00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. In this is episode number three seventy and today we're hearing from six different white tail experts on the ins and outs of hunting deer during the month of October. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today we're celebrating the month of October. It's here, and let me tell you what. I am really really excited about it. Uh, that's no surprise, I suppose anyone listening. I'm sure you're pretty excited as well. This is an amazing time of year. I just wrote an article actually over at the Meat Eater website in which I made the claim that October is the most interesting month of the entire hunting season. And I say this because it's this month full of tension and anticipation. It's it's it's just like the analogy I used is a roller coaster that you know, that first hill of a roller coaster when you're just slowly going up and there's that click click click click click as you get closer and closer and closer and closer to the top, and then you get to the very top and it's, oh my god, it's about to just drop off from underneath me. That feeling, that rise, that's what October is like for me. That month just slowly builds towards the rut, and you know, any second now things could just go crazy. But you don't know when that's gonna be. It could be it might not be till the very end of the month, but it could also be October three when a big cold front comes pushing through and the woods just lights up, or that first early dough comes in the heat on October fift and all of a sudden, it's it's nuts. That can happen at any point, and even if that doesn't happen, it's just the slow, steady rise of testosterone in the bucks and excitement for all of us, and each day it's going to be different. Speaking of that difference, there's just this incredible diversity to the month, where you know, what's going on in October one is very different from what's going on and from how you should hunt on October fift, which then again is even more different from what you're doing on October thirty one. There's there's almost three different hunting seasons just within the month of October. So for all of those reasons, I wanted to take a step back today and and kind of try to get a big picture strategy session going on for all things October. And to do that, I wanted to to use a diverse set of voices and a bunch of different ideas here and and I'm lucky we have that kind of resource right at our fingertips here on the wire Hunt podcast, because we've been doing these things, having these conversations with the best of the best in the white tailed world for seven years now. Myself and Dan Johnson we got this thing cracking in the spring of two thousand four, teens. We've been doing this for what seems like a lifetime. And what I've realized though, is that we're recently here. A lot of you who have just joined us in the past couple of years, you've missed out on a lot of really good stuff from those early podcasts, some really foundational conversations back in Chosen fourteen fifteen sixteen, and it really hasn't seen the light of day compared to our recent things. So here's my game plan for this one. I've gone back through our archives and selected six different white tail experts from those early episodes who covered various aspects of hunting in October. I went back and listened to those and I hand picked a selection of excerpts from those conversations. And sometimes those are five minutes, sometimes it's twenty minutes. But on piece together, between these six different people, you get this very interesting, very varied, very varied what I'm trying to say is very diverse set of ideas for hunting throughout the upcoming month. Now, keep in mind, when you're listening to this set of experts and these different people, you're going to hear some conflicting ideas. One person is going to say one thing, the next person might say something completely the opposite. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's an interesting and good thing. And if you've listened to this podcast over the years, I've I've said this time and time again. I'm gonna say it again. There are a million different ways to skin this cat, that being hunting and killing deer. There's a lot of different ways to do it, and You can have totally different ideas from one person to the next, and they can both be very successful. So I love comparing and contrasting these different sets of strategies and circumstances when you're when you listen to this, listen to these people, think about the circumstances that they're in, the types of place is they're hunting, the way that they hunt, and then compare and contrast that to what you have in what your situation is. Do you hunt public your private? Do you hunt big farms or small farms? Do you hunt you know, do you have a lot of time to hunt, just a few days to hunt? Think about those things as you listen to these people, and I think that's going to help you figure out what's the best set of ideas to pull from this to apply to your own hunts. Now here's who's up to bat today. We're gonna hear from Gordon Whittington, Dan Infult, Bernie Beranger, Jeff Sturgis, Adam Hayes, and Mark Drewy in that order. Now, keep in mind, these are just little polls from much larger conversations. So if you're intrigued with, you know, with any one of these experts, I'd really encourage you to go back search for the full episode with each person and give those a listen. Um, when we get to the beginning of each different person, I'm gonna mention who it is and then what number of that episode is, so you can easily go back into your podcast app and and find that one these are. These are way back there, so you have to do a little searching. But every one of these is really good in their own way, so it would definitely recommend to do that. Before that, though, I guess one last thing I want to do. I want to give you a few things to think about from from my perspective as someone who sat here for seven years now hearing from all of these folks and more, and trying to synthesize all of this down into a few guiding principles. Um. I I don't claim to be in the same level as any of these guys, but I think if any of you have followed along since excuse me, since the beginning, it's I've had. I've had a cool opportunity to to take all these different tips and tactics and ways of hunting, take it all in and guinea pigs. Some of these things myself. So for whatever it's worth, here's a few of my high level October hunting one oh one pointer. I guess a few of the of the big if I were writing an article or if I were writing a book even on hunting October, these might be four really important chapters of that book. So I'm gonna give you the high level on that. That'll be a good starting point, and then from they're gonna send you in to these in depth, much more detailed conversations with these six people. So here's my starting points for October number one. If you have an October one opener, like we do in Michigan, you've got a really unique opportunity coming up. Right. If you're listening to this on the day of this podcast drops, it is October one, and those first couple of days of the month represent one of your very best chances of the entire season. And you know, if you had a September fifteenth opener, you had that special opportunity on September fifteenth, if you've had a September one opener, etcetera, etcetera. But but for those of us listening today in Michigan or elsewhere, Illinois was a whole bunch of states opening right now. Those first couple of days of the month represent this special chance because these deer have not been heavily pressured up to this point. So I love taking a big swing on one of those first couple of days. These they are still acting relatively normal, They're still much more daylight active than they might be a week or two from now, and they're on those patterns to a degree, they're still on a bedding to feeding pattern. So what you want to do is have as much information at your fingertips as possible. Maybe that's trail camera images, Maybe that is actual long distance observations that you're doing in the knights leading up to the opener. Maybe this is historical data sightings and pictures from last year and the year before. But take whatever information you have to put together the very best guess at where you think that Buck or Bucks in general would be feeding right now. Because it's really a food game in early October, you need to know what that top food sources and then take an aggressive swing into the very best spot you can think of given that. So again you need to identify what the number one food sources right now and get as close to that food source and to wherever the best betting is, where you've come to find box or betting, try to get in between that and aggressively put yourself in the best position. Again, I like to go for that top, top option right now, because again you've got a little window here October one, October two, maybe the third, and then if there's a lot of pressure around you, you know, by the tenth eleven, it could be a totally different ball game. So take that aggressive swing at the top food source right now. Now, as I mentioned, things can quickly change, and as you're gonna hear from a bunch of people coming up, and as I'm sure many of you've heard in the past, there is this thing that a lot of people refer to as the October lull. Right, people say, well, once you get into October, you know, the second week, third week, even you know, once you get into the first past the first couple of days of October, you're gonna get this October lull, which a lot of people see as this this decrease in daylight dear activity. Because of that, a lot people don't like to hunt during mid October, or we'll just hunt does in mid October or whatever. Here's my perspective on this is that it's not so much a lull as it is a shift. You have studies have shown a steady increase in dear activity and buck activity throughout the month, but that's not necessarily what a lot of people see. And that's because after the first week of October, so a bunch of things are changing in the woods. Number one, a lot more deer hunters. Number two, a lot of changing food sources. Right, if you hunt an egg land, you know, farm country, your beans are drying down and not as attractive anymore. Corn is drying down and becoming more attractive. You probably have a lot of acorns possibly dropping. You're gonna have other soft massed trees like apple tree starting to drop apples in certain parts of the country. Not only that, but you've got leaf cover dropping across the country as it gets colder. So you have changing food sources and changing cover, also coding siding with more hunting pressure. All that just means a lot of change in dear activity. They're going to react to those changes. They're gonna just where the hunting pressure is. So this just means there's a lot of movement not that you're gonna see, but movement in patterns. So these bucks might still be daylight active, they might still be on your property, but because of some of these changes, because of hunting pressure, whatever it is, they might just be doing this closer to their bedding areas. Or maybe they're not hitting that big old bean field that you saw them on a month ago, but they're hitting acorns in the timber. You've got one of two options in my mind for the middle of October, this October shift time frame. I'm gonna say this is October seven through October twenty one, maybe give or take um. I think if you don't know your area, or if you are relatively inexperienced, or if you just don't have a strong handle on how dear react to those changes I just described, this might be a time to play a little more safe hunt the edges, observe um. Maybe target does. Maybe if you've got like one small property that's your best stuff. Maybe you don't hunt your best stuff right now. Maybe you go and hunt some nearby public land and experiment, try different things, get aggressive there, but without blowing out your honey hole quite yet. That's if you don't have a strong handle on your spots. But if you do have a strong handle, or if you are really experienced, you know your property as well, you've scouted, you know where these bucks are betting. If you have that kind of intelligence not I'm not saying like i Q, I'm saying like intel, like uh, scouting information. If you have that kind of stuff, it can be a good time to get aggressive because these bucks are still on a pattern. They are still tight to their core areas. So if you know that stuff, they're they're killable. You'll