00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four thirteen. In today's the show, I'm joined by West Virginia bow hunter Josh Ilderton to discuss his aggressive on the ground tactics for hunting white tails. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X, and today the show, I'm joined by Josh Ilderton, and Josh is a southern West Virginia bow hunter most well known across most of the country for his work on the Untamed YouTube series. On this video series, Josh and a group of other avid hunters and houndsman chase bucks and bears across West Virginia and several other nearby states. But from a white tailed perspective, what I think sets Josh apart the most is his penchant for chasing bucks on the ground. His self proclaimed favorite white hunt is glassing up white tails from a distance and then putting on a stalk until he can get into bow range. And he's doing this, and I mean, it's the big rugged wooded mountains of West Virginia, and it is it's really impressive what he's been able to pull off. Not to mention it looks like a lot of fun. I've I've followed a lot of what they're doing down there. It's it's crazy what he's pulling off. And it's got me, you know, personally, more and more intrigued by the possibilities that white tail hunting from the ground offers. Um. You know, this is something that I think people are discovering is more and more what's the right word I'm looking for, possible. I guess you're seeing folks like Jarre with white tail a dread and winner, Zach with the hunting public, now Josh over here with the untamed people that are showing that, yeah, you don't need to sit in a tree stand or saddled killed deer. You can do it in really different kinds of ways. And I love that. That's one of my absolute most favorite things that has come out of this entire podcast. The last however many years I've been doing this has been getting to learn about the million different ways you can do this thing. You can hunt deer in so many different ways, and I'm just personally, uh, just fascinated by the process of trying to figure out all those different types of styles and strategies and each different one just uh, I don't know. It gets me really interested and curious. And today, for sure is an example that Uh. Josh is someone who I think, you know, I definitely learned a lot from I think that all of you will be able to learn something from this, whether you're hunt in West Virginia or Wyoming or points in between. I really think you're gonna get some ideas here you can add to your own white till hunting arsenal um. We talk about, you know, how to find good country, how to glass, specific tips on glassing for white tails. We talk about when to stalk in on one and when not to stalk on them. We talk about all sorts of advice for how to move on the ground when trying to approach a deer in this kind of situation. We talked about taking on the ground shots. Um, gosh, I don't know. This one went long. It was interesting. It kept me personally just just riveted the entire time. So I trust you'll feel the same way. I hope you do. I hope you enjoy this, I'm gonna stop blathering on. I'm just gonna let you get into it. So now, without further ado, my conversation with Josh Elderton. Thanks for listening. All right here with me now on the line is Josh Elderton. Josh, welcome to the show. Hey, Mark, how are you the Satan? I am really good and excited to talk to you. How about yourself? I'm doing great, buddy. I'm an Alabama current turkey hunting this week for the opening week of spring turkey season. And uh, We've been down here since last Thursday, Kirk and I have and so anytime I'm in the woods, I'm pretty happy. You can't beat that. How's the turkey hunting done? It has been slow. You know that the birds aren't just they're just not talking a whole lot. Um. We end up I killed one this morning, but we even thank you. We've hunted hard dough and we hunted National fourth and I mean, there are so many people up there, and we've heard a couple of birds, but they're pretty tight lipped and hind picked and um, just tough hunting. We drove south four and a half hours yesterday. We we broke our our tent camp down and said let's go somewhere else. And uh, we drove four and a half hours further south in Alabama and uh ran out to some public excuse me last night, to roosts and birds, and we were unsuccessful. And then we went on a Marine Corps buddy of mine has a lease and he said, man, and he said, we don't turkey, and he said all the more and welcome. So and they're not turkey hunter. So you never do know what to expect when people are giving you information. Uh. But we went out there this morning and didn't strike any birds. And about an hour after day, like, I heard a couple of gobbles and running jumped on them and ended up killing one. So it's been tough hunting, but that's part of it. It's called hunting, not killing that. Uh. Sometimes that tougher, longer pricess makes it that much sweeter. Yeah, I mean, and that's that's in every everything we do, I mean, and everything you do, the sacrifices you make in hunting and and everything I do. I mean, when you when you have to sacrifice, it does make it feel better when when you find that success. Yeah, do you find that to be a little bit of what shifting deer hunting is that a little bit of why you deer hunt the way you do do you do you purposefully kind of seek out that harder, more challenging process than some other things you could do. Um Mark tell you truth, I don't the way I hunt. I've hunted it. I've hunted that way for so long. I don't find it hard. I find it hard to for these guys. There are so many hunters. There are just better hunters and deer hunters than I am. And I see them. I mean even in the area that we're from. I mean, uh, in southern West Virginia. These guys that sitting tree stands day in day out. I think those guys are hardcore. I really do. I mean I give them, I give them out of boys, I'll give them round up, applause and everything. I'm just not gonna do it. I mean, I like being on the ground and chasing them and covering, covering terrain and using train and because once you, once you find success in it, why don't you kill your first year on the ground, you will be committed to hunting on the ground for a long time, and you're gonna fail way more than you're going to succeed. So tell me this, Josh, tell me. Let's say I don't. Let's say you're at the bar and you bump into some fellow hunters and they're talking to you, and you get into I don't know if debating, but you end up talking about their style of hunting versus your style of hunting. And let's say that for whatever reason, you had to convince them to give it a shot, to give the ground hunting kind of spotting stock style you use a shot. If you were going to pitch them on why they should, what would your pitch be? My pitch would be a couple of different selling points. One is, when you're on the ground hunting, you learn about everything else in that area along with the deer. Um. That's the that's the biggest advantage of ground huning for me, is is learning. I mean, and I know it sounds minute, but learning where the squirrels are cutting. I mean, if the squirrels are cutting acrons, most likely the deer's eating new acrons too, right there. Uh, squirrels ain't gonna eat brought acrens. Um. You'll learn, You'll learn where the bears are Uh, you'll learn the train. The train is is so important. Uh, when when you're hunting on the ground and when you you can learn everything and you're throwing a whole wealth of information in there. Two better yourself as a woodman, not just as a hunter. And that that's what's important to me. And and it's action packed. I mean, it's not always action pact. I'll take that back. I mean there might be days that you don't see any deer, and now I've had plenty of them, but most of the time, I at least see deer or see wildlife. It might be bare or wild hogs, h or squirrels or turkey and stuff. And I'm not hunting. But um, you're always you always seem to be in the wildlife. You always seem to be in the mix with something. Uh. And you know I hang too. I mean there's days that you know that I'm in a saddle from daylight the dark. I've done it days in a row. Um, it's just not my for third style. I me, hanging in a tree is not my preferred style. I mean, it just doesn't work for me because it's not a it's a it's not an opportunity opportunistic approach, if that makes sense. Yeah, you you'd rather go get them than wait for them to to fall in your lap. Yeah. I mean I've hunted one specific deer that I've actually put time in my whole life, and that was this past season. Um, that's the only deer that I've ever gave up six weeks in my hunting season four and uh, it got killed by somebody else, and congratulate him. I mean it was you know, I think it grows. Two hundred seventy four is eight point wow. Um. And I'm usually an opportunity hunter. I mean, if if I'm hunting it and it took us my fancies and I'm going to go after it, I don't care if it's a dred teen inch deer a hundred seventy Um. It's all in personal preference on on what gets you excited when you're out there in the woods. And I think that me hunting on the ground gives me the best opportunities for that then hanging in a tree. Yeah, now, am I right? That? From from some of the things I've I've seen and heard that big buck the year after last year, you spent a lot of that time hanging for him from a tree. Why why did you feel like in this case with this buck, you had to hang up in the tree, which is you're not preferred style. Well, I've had that buck since sixteen, and I've talked about I've talked about this, dear a couple of times. Um, and I watched him and watched him and I und anyone on the ground and it's nothing but timber up there. And I don't know it if you've hunted white tail in the big timber mark on the ground, not on the ground. Yeah, so you know it's extremely tough. I mean I found success ah a couple of times, but most of the time when I'm hunting in the timber, you know, I'm trying to educate myself and if an opportunity to presents itself, then I'll take it. Um. And I hunted him on the ground in two thousand. I saw him twice in two thousand. No, no, that two thousand nineteen. I'm sorry. So it's two years ago on the ground. And then I had him about eighty yards and two thousand twenty two nineteen, I'm sorry December, Um, and he busted us. Was some doze busted us and he took off. But I thought that year was like his big potential year. Uh. And I had a lot of pressure hunting on me that year in nineteen and I only hunted that up there on it in that section for like five days that year at it and I've seen him three times. Um. So coming into two thousand twenty, I had put some uh cameras out and I and I get very few pictures anyway, because there's just not a lot of deer in that area. And I didn't get any pictures. And then August I wake up and like I started, I mean like I jump up into bed, and you know, it's like I had the dag on lottery. You know, my wife's going, what is wrong with you? I was like, he's alive, you know, And I mean he was just a freak. And and and I'll send you, I'll send you a couple of pictures at him, nowaday, I got your number. And yeah. Uh So, once I got pictures of him, then I piled in there and and ran a lot of game cameras. Um And the funny thing, Mark is that you know, I put a lot of time into it, and I was I never saw him this year on the hoof and I was within I think four four or five times I was within sixty yards of him and never saw him because one of one