00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four oh four, and today we're back with our habitat specific series in which we're getting an expert panel to dive deep into one kind of hunting terrain and today that's open country and our panel includes folks such as Andy May, Eddie Claypool, and Jared Scheffler. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. And as I mentioned, we are back with this series that we kicked off last week, in which we are diving into one specific kind of habitat and pulling in a group of people that have some great experience in those types of places and getting different ideas about how to approach it, comparing and contrasting these different perspectives and tactics for hunting the same kind of place but in wildly different ways, as we did last time. I'm joined by my buddy Andy May, who who's a friend and one of the best white tail ball hunters I know in the world, and and he as well as myself, have been more and more interested in hunting in these kinds of open country habitats, whether that's Nebraska or Kansas, Oklahoma, parts of Iowa, even some open prairie kind of stuff in some of the further east states you can find pockets like this. Um But of course anywhere around the edges of the Great Plains are are perfect example. There's a lot of great white tail hunting in these types of areas. But it's different than your typical Midwest or Northeast or southeast hunt where you've got mixtures of timber and fields and crops and whatnot. This is this is a different world. This is an ocean of grass in some cases where trees might be quite rare, but deer deer are there. And today we're talking to Eddie Claypool and Jared Scheffler about how to find those deer and how to kill him with a boat. And these two guys have done it consistently and to uh to an impressive degree. They're doing it in wildly different ways, I mean totally different. You've got Eddie Claypool, who approaches things in a little bit more standard approach with the tree stand and waiting in the right spots, while you have Jared who is on the ground chasing them down, getting in close and getting him killed with a long bow. Both of these guys have been on the podcast in the past, but it was quite a ways back. Um, back in twenty fifteen. Maybe, UM, I think you're likely familiar with two guys, but let me give you a really quick introduction. Eddie Claypool has written for a number of outdoor magazines, including Peterson's Bow Hunting, where he's still writing now today. He's a very experienced deer hunter as well as a Western big game hunter. Uh. He hunts and spends a lot of time in Oklahoma, Kansas places like that. Um, you should go back and listen to that original episode I have with him back in two thousand and sixteen. It's really great. Gives you a good high level idea of who Eddie is and what he's all about. Now. Jared is the the founder and and and the host mostly of the White Tail Adrenaline DVD series where he him and his buddies go out and do some pretty crazy things. They chase these deer on the ground. They use decoys, they sneak up and close. Um, it's just a really interesting way to deer hunt. And as I mentioned already, he's got it nailed. So we're gonna explore how these guys go about it. Andy and I are going to chime in with our experiences and our questions, and in short, it's it's it's just cool. It's just got me. I just finished with this conversation. We just recorded the conversation and I'm still kind of riding high. I'm still for lack of a better and just jacked up and wanting to drive out to one of these places and and try to find a deer in this kind of environment. It's it's just a really cool thing and something that's worth doing at least once in your life if you haven't already. So without any further ado, let's get into this conversation with Andy, Eddie and Jared. I know you're gonna enjoy it. And even if you don't hunt these kinds of places, I really do think that you can learn something that you'll be able to apply to your own neck of the woods. I'm even gonna take some of the stuff and apply to what I do in Michigan, even though it's very different there's some applicable things, and uh, with that, I'm just gonna tune this one down and let's get into it all right with me on the line. We have got one heck of a trio here to discuss open country hunting. We've got my right hand man, Andy May and then our two special guests, Jared Scheffler and Eddie Claypool. Um. Since there's four of us on the line, we're not going to try to do the whole individual introduction. I'll have taken care of that already by now. But but sup as as, I thank you all for being here for this. Uh, it's gonna be really interesting, I think for the four of us to dive deep into one specific type of habitat, um that being this open country. It could be you know, why do open grasslands and Kansas and might be scattered timber and fence rows in Oklahoma, might be what I've seen up in the bad lands in Montana or North Dakota. Me and Andy have hunted some stuff like this in Nebraska. There's a lot of places across the country where you have this relatively open environment. You might even be able to take some of the things. We're gonna talk about today and apply it to northern Ohio where it's just wide open egg fields with very little traditional timber cover. Um. That all said, there's there's a lot of different ways to approach deer hunting in places where you don't have your traditional big timber broken country, etcetera, etcetera, And and and that all brings me to you, Andy, who I know the two of us have shared at least we've shared one hunt in this type of country. I know it's something you are more and more interested in every year we're talking. You're like, Yeah, I gotta get back out there. I gotta go to Wyoming or Nebraska, these different places because there's something special about hunting these locations of those big s guys, those wide open vistas. Uh. And I know it's something you're you're curious about. You want to scratch that itch more, just like last week's conversation with Hill Country. So I'm gonna only kick it to you again because you seem to be a better host than I am. Sometimes. Where where do you want to start this conversation with Eddie and Jared well Man? First, I just want to say how excited I am to have these two particular guys, UM for two different reasons. Eddie. Uh, you know, I've I've been reading Eddie's articles for a long time. UM. I've admired him, his his longevity in in bow hunting and his consistent success. I just think it's so cool and in just a vastly different style I think than Jared in and on. You know. On the other hand, with Jared, it's just like we've we've been able to actually watch this guy on videos do things that I'm not sure, however, how many more bow hunters could actually pull off some of the stuff he does. So it's just it's just really cool to have these two guys on. I'm I'm super pumped about it. UM. And yeah, I I love the open country. I just don't get to hunt it as much as I think our two guests have, UM. But I try to make it a point to get out there now, um every year at least for a couple of days. But I think we'll start let's just start the conversation with just the basics, like like, what are you guys looking for? If if I was a new guy and I'm gonna head out west, you know, to Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska. What is it you're looking for in a piece of ground, um that we would consider open countries? There is there something you're looking for on the map that sticks out? Or are you just kind of going there and and hitting it? You know, as soon as your feet hit the ground, you're not even familiar with the area. I'm just kind of curious how you guys both approached that. So why don't we start with Eddie? Okay, Well, it goes without saying. The first thing I'm looking for, of course, is access, and often that means public land. Uh not all, not all of the states qualify. They're like Oklahoma. You can get out in western Okahoma and have a lot of open public land access, But Kansas is, you know, a little thinner on it. Nebraska's got tons of it, et cetera, on up into the Dakotas and stuff. But access is my first priority. I don't worry about looking at the habitat. I don't care. Uh. It doesn't take a brainchild a rocket scientists to figure out, you know, what you're gonna do with it. If you're a decent bow hunter. Uh, it may intimidate you at first, but uh, you've got to realize that open country white tails love it. I've hunted the prairie of Kansas for ever. It's the first year Kansas even opened up to non residents, and I've taken a lot of bucks out of places that nobody hardly ever even looks at when they're driving by. I mean, there might be three cotton woods in a square mile. Um, so don't don't overlook the open spaces. The deer numbers are there. They're not as high as they are back in the traditional farm you know, woodlock country. But you know, if you're after a lot of you know, quality time, that's the reason I go. I like to wide open spaces and the quiet and the no people. That's a ingredients of a good hunt for me. So I I don't look for any specific habitat types you can. I think I could jump into any of it, whether it be high plains or prairie or you know, desert. Even uh hunt the COO's deer, the white tills, a little white tails in open country. So my main goal is to find access where I can get it. And if not public, then you better go early. You better start working, you better start calling, and you better start researching to get your public lanned access. There's a lot of people that will let you hunt, you know in in the midwestern central States where the planes are, but you know, it takes time to make sure you get on somebody and procure a relationship. So anyway, that's my main goal is to just make sure that I'm gonna, you know, have a place too when I get there. And if it's a state it's got a lot of public it's a non issue. If it's not, I researched the public that is available, and if not, I go take a vacation in the summer or come through there sometime and spend maybe even a week knocking on doors. You've got as a blue collar do it yourselfer, you've got to work hard on access one way or the other. Quick follow before we jump to Jared Um. When you're you're not as worried about property habitat it sounds like, so what I'm wondering then, So that's beforehand. But when you show up to a piece, I'm curious, how do you determine if it's you know, how do you determine the quality? How what's your first quality check on a piece of property? Um? Is it is a quick walk. I'm just wondering because it seems like open country, the sign that's available, where you can find sign all. That seems a lot different to judge than traditional farm country where I can walk a property in five minutes. I'll find the big rubs of the scrapes of the highways of trails, and I can tell you, oh yeah, there's a bunch of deer here. It seems a little bit different in open country. So how do you judge, you know, is it worth spending time as property or not? Well, I I have a lot of time that most people don't, So I can go to a lot of these places, and I spend a lot of time in the spring when I'm turkey hunting, I go to these places. I beat him down in the spring. I look for shads. I look all the old signs right there in front of you during the spring when you're turkey hunting. So anyway, you know, it's hard to site other than going and putting your foot on it, you know, and you might have instead of walking a wood lot in Illinois, you know, you may be walking a ten hour day. I mean I've literally put in ten hour days, walk fifteen eighteen miles in that country, and you know, if you're looking for a really big buck, you're gonna have to look for the big sign either a fourth I call it a four finger track type scenario where you've got big mature animals or the big big rubs. And it can be deceiving because a lot of places I go, like in Nebraska and stuff, I can see some rubs that will pop your eyes out, and come to find out, those deer that are doing that a lot of times aren't necessarily really large antler deer. They're big mature bucks. It could be six seven eight year old bucks their bruisers. But a lot of times the genetics ain't there in certain places I hunt. In Nebraska, I don't hunt, you know where they have the better quality deer In Nebraska, the most deer I hunt that may die of old age with a hundred and thirty or forty inch rack on them. And so you just throw up some cameras. Uh, if you're in the fall, you know, get out there and throw some cameras up in the string or cover. There's always if you're a deer hunter, you can look on Google Earth and if even if it's ten miles of open country, there's gonna be some string or cover somewhere of some type of you know along a creek, um fence lines, you know, get some cameras up and uh let him tell you what quality of deer you're messing with. You know. Yeah, I love that. I love that answer, Eddie because it's you know, tried and true, Um, you know, working hard doing your pre scouting and and finding those areas. And what I what I love about this question is that I think Jared's Jared's answer is going to be different in a lot of ways. So I'm really curious, Jared, how would you answer that same question. Well, I think one thing that Eddie brought up is he doesn't really zone in on one particular type of habitat, and right away I reflected on that that's one thing that I don't either. I focus on trying to to actually get a visual on a big buck. So if I haven't hunted an area, or if I haven't been there in a year, which is usually the case, um, I'll start out that first day putting the miles on the vehicle, driving by a lot of different public