hear from people like Dan Infult who this is a great time for them because they know where those buck bedrooms are and they go in tight and they hit those things hard and they can have success. So you either play it safe or you have to be very aggressive to get into these spots where these bucks are still daylight active. It's just high risk, high reward. So think about that number three. October really is a month of playing the weather game. Uh. You can have a situation that just happened here a few days ago, so there's a little bit pre October. But just you know, the very last couple of days of September, we had a big cold front past through here in Michigan, and it just lit up the woods. I mean, I was glass in an area last night and I saw eight or nine different bucks on their feet two hours before dark, a full hour plus earlier than I've seen any of these bucks moving until this front hit and then bam, here they are, including a mature buck. There was sparring, they were scraping, and it was directly linked in my mind to this big twenty degree temperature drops. So when you get those big temperature drops, you gotta jump on them. You gotta go and take advantage of them. Most of month of October is predicated on when this good weather comes through. When it's swarm and creddy, I might still hunt, but I'm not gonna hunt my good stuff. But when the good fronts push through, I'm gonna take my swings. That's when I'm going to strike. Okay. And finally, speaking of strikes, this last portion of the month that last ten days or so, really the last six or seven days of the month. If I'm drilling down even further, this is one of your very best chances the of the year. In my mind, You've got this moment and you're gonna here. Mark jury talks talk about this where you have two things coming together in a special way. You've got bucks that are still hanging tight to their core areas and they're still on a little bit of a pattern. So if you know a buck, or if you know where a couple of bucks are spending a lot of time, and you've got history with his deer and you know your property, well, you can still have confidence that they're gonna do that thing. They're still going to be in that area, you know, but that pattern is overlapping. Think of like a ven diagram where this overlap is. This is overlapping also with the beginning of the rut. So you've got the super high testosterone. You've got bucks that are looking for the first dough. Maybe the first dough does come into heat. That's all happening while these bucks are still hanging out in that area that you know. So you can kill these bucks in spots, you know, while they're still hanging on the spots, you can hunt and they're getting a little frisky. Early ten days later November seven, this this pattern can be blown up. Now they're doing crazy things. Now they're running all over the place. These bucks are roaming a mile down the road instead of writing your forty acres. So take advantage of that last window in October. Take a surgical strike into these spots where you know these bucks are living. But now you've got the chance they're gonna move an hour early. And if somehow you can get that cold front that hits in late October, holy smokes. Get in there. Canceled work, canceled dinner plans, uh, whatever you gotta do. That is that's the good stuff right there. So those are four high level October ideas to think about over the next thirty one days. There's a lot more we're gonna get into with these next six people, though, a lot of good ideas. We're gonna kind of bounce around a lot. You're gonna hear about, you know, should you hunt mornings or not. You're gonna hear what do you think about the October law. You're gonna hear about different stands that you different stand ideas you should think about. You're gonna hear about different weather conditions and how these guys think about them during October. A lot of different stuff. But keep in mind these four high level ideas. Keep in mind when it's in the very beginning, try to cherry pick what you can use from all these different things. And finally, as we get through this, these are interviews I described as I mentioned from two thousand, fourteen fifteen sixteen. This is a long time ago. So you're gonna hear myself and Dan Johnson, who helped me out with a lot of these early episodes. You're gonna hear us asking some questions or even sharing some of our perspectives that might be different than and what I think right now. So anything I say during these old school interviews take with a grain of salt. This is this is young Mark, this is old Mark. This is old Dan. And you'll hear me called Dan Dallas too, that was his old nickname. We're gonna get a little old school here. But when you're hearing from our guests, it's some good stuff. It's some varied stuff. And I guess you know, as I'm building all this stuff, you don't want to hear from me anymore. Let's let's stop with the Mark Kenyan rambling. Let's get into our six expert opinions are October Masterclass, and we're gonna kick this off with Gordon Whittington of North American White Tail Magazine for the fifteen minutes actually before you came onto the show with us, me and Dan, we're just talking about our October hunting woes, all of things have gone wrong for us, and how we have not killed a deer yet. Um. And that's kind of what I wanted to start our conversation with Gordon was just about some of the challenges of hunting this time of year we're entering and we've all heard a thousand times were entering this period of the season that many people referred to as the October Law. Um, I guess maybe what do you think about that, Gordon? Is there such a thing? Do you believe that the October law is? Is that factor fiction? Well, I think there is no question that at various times of the fall, and really year round obviously, but during the time of year when hunting is legal. We all know there are times a year when your probability of seeing a mature buck on his feet in legal shooting light are better than others. It depends on habitat, weather, moon phase, but mostly hunting pressure to some extent, habitat type. There's all these different factors involved, dear densities, so many things, but I would say that in general, if you if you talk to the guys who have let's say, like in Michigan, October one bow opener of the illinor it that way, you know, right around October one, at least you've got you know, the deer have been out of velvet for three weeks to a month. The bucks are you know, of course, somewhat reclusive and solitary. Really when they come out of velvet, they come other bachelor groups. They really go into a short travel pattern. They don't move much in daylight. Even if they're not spook or being hunted, they're not moving a long way to food. And you know, maybe out in the prairie of Wyoming you've got deer walking two miles when alfalfa fielding back, you know, even in early season. But for the most part, in most habitats you have deer on a very short travel pattern. And that's you know, compounded by the fact that then suddenly we get the acorns and the other fall masts that starts to come into play. And that's so that's mostly back in the woods and we're trying to kill these deer on the edges because we don't want to penetrate their sanctuaries, and yet their sanctuaries might literally have acorns dropping into their bedding areas. As those deer lying there waiting for dark, Well, that deer has got very little and sent him. Unless he's really thirsty, he's got very little incentive to get up and move much in daylight. And I think if you look at Reggio telemetry and you look at all the different GPS studies that have been done on while deer, you'll see that mature bucks just have a very short travel pattern at this time of year. So there aren't if you have the terminus, let's say is a food plot, and it may be the best food plot in the county, and you may have the best bedding area two yards away from there in a swamp or something. If that buck is in that swamp and he's going to that food plot at night, he's got very little ground to cover to get there, and he can get on his feet right at dark, you know, stretch a little bit, rubbed his rack a couple of times, and then prance right out to the food plot, and he's already too late for you to kill him. Now, that's just the fact a lie that you know, hunting pressure didn't necessarily cause that. It might have accentuated that pattern, but it didn't really cause it. He's just got no incentive to get there early. He's also got no incentive to stay there after daylight in the morning. By the time you got daylight coming over with a food plot, he's normally back in a place where you can't get him killed. So these are just realities, and he's not very responsive to rattling or calling. Generally speaking, you don't want a good deer drive. There's all sorts of things that you're not going to do an early season that otherwise might compensate for that lack of mobility on his partner's a lack of a daytime pattern. You put all that together, and that's a really long winded way of saying, Uh, they're hard to kill now, but but we understand why they're hard to kill. They're just not on their feet much in daylight. And and I don't know what you can ultimately do to change that pattern very much. Trail cameras clearly have made it easier for us to pinpoint those locations where they're spending time, but you have to be very careful not to blow the deer out, either checking cameras or going in to hunt that spot, and a lot of guys just get so impatient, and early season there's like, oh, man, Paul's finally here. I've been waiting all all year to get in the tree. I'm going, well, when is not quite right, I'm going anywhere, you know, I gotta go with Saturday. I'm going, well, you can go and blow him out and not see him a game for three months and have your neighbor killing three weeks later. And that's a lot of times. It's just the reality of what happens is that we just don't have the discipline to wait for better conditions. So would you typically recommend Let's say we've got someone who's hunting in that type of scenario you just listed there where he's not getting daily troal camera pictures of a buck. He's not seeing daily activity from a buck yet because of that situation, right, he's this buck doesn't need to travel very far. Maybe he hasn't been overly pressured yet, but he just doesn't have that incentive to move during daily So that's our scenario. Would you tell this person all right, I guess would you typically think this hope of person should wait until the rut, or are there some things that they should do now to try to still make it happen. I would. I would go to a separate area and try to get my dose shot. That's the first thing I would focus on. If I can't get him in the in the setup that I feel is most likely to produce an opportunity in the first time or two or three, that I sit there during the earliest days of season and catch him unaware and possibly get him shot before he knows the season it's even open. If I can't do that, I'm gonna pull out. I'm gonna go somewhere else. I'm gonna try to get my doze shot, Or to be honest with you, for many of us, it's I'm gonna try to get all my jobs done around the house so that when prime time gets here, I can spend more time in the woods. And I do think that's some of It's a function of time allocation. We all have limited time, even those of us who hunt quote for a living, we all still have other things in our life we have to do, and the worst thing in the world is to put all those off hunt hard in October, mess up your spot didn't come the fifth and November, and realize you're behind on your honey dues, and then have to spend three days in prime time catching up so you can then go and chase deer again. I mean, I think sometimes we just don't have a really good game plan. And because of that. It's not to say people don't kill big ones in October lad in mid October. They certainly do. I mean there's been some big ones kill the last you know, a couple of weeks all over North America. But the number of people hunting relative the number of big deer opportunities is with a pretty skewed ratio. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's hard to argue with that that it's definitely possible, but at the same time as challenging, at least from everything I've ever learned and from all the different people we've talked to on this podcast, I think, you know, one of the big things that comes down to is, you know, there's certain types of conditions, or certain little weak spots in a big box armor of sorts that you can take advantage of if you have that perfect scenario for it. But eight times out ten, you know, either you don't have that scenario or you don't have all the intel that you need to make a smart move, or whatever it might be. Eight times out of ten, usually smarter bet is to wait until those right conditions, because to your point, when you start pushing in there and doing things before at the times, right before the scenario was right, you're just gonna muck things up before you ever even had a chance. And then when you might have had that better chance, maybe in late October or November, whatever it is, or when the cold front comes through, you know, now you can't take advantage of that because you've already educated that buck. And that's a tough lesson to learn. Yeah, it's difficult, and I could never blame anybody for saying, Look, I just flat enjoyed being in the deerwoods, and even if it messes up my chances of killing the big one, I want to go. Well, how on earth could you tell a guy that you shouldn't go? I mean, I you know, a deer. Deer hunting is supposed to be to be fun, and if that's fun to him and he's legal and safe and ethical, then good for him. I mean, I hope he shoots one, but if he doesn't shoot one, I at least know that he was out there, you know, exercising his right and the privilege to go hunting and be part of the American hunting force that we're all so proud of. So I don't really and it's hard me to bash that guy and say, oh, you're crazy or you're not being smart. I mean, I would like for him to see the payoff for doing things a little different way. But I'm never going to bash him because he made a quote poor decision and and educated the buck that he might have otherwise shot. I mean, that's that's his call, not mine. Yeah. Now, given your position, you know, with North American Whitetail magazine, you get to hear a live different perspectives from other writers and hunters who do sometimes push a little bit more in October and have success. Are there any I don't know, any standout tactics that you have seen from some of these other guys who do like to focus on October that either intrigue you the most or that you think have the most merit. Well, I think if you, I thank you, You've got control of your land and have a tactic where you can have number one, a very relaxed deer herd, you know, and and and go out of your way to minimize the pressure on those deers so that you can wait for that little cool front that really gets the buck a little bit more active, you know, a little earlier in the evening, coming out to the plot, and you've got a plot set up so that you've got places between bedding and feeding where you can get him shot. I do feel like if you can, if you can almost landscape your proper or your hunting area that way, or or put the scouting in to find those situations that clearly that's going to give you an advantage over the guy who's just randomly going to go say, well there's acorns falling here, and there's some deer pellets. I think i'll set here. Um yeah, he might kill the many world record, but the chances are better for the guy who's actually got a plan, as we all know. So so I look at it and say, yeah, if you can find that, you know a place where deer or pushed a little bit more into a travel pattern because the topography changing crops possibly, um, you know, you've got isolated food sources as opposed to widespread food sources. If you can find those little honey hooles, if you will and really be super careful with the wind, be being very disciplined about how you go in there and get out of them, and hunt them lightly, but give yourself a chance on the periphery of that dear's travel pattern to get a crack at him if he makes a little bit of a slip up one afternoon or one morning. But you know, day and day out, you're just going to have to be very disciplined and how you approach it, because again it's it only takes one slip up on our part and the buck is totally educated to at least that particular hunting set up. Now, he might continue to roam widely across the area and get shot by somebody else, but but his knowledge of that one particular ambush site that you've set up. We want to minimize that. And we and you know, whether it's you know, because we've hunted it sloppily. You know, we went in there wrong wind, or we threw trash on the ground, or we didn't you know, we didn't we went into bad conditions and we've basically left a lot of of of tell tale knowledge for him to pick up by our presence. Even if he didn't come by the stand when we were in it, he still knows we were there. And what we got to just continue to go back to is minimizing the possibility of that. But I do think that the guys that are most successful, most often or really just crowding in as far as they dare on the downwind side of a travel pattern that they have reason to know is there either because of sightings you know, sign or more often anymore, it's just simply trail camera images that tell them that they're on the right pattern. Just don't have to be careful about how you hunt it. Yeah, And speaking of that whole topic of you know, just being particularly careful about everything related to hunting pressure, UM, you might remember I actually wrote an article for North American Whitetail a few years ago about how I personally have decided to minimize almost completely the number of mornings that I hunt during early to mid October UM. And it's a long running discussion that me and Dan here have with between ourselves and other guests and stuff. Guess I'm just curious about your take on that. What's your perspective on morning hunts in early to mid October. Well, I have shot some some books in the morning in let's say the third week of October somewhere and there where, of course, but later you get an October the generally speaking to better things we're going to get. Um. I have had a little bit of luck on some bucks, some early bucks, starting to cruise small isolated food plots and sometimes even coming into a to a buck decoy, and I've had I've had pretty good luck doing that. I do feel like that kind of minimizes my disturbance of any real security cover because I'm out there on the edge of an opening, and uh, I can hunt that way. And if he if he comes out and he sees a decoy and he's responsive to it, then he comes around, gives me a shot, he's the right buck, then then I'm golden. If it doesn't happen, I've not at least not disturbed any significant security cover in the process. I can back out, take my decoin, go home. So I have seen. You know, sometimes you tend to think I've got to be back in the deepest, darkest swamp to kill one, you know, during this low period. Maybe not, but you do need a little bit of weather or something to get that buck a little bit more interested in what's about to come in November. And if you get that set of conditions, I do think that's a great time to get to get a shot at. You know, it's some relatively mature buck. Okay, Next, we're gonna get a very different set of ideas from Dan in Falts. You know him from The Hunting Beast, you know him as an aggressive public land in d I, y bow hunter. Here's some ideas from Dan. I want to take a step back here real quick to get started because you know this time frame, this middle portion of October. Lots of people refer to that as the October lull. So me and Dallas were just talking about this are different opinions on this, but I want to hear from you, Dan, is the October law Is that fact or fiction? You know? Um? I would say it's it's it's somewhat fact um somewhere in the middle there. I mean, you do get less moving in daylight, um during this time frame. I think it's starting to pick up now, but during that early October frame, I think that you do get less movement, but I don't see a law because I'm pushing those dead and areas. I'm still getting them, you know, in daylight seeing them, but I'm definitely seeing them closer to the edge of darkness. And a lot of the bucks I am seeing that are good bucks. Um, during that time frame, only gettings from those beds. So I think where most people are seeing a low as they're sitting over food plots or food sources, you know, or acorn patches or stuff like that, and they're seeing less moving in daylight. Um, I'm still seeing the same amount of moving at that time frame. I'm just seeing it later in the day. Okay. And what do you think is causing that decline and dear activity? Most people are saying you said that these deer staying closer to the bedding areas later. Um, I've got some different ideas, and there's been a number of different hypotheses you know, thrown around there about what caused that later movement or less um decreased movement. But what do you think it's causing that day? For me, it would have to be a guess. Um. I think some of it has to do with the heat and the fact that they're changing their coats to winters winter coats, because it almost seems like when that cold hits, you know, that that period of time and that evening when it gets cold and so when they get up and move. But that's pure speculation on my part, okay. And maybe I imagine maybe some hunting pressure might cause that too from a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, I think so. But you know, I have on some spots that don't get much pressure, and I still see it places with pressure and I see it, so okay. Interesting. So then that being the case, you know this time frame, you said that you're still seeing that activity because you're pushing it close to beds and close to bedding areas, um. And I think you know that is I'm sure something I want to talk about here. And are there any other major tactics other than that the year employing this time of year to get close to those dear or does your entire strategy revolve around those betting areas at this time? I would never see my entire strategy revolves around any one thing. Um. But there's one tip I'd I'd love to give your listeners that they probably haven't heard before. And this is gonna sound a little weird to you, but I guarantee it's true. Um, right around the first week of October to the second week maple leaves when they first started turning orange and dropping, when they just first started dropping. They have a bigger draw than acorns. Um. But you have to have isolated maple leaves them things hit them like you wouldn't believe. I think they get a sweetness or something when they first die, when they start dropping. Um, but they're a huge draw. I first learned that from Andre Dia cuistal Um. He told me that when we were on a hunt one time and I we paid attention after that and he was dead on. I observed it many times and moving to these uh little maple patches. Wow, that's definitely something I never thought about. Got a I got a maple tree in my backyard, Maybe I should hunt in my backyard. How close is the betting probably a couple of miles. So so that said, then let's let's cycle back to the betting area topic, because I think there's a whole lot we could talk about in this and we talked a little bit about it back in March or April whenever we chatted with you the first time, dan Um. But I guess let's start at the highest level and then just keep on diving deeper. Can you give us a high level overview of of what you're doing when it comes to hunting these betting areas. When you're heading in for a hunt, what are you thinking about, why are you doing it, and how are you setting up? Well, there's two different ways I go in on these betting areas, and in the best way is if I prech scout of it, and I've gone in and say January February and really taking a good look at this betting area and looked at how that's your stage, and look from their perspective at how to set up. That's the best scenario because then when I go back and I go in for the first time in hunt, I've got a really good shot to kill him. The second scenario is I haven't hunted the area, and like this last book, I'm going in and I'm guessing on the betting. I think I do a little better than other people on that aspect because I've been looking at these bets for so many years that I have a good, good knack of reading them, if you know, if you know what I mean, But those are like two mean scenarios. Is guessing the betting or knowing it from previous scouting. Okay, and so how about we go let's talk about that first scenario, and then I really wanted to have in that second scenario too, because that might apply to people at this point who who maybe are just trying to figure this out as they go. But for someone who already has this betting area scouted out, let's say, like you, you're already have a whole lot of different betting