of the way I set my game cameras up, I would be hunting a point and one of my game cameras on a on a down trail would go off and I I use cell cameras and regular cameras, but I'd get on there and there he was walking past one of my cell cameras on a trail. H See that happen. That happened to me. I think it was four or five times this year. And see I used when I used my trail cameras more, I'll have a hub like I got his picture on on this Uh. And you gotta you gotta realize in southern West Virginia that you're gonna go up and you're gonna come down just as fast. I mean, there real Steve, and you pick up and it's fifteen ft wide at the top and you go straight back down the other side to the drain. So just kind of imagine that. And then you got coal seams in the mountain and from years and years ago, they all they'll have prospect roads where they went around and checked the coal seam. So you'll have flats at the coal sea levels. Going down the mountain. It's either prospect roads or old skid roads for your loggers. And so I found him on one of those flats. So from that point, I put cameras all the way around that flat, within like maybe two hundred yards, on different trails. And when I say cameras, I had thirteen cameras on his deer. Uh. I put him on every trail, um, every place that I thought he would cross, even if it wasn't a trail anything low gaps, I mean through tight little funnels, through rocks maybe, and so on. Out of those thirteen cameras I found him on, i'd get him on four or five cameras. So then i'd go get the other cameras and i'd move them around those four or five cameras. Um. So it's a real process. But you know, it just didn't work out for me. I mean I was close, uh, and I lay at at prime time in West Virginia is usually like the twelve through of November, and I laugh to go to Missouri to bow hunt, and he got killed the third or fourth day I was in Missouri, but already killed a deer. Um. I killed a deer on the ground I think November one or second. So I've given up and I was hoping that he would make it through the year. Do you do you feel now having had all that happen. You put in a lot of time, a lot of work, and then he got killed by someone else. It didn't work out for you. Do you have any regrets about doing this kind of style this year in which you waited and focus on one deer and really put a lot of time, or or you okay with it that didn't turn out and you're you're glad because it was a shot you were willing to take even though you knew you might miss um. No, I mean I I don't have any regrets. I mean, do I which I'd have done? I mean, I don't know if I could have done anything different. You know, when you kill a deer and then everybody starts going, why had pictures of him? And I was doing this and then I got I got these and they start sending, you know, pictures come out of the woodwork when deer gets killed, and I was in his bedroom. I felt like more. But come to find out, when some people sent me pictures or they start posting pictures of him and then looking at time stamps and stuff. Man, I was I was out of the hunt probably sixty percent of the time. Man that I was there, um and didn't even realize it. And I and and the deer was so nomadic that you know, I would get a picture of him, you know, four five, six hours, and I would know he would be in an area. But then going back and looking at timestamps on other camera fagers, I mean that there was gone. He was nowhere near me. When I was hunting, he was you know, eight d nine hundred yards away in straight line. And so I don't have any regrets. I mean, I mean I laid late on his deer in different areas, uh, trying to figure him out. Uh. And I was unsuccessful at us. I mean that that that probably bothers me more than anything. That I didn't fail, but I mean I was just unsuccessful after putting them that much time. I mean I had in nine days in the ruin. Did said, dear that you talked about mentally challenging that will challenge you. Um, So that that bothers me. But you know what it is what it is. I'm and congratulate that boy who killed him. Uh. I have it helped me that I will never um pinpoint one deer and go after I'm all for the bow hunters that do that, and the rifle hunters and any deer hunter that does that. They want to go after a specific and one for it may I'm I'm gonna go and I'm I'm gonna be I'm gonna be me and hunt my style. If I see a deer I want to kill that, I'm gonna go after it. Yeah, um for now on. Well, it's uh, it's interesting to go through experience like that. I've I've had some somewhat similar situations and and I wrestled back and forth between you know, do I ever want to do that again? There's there's certain things about it I love. There's certain things where I'm kicking myself about it afterwards, and and I I've had a handful of times where I've sworn it off. I'll never get obsessed with a single buck again, and then the next year or two years later, one of these suckers gets under my skin in and there um again. So it me. But I feel like when you and it might just be me, but I feel like when you go all in on that one, dear, it consumes you. I mean, it doesn't only consume you in your outdoor life. It consumes you in your personal life. It can affect and I mean I've seen it. I mean I know I've felt it. Uh. You know, I wasn't worried, uh if I wasn't gonna make it home for dinner. I wasn't worried if I was canceling the date night. You know, I'm I'm hunting, and that's not the That's not the right thing to do, um because it will consume you and affect stuff outside of hunting. And when it does that, then I think it's the wrong thing to do. And I'm just not going to let it affect me like that anymore. Yeah, it could be a slippery slope, that's for sure. So let's let's kind of pivot to your usual style, which is what you turned to on November one and immediately had success this past year, which I want to dive into that specifically at some point, but let's rewind just a little bit and just kind of set the stage a little bit more. You mentioned, you know, at the top that you like to hunt on the ground, you like to get get after those deer. You mentioned that the terrain there in southern West Virginia is you know, steep up and down. But can you paint a little bit more of a picture of the kind of terrain, um any other aspects of the terrain that you're hunting. Can you just help us better understand that types of places both specifically where you hunt and more generally the kinds of places that you could hunt this style. Yeah, so I grew up hunting. We in West Virginia. We call out to southern four and that's the the four out of the fifty counties in West Virginia or bow hunting only. Okay, I have been since I think it was seventy nine, but right around that area that it's been bow hunting only since then. Southern West Virginia, those southern four counties is also for the top producing coal counties in the state. And and with coal you have surface mining. Well surface mining comes through. They take the mountains off and they put the mountains back, but then you have great vegetation once they put it back, and it's not the big timber hardwoods. Yeah, it will come back in years to come, but like when it's five to ten years with of it shutting down, you have and I've never I've never hunted in Kansas or i or anything like that more. Um, but I've seen a lot of videos and a lot of footage from out there, and you have kind of the u in Nebraska. You kind of it's not like open plains. But it's when they reclaim these minds, uh, it comes back and you know they're they're thick brush, there's high grasses, there's clover. It's kind of rolling hills. But then you get you get away from the strip and that's what that's kind of one terrain model is kind of it's your open prayers are sitting up on top of these mountains, if that makes sense. It's it's kind of you kind of flip flop it because of coal mining. You know, usually your bottom lands are rolling and grass and got your thickets and stuff, and then you kind of go up to your timber well. In southern West Virginia, it's kind of flip flop because of mining and reclamation process. M you when they reclaim you kind of have all that flat, rolling land up on top and then you moved down to the hardwoods from there. Uh, that's that's some of the biggest train that we hunt. And then the other train is, like I was saying before, if you're hunting the timber in southern West Virginia and or southeast Ohio, Southeast Ohio, you know, you're just hunting the big woods, and you know where we're hunt in Ohio. It's the same. It's pretty much the same area and not quite the elevation as in southern West Virginia, but it's steep, it's nasty, um, and you know, it's it's not any fun to think about it, but like when you're there, like you don't want to be anywhere else, you know what I mean? I mean like, uh, West Virginia is like one of them, in my opinion, one of the most underrated places to hunt. Now. It's hard as hell, but it could be very the rewards could be very very Hi. Yeah, so do you do you so? It sounds like you hunt some places that are relatively open, some places that are heavily wooded, But both of those types of areas have got some significant terrain to them, some topography to them. Um, do you think that's kind of a pre wreck to your way of hunting. You needs some elevations, some up and down. Or could someone listen to you today that lives in flat country in Michigan maybe, or or Ohio, but not in the hilly part of Ohio. Could they take some of this stuff and apply it even in flat stuff? Absolutely. I was in o How Jay and I were hunting in Ohio. Um, I don't know, Mark five or six years ago, and it was my first time out there on this property. And we're hunting in uh western Ohio. We're a lot flatter. I mean, it's pretty much flat as a pancake. And he said, where you gonna hunt this evening? If you looked? And I said, I said yes, I said, I said, I'm going to just hunt on the ground. He said, Josh, he took people in Ohio. You don't hunt on the ground in Ohio. And I said, well, I hunt on the ground everywhere. And he said, well, you're not gonna do it here. You You're not gonna do anything but bust everything out. And so we sat there and talked about it, and I told me, I said, well here's what I'll do. I said, You're going to over here to getting this stand. I said, I'll stay completely away from you, but I'm gonna hunt the the back block and the sideblock. I said, if I do bump everything out like you said, I said, everything's gonna feed up to you through through the through the spring. And he said, well, and he said, I just think you're wasting your time. And this is what this is. Before Jay started ground hunting. So I'm in Ohio flat nasty. I mean, it's it's dick it kind of vegetation. And I hunt that whole afternoon and the key uh, well, I hunt that whole afternoon. I ended up seeing I don't know, twenty or deer. Uh. I saw two shooters and I end up bumping one to Jay and I and Jay he texted me says, hey, man, I just shot it. I just shot a big eight point. And I was like, man, I was just looking at an eight point, you know, ten minutes ago. And I said, I said, I'll go ahead and and come out of here. I said, I'll just start working my way up through the c RP and and I'll be up there in an hour or so. And He's like, okay, So and I'm in CRP now, and you know that stuff is just grabbing hold of you and and it's just nasty. There's no lanes and I'm trying to work through it. It's probably be waist high, but I'm still hunting now. And I look and there's there's a patch of and I have