00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four twelve and tall in the show. We're back for another one of our habitat specific roundtables, where our focus being how to hunt deer and swamps, marshes and wetlands from Wisconsin all the way down to Florida. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X to Dani show. We're back here for another one of our habitat specific roundtable master class, whatever you want to call it. These things are. I think they've been really interesting. We are drilling down to the nitty gritty of hunting a very specific kind of habitat, and to do that, we get a bunch of different expert perspectives, as has been the case with all these roundtables that we've done so far this year. I'm joined by my buddy Andy May, who I think most of you by now know is one of the best d I Y deer hunters out there in the country, and he's also a swamp and marsh hunting expert himself. He does a lot of this up here in Michigan and elsewhere, so he's along to share his ideas. But he also nominated two other swamp specialists to round out our group today. First, we've got Joe rent Mester. He's a Wisconsin public land bow hunter who many of you probably know from the Hunting Beast or the Hunting Public public Land Challenges, or his past appearance on this show. But secondly, we've got Doug White, and he's a more under the radar guy. You might know him if you are a part of the Hunting Beast community. He goes by the name of p K there. But what makes him particularly unique and why I'm really excited that he's joining us here today is that he's finding and hunting great deer in swamps, but he's doing it down in Florida. I mean some really tough stuff, very different than what we're dealing with in the Midwest in certain ways, but also interestingly similar. So that's what we have in store. This is a great episode. There's a lot to unpack, so I don't want to uh drag this out too long. I think we should just get right into it, enjoy the show, Thanks for being here. Let's get into it all right here with me on the line. We have got a hell of a group talking swamp tonight. We've got Joe rent Mester, Doug White, and Andy May and I'll just thank you all from the get go for taking the time to be here with us. And since we've got this four person format, which can sometimes get a little confusing, I'm gonna just pitch it right to Andy to try to get us started. And Andy, as we've done with this series over the course of the last couple of months, you know, you've kind of taken the lead on finding people who really want to learn from about the specific habitat types. And I love that because if you want to learn from these guys, I know that every single other person out there basically in the world can learn something too. So so to kick us off, man, can you tell me, you know a little bit about why you chose Joe and Doug, who they are and what they have to share here. Yeah. So we got Joe Rentmester, who you know, it's pretty well known. Um, he's a phenomenal hunter. And what what I love about Joe is he's a young dude, like he's a he's very early still in his hunting career, um, but wise beyond his years. UM. I tried to think back to like when I was that age, UM, and although I was doing pretty well, I don't think I had near the knowledge that Joe has. UM you know I that same age. So he's just uh, he's a great hunter. UM. I've listened to his podcast. We talk um through text message quite often, and he's just a guy that I'm learning from. UM. I love the the info he shares, like on podcasts and on the Hunting Beasts and stuff. So I've just been real impressed with him. I know he hunts quite a bit of this and he's had um some experience hunting with a couple of other guys. One of his best buddies, UM, who he speaks very high of, uh, you know, as far as hunting swamps and marshes, and then of course Dan Infall. So you know, he's he's had some good teachers and guys to learn from himself. So I think he's gonna be an awesome guy to chat with. And then we got Doug White, who there's also a hunting beast guy. UM, you know if if you're a Hunting Beast, UM. Member, Uh, this is p K and he's he he's very well known, he is Mr Consistent. Um. What's cool about him is he he's very private. UM, but he does share on the Hunting Beast and when you when you hear him talk, you just like, all right, this guy, this guy gets it. He he knows what he's talking about. What I what I really wanted to I really wanted to have him on here because he hunts, for the most part, a completely different part of the country, but still hunts kind of the swamps and marsh type setting. So he's he's based out of Florida, and we'll let him dive into that a little bit. But like, I know nothing about that, um. And I'm guessing there's gonna be some overlap as far as like what you know, maybe you and I and Joe look for you know, in swamps and marshes. I'm guessing there's gonna be some overlap there with with Doug. But I'm really interested to hear his take on on this whole setting. So it should be, Uh, it should be a heck of a conversation. I think. Yeah, we've got a nice mix of some salad Midwest experience, the Upper Midwest experience. Then of course, you know, I know all four of us have traveled quite quite substantially around the country, and then Doug bringing in that unique Southern twist, is going to make this a really good kind of overview of all things swamps, wet lands, marshes, etcetera. Um, so, Andy, where did you want to start with this? Yeah? One more thing, one more thing about Doug that this uh it was a few years ago. Like I'm always blown away by his consistent success. He's always killing two or three, four, I don't know how many bucks a year. But there was this one picture of him and he's on one of those paddle boards. He saw this, He's like he's head to tell you know, all they could see is his eyes and he's piddling out this nice book out of some swamp down in Florida, And I'm like, who who is this swamp murdering ninja here? Like I need to talk to this guy. I mean, it was the greatest picture of all time. So, um, yeah, actually I want to start with Doug. Um. In fact, because I was having trouble coming up with questions for you specifically, um, so mainly because I'm not real familiar with the type of swamps and marshes that you have down there. So maybe if you could like just explain some of the different types of settings that you're you're hunting down in Florida, and then maybe we can kind of relate that back to what we see up here. So Doug, if you want to take that away, Yeah, yeah, man. Like most states, UM, it's a lot of variation as you travel, mostly you know, from south to north. So basically out my back door is the Everglades, which is I mean very similar to a cat sill swamp, except it's just vast and endless, very very few tree islands. From cypress, which is like a swamp um type of tree. Uh. You have you know, some cyper strands and cypress heads, very few oakheads. As you travel up through the state, you get a little you get a lot of still a lot of marshes um that come out of like the you know, obviously Florida has a lot of water systems UM, and around those water systems you get a lot of marshes uh, swamps UM. I try to stay away from the canopied swamps, the big bass canopied swamps have some real tough stuff to hunt. UM. And then as you get up into North Florida, you get you know, you get your your ridges. You actually get a little bit of elevation, and then you get swamps down in the bottom. UM very similar to a lot to like yuh like creek bottom type stuff. When you when you travel dug, I know you travel to other states too, do you find that your experience in the swamps of Florida translates to other wet areas around the country, in the Midwest or wherever you're else? You know, or is or is Florida just a beast of its own Florida, much of Florida, especially like peninsular Florida. Um, it is very I want to say it's different, but there's obviously there's there's principles that that carry over. Um. Everything in Florida is kind of magnified. UM. There's the pressure is unreal. UM. The amount of deer in most places is just very low. So the things that you're keying in on, UM, it's a lot more UM detail oriented. UM, it's a lot harder in between. You got a lot more space in between deer so but um, but it definitely carries over the principles of you know, obviously the deer they got a bet on dry ground. You know, they gotta have places where they can travel and eat, and it's all the same stuff. Yeah. Man, Well, considering the challenges you're you're laying out there for Florida and and that I've kind of assumed from just things I've read in the past and heard from other people, the the deer that you've pulled out of these spots in Florida are is just doubly impressive. I mean, you've killed some really nice deer for anywhere, let alone the I don't know, the Everglades. I mean, that's uh, that's pretty Yeah. A lot of the nicer deer that I've killed have definitely come from, uh like north of Lake Okeechobee. It's it's a lot harder. Of course, that one picture you were talking about that was down south, Um, but yeah, down south south of the lake, it's uh, it's real tough to find anything with some bone on its head. Uh. So, Andy, you know, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about swamps is scouting with maps. That's that's the first thing that pops in my mind. But I'm curious, what's the first thing that pops into your mind when you started thinking about this topic, And are we thinking the same thing or did you want to kick these guys in a different direction. No, that's the that's the first thing, um that I think about too. In fact, um, that's one of the reasons I like hunting swamps and marshes so much. I hunt quite a bit of this stuff, um, and I find it, at least where I'm at. I find it fairly easy to break down and hunt, but not easy to get into them, if that makes sense. So like the game plan I feel like for me is it's it's fairly easy to figure out where to go and what to scout, like the transition lines and all that are usually pretty clear. But what makes it hard a lot of the time is accessing it. A lot of times it's a lot of physical work, which can keep obviously the majority of the hunters out. I think like swamps and marshes tend to get are tend to be better in high pressure areas because it just pushes more the more mature deer into them. So I don't know if you guys kind of feel that same way. But like as far as like, as far as cyber scouting and reading maps, like, I find this the easiest to pick apart, but not necessarily the easiest to access. That requires a lot of physical labor a lot of times. Is would you agree with that, Joe? Yeah, so I would definitely agree with that. Um. The one thing you if you throw in there is cedar swamps. If you were to look at like a cedar swamp on a map, that's where you're really, in my opinion, you really can't decipher much. I mean you can cedar swamps still have transitions and you can still kind of find those, um, But with the cedar swamps, you really have to get into them and kind of pick them apart. You have to kind of get in there on foot. So that part, I would say, is a little bit different. Yeah, we have some of that up north northern Michigan. I've actually never hunted like a true cedar swamp. If hunted tamarack, if hunted like tag alders, lots of like the red os, your dogwood, um, just a lot of cat you know, cattel marshes and whatnot. But the cedar swamps we have quite a bit of that up north, but I've actually never hunted it, and I've heard the same thing I've heard it could be very difficult. Um. How about you, Doug, As far as like reading the maps, is that is that pretty much what you start with? Yeah, for sure, I'm a big map guy. I mean I live in South Florida, so a lot of places I hunt. It's a drive. I can't really put boots on the ground. I hunt giant tracks of land. Um. So basically I am narrowing down a lot on the map, and there might be some huge pieces of public that I might not even really go to because I can't narrow down on the map because it's not the right uh sort of terrain. You know, you got those those giant swamps if they don't have good hard edges um or like deep water edges or something that I can key in on on the map. Um, you know, unless I have some intel on that place or or you know, something like that, I might just write, write that place off and go somewhere that's more more catered to, you know, my style and a little more efficient. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, Doug, Because I've i read you write something about this where you said that you'll you'll avoid areas with these soft edges as you call them, or kind of indistinct rolling terrain stuff like that, and that you really, as you just said, really look for those hard edges. Can you explain like what you mean by that and what that looks like on a map, because imagine when someone's trying to figure out how to pick a part of swamp when looking at a map at first glance. UM, for new people at least, that could be intimidating. It's it's it can be hard even when you've been doing it forever, especially if you're going to travel to new places and new swamps where you've never been in that area. And I've done that where I've looked at maps and thought, you know, and ended up when I'm standing there what I thought was the high ground was a low ground and vice versa. UM, So you kind of have to take everything with a grain of salt. But UM, as far as maps where you know what the train looks like, you know what the vegetation looks like, and you can see it on the map. UM. Basically, you know, people have different terms for the edge type, soft edge. Hard edge to me, a hard edge is if I'm on the edge of that swamp and you know, I'll just keep it. For Florida guys, if you've got cypress on your right and you got say, pines on your left, and you can say, reach out with your right hand touch to the cypress, and you can reach out with your left and touch of pines, that's a hard edge. You've got a hard line right there. But if it kind of bleeds then and say it takes fifty yards a hundred yards where it's mixed cypress and pines, Um, it's it's gonna be a lot harder to nail down exactly where that deer is gonna move through there. Um, So I don't know, and what it looks like on the map. I mean, if you know what the different types of trees look like, or the different types of vegetation, um, I mean, it's just gonna be literally a hard line, um where those two two vegetation types meat that you don't want to see them really blended together. Um. In some cases you might if you're gun hunting, I like that kind of stuff. But if you're talking mostly like bow hunting, when a lot of guys who listen to this are hard for bow hunters. So I mean, you're really trying to nail down where that deer is gonna walk, and uh, it just makes a lot easier when you got the defined terrain, like you said, with rolling terrain, same thing for whole country. I looked for the steep of stuff I can find, and I looked for places that only have a little bit of it, so I know where the key in on, because otherwise you're you've got the same problem with everything looks good everywhere and you can't be everywhere. Yeah, yeah, Joe, do you look for something similar when it comes to kind of prioritizing areas that have that really distinct hard edge. Uh, not necessarily, um, because when you have that around here, it seems when you have that hard edge, you also have um other people finding the same spots and pushing the deer out of there pretty fast. Um. So then you you end up finding yourselves in those spots that don't have the hard edge, that are a little bit more difficult to find out and figure out. Um. Yeah, So I mean I guess just really yeah, So so that's interesting. So then what when you're looking at the map. Then if the hard edge for you is working as well up in Wisconsin or that part, what on the maps are you keing in on otherwise? Sure, so you can still kind of catch a little I'm thinking of a local swamp near me, you could still kind of catch little points that jet out or jet in. So like let's say you have a line of cedars and cat tails and it's it's more of a soft line. You can still kind of see those spots where the soft line might dip in or the soft line might dip out, And that's where I like to check. And you usually have a trail either running into the seaters or out of the seaters. Um, those are great starting points. But then it's tricky because there can be that one low and high tree out in the cattails that is holding betting that everyone's going past or um, it could be very deceiving. So I mean, it's a starting point, but gosh, you really if you can, you really want to tear through an entire swamp like that and just kind of pick it apart. In my opinion, what else does you? Oh? Sorry, go ahead and sorry, I was gonna cut in real quick. Um, just to go off of what what Joe was saying, I see the same thing I see. Um, I end up finding a lot of the book betting on some of those feathered edges. Like it might be where, um, where a hardwood's point kind of comes down into say the marsh or swamp, but then off of that there might be it might go down into some like some tag altars and then kind of turn into more like dogwood. So like on a map, it looks like it kind of looks feathered. Um, you can still see an edge, you know, and a point that kind of goes out into the marsh, but it's different stages of like vegetation. Um. And a lot of times I'll find the betting like in that in that dogwood that's kind of out into the marsh a little bit, but it just looks a little thicker, Like on the map, it looks like a little thicker a little more structure than say the cattails are just beyond that. Um. And then like Joe said, like a lot of times there will be like a lone tree out there or a small a small tiny island. It could be the size of like a you know, five hundred square foot house or something, or a hundred or a thousand square foot house. You know, sometimes I'll find them in there, but um, a lot of times we don't have that real distinct edge. It kind of it kind of feathers out into there. So that's it's kind of interesting to hear the differences there. Yeah, so too. Back to you, Doug. Then you're looking for the hard edges, which maybe is a little different than what we're seeing up here. Um, what about the other things that Andy and Joe just mentioned, stuff like those points shutting in and out or those little islands. Uh is that something? Yeah, now they're spot on it, really and I didn't really get too much into it. But like with those hard edges, I very rarely find books betted right up there. And obviously, like Joe said, if it's a good looking hard edge and it's pretty easy to get to, you can bet you're going to find a stand every you know, a few yards. Um, But it gives you a starting point, like Joe said. And then yeah, then you're looking for those more subtle um you know, those little tucked away spots where those bucks like to um hang out and let the other deer and people walk right by sometimes or they're tucked way back in, but um, yeah, I'm definitely seeing what what they are saying. Also, okay, and on these maps, you know, what are the things that you're looking for, like kind of visually on these maps to clue you in on some of those other features. I it's really easy to understand a really clear hard edge when I'm looking at a map. But for someone down south that has maybe a little bit different kind of wetland, you know, our islands easy to identify. Are those little high spots easy to identify when looking at an aerial map or or what little clues are you looking for on that side of things? Yeah? Yes, know, sometimes they are very clear. Um, sometimes they're not. Sometimes it takes you know, walking around in certain terrain and figuring out what stuff actually looks like on the map. Um. You know, I've had buddies send me pens um and I said, man, this looks like a good little clearing, you know, inside of the swamp. And I'm like that that's a gator hole, that's a pollen. That's not you know, it's gonna be chest the head high water. Um. Just because I've walked through so many of those places. Um, so some of it is easy to see. You know, if there's a pine tree that's in the middle of cypress and you get a picture where those you know, the cypress aren't green where they drop their needles. I mean, you're gonna see that pine tree or that palm tree. Uh, if you've got a good resolution, you know, um on the aerial map. Um. But yes, a lot of times it is easy to see UM. But then when I see that, like like Joe said, if if you see it, man, other people are probably seeing it. So you you kind of gotta base that all. You gotta go in there and see, you know, if somebody else hitting it, um or not. Yeah, I'll tell you what you mentioned. One of my biggest issues I have up here in Michigan is when you find those gator holes. That those things are real tricky up here in Michigan. I gotta tell you. I mean, I tell you, I cannot imagine hunting in a spot where there could be gators as you're hiking in uh. Man, props to you. Uh Yeah, They're just part of life down here. And I mean, for the most part, they don't want nothing to do with you. All right, I'll take your word for it. UM. I don't know if this is the right next step here, but but I'm I think we probably need to just spell out a little bit more of the basic building blocks of swamp hunting and that we've kind of mentioned. You look for edges, you look for points, you look for islands, but we haven't really talked about why that stuff matters, Like how are these deer using these different features in a swamp? Um. We all know because we've talked about the stuff before war, but it's probably some people out there who don't. UM, So I don't know, Joe, do you want to take a first stab at kind of describing why some of these key features that you mentioned matter, Like where are these bucks betting? How are these deer traveling? Uh? What kind of stuff are they feeding on or or heading to feed on? Can you kind of lay out what you see up in your area and then and then we'll bounce to to both Andy and Dug two at light here. Yeah, So one thing, I guess I kind of want to back pedal on a little bit that will blend in with what you're asking. Um. Time of the year makes a big difference for us up here in the north where I guess I'm curious too in Florida with what how time of the year changes things. But in the winter, for example, you're not necessarily going to see the deer on the points because the point that you've got ice, you got snow, people are getting into those swamps. Um, you've got cold weather and deer start. You start seeing the deer by us getting pushed into like your seedars. And then where particularly in the seaters I find them usually are in your your tightest clusters of cedars. Um they almost stick it on a map. Like if you were to look at a cedar swamp on a map, you'd see like