinking about on this front other than just keeping tabs on it and seeing what opportunities arise. Yeah, I think just keep tabs on at this point. I mean, there's never gonna be a you know, yeah, sort of hard legislation on thirty by thirty. This is an aspirational goal and which is good and I think that you know, but let's just frame that goal in the right way and make sure we're all working on the same page. And again, you know, just you sign up as you know, support of ours, and we'll you'll get a weekly email from us and there be plenty of updates of where we are in that thirty process and the extent that there is actually a real stakeholder process that moves forward to help define this. I mean, we want to be engaged in that, which means we want you know, all of you folks out there and be engaged in there too. Yeah, okay, I want to jump back to something we were talking about the very beginning when you brought up um uh, some of the things that we're thinking now was a hunting fishing fishing committee related to some of the climate initiatives out there and the move that we're seeing happened towards more and more renewable energy, which which seems like a good thing in a lot of ways. Obviously as you look at the different environmental impacts of energy consumption and how it's derived. Um. And obviously wind and solar now is becoming a lot more affordable. It seemingly it seems like that's the direction things are gonna be heading more and more. UM. But I live in an area where a big wind farm was recently put in, and so I've all of a sudden scene wind energy up close and in person, in a experienced it kind of a different kind of way, with new roads being built and all these wood less you know, a hundred of these things put up all around me, and roads all over the place, and construction crews all over the place, and um, sixteen windmills within view of the house and flashing lights and all of this, and it just kind of gave me a different perspective from you know, hearing about something in the news to then seeing it in person. And then you know, I also started seeing solar farms popping up where a hundred acres of what used to be a farm field, uh is now a hundred acres with metal barred wire fencing all around it and nothing but solar panels across the entire acreage. So what used to be wildlife food and used by some amount of wildlife is now on a wildlife desert. I was listening to a podcast recently where they're talking about this, and they were talking about, you know, if if the country is going to shift towards renewable energy in the way that folks are talking about, it would require solar farms or wind farms. Uh, you know across tremendous, tremendous uh scales of of of land, like states worth of square miles covered with things like this. And the first thing that came to my mind was, man, I get and I appreciate the need to have cleaner ways to get our energy, but how do we do this in a way that doesn't create another biodiversity crisis? Like you were just talking about, How do we do this in a way that doesn't end up, you know, eliminating all the open land we're trying to save with thirty by thirty initiatives? Um? Is this something that's on you guys radar yet at all? It just seems like something that we're going to have to think a lot about. Yeah, you listen, development is development, and it doesn't matter whether it's a wind turbine or an oil derrick. I mane if for example, of mule deer is coming down. It's migration that sees it. It's going to go around it. It's a you know, savee grouse is going to move fleck from that area because you know, they have been grown up. They've evolved over millennia to avoid any tall structures because that's where the raptors sit and pick them off. So if they see some sort of tall structure out there, they're not going to be anywhere near it. So I mean, there are all these ripple effects on species from renewable development, the same way there are with oil and gas. And I think that you know, and then you mentioned the viewshad issues, you know, the roading. I mean, the notion that renewable energy is it does not having an impacts is just simply not wrong. I mean simply not right. And I think that we need to be way smarter that how we cite these And we we did a process back with the Obaministration, probably a decade at least ago, where we there are a whole bunch of proposals for new solar developments around the West, and there was a lot of pushbacks. So we convened the summit in Las Vegas with the Department of the Interior, with our community, with the States to talk about fighting and got a bunch of those proposed areas taken off the board. Now you can put a solar development out in a desert someplace and it probably just do a whole lot of harm, and there are probably good places for it, and there's always gonna be some sacrifice, you know, if we want to have Anersey period. So I get that. You know, we've seen some research recently that you know, offshore wind tends to be good for fish. Provide some underground structure, underwater structure, It keeps the commercial fishing out and over time you're gonna have stronger fish populations and done a recreational fishing. So there are places where it's gonna be done. It can be done well. I mean, I just flew in from a business trip on Friday, I guess Thursday, and you just fly into place like Washington or out of a place like Atlanta, and you look at all those enormous big boxes with nothing on top of the roofs. I mean, all of that ought to be solar. I mean, give me a break. And why are we developing virgin land out there? We have all these areas that we can incentivize to you know, you put solar in our communities where we live, which also, by the way, decreases transmission costs substantially. So I just think that we have to do a better job. I mean, because the the issue of the U site where you're seeing you know, people are seeing all over the place, and I think we have to listen. I'm all for clean energy, but I am not for you know, sort of spoiling places, wild places, you know, at the