land, and I'll get a pretty good idea by the time that day is done, of where other hunters are hunting, and just just a general feel of what's going on. And usually that's one thing I'm very blessed with is a good set of eyes. And so I spend a lot of time glassing. Uh some pieces I'm glassing to three miles out sometimes. Um And and this year especially I noticed, uh, it seems like the pressure level on public has been going up quite a bit over the last couple three years versus the way it's been the last say, ten years ago or five years ago even, And so that's a whole another game, and in and of itself is like, I'm you really trying to, you know, keep a low key on pieces that that I'm that I'm hunting. So, uh, I'm setting up on some of these pieces two miles out sometimes just so other hunters don't see what I'm up to. And and uh, the point that Eddie brought up about the habitat, Yeah, I don't look at areas or do any of that prior to my hunt. I get to an area or a pocket and then I just start putting the miles on the vehicle, driving by a lot of different public and you don't always get a visual. We run a hunt, uh this past fall. It was a new new pocket, new area I noticed where there was a lot of different hunters hunting, and there was a there was a big piece of public about a square mile, I guess, and uh, it looks like crap land. It literally looked like crap land. We didn't leave. It's the back half of it. It was you know, open country, no brush or anything like that. But the back half of it you couldn't see from any road. There was two miles beyond that of private grounds, so you couldn't glass it from anywhere. And it was getting down to one of our last day and we only had a few days and it was about eleven eleven thirty before we walked in there. And once you know it there that's where all the big mature deer we're hanging out. Um, we got onto a big drop time and and I should have got that deer, but just things didn't quite come together, and we ended up extending the hunt. We were going to leave that day, and and the next morning here was a a Mega eight on the on there a different one, and um, that's a piece that all these other bow hunters I was watching them. They were they were hunting the creek bottoms, and and it seems like on public land that stuff that really pops out in an area, that stuff seems to be what a lot of other hunters target. So I find a lot of times the mature, older class public land bucks, you know, aren't aren't usually in that stuff. Usually I'm finding them and the stuff just like Eddie kind of said, you know, he mentioned you might have three trees out there and it might not look like much, you know, the little tiny, you know, spots that other hunters are overlooking. At least we're talking public land, open country, you know, that's land anybody else can hunt. And and so that's that's kind of my general I guess, uh, how I go about it As I get to an area and I just start putting the miles on and I get a pretty good idea where other hunters are, get a feel for things. Hopefully I get a visual on a big buck, and once I have that visual, I make a play and and put together game plan from there. So Jared, if if you don't say say you're going on, I don't know, it's it's a bad year or whatever. You just two days in and you don't got a visual on something that piques your interest. I've seen on I've watched you know, many of your videos. I've seen how you you do. You will get out of the car and kind of move around glasses. Is that pretty much like you describe this pass on? Is that kind of what you're doing. You'll just kind of pick spots way off the road and you'll hike in and give him a try. And if if there's deer in there, you're in the money, and if not, you're hiking back out and doing the same thing. Yeah, exactly. If if if there's a pocket that you just get a feeling about that you can't like in a lot of that open country, I do find a spot where I can get on a high point with from the vehicle and and and long range glass it. And if if if I don't see anything visually, I'll just move on to the next piece. But there are pieces that you just in your gut, you just feel like, you know, I haven't seen anybody else hunting there. It looks like crap. There might be a little tiny ditch you know, that you see on your area. Once you're there, and it's like things just kind of click. And you know, unfortunately, one of my favorite pieces in Kansas that I discovered a few years ago, that was a piece where you have to walk back into it. But unfortunately there was a there was another fellow hunt here from Wisconsin in there for ten days straight and I never got a chance. I didn't want to mess up his hunt, and so I didn't go in there. It was about a square mile piece, but it's open countries, so it's like, you know, one of them deals were a square mile doesn't that's not a lot of ground in the open country. Um, and and so I just I never actually got to go in there. But that's a piece where I But I did discover a spot about three and a half miles out that I found that I never looked at before, where I was able to glass more than I more than I could ever before. So I started looking for pieces this year. I really noticed how I was looking to three miles out. Sometimes it was just so other hunters wouldn't see what I'm up to. And because that turns into a whole another game. I guess you bring up a good question or good point, the fact that in open country it just seems like, you know, a square mile of open country is very different than a wear a mile of thick timber and mixed fields and egg and all that kind of stuff. So how do you and maybe I'll throw us to you Eddie first, Eddie, how do you look at hunting pressure on open country differently than you might in Illinois or Iowa and traditional egg land? Is it? Do you have to react to it more or differently? Or do you think that, dear, give you a break in some kind of fashion? Uh? How do you think about that? Well? I think you have to deal with it very differently than in traditional country, because you're not talking woodlock white tails here, that'll go over on the next forty over and white you out and be right back. A lot of open country, dear, they are very vigrant, especially the bigger mature bucks, and especially especially during the rut. Uh. You know, I don't know how to put into words what I do. I really don't other than you know, I've spent the largest portion of my hunting career before bo hunting got high tech, before trail cameras, before GPS, before Google Earth, before anything. I had to just you know, go out and spend an absolutely enormous amount of time in the field. Um, well, you get a feel for what you're doing. Because I don't know if that's a good way to put it, but you just gain savvy. You get to where you can look at country and you can make judgments on it that you know other people aren't making. And now I know that's not going to help anybody with their own personal strategy. Everybody's looking for shortcuts nowadays. They want you to tell them the secret formula. You know there may be one, but I don't know it. Maybe the younger guys nowadays have figured it out and can put it into a formula. My formula was just time and savvy and on open country, dear. I mean I have went out in places that literally I would hunt for the entire on and off for the entire month October nover remember, and even in the December, and never see another human being. Um, nobody in the right mind would even hunt out there. Um be a mile, two miles maybe in any direction to the nearest pocket of white tail cover. Um, but I have patients of Joe. But I I know what goes on out there in the rut, and I will set a fence line maybe a cottonwood tree. If I can see for three or four yards in every direction, I'm gonna call one in if I have to, you know. I mean, all I need to do is get my eye on a big rudding back crossing the open country somewhere during the rut, and I feel like I'm gonna call him in and kill him. Um. I don't hunt the hubs where everybody hunts, like he like you know he mentioned a while ago. You know, we'll find out where everybody hunts. Well, they're all gonna hut where all the deer sign is and where all the deer are. I hunt exactly away from all that. For a lot of reasons. I can't. I'm not gonna mess with the people. I'm just not. I'm antisocial to begin with. But anyway, I'm gonna get out there and catch that buck when he travels from this creek bottom here three miles over to the other one. Uh. And if he'll be walking down a fence line of hedgerow, a brushy finger draw or something. And you know, I sat sometimes for days on end and they'll hardly see a deer to speak of. But when I do, it's usually a really good you know, mature deer because I mainly employed this strategy during the peak of the rut during November. Um, I've I've jumped these deer living out there in October many many times on my scouting trips. I've dumped them out in the grass. The prairie of Kansas were literally they were batting out there all day long in blue stem prairie grass, and the nearest tree would be over an hour mile for three hundred and sixty degrees in ever direction. People don't even believe those deer live out there, but the big ones, the big ones specialize on it. They live with their eyes, they can see. They bet on them prairie knoles, they can safer half a mile in ever direction. They're like analope almost. And so you just gotta get savvy and convince yourself what's possible out in that open country, because if you don't have it in your head to begin with what's out there and what you can do with it, you won't go out there, daddy. Um. So that's a a really cool description of kind of what kind of the areas like you tend to pick out, um right is or would you you mentioned like a cottonwood tree. Um. And one of my questions, UM, one of my questions that I had written down was was like, what I guess what I call like landmark trees. I've heard the guys that Open Country mentioned landmark trees that are kind of just out in the open, one single tree or a little standard cotton or something. Is that Is that the kind of stuff you're looking for? Are you actually going out there and finding like, uh, maybe something like a primary scrape or something under that's worked and you're expecting a lot of deer to come from or is there really something to like these landmark trees that where deer kind of come and go to and from them. I think there is a lot to that from my you know, deer like a dog. I believe they've got scent posts. That's what a lot in my opinion as a signpost drub is. It's more of a scent marker than anything. It's like a dog that will walk around his territory maybe you know as a city block he lives in, and he'll pee on each fire hydrant on each corner of that block. Well, dear, I think socialize a lot by smell. And you know these trees like this, I don't hunt them because there maybe say what they call a landmark type tree that every deer is gonna come to. I mean, if I find a giant sign signpost drub out in the prairie, which I have done. Let me tell you real quickly about a buck I killed up in the prairie of Kansas a few years ago. Square mile of blue stem and had one little I call it a swag. It was a general ravine that wound through it. And in the entire length of that mile, through that little swag there might have been a half dozen cottonwood trees scattered about every two to three d yards up and down it. No brush cover, just grass, a few scattered cottonwoods. I went out there and one day, you know, walked that ravine and there was a little sumac tree there and it had a little rub. I walked over to it, and right there beside it wasn't cottonwood about four inch in diameter that had been grown up by it, and it had a big old rub on it. And I said, okay, you know, case closed. There's one right here close. Probably I've already run them off, and all I gotta do is get back here, getting one of these trees here close where I can see this entire area right here, and he's going to show up during the run. I'll see him somewhere. So I sat there two complete days and dark morning till dark evening. I didn't see a close deer anything of any eyes. I think I only saw like two total there on the earth in those two days, and they weren't close, and they weren't big. On the third day, right at dusk, I looked out there and this buck was standing on the knoll out there at three hundred yards in the prairie grass, just standing out there, looking around. I clicked my antlers a couple of times and seen him look in my direction, and he dropped off into the ravine uh above me, maybe three hundred yards, and I thought, man, you know this could be good. Staid there at full alert for about ten minutes, and the next thing I know, I catch a slight movement. The blue stem prairie grass was literally close to four ft tall, and I looked to my ride as far as I could, and he was standing there at thirty five yards, just like a statue, looking around. He had eased up that ravine took him about ten or fifteen minutes to get there, and he was the full alert looking for what he'd heard, you know. And uh, it was one of them nip and tuck deals to get that dear bowshot because it was dead calm that day. You could hear a pen drop out of the tree. But to make long story short, he ended up getting himself bow killed right at dark and maybe fifteen minutes of shooting, light left, and he had been batted out there in that prairie grass and got up late in the evening and he was so old he didn't hard to have a tooth in his head. He was one of these old ancient bucks that was just a prairie monarch that had lived out there all his life and survived with his eyes. And for me to accomplished killing him out there in that type of habitat with my