no idea why there's four second more treason. Why the farmer left him in the middle of his field in the middle of this this c RP. And I look and I catch a sunlight glimpse. You know, it's just one of those photographic memory type of things when you look at something so much that you you know, you look for different things on the deer when you're on the ground, and like, I catch a tip of the tip of a glare and I stopped and I was like, man, I think it's a deer when I looked, and it was. And I finally saw him move after looking at him for like fifteen minutes, and he was a stud of a ten point. And so I started sneaking on it there and and not within twenty yards and it was getting dark on me and when was perfect and everything, and Jay was actually in the tree stand on the hedgerow two fifty yards from me, watching me and he's texting me, and this is after the fact that I get his message. He's like, what are you doing? And you know, he sees me sneaking towards these sycamore trees. Well it starts getting I'm losing lights. So I I stand up and pulled back and whistled at this deer and he still didn't hear me. I had to win in my my advantage too, and he still didn't he Mary and I ended up having to holler an him and Howard Hay And when I did that, you know, typically white tells will stand up, check everything and then take off. You'll have a few seconds. But this deer bound out like a mule deer, and you know it didn't get a shot. But it was an absolute great evening. And Jay and I were talking. He's like, dude, he said, let me dear you said, I told him, and then he saw me stalk up on that ten point and I said, when I seemed deer and signed, I learned where they were bedding and everything. And he said, that's crazy. He said, he said, I've never never ground hunting, and now he ground hunts. Yeah, I mean that kind of experience will will sell you on it, that's for sure. Yeah, I mean, and that's that's the greatest thing. And when you're the biggest thing. When you're hunting the flat land, you just have to adjust your speed. Um. For me, I look my glass more move less and oh, I mean the flat land. You can only imagine how important you all use it when you're in a tree stand, uh of how important it is on the ground. So you know I'm constant uh wind checking and and glassing. Is that, you know the biggest thing I do. I mean, I was sitting glass and area in the timber and make sure that there is absolutely nothing there um and then sometimes there always is. And no matter what you you bump deer, but those there aren't going anywhere. They're just going far enough away from you to quit running. You know they're not they're not running out of the county. Everybody gets on to him and said, well, you're just gonna bump the deer out of the hunt area. Well you're not gonna bump him. You're just gonna bump him far enough to where he's just gonna get away from you. Now, if you go chasing and you're gonna you know, he's gonna run from you. You know, so I slowed down when I'm on flat ground, and like I said, I take less steps or slower steps should I say? And you know, constantly constantly glassing. Uh So those are the big things for UM for me when it comes to hunting those open areas. So let's go back home. Let's go back to your local stuff, the rough country of southern West Virginia, and that I'm guessing a lot of people in different parts of Appalachia could probably apply some of these things. UM talk talk me through from like the beginning of of a day. Let's say let's say you're heading out there to hunt. I'm imagining with that one of the first things you're trying to figure out is where am I gonna start? How do you pick where you're starting the day? What are you thinking about? What's your game plan? Kind of thought process? Look like, you know, the more that morning, when you're getting ready to go out or something like that, just just kind of filming on that first couple of steps of the process. Well, I'm gonna tell you that's the other big advantage of ground hunting more is that you ain't gonna be out ter until daylight. All right, I'm sold. That's all I had to hear. Yeah, you know, I do like I do like the aspects of not have to get extremely early. Uh. You know I can stop and everybody rushing to get to the tree stings. You know, I'm just starting having me a cup of a cup of coffee and get me a biscuit. So that's the that's the big advantage to start the day off right. Uh. But no, I mean a lot of places that I hunt, Um, I've hunted them for years, so I have. I've gone through and I've picked out these glass and um points and they they could be anywhere from a glass and point. That gives me the advantage to look at you hundreds of acres um or it could be just the glass and point. It gives me the best advantage to look at us a small scale. But I know there's a lot of deer activity there. You know. I'm just not glass in these open areas. More I'm glasting in the woods. I mean, uh, it's kind of like and I'm never Western hunting, um, but I see those guys glassing all the time. I mean, I'm I'm behind a spot scope and binoculars three or four or five hours. Uh some days, uh, you know, looking in the woods and trying to find dear bedded down. At that point, we're seeing where they're going. But normal day, I will I will choose the area to go in. Um I have already scouted that area, so not scouted it for animals, scouted it for vantage points to glass from. UM I don't really. Um, that's the only thing that all like like truly scout for. Uh. There's places where I can go sit and glass. And that's literally just having gone out there at other points of the year, walked around and drove around and found a couple of good vantigh points. Yeah. I mean it's it's going in and say, man, I wonder how much I can see from there or uh you know, And that's that's the It's very simple. You're finding, um, what area that you can see the most rain and the best train because there's bad train and there's good train. You know, you can't be glassing. We're there's no deer. You know, you've gotta be It's just like you don't want a honey where there's no deer, so you're not going to glass there. But that's that's the first thing that I do. I mean, I really don't you know, well, I just say, I really don't scout for deer mark I don't go out and I don't I'm not a shed hunter because I got so much other stuff going on. I don't have time to shed hunt. Um. I will look for trails and stuff and in the wintertime, but I'm just not a big scout deer scouter because I know that I'm gonna be learning stuff new every fall, because I'm gonna be moving in glassing um hunting on the ground. It's such a broad spectrum. Me. It's good to know that you have deer in that area where you're glassing. But I don't have to commit all that time to scouting. I'll commit it all the glass and once the once, you know, once August rolls around, I'll commit the time to just glass him. If that makes any sense. Yeah, so you do you do summer glassing to them, just tell if there's enough deer or bucks that kind of thing, and that that. Yeah, uh, you know, once I find find the vantage vantage points that I'm gonna blast from. I mean, that's kind of that's kind of the day. I mean, I move around if I glass in the area and I feel like I glass at uh to a point that you know, I don't feel like there's anything in there I want to go after. And that could be that could be thirty minutes, or it could be two hours, three hours or whatever. Um. I might see deer that are acting a certain way and I said, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna hang in here and see, you know, what they're acting weird about. Or you know, if if I think that that it's dose that might be coming into heat or a dough, then I might stay and watch and see if anything comes in thereafter. Um. It's there's so many situations when you when you're glass and that you can be put in. And that's the other great thing about it is, and I always go back to, you learn so much when you're hunting on the ground, and that's the reason because you you might take off after a deer that's on on its feet, you might take off after dear bedded uh. And if you're going after when they're on their feet, then you're making some decisions on where that there is gonna where you think that there's gonna be. If you don't, if you're unable to keep eyes on. Then you're taking some guesses and that's when you start learning on your assumptions of what that dear what you know, what that deer is gonna do when you lose you know, line of sight. But so I pick a place out, Um. I mean, I've got a chair that I carried and uh, you know, two or three sets of binoculars and spots cope. And I know it sounds crazy, but and I sit during glass and um and like I said, it might be there short time or a couple of hours and I'll moved to another spot. There's days that I might hit six or seven spots marking not see any deer. Do you glass if you have the time, will you glass all day? Or do you take the middle of the day off and go get lunch? Or what's that look like? Most most of the time when once, um, once season hits, I'm gonna say about the third week of September, first of October. UM, if I'm deer hunting and glass and I'm probably I'm probably committed to all day unless the weather is just jacked up and and it's too hot. That's the only thing that will affect me is if it gets hot, and I'm probably gonna take mid day off and be back up that that Sun said. Um but most of the time I stay out all day long. That is you know when I say that there are man there, there's people that that I I would love the podcast with because of their knowledge of deer hunting in southern West Virginia. They're just such good deer hunters and they killed deer and I killed dear. But I think the biggest thing like for me is I feel like nobody's gonna outwork me. Like I get opportunities because I stay there. I get opportunities because I go as much as I can, no wontter what So I think that that that gets paid off when you put your time in, you know what I mean? Um So, what about time of year? Now? You you may be kind of sort of answered it for me already saying that you know, once you get to late September or early October, you start spending most of the day when you can. But does this ground spotting stock style work for you early season all the way to the late season or is there kind of a sweet spot during the rut when most of the success is happening or can this happen anytime of the year. Oh, they're they're definitely better times to be out there than than others. But I mean I had on the ground all season long. The thing that affects us, affects me us is um is barre season there. There's a long season there that comes in around Labor Day for two or three weeks. So I really don't deer hunt a whole lot during that time unless it's an evening hunt after we've got done bear hunt. So I don't get started until late September deer hunting Martle. But it doesn't matter where. I mean, I hunted in Missouri. I had it on the ground three days and I was in nothing but Tember. Um. I didn't have any success, but I learned a lot. I think I'll have success if I go back to that area. Now, back to those glass and knobs. Um, talk to me a little bit about things you're I mean when you say glassing, I mean I know simply that's gonna mean you're you're looking at the country with your binoculars, with your spotting scope. But can you give us some details on you know, your glassing process. Is there any little tips or tricks you've picked up over the years that you now used to be better spotting deer