areas across numerous properties that you plan hunting. You know, how do you have those prepared? Do you have stands hung up? Or I think from what I remember, lots of times you're setting up on the on the go. But can you talk to us about how you are choosing which ones you're gonna hunt on a given day and then you know when you're heading in and what do those setups look like? Okay, Well, you know some of the bet in areas are based on like acorns, you know, or corn or or some food source. And if you know that food source and knowing that food source is available, you know when the hunted. Um some you know, I don't have any idea why they're betting there except for that it's a good bet in area, and I got to kind of, you know, go in and check it out. Maybe you got a hunt in September, maybe a hunt later in October, maybe a rut hunt, and try and figure out when they're there. Are you using wind direction at all to help make that decision? Is that from absolutely um? But but there's there's one thing about wind, is it's more important on the hill country directionalize then it isn't swamps. A lot of times it swamps. They've been on these points and and fingers and a little patches, um, not based on the wind at all. So you can have the wind in your face and and really do well. But in like hill country, Um, they've been on that leeward side on the points and such. So you gotta play that one a little bit. You gotta play it off wind, um if you're gonna get him on the hill side, which is a lot better than hunting downhill because then you get the thermals busting you. So yeah, when the wind plays a huge direction, I mean a huge wind plays a huge factor in um, in choosing where you're gonna hunt and why, and more more so than just keeping your wing from getting to the book. In a lot of cases, they've been in a certain position because of the wind. Can you tell us a little more about that last part there? You know why they've been in a certain area. Um. There's a lot of different different opinions on this. You bucks wall enter a bedding air with the wind in the face, or the bed for the window over their backs, or they'll only leave with the wind in their face. You know what. What's your take on that? On how deer use the wind when choosing wear to bed and how to leave their bed and approach the bed in the first place. That's a good question, and whant to hear a lot And as you can imagine, I've observed a lot of deer going in and out of beds, and the overall majority of them come into a bed by circling around and jay hooking and smelling from town wind. It just don't feel comfortable going in there for some reason without the wind interface. UM. So it makes it kind of difficult to hunt those betting areas in the morning because you kind of get the kind of come in from a different direction each time. So the trails you see um at the bettering areas they used to dear leading the beds, not going into them because they come in it kind of weird. Um. But when they when they leave those beds, I don't see any relation to the wind whatsoever. What I do see is if the wind is not in their favors to their back, they come out a little more cautiously, a little slower, but they still go the direction they want to go. M So then when you're choosing where to set up, you're not thinking about where will a buck want to go in the evening. You know, you're hunting in the evening, so you're not thinking about where is he gonna want to go based on the wind. You're just thinking about this morning, what was the wind direction that would cause him to move into this betting or? Is that right? Uh? Yeah, that's true to a degree. I mean, like I've said, a lot of swamp that is regardless of the wind. But if it is a wind specific bed, yeah, I'm certainly thinking about, you know, if he's better there in the morning. However, Um, I've seen bucks get up and move when the wind changes during the day, so that can have a buring on it too, So you might want to be set up on where the wind is now or where it's going to be in the evening. Okay, I gotta question for you. You mentioned earlier that you're not hunting mornings this time of time of year. Can you can you elaborate on that a little bit while you're not spending time in the stand in the mornings? Well, Um, as you can imagine, I've been hunting these beds like this for many, many, many years. Um. You know what I've found is when I go into these bed in areas in the morning, um, kicking the bucks out of the bed in areas before daylight, they're already petted. Um. What I see during daylight in the mornings at this time of the year, it's usually immature box or dollars. The mature ones are alreadybetted. Okay, all right now? Is that the same for your marsh and your hill country? Oh? Yeah, yeah, okay. See Now, me, on the other hand, I love hunting mornings and um, but like unlike you, I'm not a I'm not a huge bed hunter, right. I like hunting transitions between food and bedding. In the mornings, and that's where I that's where I had my success this this weekend. Anyway, although I didn't kill, I still had an encounter with a pretty good deer. And you know, we've talked about this a lot, uh Dallas UM, and I think maybe again I prior already mentioned us on previous episodes, but I continue to wonder if this is again because of the differences in pressure between you know, what Dan might be hunting and why I might be hunting in Michigan or Wisconsin versus you know, the properties that you're there on Iowa. UM, I don't know. I just I gotta comment on this. Um. You know, a friend of mine under the Crystal has shotten a lot of a lot of big books. A matter of fact, he's if he put him in the books, he has more blooming Crocketts with the bow than anybody in the world. And I noticed that he's killing a lot of those big books. Um, in the mornings, you love on the mornings. And I was interviewing him for something I was doing, and uh, I said, you know, I gotta ask you, how do you keep killing these books in the morning? And I told them the problem I had that I'm kicking them out of their beds and stuff. And he said to me, he says, Dan, I got the same issue. But look at the dates when I killed those deer, he says. I'm waiting for the moon to be overhead before i go in there, he says. And when I when I haven't moon overhead in the morning, uh, within the first hour of daylight, he says, those books get back to those beds of great light, and I'm able to shoot him in daylight. I'm really glad you brought this up, Dan, So they're coming back to the beds later than they normally would with the moon overhead, yeah or underfoot? Okay, So can you it seems to think that the overhead moon has a little more influenced than the underfoot one. Um, but I'm not so sure. Can you Can you go into this a little more for people that maybe might not be as familiar with underfoot, overhead or all these different moon um time frames. I know you you published something on your website these moon dates that tend to lead to earlier movement in the thing or later movement movement in the morning. Um, could you just explain that in detail for us, because The whole moon thing is something that so many people have questions about and so many people don't really understand. So can you give us your whole kind of one on one on that piece. Okay, you know, I don't understand why they do it, but I have seen plenty of evidence that I know that it goes on and there's more movement when the when the moon is straight up or straight down, there's more movement with buck movement. And when that happens UM in the last couple hours of daylight or the first couple of hours of daylight, you get more buck movement or more dear movement. Overall, it's hard to notice UM on the public lands and hunt but the few times I was over by like Andre's hunting managed land, UM, you can set your watch to what time the food plots would fill up based on the moon shart and it was amazing, UH to just sit back and watch that. UM the way where I got my information for Ms Jeff Murray UM. He passed away a few years ago, but his his UH family still puts out a chart. I think the charts like five or ten bucks. They sew it on UM his website, which we just search Jeff Murray moon guy, he'll find it. Um. I don't believe all his principles about where to hunt and stuff like that. Obviously I'm pushing dead in areas. And he's talking about when daring food sources and stuff based on the moon. My thing is the movement based on the moon overhead or underfoot. And so this chart, what is this what is this chart showing? Is it showing you? Is just telling you the time, the time frames that the moon is overhead and underfoot, the dates and uh, and it gives you he has like a hot thing on her for time frame. But I think you can get that information free to you can just search it online and and there's different charts different people have out there. But but some other people have different ideas on moon charts and the moon position and stuff too. So you can get kind of confused if you start searching it um in other sources and you've you've put some of that on the Hunting Beasts, right if I if I found that because I link to that, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's it's stickied up on the top of the Deer Hunting forum. UM. I put down the dates and times that I feel are the best for for daylight movement. Okay, I also put down based on the moon when the um what cruise time should be. Okay, interesting, and so again based on these charts and the rising and setting of the moon. This is if you see one of these charts or one of these time periods falling within that same time period of first light or last light, those are times when you might get that earlier or later movement. And so that might be a time, even in the middle of October to push into one of these pushing closer to a betting area or one of these hotter spots, because you might just get a couple of extrements of movement, right correct, And and really, I mean if you can get ten extra minutes of movement, they can get a long ways in ten minutes. Yeah, for sure, definitely. So now how about our our second scenario that you mentioned a while back, Dan, which was if you haven't pre scouted an area. Um, let's say there's a guy listening to the show right now and he's thinking to himself, Okay, I'm I'm having horrible success right now. I've been hunting field edges and I'm not seeing any bucks. But I hear Dan is telling me to try to push closer, closer some of these betting areas. For that guy that hasn't done the preseason scouting, all he has is, you know what he knows about property and some maps? How can he go about finding these betting areas? And then you know, making those moves? How are you doing that? And what should he know? This other guy? Okay, you know that's real rain specific, but um, you see it's uh a marsh. You can't tell marsh. That's to me, that's the easiest thing to read, um because you can see it visually, so easy. If you look at the can until marching and you look at the timber edge where it meets the cattails, you know you've got the straight edge of trees meeting cant tails, and somewhere along that line you're gonna see like a finger of trees go out or a point right at that the point the tip of that finger. I guarantee there's gonna be a good book that you see these little islands, like a little brushy points that come off, and guarantee at the tip of that will be a buck bit. And when you look at a swap and you start filling the whole thing with timber. You're gonna see the same stuff. It's just harder to visualize because you can be able to see the different colors and the different types of trees. The hard woods look different than the tamaracks in such right, and it's gonna be the same thing. You're looking at those island tips, You're looking at those those changes in the contour that's straight line along hard transition of thick meats, you know, open. And when you start out in the public land, you've got to start looking for the remoter transitions, UM so that you're not and they're hunting where everybody else is talking because people will follow those transitions to like a trail. So you gotta try to find the remote ones that people don't go to. UM. Now, if you get into hilling screen, then you're looking for points and fingers and stuff like that, and you're the top. So I've got my TAPO and I've found a finger coming off a ridge or maybe if I'm in the marshy area, i found that finger of timber of high ground that pushes into the swamp. Um am, I just am, I just gonna find that spot in the map decide. Okay, I know that there's a cot food source on the other side of this, so