bow, you know, those things rank right up there on the top of the totem pole with you all your days. You know, you're you're just really satisfied to pull it off. But anyway, you know, that's kind of what it works with me. I just I I believe they come to those certain trees as a landmark sometimes, but especially if you got any overhanging lambs like you've mentioned where you can find a scrape. If you ever find a scrape out in the open prairie, it ain't there for no reason, and there will be a dominant buck, right because if you take the prairie grass I hunt in up the Flynn Hills of Kansas, you know every square mile up has got a large ant or dominant buck in it, and he may live out in the grass, but he sign is there somewhere. So if you get out there and look for it and find just a little bit of the sign. To me, if you put that with the patience of job, then you ought to have a chance that deer probably m eddy. Do you think, uh, you mentioned calling a few times. It sounds like that's been a big part of your success or a tactic you often used. Do you think because you pick these spots that are away from like the obvious where all the other hunters are, the creek bottoms that you know have more trees and stuff, that you're you're kind of out in these spots where typically they don't ever encounter other humans. Do you think that is part of the reason you're calling? Is so effective. Always absolutely. I mean I've always said this right here, redneck, but it's simple and at some point, I'm a great hunter of dumb deer. I mean, you give me, dear, I'm pretty good. You know. You put me in the Northeast with most educated white tilts in the world, I may become a very average bow hunter, but I love to hunt dumb animals. So I go to the extremes of getting dumb animals in front of me. And yes, out in a prairie like that, those big mature bucks. If you really know their lifestyle, if you can really grasp it, they don't come down to the standard cover hardly ever. Um, they don't live down there with the rest of the deer. They're vagrants, their loaners, and they don't get bothered. They don't get educated a lot. So when you get out there, you know, and you're sitting up like a diamond and a goats, we're in you know, with your bow, and when I'm comes by, then you know, yeah, you're dealing with a dumber deer. In a way, it's not a dumber deer because it's usually if it's an older, mature bucket, it's still got got the goods, but you catch them with their pants down. The deer that are down there is creek bottoms. Those two three four year olds that are getting meshed with all the time. I mean, it's just like anything else in life. The the you know, give me dumb eilk, I can kill him. Give me dumb whitetails, I can kill him. Uh you got everybody else can cut their teeth on the one just getting hammered olday long. I won't be there for a lot of reasons. I don't want to hut super educated deer the ones I'm after and gonna be a number down there because they get killed and um, I don't deal with people too well. I think Eddie hit one nail on the head there too when he said that that I can definitely attest to. And that is those those big mature dear like that. They don't go down in there. That's that's pretty rare. Maybe a fluke hoto old rag one down there once in a while or something. But you know, it's like that piece that I was talking about that me and Matt walked into, or these mature bucks were we're back in there. I mean that was a mile from prime lush crieck bottom, the kind of stuff that you just most white tail hunters would be drooling over. And I never stepped foot in there because those and those big deer, I never seen them hardly even get to where you could see them, you know, like they stayed. They stayed, they knew where they were at. And the reason I kind of hit on that pieces because I went back late season. I had to cut that trip short. Went back late season, and in that square it was a big square, uh with no road going through it. Most of it was private, but with this public I ended up seeing I don't know, probably six more bucks that I figured were five to six year plus old animals, you know, in the in the course of I don't know how many days I was there there in late season. The one day I had twelve bucks together bacheirt up, which was kind of a crummy deal. If you're trying to late season bow hunting and play the ground game with them like me, that's pretty tough when you got post that's eyes and it ain't rut, you know. Yeah, Jared, what about the landmark tree thing that the Andy brought up? Do you and I know most of the time you're you're on the move, you're trying to get eyes on a deer. But do you ever find yourself in a situation where you haven't found one, but you come across a piece of sign, like a loane tree with a big scrape underneath it or a huge rub do you ever take a second, say, you know what, this is the spot that might be worth waiting as a as a you know, scouting point or anything that. Do you put any value into something along those lines. You know, there's been many times over the years since we quit running tree stands back in on nine that I said, boy, if I handed to a tree stand, that would be a hell of a spot. And I do think that a person that has a balance of both. I just love hunting white tails on the ground and I'm too impatient to uh to to to wait a real long time. But there's been many times where, you know, I know that I'd be better off sometimes, you know, having that as a strategy. It's just like Eddie out up calling. That's a tool that you can use and sometimes that works, you know, And it's like that's the way I kind of look at things, like we have that decoy, that's the tools it's not for every situation, but for the right situation, will break that out or chance he he's he's great at calling, you know, and and uh, sometimes you break that out. You've got all these different you know, things in your arsenal, your your hunter's toolkit, whatever you want to call it. That it's like, you know, different strategies apply and to certain scenarios. And I think, you know, if I wasn't, if I had more patience, then there's been many times that have come across situations just like Eddie described there that it's like, yeah, if I put my time in there for five days, I'd probably kill a big one. And then sometimes we get the visual and and yeah, yeah, you know, you know, catch one walking by or or he wasn't bedding too far away from there. Um, you know that we see that quite a it often. Let's let's dive into something that both of you mentioned, but I'd like to get in a little more detail. It's the whole calling thing, which it sounds like, at least in your perspective, Eddie seems to work better in these areas uh than others, maybe because these deer aren't pressured as much as maybe they are here in me and Andy's home state of Michigan. Um, can you can you walk through in detail the types of calls you think work best in open country or the scenarios when you would use some kind of call in this kind of country. Maybe, Jared, you can kick us off with this kind of rundown of the detailed um the details behind how and when you might call in these places. You know, a lot of people don't my kind of ground game strategy. So you know, I I generally, because I'm going to try to put together a game plan to go to this dear, I generally hold off on calling myself unless he's covering too much ground and I can't get ahead of him, or I don't have embedded, you know, or sometimes there's one across the line, ry he gets over across the line under private, that's another scenario I'll pull calling out. But other than that, my strategy is usually like I like to lay quiet, not let them know, bet them, or maybe I've already got embedded and and then I'm going to plan a route in like that. You know. The the one thing about calling an open country to uh, you know, Eddie brought it up. It is very effective and it's really effective when you got a decoy on top of it. You know, a lot of those open country areas they not always but you know, like the planes of Cans is the population dear, populations generally aren't too high. So I think that that helps make the calling you know better, um, and maybe Eddie can hit on that a little bit more. Yeah, would you say, Eddie, Well, definitely the population is you know low in the prairie top country, but so is the people population, which makes you to go for me because you know, to me as I've gotten older, and I don't get me wrong, I've lived through most of the stages of by hunting maturity, and I don't knock anybody for whatever stage they're in. But you'll learn if you get to be blessed to live long enough and do it long enough, you'll eventually get to be hearts about a lot more than just killing those giant antlers. I've chased them giant antlers for forty years and I've got my share of them. Now it's more about, you know, the quality of the outing, wide open spaces and quiet, unplugging from the rat race. So yeah, that's why I hunt the perry and as far as the calling goes, here's the deal with me. I've always admired a guy that can get on the ground and go after these things. I can't be a specialist, you know in that, because I just I said, a career. You know, I have not felt like I am good at getting on the ground and killing white kilsa. I I totally admire the ability to do that. I'm envious of it. Even though I'm accomplished at what I do, I'm not accomplished at what you're doing, you know what I mean, And so you need to know that I totally res am awed by the fact that you pursue these big bucks on the ground and kill them effectively with a bow. I sat somewhere, so the calling is a lot more effective for me. I can totally see why you wouldn't want to call on the ground. It's going to focus that deer on you, you know. Um. To me, it would be a buddy system. If I was going to be on the ground and call, I would want somebody with a decoy off to the side of me calling, you know, and and maybe have me be the shooter. I don't know, I don't know. I'm speculating. But for me setting in a tree, it's deadly because I'm trying to bring a deer to me that is not going to be able to see me when he gets there. And yew. The decoy thing can be really good. Uh, you know, if I have one, Uh, I've had him react to it every type of direction, you know, good, negative, whatever. I've just about got to where I don't use the decoy calling anymore, because, um, if I see a rudding buck that I call prowling in other words, he's crossing country and it's he's he just stumbled along looking to get somewhere to go harass another though, I just feel like I can call the thing in almost all the time, and I do it mainly with a grunt call. I just standard. Oh, I don't get fancy a couple of grunts if he's so far away that he's not going to hear it. I always care a large set of antlers to get their attention, because I've actually stopped him from probably a third of a mile or so off in the prairie with a big set of antlers, just to get him stopped and get him to listen, and then give him a couple of loud grunts, and then just I've watched him walk a third of a mile, I'm broken to walk right up ten yards in my tree and stop. And uh so, grunt call is deadly. I don't ever call if unless i'm absolutely half to. In other words, I'll call to get his attention, to get him started. I don't make another sound unless he loses interest. Don't overcall. They'll get far more a suspicious of overcalling than they will undercalling. Keep their curiosity, yet, don't let them pinpoint you anymore than necessary. If they're coming from a long distance, you know they're not going to know within you know, x amount of feet where your ad over there. So let them get over there and then give him a chance to walk around you a little bit, trying to see you know where you're at, and give you a good shot. If you're calling when they're walking in, they're gonna have you pinpointed, and they're gonna walk right up there and stand there facing you, looking and you know, so anyway, grunt call and have a big set of antlers to catch one's attention from Why y'all, what about wind direction? You know in in broken country and egg land here. Um, a lot of times we're not gonna see Dear as far away as you might. But one of the things I'm thinking about is, is this dear generally on my downwind side. If that's the case, I might not I probably won't call to him. Even if I'd love for him to come in closer, I'd be worried about him swinging down on wind all the way and catching my wind as he comes in. Um, do you worry about that same thing? Because it seems like an open country where there's maybe no obstacles, it's it's really easy for them to swing down. When do you see them do that? What do you? What are your considerations there? They do sometimes I've had them, especially if it's I like to kill these suckers during the absolute picker up when they're they're literally just staggering around in a stupor. And I'm talking like usually from about the twelve of November on the breeding is starting, they're kind of getting goofy. The big ones finally show up, the really big ones that you don't even know exists will show up by around you know. Sometimes I have bucks out in that prairie that will show up around the week of Thanksgiving that I don't even know existed. They're coming from somewhere and they are usually the absolute biggest. You'll see them one time. You had better get them killed. That time. You're never going to see him again. They're liable to be five or eight miles from there the next day. I don't know where they go. They're like vapors, but they will at times. You know, if it's earlier in the rut, earlier, especially in October, you might start trying to call the one. He might start coming, but