00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host Mark Kenyan in this episode number three sixty one, and today I'm joined by John Altman to discuss his unique methods for targeting mature bucks from the Big Woods of Maine to the coastal islands of the Atlantic Ocean. Al Right, welcome to the Wired Time podcast, brought to you by Onyx. I'm joined today by John Altman for a really cool chat. I think at least. John is a die hard deer hunter from the East coast of Maine who has been chasing mature bucks across the Northeast for decades now, and he's doing in some really unique and interesting ways. You might be aware of what I'm talking about if you've watched the new show over on Real Tree called Sea Bucks. Well, in short, what he's doing, he's chasing big deer in the big woods, and he's boating and kayaking to islands and find giant bucks out in those spots too, and he's getting great deer and all these different unique tough scenarios. So whether you hunt in the Northeast or not, his ideas I think can be applicable. You know, when you're listening, think about how you can take little bits of his tactics and apply them to your own scenario, whether that's in the Upper Great Lakes or the Deep South. His water access tips are really interesting. His ideas for hunting big timber could be applicable in a lot of scenarios. It just might be the trick you need to take your hunting to the next level. So this is a fun one. We dive into some really really interesting scenarios. I'm excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, I want you to get right into it. So thank you for listening and enjoy all right with me. Now on the line is John Altman. John, wel them to the podcast. Thanks for being here. Thanks, it's great to talk to you. I'm excited for this one. I every year I tell myself I need to do a better job of talking to folks up in the Northeast. There's so many listeners up there, and I just inevitably fail. That is an annual failure on my part. So so John, I'm putting the pressure on here because you were trying to help me achieve one of my yearly goals. Can you do that? Yeah, I can, I can help. I'll try to represent as best as I can for the Northies. Uh. So that said, then, John, can you just give me a little background as to who you are and you're hunting experiences leading up to this point and uh, and what kind of brings you here today? Sure? Sure, So I've been in Maine for about twenty five years. UM. I came really is a building contractor. That's what brought me to the area. UM, and the building market was quite strong. So I'm on the coast of main Um. Pretty much when you come into a when you crossed the border down in New Hampshire, you sort of parallel the coast and you just start to go east. You don't really go north anymore. And so we're we're on that kind of end of that uh direction of going east on the coast. And um, that's sort of what brought me to the area. I found myself uh in my way into deer hunting kind of late in the game. I didn't really start to deer hunt until my early twenties. UM. I shot my first year when I was about twenty two years old and I was all by myself. I didn't really have anybody to sort of mentor um. And it's sorta been that way all the way through. You know. I just sort of had the opportunity, um to just sort of venture out, and UM it's been sort of that's kind of been my road so um. So, So we we like to hunt big deer, you know, big mature white tails. UM. I think hunting is one of those things that you know, is um in the eye of the beholder, you know, I like to I like to chase big deer, but UM, I think it's great just to be out there. And some people need to just go out and shoot a deer and put it in the freezer. And and I certainly understand that too. UM. But our passion uh is really big mature white tail UM. To us. That's you know, at the year that's five years or older. You know, that's really when we feel that years is mature. UM. They're hard to find, but they're out there, and we spend a lot of time looking for them, um and then keeping an eye on them. We sort of follow them along. You know. We get pretty excited when we find you know, three year olds, and and then we can stay on him until four and then we're pretty confident they're settled down enough, they're gonna be there, and and um, we keep an eye on them for a while and and uh, sometimes we get an opportunity at them. You know, so much of so much of the white tail hunting media out there, this podcast included, uh kind of comes out of the Midwest or of some part of the agricultural world that part of the country. So a lot of the tactics and strategies and the dear behavior you hear about is is kind of centered around that stuff. We I'm curious from you is is how much of that stuff is applicable to what you do or how your dear behave or do you feel like you're you're operating on a totally different playbook because the deer and the habitat and the strategies needed are so different up in the Northeast. Yeah, Um, I think it's really it's very very different. Um. A lot of it just starts with the way the land is managed, you know, I mean, we're heavily heavily would it, so we don't have a lot of hag UM. So it's very easy for these deer to hide and and mature. UM. But that being said, it's also very difficult to find them. UM. So our hunting strategies I think are quite a bit different from the Midwest. UM. We can hunt um pretty much. The law in Maine is that if it's not posted, you can hunt it. And so that's very different than than most of the rest of the country, where you know, you have leases and privately and and stuff that you just can't access. So so we can hunt in a lot of different places, and I think that is one of the reasons, UM, we've had such great success because we can move around very easily. If if one piece isn't working or or we don't have a mature deer on that piece of ground at any given time, you know, we can just move. And you know, we have a lot of ground that we cover UM. So you know we have that working for us. UM. But you know, I don't have a field that I don't have a seventy five acre bean field that I can blast, you know, preseason or even during the season and and start to figure out patterns of of mature deer and where they're coming out. UM. That just doesn't exist. Um, we have you know, ten acre fields, a pretty big field on the coast. We can have some eg but it's a little more inland. And uh, and then when you go up north, you know there's quite a bit of blueberry ground up there and potato fields, broccoli fields, things like that. Um, but the deer, the deer don't behave the same here. You know. They they have an extremely wide variety of um forage that they you know, they browse, they they eat so many different things. And I'm sure they do in the Midwest too, but but in Maine, it's it's just amazing how they can survive. Um, you know, in these mature um stands of fur and spruce and uh, you know, eating mushrooms and browsing on things. And I mean the amount of food, the amount of different variety of food that they consume in one day, I think, is it's just it's just mind bottling. Yeah, it seems like given that, you know, there's so many different food sources, there's so much timber that deer could be bettered. I'd imagine in so many different locations. It's got to be really hard just to find them, to find where you need to start. How do you start that process? For you guys? How do you find that beginning point where those deer are? Yeah? So, so we really, you know, to hunt these big mature deer. I mean we really we use cameras a lot. Um. I wish I could I could sort of deny that, but I can't. You know, we we use um these yeah, I mean, you know, I'm kind of of the old school, right. I really don't like the technology. I don't like it when that, you know, comes into play, especially when your harvest a big mature deer. But I don't really know how else to do it in the Northeast, you know, if you're really looking for those mature, mature white tail, Um, you can't. You can't just expect that you're just going to go out and sit in the woods and find one. I mean you might. I I kind of believe that everybody gets um, you know, a lucky buck in their hunting career, you know, or they might get a lucky buck um one that they just happened happened to you know, sort of get on. I mean that how happened to me once? And um, you know, I was both hunting and I was hunting in a new area, and UM, I really didn't know what was in there. I just had seen really good sign and I pushed up in there and and I shot a beautiful, you know, mature, um white tail, and and that was my lucky buck. You know, I didn't really know, I didn't even know he was there. But is that going to happen again? Probably not, you know, I I doubt it. Um. So we so we we find them, um, and then you know, we just collect, we continue to collect information, We take notes, We actually keep log books. UM. Now with the pictures, it's it's really easy to organize, you know, all of that information so that we can see you know, when particular thero in certain areas at different times of the year, and UM we can. We've I've made a lot of conclusions, um about deer and deer behavior based on all of that logged information, especially when you when you chase these deer for multiple years. UM. You know we've had some dyear. Well, well bigfoot that we shot last season, you know, we had been chasing that deer for six years. UM, so we had a lot of intel on him. UM. We had studied him for quite a while. So Um, that's how we that's really the key to how we kind of zero in on where the deer are at at a given time and and sort of the most valuable piece of information for us is is where that deer lives. You know, where what is his home? You know, where's his bedroom. And once we get that figured out, um, we can then you know, sort of develop a haunting strategy. Um. So, so that's that's the that's really the critical piece that we're looking for is really where his bedroom is. And sometimes we pinned that down by just finding