behind buoculars or spine scope. Is there's certain prices you go through. Is there are certain you know you go from left or right and then move down the left or right and then down or what what does that look like for you? The the best way to learn the glasses and we usually, I mean usually there's two or three of us glass and and the best way to learn for us and for me too when I started hunt on the ground when I first got when I first got on the Marine Corps, there was a guy there and logan um. His name was Keith Alfred and he hunted on the ground a lot. And you know, I don't even know how we got buddied up, but we got buddied up. And uh, he's the one who got me into turkey hunting. And when I started deer hunting with him, and he'd hunted on the ground a little bit and spotting stalk and it just wasn't something you did there in that area in the early nineties or no, no not the early nights are of two thousands hells put an age on me and so we started doing that well, he and I wasn't very good at it. We would be looking and he said, okay, he said, I see, I see, you know, I see three does and uh, well he I wouldn't find him, and then he'd give me a couple of hints, and from the hints I would find them. And then once you found him, you know you're looking for that shiny black nose. You're looking for your ear flickers or ear shapes. The white patch on their necks is just a huge spotter. Um. You know, there are times glare uh you know their eyes uh, tail flicker. Um. And he would do that every time that he would spot a deer before me. He wouldn't say, well, there there's a deer right there at two hundred yards under that pine tree. We don't have a lot of pine trees. I'm just using as an example. Um. He would always say, I see a buck um in this in this area. And so so I started doing that. So now I'm glassing and I'll have somebody with me, and I'll say, okay, I see. You know, if i've deer, they're on the move. You know, they're moving east to west or south north, whatever it be. And the same thing will happen to me, is if somebody else is glassing with me, they will say, Okay, you know, I see a deer in this area, and so you have to find the deer that he spotted. And and I know it seems childish, but it helps train your eye and your brain to spot those uh different parts. You get to see what the guy glassing beside you sees to make him find that dear, you know what I mean. Yeah, definitely, I can see it. I can see it. They'll be helpful. Yeah. So it's it's like it's like a game. So you get in there and you're like, I want to find the first deer because I want to I don't want to have to find his deer. I wanna find my own deer, and then then he has to find it. So like you're looking real hard, um. But you know, most of the time, I always I'll start with the binoculars and the I scan when I scan, and I know it's gonna sound crazy, I I scan it long ws UM, so I go up and down across the hill. But they're not like drastic w is. They're flatter w is. If that makes sense, mark Um. And that's how I I scam with my binoculars is that flat ws all the way across, because in if you're if your wes are flat enough, let me explain this. If your do wes are flat enough, your field of view in your binoculars should cover the gap in between your down w Does that make sense? Yeah, you're you're you're gonna cover everything even though your main focus is that's right, that's exactly right. You're gonna cover everything with without actually covering everything that peripheral vision will will catch something on the edges. Yes, yeah, And then so my the way I scan as I was scanned across, and then I dropped back down and I come back, I don't go back over and start left the right. I then I zig zag going down. Um is the way I scan, and and it works for me. And then if I see an object that I'm unsure of, then I'll get behind the spots coat. And if I can't see it after that, then I moved to make sure I'll have somebody. If I'm by myself, then I'll just have to pick it up. But I usually leave somebody there just to keep me on line of sights so I can look at it from a different angle, whether it's you might only have to move twenty yards and you know you can see see something different. But that's that's pretty much how I glass and I carry I carry us at at twelve by fifties and I carry us at a timber forty two's binoculars. Uh and uh. And then I had my spots coat and then I have a small permon oculars that I use actually when I'm on the go. Now do you run your I knows on a tripod when you're glassing like that? Or do you just hand hold them? I hand hold? Okay, well, I say a hand hold, but I'm I'm a bone support person, so most of the time my elbows are inside of my thighs. Uh. And sitting there is mainly what I do. Um. But but I hand hold. I do like him off. I like him off a monopod. Um just I have used him off a monopod quite a bit. But most of the time I'm just hand holding my bios. And then you know, sponts coats on tripod and I'm a big angle sportscope guy. What was that? Ah? Just comfort because you know, when I'm sitting there, I can I can be looking over top with my bios and instead of me. No matter if I'm if I'm standing up, it doesn't matter. I'm always looking over top of my spotting scope. And then if I want to use my spotting scope, all I have to do is it's already set to my height. Is I just have to bend over and put my eye in the ipiece. If I am a straight spotting scat, you know, I gotta put my bionos down. I've either got a squat and and and that's fine if you're if you're only doing if you're only looking at a at a you know, a crow every two hours, that's fine if you want to squat down and look for me. But like if you're doing it for hours of the day, it's just easier for me to put my bonos on chest and I just bend my neck down and I'm already there in the I piece and I look. It's just more comfortable long term for me. So uh, And that's tony much my glass. I mean the and I recommend if you're going to hunt on the ground, you get good glass. You sacrifice. It's it's like anything, you you get what you pay for. Um and good glass will definitely contribute to success hunting on the ground. How much of your time hunting this way, if you had to make a rough ballpark, what percentage of your time spent hunting is glassing versus you know, stalking in and trying to make a kill? Is it is that it's probably the vast majority of your time, right, I should keep track of it. But if I had to guess, mark, I'm I'm probably glass in sixty seventy percent the time. Yeah, and I mean and I mean I'm if i'm if I'm deer hunting, I'm glass in sixty percent of time, I'm hanging probably sixty five percent time I'm glass and I'm hanging probably ten percent or fifteen percent time. And then I'm hunting on the ground twenty percent of time going after a deer. So let's talk about that part, going after one and and the decision that happens between glassing and going after one. How do you make the decision of when to go? So I'm gonna I'm not talking about like do I want to shoot that dear or not. Let's just say like you've determined like, yeah, that's a shooter. But how do you determine when's the right time to stop watching him and start going after Do you do you always wait for him to bed down, or do you always wait until he's you know, either that or he's out of sight or you know what are the things that make you think, Oh, I need to sit and wait and keep watching, or no, I gotta go right now. Most of the time, I'm gonna go right now, guy, Okay, there obviously sitting up there. Once I see it there, I want to shoot that man, my my heart and everything. You'd be running like a time and chain on my fronty car. You know, I'm ready to get after it, all right. I started getting excited, Mark, I get that. Yeah, so what Out of all the deer I've killed on the ground, two of them have been been deer that have betted. One of them was a deer that was bedded, and I went into his betting area because there was no chance of me getting a shot at him otherwise, so I got ultra aggressive and went into the betting area. Actually bumped him at at twenty five yards um and I was in waste the chest high thicket, and you know I was moving slow. I know it sounds like well, how the hell are you even moving? Um? But so most of there I've killed. I go after him as soon as I see him when they're on feet, okay, and what I was what I was getting to. So so you spot them and you're you're excited, so you're going after him right away. What are the things that you I'm sure that there's a couple of minutes or some number of moments after you spot him when you're thinking through a couple of key things. I'm betting that you're trying to think about, Okay, where is he gonna go? I'm betting that you're thinking about, like, you know, where do I need to go? I'm betting you're thinking about a couple other things. Can you just walk me through your thought process immediately after seeing him, Like, what do you need to check in your mental checklist before chasing him? Well, the absolute first thing that I check in once I once a figure rut that I'm gonna go after deer is I try to see what the wind is doing in that area, because the wind might might be doing the same thing over there, or that it is where I'm at. That's the you know, that's the joys of hunting and the terrible train that we hunting is the wind could be blowing north where I'm at, and a hundred and fifty yards where I see a deer, it could be blowing hard east. And so I checked the vegetation to see what the wind's doing where he's at number one, Uh, number two, I'm getting what gear I'm gonna do. You know, we we were gilly suits, our gilly suit that I made most of the time. Sometimes it's just too hot, too hot for him. Um. You know, we're getting our stuff up. There is time between the time that you spot that you're going through and making sure you have all everything you need for one before you take off after him. And because once you commit to a deer, you might be hell, you might be four or five six hours on a deer um and you're trying to figure out and there's you know, we get into Mark so many different situations. If he's with the dough, if it's with bachelor, a bachelor group, if it's early season, late season, if he's in the food, if he's not in the food, um, and so you're running all these things in your head and trying to figure out where he's gonna go and then you've got to figure out one are you going to go into a direct spot stalk or are you gonna try to ambush him? And you know, if you're going to ambush him, then you're gonna try to figure out where he's coming too or where he's going. Uh. Most of the time, I just try to stay right on him. Now I might I might end up going into an ambush strategy in the middle of a spot stock because something has changed. Uh. But those are the things that I'm thinking about when I get ready, goes, am, I gonna go after him where I'm am. I going to kind of take my time and then try to ambush him here where I think he's gonna go. And and when you say ambush, you mean essentially loop ahead of him to get where he's trying to go and be waiting there when he covers the final hunter yards or something. Right, Yeah, that's right. And and it might not be this, and it don't when you're thinking about this, mark, don't think about it as like you're gonna throw this big half mile loop. You might only move fifty y'all had to day ambushing. You might be in your spot stalk and he's moving going, Oh, he's gonna come up this drain over here. I just need to I need to jump around here and fiit the yards and