he's really more alert, he's really more uh thinking, and he will swing around and get you, and so I don't Usually I just look at the deer in the time of year and what he's doing, and how goofy I think he is. And you know, if if he's goofy out of his mind with the rut, usually at first call, they just be line it right to you, just be line it is. There is there a certain grunt call that you have come to, has become your favorite, or you just kind of whatever you can get at the store. Well, I'm you know, I'm a simpleton, I really am. I actually never even bought a grunt call. For like, well, I first got one about ten years ago. Now that tells you a lot. I used to just use my vote. Literally, I could sounds just like about grunt with my voice, and I just did it with my voice. I finally end up getting I think it was a Primost hard wood or something, just something. I know what they sound like, and anything that will make that sound suits my blows my skirt up. So no, I don't have a I don't have a favorite. Yep, where do you want to go next? Andy? Well? So Jared, Well, you guys both could probably answer this, but I know I think I've seen it on some of your videos. Jared, but are you seeing sometimes like individual mature bucks kind of in the same general area of open country year after year? Like, uh, they're like like like they obviously mature bucks have a home range. It varies depending on you know, terrain and habitat, but it seems like an open country sometimes get on those same bucks and very similar areas, right, Yeah, you know, but Eddie brought up a good point there about you know, sometimes they might be coming from five eight miles away, and he said, you better get him killed that day when you see him. You know, that. That just made me think about over the last few years, I've had three different Big Bucks that by the next day I had a straight line distance on him of over four miles that they had went um, it's crazy and and and uh fo, sure the same dear, you know. So I was just kind of thinking about this about a month ago when we had one that was just over four and a half miles. That's straight line, that's no fooling around, that's right right to a t I had. I had a you know, a marked spot that you could see on the ariel and all that. But it got me thinking about like the range. So if I got a Big Bucks spotted one day and I don't get him killed in that open country, I know that they can be that far away, but that makes it pretty challenging for like myself to two. I got my hands full trying to find him a lot of times the next day because he could be anywheres let's just say four miles from that spot. So now you're talking about an area that you've got to cover that's eight miles by eight miles. Most of it's probably gonna be private, and you're gonna hope maybe you've got a couple of pieces of public three four maybe in that eight mile by eight mile section, you're talking about forty acres that he could potentially be on. You know, that's the kind of range that some some of those west you know, those open deer cover. Um. But as far as year to year, you know, uh, I don't actually see generally the same buck. Like you know, I go out there, I'll find new bucks every year and wonder what happened to this one the year before? You know, So I don't know, you know, I haven't had much success on that. But for people that know my style, I don't do any preest scouting. I don't run cameras. I spend very little time in an area if I don't get a visual and I'm pulling the plug and moving on. Um. So uh you know, and I'm not. I try not to get attached to a deer. Um. I love big bucks, just the same as all all of us on here do. But I try not to do that, um because I you know, there's it's it's easy to get hung up on them and they might be on private and I had that happened to me two years ago. You know, a big, massive deer that I thought would end up on public I I kinda let some opportunities go on some good, beautiful public land deer that I shouldn't have, you know. But so yeah, that's interesting because I I haun a lot of uh it's a little different. I hunt a lot of northwest Ohio in a couple of counties where it's I mean it's open flat, grand flat ground, but it's egg so um, you know, once the what's the core and the beans come out, it's just flat marbled like flat top open country. And the deer do have very like they are very nomadic, I have noticed. But what what I did start to key in on is I I was starting to find out that certain mature books are showing up. You know, say, I often found books that would be two three miles apart at various parts of the season, but then they would show up as specific little areas of cover during the same time of year. And it wasn't like a a guaranteed thing or every deer was doing that, But I will starting to see trends where I was kind of picking up the same deer in the same small pockets of cover very similar times year to year. So I was just curious if you ever saw that out there. Yeah, you know, I think that generally. I think that if I found a big buck in that open country and I had my heart set on him and I didn't get them one year, you know, I do think if I dedicated myself to that area and didn't move on, if I didn't find him eventually, I'd probably find him. If he wasn't dead, he would probably be somewhere. You know. Well, I mean, my buddy Tanner there, he shot one that he should have gotten last year, and that it took him four or five days to find him in that deer was six miles away from where he was on him the year before. So uh, and he did end up getting him and that was a that was a big one. But um, but yeah, I mean I I don't think they're gonna be fifty miles away or five miles away. I think you have a rare case of that happening, you know. But but yeah, they cover ground in that open country. What it's been my findings that they once they get him, I don't know. Let's just say that you get about four and a half years somewhere in there where the breaking point is where they become fairly much of a loan or out in that open country, they will I don't know at that point when they finally kind of decided to become the vapor type duck if they're gonna stay around where they were born and raised, or if they're gonna leave country and go make their way in another spot. But when they get to where they're going and they finally start into the older part of their life from let's just say four and a half on up, they develop a very finely tuned plan on where they can live and not be bothered, and they figure it out real quick. And it doesn't necessarily conform to what we the people UH would would think of maybe, but it works for him. And I think they pretty well stay in a small area most of the year out in that open country. I think, you know, once they get done running, they go to their their highy hole I call it area. And it may not be a hole. It might be right out in the wide open grass. It could be a big old prairie basin. Um I've seen them bed in a basin that didn't have that was a half a mile wide in all directions, that only had a couple of little spots of waist high buckbrush out in it, and and for some reason that's where they liked and that I think they live in those spots until the rut. Then they get up and they start to travel, and they don't go very far, I don't think until they start, you know, once they start breeding, they finally loose their cookies. They get goofy them. That's the time of year when you're Liabelcy, when I'm walking across the interstate, We're standing in the front front of your truck in the county road. They get out of their mind. Around Thanksgiving. They've been breeding, all of a sudden, they can't find another hot dough hardly and they lose their cookies looking for that last little flurry erupted, you know, that last hot dough they can find. And they're liable to travel literally countless miles during that time of season. But as soon as that starts to get over there in December, they'll migrate right back to their HIGHI hell, I do believe because they can live and get into seven or eight years of age by staying in a heidi hill somewhere. They don't get that old by walking around in different places. All time, they'll get the rare ms poached or shot off by some ranch hand. Something would happened to them. They have a heidi hill area out in that open country that makes them a living. So you mentioned right there, you mentioned some of that, you know, some kind of little brush that might be a hidy hole for a buck out there. And and earlier you mentioned a handful of other kind of habitat features that might attract dear movement a little. You mentioned that swag like a kind of low ravine, You mentioned fence rose, you mentioned, you know, some of these isolated patches of trees. Um for someone new to this type of hunting who's considering going out to open country for the first time, Um, are there any other habitat features to consider? I'm just thinking, as a new guy, if I came out there and I had a list like ten different things that should be looking for, Um, one of them is going to be a swag, a low a low ditch through there. One of them gonna be some tree lines. Are there any other cover or terrain features that someone should put on their list of of check on this or consider watching for deer in this type of zone. Well, you know, when you asked that, one little thing pop into my mind. Now this isn't real common, but it occurs, and I've found them, especially up in Nebraska. Lot um I call them. They're not potholes, but they're close swampy, little swampy spots that are low iron and they're out in the middle of nowhere in open country. Maybe they have cat tails or maybe they don't, but they stay wet way more than anywhere else. They'll grows some stuff. It's a little bigger and taller, and I'm telling you, I just personally believe that's where a lot of these bucks makes are living in those little spots like that um they've got, you know, usually a little bit water there. And I mean these I have watched mature bucks pre rut out in the prairie a mile from any trease in any direction, get up already ments for dart, start browsing in the prairie grass in the grass. Now there's like seventeen or I don't remember, I read it somewhere. There's like I don't know how many kinds of species of things that grow out in that grass that are all high priority to a deer. People look at that grass and they say, let's just cattle land them deer can't make a living out there. Don't even kid yourself. They can make an awesome living out on that grass. There's all kinds of things they eat out there, and it's all down at the ground level. Because I've watched them put their head down in that blue stem and browsed down on the ground level for a minute or two at a time before every picked their head up, you know what I mean. So you know a little a little swag. Do you ever find out in the middle of nowhere with some brush or you know, reads and high grass or weeds in it? Uh? Let it pick your brain, because you may have found a spot where one I'm likes to bed often. And there's a couple of points that you were bringing up there to mark. You said you hunt a lot of open flat crop in that north part of Ohio. And that got me thinking about a big buck I was on a month ago, and this buck was literally living in a cut corn, very barren cut corn. It wasn't like a weedy one, and he would just find a little tiny low spot and bedding it. I caught him out there six days in a row, and I just didn't have wind on on on to two days that I really needed it to to put a stock on him. So I never ended up getting the deer, but it was really cool. And when you find those big bucks like that in those pockets, it's really fun to sit back and kind of observe how they'll play their cards so fine tunedly with if the wind switches a little bit. You know, I had a situation the year before on a big one. I had six stocks and seven days on him, and uh, you know, he he really liked this one. Kind of it was open country, but kind of a ditch draw. And that's one thing too in Kansas I find is a little tiny ditches. You can't hardly sometimes see him on an area, but if it's it don't need to be very deep. But especially you get a wind day, you can about bet that there'll be a there'll be a good one that they like bedding in those kind of like little ditches. We find them in there quite regularly. Yeah, I see that, that's a fact right there. I hadn't thought about that. Out there in the prairie, the wind can blow like a band sheet and they will get down in the little bitty depression or behind a you know, a no small no And I watched some uh this year, one big button particular, come and go from this one spot out in a in a real broad, low low spot. He come and went with two or three different dos over a period of a week that he was breeding. And that's another thing. You know, those big deer they might make a trip down to the more traditional cover at night and you know, you go down there and you walk that out, you see these giant rubs and you're like, oh my god, you know I'm gonna hunt down here. This is when they're at well, they're just down there at night. They come down there at night, cut them a dough out of the herd and take her back out into the wide open. The breeder. They do not want no competition with that dough. They don't want to stay down there because some other bucks are gonna come by and try to kick their rear ends for her. And you know it's natural you take your girlfriend, take her out in the country to go park and you don't you know what I'm saying, but anyway, that's the way it works with them. You know, they play the game pretty smart. And if you ever watch when I'm coming and going with a dough to a spot out in the open country, you may have found