out where he isn't you know. It's like we'll put cameras out and that information is valuable to us as as where he is, you know, because then then we can we can cross areas out and say, well, you know, early part of September, he's just not he's not in this zone at all. And and then you know, we don't have to worry about that piece, you know, and the dear behavior gets pretty solidified, especially when they get at that old you know, they really start to to um sort of become creatures of habit um, and we see them repeat themselves year after year sometimes you know too within the week is not even to the day. And and it's really bizarre when you start seeing that and kind of map out It's crazy. Now, what about where you specifically put these cameras when you're trying to get that intel, whether it's just to to figure out if there's a good deer in this general area, or when you're trying to find the bedroom of a specific buck. It seems so different than what I'm doing here in the Midwest, where I can you know, you set cameras on a scrape, on a field edge, or you know there's an obvious pinch point between two fields. There's much more clear cut sign and evidence of okay, this is a good spout to put a camera, or some states you can put out bait or a mineral or something. How do you get your cameras set and how do you put them in spots that they're actually going to get pictures in the intel you need. Yeah, well, we can't do any of that baiting. Um Well, I mean, you can feed deer after a certain time in the year after the hunting season closes and stuff like that. Um, but we can't really do that when we're trying to collect, you know, information that's going to be kind of critical for hunting. Um. So it's we do the same thing. I mean, we have scrapes, you know, scrape lines that will put cameras on. Um. We have a lot of natural food source that we feel like that deer are going to go to first, like, for instance, apples. You know, we have a lot of wild apple trees, and that to us is a real go to. Um. You know deer well, um, you know, every apple, every wild apple taste different and the deer know it, you know, and so and so do we. I mean, we pick him up all the time and we're like, apple is no good, this one's really good. Well, pretty much parallels for the deer. You know, if you like it, they like it. And um. So so that's one of the places we get a lot of our early season information because those apples start falling and then you know it is that deer under that apple tree at two o'clock in the morning, there's the under that apple tree, you know, in the last hour daylight, and then that's going to give you you know, from that you can make conclusions on well, how far away was it when he got up? And so you know, we started rowing it down like that UM. And I'm not gonna say that we know just exactly where that deer is betted. But you know, we like to think that we can get, you know, basically within a few hundred yards of where that deer is um. And I think sometimes we're even a lot closer than that. UM. But but if you can, you know, if you can't get that close, then you've got you know, you've got a pretty good chance when he gets on his feet, if you still got an hour daylight, uh, Um, you know you're gonna you're gonna increase the chances of you know, intercepting that deer. UM. So I don't particularly like to have cameras in spots where we are going to hunt. Um. But that being said, I mean the reason I can say that is because a lot of these deer, we we study for multiple years. So UM, I can eventually, you know, make that conclusion that this is where I'm probably gonna hunt it, this is where we're gonna have our best chance of intercepting. And so let's not put a camera in there now. But but the year before I might have had a camera there, or even during even the year before that. So UM, I feel like the deer are a lot more sensitive to cameras than any of us really believe. And we've started putting cameras up really high. We we oftentimes will climb trees, you know, we'll take sticks in with us and you know, get ten feet up in a tree and name the camera almost you know, not straight down, but on an angle. We we collect less information that way, but I feel like getting it, you know, out of sight is a really good idea. UM. So we you know, Bigfoot, the steer that we just killed last season, UM, I really believe that. UM. We killed him because of the decision we made not to put cameras in where we were going to hunt him. UM. We had done that every year prior. And I think just that foot traffic of going in and checking those cameras, UM was enough to just give him the edge and push him, you know, a few hours back. UM, and he was you know, his activity was he was still coming into that area. He would tolerated a little bit, but it was always you know, nocturnal movement. So UM, you know, I I think you can overdo it with cameras really easily. UM. But But on the other hand, I don't think we can do what we do without him, you know. So it's one of those double edged sword. It's a fine line. So so this buck bigfoot, um I saw. I watched the hunt for this buck on on this new show that you're part of called Sea Bucks, and it's a wild situation because I think this is absolutely has to be pointed out. This big buck that you were hunting. You killed him on an island in the ocean, right, I mean off the coast of Maine. You were taking a boat into across the water to an island. How does everything you just described with your trail cameras in that kind of scouting is that is that applies directly to the island hunting just as much as the mainland big woods hunting. Orde to do things different on the islands, um No, I think you know, our strategy is kind of the same in terms of trying to zero in on that core area for the deer, the home base. But but you know, the island just it's that island hunting thing just brings a whole mother set of challenges, you know, just from everything from the water crossings to being out there to matv gaistion. You know, in the dark you know, overnight weather, all that stuff. Um. But these islands that we're hunting, you know, most of them are um you know, it takes about half an hour to an hour and a half to run in a small skiff out to them. UM. So you know, we we as much as we like to hunt out there, there's just a whole lot of time that we can't even get out there because of the weather. UM. So we have a we have a you know, we always have a backup land. We know when we want to go, but oftentimes we can't get out there then, um and we get pushed off or sometimes we get stuck out there too um longer than we to anticipate it. So it just it brings a whole another level of of sort of challenges to it, which we really like, you know, we're into that sort of expedition style hunting. Um. But but really, I mean, I think that the information we're collecting is the same whether we're on an island or whether we're in a you know, what we might consider like a fifteen hundred acre block of woods that were that we're working on, and you know, so it's it's it's the same same concept. Can you can you walk me through that process with Bigfoot, because it sounds like it was many, many years long of trying to figure out this buck. And I'm curious in particular about the unique aspects given that it was an island. I gotta imagine access is really unique. How your wind is manipulated by the island or just by the fact that you blow your wind out of the water. I don't know. I'm just I'm very intrigued by that whole thing. UM. Could you walk us through from the from the beginning of how you have found this island, that buck everything? Yeah? Yeah, Well, so we had a lot of different islands, you know, we don't just it's not just one. UM. Maine has this very unique coastal island opportunity that UM starts in September and it's I think it's been about nineteen years now that they've had coastal island hunting and it started because they needed that the there to be managed out on the islands. You know, people aren't really going out to them, and the deer populations were such that they wanted, you know, more deer to be taken off the islands. So they gave us additional tags UM, which really is as a hunter, particularly as a bow hunter, was a real bonus because Maine is pretty is pretty much always been a one tag state. So you you you're geting, you're given one tag, and you know, if you're an upcoming bow hunter and you need to get that experience, it's kind of hard because you get you know, if you're lucky, you get to shoot one deer and you're done. Um and we all know how much sort of unfold after you take that shot. I mean that's that's sort of you know, half the hunt right there, if not more than half the hunt. And um So so this island opportunity was huge for us, you know, and we started going out there year one out two different islands, um and we would you know, we would harvest does. You could harvest multiple does. You could shoot a second bock, um a second to your mainland tag. Um. So it was a really great opportunity for us to develop, you know, hunting skills. Um. So that's kind of how we got into it. And then you know, it just evolved to the point where I think deer numbers started to come into check and um, we we're less you know, excited about shooting does and we sort of were more excited about, you know, zeroing in on bigger, mature white tails, and um, we found that you know, if you let these deer walk you know, if you have a two year old or a three year old, you know, you really are opening the door to something much bigger, um unfolding for you. And and um, that was you know, that was just kind of part of that whole learning curve for us, you know, I mean we we were very much like a lot of people, whereas that first book that walked in, you know, and if you had to a shot, you took it, you know, and I think for a lot of folks that's that's main you know, that is the hunting opportunity in Maine. And I don't have you know, I don't have any problem with that. I completely understand that. But but we we