there's a decent chance he might be betting out in that finger. I'm going to try to get as close as I can and set up on any random day or maybe on one of those moon days. Or is there anything else that he needs to be thinking of about before moving in to try to hunt that bed he thinks is there. Well, what I do is if I'm pretty sure there's gonna be a bed there, or I think there's gonna be bed I just hunted. If I can get within a hundred yards, I'm sure you can get a chance at that ball in daylight. If there's a spot where I can't get that close to that buck, can't get close enough to that bed, I gotta hang back like two yards. So that's the spot I saved for that moon day or that cold front that comes in it gets to move a little earlier. Um, those are the days I saved for that. Otherwise, UM, I'm hunting those spots one after another, pushing as close as I can. Because you're you don't hunting this way, You're not gonna see bucks every time. They've got different bet Nerrens are all over the place, And what I'm doing is I'm trying each bed nery and once you're sent in the y're just stay out of there for a while. So it makes the other Betton area is better. So you just keep, you know, hopping around and hitting these things, and you're gonna have a few that don't pay off. And in the more of an amateur yard at it, the more you're gonna have something that don't pay off, and you know, and you just gotta keep hitting it until it works. And the hardest part for a guy who doesn't hunt like this is keeping up this confidence level because, like I said, even I, you know, I'll go five six months without seeing a deer, you know, but I guarantee in the long run, I'm seeing more big books than most guys. All right now, we're gonna bounce over to Bernie Barringer. He's the author of The Freelance bow Hunter, written from many different magazines, and he's got some different ideas on October. Can you share this what your progression looks like throughout the month of October, um, and how you're hunting strategy is typically changing as we progress. Yeah, Um, it's It's interesting how so many people really think the the month of October is just a time to just wait, you know, forget it, let's just wait for November. And um, you know, the first week in October can be a really tough time because the um, the bachelor groups are broken up, and um, you know, the patterns. We're having a hard time figuring out where the deer are because, uh, you know, throughout the month of September, these deer a sort of just changing in their food sources and their patterns, and um, you know, you'll be watching on your cameras and you'll see these deer in the fields and the evenings and stuff like that starting late August and right through the middle of September, and all of a sudden they're gone, you know. And then you know, the end of September, first of October, and all of a sudden, you've got a buck on your camera and you go, I haven't seen where did this come from? Well, he came from somebody else. You know, they're wonder where he is. And uh so the first week in October, it's pretty much all about the food. M If you can find um, acorns, hazelnuts, stuff like that, in my area. That's kind of what they're eating on. If there's still some dry some corn in the field, um, you know they're they're still in somewhat of a pattern. It's just that you'll have to find these deer again and you have to move quickly because the patterns are changing. UM. I like hunting October because the first week in October, especially, the weather is nice and usually here we've had a frost, so we don't have much about mosquitoes and stuff like that. But then, um, as the second week of October wears on, then the it's getting colder, so the deer seeking out the high card foods like corn and stuff like that. When the if they're standing corns left that there, that's a real magnet for them. Um. Sometimes they're picking up corn that's been harvested and so forth, and um. So that you know, second week is not a bad time to hunt either. And by the third week in October, now you're starting to see a lot of scrapes and rubs. They are pretty active rather than you know, there's there's you start seeing scrapes and rubs. You know, at the end of August and even as the velvet comes off, but by the third week in October, the bucks are really paying attention to them, and so that's when I start paying attention to them too. And also that's when the effectiveness of calling and rattling is starting to work. UM. And then by the fourth week in October, then you know, calling and rattling is at its peak. That's it's it's the best last week in October, first week in November. I would even give the edge to the last week in October for for calling and rattling. Um. You know, that's the best time of the year. Also to haunt scrapes and rubs because the bucks are visiting them consistently. And UM. You know something another issue with um with scrapes that a lot of people don't think about and um, the you know, it's kind of complicated, but you know, there's been several studies done that bucks, um don't visit scrapes in the daylight. You've probably read the signists. What they do is they put camera at the scrape and they and then they say, well, we got eighty percent of the pictures of mature bucks that we got were at night. And well, one thing that they that they're not noticing about this is the fact that they're only putting a camera right at the scrape. And so bucks are checking scrapes during the day at this time, but they're just not walking right into them because most of your scrapes, if you think about it, they're on a power line cut or a road to track on the edge of the field or something like that. Needs but your bucks don't like to expose themselves to open areas during the daylight. So they'll whenever can they can, they'll stay thirty or forty yards down the wind of the scrape in cover, and they'll just check the scrape without walking right up to it. Now, if there's something good in the scrape, if there's fresh dope, or if you use a good lure or something like that, um you can, you know, you can hunt right over these scrapes and bring these bucks right in. But um so, don't completely discount hunting scrapes during the daylight because there's that last week in October. Fact, Halloween is kind of famous for, you know, for killing bucks over signed. So so at that time period is do you prioritize scrapes so much that during that as we get October. That's that's one of the main areas that you're actually hunting over is specifically in the spot because of a scrape. Yeah, I'm looking for areas that are all torn up and uh I'm you know, by the last week in October. I'm not spending a lot of time worrying about beds and food and stuff like that. You know, I'm looking for a sign that that those bucks, you know, the testosterones rising, they're gonna be checking those scrapes and and uh, Terry, if you find an area that's got six or eight scrapes and a bunch of rubs and stuff like that, it's it's definitely worth spending the afternoon there during that last week in October. So one of the things that I feel like a lot of people do talk about when when we're on this topic of scrapes is that the places that you will see that daytime activity are usually going to be the scrapes some people refer to like primary scrape ariers or something like that, being these places back in the cover. So the scrapes are on the field edge, don't focus on those, try to find these areas of that are all for but the ones that are back secluded somewhat. Is that the way you're looking at things too, or are you even taking advantage of field that scrapes because you still think that they're they're coming down wind of at thirty or forty yards into the cover checking on those field that scrape somewhere. Yeah, if the wind is right that you can get down wind of one of those scrapes that's on a field edge. Um, they're good places hunt, you know, if you can have the wind blowing from you or from the scrape to you and getting a tree up there. The bucks will they'll check them and then they'll make a hook. They'll kind of circle around in a half circle. If if they smell something they like, then they'll kind of circle around and try to quarter into the wind with the you know, kind of the wind on the flat of their face so it's in one nostril basically, and they'll approach the scrapes that way. So to keep that in mind. But I would say if I had to choose between the two, I'd take an area back in the cover more that's closer to the betting area that's all torn up, because you're more likely to encounter them in the daylight. If you're closer to the bedding area. But these these areas where they're all tore up on the edge of the fields, they shouldn't be completely overlooked. Fair enough, have you seen have you seen, you know, for from all your years of being in a tree stand and and just watching deer movement in general, is there a time where, you know, we're talking about hunting scrapes right now, where these dear really start to get up on their feet in daylight, whether that's getting up early or coming to back to bed late. Um, yeah, I would say the last week in October here in the Upper Midwest is when you start seeing that. And then by you know, the first week in November, and then you start seeing more of the chasing more so, you know, and so then the scrapes will work. But there, you know, you can concentrate more on the dough betting areas and where the doughs are feeding in the evening, because the bucks are going to be they're starting dose, are starting to smell pretty good, you know, around the first of November, so those bucks are going to be sniffing them out. Because yeah, if you can answer your question, then last week in October absolutely, Dan where you were you asking about, like time of year or where you were asking where the factors that change it, well, not necessarily factors, I mean in regards to hunting the actual scrapes, right, that's something that I don't do a lot of. So just because I don't for me, I'm not seeing a lot of enough movement during the daylight, you know, I'm not necessarily going right into the bedroom in late October. Maybe if there is a um, maybe if there is a I guess a cold front coming for for an evening hunt, I guess, But I do like hunting u late October, the morning hunt back in the bedroom where the deer might be coming later back to that bedroom or maybe scent checking. So I guess my question was, um, there you know what time of year, whether it's like twenty nine, are are used typically seeing these deer not chasing yet, but getting up on their feet a little earlier, because you know, there's that smell and that there's that smell in the air, like hey, we gotta we gotta start getting ready. And I think, and I think, Bernie, you you would go ahead and sorry, I was gonna say, I think your previous answer then answers that right that last week in October. Yeah, yeah, And I would like to mention the mornings too though that's a UM. I would say the closer you get to November, the better it gets. But as far as the morning goes, when they're primarily on a feeding t betting pattern, then they'll trickle back in UM and it's hard to it's hard to hunt mornings on feeding to betting patterns without bumping deer. For particular, if they're hunting in open fields and you know, they'll start trickling back in well before daylight sometimes and and uh, you know, you might not encounter the deer and you can it's it's hard not to uh spook him or you know, intrude. But the closer you get to November one, the more the bucks stay out a little later. So that's kind of an answer to your question that the effective us of morning hunting UM gets better as you approach the first November. All right, moving on, here is a few bits from Jeff Sturgis. He's the founder of Whitetail Habitat Solutions, the author of a number of great books. He's got the White Tail Habitat Solutions YouTube channel and a lot of interesting ideas, in particular about how he looks at weather during the month of October. And we're gonna drop into a section here where Jeff and I were talking. It was right around October first, somewhere in that ballpark, and I asked him to walk through the upcoming forecast. This is back into some fifteen I think I want him to walk through the upcoming forecast and how that would impact how he hunts. So keep this in mind. He's talking through a hypothetical set of weather factors for the last ten days or so of October and how that would influence the strategy. So here we go, so definitely. So so then here's the next thing I'm curious about, because right I