what I kind of think might be I kind of I don't know this. I don't even know when I'm enough of a redneck that I'm repeating stuff at standard terminology anymore. But years ago I started call them breeding sanctuaries. They have spots they like to take their dough to out there, and they will dominate her. I've watched and run him like a cutting horse until both of themse tongues would be flopping out their head, hitting him upside the head, and they will eventually domineer that dough and make her stay, and she'll give up and stay and then they breathe, And you know that usually lasts for like a day and a half. They stay there and do that, and then the next night he's liable to go down there at two in the morning, cut him another dough and head back out there. But if you find every one one of them out in that open country breeding, you better believe that that's one of his favorite little spots right there. Yeah, there's a couple good points you brought up there about that is that's that's a lot of times why I don't like to get hung up on sign that I do find out, Like I'm cautious of it, knowing that those deer could very you know, you survey the situation. I think he brought up a point earlier. The more you do it, the more you just you go with your gut. Your gut gets very sharp at being able to detect like is this a public land here making this sign? Like is he coming here in daylight? And I see many times hunters I think, in my opinion, they'll get hung up on that sign, and it's like, well that's that's those those deer a private land here that are coming over here at night making that sign. And you might get lucky, but you know, and that doesn't mean that all sign is that way, but I'm just kind of cautious of that um And one other point to in that open country that we look for a lot when it's rut, when we're putting on the miles and we're spending this much time glass and a lot of times what tips us off on a big mature buck, you know, is an actual satellite buck. You know, just you know, if you're if you're covering ground, if you're glass doing a lot of glass, and we do that. We do this in the timber too. You know, I killed one a number of years ago doing this in the timber. I ended up some satellite bucks. I called in and I was like, there's a big buck up on that ridge. I bet with the dough and that was all woods. But I use those satellite bucks is they're the ones that let me know, you know, and uh so we'll look for that. You know, you see a little little tiny buck out there, you know, standing in that grass or whatever, and he doesn't look quite right, like he's just standing around, and it's like, what's he doing, Well, he's probably satellite And you park it there and you start glass and you might catch a big bucks rack. I mean, pretty good chance there's gonna be a big mature buck lockdown with the dough, especially in that open country like that where those dough numbers aren't very high. Usually if a dough is hot, a mature bucks gonna find her and and you're gonna you're gonna have that. You mentioned the satellite bucks kind of tipping you off to locating a buck like that. I know that glassing and generally getting eyes on a good buck is is such a huge part of your whole strategy. Are there any other things you've picked up over the years that help you spot more dear, whether that's where you choose the glass from or the actual glass you use, or gear you use, or glassing techniques, anything like that that helps you actually get your eyes on one. Yeah. There, there, there's a couple of things. One thing is is if you're gonna do this open ground and you're gonna kind of do this spot and stock kind of thing, you know, I I absolutely have to have good glass, like I can't be without it because I won't get I won't get nearly as much accomplished. So you know, get some good glass. But one one trick that I learned last year and now I use it all the time is I have a pretty good tripod and I've had it for fifteen years. But it's got a nice fluid head on it, and it's got a wide enough base that I can just drop my binoculars right on that. And sometimes you get a wind day where you got our winds and you're trying to glass grass, You've got a lot of movement and it's very hard to pick up just randomly if you unless you betted one. You know, if you bed one and you know he's out there, obviously it's easier to find it. But if you're just free floating glassing and you haven't gotten a visual yet, what I like to do is set that tripod up and then I pulled down on on it with my binocks, and I can about get rid of most of that wind, you know that that I couldn't otherwise do. And you know, my buddy Tanner, he was doing some hunting with me this year and and and he he's a really really good hunter, and I showed him that trick and he immediately was like, whoa, this is a game changer. This is a serious game changer. Um, so try that. You know, that's that's a good one. I always like to have good optics with a good steady rest, you know. And in fact, in the vehicles, I make my own sort of there's not a window mount that I like, so I'll take an actual fluid head and then I put one of the window clamps on it. So, um, because having a good steady rest, when you're glad, when you're glass and stuff half mile it ain't is big of a deal. But when you're trying to glass, you know, beyond a mile, and sometimes you're getting out there to three miles. I mean I've picked up Dear. I mean people would probably you know, think I'm be Austin, but I've picked him up right around five mile Dear before. But you've got to have a steady rest if you're and good optics if you're gonna do that, you got to have both. Though. If if you're gonna have to pick just one optic for your long distance classing so you're from the car or or really long distance type stuff, would you use a spotter or would you like a big, you know, high power set of binoculars for that? Okay, So if I had to pick one optic and that's the only optic I could use all fall, I would take my twelve by fifties and those are those ones are vortex L tra hds UM. I generally will spot Dear with the binoculars first, then transfer over to the spot or to you know, how big a buck are we dealing with? Here? Is there other you know, and try to pick up you know, if there's you know, that's one thing when I get a visial on a big bucket. I'm gonna make a play. I gotta know is he alone? Does he have just a dough? Is there one satellite? Buck to three? Where they at? Because I gotta plan a route to get in there, and not just get into compound range. You know, I'm trying to get in long bowl range, and so that's a whole another end a camera guy and trying to weasel in there. And you know that's the one thing about doing that game is a lot of times we aren't successful. But sometimes it all comes together. And sometimes it's the ones that you think there's not a chance you're gonna pull it off. But let's try it. That come together real smooth. That's funny. You know you don't always get them. Let me interject something right here, because I gotta tell you. I can't tell you how um much I am stymied by the thought of getting in on these big deer and killing him off the ground with a longbow touched scenario. Um you the man, I'm telling you you deserve I bow down, No kidding, I'm uh. I mean, I know there's a lot of way to skin a cat, but of all the route to choose, you make bow hunting bow hunting, Okay, and uh, you do it at the most incredible level. I mean I I look for the you know, shortcuts to kill them, setting a trace down, let him stumble by. It don't get any better than what you're doing. And I applaud you. Okay, well, I appreciate that. But you know, like with it though. I mean sometimes I've had ten fifteen stocks where I didn't get them. They're unsuccessful. But the cool thing about it you learn, you learn things along the way that sometimes you know and you can I'm sure attest to that with your style of hunting as well. You know, you learn the ones that you don't get are the ones you always you know, learn the most from. Yeah, well I tell you to try to figure out what you're doing and make it work. Um, i'd have to start back over. I'd have God, I have to give me twenty or thirty years back to get started because I'm I just I'm not a great stalker and get into you know, wooden stick bow range, uh, and get it pulled off. I couldn't hit a hit him anyway. But I mean, listen, I know what you're doing, and I give you all due credit okay, so so so tell me this, Eddie. Um, with your style of hunting in open country, how important is glassing and optics and all that to you? Um? Do you do you do any long distance scouting like that beforehand? Or is it all ground and pound hike it until you find a good tree? Um? How does that fit into yourself? I do use optics. I don't use them, you know, at the level that we're talking here. I mean I always have a set of ten Empire, you know. I have a little small set of Swarovski ten Powers that go with me, and they're right there in reach because I do you know, even though I'm not as much into big bucks as I used to be, I still am into them. Uh. I want to know what I'm like that, you know. And I see them a lot of times at the distance and I can't tell if it's a hundred or a hundred and sixty five inch, you know, I don't know. So yes, I use them, I really do. But you know, I'm just to the point in my life now, in my early sixties, to where if I see a good deer, I want to try to get it that day I go with, you know, if I if I don't have a wedgie that day, and I'm in a good mood. I want to kill a deer, and I try to do it. You know, if it's I might shoot a hundred and forty inch deer anymore, which I used to wouldn't have walked across the street for a hundred and forty inch here. But things have changed, and uh, you know, I'll go with my heart anymore. I didn't even shoot a good deer this year up in Kansas. I I didn't even shoot one. I just let them all go and let some one fifties go and finally, just you know, I just you know what I mean. And so I'm changing. I'm going through manopause right now, and it ain't funny telling you guys. Live it up while you can. Take this old man's advice. And when you get close to starting to feel it to hit you, shift it into high gear and don't let it get you down. Go go get hormone replacement therapy, do something. Just don't go get old, because um, it's not gonna be fun on you. If you if you've lived large like like we try to, I've lived large for forty years, and it's hard to get old, you know what I mean, it's hard to accept the limitations. So you know, I just uh, I take really good optics, but I'm sure they don't play nearly as integral part in in my hunt as they do Jared. You know what what's next for you? Andy? Um? I know there's so many things that we're talking about here that make me think about some of the stuff we were doing in Nebraska a few years ago. And even though we were able to get on you know, I got on really early and you were on one pretty quick to we were able to figure it out in that scenario. I'm already thinking, you know, if we had if we'd stayed ten days, or if we were more picky, I wonder if we could have found deer over in this area, or I wonder if we could have went about it a little bit different. And that's about we're hunting. It was slightly different than some of these scenarios, and that we're hunting kind of sandhill type habitat with big, wide, open grassy hills and then very thick covered river bottoms in the middle. So he had one swath of great, big cover surrounded by an ocean of open grass. Um so I'm thinking about that scenarios we're talking through here, But what are you thinking about, Andy? Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. Um. Here's here's a good question for you guys. UM. And I know this depends on the time of the year, like early season versus rutt versus late and you guys can can expand on that if you want. But in my experience, like I've seen bucks bed in this type of country like seemingly using the wind to their advantage. But then there's other times I'll see them like it seems like they're looking more for shade and they're not using the wind to their advantage. And then other times, like maybe in some real cold weather, they're out in the sun more so it seems like sometimes they're betted more for a wind advantage, is which is what I'm more used to like back home around Michigan, monitoring you know, pressure monitoring their backside and setting up you know, facing down wind. But I don't always see that in open country, and I've often we'll see dear just kind of moving around to like shady spots if it's like maybe a real sunny day or unseasonably warm. Have you guys seen that same kind of thing. Jared, you probably have a lot of experiences because you get to observe so many bucks betted. Yeah, you know. I Here's what I find is when I'm hunting you know, big bucks early season, late season, I'll find them using you know, betting a lot. They're a lot sharper with how they bed with that wind at least. And what I'm saying is mature bucks, you know, so four plus we'll just say, okay, so semi mature to mature level. Those there are sharp. They're on another level from from those younger two two year old bucks and even the threes to where they get yeah, I mean they don't like it the wind switches a little bit, and they'll get up and re bed thirty yards to accommodate it. They're they're just on a different level now. During the rut there's so many times we sneak up on big Bucks that they aren't looking where the you know, the where that you know that the generalal thumb is okay, they're looking where they can't smell. I I find that not to be the case nearly as much during the rut um. But also if their bachelor grouped up. That