then he's gonna come up. You know, it's just a situational based thing where on the ambush he's coming to you. On the spot stalk, you're going to him, is the way kind of I would explain it. You know, if you're in true spot stalk, then you're getting aggressive and you're going to the deer. If you're going to ambush him the deer, you're gonna let him come to you. Now, is there ever a set of conditions that would keep you from going after a buck? Like if his perfectly still and no when, no sound, anything, will that keep you from doing it? Or no matter what, you're gonna try it most most of the time, if I have time, I'm gonna I'm gonna try it. Yeah, okay, I mean I just think that I just think that there are very few opportunities once once you're out there. And I think that no matter what, and and and we go back and forth all the time talking about it, whether you it's okay to bump deer? Uh? Do you? And I've been on so many deer in in the past fifteen years, Um that I've bumped that day, and I've watched him run mark across the top of this strip mine six seven yards out of sight and be right back on that deer next day, you know, So you know, bumping them out, I mean, I'm not so worried about it because it could be another deer in there next day. I'm not. You know, when you're hunting on the ground, you're not You're being an opportunist. So I don't worry about bumping them. I mean, And the only thing that keeps me from going after a deer is if the wind is bad. If if if the wind's bad, I probably ain't gonna go after him. But there's always a different direction to go after him just because of the wind. So yeah, Now, on the topic of bumping deer, this was something I wondered about and and would always be something that I'd be concerned about, even though I get what you're saying that a lot of times these buck bucks will come right back the next day. What happens when you hunt, you know, day after day after day, do you ever find that you burn out a specific area or do you move around and hunt so many different areas in this big country that you never end up hunting the same you know, sixty acres over and over and over. You're you're kind of spreading out that pressure. Have you ever seen anything like that or you're able to account for just been moving? Yeah, I mean I moved quite a bit, but I mean I've laid in areas um for a few days on end hunting on the ground, Dear, I killed three years ago. I think it was three years ago. I think it was in two thousand seventeen or eight teen, Mark. I killed a big eight point on the ground and I was on that deer I think three days in a row, and in this I mean I'm talking about within the same same five yards. I was all over that deer. And I'm not talking about when I was on that deer. I was on him and he got away from me in fifteen minutes. I mean I was hours playing cat and mouse um with him, and and and two other bucks that was with him. They were in a bachelor group in early season, and it never affected those dear. I mean I'd be in there in the daytime chasing him and they come right back there. You know, that night feeding in that area and then I'd spot him again in the same grass that I crawled through the day before. H and it it never did bother him. Um. I mean I ended up killing it during and he got fourteen steps from me, and you know I shot him in the chest. Yeah, I saw that one. That was that was something. Yeah, so that dear, and he was with two other bucks And I'm tell you never affected and and I and Jay and I laid in a very small area mark for for three days chasing those deer. Uh and it never affected him. I mean, now the wind wind swirls bad up there, but I mean we had laid down, seeing I'm not I'm not the most sink and sink control guy. Uh So, I mean, I know we laid sent down, but it didn't seem to bother them. And but I've been in areas that we go and you might stay two days and you're not gonna see him deer in there for four or five days. Um, it could be because of our sin and we've laid it down and it's spoked him, or it could just be that they're just not in that area in these four or five days. So how much what kind of what kind of ground do you have in your back pocket? I mean, do you think that coming into a season, are you working with a couple of thousand acres worth the different chunks of public here and here and here that you've got to work with it you'll be bouncing around, or or do you focus on a couple of little hundred acre zones that you know are awesome, or do you have twenty different places and twenty thousand acres worth of different general areas that you could picking picking pick from across the course of the season. I'm just kind of curious that someone I would know what they should be thinking about. Well. I mean, say that Mark Kenyon want comes to southern West Virginia spotty stock, and let's say he does because he does you know, Say so you come down there and you don't know me, Okay, so you're coming down just off looking at the area and looking off mapping. I mean, we've got some We don't have a lot of public land, but the public land I got it. Man, It's it's it's hot. I mean, and I don't care to tell your listeners that, uh, we hunted public land big time there for a long time and we still hunt some public in Southwest Virginia. But one of the disadvantages of having a YouTube channel is that people find out where you're hunting, you know, and it is what it is. I'm glad more people are out there. I am, uh, but I don't hunt a lot of public in West Virginia anymore because of it. But I hunt public in Ohio, a lot of it, hunt all public in Ohio. UM. But in West Virginia. UM, we've been successful in in leasing land. It's in in so down and down in the southern four Most of your land is owned by land companies, and the land companies lease out to coal companies. UM. So I've been successful in and getting a couple of tracks of land leased in the last couple of years. UM. And you know when I go into the season, I mean, and I have a couple of permissions to hunt out some other coal mining land. I mean, if I had to guess, Mark, I mean, I'm looking at going into hunting season, you know, with eight to ten thousand acres of land that I can glass on. Um. But there's thirty two thousand acres in the w m A down there that is hot, you know. And we've seen we've seen monsters and I mean trace in eighteen, I mean we video a hymnspot stalking of Boone and Crockett in the way it ended up getting posched. Uh that there was was on the virgin making it through that year and he ended up getting poached. Ah. But after that year, you know, the crowdedness of hunters because of videos. You know, it got highly populated, if you know what I mean. Um, But it's still good hunting. You just have to you just have to work harder. Yeah, And there's I don't know, I think there's a half a dozen w mays throughout, um the southern four. I mean there's been people come down a hunter with me the last couple of years. More. And everybody always talks about swamp hunting being tough, but if you can imagine how big the area is in southern West Virginia and the habitats all the same, I mean, the deer there's next to impossible to um put any sort of pattern on them. Most of your your big trophy bucks are nomadic and they might come through where you got them on the pattern. They might come through there every three or four days, where they might come through every day. Uh, but it's very tough because of the habitat hell because it's all the same. Um, they can they could stop and just lay down anywhere and it's gonna be the same as they were the same type of trainings. If they moved two miles lay down to mar just extremely it. It's very tough white tail hunting. Um, but it would teach you a lot. Yeah. But speaking of that in in that kind of steep country, Uh, if you had to generalize where they typically bet, could you is there any kind of typical thing you could say, Well, they're usually are betting off on these points, are usually on these benches or whatever. Is there anything like that that you can kind of count as a as a usual Yeah, I mean, and and taking both types of trains, you know, on the on the strip jobs they all reclaimed mind lands. Uh. If it has grown up enough up on top, they're gonna nestle in in the in the high brush and the thick brush and stay up high to where the food source is. But now if the acorns hit, they're they're gonna probably be down off the woods. They're not gonna stay up on the strip, So they're gonna they're gonna be in the woods. So, and that's when you change strategies, and they can't go to the big timberance that hunting on the reclamation land. Uh. But if you're hunting in a big timber, I mean most of these most of these bucks are bedded on these points. Uh. And and these finger the spines is what we call them. Because when you got a point that's going straight up and down, it's not much of a point here, mark um. So, and then they're probably uh, I find most of your dear better than the that for two thirds of the hillside. Okay, But now if they if they can, if these reclaimed minds are grown up enough, they're gonna they're gonna stay up pine bed in that in that high brush. And and and that's where that's where I find most of them is bedded down in that reclaimed area. Then let's talk. Let's let's get them back to the stock. Then, so we we kind of covered the things you're thinking about when deciding to stock or not. But let's say you're you're you're going, you've got eyes on one and you're making your move. Now, can you talk me through a few of the things that you're doing or a few of the things you're thinking about when actually on the move. Um, you know, whether that's you know, some things you've learned to help you be a quiet right or more stealthy stalker, or some thing's uh that you have to be constantly monitoring on the move. Kind of walk me through what you're doing now that you've become so experienced at this when you're actually trying to close the distance. UM. My biggest thing is I'm I'm I bet you I don't know how many bottles I carry that up and smoke wind checker. Uh. And that's non non affiliated with me, but that's just something I use. But I'll bet you I'll go through four or five bottles a season. Uh. I squeeze it. I might take ten steps and squeeze it. Might take a step and squeeze it, you know. Um, So I'm constantly doing that, and then I'm constantly trying to keep eyes on. Um. That's that is the biggest advantage of hunting the and is if you keep eyes on, you can't keep eyes on, then you don't know if you move or not. And so then you're just you know you I don't know, and then you if you have a spotter that has eyes on and um, I'm always constable. I'm thinking if I stop and i'm glass and I'm stopping an area that I'm able to shoot in no matter what. And what I mean by that mark is is every place that I say that I'm gonna get to, where I'm gonna move to. When I get to that area, you know, I want to make sure that I can swing my bow and what my shots are at that point because everything can happen on the ground in a in an instant um. So I'm always thinking about can I shoot here or you know, I've got my right and find her swing and I'm always checking yard and just because I shoot, I shoot a one pen and I know a lot of people don't like that, uh, but i shoot a one pen archery site. So I'm constantly uh. And I pretty much range until I hit thirty yards and my range finder and that's what I range for it because I leave my sight on thirty yards. Um. But I practice with it thirty and shoot down to ten and out to fifty with