a real tight dark spot where you get maybe say, um, ten cedar trees just clustered really tight together, and they seem to just bed under those in those types of spots. And uh, in the winter part of it is they're getting out of the wind in my opinion, um, and there they have food right there at the seaters themselves. So time of the ear makes big difference, um and refreshing me again, I was gonna kind of blend it into your question there. What was your question? Yeah, I was just gonna ask you to to describe how you typically see deer using some of these key features. So you just mentioned one of them being one of the kinds of spots that bed. But if you could even kind of run down like these types of features are where I typically see them betting, These are how I typically see them traveling, using different edges or points or whatever. Uh, feeding too. Just a little overview of of those types of things would be helpful to kind of lay the stage. Yeah. Um, So I guess for the betting, it's just it seems those loan when things are wet and there's not a ton of pressure, those lone single tree is um, they have a little base underneath them, just seemed to hold the deer pretty well. Um. If there's not a lot of pressure. In my experience, they're not usually terribly deep into the swamp. Um. If you've got people right on the edge or getting into the swamp a little ways, the deer might be pressured in deeper. I've also seen it to where you get so much pressure in the swamps, deer come out of the swamps and they'll be better in your overlooked spots. Um. And then I guess to touch on food, I mean food when you're trying to pick out a swamp to food is so important in regards to what swamps are holding the deer um in the early season. I guess if you have a if you have a swamp with new seating alf alfa butted up against it, you can bet there's gonna be deer coming out on that side of it, in comparison to say, a swamp that's just surrounded by, um, I don't know, hard woods that isn't dropping acorns. So that's another thing is really for us figuring out where that food is and and if the deer are even going to be in those swamps, because I've got swamps up here that are awesome at certain times of the year and they're just they're vacant of deer at other times of the year. Um. So I guess that that kind of gets you going on that topic. Since sticking in the Midwest kind of area, Andy, what would you add to this part of the country and how you're seeing Do you use this stuff? Yeah, I see a lot of the same things, just just kind of going back to like some of the features where you know, if if I'm talking, I mean, I guess we're kind of talking about bucks here is specifically mature bucks. You know, I'm I'm definitely you know, we all know about you know, the points that kind of that kind of jut out into the marsh or swamp. Like Joe said, um, if there's water, anything that's high ground, which could be um, you know, a lone tree out there, or or a little island of um you know, tag alders, or or a lot of this stuff. I don't even know what it is out there. It's just like high ground where there's like little trees. UM. I see them betting on that um bowls like along the transition where it kind of goes it's like an opposite of a point, it kind of goes in. I've seen them bed right there on that kind of transition to UM. The one thing that I actually learned this from Joe's buddy um Um. I think it's a marshbuster on the Hunting Beast, but I listen to one of his podcasts and he was talking about how even just different pockets of vegetation doesn't necessarily need to be trees, but like a different a different type of vegetation out in the marsh that's like slightly different. UM. A lot of times those are really not so easy to see on the map. But um, after I heard that, I heard that like a year ago, and I started looking for that on the map and started scouting out some of those spots on some public playing around here, and sure enough I found some betting in there too. So um, yeah, all that stuff, all that stuff I mentioned, I see the betting. And then one thing too, like with with the cattail marsh and um, that's really cool and we all know this and most people do now, especially with mapping technology, but you can really zoom in on those on like Google Earth and and really see like those trails like such detail, and you can it will literally it's like a blinking sign going to you know where some of these these deer are bedded and then you can go out and verify you with boots on the ground. Um. And then and then to kind of kickyback off what Joe said as far as like what which marshes and swamps are holding um deer during certain times of the year. Like a lot of my experiences in like um uh, like cattail marshes that have a lot of dogwood around and those seem to really pile in deer there during the winter, and I know they like to browse on the dogwood and stuff. But that's I've been some of my best late season spots is in some of those uh those dogwood swamps there. But um, it's it's it's kind of interesting to hear him touched on that. I wanted to dive into that a little more later. But how about Doug, could you go with go off to some of the features that you see down there in Florida some of the same stuff maybe, Um, yeah, a lot of it is real similar. Um. And as far as I think the question is like why it's important, I mean it's important because obviously the deer, the deal relates to the terrain that's their home, you know. Um. So if you can find those points and those little islands and those little trees, um, one thing I'll say, well, well, when you get a lot of a lot of pressure. Um, I see bucks kind of using those lone tree type beds. Um. Not a terrible amount though, I've found it down here. They really like a little spot um where they've got a canopy and they've got shade that that you know, it's just it just it gets so hot. I think it's just a really big deal for him. That's what I've been finding with a lot of the turre bucks that on the last few years I've been paying more attention to it because I you know, I'd see one of those lone trees out there and I'd go stomping out to it, thinking that, you know, there's gonna be and there's not. There's not a bed there, like man, it's it's too perfect. But then they're up. They're up, And it depends, like I said, with the pressure, because the pressure pressure will definitely push them out there. Um. And also the amount of deer if there's if there's too many deer up in the more favorable spots, then it will push him out there. Um And then um yeah. And another big thing is just the way that they they seem to always be set up um for some sort of wind or thermal advantage. It just almost every single big buck that I've seen moving or have found, um, you know, where he's hanging out, where he's setting It just seems like they are always keying in on where that one wind kind of funnels through or um or where those thermals are dropping and sinking. It seems like, well, it doesn't seem I know, I'm completely completely clueless when it comes to figuring out how and where the deer down by you would be feeding. You know, I can understand the betting. The betting seems like somewhat consistent with what we have up here. UM, But I'm trying to figure how like my understanding of food sources would translate down to the south and down in the stuff here and I'm not sure it does, Like what kind of stuff are they feeding on down in this swampy wet country? Um? And how like what are you looking for when trying to figure that out? So number one is the same as with you guys pretty much, Um, it's gonna be hoax. You know, why don't we get a lot of water oaks, live oaks? Um? And the deer will definitely come up and hit those. UM. But honestly, I am not really That's something that I've been trying to set up my game with is um food source uh and identifying UM. But honestly, I don't down here. These deer just they nipped here and there. It's really similar. It's as I can put it into it, like is big woods what I hear those guys talk about in the big woods up in the northeast. Um, that translates really well to what I've seen in most of Florida. UM. You know, bigger going to browse a lot time. There is food right in their bedding. Um our brows right, and if it is in a really wet area, they eat a lot of aquatic aquatic plants. I seem feeding in the water a lot. That makes sense. The next step, I guess in my mind is taking all this digital scouting. We're looking at maps, We're looking for these features. We're laying down way points. So this looks like a good point, This looks like a good island, This looks like us an edge worth checking out. Um. And then of course, if you have the time, hopefully you're going to get a chance to go out there and check it in person, ground truth in in some kind of way. UM, Doug, I've read that you don't have a lot of time to do on the ground scouting anymore, so you focus primarily on in person or in season or sorry online or maybe a little bit of in season stuff. But can you lay out for me, you know, with your limited time, when you get some kind of available bandwidth to get some on the ground scout it again, like what is the key thing that you're focusing on or something unique that you key in on, other than like you're gonna go look at this stuff? Is there any more detail you can provide as far as the stuff that you're specifically really focusing on or um prioritizing um down here in most of Florida, I would, even though I'm not a big guy on on sign hunting over sign, um, if you can find some good sign because there's just not as many older deer uh and when they make sign you usually it's for a reason. Um, So, definitely finding some some you know, better buck sign is a is a huge thing. And if you can correlate it then to what you either already have scouted on the map or can look at you know, they're on the fly and kind of piece the puzzle together on why that sign is there and if you can make a game plan. Um. So Yeah, Honestly, if I'm trying to out it's usually I'm usually not scouting to look to see what its rain looks like. Usually I know what it's gonna look like pretty well. Um, it's more of trying to you know, groundproof as far as is there you know a good one around here. I don't know if that answers your question. It does. What what's quote unquote good sign look like in Florida, because I'm guessing it might look a little different than good sign in Iowa. Yeah, I've never been had a pleasure, but I've been to Missouri that's about the closes, and yeah, it's it's very different. There are some small places, uh, some small parts of the state where there's actually pretty good gear numbers and you can get into some better sign. But you know, for most of Florida, good buck sign. You know, for some guys, it might be any buck sign like that that, you know, anything might might get them fired up. Me, I'm looking for a bigger than average rubs, bigger than average tracks. Um. If I'm do into kind of scouting like where I'm actually looking for beds and obviously bigger you know, bigger beds. Even though we don't usually get those well defined beds. Um, you can generally if there's something there you can look at, you can tell kind of besides of the deer that's been laying there. Um. So yeah, I mean it's it's the same thing that you would look for anywhere else. It's just scaled down. I mean the big the big sign, the big tracks that I'm looking for might look like though tracks in the Midwest. And