we a long time ago we decided to just sort of let those deer walk by and and and then sort of see what was going to happen. And we realized, wow, there's we we really have some giants, you know, we have some old deer. Um. So that's that's where it all started, you know, That's how this whole island thing started. For us and then um, you know, we've just taken it to the point where, um, we have access to different islands. Again. UM, some of the islands are are privately owned, UM, some of them are UM owned by the states, some of them have conservation easements. So there's sort of a different package of goods that come with every every island. And so we spend a lot of time um, sort of analyzing that and trying to figure out, you know, where we can and where we can't hunt, and if we can't hunt, what we can and can't do um. And so so then we we sort of take that to access in terms of how far away the island is, what's involved, what kind of piece of water we have to cross. We use these small eighteen foot lund Alaskan boats, um, which are which are quite seaworthy, but it doesn't take much to to put yourself in a compromised position, you know. UM. So so we are you know, we're constantly kind of dictated by sees, winds, direction, storms, things like that. UM. So so with that in mind, you know, having a lot of different opportunities, a lot of different islands that you can go to is really helpful because you can UM, you can kind of based off the weather, you can adjust your plans. UM. You know, some of them are are further than others. UM. And then we often get out there and we camp um for you know, a week at a time. UM. And then we we usually access our tree stands via kayaks, so when we're going out, we're we also have these sit on top kayaks until UM and we found that UM, those really have increased our our chances are our odds in terms of getting close to deer, just because we don't have to use an aluminum boat. UM. Throwing an anchor in, you know, even even when you're being just as quiet as you possibly can your hundred yards offshore, you throw that anchor in, or you came in with your your outboard. UM, it just it just sets the deer off. So uh, four or five years ago we started UM sort of camping in one spot, and then we'll paddle a mile or two sometimes sort of sometimes we'll so can navigate the island if we have to paddle all the way around the other side, so that we can come and really quietly with these kayaks. UM. We have a you know, we have a twelve foot tied here in Maine, so there's a lot of water moving in and out. It's a very rocky shoreline. So UM, these kayaks are nice because you can come in at low tide and you can pick them right up and and walk them up to the high tie line and tie into a tree and you can actually you know, so we use ocean kayak. That's what we have been really you know, happy with um. They make a lot of different sizes and um. The other thing I really like about those boats is their their field hulls. So um it's kind of like a big floating you know, barge if you will. And UM, it's just a piece of mind knowing that you have a couple of those in tow or even in your boat with you when you're in some compromised, um conditions that you know, the waters water is pretty cold. You can't you can't survive in the main water for very long, even in September. Um. So knowing that you have something that's not thinkable, um is a peace of mind, you know. UM. So then you know, we we we we sort of take advantage of being on the island for that block of time, you know, week at a time, and UM, we don't we don't push it. The wind is is really complicated, um, because you know, it gets affected by the rising in the setting of the sun and then just what happens on the water, the direction of the swell. You know. Sometimes we'll think the wind is perfect, we'll go to access our standing, will will round a point on the island, and we'll start to go into our standard. It's exactly the opposite of what we thought it was, you know, and that's just something that you have to have to deal with. UM. That particular hunt on big Foot, Uh, we we had to give up quite a bit for that hunt. That was a sit that, UM, we knew the chances were really good based on the information we'd collected on that dear over the years, that he would he would still be right in that zone. UM. But I remember walking in and UM feeling like we were giving up probably of what we were trying to hunt. UM. But it was it was one of those decisions that we made because I felt pretty confident about the rest of what we had, you know, UM, and I think I think that's you know, that's it. That's very different than hunting the mainland, you know, like you know, when you're on an island you kind of you have you don't have a whole lot of places you can go. Um, so you definitely have to be flexible. You have to be willing to give up a little more, um in terms of win direction and stuff like that. Can you can you describe this area, like where was this area that you zeroed in on him? What was the kind of stuff he was living in? Where did you learn over those previous years, Because didn't you have three or four or five years of history with pictures and stuff leading up to this particular hunt. Yes, we did. We had five years for the pictures with him, so um yeah, so um. I you know it was he was He came into what what I would call sort of an old apple orchard, uh, sort of homestead area. There was an old stone foundation. You know, you wouldn't really see it unless you really spend a lot of time there, but but there was an old stone foundation there, and um, so you know he it was. It was an edge basically, he was not far from what we would consider to be an edge here in the northeast. You know, it was it was a sort of transition from mature pine spruce um forest with some elevation that then broke out into sort of a fern area and then um got into some growth that you would see kind of uh might have grown up in an old field, you know, which is very different than that pine spruce you know stand and um. You know, as we all know, a lot of you know, dear love the edge, right, and so they're always kind of they're always kind of on that edge. And UM, so he came, you know, he was probably bettered in the in the shade on a knole. Uh when we set up on him. I think he was probably a hundred and fifty yards away from us at most. Um. And UM, you know, I think it was it was so early. It was like four thirty in the afternoon, you know, it was. I mean we've been in the tree for you know, maybe settled down for half an hour. And UM I saw bigfoot pick his head up, and and I and and the thing that's so incredible about that is we have never seen this year. You know, we have pictures of them, but we have never seen him with our eyes. UM. So when he picked his head up, I I just you know, basically I like weed one, you know, because just because I saw him, you know that was like, what whether I was going to get a chance to shoot him or not. I mean he was like seventy yards away, and I got well, you know, I don't know if it's gonna if it's gonna go our way or not. But but we got to see him. You know, that was a huge victory. Um. And so but then it was like, you know, it was like everything we knew was was correct about him. I mean he did just exactly. It was like he was on the hooking line, you know. I mean he just came right down what we expected him to do. He just he was going right to a particular apple treat which are are our information said that that was a tree that was his preference, That was the apple that he liked the most. That was always the apple that fell first. You know, I mean those little things like that. You know, if you study an area long enough, you figure that stuff out. You know. It's like we knew that that tree didn't produce a lot of apples. They were sweet, they would fall early, um and that and that, you know, oftentimes we would get pictures of him and um, we happened to run a couple of cameras in this area and so um years prior, and so you know we would be we could make those conclusions. He came there, he ate that apple first half an hour later, maybe he was over on another one. UM, but that's where we were set up, and he just came right in and he just, you know, he just did exactly what we thought he was going to do. UM. I was afraid to stop him. I mean, anybody that watches that footage can show and there's probably after wonder why did they stop him? And I just I was afraid, you know, I was afraid to just introduce anything other than what was absolutely natural for him. And um, and I just thought he was gonna bolt. So so when I shot him, you know, he got a half a step on me. You know, he was walking through the trees and there was he can't really tell from the footage, but there was quite a few young poplar trees that were in there, and you know those are definitely working on me when I made that shot. And um, but he got a he got a half a step on me. And you know my arrow was six inches further back than I wanted it to be. And I knew it, you know, immediately, I knew exactly what had happened, but I knew I also knew he was that he was dead deer, you know, so it's just going to be a hard recovery. Would you look that that dear really taught us a lot? Yeah? Would you do anything different looking back on it? Specifically on the shot? I know you recovered him, but it was a tough recovery. Um, did you do what you had to do? Or would did you learn something from that you would change next time around? Um? Well, I mean, I I don't think I've ever been on a track that I haven't learned, you know, something or a lot of things. Um, but UM no, I don't. I you know that's that it was what it was? I I, um, you know, in hindsight, could I have waited, you know, he was going to pick up an apple? I couldn't maybe waited for him to get to that apple and shot him. But I might have had a tree in the way too, you know. I mean I usually make those decisions on instinct, and my instincts told me that it was time to shoot him. Uh. I knew Josh I had the