think we hear about this type of thing, pay attention to cold fronts, looking for those changes in wind speed like you, So it seems like you like when it calms down a little bit and the high pressure days. We hear about a lot of these things, but sometimes it's hard to understand how to actually take that and put it into play. So something I've seen you do the last couple of weeks is you're putting out this weekly forecast where you talk about what the weather is going to look like in the coming week or two weeks, and then which of those days coming up are high value sits and what that means for you as a hunter. Could you possibly walk us through, as best as you can remember right now, what that looks like for the coming days here UM is kind of an example, UM, and this and for for context, this podcast will be going live on this Thursday. So maybe if you, if you remember what the forecast looks, can you talk to us about what you're looking at this upcoming weather and how you implement some of the things that we've just talked about. Yes, yeah, and I have that that weather forecast burned in my head pretty well. But and I this time when I pulled up for Lacrosse, Wisconsin, last time I pulled up Chicago, I was actually thinking about flipping over to the Detroit area lands and Grant Arbor next week regardless. So it'll be coming your way anyway. But the big thing with UM this week is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. We had three days in the low seventies to mid seventies at least around here in this area. It really across the same general line moving east and last, there's not that much difference. It's gonna be a lag time a lot of day, I would say, from here in lower Michigan and then another day over to northern Pennsylvania neal orkum. But really, you know, things happening for the most part, the weathers moving west east or west northeast. So that being said, this week we had those three warmer days and then here we have about a ten degree drop on Thursday. And so those three warm days to me, really helped set up on that Thursday drop. And you could say, now if it was four or five days of poor weather or warm weather, Um, if it was a you know, if you had a monster storm moving through on Wednesday, that might make a really big difference. But it's still a pretty quality a high quality day. And especially that's gonna be uh the of October, and that happens to be the days that have shot a couple of really nice box five in secure old box, had a really nice opportunity on another, a nice book, another five fix year old. So we're starting to get into that time where I'm really getting pumped. And I talked to you about that this week to market. You had the box on camp and uh on the cameras and it's it's getting exciting. Um. Then on Friday, what's really cool is UM, so Thursday showing a let's say a low of thirty nine and a high of sixty. Let's say on Wednesday it was the highest seventy one. So there's a leven degree temperature drop. UM. I believe the morning temperature. Now when you look at the weather forecast, and you know, maybe some of the listeners don't realize this, but when you see the low for Thursday, that's actually Friday mornings temperature. And so it's a little deceiving because if you look at Wednesday the low is forty nine, that's actually Thursday morning. So Friday morning has a forecast at low of actually thirty nine, and so tend to gree temperature drop from morning to morning. I'm looking for that from the evening daytime highs to daytime high and in some areas they're actually calling for a little bit of rain or precipitation, maybe some higher winds on wednesdy day to Thursday. UM. Even looking at the Chicago I think that the high quality days of Friday or whether that will help to actually enhance the value that day and going forward, I think the there's a little bit of moisture on that Friday Saturday time, and another little bit of drop on on Sunday. And so I'm looking at like, if I was planning out this week, you know, I really want to make a priority of hunting this Thursday Friday because of the first couple of days after the front, there's good quality temperature, draw a little bit of weather to serve to set that up, and then there's a little bit of a bump where you have some a little bit of a warmer day, um, some inclement weather, rain, and then clearing and high pressure on Sunday. So if I'm planning my sets, I might spend Saturday with family. Um, it looks like Friday night is going to be pretty wet. Not to say that you couldn't shoot a mature buck in the rain, certainly, But if I'm planning my sets and I have four or five, then I really want to get out. I'm gonna I'm actually planning Friday or Thursday morning, Thursday night, Friday morning, and I'll sit on Sunday as well. So and then looking ahead, and this is you know, looking at a week and a half. Um, the there's a really nice drop, and I think it's next Saturday or Sunday where you have pretty steady weather. It looks like next week, and then a major dropper around Halloween. So it's still a little ways out the window of there, probably you know, really high probably uh you know, accuracy rating. But at the same time, I'm really looking forward to that next drop right around Halloween, which is prime time in the northern part of the Midwest. Absolutely, that's going to be a great time to be in the tree now looking though at this most for this most kind of upcoming weekend. So you talked about that cold front hitting today that the air the day that this podcast is going live is Thursday, so that cold fronts hitting Thursday, said, Thursday Friday could be good sits and then maybe against Sunday. Um, this time of year, the twenty six give or take, around this part of the year in October, how are you approaching those hunts at this time to take advantage of this good condition that's good conditions. Where are you hunting? What are you thinking about when choosing those stand sites? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I'm looking at total pre rout hunting. And what I mean by that is really the box to me, are not moved in that far. And I have to excuse me if this is a poor example or a crash example. But um, you know, bi guy, there's thirty girls in a nightclub, bar or whatever, and there's ten guys going in and and that's the time where it's uh, you know, pretty easy to meet a girl. Um. And that's to me unless you're unless you're danaus the same analogy a while ago. That's funny. Yeah, I use that with a client. He said, I don't see anything wrong with that example. But any anyways, Um that uh, it's it's kind of like that for the pre rot. You know, these big boys already have the fall ring ranges to published. They have where they want to eat, where they want to stay there in the day, their betting areas, and they have some doughs nearby. And it's not that they have to have those doughs, just the way it works. They the doughs are right next to the high quality food, good covering. Then those bucks are aren't far behind them, and so they're already established. And when one of those dose starts to get a little a little ruddy. Then uh, it's those bucks they you know, you can pick up on that. There's a lot of dolls will start coming in the heat, and those first few doughs are pretty easy for them to find and they don't really need to move around too much. And so um, at the same time, right before that happens, they're going to become more active. And I know, just in the last three days, I've had a lot of scrapes pop up and then around the properties right hunt and that's not even going in the woods much. That's just just on the exterior edges. So what I'm looking at is for one of those bucks are going to move along ways. So I'm not really I'm not going to sit all day. Um. I just don't think there's a lot of value and sitting there in the middle of the day unless you have to get into an area that you can't get out until after dark. Um. So I'm placing a high priority in the morning near bedding areas. So I'm trying to get within a hundred fifty yards of them sure box betting area, knowing that his range might expand from an acre to ten to fifteen acres during the morning, especially when there's cooler temperatures at the same time in the evening, if I sit in that bedding area, then it's going to be a pretty poor hunt. The closer it gets too dark, because that box is then turning his attention towards the evening food sources of social areas where all the dos and the dope fani the groups are moving in the other box, and he wants to leave that bedding area and go to that food source. So if I'm still in that betting area, then the closer it gets start to last dance. I haven't seen a box. So I find the best to prioritize my sits and increase that value by sitting in a morning area that relates to a betting area and then an evening area that relates to a food source. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm sitting in the bedding area or in the food source, but I'm pretty close. So that's that's more the pre rod. So how are you choosing? You know? Okay, again we're talking about how we're prioritizing, you know, different days. We've prioritized days, But then how do you prioritize a certain betting area or a certain food source, because I'm sure you know you're looking at your farm and you have done something to know. Okay, I think there's betting here, I think there's food here. But then the next question that naturally people are thinking through is Okay, I know I want to be by betting area in the morning, or I know I want to be by good food source. Then they start saying, okay, which one? And so I think we've talked about trail cameras, we talked about scouting, we talked about sightings. What of all those, if any or anything else are you using to then choose the the specific food source you're hunting in the evening? Well, I I do love my trail cameras. And for one that shows me if there's a sure box in the property or not. It showed me when they come on the property, when they don't, showed me if they're coming to in the day or at night. Um, But at the same time, the direction they're coming from, you should give me some clue as to what betting area they're choosing to stay at during the day. And so if I knew that a monster bok was hanging back out in this corner in a betting area, then that would be my priority stand location and where I'd want to go back into the edge of that betting area, walk in the opposite direction from the food. So in the morning, when I'm walking in the dark, I'm not going through the food stars, I'm coming in from the exact opposite way, thinking that that box is somewhere between that food and his betting. He might already be in his betting. But this time of year there's a lot of social activity taking place in the morning. They're making rub scrapes from chasing does, and so I have a lot more of a likelihood of sneaking into the backside of a betting area waiting for a buck to come back to me at this time of the year than I do October tenth, for example, or maybe even October. And so what I'm also doing is there's some pretty good value sit in the evening too, And so I'm looking at if I'm gonna if I'm gonna sit three times, and I'm gonna say, hunt two mornings in one evening. Where can I sit in the morning that I'm not potentially ruining that evening set if I happen to bump a deer and vice for so I'm really thinking about my next two to three sets out and making sure that you're moving from point A to point B and then they're also moving from point feed and point B, and I'm not getting into both those lines or one of those lines and destroying for that evening hunt. I'm saving another line and movement for you know, the next morning, in the next evening. I'm trying to prior to prioritize my sets that way so that I can maintain a high value and a freshening with each set. I also in each area most of my really high quality areas that I love to really focus on, I'll usually have two to three complimentary stands, and so one area can think of particularized I can't wait to hunt this weekend. It will be the first set. It's a triangle of stands um the one I can hunt with sutherly winds in the evening, the other one I can hit with hunt with northerly winds all day, either morning or evening, and the other one has to be southwesterly winds to westerly winds in the morning. And so it gives me a great compliment of stands I can hunt just about any wind condition morning, evening, midday doesn't really matter. If I know there's a big buck up there, which there there always is that I can go into one of those stands and and get a high