what about a bigger than average rub. What's the bigger than average rub look like by you? Um, anything that man, that's that's tough to answer. But you know, anything that's getting up where the center of the rub is up above your knee, that's gonna be a two year older or a better deer. And then we do get the occasional I've seen some places that were ripped up where it's you know, the rubs are up to your chest, and that's usually a deer that has pretty long times. You're a pretty ride rack or is you know tall or maybe all those things hopefully Yeah, okay, uh Joe, what about you when it comes to your on the groundwork, is there anything kind of unique that you're looking for other than just like confirming that yes, this stuff you saw on the map has some sign, anything kind of next level or specific that you do that maybe is a little bit different than others. I wouldn't say I mean next level, but to kind of take in a slightly different direction, not necessarily even just maps for us, we have to confirm that there's a big deer living in the area. So shining is a big one that I'm assuming they can't do. They don't do it for I don't know. I shouldn't assume that they don't do it in Florida, but just confirming deer exists in an area through shining, um, and what fields are using and what areas are in I guess i'd be curious if that's something in Florida or not you are legally allowed to shine. I believe I don't do it, so I don't know if there's time frames. I know you definitely cannot have no weapons in the car. Yeah right, sorry, go ahead, no ahead, alright, sorry about that. UM. So I'm curious what you're seeing kind of up there around Wisconsin. You kind of touched on a little bit of like where you know, maybe like in the marsh type setting where you're seeing dough betting as opposed to buck betting, and then also just kind of maybe blend that into like where you're where in your experience have the biggest oldest bocks. Has there been a certain type of feature or type of of pocket of cover where you've seen the biggest oldest bucks betting. Sure so in the swamps, um, I've seen. I've seen spots where you just have one solo buck kind of betting on some bogs, and then the next year that buck has gone and you've got eight or ten does on those same bogs. M I've seen that. I guess we're the biggest oldest ones. Are is usually some freak overlooked spot. Um. I know it's kind of a clear cliche thing to say nowadays, but like you take a look at I mean, for for the listeners, if you watched my one video of the buck I shot over his bed, he was with a great, big old buck and just a little point that wasn't getting bothered. Um. Now that's not swamp, I guess, but that's an overlooked spot. There was another one. Um. Really the buck got very old and when we finally did find where he was hanging out, it was between three three parking lots, kind of down in some little cattails, just a little hole next to like a little creek. Um, it's just it seems like it's those overlooked spots. If it's too obvious of a spot. They just don't make it to an old age. Yeah, that's kind of been my experience too. It's like it's either the overlooked or it's just those ones that are just like so hard to get to, Like they're the farthest away from access or it's just uh, there's some sort of barrier like a river or some standing water or something that you gotta get to. It's just like it seems like those two things, um or where I found, you know, either the biggest box or the biggest bucks signed um. But then it could be it could be any one of those features that we talked about. It could be you know, a little tiny island. It could be a loan tree out there, or even some some of that some of that dogwood. But it just seems like those two things are where if I really think back, where I found the the oldest and the biggest box. UM. What about you, Doug? Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Um? Yeah, I mean it's tough because, like you guys know, it's also situational. Um. But I'll say it seems like the biggest oldest ones, um, they're very rarely actually in those spots where you look at a map and it's like a neon sign. I mean once in a while, like you said, if they're real far from access um or something like that, they'll be using that traditional stuff. But it seems like the ones that are kind of sliding through, like the seams, you know, the gaps in the pressure, they've they've got some little spot works for him. Um. And a lot of times what I've been finding lately is they like those real I don't really know what they're called. They're not exactly a point um of dry ground, but they're more like I call them, like a belly. It's so sort of like a kidney bean shape, um, little knob, a little little bit of higher ground. And they seem to really like that because it doesn't just give them this real small little spot, gives them kind of like their own little area. Um. You know. And like I said, if if it has that overhead canopy with the shade, it's got brows, if it's got you know, security on the backside, whether that's deep water or cattails or whatever. Um. It seems to be that when I'm finding you know, like if I shoot one and back chuck into its better or if I happen to jump on or something like that. It seems to be in the last few years, I've been noticing that they're in these spots that are just subtle and they just they don't really scream that to you, even if you walk right by it. I I've found a few within the last few years where I've walked within bow range of that bed several times times and never knew it was there. Um, And that that kind of stuff is kind of hard, uh, you know, to relay, you know on a podcast, but if you spend your time out there and you really combed through stuff. Um. One thing I've been telling guys, if you if you know a big buckets in like a certain area and you can't find them, man, turn on your turn on your GPS tracker and and grit it like you're looking for a shed or you're looking for a dead deer, because sometimes you are literally walking right by them. Mhm. Yeah, that's good stuff. Andy. What about you on the well you just mentioned a little bit on that front, But back to the the on the ground stuff. You know, Doug just mentioned sometimes you've got a grid searching area almost to really identify those little hidden spots. You just seem to be a master of scouting anything. But I know this stuff in particular. Is there anything you would add when it comes to the on the ground side of scouting out these swamps and wet lands. Is there something you do uniquely or something that's particularly important to you other than just covering a lot ground. You know. I always have said, like, I don't think necessarily that I'm the best at reading maps or even kicking up things, uh, scouting as as some of these guys out there. But what I will say is I'm very, very thorough. Like I will scout the same areas multiple times, even though I've walked everything. I will walk at multiple times because I missed stuff. Um. I missed stuff that I'm sure some other guys wouldn't um. And it often takes me. I I think I pick up on the obvious stuff, um, but it often takes me two or three or four times, say scouting marsh to really get a grasp of everything. So I will purposely go out there. Um, there's this one in particular that I'm I'm really trying to learn. I had a I've had a couple of good encounters out there. Um, well, a couple of good encounters two years ago, and then uh, that same buck was out there this year. And I've been out there three times in the last week and a half. And it's not that big a piece, but I'm really just trying to dissect it. And it seems like every time I go out there, I learned a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. Um And and I've also I've always thought this about myself too. It often takes me a few years to really kind of master a certain area. Um. Yes, I can often dive in and take a good buck out, but to really to really learn it intimately. I feel like I'm a little slower than than some guys that uh um, I don't. I don't know, I don't. I'm not sure exactly why, but I feel like I'm a little slower to pick that up. So I actually spend more time. I might take twice or three times as much time out there. Is you know a guy like Joe or a guy like Dan or or or Doug. Um, I don't know that for sure, but that's uh, I think that's what I have to do. I think we're in the same boat. And that's exactly what I was alluding to. Is you know, I've spent I don't even want to know how much time breading maps and thought I was pretty good at it. And like I said, some of these spots I've hunted in for years and um, you know, uh, like you said, scouting the spot two or three times, even doing it within a short period of time, going back that second and third time. I think a lot of guys they scout something and they say, well, I scouted it, just like they'll look at a map and they'll say, Okay, well I know what that looks like. But when you stare at that map and then you shut it down. The next day you stare at that map again, and you stare at again, new things pop out at you. Um, And it happened for me. It happened looking at the and it happens on you know, boots on the ground all the time. Man. Yeah, well that's good, that's good to here. That makes me not feel so bad. But I do. I feel like you know, I pretty much I do what you guys do. I work those transitions and then I branched out from there. But I do I comb it the whole thing, like honestly, like you said, Doug, like I'm looking for a dead buck because that's the only way I can make sense of everything. To be honest with you, Um, I don't think I'm as quite as good as like reading a map, although I do think Marcia's and Swell Marcia's in particular, or some of the easiest to read. I don't think I'm as good at it as some guys. So I do need to be just extremely thorough and often I need multiple hunting seasons out there to really get it, and then things start coming together and then I find it. I feel like I end up finding it really easy to hunt once I figured that out. Um, But it takes me a while to get there, even though I might take a good ball out, you know, early on, it takes me a while to get there where I feel like I really haven't figured out. So should we move on to some of the actual hunting kind of styles then, um, because if we've we've kind of covered well the things to look for when you're preparing scouting with your maps, scouting in person, scouring this stuff, trying to learn it. But it's a whole another step than trying to take that information to actually apply it once hunting seasons open. Um. I don't know, Andy, where how do you want to I don't know where your head was that with this, but but do you have any thoughts on how you want to start this part of the conversation or should we just start basic and and just see, uh favorite favorite ways to approach on swamps? What do you wanna do? Yeah, let's do that. Let's um, let's maybe have them dive into a couple of different scenarios maybe that they've experienced or some text exist they used say that, like maybe like that early season in the swamps or marshes, um, you know, kind of some textbook stuff, or or maybe maybe a couple of stories of some mature bucks you've taken. And then I'd be more interested too to hear about the rut in the swamps and marshes, because that's I haven't had as much success in those areas during the rut. I've killed some deer there, but most of my success has come early to