camera on him. I knew, I knew everything was good on that end. Josh and I have spent so much time in the woods, and um, I just knew he would, you know, he was gonna let me know if there was a problem, and and uh so I knew Josh was good. Um I don't think it shows in the footage, but when the deer came in, I had a really good shot at him, but Josh didn't have the camera on him, you know, or he had the camera on him, but there was a tree in the way, and so he told me not to shoot. So I kind of I did have an opportunity prior, um just to shoot him pretty much broadside. Um. So you know, I mean that that's that's hunting, you know, and you have to go with your instinct. Um that liver HiT's always a hard one. I think that you have to know, you have to know, um you know what to do about it. I think it's a it's a deer that is very recoverable. It's just you just need to know, you know how to go about those those steps. And I've seen liver shot dear, you know, survived for a long time. So, um so we knew, you know, we knew we had to get out. And I was surprised that he was still alive when we got to him. But it didn't it. I've seen it happen before. You know, Um, I don't think he had much life left it What have you gotten up? I think he would have gotten up and he would have ran if I hadn't shot him again. But um, I don't think he would have gotten far, you know, I mean it would have been it would have been a pretty easy track to follow. Um. But I'm glad it unfolded the way it did and I got that second arrow in him, and and um, even you know he's a warrior. Even after that, he uh, you know, he still had his head up when we gave him a half an hour after I shot him right through the lungs. You know, he he laid on the ground. He's still alive half an hour later after you know, sixteen hour liver hit. You know, he didn't bleed at all from from the second shot to where he laid and died. Um, he he didn't have any blood left. You know. So these these big maturity are absolutely incredible. Um. I mean, Josh said it really well. He just said that they are so good at living and he is, I mean he couldn't have said it any better. They are just absolutely incredible survivors. They really are. You can't help but respect him, that's for sure. So so a question for you when it comes a little bit more to the the lessons you've learned just hunting all these different islands, because I gotta believe that that some of the things you're doing are applicable to people that are hunting islands and other parts of the country. There's there's river bottom islands, there's islands in may inland lakes that might hold deer. I can think of a few in the in the Great Lake area that have deer that this might be applicable. Other than the access deal with the kayaks, are there any other little tricks that uniquely work for you when hunting islands that are different than what you do on the mainland. I'm wondering. I guess it's a two part question. I do this is a bad habit, but that's part one of the question. Part part two of the question is can you get away with more aggressiveness on an island because these deer live on this island. They don't want to hop in the river or hop in the water and swim to the mainland or swim to another island. They're they're gonna put up with you pushing in a little bit more like you're not gonna blow them out of the country. Is that true or is that not true? So that's my two part question. Yeah, well, let me get the second part of that first. You know, most of the islands that we hunt, the deer don't leave um um. That being said, you know, deer have been spotted, you know, often by lobstra man and things like that, you know, swimming you know, from the mainland at an island or or or often an island back to the mainland. But the characters that we have chased over the years have pretty much always been there. You know, they don't leave um. And you know, most of these islands are are a mile to say, five miles offshore, you know, so it's a pretty big commitment for them to leave. I think they could leave if there was enough hunting pressure, they might choose to um. But but they what we have found is that they stay there um and and are our pressure UM which is really not a lot um you know, allows them to to sort of stay you know, in their core um. I don't think. I don't think we often blow them out. UM. So UM, that is I think probably the second part to your question, the first part um, you know, I'm there's just a lot of techniques to it, um in strategies with this whole boat access thing, I think, UM, I think there's a lot to gain from from that, you know, from the whole it's a lot of extra steps. I feel it's really worth it because you're gonna get You're gonna find yourself in a place that a lot of people just aren't going to go to. UM, and that being the case if you're hunting big mature dear, you know, that's that's what what we consider to be like percentage points. You know, will and I my son William, we have this sort of joke. We do some really crazy stuff, you know, to hunt these white tail and um, oftentimes we'll do something and we'll look at each other and we're like, you know, this is not you know, like can you believe we're doing this? And then one of us will say something like, well it's maybe two points or maybe it's half a point, you know, and it's like we we sort of stack up all these little moves and in into these percentage points and you know, obviously the big piece of it, you know, I I believe there's there's a luck involved, right, and that's one chunk. But then there's all of this gained you know, uh, percentage that you can do by your actions. And UM, so we we do as much as we can. I mean, if we can think of it, we do it, you know, to sort of stack the odds in our favor. And then you know there's there's really the the year, you know, and and um, you know, at the end of it all, it's like, you know, he gets up and walks to us, right, so it's like whether that's going to happen or not. I guess that kind of goes back into the bucket a lock, you know, But um, that's what happens at the end. You know, we're there, We've put ourselves there, We've studied an area, we get set up. We're very portable mobile, you know, we don't rarely do we have stands that are just like the stand. You know, we move around a lot. We have really small, lightweight stuff. We usually use, um climbing sticks, portable climbing sticks. UM. We rarely leave anything behind. UM in these areas because we well, for one, we just we don't want to We don't want other people to know really where we're hunting, and we just want to respect, you know, the right to be there. And so generally we walk in and walk out with our stuff. Um, So you know that's kind of our approach. I really do believe there's a lot to be gained though, if you want to put the time in for water access. So are there any tricks you've learned over the years when it comes to water access, whether it be you know, how you organize your kayak or I don't know, are there anything specifically when it comes to boating or kayaking into a hunting location to make it either quieter or more efficient, more effective or safer anything like that. Yeah, well, I mean one thing I will say is you do you do sort of have to have a plan A and a plan B, and you have to be flexible um because the water, you know, just poses um you know, a lot of uh, a lot of risk um and so rarely do or we ever, in a situation where we don't have gear, even if we're checking cameras, you know, we have a water bag that's got to sleeping bag and stuff like that in it. And you know, we just be prepared to not be able to sort of you know, execute plan A and know that maybe it's gonna be planned B. I mean, we've been stuck out on islands for three or four days longer than we wanted to be UM just because of weather. UM. So you know, I think that UM, the safety, I think it was one that I would say, you really really have to have that organized. You know, navigation is really important. We have a lot of fog and Maine. UM. There are times when you know, it's like we call a peace soup. You know, you just can't even see anything in front of you. And you know, without like we use on X religiously. I mean that that that app is absolutely incredible for us UM and and and you know, I mean there are times when we're in a kayak and you can't see the shore, you know, and you're like, well, you know, or you can't see your point of access, Like we have to paddle for twenty minutes, say, down the coast line and you know, hit our hit our trail to go into a stand and you can't see anything, you know, and the on X brings is it's it's absolutely incredible. It brings us right to our spot. You know. Um, a lot of these a lot of these islands. You know, we don't have a trail network, so you know a lot of times we're just walking through timber to find our spot, um that we've marked you know earlier or the year before or something like that. Um. But being flexible, I think is is really it's really important for the whole island or boat boat approach. Um, having a seaworthy boat, having a secondary sort of means of of safety, whether it's a a rubber boat in tow or whether it's a ki act like you sit on tops that we've been using, is absolutely critical. Um. I know when we first started doing this, we didn't have any of that stuff figured out, and we used to get out there and pull our boat up above the high tideline and and then we you know, when it was time to go, we'd have to wait, you know, for the tide to be high to push it back in and all that. You know, Now we anchor our boat offshore, and we've learned to trust our anchors, which is not always easy to do. So man, yeah, it seems it seems like a fascinating way to hunt. Um. Now that said, you you're finding big old bucks on these islands, but you're also finding big old bucks on the mainland. Two. Um, absolutely, yeah, I know the trail camera aspect is the same across both. But what about where you're finding these deer or where they're betting or feeding? Um? Are there any other