quality set. But after I sit in there that one time, I'll probably skip over and hunt another set, um, you know, for for the next set or you know, the following morning. So are you ever looking at an area, uh, in particular stand and in setting a morning in an evening or an evening in a morning to try to catch movement coming back and forth if in fact the wind is the same. Yeah, And there's a lot of times where, you know, when when we're out in the whole country, you can cheat the wind a lot, which is different than the flat land. I mean, I live in Michigan forty two years, so it's pretty flat. They're compared to you know out here. But that being said, if you can get away with hunting both those mornings, there's times where, um, let's say the total movement from where I think a buck betting is to where I think he's really generally spending his evening and nighttime hours. Um, let's say it's four hundred yards along that movement or three hundred yards, why might come in the opposite direction, get a good morning hunt, and then leave that same way, and then I'll flip around in the afternoon for a nice three or four hour sit. Actually walk in through the food source and get into my stand location and let my wind blow into a safe way. And so in that way, I'm hunting both ends of the movement. And if I feel that I got in non invasively in the morning, I didn't. I didn't hear any spooks, I didn't hear anything blown at me while I was on the stand, and I thought I got away with a good clean sit. Um. I will certainly try that at times too. Are all your stands pre hung then, or do you do? Do you set up a lot of stands throughout the year? Yeah, most of my stands are pretty hung. Um. Now, when we go down to Ohio and hunt on public land, we have a few that we set a couple of weeks ago. But at the same time we have a lot of trees that we've marked for climbers and so, and I do use climbers occasionally around here. Um. I like actually the comfort of a climber. I like the portability. I do not like the noise I'm walking in with it. Um, you know, I period already takes me fifty minutes to get to some of my stands walking up four hundred feet in elevation, so to put a climber on my back along with the extra way to have on my front, and then it gets me pretty tired out by the time I'm up there. So, UM, I try to have those pre hung stands um cleaned out and ready to go, and then I'll use a climber when I need that flexibility. You mentioned that when you're sitting up for those mornings, since at this time of year you like to be I think you said like a hundred a hundred fifty yards from where you think that betting area is trying to be kind of close into there on the flip side in the evening, are you relating more to I know you mentioned that you're relating more to the food source, but I'm just curious about the relativity of being near to that food. So so are you right on the food or do you like to still usually try to stay pretty far off. I know from some of the stuff I've read it from you, you've talked a lot about the lines of movement and and placing yourself on that, but I'd love to hear a little more about that and um, you know, and if that factors into your distance from food or distance from the prime food, things like that. Well, one of the things I'm kind of looking at absolutes too, and one of those things is that absolute is where is the staging area. So staging area to me is a is a really thick area, brushy area, high stem count, density of regeneration, conifers, grasses, briers, kind of that mix where that last step of safety that a deer we'll go through from its secure bedding, secure travel corridor, gets to that edge in that staging area and when it pops out of there, it's really heading towards food. And so a lot of times because of the stem density and the proximity of food, those areas also become dull family group betting areas. And so what I'm trying to do is um really protect that. So I'm thinking of a spot that I hunted into the evening. It was in two thousand eleven, shot a real nice five six year old buck, beautiful buck on October two, and I was able to position myself. There was betting areas on benches down below the flat that I was on, and then there was a staging area that was probably about seventy to eight yards from where my stand location was. And so if you can kind of imagine, I'm coming into this stand location to my left and approximately within seventy fifty yards there's high quality betting. To my right, about seventy eight yards there's a staging area with highly high likelihood that there was some doll family groups bedding. And then about thirty yards out in the grass from there was the start of one our food plots. That was that food plight. The deer could go in either direction for five and fifty yards one way or four hundred yards in the other. And what I like about not having a big circular food plot at that point is once a deer entered that food source in the evening, it really stretched him out, so more deer and move more deer. Those deer pulled out in the middle of the fields away from the field edge, and uh, and that to me helps more deer cycle through too. So in that case, UM, I actually shot that buck with maybe forty five minutes to go before dark as he was cruising between that staging area and the bedding area, and uh, it was kind of a dead area, almost a secure travel but more of a travel corridor on benches and funnels than than actually coming into its basically coming in between doll bedding and buck betting on a more of an open flat um and the doll betting be in the staging area. Okay, And coming up here is Adam Hayes. He has been on a number of TV shows, including Team two hundred, which has been his latest. Uh. He's killed a whole lot of impressive deer, including uniquely compared to a lot of people, four different bucks over two inches, and he does us in a very targeted, specific, strategic way, which makes his input very interesting. Here's some quick ideas from Adam on hunting October. You talked about the success that you have towards the end of October, partly in that period of time that people call the October lowell um. And from some of the things I've read you, you've certainly killed some of your giant bucks during that time. Firm and I understand that you know what we've been talking about the moon and understanding to be patient and waiting to push in until those conditions are right. I know it's a big part of your your kind of formula for success. But what else are you doing at that time of year. What are the other pieces of that puzzle in late October that are helping you have success because people struggle with that sometimes. Yeah, well it goes back to really seeing the big picture and understanding what's going on that time of the year. You know, if if you're after a specific animal and you want your best opportunity to kill that animal, you need to concentrate on when that animal is going to be the most predictable and the most patternable, and that's early season, before you've got into into the rut when he's chasing all over the place. Late season, they've been pressured for three or four months and they're on edge every little thing they hear and smell and see. Early season is I think it's your best chance to kill a specific animal. And you know a lot of people talk about the October law and how tough it is to hunt. Yeah, it is in a sense. But you know, I learned this from Andre is that those animals are doing the exact same thing pretty much every day. All they're doing is they're betting and they're feeding, and they're going from A to B and they're doing it in a very very small area. They're not traveling very far at all. They're they're very vulnerable because they're so predictable and powerable because they're doing the same thing every day. But they're very tough to kill because they're doing it in a very small area and you're normally only going to get one chance to invade need that little area before games over, and it completely changes his pattern. He goes nocternal, he goes to the next farm over. I don't believe they run out of the county, but they will definitely change their patterns. So you're only going to get one crack at him hurling. So that's when the late season scouting comes into play. That's when you know knowing what these animals are doing, where they're at, you know where they're betting, where they're feeding, how they're getting back and forth or made to be, Knowing where the weak spot that where you need to be to kill him, having things set up, knowing what wins you need to get into that spot to kill him. You know, maybe having some strategically placed trail cameras along that pattern, so you know when that animal is moving during daylight and um, like I said, it's a tough time to hunt, but if you really understand what's going on, it's your best chance to kill him the mature buck, because he's doing the exact scene thing every day. It just makes it very difficulty to get it done on more than one occasion because, like I said, you you walk into the that buck's bedroom in mid October and you don't kill him in the game, is it either got tougher or it's over because he's gonna be somewhere else. He's gonna know you were in there. And it's just that's why it's so tough for guys, like I said, to not hunt a big gear everything's perfect, and then once you get it perfect, you know how to get into that area without disturbing atting animal and you kill him the first time in when he's got the wind in the moon in disavor, get in and get him out. Andrey used to say it was he was surgically removing a big buck from the face of the earth. And that's really rich. How you got to look at it. You're looking at it like a surgeon. Think about the amount of after the surgeon puts them to you know, not only you know, being able to practice medicine, but knowing what he needs to do in that rating room before he goes in there. And it's really it's that black and white. I mean, you got to go in there and surgically remove that animal. Yeah, I love that analogy. That's that's one that I'm gonna I don't start using. I like it. Um So, something you mentioned, and it's something that you know, I've always have believed, I think to degrees during that time of year, typically if you have all these things in your favor, is it safe to say that you are usually trying to get closer to a betting area at that time of year, when you have the right conditions, when you know where the buck is. Most of those huns, those kill sets are probably tight in the bedroom because of like you mentioned, the fact that these bucks are using a really small area. Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I think those deer moving around, you know, in the area why hunt in central Ohio, They're not moving very far between their bed and where they're feeding. A hundred two hundred yards mac, So wherever you're at, you're pretty darn close to where he's betting. Yeah, can you have my best I've had my best luck on those on those sets in evening hunts, I very very rarely ever try a morning hut early season on those animals. But if I'm going to, if I've tried it once or twice in the evening and haven't got it done, and I know right where that animal is betting, and then maybe I have a stand already hung in that bedding area, I will not go into that bedding area on an early season hunt until I have that red moon time one to three hours after daylight. I've witnessed it on a handful of occasions, seen a big, you know, two class animal coming back to bed late on those overhead times late in the morning, and that lives were the only times that animal came back late. So so they're stay, they're feeding a little later because the moon is telling them to not go back to bed yet. Yeah, instead of know that that that moontime hitting in the middle of the night and they fed and they're laying down and starts cracking daylight and they're heading back and get into their bed before shooting light. They're actually feeding closer to daylight, and you have a better chance to than seeding, you know, in the daylight and coming back just a little bit late. So how how much of a buffer are you giving yourself when you go into those tree stands as far as time is concerned, are you going in two hours early? One hour early? You're talking about mornings or evings or both mornings, Well, mornings, I'd like to get in super early because I want everything to have a chance to calm down. And I'm I mean, if I go into trying to dive into a bedding area in the morning, I'm taking my time. I mean, I don't want to break a twig. I don't want to bang my bow up against the