mid October to that late October time frame, and then I don't know, I just haven't had quite consistency during the rut in that type of in that type of setting, so I'd be curious so and and going even into late season too, because Joe, I know you've you've had some great late season hunts in the in the march, So how about we start with you. Yeah, so that's that's a tricky one. Um gosh. In early season, the biggest thing is is do they know they're being hunted yet or not? Um, because you could you can catch them. I mean, like like I said earlier, right on the edges of the swamps, it seems where they're they're not pushed in deep, they're not um. It almost seems like they're not bedded so much with their nose in mind. Um. And then once the pressure hits, it seems like now they start betting with their nose and their eyes. If they can use their eyes and the swamps it's a little bit harder. But sometimes you get like a hillside where people are walking down off of down into a swamp and the deer are watching that a lot of times. Um. So yeah, once the pressure hits, it kind of seems to change. Uh. During the rut. For for me, I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I had a little more success this past year during the rut getting onto deer. The big thing I noticed in the swamps during the rut is when a deer is in a certain area um whether he's with those or or not with those, it seems like he's just in that area for a few days and then he's gone. And then he might look back through a few days later and then he's gone. And that's kind of something I've noticed with the wireless troke cameras um and then in the late season, but it's just the late season changes so much. So like up by us, in the late season, you might have a thirty degree day or you might have a minus ten degree day. And in those swamps they shift around so much, so they might be when it's a little warmer, they might be kind of in the dogwood in the open um, chewing on dogwood, where they don't mind a little wind to get into them. When it when it gets a little bit colder, a little little nastier, then they're tucked back in the real thick stuff. Trend seems like keep keep the wind off of them. So it really varies, and I guess when I think about it, in all those scenarios, one thing I see a lot of is when you have a buck using a bed or using a spot, it doesn't seem like it's for a real long period of time. He's there for a short window, and if you don't capitalize on it, he's he's off doing something else, or it's gonna be a few days before he's back through there. Yeah. I uh, it's interesting you say that because I was, Um, I was out scouting um last week and I sent this polo, which is like it's like a video message app. I was sending it to Joe Els here in justin right um of this this little cattail marsh where there's this little island in the middle of it, and it's small. I mean it's the size of my living room. And there was a boot and Crockett sized buck that I was hunting here in Michigan a few years ago, and he lived across this major highway and every year during the rut he would, um, he would venture across into the side that I can hunt. And I had hunted him the year before. He was like a like a low one fifties eight and um, that's when I really kind of figured out his pattern. I was like, Okay, I'm I'm I'm definitely gonna kill this buck next year, and I was, I had, I was all in on this book. In fact, the whole season, I was basically foregoing everything else locally, and I was basically every night that I had, I was sitting observation just so I knew exactly when this buck got into that march, because that's what he had done the year before. And it was like late October, and he all of a sudden, he started showing up in that march and I could see him out in there, and he wouldn't move far off that island um in daylight. And to be honest with you, there's the property line where I was hunting, Like I couldn't actually hunt the marsh, but I could hunt right up to the edge of it, and he just wasn't coming my direction in daylight. But he had the year prior. As the season went on, like into the rut, so I was just biding my time observing. I started seeing this deer. I started getting pictures of him um after dark, and then it was like, you know, an hour before or an hour after dark, then thirty minutes after dark. I mean, it was it was accumulating exactly how I thought this would play out, and it was. It was just about time to move in and start hunting this deer like in some in some some funnel areas. And he ended up getting poached out of some guy's backyard over by the highway there a guy shot him with his hand gone out of his car. But I said, the reason I bring that up is because he showed up in that little marsh just for a very brief time. He wasn't there before, and he wasn't there after. But you if you didn't know that, you would never have a chance at this book. But um, it was. It was very cool. I sent I sent the video of that little little betting area. But yeah, that brings back a heart, heartbreaking memory. That's a painful one now. And if you, if you, if you could have hunted that spot, let's say it was all open to you and you were hunting those observations stands all those days, letting up to it, then you finally see he's here. What would you have done differently if you could have hunted right in there? Can you describe exactly how you would have approached trying to hunt him if you didn't need to wait off back on the edge of the ki did. Yeah, So where I could only where I could access to I could see about a hundred fifty hundred fifty yards two hundred yards into that into that marsh um and and he needed to come my way, but he was going parallel to me, so he was he was actually working out of that island. A few times I saw him in daylight. He was slowly kind of working out of that island. He was nipping on some red brush, just kind of browsing um. And then he was working his way up like into the fringe area where the hardwoods kind of dipped down into the marsh. So he he was making it to the edge. Like if I could have hunted that edge, it was like a little it's like we talked about a bowl, like where the hard edge or where the edge of the woods creates a bowl instead of a point. Um. He was working right into that. So had I been able to access that property, I I could have gotten a crack at him there, probably in that late October time frame. But he was what he was doing is he was kind of slowly getting out of his bed and he's working up into that and then he was laying down sign he was really starting to hit the scrapes and rubbing up his area and stuff. He's just basically keeping tabs on the dos is, just starting to check on the area. And then when the dough started coming and heat, that's when we really started, you know, seeing him move. So there were guys hunting that property, they just they had no clue that that's where he was. I I knew just because the history and the sightings and the trail camera dada, I kind of put it all together. But it was it was very interesting because they were all hunting up near the food, which was quite a ways away, and this buck wasn't making it anywhere near you know, their daylight. Um. In fact, when he would make it over to where I was hunting, like the year prior, he was doing it all via like security cover. He was never like um, showing himself out in the open. So they he was. It was it was very interesting how that deer was just living right under their nose and moving right under their nose. But um, you know that's I mean, that's a testament of like how how most hunters, a lot of the average hunters out there, they'll sit on that field edge and they'll see you know, and handful of younger Bucks, but you know that big one is is surviving back in there in the cover. So yeah, uh, did you want to pitch that same question you had for Joe a second ago Doug's away? You might maybe repeat it because I forgot what it was even so maybe Doug did into Yeah, So yeah, basically, UM, maybe touched on your strategy um of hunting in the swamps or marshes kind of early season, kind of taper that into like the mid season rut and then maybe even late season a little bit. I know that's a long, open ended question, but you can kind of touch on your strategy there. I would do my best. Yeah. I love hearing you guys talk about, um all the history that you get with Bucks. That's that's awesome. I don't I don't run cameras or any of that, so I don't get to do that. But I think the way that you and Joe, the way that you're able to figure out deers just incredible. Um. But anyways, so what I find, and I think Joe said the same thing in early season, Um, I've made this mistake of over hunting a swamp. You might say, Um, I've done this both in state and out of state to where I'm trying to dive in and those deer aren't in there yet unless there's food in there, unless there's oaks back in there. Those deer are generally, like Joe said, they're out on the edges. Um. What I've actually found it's kind of funny is it seems like those those batchelor groups of bucks will be also where they can watch access and it's like the first time that a hunter comes in there and you blow them out of there, they won't be back in there again until next summer. Um. So you've got to be real careful. Um because once you kind of go in and they know it's hard early season, once they know they're getting hunted, it's really hard to kill them. Um. So yeah, that's been my experience there. But um, you definitely can't do it. The one thing I will say, uh, early season, um, not so much in my state. By the out of state, if you can get into like that mid September, those bigger deer are pretty much all rubbed out. And if you can find those rugs, I mean you're you're you're going to be in the money. And that's what That's a really good thing for somebody that's just kind of traveling just looking for any good buck, you know. Um, that's something that I've had some good success really keying in on. Um. And then once you get to you know, I guess closer to the rut. I mean, everybody kind of knows how to hunt the rut, you know, the funnels, and I like a lot of um. What I can on a lot is like the deeper water because it forms sort of like a back wall. Um. You know, deer obviously they swim great. I've seen them swim rivers and and lakes. I've yet to see a deer really swim across deep water in a swamp unless they're getting out to a ball or something like that. But so what I like to do is find where where those are cutting around that water and if I can access somehow um behind that, you know, whether it's wading through some deeper water and the actually climbing up like say the cypress tree that's in that water, and I never have to cross that trail. Um, it's just money because a lot of times that deeper water, especially if there's sun hitting it, it's it's gonna pull those thermal as soon as you know in the evening and the morning is gonna pull those thermals. Then once the sun comes up, you know, obviously your thermal is are gonna be going up. And I've just found it to be really bulletproof. Um. And then late season, I really don't have much experience with late season because our rut in Florida goes all the way through in the march into some parts. So you know, once we hit the rut, I pretty much followed the rut um all through all through the year. I've read you describe your hunting style as quote by any means necessary style. Uh, what does mean? And why is that so effective