it. UM. So I'm constantly ranging, constantly sent checking, and then I'm constantly moving. I mean I'm pretty aggressive hunter when it comes to moving on the deer. If I'm bumping, then I'm just giving him and myself. I give myself a time, you know, take a breath, but I'm giving that there just a minute to cool down, and then I'm going right back after him if I can. You know, I'm I'm not going I'm not gonna if I bump a deer, I'm not gonna give up on him and say, Okay, well let's go find another one. Um, I stay on that deer until so I know he's I ain't gonna have a chance at him, you know. Um. So that's kind of the thing that I'm that's going through my head is, Um, I don't a lot of people take their shoes off and have thick socks. I've never done that. Um. You know, I'm not much on thorns and rocks and stuff hitting my feet. Um So I just I keep my boots on. I word fair like Tennessee type boots. Um and Uh. A lot of time I'm running, and a lot of time I'm depending on what If I'm I'm trying to catch up with him or not. I mean, but if I bump him, I just keep on staying on him, and it's worked out sometimes and sometimes it doesn't work out. It's it's a funny thing when you're when you're hunting on the ground because you're anticipating so much to happen at every stop, but then none of those things happen. So then you then you take another mental note and go okay, and I need to move now. And then you stop again. You take a mental note, I need to okay, check your shot, check your win. You know, everything good. You know, we filmed too, so you're you know, I've got an extra man with me the whole time over my shoulder, which makes it just a different level. So I'm happy to make sure that he's good too, because he's rolling right along with me. And uh so they're just a multiple things running through your head. So it's a it's a constant mental battle of saying, Okay, it's going to happen here, and then something, you know, some quirk or something prinsent it doesn't happen. Well, then you've got to change modes and say, okay, take a breath, you know, take a step back, and then go go again. Um. And I like that part of it. I think that that's a challenging part of it is they are you Are you just going to tucktail and run or are you going to see if you close the deal? Yeah? Um, And like I said before, most of the time I'm unsuccessful, but I tend to connect all the dots sometimes try it long enough and it comes together, right. Yeah, I mean it. I mean everybody around around there knows our ground hunt. I mean I love it, and I have I have found success in it. Uh. I've learned a lot from it. I've had a lot of of failures in it too, but they're not failures really because you're always learning from them. But you know that there I killed last year. I think I was on that there four and a half hours more and I bumped that deer. Wom I bumped that deer five to seven times? Uh, And he was with the dough so that made it. That made it better for me, better for the hunter. Uh. And then he ran completely out of sight and Jake Cameraman he was like, man, he said, man, that sucks. He said, we had a lot of time in that there, and I was like, oh, we're not done. He said, it's a long way away. And I said, well, we'll we're going for a long walk, you know, and and it just so happened that I went, I walked that, we went all the way down there, and I watched that though in that buck bed down you know, a hundred and fifty yards blow me, you know. Just just sorry, sorry interrupt, but before you go any further. Yeah, I think this story maybe it is worth telling from the beginning because I think it illustrates a lot of stuff we talked about and it might be helpful. Can you just start from the beginning and kind of tell the story, but maybe point out some of the how to stuff that we've been covering throughout, um, and kind of walk us through how that began all the way up to this, because I when I watched this, I was kind of floored how it all came together and how many times you kept finding him despite him running off and all that. It was pretty interesting. So I'd love to maybe let's dive deep into that. Okay, So you know, that morning, we're glassing and I'm glassing from from you know, probably six or seven hundred yards way, and I see it, dear, and I can't tell really his size. Um, So we we take off in the truck and we swing around and then I get out of the truck when I think I get to an area where I think I can see him, but I'm not a sure because I lost I lost sight of him. Well, we crawl over this berm and we spot the deer and um and he bust us. You know, we're two hundred yards from him, and he sees me. I tried to get up on my knees on the berm, and he sees me, and he bust us with the dough and he starts chasing the dough across this bottom. Well, from that point on, he knows that we're there, he knows that something's up, but he also is chasing tail, you know, so he has to figure out what's best for him. Well, so we we take off running, and this deer's out of sight at this point, and I get up above him because the wind is you know, it's early in the morning, so the wind I can have a cross wind with the thermals are coming up out of the holler. They're rising because it got warm that day fast. So I get up above him and I'm I'm glass and again trying to find him, just trying to find a horn or whatever, and all of a sudden, he pops up sixty yards from us. Uh, and I'm like, oh my god, there he is, Jake, and and I'm thinking, hey, we're done for here. And we're sitting there looking at this deer and we're in a we're in a stair down for eight or ten minutes that we we don't move, and uh, he's looking at the dough, looking at us, looking at the dough, looking at us. And I'm telling Jake, I said, something's gonna happen here. You know, we're going So then the deer takes off the dough. Well, some other bucks get involved and they're chasing the deer around. Well, they start chasing deer, and I was like, well, this is time for us to move. Well, I watched him chase. They chase this dough around probably a hundred fifty yards and it gets in the real CRPS. It's not CRP in West Virginia, but it's that type of vegetation. Um, we don't cut people in some way it's CRP. But people in West Virginia considered they don't caught c RP. They just called a briar thicket, you know. And so we're waist deep in this. When I run, I take off running, and I'm gonna i'mnna interject one thing here, and I'm gonna I'm gonna do this throughout. I'm gonna kind of try to pick on little things. And this is one of the more general questions I had, but it applies here. And and so when you're deciding when to go fast versus when to go slow, what how do you make that decision, like when you're gonna run or try to cover a bunch of ground, or when you gotta sneak, I mean, is it? Is it simply? I mean, there's some obvious things like there's obviously he's gonna see you or hear you better. The simplest thing mark is and and people don't need overthinking. The simplest thing in your speed is distance between you and the deer. If you can walk to the deer and you're and he's not gonna leave, and the time constraints aren't going to make him leave, and hey, walk by all means um. But if if you know that that you need to move on that deer and get to him, that then you need to pick up the place. That's the it's it it. Don't overthink it. I mean, and you're foul it up. You'll think you need to run sometimes and you run heading eyes on them five yards you'll put You'll be running and go over the hill and then oh gosh, there he is, and then then it's over with. But then there's times that you might think you need to walk, and then by time you walk over, there be long gone. Uh So, if you if you have distance between you and the animal you're going after, my opinion is is you need to close that distance so you can get eyes on the deer because in the end, having eyes on is the most important thing that will tell you what you're gonna do and what you're gonna do next. How much, sorry, how much do you worry about other deer? So you know you gotta cover a bunch of ground, let's say, but what if there's a dole in between you and him or or are you little buck or something and you know that buck's getting further and further away, But now you've got a little buck standing in the way. Do you just blow that deer out because you want to keep moving, or do you stop and try not to spook any deer? Because he might spook your big buck. No, if it if it's if it's a shooter. If a shooter comes into range while I'm in the middle of a chase, then I then I shoot that deer. If it's any other deer, I could care less about him. I'm going I'm going to the deer I'm after. So you're not worried about those deer spooking on the target. No, I don't. If if they do spooking, mark you know, like I said, he's just gonna go into another area and then I'm just gonna go into that area and finding Yeah, okay, I mean I know that sounds bad, but these dear. So many people have a misconception that these deer are running a thousand yards from you when you if you bump them, and and they might, but a majority of there that I've bumped. If I give them a few minutes and I look at the train, and I can probably go in that area and find it dear in the next thirty minutes. If I give myself enough time to to the glass and look, I'm probably gonna find that dear again. And you'd be surprising. I mean, I mean, people would give up at that point because they think that there's gonna they're not running, they're running just because you scared them. It'd be like you you running, if you got scared of of something, You're gonna stop once you once you get away from it, unless it keeps on running after you. You know. It's the same thing on us, dear. I mean, um so, I say, if to decide your pace is how much distance you gotta get to keep eyes on the on the animal, And you might screw that up, but having eyes on is the number one thing, because that's gonna that's gonna tell you your next move. Yeah. Uh. And and so when that dear took off and I lost, I lost a line of sight with him, you know. And part of that was because of terrain I chose to. I chose to lose line of sight because I said that there, if he comes around this knob, then I'm gonna be good. If he doesn't, then I can use the knob as cover and I'll go up and over the knob and I'll be on top of the deer. Uh. Well, in that instance when I used that knobs train, the me and the deer actually met up on the knob and I bumped him again. Um, and I thought at that time, I did think that it was over at that point, um, and I watched the dear run. I don't know, he probably run two or three hundred yards. And as soon as he went over the hill, I took off running after him. I didn't worry about how much noise I was making in that brush. I just wanted to get eyes back on him. But when I got like fifty yards from the edge, I went to a crawl, not like a on fours on all fours crawled, but I started sneaking. Uh. And there was a couple of trees, if I remember right, there was a couple of pine trees right under on the edge where he had gone over. And I used those as cover walking up to the edge. And this is the edge of what this is the edge of a steep hill that he went over. Uh, it's grassy, train reclaimed brushy, it's just a slope, um and lo and behold. I got there, and you know you're you're just kind of going to the edge as you can see a little bit at a time, and all of a sudden, like seventy yards away, I see his times and I put my binners up, and I told think, I said, I said, man, I said, we're back in it. Man, I