changes too, So you've got to three bucks with this, you know, big Buck. If usually they're playing it pretty smart, like this one's got discovered for visual, this one he's he's got it covered for. It's fun to watch him in these types of situations. And and we had a pretty good situation where we were able to document some of that a couple of years ago pretty well, um, with a big one that I was chasing. But but yeah, you know a lot of times when I'm putting a sneak on him, I'm still just kind of cheating that wind, you know, just off of their their nose. That seems to be the route that i'd say gets picked over any other. You know, it's not that often that we can come in straight down window a big Buck, even even during the rut. But I do see where, Um it's not like, hey, he beds down and he's looking where he or you know, he's not looking where he can smell or can't smell. It's not like that's like a rare thing for me to see during the rut. Um, that's pretty common. So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, Ednie, have you have you been able to observe that much. I'm pretty much rot in line with that. Early season. Late seasons totally different ball game. They're on a survival, you know, pattern, and they don't compromise much there during the smaller, lesser crap shoot and all invariable sea mentioned plays into how there, how it's gonna play out. I think it's just the roll of the dice in the rut. And uh, to me, what I'd say is, if you know which, to me, that's most of the time when somebody's gonna be trying to get up on a buck on the ground, it's probably during the rut, I would think. I don't. I mean, I don't know how much everyone that hunts him on the ground goes out and hunts him in October and in December. I'm sure they do, but their success has got to be mainly in that month of November when the cards turn their way a little bit better in the bucks show their weaknesses. But you know, I have to play the win pretty bad. Even out in the prairie. I still am cognizant of it NonStop because I'm trying to stay in them immobile spot, and so I always try to pick the one direction and the one spot to where it. I think it's the absolutely less likely that somebody's when I'm is going to get around behind me, whether he's crossing country on his own or whether he's running a dough out there. You know, the wind is just I live and die by it. I don't worry about all the scent stuff I did for many years. I run myself crazy messing with scent and burn myself out on sent elimination. And finally just said, I'm going back to the old school. And if they smell me, they smell me. But I'm gonna try to keep them from it. But you know, I haven't found it to be much of a you know, I don't what tells a whole lot in the first half October and the last part of the December anymore. I don't do it a lot, uh hind them mainly when they're breeding mid October through late November, and so it's a crap shoot. It's a crap shoot on what they're doing on anyone given day. My advice so that is this, get your eye on the thing, whether on the ground or in the tree, and get that thing over there and get it killed. Juice common sense, do what you gotta do, you know, be a man and get the job done. And if you have to strip off and walk naked backwards to it, if that's the tactic that works that day, smear mud all of yourself and get the job done. I mean, don't don't go by all this. We have refined white til hunting down to a book. We've got the rules and the regulations. That's a bunch of crap. Everybody wants to you know, a book that can tell him how to do it. Well, the book is get your rear end out there and do it and learn and figure it out and it'll all work out. Yeah, I think you got I think what's what you just said. I mean you two are a perfect example of two completely different strategies, but both get it done. And I think you guys both play into your strengths. Like Eddie, you said, you you're so patient, so you're able to put in those days upon days in a single location and and waiting for a good buck to make the mistake and come by. And Jared admitted he's a little more impatient and it just enjoys chasing on the ground and that's his strength. So it's just so cool, you know, to hear two different perspectives. Um, I I kind of want to dive into a little bit of the stock. And I guess this would probably be more to Jared because he does more of this. But yeah, um, there's so many things to keep in mind, um obviously, uh, And I'm hoping you could dive into a few things. But like you know, from from the camel the lack of camel that you use, I've noticed that you tend to pick out colors that really match that prairie grass. Um. You know, the direction of the sun, which way the animals facing, um, even to the best time of the day to do this. So like for me, like when I'm hunting mule deer, I often, um, I'm often bedding them down and I have to keep all that stuff in mind obviously, the wind direction, which way the wind is the sun is facing, and all that stuff. And then I like to go after him kind of in that noon to one o'clock time frame because it seems like they're real kind of groggy at that time. They got their head down a lot, they're a little bit sleepy. I mean, do you do put do you pay attention to some of those things when you're going in for a white tailers, like when you see him, you're going in now. You know. I used to be rammier to where it was like we gotta go, we gotta go now. But more often now as I'm getting older, and sometimes I get burnt on this, but I'll put on that brakes. Like a few years ago or no, two years ago, we had a we had a good one that betted first first light. I mean within a couple of minutes of shooting light. He was betted already, And I was like, you know what, we we need some win to pick up. So that's another good thing about a lot of times we'll just look at weather dot com or whatever, and a lot of times you know your wins gonna pick up late morning and that's gonna be a better time for you to you know, have the noise cover that you might need to get in there close. Um. So so that's that's a good factor there. Plus they get settled in and comfortable. So like on this particular dear, I was like, Okay, he betted right at first light, and he's going to get up on his feet and stretch his legs. Probably within about two hours, whatever somewhere in there is for that particular day is what I figured. And I've seen a lot of deer do that. Now, sometimes you'll get lucky and they'll bed right back down there or reposition ten steps. But I've had situations where if I got a stock and I'm gonna have to lose my visual throughout this stock. I've done those before and hadn't waited for them to get settled in comfortable, and they got up and repositioned, and then I had to crawl back out of there and find him back, and maybe they moved two hundred yards, three hundred yards for nderd yards find him back, and usually don't find him back until they get back on their feet, which is, you know, a good chunken of the day. And now I might not have enough time to make a stock, So I think exactly what you said right there, that's that's usually when I think it's the best time is right that midday you wait for the wind to pick up um and that don't always happen. Some days you don't get that wind picking up, but that's pretty common, you know. I like a day that starts out where it's not very windy at all, if it's windy up sun up, your activity is going to be very very low if it's plus at sun up, but it'll be a better late morning mid morning, you know, movement not not maybe great, but better than first light is what I've found. Um. Well, one thing I do want to hit on, uh, when I do get a vigil on a big because you brought this up about sometimes we're just wearing tan clothes or whatever. It's not even a camel. So we tried Guilly suits the number of years ago. The problem with gilly suits in the sun the open country is unless you're laying flat on the ground, they get really dark on the backside where the sun you know, can't get to and then all the bunches of material if the sun's hitting him on a cross know like cross ways, you've got these bunches of material and you basically have a valley so you have a shadow, so they get real dark on the opposite side. So I don't like gilly suits for for that reason. I picked up I pick up I'm fortunate enough to pick up a lot of our mistakes in video, you know, when I'm editing, um, But when I get a visual on a big buck, and I bet him most of the time. I can pull this off, not every time, but I'm gonna plan my route obviously based off a wind direction being one and and and then other factors beyond you know after that. But I'm going to try to come straight in. You know, I'm not gonna you know, And I used to do this in the woods too, Like even if I didn't have a visual on a big buck, I try to picture where I think they're gonna be betting an approach that betting area where I'm coming straight out it because you've got so many shadows and highlights in the woods. I know we're talking more open country here, but I do the same thing in the open country. If I'm coming straight out of deer, there's a lot less movement than me coming in at quarterine to or even broadside, So I don't you know, I'm very careful on approaching a deer or a betting pocket where I think I might be able to visually pick one up. I'm always trying to come in straight on on it because there's a lot less movement for them to pick up. I you know, I've realized that I didn't realize I was doing that for a while, and it's just one of the things that I'm like, that's something I always do, and it makes a lot of sense. And and uh so I think it's a good point to bring up to somebody that's maybe never stocked before. Keep that in mind planning your route to just coming straight in on that deer. So sorry, Jared, can you I'm just not tracking when you say straight on coming in straight in, so that straight on in relation to the sun or straight in is in like you were just walking directly at where the deer is. Just explain that a little bit better. I'm all right. So from the deer's position, you know, you know a lot of times I'm crawling, but I'm gonna crawl straight, you know, so i might have to back out and do a loop to get the wind right, but then I'm to come straight straight head on. Does that make sense? So so so, so next time you and Andy are together and just put him a hundred yards out in the woods or in the open country. If he's coming in quarter into a broadside, that's a lot more movement than straight on. I know it sounds silly, but a lot of people don't. I think factor that in and and obviously when you're sneaking. The other thing is is I don't like to take my eyes off when I'm moving because the second I do that, They're gonna pop their head up at some point and I gotta be all freeze in that moment. And if I'm looking at where my I'm gonna plant my feet or whatever while I'm moving, and then I look up and they got me. So, um you got That's one thing. I can look at where I'm gonna go, like, Okay, I gotta move my leg like this, but I don't do that movement until I'm back looking at the deer. So if he picks his head up and and looks my direct action, I can instantly freeze. And if I didn't do that, I would get pegged a lot more substantially more minor little or major detail. But Jared, real quick, uh do you ideally is would you rather come at that deer kind of from the side, um, like, so you you gotta deer. Let's say he's he's bedded on just on the down or on the back side of a little hillside, you know, with the wind coming over the hill, and he's kind of facing down are you going to try to come in more from the side and slightly above or it seems like a lot of times you end up like literally like right over top of their back. So what ideally, what do you try to do? You know, That's the one thing. Every situation is different, you know. Um, if I can cross one, kill him, that's the way I like to generally do it. And I think the reason I just like to do it that way is because generally I can't come in directly down wind, and the cross winds the best I got and some you know, you got to really watch that wind though, because I mean I I missed out on a big one this year. I had a great win for a while and I was making a play on him and I was in compound range, but all of a sudden, I felt it on the back of my neck. It switched forty seconds and he got me. Um. So that happens from time to time. But it was really our only route. We only had an eight mile in our wind. Um. We had just just just the right setting to be able to pull this off with this situation, and unfortunately that wind just kind of switched on me. But a lot of times I'll I find that cross wind. Coming in on the cross wind is going to be the best route. Um. You know, I you know, in recent years, I found myself coming over the top a little bit more than I used to. UM, I don't like to do it generally when I'm trying i'd to actually, uh, when when I'm moving in on the deer, I don't like to do it as much. Um. It's just hard to film. It's really hard to film that you're coming over the top skyline. Skyline is already a tough deal. But when I'm like going into a draw. Let's say I'm hunting open country and it's kind of got some broken draws, and maybe I think there could be a big buck bedded down in this drawer, this ditch I find myself. I realized this last year. Over the last couple of three years, a lot of times I am coming over skyline so um, which isn't probably the way most guys should start out. UM. But I think I just over the course of time, I kind of developed a system to how I scan the open country, the draw system or whatever, to where I'm very confident about doing it, where I'm gonna have them spotted