altar of renewables. Yeah, it's it's it's kind of like thrown out the baby with the bathwater kind of deal. Like you're trying to solve one problem that you're making a whole another one. So there's got to be some kind of better way to look at it. Um plus, I mean, we we've got to look at things like you know, small nuclear and I'm sorry, but I mean that's probably as about as clean as you're gonna get. And you know, I think the technology may not be quite there yet, but it will be, and we're gonna have to make some sacrifices. And I think things like that are definitely going to be part of the mix down the road, and honestly, I think you probably have a lot more potential than you know, vast wind farms every place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be something to keep an eye on, that's for sure. It seems like the winds of two shamelessly use upon the winds of change or blowing on this front. And uh, it's it's something that I think if if if there aren't some loud voices cautioning folks to do this in the right way, we could end up being, you know, just in as much trouble as it would be otherwise. And and uh, I hope that's not the direction things go. So but listen, we're also you know, because now that this is so much in the conversation, the technology is just going to improve, you know, from battery storage to solar panels to new wind turban designs you know that don't chop up bruds and bats. You know. I just think that, you know, technology is on our side here and we just can't be you know, satisfying before we're seeing right now, because it's got to get better. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, So moving on from fun time topic to fun topic, how about we talk about c w D oh yeah, yeah, Well, I know you guys are are placing an emphasis on keeping chronic wasting disease in the conversation. It's one of those things that I know deer hunters have. I think there's been some fatigue which which which is unfortunate but at the same time understandable and I honestly sometimes like gosh, I hate talking about CWD two um, but I know this is something that we have to keep an eye on. Can you give us an update on on what you guys are seeing on that front? What are some important moving parts right now? So you know, as you know and as a lot of your listeners know, there was some c first popped up, there was pretty strong funding from Congress that went out to the States for surveillance and testing. A lot of that dried up around two thousand and eleven, and so we've done as we tried to get that funding stream reinstated so the states actually have the ability to go out there and test animals to find out the extent of it right now, and you know, we've been blocked by the captive deer industry along the way, which honestly prefer people not know where it is. But we got five million and last year's bill, we're gonna get more than that into this year's appropriations bill. We also been focusing on the research side because there's still a lot of questions about transmission pathways and how you can get rid of it. So we got about a forty five million dollars tucked into the coronavirus Release bill at the end of last year for research into wildlife human disease interaction. And obviously part of the focus of that is things like bats and coronavirus, but you know it's got it's also going to be used for c t b D research too, because you know, if CDBD ever does jump from wildlife to humans, you know it will be fatal. I mean, it would be still the ocup disease, the bad cow disease, and we can't have that happening because you know, we've the place we've really seen growth in the hunting industry in the last decade has been in that whole you know, the food, the side of it, and people wanting to harvest their own, clean, non GMO, locally sourced protein. And if people all of a sudden start thinking it's not going to be safe, the venison. Then it will change hunting as we know it without any question. So we just think there has to be a big investment in this, and you know, folks like Sender Martin Heinrich. We'll be proposing legislation shortly that will dramatically increase funding for surveillance and testing going out to the states. We think it'll be about that fifty million dollar range is what we need. I mean, the scary thing is that you know, basically nobody has been in a surveillance to testing over the last year because coronavirus, so we don't know what's happened, you know where it's spread, and I think a lot of states honestly are afraid to look because you know where they figured they haven't had in the past. You know they are wondering if they do have it now. So we got to get past that. We need good data. We need hunters to be a part of the solution. So if we have the state phishing game agencies, we got knocked down a population in someplace, you know we're the best people to do that, not sharpshooters. So get out there, work with your state phishing game agencies. But you know what we're really focusing on right now is you know, the research is surveillance and testing funds from the States, and then we also want to make sure that the Department of Agriculture, you know, gets on top of the herd certification program, which right now I think, just give us, really you captive deer industry and others, you know, fall sensor security, because it just keeps popping up and he's hertified, is certified, you know, CBD free facilities and mesticos. They're moving deer around all the time. So I would love to see a moratorium on the interstate movement of deer, you know, until we have a much better handle on transmission pathways on you know, the efficacy of the her certification program. Um. But you know, the easiest way for this thing to spread is in the back of a truck. Yeah. And it seems like you said that there's a lot left to be desired as far as the processes for for monitoring these places and regulating these places in a smart way. So unfortunately, it just seems like this has been something we've been banging our heads against the wall on for a long time now. Um And