said, he's right here, and all that dear did. He ran like two hundred yards and went over that slope and he felt safe and he stopped um because the dough was back up there with us. Now, the dove eventually went down there with him, and so I at that point, I'm just watching him and so and this is when I got I kind of got aggressive because he was getting close to the timber and there was the major thicket between me in the woods, and then he was in the middle of us, and he was getting ready to get in that thicketing. I knew I wouldn't get a shot if he got in there. So I rounded the knob and I'm sneaking at this point because I don't know where he's at, don't know where the dough is at. And I go around the point and I told Jake, I said stop, I said, I said, dag on, I said, the does right here, and he was gonna wear and I was like like seven or eight steps in front of us, and and I'm thinking, man, this could be over, and I was like, I don't see him and but I hear him come, and I said, old old tar left. And I look and I see his horns and I see his face. I mean, he he pops up at nine yards from me, and I'm not even pointing, like I'm pointing at twelve. He pops up at ten and I can't move. All I'm doing is looking at him. And so we and it was crazy. And I don't know if we were in the shadows at that point, I can't have to go back and kind of look. But like that dear, I didn't see he saw us, and he knew something was wrong, but like they didn't blow out there or nothing to do, kind of just trotted off and he went right with her. Uh. And I kind of turned and ran back the way I came from, and I moved, and at that point I had moved too fast. I ran back around, and because I thought they kind of busted out there faster than they did. Well, then when I came back around, I actually they had come back down already. And this is only thirty seconds. All they did was just jump out of my line of sight. And I came back around the knob and and they weren't even they were alert but I bumped them again, and that's when they took off and ran a long way, and I was like, oh my gosh, uh, because I have them so close. I mean, I mean nine, archy mean you thump them, you know, I mean uh? And then you know it had been exhausting. I mean I think I've been on it there three or three nap hours at that time. Um bumping him and put his paint cat and mouse, and and Jake was like man. I was like, no, man, I said. He said it got hot, and he did get hot that day. And I said, well, did you bear strip your clothes off? We ain't stopping now. So we run down there, h and we got into a valley field and that's a that's an area that the strip mine throw they dump all the over burden and then they reclaiming it's really nice area, but it just lo and behold, Mark, I got down there. Something told me to go after him. And why did you, sorry, why did you After they ran off way off and disappeared, that what they got out to say right after the big long run. So just help me understand what why you went to that valley field? Was it simply because like that's the direction they're headed or how did you how did you pick him back up again? I guess in that well, my thought was, as I had been on it there for so long that they couldn't they couldn't stand it no more. I mean it was getting hot, They're going to have to stop. I mean they had been He had been running this dobefending, defending the dough from other sucks. He mounted that though at one point. Uh and and you know, did his thing there, So you know he's tired. I knew he was tired. Uh she's you know, he's done wore her out. Uh So what made me go after was like, man, you know what if they just got over to Valley Hill and they're just chilling out, you know, they just want to get away from everybody. Uh it's it's just like people. Uh So when I did, I decided to go after him, and and man, uh got over there, and I mean got to watch him bed down with her. I mean I was like, oh my gosh. So then we was able. I was able to kind of sit down and take a breath. I checked the wind and the wind was still coming straight up out of the holler, and I said, man, I said I'm gonna get a shot on this deer for sure, And so to the game plan together, and um, I went way around to get down on a level above him. Uh, and I started crossing it. Um. You know. It took about an hour or so to stalk in there and and got in above him. And I got in above him, and he stood up a couple of times and I thought I was gonna get a shot, and he just beed back down and I was like, oh man. And then it's just mentally draining because you're sitting there arranging him, and you range him one time and you know that's it, But then you start questioning yourself. Did I arrange him? He said? Is that the right range I catch? Did I catch grass? You know? And these are things that place in my mind, you know, because you start to get exhausted. And then uh, at the moment he stood up and and I pulled back when he stood up because I figured that would be my time to shoot. And you know, I sit there and held for probably thirty or forty five and before he gave me an angle because he was too steep. I don't like shooting that steep of an angle. But they're going away from you. But he turned perfect man and uh, I was ready to shoot, and and I put it through the boiler room, I mean and the and it was just a I got super pumped. And it wasn't the biggest deer I've ever killed, uh, but it was one of the most successful hunts that I've that I've done. Um. And you know, when you're on a deer like that, it's not always Uh. I don't know, well, I've never considered size of a measuring factor of how successful Huney is. But um, that was a good hunt. It was a good successful hunt, and there was a lot of stuff that went on during a hunt that that made me a better hunter. Um. And I think that's a big, big take on it. Two questions when it comes to you know, all of those you had a bunch of different moments where you're kind of stalking it on them, and you were closing the distance and getting close, and you mentioned how you're you're always puffing your bottle checking that wind. Uh. And you mentioned a couple of times thermals. Can you just walk me through anything else when it comes to wind, Like one of the things that some guys out west will typically try to do. Is is they like to stalk in with maybe a quartering two wind or across wind or or some people will always say, well I want the wind directly in my face. Like, well, they'll adjust their approach based on wind directions. Sometimes, Um, do you ever factor and wind above and beyond simply making sure it's not blowing to them? Or is it just as simple just make sure my wind is not blown to them, and then you don't care. Other factors are more important after that. What's what's your take there? I mean, I think wind is the most you know, besides the line of side is the most important factor, because sometimes I think that the winds wereld so bad down there where we hunt. Uh. I mean you you see that hunting um in that big eight point I was talking about earlier. Um, that wind was blowing directly at that deer for half of that hunt. And then you can see when I get down on the same level with him and he starts coming to us. At that wind, it's just rolling in circles. You can see it high grass, and you watch the wind go through that high grass and it's just blowing. It's just blowing in circles up or on top of that flat it's got there. No thermal's gonna knock it down or raise it up because you're you're so flat up there on top. But you can watch the wind in the video and it's just running round and round, and that deer it's just watching me. But for the first that evening when I killed that deer, I'm telling you, for the first forty five minutes at a hunt, that wind was blowing dead at him. I mean, you can hear me in the video. I said, when I bumped bumped him out of the bed, I said, don't go that way. And I said, oh, I said, I said, it's over, jay, I said, he's going, I said, and I counted down from five or three to one. I said, here he goes, and he stops, and he looks, and then he just goes about his business. And I mean, it's blowing right to him. And you know, I mean, I said, a heck. I said, if anyone borrow you angle ball me, I tell him coming. I'm coming after you. But because I want to thump him, How did you how do you figure you were able to get away with that? Why did why? Why did that work? Uh? Number one, that's set up that evening for that situation. Why it worked? And Uh one, I think I had the son uh at my back and I stayed in the shadows. And I don't think that dear I think that Dearre just he knew something was there, but like he didn't he didn't know what was going on or what it wasn't. He just wanted to get closer to figure out what I was. Um. But I stayed in the shadows so well that evening. And you know, if you stay in the shadows and you use the sun, I mean you you can you can blend in where nothing can see you pretty damn good. You know that was gonna be the next question I was gonna ask about two was was how often are you thinking about sun direction? Is that something that? Yeah? I mean concealment um, concealments you know, top three UM on the on the chart. For me, when I'm on the ground, it's you know, pretty much, I like to keep side of them. I checked my wind and then I tried to stay concealed. Um. But they're sometimes like they know you're there, so you might as well just get after it. You know, who cares if they see you? You know? Um? But I like to staying concealed, and I hate I hate, you know, looking like I'm a solar panel. You know, it's the worst feeling in the world when you're in that situation. And I and I was in this in this past fall. I mean, I think I even talked about it on that video. It was like, this is just terrible setup. This is a terrible situation right at that moment, not the whole stock, but like where I went to in the stock, Like it just wasn't a good situation at that moment. And I even mentioned it in the video. It's like, this just isn't good. I mean, we're shipping down here, We're like a big thing on Christmas tree lit up and it's just not good. Um. So you hate to put yourself there, but that's just the direction that that stock went and we end up getting out of that and getting back you know, tire advantage. But yeah, you don't want to light yourself up. That's in any type of hunt. And I think that that you do. Yeah, but yeah, it's that's definitely a you gotta consider all that. I mean, in every situation, mark is different, every hunt's different, um. And that's the greatest things. Probably the greatest thing about hunt on the ground is you might cover the same train, but it ain't gonna be the same hunt. How about shots? I know on that two thousand seventeen or eighteen hunt, when that buck came walking right up on you, you had to take a frontal shot. I know on that other the most recent season, you had that buck that was standing up and laying down and standing up for a long time, and it took a while. You know, what are some of the unique things you need to think about when hunting and shooting at ground level? Um? And maybe some unique shots like that frontal shot versus will you ever shoot at a bedded deer or do you always wait from the stand up? I'd be curious on your just your take on all that. Well, Uh, frontal shots, I'll take them every day as long as it's within twenty five yards, um. I And I caught I caught hale for taking that frontal shot. Um. But that deer didn't go any yards and he piled up like a sack of potatus, you know, um, and I feel comfortable taking that