before they get me. Um. But the reason I I like doing it that way is because oftentimes I uh and I mean a lot better position to actually spot them. And I think a great example of that is actually the newest video we have out. There's a bonus disc in there. And there was a big buck that I was chasing and I had seven stocks and seven days, six were with him, and almost all those I think actually all those situations we had to come over the top to to move in on and but also to get the vision we didn't have. He was a deer that was bedded down at first light a lot of times. You know, he was a smart deer. It wasn't rut yet and and uh, we didn't get busted ever doing that over the top. But um, that's a fine line there. But I love doing that because usually I got a higher position to get a visual on them. So it's easy for me and that that particular system, you know, sometimes there'd be three, four or five different bucks in that, maybe a couple of does here, and I gotta know where all these deer are at. And if I'm coming like on a draw system, if I'm half way down, yeah, I'm not skylined anymore. But now I might be missing a deer or two that is gonna really screw me if I don't have their position. So if you can get good at spotting them first in a skyline type scenario where you're coming over a ridge, that's one thing that I think, uh I realized over the last couple three years, I started doing more of and I don't know how to describe that other than uh, I used to see more tails going the other way. Um, but I I think I just I do a really good job scanning the pockets where they might be betting, and then I'm confident of that that I've scanned that good enough that I don't go back there, and I focused on you know, when I move up a few more inches, now I just focus on this little sliver that I couldn't see before and kind of eliminate that. If that kind of makes sense. When you're coming over the top, you're really thread the needle on the wind. If obviously, if they're bedded with the wind of their advantage, right, Oh yeah, yeah, yes, some of those situations. Yeah, I mean, sometimes I'm coming over skyline and I have the wind working for me. But but that's a good point you know, And that's that's one thing in the open country when you're talking not the flat ground, you know, flat Kansas prairies that we've hunted, and he's hunted a lot, you know, then you go to kind of like that more. It sounds like you guys had a hunt here a couple of years ago where it was probably more like draws open country kind of stuff. Is that right? It is fun, you know, one thing that I realized by sitting back and glass and it's really fun to look at what the wind is gonna be, like how much wind are we getting today, and then be able to just set yourself up to be like, okay, all these deer are gonna be betting on this side, these types of draws, these types of ridges, and it gets pretty fun to be able to predict where there. I'm actually gonna take all that knowledge that I learned, and I'm planning to do more wooded stuff like I used to do again, because I can't wait to take what I've learned by watching them in that type of setting and how they use wind and and you know, I'll be able to eliminate a lot of acreage on a wooded set, you know, if there's a fifteen mile plus our wind in the woods, I'll be able to eliminate a lot of that acreage that I didn't ten years ago in a hunted woods, I didn't really do that is as much. So just just so people can follow along at home, how would you how would you apply that to the wooded setting? So when you're getting that strong wind, where is that going to push the bedding? Okay, so if I'm hunting ridge type stuff like say like the bluffs of Wisconsin or you know a lot of those types of rid Not all hills are like this, but a lot of that type of hill terrain, those you know, the bigger bucks are bedded right over the top of that ridge quite often. But you know there's different hill systems where that's not true. But that type of setting, now I would just take a look at the top. Okay, we've got a fifteen mile per hour plus wind today. They're not gonna be bettered, you know, in these types of settings, are gonna be out of that wind, catching it coming over the top. And I could just go into a wooded scenario and eliminate more of that acreage based off the kind of what you described. You know, Okay, the winds out of the west. You know, there's a draw you know, they're catching that scent coming over the top just a little bit, and they're out of the wind, so it's not you know, it's it's nice and quiet, you know, where they don't have a bunch of noise going on around them. Um, deer don't like that. The only deer that I've seen get comfortable with that is those flat planes, like Kansas deer. They just gotta get used to it. You know. Sometimes they can find a ditch like we were talking about earlier to crawl into. But and Eddie, you can probably expand some more on some of that. I don't spend I don't know why I spent my whole life stalking but not white tails. A lot I spent you know, meal deer, alk, antelope, whatever. And I don't know what I do compared to the think thinking process of everyone else. But like if I'm on the ground after something, I guess I would say the very first thing my mind assesses is the lay of the land, to where my first thought is, how can I get the absolute closest to this animal using the lay of the land. Before I even have to start thinking about the next step, which might be the wind or the sun angle or the cover or whether I can you know, am I gonna have I will try, Like if I spotted at five hundred yards, I want to if I can get to two hundred yards real quick by using the lay of the land, that's step one for me, you know. And of course I'm not going to run into that animal. It goes without saying. I don't even say this. Anybody with a brain knows you don't run in there and let them smell you, you you know what I mean. But using the wind, you're going to run in there and get as close you can using the terrain, and then stop, crawl up there, look at the scenario and assess how to do it. Whether you're gonna crawl on a sidehill or come over a skyline right behind them, It'll all depend on where they're batted in the cover and the wind. You know. The last part is the wind and the cover equation of a stock. To me, the first part is the lay of the land, because unless it's wide open, pull table flat, there's always usually some kind of hell or some kind of a swag you can use to cut your distance and half, you know, But anyway, I don't know if that was exactly what you asked me, but that's what I went on a tangent on. No, that's that's that's good stuff that that last moment though, So you use the land to your to your favor. Um. Jared described a little bit of what he's thinking about as he makes those final approaches. Can you give us a few more thoughts for your final approach once you do have to think about the wind, the sun, um, crawling versus sneaking, um, any other tips from your experience talking in on mule deer and whatnot. Yeah, you know, I get as close I can with the land, and I of course, like I said, I've already got an idea of what to win prevailing you and I will. I will use the land in conjunction with the wind from the start to get around on some side of that animal. That's as close as I can get to where I'm going to have the wind. That were when I start my final stalk, I know I've got the wind at least usable. I don't want to get as close as I can to the animal, and you know, and then end up with the wind not favorable to make the final part of the stop. So you've got to put them both in conjunction. But the lay of the lands the first part. When I get close, you know, then I'll stop for quite a bit of time and really watch like he does, and look at the surroundings. Pick him apart, because you know, you don't know what's laying there. There might be three or four him you haven't seen. There may be some more over there four hundred yards away in a bowl across the prairie that you know we're going to stand up. I've had I don't know how many times I've been stalking a particular animal and it get up and run off because another deer stood up over their four hundred yards away and flagged. You know. So you know, you gotta get close as you can to begin with, and then assess the situation. And then I'm just a firm advocate of all my stalking I do pretty much. It's not all, but it's if I can, I'm gonna do it on my knees and elbows. You know. If I'm a stalking hunt type guy, like an oper, whatever, elk anything, I'm keep as low profiles I can get I'm gonna belly crawl. I mean, the shadow you're throwing is significantly less. And you know, if you've ever watched the cow walk across the pasture in the early morning or late even and the thing's throwing at eight foot shadow, maybe that's moving along with it. Get as low as you can, you know, get down there where there there's no more for them, the spot moving, then your physical body, you know. And and really really important, really important to me is the part about he mentioned earlier about keeping your eyes on. I just absolutely don't move on an animal, hardly. If I'm in the final stages in the open, I won't move unless I'm watching that thing and knowing that he hasn't tuned into something, and that he's not alert, and that he's not goking right my direction at the moment I watched the you don't basically don't move if you can't see them good enough to tell what's going on. Wise wise words. H. I got a question on that. Uh, And I know this is going to depend completely on the situation, But which do you guys prefer? So, like, Uh, you sneak into a white tail mule deer or whatever, and he's betted Um, do you prefer to shoot them bedded down or is it something where you sneak into bow distance kind of wait for him to stand up and and give you that shot. I was. The reason I asked is because I was forced with this decision in Nebraska this year on a giant Muley, and I could have shot him in his bed. I was over him. I came from over the top like you're describing Jared, and he was twenty I don't know, three yards or something. But I had a great shot. He was facing directly away from me, but I don't know just the way that the way the hill was was kind of tapered down, and what I could see of his of his body, I just didn't feel super confident with it. So I just kind of sat there and waited, which was risky because you know that wind could have swirled at any time. But I just kind of let him do this thing and start. You know, he could tell he's starting to move around a little bit, move his head around, so I knew he was gonna stand. And then you know, after I don't know forty minutes or so, he stood and then gave me a shot. But what do you guys typically do. I know it's it's completely situational. But Jared, well, I think you made the right call. If you don't, if something doesn't feel right or you're not confident about that shot, you don't take it. Um. You know, a few years ago, Chancey snuck up on a big buck bedded in the plains of Kansas in the grass and that was after Thanksgiving. Um, but he snuck up there. I think he got six or seven yards from it, and it was a big old one. Um, and he shot at betted And I think that's the first betted deer that we ever had on a video that we shot. You know, I just wasn't really a big fan of it ever. But he brought up a good valid point and he said, you know how many times they stand up and they have us pegged, And now you're dealing with a deer that's just on pins and needles and might get ten inches a drop on you. There's a lot of variables in there. And I think if you have a good shot on a bedded deer, I don't think there's anything you know wrong with that. I don't think I've ever taken that shot, but I'm a lot more open minded to it than I was, because he had a lot of good points on that. I was like, yeah, you know, that's that's a good point, you know, I thought, so, Um, I mean, my favorite shot is a head on shot, but I'm hunting deer on the ground, not out of a tree stand, and that's a whole different ballgame. Um. And the first time I did it, it was an accident and I realized how deadly it really is from ground zero. And so my favorite is a head on shot then quartering to then broadside. But a lot of people wouldn't probably agree with that, but about everyone I've ever seen lost as a broadside. So if you're shooting a good setup, that's what I like. UM on that and so many times on the ground that happens I head on a recording to um, we find that to be pretty common. Um. So I know I kind of got sidetracked there, but no, that's good. But but you said it, you know, like I guess I kind of want to stress that to the listeners. A good setup is key. Oh yeah, A heavy, heavy arrow a good penetrating broad head. Right, So what do you you use? Something pretty darn heavy, don't you? I do. I actually just got a grain scale the other day. I was like, God, I've needed one of these for a while. I knew I was up there in the seven hundreds, but I waited, waited, and I got eight oh eight, and then uh I realized I had a lighted knock on there. So I'm a little bit under eight hundred on my heavy, heaviest setup. Um, and I'm shooting a two blade head, which I have my theories on that it's a cut on contact, but um, I look at a two blade cut on contact head like it's really a one blade head. Because when you got a split bone, you're only splitting in one direction versus a three billade. You actually have to break the bone three different directions. Um, you know which I'm all about least two. You know, getting through bone as easy as I can to get you breaking bone never never kills kills a deer, So you gotta get through it. And uh so I'm not afraid. You know, I've shot