and maybe it is as simple as as funding and hopefully having one of these technological breakthroughs that eventually gives us insight into what's a real long term solution. But it seems like right now it's it's monitor slow the spread and hope for for something good to come down the road. Right, Yeah, that's what it is, and it's it will travel very slowly, you know, if nature has its own way. I mean, you know, not quickly at all. I mean the play of the travels is when you know you're moving live der around for the cap facilities. It travels when you whack a white tail and you throw in the back of your truck and you drive three states over and processes back at home. I mean, those are the things we can't be doing anymore. And you know that's that may change our lives a little bit and maybe more of pain in the s, but you know, for the to keep enjoying what we're enjoying is well worth that sacrifice. I also think that it's time for the hunting community and your listeners and Steve's you know, we just I mean, the obsession with bigger and bigger racks, it's going to kill hunting eventually. I mean, to the extent that you know, that is what it's driving the shooting facilities were some jackass can fly in from Wall Street and shoot a three inch deer that afternoon and have it on us wall in a week. Yeah, that's not hunting, and you can't you know, sort of. I mean, I think our community needs to push back hard against that sort of stuff and dry up the demand. But these can hunts. Yeah, they're not helping the cause. And in a number of different ways there they're punching holes in the boat, that's for sure. Yeah, and that's just not what hunts about. I mean, that's and it's you know, if you're an outsider, your skeptical hunting in the first place, and this is what you see, I mean, you're not gonna you're not going to accept that. No. No, it sheds shines a horrible light on on what hunting is and and leads to a lot of misperceptions and uh causes causes a lot of trouble. I'm I'm right there within that, yep. So do you have any more really fun topics like this that we should cover or or is there anything that you are actually optimistic about that we should that we should close on. You know, I think I've talked about the things I'm optimistic about. I mean, I actually, you know, I'm always optimistic because I always think we can do better. And I think that if you think about the last year silver lining coronavirus, is that a lot of people who had either left the sport or would never tried it got back in hunting and fishing. Me and the hunting numbers look like it was a five plus growth from and that is huge. Fishing's going to be at least ten and uh, you know that is a ton of new folks in and yeah, some people complain that it's more crowding, but listen, I mean this is a good thing. I mean they're paying into the conservation system. There are the future stewards of these resources. There are the folks who were gonna right to Congress and asked that, you know, conservation be maintained. So you know, I'm excited about how do we convert you know, all these new hunters and anglers into conservations. And uh, you know that is you know, we've talked with our federal you know, our corporate partners about you know, we had Chris Mets, the CEO of Vista which is Federal, and Rammington Ammunition and a bunch of other outdoor brands. You know, he was talking about that. We had Dave bullthis the president of Pure Fishing, you know, in the same call, talking about how they're going to try to maintain that growth in the fishing side. But that's exciting and that's fun, and that's you know, after years of just seeing these declining numbers, you know, this is you know, I think it's pretty cool and I think it's something else toinet excited about. Yeah, that that is, like you said that, the silver lining and definitely an opportunity. I mean, that's and it's a thing that's probably I don't know. It seems like this is a once in the generation kind of up swell that we have here that we either take advantage of or or we let recede back into the past. So so hopefully it's something where we can help them. You know, remember, you know how hard it is to get into this sport if you're not from you know, if you didn't your father didn't show you how to do it, or your mom didn't show you. I mean, you know, so I think it's coming on all of us to embrace these new hunters and anglers, said, welcome them in. You teach him the ethics, teach them the proper way to do things, teach them about you know, if you see somebody's truck there and don't go into that same area, goes someplace else. You know, all these things that they may not know on their own, but you know, they're not going to learn unless we embrace them and teach them. Yeah, yeah, very true. So so with for folks listening who have maybe not traditionally dove into the advocacy or conservation related things, but they were curious enough to listen to this one because they want to know what's going on. Maybe it's even some of these new hunters or new anglers who have gotten interest in trying it out, and so they're listening to this and they're kind of realizing that, Wow, there's a lot of things going on around me that are impacting whether or not we can hunt or fish, or whether there's places to hunt and fish and critters out there. For somebody like that who, now, you know, kind of wants to take another step, not in take an action, but in learning. Are there any books, books, or films or documentaries there anything out there that has inspired you or you might suggest folks check out if they want to kind of broaden the horizons on these types of topics. Well, I mean, first of all, this you and I have not talked about this. This is not a shameless plug, but they ought to read your book, you know, That Wild Country, which really talks about, you know, sort of the public land experience, which you know, a lot of hunting and fishing in this country takes place on. And I think you've made it accessible in that book and something that people can learn a lot from and be