stand. I mean, I don't want to do anything. I'm I'm doing everything in slow motion because you just can't make any mistakes in a betting area in the morning. So I give myself twice as much time as I think I need to get into my spot undetected, you know, literally tiptoing into a spot, and you know, given myself an hour before daylight for everything to maybe calm down a little bit and just to make sure that that animal is nowhere close to the begging area if if it's at all possible when I get in there. And to wrap us up, we've got a couple of excerpts from my very first conversation on the Wired Hunt podcast with Mark Jury. If you've listened to any of our other more recent episodes of them, you know he's a wealth of information. Here. He's going to talk through some thoughts on morning hunts in October, on the October lull, on some weather factors related to October, and then some of his high level thoughts on different phases of this month. So here we go. Now, I want to go off on a brief tangent here um because Dan and I, over the past weeks and really the last year or two we've been doing this, we have an ongoing debate about morning hunts, and we asked this to our guest last week and now you just briefly mentioned this and it made me think about So I want to get your opinion real fast, um, hunting mornings in October in general, is that something you would be for or against. I will hunt every first morning at the front and none of the others until the latter part of October. Then I will hunt every morning until about Thanksgiving. Okay, and can you so, can you explain to us why you don't hunt all those other mornings in October. I lack of movement and spoken deer getting into their bedroom. They're not moving very far for the most part. It's an afternoon game. I mean, their afternoon is it's like our morning. You know that they've been bed at all day. That's when they get up and by early morning they're going back to bed. The first morning the front is awesome. Regardless of what the date is in October, it is amazing that first north early morning. I don't care if it's October two or fifty threat in the middle of the well, that morning will be phenomenal. Guarantee. Yeah, that's good. That's good to know. I think it continues to evolve me and Dan's thoughts and opinions on this too, hearing the different perspectives, and that makes a lot of sense. Waiting for the fronts. I tend to do that a lot when it comes to even the evening hunts, and it makes sense that those morning hunts could really still be great even early on with that right man, that firs morning is awesome. It's just awesome, and they're they're in a good mood, they're moving around, and that what happens to to stay on the feed later, right, so they're late coming back to bed. And now this is provided you're in the right spot. You know, you can go goople any hunt up by hunting the wrong place at the wrong time. It's all about trying to get the right place at the right time. But generally they're on the food later and then they're going to be later coming back to bed, So therefore you're going to see daylight activity, whereas most mornings without that front, they're at bed are already betted by the time and stay break. That's my experience. And in October, yeah, so on on that particular instance, are you gonna be hunting near the betting area where they're coming back, or are you gonna be hunting some kind of transition or pinch point to catch them coming back to their bed. It depends on the mask cop that year. If there's a mash crop, I'm gonna be somewhere on an on an oak plat, or somewhere where there's acorns, because they're phenomenal throughout October on the coal propts that if there's not much of a mash crop, I'm probably going to be not far off of a food plot in a known betting area because they're just not moving very far off where their their primary food sources. What about specifically a morning hunt, That's what I was talking about. Okay, I got you. That's that's exactly what in the morning, that's where I go in October for those types of hunts, how early are you gonna be getting into your stands in the morning? Did I lose you? He? Can you hear? Mark? Oh? There you are? Okay, yep. It was just curious for those morning hunts in October, how earlier you trying to get into your stand in the morning? Fairly early, it's a thirty minutes before the first thought of like I that's they're just not far and not moving very far, So you better use the cover of darkness. And if you're, if you're, you get away with so much more during the cover of darkness than you do even at the first hint of light. It's so much easier to blow deer out at the first sin of light then when it's black dark. Did you ever notice that, like if you go in your stand, it's black dark, one might bounce thirty or forty yards, but yet when it gets light, you still see that deer, whereas if you're climbing up and there's a little light, you're gonna blow and plumb out of the country. I love black dark during October. Yeah, definitely much safer approach that way. That's for sure, much safer, and it's more important then than during the rut. Now, I got a question for you. You just brought it up, um in one of your last comments about the October law. All right, So what we've talked about so far, you know, the barometric pack pressure, the consistent winds, that the first change in a wind direction, the cooler temperatures. Am I to assume that your definition of the October law is the opposite of all those? Well, October law. It's also what I call the October swell. There's a defined period or a defined phase in the middle part of October where they come out of their feeding pattern that they're into heavily from you know, from the time they dropped the velvet until about October the chance through the fourteenth that varies year to year. When they go into the law, But from then untill about October, there is a definitely subdued movement period there in October. Unless it's a major could front. You have to have cold to have a decent day, in my opinion. So in those situations where you do get you know, I'm gonna continue to drill on these examples. Let's say now we're in that dreaded quote unquote October law. You do get that front. Is that just a situation where you're going to move into one of your Is that would you move into one of your better stands at that point, or even though you have a front, you're still gonna wait till a better time period, maybe later in the year. No, I'll go into it, and you have to recognize what's happening during this well I said, they go into it looking one way and they come out looking another way. I mean, that is the build up, that's the testosterone going from ground zero up to where it peaks to where all the daylight activity happens there during seeking phase of the pre route there in late October. That that period when you do get a cold front, that's when you look back historically at your pictures and you go where was I getting daylight activity or where was it getting a certain Bucks picture a lot during this date range. Chances are it's in and around the scrape. We always transition all of our cameras off of travel or food during the greater pasture sphase. When we go into the October law, that's the time we transition every camera we have the scrapes because scrapes are gonna absolutely light up during that phase and you you can go middle part of color. In fact, it is the best time to hunt scrapes is during the law, but you need a cold front to actually get one on Steet movie. And the one thing that we've kind of talked about interspersed throughout all these different factors is the time of the year. And you mentioned your show thirteen and the fact that you guys broke down the year into thirteen different phases. Could you, you know, briefly walk us through what those phases are. We touched on a few of them, but could you walk us through what those phases are that you guys believe are you know, distinct, and maybe give us a quick like you're one main thing to note about each one of those phases. It's that possible you know I can't do it off the top. I give you my favorite hold on down there, let me get through this. The moment the first days is September the fifteenth, and let's just coincide with when the Missouri season helping September st. And that's the phase we call the new Beginning. Uh. It's if you're on one, there's a good chance you're gonna kill him if you get a weather front. It's all about food source that time, and it's all about trail pictures and your summer observation, etcetera, etcetera. I love that phase. I also love the phase that follows it, which is greener Pastor September through October the twelve. To me, greener Pastors is one of the best phases to kill him the tur buck because there's a defoliation that goes on during this phase throughout the Midwest. And I'm only talking in terms of the hunting that I've observed here in Missouri, Iowa, Illinois, and Kansas. Well, those beans that we're planted back in May and Junior eventually turned from green to brown and defoliate. There is a major switch within the herd to go to the next green food source. And if you've got that green food source close to where you've seen the tur buck all summer, you're gonna go through what I call greenw green transfer. There's a good chance he's going to transfer from that green bean field and you're green plot. The difference is the b field might have been forty acres and your green field might be one to three acres, a much smaller target area to try and kill that dear. That phase, to me is one of the best of the whole year. Um October three, we'll talk about the October Law trus days overall, and you gotta have a cold front and mornings can be quite good. We key in on scrapes with our cameras and with our hunting tactics. We're gonna key in on scrapes in around that October Law with gilt and get here during that period because they're still on food source and they're not moving very fart. But you gotta have a weather front in order to do pre luck. October November the first. To me, this phase is all about killing the oldest, biggest gear in the herd if you can find him, especially with those historical pictures like we were talking about you can get on and kill that particular dear. This sphase, why because it's one of the few phases where that really old hear is actually on his feet. He's looking for the first available dough to give the first hint of asterisk. And I don't know that they're really ready to breathe yet during this space, but he's certainly ready to start tending her seven to ten days before he breathes her. But she said that one thing that old was sucking her is going to be the first one to find the one that's felling the vest I love that face where really mature deer. All right. So there you have it. H a lot to take in there, I realize in in a little bit all over the place. But I think that if you take a little bit from each of these different people, you can come into this next month with a lot of different little tricks up your sleeve, I think, and some things to think about the next time you're thinking about should I hunt this day or not? Or should I hunt this tree stand or not? Or should I worry about the October law or not. I'm hoping that this podcast is going to give you a starting point and point you in the right direction. As I mentioned at the top, these were just little bits from much larger conversations, so go back and listen to these. Gordon Whittington was episode number one, Dan Infalt was episode number twenty seven, Bernie Barringer was episode number one. See Jeff Sturgis was number seventy seven, Adam Hayes was number sixty nine, and Mark Jury was number sixty three. Check those out. Each one is jam packed with a lot more information than we just heard here. So that's gonna do it. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. Hopefully this provided you something helpful to kick off the month of October. It's a roller coaster, guys, and we are just beginning to head up that first hill, and I'm pumped. This is the best time of year. Enjoy it, soak it in, hunt as much as you possibly can, um because you know, don't don't neglect important obligations and responsibilities, of course, but I can tell you from experience that I look forward to this all year and then the month goes by so fast, just a blank and it's gone. So for whatever kind of time the energy you can put into, at least enjoy soak it in and uh just realize and remember these are special, special times, the best of luck, shoot straight, have fun, be safe, and stay wired to hunt.

Save this episode