you know, a handful on that quarter into her head on with with the longbow, and I've never had a penetration issue. Um, so yeah, that's what I shoot. Eddy. How about you? I know you haven't stalked a lot of white tails, but even you know, even I think hearing some mule deer stories can even be helpful for guys that they were gonna hunt open country for white tails. But are you shooting them more bedded? Are you kind of situational? Well, I've shot a few bad as a couple over the years, and I can't tell you up front that I ever felt comfortable maybe with that because it's just a much more compact target that I feel a little less comfortable getting through the sign because you never you just never end up rarely shooting them in their bed or you're around on the belly side facing yet you know the sides you can get through the easiest. You're usually trying to shoot through their back or down off of a rise above them or something, and you just have a lot of bone structure. But I've shot him that way and managed to kill him real well, Um, I've had a wound or two over it. I won't hide that. But you know, the biggest thing was why I hate stalking is because I can get right up there to him a lot of times and then not get the bowshot accomplished, because you know, trying to get the bowshot accomplished without them being onto you and running off or jumping up and spinning around and you know, facing you, which you know I have a mental block. I have a literal mental block about shooting a deer facing me. I back in my early elk hunting career, I tried that a few times. Of course, now it was elk and it's a different ball game. I didn't get through their front structure, well I can. I have a literal brain dead spot up there that will not function in the heat of the moment that tells me to shoot them in the base of the throat. I have more of a tendency, like an idiot to try to shoot him in the chest and it, you know, trying to get through that stern hum is ridiculous. But I I have a problem getting them shot, you know, on their feet, uh, without them jumping up and running out there and looking back at me broadside at fourty or fifty yards, And then I'm into what I call a hope shot then and I just end up don't even take in the shot because I don't feel comfortable with it. I haven't had time to range it when it stopped usually and I'm not flinging in an arrow at it. So you know, that's the biggest problem I've had with my stock, and it's just getting the thing. I can often stock up to an animal and feel like I should have killed it, absolutely should have killed it, and it gets away from me because I'm just too cautious. I guess with my shots or something. But I haven't done it on the extent. You know that some of you guys have maybe to where I've got comfortable with shooting him at some oud angles and stuff. I'm I'm old school. I'm kind of a a sissy about you know. I need them where I know that I have a straight path into the vitals without a massive bone structure in the way. And uh, if I was going to shoot him like that a lot, I would definitely go up to that super heavy arrow and get as much kinetic energy and have it, you know, a good stout, built two blade cut on kept broadhead like he described that. That's good sense right there. So we have kept you guys are quite a long time. So I think we gotta wrap this one up. Even though I know that both Andy and I have a lot more we would love to talk about. But but maybe one last question from both of us. Um, if you guys are okay with that, Um, yeah, I'll drop one here and then Andy, I'll let you close this out. You both mentioned using decoys in one way or another, but we haven't really gone into the details of it, and you hear a lot about, you know, how effective decoys can be in that open country environment, because it's it's all you know, it's a site game and in so many different ways in these open environments. So I just would be curious to hear from both of you on exactly how you how you would use one. I know that, uh Eddie, you mentioned that you use one less than you used to that now you don't, but I still would like to hear you know, what the ideal decoy set up would be for you, you know how far away you put it, what angle you set it up at, when you would use it, etcetera. And then on the flip side, when I get to you, Jared, UM, I know you started using one maybe like ten years ago, and you've been using these, you know, self made decoys that you walk up, you know, behind, and I'm curious how your use of them has evolved because we talked maybe five years ago on the podcast Last Time about it, and you were talking about, you know, how you were figuring that out and getting aggressive with it and and kind of the crazy, dicey nature of sneaking up on a deer on the ground, holding a decoy out in front of you, and then getting these bucks to want to come in right at you. UM So, when I get to you, what I'm most curious about is how your use has changed over the past couple of years. Off at all, But let's start with Eddie. Can you can you run me through your decoy set up when you do use one and best practices. Well, you finally penned me in a corner. I may disappoint you with this one, but I can't help it. I gotta tell the truth. Honestly, I don't really feel qualified to really give out advice on d CON because I don't feel like I know enough about it. Um. I would be at infancy stages there, so I probably need advice instead of giving it. UM. My my experience with it out in the open country, it's absolutely there's times when it is performed miracles, and I have never done it enough to refine down my opinion on what is the best way to do it. I have stuck up a dough decoy before by itself. I like it high. I don't want it better. I want them up for like if I crack horns one a quarter mile away, I want to be able to turn and can see a deer over there, you know. And I've used small bucks, and I've used the two together. I've had all kinds of reactions, everything from eight to is the I've had those get really seriously. I rate it though, decoys and spitting, hiss and kick and run off and you know. And I've had bucks, young bucks come into them, real good old bucks come in. I've had them. I've had you know, bucks that literally seen repulse by another buck decoy. They're timid, some bucks have personality. Some of them are extremely aggressive, even when they're young. I've seen young bucks that went around trying to run everybody in the whole place off. And I've seen old bucks that wouldn't fight for nothing, and anybody that wanted to mess with them, they just turned and got away from them. So I think a lot of it more has to do with the the deer and the scenario and the time of the day, you know, the time of the uh season. As far as me telling you excellent der decoy set up and how to use it, I got a reflect on that one. I just don't feel like that's my wheel house, you know what I mean? Hey, that's that's fair enough. We appreciate that honesty. What what about you, Jared? You want to kind of update us on where you stand on the use of decoys while hunting on the ground and what what you're doing these days? Yeah, you know, Um, as far as the decoy, I treat it kind of like we talked to earlier. It's it's it's a tool. It's it's not gonna um it's not gonna be something I go to every time. In fact, I go to it less now than I I used to. You know, Um, what you were talking about there is how we were using a lot of that decoy you know, in the early years. That was ten years ago, Yeah, something like that. Yeah, ten years ago when we uh and we kind of developed that one or built that that homemade one. I wouldn't manufacture them because there's some dangerous in fault here with it, but a couple um. But anyways, Uh, my ideal situation. If I got a big buck he's locked down with a dough, if I can't sneak in on him and close that that that distance. Um, to make that shot. A great way is to crawl in there with that decoy without him knowing, and then when he's looking the other way, you gotta break that perimeter zone though, And that's a very fine line. Like. Um, what I mean by that is there's a certain point where another buck gets close enough to this mature buck and his dough that he's gonna run a run that other buck off. And every deer has its own threshold, just like Eddie was saying. They all have their own attitude and personalities. And some I could pop that decoy up at sixty yards and they'll come, they'll leave their dough to come over and cause you know, run me off. Um, And I'll be right behind that decoy if that's what I'm gonna gonna do that. But other bucks, uh, you might need to get the thirty forty yards. Well, for a lot of compound shooters, you're in range there. Um. For me, that's kind of pushing it on where I feel comfortable shooting longboat wise. Um, So that's how I like to use it. Now. Chance he's been using it a lot when he calls, so he'll go into places you know, um to do rattle sets. He loves to do that, you know, late pre rut, pre rut, late pre rut and then post rut. He loves to do that. And he loves to set that decoy in a spot that's kind of tucked into where if they come in, they'll they'll catch it, but it's kind of blended in, you know. And and he loves doing that because it gives that dear. I mean, we're set up on the ground. We're very um, not concealed. I guess you would call it. And uh, you know that the camera is pretty big that we use. So you've got two guys, they're set up on the ground. So Chance he really likes, you know, if you're a solo hunter. I think Eddie brought up some great points about how you know, it's worked magic and it's also drawn a lot of attention in a negative way to so um. But as people can see or have seen in the videos, he he does it for calling a lot and has had some pretty good success doing that. Um. But yeah, that's kind of where I said, you just gotta be careful if you're gonna set up behind that decoy like what I'm talking about, Um, you gotta be looking for other hunters. Uh, you don't want to get shot. And that's kind of a dangerous. So I don't really advocate it too much. Um, And you definitely don't want to use one during guns season obviously you're already hunting public lands. And and uh, I've already heard one horror story where it could have been a lot worse. But you know, it was during the bow season. But some young fellas that have been drinking or something and uh fired a gun, thought it was a big buck and uh, luckily they missed. It wasn't me, but it was somebody that I ran into in the can planes of Kansas. That could have been a bad deal. So I always if I see a vehicle coming up the road and I got the decoy out and the big if I can do this, I'll pull that decoy down. I don't even want that other guy to know him what's going on. Or Yeah, I mean that's just kind of how I am anyway. But you know, and and then too, it's it's a it's a rush when you've got a big buck inside of ten yards coming to charge you, it's a rush, but don't kid yourself, there's nothing safe about that. Yeah, So a couple of things to think about. I think it's if we're gonna talk about that kind of decoy and it's wise to just, you know, understand, think about things in that in those two departments. Yeah, yeah, very very important. Thank you for for bringing it up for sure. Okay, So so there's our decoying ideas, whether from a tree standard on the ground. Uh andy, how do you want to wrap things up here? Man? You know what these guys have, They've pretty much answered everything that I had down. I just I guess I just want to end it with telling them thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. Two guys that I really admire, look up to, and uh I thought it was really cool to hear the two different perspectives from two guys that are beyond successful, consistently successful in this type of country. So just thanks again guys for coming on. Yeah, thank you guys for having us. I mean, I think I've absolutely, like, absolutely thank you much. I'm glad to be in the brotherhood. It's a great group. Well, right back at you, guys, I I'll second what Andy said. This has been a lot of fun. I know we all learned something and everyone listening for sure too. And the and the biggest thing is that now I am just chomping at the bit ridiculously to schedule my own open country hunts this year and definitely make sure I'm back out there because uh man, just just thinking about these scenarios and thinking about that swaying grass and the big blue skies overhead and looking off in the distance and seeing times coming through the grass, you just, uh it gets like the hair is standing up on my arms and I'm just ready to do it. So thank you guys for inspiring that feeling in me right now. Absolutely it is all right. Let's wrap this one up, and that's a wrap. I enjoy this a lot. I hope you did too. If you want more from these guys, I would suggest going and picking up a copy of Peterson's Bohuni magazine where you can read some articles from Eddie, or head on over and follow White Tail Adrenaline on their Facebook page or check out their website where you can pick up Jared's most recent DVDs. There are a lot of fun. You get to see some of the things you just talked about, and it's it's just as crazy as it sounds. So go out and support those guys and try adding some of this stuff to your repertoire um. Trying new things is one of my absolute favorite parts of deer hunting. I constantly want to learn more, I constantly want to grow and evolve, and I think that there are ample opportunities for us to take some ideas here in our open country discussion and do just that. So thank you again for your attension, thanks for your time, and until next time, stay wired. Tell h

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