for you? Especially in places maybe like this swampy country. Um, I think it's effective like anywhere if if you can get out of your own mind and out of the box of what everybody tells you of how you have to kill deer, and then you know how you have to kill a big buck. UM. See a guy like justin right, the way that he's killing these deer is phenomenal. He's he's sliding in in the bedrooms and sometimes killing him the same day that he's pumped them, and a lot of guys will tell you that, you know, and I know, Andredquisto kind of marketed that whole thing. Um, but you know, I've kind of developed the same thing as if you're doing what everybody else is doing, you're gonna get the same thing. So you know, I kind of thought to myself when I was younger, is you don't want to just be a deer hunter. You gotta be different. You gotta figure out something that's different. And I mean, even like still hunting through flooded areas. Guys will tell you, I mean, you can't really, you can't still hunt a flooded area unless you know how to walk silently, which is a discipline itself, walking through water and not making noise. So, um, I think just getting outside of the box using your head um. And I think one of the biggest things is is understand if you're going for a mature deer, is understanding how they use their nose, um, because so many times you know the game is over before you even know you're in the game. Um, So I don't I don't know. That was a bunch of There's a lot too clear, there's a lot to unpack there there's some good stuff. I have to ask about walking silently in the water. You said, that's a that's a tough thing to do on its own. So how do you pull that off? Anyone who huts into swamp will probably have to do something like this, whether it's in gator country or beaver country or points in between. So what's the what's your trick to pulling that off? Uh? Just going slow, being silent. And there's certain depths of water too. When you get oh, I don't know how deep it actually, maybe it seems like six maybe eight to ten inches of water. You can move at a pretty good clip and make minimal to no noise um. But you know it's sometimes it's if it's shallower water and you got mucked. I mean, you're literally having to lift your foot up out, wait for the drips to come off, slide your foot back in um. And obviously you're not doing that for miles. You know, you're you're kind of bumping into a spot where you're expecting to maybe run into a deer um either bedded or moving through that area, and you're just sliding through up. I mean's just like it's just like still hunting in the wood, you know, like crunchy leaves, um. You know, you gotta work around with what you got, um. But yeah, it's mostly a balance comes into it too, and that muck when you pick one, you're one foot up. You better have some balance otherwise you're gonna make a lot of noise when you go stamper and sideways. Yeah, I understand that when you do this still hunting through standing water, that you do some what you call cover calling. Can you can you describe that? Yeah, I've done that in the past. I really haven't done that lately. But basically, um, like if if you're sliding into an area and if you do it enough and you jump enough bucks, you kind of get a sense for like, man, I feel like there might be a buck right up there. And a lot of times when you get into these area when you get back into because what usually when I'm I'm still hunting one of these spotted areas, it's because you really can't hunt it from a tree. You really can't hunt it from the ground effectively, unless you know, win in cut lanes whatever before. This is an area where a deer has unless they're doing drives and stuff like that they have not um coming in contact with humans being in there hunting them, especially a human that can walk here slowly and quietly through the water. Usually they know from you know, half a mile away, here comes the guy sloshing through the water, and they know right where you are and when when you're coming, and when you can side in there quiet and then you make a few calls. Even old bucks, I mean, they're sure it's another deer like there. There's no doubt in their mind because there's no way that somebody could have stepped in their own. Um. And I've found out to be effective. Um. Like I said, I don't do a lot of that anymore, UM, mostly because I don't hunt those areas as much. I hunt further up north where there's better Dear, I hear you anything else when it comes to trying that still hunting approach in any kind of swamp, any other considerations, you know how you're when you plan to do that. You know if there's certain days that you would do it and others you wouldn't, or certain situations or anything. Yep, definitely try to stay away from doing it on the weekends. I've gotten several bucks killed, um, either by other hunters. I actually jumps went up to got hit by a car. Um. You gotta be careful about what you're doing when you're moving those deer around on public land. Uh if you do that, I mean, and obviously I'm also really not doing it during prime time. I mean, the worst things come sliding up on somebody, or like I said, you jump the deer and then he gets shot or shot at or whatever. Um So, yeah, midday I like to do it. Um So I said, I don't do a lot of late season hunting, but there is one area that I do hunt. It would be considered late season as well, after the rut um. And that is actually how I like to hunt that area because I can scout it while I hunt it. Uh generally late season, mid day, not a lot of guys in the woods. You bump a deer around, he's generally gonna be all right. Um So yeah, definitely, you know, and then like during the rut, you do have some guys who will slit all day, so you might not want to do it too much when other hunters are in the woods. That that'd be my thing. Uh Andy, your joke to either one of you guys employ the ground of approach in the swamp too. I can imagine there's I mean I've I've done it myself actually where there's situations where you know, there's there's some reason to want to be in a spot, but there's not a good tree. There's a lot of swamps, or there's just cattails are just stringy, little nasty trees and there's nowhere good to get elevated. Um uh, Andy, is that something that you're thinking about often? And have you pulled it off? Yeah? I have. I do a lot of still hunting, but I haven't done much in the swamps or marshes. Um. I have hunted from the ground or very very low like out of the saddle. Um. I've talked to Joe a little bit about this because a lot of times, um, you get some sometimes it's hard to find good trees, especially um where you need to be for these some of these older books. A lot of times are you know, yeah, there's these hardwoods, these hardwood islands or points that go down and yeah, if if they're coming up into there in daylight, like like Joe said, maybe early before the you know, the pressure really hits and maybe got some maincorns dropping. Then then it's a little easier. You can probably find a good tree to get into. But when they're staying out there and there may be only getting to that transition edge or or um not quite getting up into the high ground UM in daylight. A lot of those trees on the edge are they're not really conducive for a tree stand or saddle. Some of them you can, some of them can get just low. And like what I've told Joe about is lots of times I'll find a tree like that and I'll set up in the saddle literally at ground level or or six inches or a foot up and just use that tree as my cover, UM. And then I got a you know, basically that ground level shot, and I might be covering. I might be covering a trail or one or two trails, or or scrape right on the edge or something like that. UM. But a lot of times I'll be hunting just right from the ground and I'll just tuck myself, you know, kind of in the shadows, like off to the side, UM kind of I guess perpendicular or off to the side of where I expect move to be. I haven't done it. A large amount of that but I've done a fair fair amount, um. And I know Joe, Um, I'll let him get to this, but I know he's He's told me of a couple of situations where he's hunted from the ground on some of those islands, like way out there, and I think his buddy does that quite a bit. So Joe what he got in that regard. Yeah, I'm I'm not going to be the expert in ground heading, um. And that's where we gotta get Jordan on one of these podcasts. But Jordan has done super well, um, because you get these like like you kind of mentioned earlier, as you get these high spots, there's no trees around, and he'll just tuck himself kind of down into the cat tails, say twenty yards from the bed, and a lot of times those deer are only moving twenty yards before dark and he's just sitting on their trailer off to the side of the trail and when they come through, Um, you gotta be ready. You have a split second to get that shot in there. So I wouldn't be the best person to talk to about doing it on the ground. Now. Like Andy, I believe you said that that big six pointer that you shot this year in Ohio that you did that with the saddle. Your feet were on the ground right and you were kind of leaning back in the saddle. Yeah, I was. I actually had the platform, but the platform literally was like five inches off the ground. So that wasn't really it wasn't really swamp, but it was. It was very um, it was swamp like it was. It was very tall grass like kind of uh, kind of like crp like very tall weedy stuff with some pockets that cover. So it did kind of was similar to like a cat till marsh cat tell Marshan some sorts. But yeah, I was. I was basically at eye level, um. And that's the way I've set up a lot of times in the marsh there too, right on the edge. And that's that's another good point too. In the swamps, you have to be so careful in trees because you don't have that main trees and once you start sliding up one and suddenly you've got eyeballs looking at you and you don't even all that it's happening. Whereas say you're hunting hard woods or farmland, um, you can climb trees and deer can't see you. But in the swamps, it's a little different. You have to you you gotta make that decision. Do I really want to climb this tree? Is it gonna burn me if I climb this tree? So that's something kind of different than the swamps too. Can you describe, like, in a situation like that where you think that you could be with an eye shot eyeball range of a bedded deer and you're worried about getting too high up there? Have you found any kind of sweet spot? I know it's going to be depending on the tree and a lot of specifics, but if you had to say, like, man, you know, if I can get at least six or seven or nine or ten, or is there any kind of like sweet spot that you typically try to get into that's low enough that you're not going to get eyeball but high enough that you're still out of you know, most sight, or or anything you're thinking about Maybe I'm maybe I'm asking an impossible question, but anything you think about in that situation, Yeah, not necessarily. I think what it comes down to is in the swamps, a lot of times you have your one trail that you're shooting and you've gotta get up just high enough that you can shoot that trail, but then you do kind of run into the problem. You gotta consider the deer are gonna be sunk down into the mock, so now is their whole belly gonna be covered up? So you gotta make sure you can get high enough to make a good shot to that