inspired from you. So I think that's you know, one place. And but even go back to the early stuff. I mean, you know, a Sand County Albanic all the Leopold is you know, reads as relevant today as it did back in the ninety and it is, you know, a phenomenal book about you know, the ethics of land and hunting. And I just know I can't recommend that, you know, yeah, heavily enough. Go back and read a biography of Theodore Roosevelt, one of the Morriss biographies to talk about, you know, building that public land network, among other things. Read Tim Egan's The Big Burn you know that really talks about you know, that period in the early nineteen hundreds when the forest fires were sweeping and it was you know, the Forest Service and our public lands really on a knife edge. And you know that, you know, the experiences from that whole catastrophe really strengthened what is now our public land network. So I just think there's a ton of really interesting stuff out there in our community, um, that you know, folks can look at and learn more about. And I'm only scratching the surface, but you have your listeners and your comment section recommend their favorites. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's a whole bunch I have not read. There's a lot of good ones out there, that's for sure. Um. Okay. Next kind of final thing then, would be of all the things we talked about, We've talked about a lot of far ranging issues or ide is that folks could be you know, possibly taking action on, thinking about or trying to help move the needle on what what's your top priority of everything we've talked about. If you want to leave our listeners with one thing that they should do something about right now, one action they should take, what would that be way in a CWD. I mean, you know that is you know, as as a crisis right now. We need funding for surveillance and testing. We need to do the research. We need to stop the spread of this thing because the consequences if it does jump to humans are catastrophic. Um. You know that is you know, the short term one. I mean, it's not too difficult, not what we need to do. But then you know, longer term, I mean it's you know, we have a unique system in this country and engage I mean engaged you know in your local you know, national forest and this planning rule, Engage in federal legislation. You know, there are a multiple ways you can engage in things that make a difference hunting and fishing this country, and a lot of them are not terribly sexy. Um. But you know, if we don't we as hunters and anglers, don't stand up and support this system and maintain it, it's not going to be there in the future. Very very true. And we're awfully lucky that other people did that in the past and now we get to benefit from us. So so I'm right there where you went. We need to keep passing on forward. If if people want to, if people want to connect with what you guys are doing over the RCP. Can you give us a scoop on where to find that? Should we sign up for the newsletter other things like that too, Yeah, definitely. Um. You know, sign up is free. To be a supporter. You can throw some money at us. You get a hat or or vis Humulos rod or Browning shotgun, depending on how much money you want to throw us. Um. But if you just sign up as a supporter, you will get a weekly newsletter, you will get updates on things, you'll get alerts us to want something. If you identify what you're interested in, the things you care about are popping up. But then also you know support, you know, our variety of partner groups. You know, support your local physicists, Rubber Chapter, National Deer Association, Yeah, the Old Deer Foundation, you know whatever it is, because those groups do amazing work on the ground. But if you want to find out more about us, you can go to www dot TRCP dot org. And I think it's pretty easy to navigate our site and enjoy. Yeah, I'll I'll laugh out a little plug here since you plugged my book so nicely. I absolutely would recommend folks listening to sign up for that newsletter and become a supporter. It really is. You know, one of the biggest challenges with being able to engage on a lot of these wildlife and habitat related issues is just keeping track of the million different things out there that are happening. And if if you're not proactive about keeping tabs and what's happening with our public lands or wildlife, our conservation related issues, it's really easy for a lot of that stuff to just happen and you never know it. But you guys do as good of a job as just about any as far as keeping you know, us up to date on important things going on. You've got a lot of great articles on the website that provide updates on current issues, on legislation, on priorities that we should be you know, talking to our representatives about different stuff like that. I mean, it's it's really been a great resource for me. So I can't I can't recommend it enough. Um, and I just I just want to thank you with for the great work that you and your your team is doing. I I appreciate it, and I appreciate your time here today. Hey listen, I know we'd all rather be talking about, you know, patterning white tales and things like that, but every now and then we gotta gotta make sure we have that opportunity of the future. So thank you for raising the issues. Absolutely what. I appreciate your time. Let's do this again, all right, sounds great, Mark, Thank you, and that's gonna do it. Thank you all for tuning in. Appreciate you listening, Appreciate you being a part of this awesome hunting fishing family we have. Thanks for taking action when you can, for speaking up for wild places and wild things, and uh for being a deer hunter, because being a deer hunter is a pretty damn cool thing to be. I certainly am proud to be one, proud that it's my lifestyle. And uh I'm looking forward to getting out there and seeing some big velvet bucks here and just a matter of weeks, probably weeks or months by the time this suckers out. So until then, until next time, thank you, and stay wired to hunt.

Save this episode