things now when we're moving to the mainland that changed when it comes to your hunting strategy, you're finding is dear sure? Sure? Yeah, Well I would sort of add to that a little bit and say that that the real attraction for us with the island thing is that we can start hunting in September. Okay, So so the mainland season opens in Maine in October, the mainland both season. Um, so you know, we we can hunt for an entire month out on the islands, you know, prior to the mainland season opening. So that is that is really a big attraction to us because we go their own that extra month of hunting and we get you know, deer movement that is you know, I mean there's a lot of changes between September and October and then November, and so we really love that month of September. Um, so in order to do it, we have to go to these islands, you know. So then you know, in October it starts to get colder. We're hunting the mainland. I think we probably have more opportunity for big deer on the mainland than we do on the islands. UM. I don't. I don't think that that, um. You know, it's it's uh, it's stacked in our favor on these islands. We've been successful. But um, but I think you're really in terms of finding big deer, and and it's it's a lot easier to move around for us on the mainland, you know. I mean we can drive twenty minutes in one der actually and twenty minutes in another direction. Kahana piece of ground. Um. You know, usually when you're on an island, you're there. You're stuck there. That's that's the piece that you're hunting. It's rare for us to move from one island to another during a trip, you know, we don't generally do that, um, but we can do that h in the mainlands. You know, we can one one day we can be working on particularly during one area, and and two days later we can be in an entirely different zone because the winds changed, you know. Um so so, but we do we we um, you know, we we get right after it um in October on the mainland. Um. We we generally you know, have gotten our island phil um you know by the end of September um and then we come back, you know, and start hunting the mainland pretty hard. So it seems like from the outside looking in that it's just hard to find bigger or older deer in the Northeast. It's just it's just hard to find him there. Maybe aren't as many antler growth is different than the Midwest. Uh So a lot of guys struggled just to find any buck that we we've already talked about how how you find them this deer with the cameras, But how do you actually find those spots where the big old boys are? Is it? Is it simply just listening to the cameras or are there certain zones or do you have to get so many miles off the road, or do you have to get so far into the mountains or anything that you found this unique to where you find the big old guys. No, I I mean I think they can really surprise you. I can think they can be right under your nose sometimes. Um. You know, we shot a few years ago. We shot on the mainland. We shot a deer that we only had a relationship with for two years. Um. He was twelve and a half years old, and um we we uh we zeroed in pretty quickly on where his home range was. Um. We didn't shoot him the first year. Obviously the second year, UM, we ended up shooting him. Uh. At the end of it was Thanksgiving Day, so it was pretty much the end of the rut, and um he had come back. He had left for a while during the rut. I don't like hunting the rut it's in Maine or in the Northeastern general. I really don't because we can't see very much, you know. Uh, A lot of times we're hunting in these stands. You know, our effective range, you know is is you know, maybe fifty yards a lot of times. You know, most of what we hunted a boat seat, you know, even with our guns. So, um, we just can't see very far. Um. So so you know, you get a run, you get running activity going on, and you're not seeing it now it's happening. It happens like it, you know, happens in the Midwest. And and I love to hunt in Illinois because I love to see I love to see all that stuff, you know. And main we just we just kind of have to imagine that it's happening. We know what's happening, we just can't see it. Um. So um yeah, so so you know, but that deer, that that deer that I'm talking about, we called him the Ranger. And we didn't have a lot of experience with him. He wasn't he wasn't deep deep in the woods. I mean he was you know, from from our parking spot. He was thirty five minute walk into the woods. You know, that's to us, that's not very far, you know. Um. And he he was basically he had developed that home range because of hunting pressure. Um. That's really what pushes him into That pushed him into that zone. Just a place that that people didn't easily get up into. It was kind of overlooked. And U you know, we figured that out about him. I mean I think you know, you start to you start to read the land, you know, when you when you study it. Um that that was pretty obvious to us. And um, you know, I really wanted to shoot that deer with my with my bow. I hunted him the first two weeks, uh, during the gun season I hunt. I continued to hunt him with my bow, and um, I knew I was making it harder on myself, but I really want to get him with my bow. And then it got quick, got really cold, and I started to get tired, and um, I started taking my gun and and I ended up shooting that deer at eighteen yards with my rifle from my stand. So and he was twelve and a half years old. He was, you know, a big old, big old main white tail is like just the biggest blockiest head you could imagine. Um, just a tank, absolute tank. I think he dressed and it was like two to twelve or something like that. But he was he'd been run out. He was. He was a tired old man. When I caught up with him, he had his head hanging low. Yeah. Yeah, can you describe that that tree set up because you killed that buck there? And then in your buddy, I think, I think, Josh, he killed one in this recent season of sea bucks from that same tree I heard, And then I think that I remember hearing one of you guys mentioned that your son shot or missed a buck there too. So what makes this spot other than the pressure pushing deer into it? Tell me about the exact setup. What makes that so good? Why are these deer coming by your tree like that? Yep, that's a great question. Um, it's a knoll. Um, it's just a it's kind of a go between kind of spot. There's not a lot of food there, um, but we do we have we have some food, you know, we have some oak trees, Like there's an oak stand not far from there. Um. You know, it's a hinch to us, but it's not a pinch that you would identify like that you would walk in and say, oh, look that you're going to be pushed down in here, because there it's not an obvious pinch. But um, but it's it's hard for me to describe that. But but you know, we have those obvious pinches and we found that that that deer really don't like them. They just don't want to go through them. And over the years we've we've we've stayed away from those kind of spots. But this is sort of this is the sort of acceptable pinch. You know that white tail will tolerate. So, I mean it has it has that who's going for it? Um, But it's nondescript. I mean, you know, it's it's open, it's mature pine spruce. Um, it's it's it's a little bit of high ground that has a little bit of swamp edge to it. There is an edge, there is a there is a definition that happens in there. And I think that's why that you like to travel on it, because there's a swampy you know piece that then you know, kind of bleeds into like mature time spruce. Um. William missed a big buck up there. You know, I shot the ranger there, Josh shop patches there last year. Um, I think they just dropped that episode and that that was that was a really great hunt. He was you know that that year. That morning was with another year that we founded it called we call him Slick and um we had both of those year twenty yards you know. I mean it was like, that's an incredible day in Maine, you know, I mean, you know in the northeast, that's that's an incredible day, you know. Um. So, but but he wouldn't he wouldn't walk through a spot like that and go oh, this is this is it, this is where I need to set up. It's I think you know, it came to us by just trying it, you know and having a lot of encounters. Um. We did run some cameras in there, and we realized that there was you know, we call him hundred year trails. You know, they're they're they're they're really established deer trails. Um. But that being said that deer aren't just hammering them every day, but um, they're they're there. Their trails that represent to us, um, a connection between kind of like one zone and another zone. And this is kind of in the middle, you know, in between those two things. So so we get deer that they are moving through, they're not going to stay there for very long. UM. So that that's that's that's a really incredible spot. Um. And hunting pressure is what pushes those do look into that zone, you know. So so that's where you know, that's where things change. You know, things change so much through off the season because you know those two aren't really there early. You know, they start to get up in there once people are are climbing around in trees, you know, and and walking in and out and driving four wheels around and making a lot of noise. You know, that's what pushes them up in air. So what are some of the you mentioned that this is kind of an acceptable pinch, and it's it's it's not obvious, but it's it pushes deer there through there a little bit. It seems like that's one of the big things that folks need to look for in big woods scenarios is you're not gonna see the obvious, but there's these little terrain features or habitat edges inside the big woods that can kind of pinch or influence deer movement. Are there any other examples of that that you've seen over the years you can describe for us just to kind of paint the picture of other things that guys or girls should be looking for like that. Yeah. Yeah, Um, well, you