trail where you're expecting the deer to come through. But you gotta also not be so high that the entire rest of the swamp can see you. You know, you almost just have to use your gut, use your best instinct. Um, consider where all the deer betting, and think to yourself, can they see me? Um? I mean, obviously, if you scouted in spring, you can figure a lot of that out. But um, when you're hunting in the moment, usually you don't have that luxury, you know. Yeah, bouncing over to you, Doug on this topic of trees, Um, i've i've I've read a handful of interesting things that keep referring back to that that made me very interested in your style. And one of the things is that you are very particular and patient when it comes to picking the right tree. Um, supposedly sometimes taking thirty to forty five minutes just standing there thinking about it. Um, sometimes I feel like I do the same thing. Can you can you tell me that is that accurate? Do you still do that? Why do you do that? Okay? And then walk me through your thought process, like what are the things you're thinking about to get to that final decision. Yeah. Sometimes, Like sometimes I'm trying to help pick a tree, like for you know, my buddy or whatever, and I think that like they think that I'm zoning out, but really you're dropping milk read You're looking at what it's doing when the wind's blowing. You're looking at what it's doing when the wind stops. You're looking at what you think is gonna do when the sun sets, you know, and the thermost kick in. And but sometimes I think a lot of stuff like what Joe is talking about. I mean, you really don't have too many tree options, so you have to get in where you can. And um, and like he said, he stole the words out of my mouth, is like basically just highd up to get a shot. Um. You know, it's kind of it's like as high necessary and low as possible is the way that I like to hunt. But um, and then what's going through my head. Is you know, like Joe said, I mean, if you've got one trail, it's pretty easy to see what where that deer is gonna come out, um, But it's a little more like ambiguous than You've got to really kind of dissect it um as far as the options of where that deer is gonna come out, um and where you can shoot two from which tree. And then obviously, like I said, your wind, because you can't have your wind going the wrong way, um, at least not when he's gonna come by, which you know that's a different thing is sometimes the wind is going the wrong way, but you know it's going to settle down, and you know those thermals are gonna kick in, and you know he's probably not gonna come by until after that, so you set up for that. Um. But yeah, it's it's probably would be funny if some people could watch me stand there and look at three different trees for thirty You brought up the wind. Let's let's talk a little bit about the unique wind or thermal impacts when hunting and swamps, especially when you've got standing water. I would imagine there's some different impacts. I've seen some different impacts there. Uh is that something you can describe it all in your situation? Dug you gotta. I mean, are the temperature swings wild by you? Or is it always kind of hot and humid? I have no idea how that might impact thermals or wind changes and stuff like that. What do you what's going on for you and that? Um? Yeah, so it is pretty wild. Um temperature changes usually, but like early like September October, it's usually hot, human muggy even at night. UM. But yeah, like you said, with the thermals, I think one of the big things down here that I've noticed is like it's so the sun is so intense that I think it really heats up any of that water that they can get to. I mean if you walk in there in the morning before sunrise. I mean a lot of times I wear like jungle boots or sneakers or whatever. Um, and it's like stepping in bath water. Uh. If you're if you're stepping through water, uh, a space that is like exposed when the sun is up, so even all through the night that that water is warm. Um. And that definitely pulls a lot of thermal activity. UM. It's almost like a magnet like a thermal magnet, and it just sucks everything from around from the dry ground. So how then do you factor that into you know, planning where to hunt and how to you know, pull a fast one on a buck that seemingly would be able to take advantage of that. Yeah, So, I mean the bucks are definitely keying in on that um where they can, but you just have to find a spot where you can get in UM. And a lot of times, I like, I really like to hunt below the water line because a lot of times those bucks are kind of right there at the waterline, right below it, you know, depending on what the terrain is, what the pressure is UM and if you can find a way to access it and climb down thermal of him, it's you're kind of in his blind spot and it just it's it usually works out pretty well. I'm not following you. How are you hunting below the waterline? What do you mean by that? So basically you know where the water you know, So if you're walking from the dry ground toward the swamp, you know, at one point your feet are gonna start getting wet, and then as you go deeper into the swamp, that water is pointing to get deeper. Um, so depending you know that, and that water line is obviously right where the water starts for where the water usually is, and that's generally within that area depending on the terrain, depending on how fast you know, the terrain falls off and gets deeper. Um, you know it's going to dictate where that deer travels most of the time. But he's generally going to travel at or below that water line to catch all those thermals that are getting sucked in from the dry ground. I follow, you know, okay, uh Joe, would you would you add anything when it comes to wind or thermals in wet swampy stuff. So exactly what he said, if you're if you're sitting, if you've got the option to sit on the edge of a swamp or just into the swamp. I think that's kind of what he's saying. Um, he nailed it on the head. You kind of want to be in the swamp because at last, let you got your scent sucking down into there. Um. I guess from a more broad perspective for me with the but you're more open cattail swamps around here, the wind is pretty consistent. I mean, you can almost you can almost look and see what the prevailing wind is and that's what it's gonna be. Um. You've always got those different little things that can kind of mess up winds in certain spots, so you gotta pay attention. Um when you get into the cedar swamps, that's where the wind gets really sketchy and it really starts to swirl. And I guess that's another thing that just makes cedar swamps so difficult to hunt, is you you do have those swirrel spots swirling spots, and you say, you get a west wind and it might swirl one way. You get an east wind, it will swirl a completely different way, and that I think dictates the bedding a little bit too. Um in those cedar swamps. I've got one spot where a hill kind of butts up to the back of it, and the winds will kind of swirl around that hill, and uh, the deer o bed right at the bottom of that hill in the in the cedar and it just it could be very difficult in the seaters, I guess is my experience. Yeah, I hear you there, Andy, What about you would you add anything on that one? Um? No, I think they pretty much covered it. The water thermal thing that took me a long time to figure out. By the way, I felt like an idiot, like I was getting busted so much um, and I never figured that out. It might have been from someone on the hunting beast when I, you know, years ago, when they finally cluded me into what the heck was going on there, like even hunting like water holes, you know, early in the season. Um, you know, like I'd have the wind in my favor and things would die down and it felt like I'd still have you know, a slight wind advantage, and deer would come into the you know, the water hole or you know, to take a drink, and I'd get busted. Um. So it took me. It took me years to kind of figure that out, and then I started hunting it, um using it more to my advantage. So there's one spot in particular in this marsh where I used to kind of blaze through the cattails and there was a sweet tree that was basically this It's like it's like a creek bottom, but on each side of the creek bottom is like cattails and then you know, red oce your dogwood and then it kind of you know, blends into like some oak ridges and then fields. Well, anyway, the way that it's shaped, it tapers down and like all along that creek bottom is bedding. And during the rut it was just an awesome, awesome traivel corridor for bucks. And it kind of pinched down in this one area where I like to hunt. And there was this one tree that was kind of out in the middle of this funnel and that it was just in the perfect location. It was a great tree with great cover, and I hunted it and deer was often passed by between me and the water there there the creek bottom edge, you know, at in the evening, and I would get busted early. This is early season where it's still kind of getting warm, you know, get the temperatures are warm during the day and then they cool, but the water temperature is still warm, and that's where you're starting to get that. I would get that pull there and I could not figure it out. And then finally I started I got clued in out of that, so I started paying more attention. Well, then I started coming in. I started wading through that creek and there was a tree that was literally I stepped up right off the bank and I climbed my tree like it was right on the edge. And then all of a sudden, I could hunt that spot and I was completely bulletproof. And it took me a while to figure that out. And I wasn't quite where I needed to be for archery rain shots. There were some deer that passed by in range and some that were just out of range. But what's cool about that spot? As I could hunt it repeatedly as long as I had somewhat of an east wind, even if it dwindled down to light and variable, I could count on those thermals um to pull towards the water, and you know, I would drop milk weed, it would go right to that water and then it would kind of follow the way that the stream was was running. Um. But it was cool. I mean I literally could hunt that if I wanted to hunt that ten days in a row. During the run, I could. I would not get busted. Um, And I killed a lot of deer out of that tree. But it was it was good when the that that poll would happened when the temperatures were still you know, getting up into the you know, seventies, sixties, even fifties but once it started getting colder, that that poll wasn't nearly a strong and sometimes non existent. So that's something to keep in mind too. It's a great example. Uh, Andy, I know you've got to bounce here pretty soon, and we're gonna wrap this up entirely here pretty quick too. But do you have a final question or topic you want to run by these guys before you've got to take off? Yeah, I got I got one question. Um, so we talked Doug, you mentioned it, Uh Joe, I know you think about this too quite a bit. In the swamps and or marshes. You know, there's gonna be some betting that is wind specific. You know that they're there. They usually bend bed here with this type of wind coming off the land, you know, coming off the high ground or whatever. And then there's gonna be these other spots that are more any type wind where they could be there on any given day in most days. Can you, from your