frontal shot. I ain't gonna take it out thirty thirty five yards because I'm not comfortable with that, but I'm gonna take it every day that one walks at me, or if I catch one, uh from probably yards and I'm taking it um then but then totally office that that deer this past fall was forty nine yards uh, and I could have slung an arrow at him when he was betted down. But that's not a good shot. That's not a good it's not. My opinion is it's not a good decision to shoot at any any deer to betted down. It's just a very hard shot. Uh. You might have you know odds that a deer is laying perfect for you to take a shot betted down. You know most of the time their their garden, their vitals when they're laying down. Um, from what I've experienced, So I don't take you, I don't. I don't think I have very I don't know if I shot at any better deer. Um. Oh I did, I did? H I shot at a better deer. Um. It was probably in tuoth day I was in or two thousand one, and it was in the big woods, uh that I that I spot and stalked on this big deer. I was chasing another big buck in the woods and then saw him with the dough and and turn my attention to him. And when I got over there, he was bedded down, and I shot at him bedded down. Uh, And it ended up being a mistake. I missed that deer. And but I think that's the only dear that I've shot at bettered down. I don't take that shot a lot, just because I don't like it. Um. But when you're when you're on the ground, you gotta be ready to shoot. And that's why I say you always check. You can't stop somewhere where you can't shoot, because if you do that enough times, you're gonna get caught with your bridges down. Uh. It's simple as that. So you gotta take what mistakes that could possibly happen out of the equation. You've gotta put everything in your odds that you can. And that's a simple thing. If you stop, that's the first thing that you're thinking about, is can I shoot right here? If you think about that every time, then that that that part of the equation is out. So now the odds are in your favor again. You know what I mean. You're trying to eliminate stuff that I'll screw you up? Uh that and it's perfect example Mark is Uh. I was in Ohio two days after I killed it dere in West Virginia this year. It was November three or fourth, I can't remember. And I got on the ground with a with a with a nice tin point. And do you know why that I didn't kill that dear Because when I tucked in it was a I mean, it's thinking perfect setup. When was perfect, I had perfect cover. Dere come forty yards a broadside. And the reason I didn't kill it there is because when I went to pull my bow back, the top half of my limb on my top limb on my bow teamed on an autumoblive branch and that dear blue and took off. That was not That was my mistake. It should not have happened. I beat myself for probably a good three or four days on that um because I normally don't. I mean, I make a lot of mistakes, but I normally don't make that mistake. I'm usually very in tune with my immediate surroundings, if that makes sense. Uh. You gotta be able to shoot to kill something, and I wasn't. And that's why I didn't get a shot at that dear and it was a puke. Um. And you gotta be ready for any shot. I mean, I think every every person uh has to find their comfort level on what they can shoot. There's been years Mark that I've told myself, a I'm not shooting. I'm not shooting past thirty five yards um. And I wouldn't because I didn't practice enough. I didn't uh put the reps in. This past year, I would have shot out to sixty yards and felt comfortable because I shot a lot. I practiced a lot, I put a lot of time in. So I think that that every person, to every every hunter, uh, they have to figure that out on themselves. Uh. Comfort live on shots. I mean, I don't shoot it better deer. If if you feel comfortable shooting a better deer more they have at it. Um. But I'll take a frontal shot and a lot of people won't take those. Um. But it's devastating when you hit him. Yeah, the you don't want that worst case scenario, well devastating if you hit him right and kill him. You're right, I was gonna. I was thinking of it as it would be devastating to hit and wound one though um, and not find it on the flip side. So it's like you said, you gotta be comfortable. It's got to be within your within your skill range, and in my time you put in and making sure you know how to handle those specific situations. So it's uh, it's all um, it's all situational and it's all within a within a person's skill set. So so what about this, Josh. We've kept you a long time, and it's because we've had a lot of really good stuff to cover. I've enjoyed it. Body me too. I could probably talk deer and hunt on the ground for six hours. Be careful what you what you pitch out there, because I might just to make you prove it. I left talking deer and on the ground stuff too. Uh Well, let me let me ask one last question and I'll let you get going because I know you've got to. You might have an early more in turkey hunting probably tomorrow. Um. For I'm just thinking of folks that are listening who have typically hunted from a tree stand or a saddle or whatever. They're typically elevated ambush hunters. But they've seen you doing this, They've seen Kirk doing this, they've seen Zach do this from th HP that they're seeing this more and more and they're thinking, man, I gotta give it a shot. Um. And I know you there's some people within your circle, some of your friends who have been stand hunters, who you've kind of converted to hunting the ground. What would you say the biggest mistake is that you've seen stand hunters making when they try to transition to this ground style. What's the biggest thing that folks need to avoid that And and this this is gonna sound uh corny, but it's it's the not wanting to make a mistake, if that makes any sense. M H. Stand hunters they don't want to get out of their comfort zone because they don't want to make mistakes. And that's I can tell you right now. You're hunting on the ground. Ain't nothing gonna be perfect. It ain't it ain't you know, double dips of ice cream in chocolate. It's Uh, you're gonna make mistakes, but the mistakes you gotta learn from him. It's it's it's like, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. Yeah. Uh, that's the same thing for hunters that have never grounded. Hell I think everybody how to get up there and try. Now, they might not like it. The thing to do is to uh is to go at your pace, but go at a deliberate pace. I know what your plan is, your mindset, get your mind right, and and be deliberate on how you hunt. Um and be focused is what you know what I mean. Um, that'd be my biggest advice. I mean, you're you're going to make mistakes. But there's so much information out there that now on so many different levels and forms that I didn't have there you know at that age that you'd uh, you know when I started ground hunting, it was when I first got on rinkorn. Heck, we just cut out there and it was trial and everybody, gosh, Um, now you can you can get good information off a lot of these forms that will help you that we increase your opportunities right out of the right out of the gate. H. You just gotta get out there and trying. Yeah, yeah, that right there. I think you you you hit the nail on the head. As far as one of the things that I know that you know, the little that I have dabbled in this um has been something that that I'm sure I've been guilty of, which is just that very thing, afraid, like being afraid of failure, so much of stand hunting, so much of you know, your typical deer hunting advice these days, and I'm guilty of having like preached this, which which is don't bump deer, don't overpressure deer, don't blow up your spot, um and and this and this style is like the opposite of all those things. So m I don't know if this style is opposite. It might just be me. I don't. I don't put a lot of emphasis on those things. But but your your track record shows that it works. You know, there's there's a lot of ways this can work. And and I think that's what makes this so cool is that your way works and my way works, and everyone's different. You know, I've talked to hundreds of different people now who are doing this stuff consistently and killing deer and putting mature bucks down or whatever it is they're trying to do, and and there's been several hundred different ways of doing it. So I love that. I love that you can skin this cat in so many different kind of ways. You just kind of kind of find out what's the right thing for you. I mean, we didn't get into it. I mean, but most of the time now because I've kind of converted to a saddle hunter. Uh, but you know, I'm carrying my saddle with me if I'm on the ground. There have been times now it hadn't worked out for me since I've been saddle hunting, but there have been times and that they would open in a whole another can mark. You know, I'll be on the ground hunting, but I'll run across this sign and I'll get the tree right then, you know, i won't ground hunt anymore that day. I'll climb and get get in the tree. Um. So it's all, you know, you just gotta give yourself the right tools, um for you know, any possible situation you run into. Yeah. Yeah, having a lot of arrows and a lot of different arrows in your quiver can be it's a good place to be. Yeah. Well, uh, at the risk of I don't want to keep you until the morning and those birds are gobbling off the roost already and you're still here talking to me, So I'm gonna let you go, Josh. But for people that want to watch your hunts, who want to follow along with what you guys have got going on. Where would you tell people to find you and connect online? Yeah, check us out on YouTube at the intamed. Uh work on Facebook and Instagram at the Untamed, and uh check us out. I mean we're doing law. We're pretty diverse in uh, in the stuff we do. It's uh, it's cool stuff. I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed the videos and and seeing how you're putting all this into action is is uh is really interesting to see. So highly recommended, and I appreciate you having me on. I was really excited, Mark, and uh, uh, I appreciate it. Hey, you're You're welcome, and I appreciate you taking the time. So let's stay in touch, Josh, and uh. I hope we can circle back and have another one of these chats and I can prior open that worm or that can of worms about saddle hunting and and all that stuff next time. Sounds good, buddy, All right, thanks Josh, all right, and that is a rap. Thanks for tuning in. Head on over to the meat Eater dot com and make sure you're signed up for our Whitetail weekly newsletter. Got a lot of interesting, exciting new things dropping this week. In fact, if the plan goes as it supposed to, will be announcing some of the cool new things come me up this week, so I hope you are subscribed to that newsletter so you can hear about it. Also, stay tuned over on this podcast of course, as well as Instagram and the Wired Hunt Facebook page for all those things coming down the pipe. And uh, I think with that we can wrap it up, So thanks for tuning in, Thanks for hanging out with me this week. Um, I know it's just April, but before you know it, it's gonna be summer and then you're gonna blink your eyes. The next thing you know, it's gonna be autumn and we'll be hunting again. So check off those boxes on the two lists. Keep working, keep shooting that bowl, keep on scouting, keep listening to this podcast. Until next time, stay Wired to Hunt,

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