know, I think I think when you're looking at at the land, you know, everybody has a different amount of ground that they can hunt. You know, I mean we're talking about you know, hundreds of acres, Okay, So so you know that's that's that's where we start to zero in. You know a lot of our habitat and Maine is is kind of all of the same, you know it it doesn't change a lot. We have this you know, mature pine spruce force and you know it's rare to then transition into hardwoods. But if you can find that, if you can find where you have a whole lot of something that's the same and then you can zero in on where it changes, that's that's really what you want to look for, because that's that's what the deer. You know, there's less of that, right so that so that's going to be attractive to the deer for for a number of reasons, you know, just because of daylight, you know, because of sunlight, because of different food source, because of the change you know that's happening when you transition from one to the other. Um, that's that's really the key. And so we look, you know, we look for that. We can say, oh, this is a two block of you know, mature pine spruce. It's all dead, rotten and blowing over. Well, I mean that's great deer habitat. But they need more than that. So then we start saying, okay, where, you know, where does it change? What what are the what are the you know, is their field is their meadow out here? As there swamp, you know, and then we start studying those areas you know where where where it changes. Um. But the big mature you know, pine spruce force, it's all blowing down is great betting for deer. I mean, they love that stuff. So you can't get anywhere near them, you know, um because you're climbing over you know, trees and um, you're just making too much noise. You know, they're gone way before you ever get there. So UM, I think I think you know, and that's hard because so you know, some people have a fifty acre block awoods that they can hunt, and maybe it's all the same, maybe there is no difference you know in what they have, um. But but trying to find just subtle differences, subtle changes, I think it's going to be really helpful for people to do, UM because the deer, you know, it's the it's their home, you know, I mean, they know they know where that is and that's where they're gonna be. So do you have do you have a favorite example of of something like that other than the ranger stand? We just talked about that one, But is there another favorite example of a big woods tree set up that you have hunt in the past, or that you hunted once, but you realize all this is perfect anything ideal that kind of illustrates those things you just discussed that comes to mind. Well, I will say there's spots that just aren't attractive and like visually attractive where you want to hunt. And I still get like, um steered by those, you know, driven to those, but often they're not, you know, the best you know spot to to have an encounter. You know, it's like you know, they're visually they're great. They're like you know, on the edge of a on a on a stream or or um, you know, on a big meadow where you can see way out into the meadow. Um, and and you know you look at that and you guys, this would be a great place to sit. And it is a great place to sit, but it's probably not gonna be, um the best place to have you know, multiple encounters with big deer. So um. But I don't think I could really, you know, I don't I don't know that I could draw a picture of of of that. I mean, I sign, you know, we just get really excited when we see a lot of sign, you know, and and then we start everything starts happening based on that. You know, um our food sources change a lot over the years here, you know, we don't. It's not like we have crops that the deer are. You know, maybe there's a rotation between corn and beans wheat, but but you know, we don't have that, right so we have UM. We have you know pretty much you know, eggcorns, apples, and then we have all the brows that's in the woods. But then you know we go from there, we go to UM. We go to UM. You know, fields, we do have fields we have you know, we do use some food plots. You know, there's certain times of the year and where that can be certain times the season that that can be really beneficial. UM Clovers are kind of go to in Maine because you know, with the seasons, with the winter and stuff that we have, it seems to be the the feed of choice, you know, a food plot for Deyer. So you know, backtal something he says second ago. When it comes to sign, that's when you guys get really excited when you see a lot of sign. What what qualifies what qualifies as a lot of sign in your part of the country, and what kind of sign? I mean, what I would see in Michigan that would get me excited might be very different than what would get you excited and Maine, what what exactly are you looking for that turns you on that kind of yeah, well, you know, I mean the obvious you know, droppings you know, Um, I mean that's one, you know, the thing that really jumps out when you're in the woods and you see fresh you know, deal droppings all over the place, an area that's tracked up. UM. I mean we do get pretty excited when we find an area that you know, it's kind of uh a rubbing area, you know for deer where there's multiple rubs. UM. I don't think we really you know, develop hunting strategy off of that. You know, it's pretty rare for us to hunt a rub line. Um, but we will hunt scrapes. You know. That's something that um you know, and that's such a great place to put a camera, right because you know, all the deer are checking in, so in the screen short period of time, you're gonna gain a lot of knowledge on what's there and what's using it. Um. So UM, that's the kind of sign you know, it's it's um, it's it's not it's not seeing, dear, it's just seeing the effects that they've had from being there. Speaking of seeing dear, here's another thing I've struggled with, I guess at times, because I do some big woods hunting myself up in northern Michigan, and uh, I'm still figuring out. I can say I've gotten nailed by any former fashion. But one of the things that I struggle with is the fact that there's just lower deer numbers up there, and you can't see very far, like you already mentioned, and you know, deer could be anywhere in that stretch, so you can't see them. There's not a lot of them, and it's really hard to nail down exactly where they are because they don't pattern quite the same as farmland, dear. So because of that, here's my question. I imagine you could sit a lot of days, or I'm sure you have days where you see nothing that you see one deer, and the question is how much time do you give a good looking spot? How many sits without seeing a shooter buck? Would you be willing to hang out in place or return to a place if you're just not seeing what you want? Is? I gotta imagine you have to have more patience than you might have in Iowa, where if I don't see what I want to see in day one, I'm moving in a hundred yards or something like that. What's your approach there? Right right? Yeah? So, UM, I'll give you an example. Last season, UM, we hunted we were scrape hunting on a particular UM, we were looking for a particular deer, and Josh and I sat for not back to back weeks, but we basically sat for two weeks straight on a scrape on the same scrape. UM we I don't think we saw a deer the whole time on that S great. You know, we never had it and we never had an encounter. UM, And so you know we're we discouraged, yes, but UM, we also knew what what the potential was. You know, we knew if he was if he was if he was there, he was gonna come, he was gonna walk by. That S great. You know, Now, this is a deer we don't have a lot of experience with. We've only really been hunting him for UM. This was this was really the first year last year that we were hunting him. UM. And he had he had been to this scrape the year before and he had torn it up, you know, so, um, we were putting a lot of eggs in one basket. Um, I think that's scrape hunting, you know. Uh, it's I think it's worth your time. But UM, I don't know. I think everybody has a different tolerance for how much they're gonna put up with. You know, Um, it's pretty hard to sit for two weeks at five five hours at a time. You know, maybe you come out and have a little break, you know, and then go back in. But you know, from from sun up to sundown on a scrape for for two weeks, I think that's that's borderline crazy. But you know, but we knew what the potential was, you know. So UM, I don't know. I you know, William shoots a big deer at the end of the season. It's gonna be one of the last episodes. He shoots it in May, and he'd come back from Alaska to sixty five days in Alaska with Donny Vincent. You know, William is done, Um director of photography and um he done with Donnie, you know, ten years ago. If if it's on film, pretty much hum filmed it for Donnie and he came back at the end of the season last year. Um, he was back for like the last maybe maybe week and a half of gun season. UM and UM jumped off of a plane, grabbed his gun the next morning and was in the woods. And we were trying to keep up with him, you know, Josh and myself filming, and um and that was a deer that UM, we had hunted for a number of years We've never seen. I think we were hunting. We had four years of observation on him and we've been looking for him for four years. UM and UM, I don't know. I lost my soft aren't well you're talking about Yeah, you were talking about this example of of Wale getting after this buck in the late season and how it may be related to the question of how long how much? Okay, yeah, I'll back up and so yeah, so so William jumps off the plane and UM goes after this year that you know, we had never gotten eyes on. We knew a lot about him. We hunted him for four years, and UM, we were sitting I was hunting with him that morning, and UM, I wasn't with William. Josh was filming William. I was by myself and I had texted William. Oh. I texted William and