guys experience, can you maybe touch on a few of those that were because of the terrain and the features, it's it's a wind specific bed and if they're you know, if the wind isn't blown out of this direction off this piece of high ground or whatever they aren't there, and then and maybe some other examples of any wind type bedding. UM, let's start with Doug oh boy, okay. UM. So I would say most of the beds that I know of are any wind. UM. It's very very rare for me to find a bed that I think is uh wind specific, mainly because I feel like in the swamp it's not just the wind UM. I think they're mainly. What I've found by me is they're mainly keying in on those thermals, the thermal activity UM. And then they're also using at least one, if not to other senses meaning uh, they're using their sense of site, or they're using a lot of times of a sense of hearing. And I think that they just feel so secure when there is standing water around them, UM, especially if they can see up toward a dry land where any anybody would normally come from. UM. I just feel like they feel like they're bulletproof. And I will say I do think they gravitate to those spots that are in favor for them for the most predominant winds, the most or prevailing I forget which term is right, but the wind is that is most common. UM. And also I found the kind of spots where the terrain UM. I find a lot like in broken terrain UM where it's kind of open, maybe it's kind of brushy, and then there's like some uh scattered maybe like islands of trees where those those little islands actually kind of pinball the wind. And it seems to always pinball it into the same spot or into you know, towards the same in those books. Uh seemed the key in on that. UM. I'm trying to think of one that is when specific, and I just I just can't think of one that I've that I've ever found. And I also don't run the cameras like you guys do a lot, so I don't have enough intels to say like, yeah, this bucket here every time on a on a you know, a north wind, and he's never got on a south wind. UM. It's not something that I've found. Yeah, yeah, he I was afraid to say it, but he said exactly what I was thinking. I just don't see that much one specific, and I think it's I mean, I'm just gonna repeat everything he said. It's it seems like it's just more that they feel so secure in there, and I think what it really comes down to is their nose. They haven't smelled humans in those swamps for say weeks or months, and they just feel so secure in there that if a human does come tromping through there, they're gonna hear it and they're gonna be able to get out of there in time. I don't see it that often now. Before I talked about that one um the cedar swamp situation where when the wind is hitting if you can picture just picture like a rectangular cedar swamp with a circular hill on the side of it, When the wind is hitting the side of the hill that the cedar swamp is not on, it seems like the wind almost comes around both sides of that hill and kind of meets right in that one spot and that then there's a lot of deer in my experience in that particular spot. I've seen it where you could just count on deer being in there, but to hunt it is extremely difficult. Um. But yeah, I haven't seen that much when specific, I'd be curious to hear what Mark and Andy have to say on this. Yeah, and it's just real quick. I want to piggyback on that. Sorry, Um, what he said about like that island or that hill, I do see that as well. Um. And sometimes they will kind of position themselves a little bit different for the wind, you know. Um, But I don't see them betting in a completely different area. Um, just because the wind is switching. I know you gotta bounce, Andy, But do you have thirty seconds to give us an example of this wind specific? Yeah, I'm good as long as i'm you know, as long as i'm done, like some forty five, I'm good. So you can edit that out. Sorry, Well, what do you get? Okay? So I it's you know, this is it's obviously really hard to prove this right because we're not we don't know if the deer are there. Um. I feel like the times that I have seen where it's where I think it's more wind specific, is when they're bedded like right off of a point, um. And a lot of times that wind is coming like down off the point off like the main woods are the main high ground, um, and they're bedded right off that point. Maybe a little a little clump of trees like right off that point in the cattails or something. I feel like, if there's any that's wind specific. It's that now as far as like the islands or you know, the pockets that are way out there in the marsh, or the or the lone trees where it's like kind of surrounded all by thick cover, all by cat tails, are all by um, you know, good security cover. I feel like those are more any wind um. But you know, I'm not going to go out and say for sure that their bet only bet on those points, you know, on a specific wind, because I've haunted them when the wind isn't quite like that, and I've still had deer come in. I just haven't. I haven't killed a good one with the wind like blowing right in my face on a point, but I have killed a couple off of a point with my wind blowing out into the swamp and it's just missing that bed. So I don't. I don't know. I would I defer to someone who has more experience. I guess, um, I have a lot of experience in this type of setting, but I don't know that I'm confident enough to say one way or the other. But if I was going to point to one that it seems more wind specific, is is when there's a point coming off the main ground, the main woods going out into the marsh, and the deer better like right off that point. M makes sense at least if I can add one thing. So well, it kind of seems that we're all kind of saying the common thing. It doesn't see, there's a lot of non wind specific betting. One thing that is very specific with the wind is how early they seem to be willing to get up and actually move. So, I mean, if you've got it where the wind is, if they can leave their bed and have the wind in their nose, it seems like they're much more willing to get up early versus if they if they don't have in their nose and they can't send check as they're coming out of the swamp, it seems like they'll move a little bit later. So that's one. Well, a lot of the betting doesn't seem specifically win specific. How they move in and out of it and what time they do does seem that way. Yeah, that's a good point to they could they could have been there and just not getting to where I was in daylight. Um, That's why I said, it's it's kind of hard to prove um, But yeah, I don't know. That's good stuff to hear you guys say that you don't see much win specific though. That's that's pretty pretty eye opening because I was I was kind of convinced on the point thing that I had it figured out, but maybe not, but you might. You might, you might have that point figured out. I think it also has to do with how many options the buck has. If there's different points that are good for different major winds, then maybe he does bounce around to the best point for that day. But I just don't have enough experience with tracking specific bucks on specific wind to really say that that is or isn't. H I H. I love the level of the level of like new ones you can get with this kind of stuff, Like I, I don't have enough experience in this specific instance to say anything, but I just geek out about the fact that there is something to say about it, like the fact that that we can sit here and and kind of go back and forth about all the little intricacies of how these bucks might use these specific terrain features. Like that is why hunting and really diving deep into a specific kind of habitat just fascinates me, Like just trying to really understand how these puzzle pieces go together at this level of detail. It's it's the top of the peak. I think when it comes to deer hunting. Um, it's it's just fun. Let alone, how successful can make you be. It's just fun. Um. And that being the case though, UM, as much as I'm enjoying this, I do need to wrap things up on my end, So I want to just end with a quick, rapid fire kind of question for each one of you guys, um and and kind of leave it there. And my question I'd like you each to give me your take on, is what you think the biggest mistake is that most people make when hunting in a swamp like once that one big thing or or one specific Maybe it's not the biggest, but if it's one specific thing that you think matters a lot, that a lot of guys or girls are probably screwing up on this terrain. Uh, Joe, what what jumps out to you first? Yeah? The first thing and it's the thing I did wrong for the longest, is uh just messing around too much? You know, you kind of you read some sign, you think you figure out a spot, and you're just in there too much, messing around, and you just really need to stay out of those spots. And when they're when they're ready, or when you know that deer's coming, either jump in and kill them. That's this is the biggest thing, is people just messing around too much, all right, Doug, Um, I got two in my mind. One is access but everybody talents access um the importance of it. But one big thing that I found in Florida is sitting all day. Guys think that bucks don't move because it gets too hot. And most of the deer that I've killed have been between like ten and three ish, and a lot of them over ninety degrees. Those bucks will get up and move, So pack your launched. That's my that's my tip. Wow, And what about you, Andy? One final mistake that you want to make sure I don't make next year, I'd say I'd say most guys get intimidated by it as far as um accessing where you really need to go to get into the big ones. So um, if you can get past you know the mental block of maybe having to wait in you know, up to your belly button, or to kayak in through some stuff that you're not sure you're going to get out of or um, you know, walk in sinking up to your knees. If you can get past that, I don't think that they're terribly hard to hunt, but some of these spots that you need to get to to get to the older bucks are hard to get to. So if you can be mentally tough enough to do that, I think, um, you'll be way ahead of the average guy out there. Wise words, all right, Andy, Doug, Joe, thank you all. This is uh, this has been a lot of fun, and I know there's a lot of folks are gonna benefit from us, So thank you. It was fun. Man enjoyed it. Thanks yep, Thanks guys, Thanks all right, And that is a rap. I hope you guys learned as much as I did in this one. Man, there's so many places across the country where there are swamps or wet lands or marshes or catdil, you know, potholes, whatever it might be, that that you can apply these kinds of ideas too. So I'm hoping a lot of you are gonna be able to take this to the woods and use it this fall. Well that said, I will just offer a couple quick reminders. Number One, make sure you are signed up for our white Tail weekly newsletter. It's the place that we share all of our new white Tail content from the Mediator and wired Hunt team. You can go to the meat eater dot com to sign up. Secondly, make sure you're following wired Hunt on Instagram. And I think that's it for the moment. A lot of exciting news to come in the next couple of weeks. I'll be sharing with that with you soon, but until then, thank you for being here, thanks for your attention, and stay wired to Hunt.

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