I said, William, it's it's feeling really impossible. I just I'm getting I'm wearing out. It's really feeling impossible. Well impossible. Well, ten minutes later I sent him a text and I said, William, I just saw a giant out in the heat. You know, I said, I didn't have a good shot. I didn't take it, but he's out there. And William texted being in Josh. They were literally out of the tree within like ten minutes. They were on the ground and they embarked in like a two hour you know, hike in around the backside of his to get into position. And they killed that deer in that afternoon. You know. I saw him at at ten o'clock in the morning, and um, they got into position and they got on them and um, you know they they they end up killing this dear. He's an absolute giant. You know that we've been after for a long time. So, UM, I don't I think you have to move sometimes you have to move, but it's it's instinct. I mean, you just you just you know, it's like somebody's knocking on your shoulder and saying Hey, you've got to get out of this tree and go somewhere else, and and and uh, sometimes you do, you know so, but I don't know I can get I think I think we hang on longer than we generally want to. But but it sometimes pays off, you know, would it? Would you say that? Well, let me tell let me tell you stuff back. What you're describing seems very different than what a lot of people do elsewhere where there's higher deer numbers and you're seeing a lot more deer. Oftentimes, the hunt a stand once and if they don't kill him the first day or the second time they hunted, they're like, it's not gonna happen here because the deer react to that pressure so quick. Do you are you able to get away with longer sits or more sits in the same place, simply because there's lower deer numbers, and oftentimes probably these deer arranging further so that dear year after he might not even be within a mile or two for your first three hunts, but on the fourth day, that's the one day he comes through and he has no idea You've been there, and now you get the crack at him. Is that is that kind of the thought process behind why that can work for you guys. Well, I think you know, again this this is has a lot to do with you know, which months you're hunting in, but certainly later in the season, that's I think very much the case. You know that, um you could hunt, you know, you can hunt a week straight and and you know, and you might not have an encounter with that animal, but it's probably because he wasn't there, you know, as long as you're covering all your bases with wind and all that stuff. Um. So so you know, I think if we feel like we're over pressuring us, but it makes good sense to to leave it alone and get out of there, you know, Um, if you've really pushed it, you know, if the wind is switched direction, or if you've gotten busted. I mean, you know, we all know what that's like to have, you know, deer blowing at you. And you know, I mean if we have deer blowing at us, I mean pretty much write that spot off for a while, you know, um, because you know it's blown out. Um. So you know, I think the northeast probably does offer a little more um sort of tolerance with the deer, you know, they will probably put up with us a little bit more. But you know, I'm not really well equipped to answer that because I don't have a lot of Midwest you know, sort of hunting experience. I mean, I do hunt some in the Midwest. UM, usually it's during the rut, and you know, a lot of deer that I've shot in like Illinois and stuff, you know, UM are probably from another farm or three farms away, you know, because they're just running and U So I don't Yeah. Speaking of the speaking of the difference between like a Midwest hunting tactic and those in the Northeast, what about some of those more aggressive, UM, bring the deer to you type tactics. You know, in a spot like the Big Woods of Maine, where you can't see very far, it could be very tempting to call and rattle a lot because you want to bring something into range that maybe is out there, but you have no idea. Is that something that works for you? Guys? Is that is that taboo? What's your take on that? UM? Yeah, So I haven't had a lot of success with that. UM. But but I I do rattle some you know, early in early in the season, UM, and I always carry a grunt to um and I you know, but but but generally, when I'm using either one of those things, I feel like I'm working against myself. Um. And That's what I think. It's just a lot to do with a personal you know, preference. It's sort of you know, I just I just feel like, you know, it's it's pretty hard to fool a white tail, you know, can it happen? Sure? You know, particularly younger dear. You know, if you rattle, are you gonna are you gonna rattle in a three year old? Yeah, a good chance that that's going to happen. But a big mature white tail, he's got it figured out. He knows if there's an other deer over there fighting, and he you know, he's probably not going to come over there and try to clear a house. You know, he's just gonna walk away. You know, he's gonna he's just gonna take the other the other trail. You know. So I, personally, I don't do a lot of that, you know, Alright, So oftentimes it's all about finding those edges, those slight pinches, the things that in some way move dear to where you can predict to some degree. But what about those times when that's not in the cards and you actually get on the ground and go to the deer. I know that you've done some tracking. That's something I'm fascinated by. It's something I want to try this year. UM, can you talk me through, you know, your approach to that. When when does that tactic you turn to and how exactly do you pull it off? You know? Is it you wake up one morning like there's a bunch of snow today, I'm tracking? Or is it more so you're walking to a stand and you cross the track and you decide, oh, you know what, I'll take advantage of that. Yeah, yeah, good question. Um. It's definitely something that we love to do. Um. We're not often given the chance here on the coast because you know, we have this sort of it's almost like a lake effect, you know, with the snow. Um, it's not that we don't get that opportunity and you and generally when we do, we we seize it. You know, we get on it. We like we like a few inches of fresh, you know, soft snow, and UM, we we definitely love to track. Um. A few years ago we had just a fantastic day. Josh will and I we were all together. We broke up first light, we broke up in the morning and UH all looking for tracks and within uh, within the first forty five minutes, I had it. I had a huge track. And uh I was trying to get Will's attention and Josh's attention and and um, Will said, I've got a really great track, and I just saw him. So it was like so I I left my check and we went to Wills because he had he'd gotten to look at the deer. And um, you know, we tracked that deer all day. We had eight miles, it was, it was an eight mile before we shot him. Um. And he made two classic mistakes, or I should say we made two classic mistakes, UM that we didn't capitalize on. UM. You know early on in that track and UM, and we we knew. We said, well, we're probably not going to get a third chance, but we were going to keep after it. And it was like three o'clock that afternoon we shot him. We all, I mean one, he was betted on a knoll up on a hillside and he had done you know, the typical went up on a hill, he banked, he hooked off to the right and he watched us walk right up the hill. And it's not that we weren't looking for him, and we don't know that, you know that here do that. We just didn't see him. You know, we got up to the top of the hill, his tracks broke right. We walked thirty yards over to the right, and there was his bed and we could look down and we could see where our tracks we are coming up the snow, and so obviously he looked right at us, went off the back side, and you know then then you know this mistake number two. This is a classic. Right then. Look, there were three of us, so I probably should have or Josh should have one of us should have just sat down, you know, right there and just waited. But we tracked that deer over the back side of that hill around and he button up to the background, got right on his trail and came right back up our tracks. So, um, yeah, so I mean, you know that was the That was the classic, you know, mistake number two. And if somebody had just sat tight there, they that deal were walked right to him, you know, um, and then it was you know, it was a few miles later. Um, and I think, really where our opportunity you know when in our direction was that he joined up with three or four dos and he got distracted, and um, we were able to sort of get get up in front of him, and William was tracking. William had tracked that year the whole time. UM, and um I was I was up ahead. I knew a train a little bit, and I got up ahead, and um that beer came, you know, came up through with those doughs and I was able to shoot him. But that was a seven year old, you know, sure, real heavy, heavy manger. So we love to track, you know, and the north Woods is great. Oftentimes we have to go, you know, we have to drive an hour or two to get up into you know spots where the tracking is really good. Um. And if we do do that, you want to be you know, you want to be set up to spend the night. Um. You know, if you're on a really good track and you're deep into the woods, you know, and it's you know, in half an hour left of shooting light, you know, sometimes the best thing to do is just drop and just camp right there, um, and then take the track up in the morning, because you know, if you have to walk out, there's a good chance you're not gonna you're not gonna walk back in and get on that track again the next day. UM, but you you can be sured that if you track them all day, you're you're close. You know, you're you're you're closing the distance and um, so you know that's that's something that we have to do. We just don't get the opportunity as much. It's also really hard to film, um for for whatever reason, it's just really complicated. You you know, you'll see Brett one of our our teammates with Sea Bucks. You know, he shoots a giant in New Hampshire and he tracked them, um, and it's just really complicated, you know to pull all that together, um and get the shot and everything else. So so you know, because of because of our engagement with Sea Bucks. You know, it's it's uh, it's not our our first go to you know, but it is something that we love to do, you know, we really do. Yeah, I gotta get a little more detail on the house of that. So when you start out on a day when you're gonna do that, and you said in the example, you describe the three of you split up to look for a big track, UM, where are you going to find one of these big tracks? Are you just driving roads to you see one cross the road or do you walk out into an area you know, where you think there should be a deer and and hopefully catch that big track. Like how did that process start? Yeah? Great question. So so that particular story I was telling about was actually on an island um, and it was like it was everything was just perfectly lined up. You know, William happened to be here, Um, Josh is here, I was here. So that was a big thing that we got to hit on that. And then we got some snow um and there was there was an island that we really wanted to go there. There were two deer out there that we were really after, two big, mature deer, and so that's what that's what you know took us in that direction. But that you know, we've been trying to do that for years, you know, to get out onto these islands and do some tracking, and it's just the conditions are are it's so hard to get that to line up. So if we were tracking on the mainland, that's what you said is exactly the way to do it is go up north, get on some of these logging roads, um, and pretty much drive the road or walk the road if you if you can't drive it, and just find a big track. Um. And you know, once you start studying these tracks, you start you start to kind of get an idea which one you want to take and which one you don't want to take and um, but that's that's the best method. You know, UM, cover a lot of ground, you know, early on and until you find the track you want, and then it's all on foot from there on out. How How do you tell if it's a track you want, how big does it have to be? How do you determine how fresh it is? How new of a track does have to be to be you know, of your worth your time? Yeah, so I mean the size of the track is is you know, generally the first thing you're looking at, you know, um, and then you know you based on on on that, you can um, you can look at the stride, Um, you can try to make assessments based on how much snow there is if there's not a lot of snow, if he's dragging his feet, you know, if he's tired. You know, those are all things that play into it. And then you know a lot of it has to do with where you don't where you think he's going and how honrible he is based on the train that is going into So, UM, I think that you know is is really a big part of it is you know, do you know the terrain? And and is it you know hontable? You know? Um? And then be a you have to basically accept the fact that you don't know who this gear is. You know, you don't you most likely don't have any kind of relationship with him. So, um, could he be a three year old? Yeah? Could you have mistaken that three year old track for a for a five year old track? Absolutely? And so you have to be at a point, you know, where you're willing to accept that, you know, you might end up shooting a three year old because oftentimes you don't have the time to really study the dear when you get up you know, I mean it could be such that you do, but good chance that you don't. Uh, you're gonna shoot a running deer, So you have to be one to accept that as well. UM, that's not always gonna go just the way you wanted to um, So you have to be prepared for that. You you really, you know, you have snow on the ground, so that's working in your favor. If you don't happen to make a favoritable shot, you know, there's still a good chance you're gonna be able to stay on that year because of the snow. Um. But there's just there's less control, you know, with that whole tracking game. UM. I mean, we really do love it, but you know, we're not engaging with deer that we know, you know, characters that we've identified with. UM. So it's you know, it's not our it's not our number one go to, but it's something that is the season you know, goes on. It's really fun to get into new country and and and uh explore like that. And so we definitely like the track. It sounds like a lot of fun. So, oh, I gotta believe or hope that there's some people listening to this that hunts some kind of big wood situation, whether it's in the Northeast or maybe big woods in the Upper Great Lakes or big I don't know, pine plantations or something down the southern part of the United States where they've got lots of timber and not the usual easier to figure stuff out, stuff like maybe you've gotten patchwork gag land. So I'm imagining this audience member right now. And let's say they're a relatively new hunter. So they're they're loving it, but they just have not figured out this big woods kind of scenarrow which which most of what we've talked about today revolves around something like that, whether it's on an island or the mainland. And this person, this audience member, I'm gonna sit him or her down in front of you right now. John, You're looking this person in the face, and you have an opportunity to leave them with three things. You can call them three lessons or three rules, or the three commandment, the three commandments of John Altman's Big Woods hunting philosophy. These are the only things that you want this person to walk away from today. What would be those three most important takeaways? Takeaways? Okay? Um, So, I think you know, if they want to hunt big mature white tail, they're gonna have to have a lot of patients. They're gonna have to have a lot of families support. I mean, that's one thing that you know, we're all really fortunate, like you know, it's a it's a huge commitment. And um, I mean, we've built our lives around, you know, hunting these big mature deer, and you know we're hunting them, we're collecting information on them, we're getting ready for these times. It's a three six you know, commitment, it really is where it's it's just it's seven. And you know that makes it into our homes. Everybody has to, you know, sort of be behind it and supported or else you're just you're you know, you're just putting up with resistance. And so I mean, I can't I can't say enough about how important it is to be kind of united on this front if you want to hunt big mature white tail. So I think that would be number one is to have have that support. My wife puts up with so much, you know, because of my passion for chasing these big deer around UM and so that that is a really really important one. UM And I think you know with that comes just patients. It just you know, I don't think that you need to um that you're going to be successful right away. I said, I I feel like these big deer, UM, they take they take a huge commitment. You have to build sort of a relationship with them. You have to start to identify them as characters and and and and how they um respond to to pressure, to weather conditions that they're they're like humans, you know, they they're all different. I mean, you have really social gear, and you have dear that just don't want to have anything to do with anybody. And so you have to you have to accept that you're gonna have to figure that out about the dear. Um. And so I think that would be number two is just kind of uh an incredible amount of patients. And then um, you know, I think number three is just being really proficient, you know, being able to make um, you know, quick decisions, being able to move, being able to you know, have lightweight set ups, being able to adjust your plan. Um. You know, it's not there's not two sides to this coin. There's there's there's multiple you know sides. You know it's it's it's it's always gonna change, it's always going to involve. And so being flexible, I think is is you know, really important. And being you know, flexible and proficient you know, whether you're a bow hunter or on hunter or both, it's just being really connected without equipment and gear, um, knowing that you know, if you if you're string loop you know, falls off your bow, Know how to tie it on again, you know, don't don't feel like you have to go to the bow shop to have that done. You know, connect with your equipment, understand how it works. Um, I mean that you know, if you can eliminate that, you know, you know that sort of concern about your ear, No, know it well enough that you know how to fix it. You know when it's not working right. You know, if if something doesn't look right, if you can eliminate that, then you can be so much more focused in the in the moment um you know, to make that shot or to make that decision that's going to get you to the point where you can make that shot. So I think it's just a it's just an overwhelming a commitment that you have to make, you know, to to hunt these big deer. I think that's really really kind of all wrapped up in one. Yeah, it's ready to commit. Very true. All right, John, Well, this has been really interesting. It makes me even more excited for my potential trip up to the Northeast this winter that I'm excited about. Um, but if people are here in this yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna try some of the stuff out myself in in New York or Maine, I think. But um, if people are listening and they are interested in following along with what you've got going on or watching some of these hunts we've talked about, where can they find all this and and learn more about what you've got going on? Sure? Well, we have a website main hunter dot com and that showcases us pretty well, and it talks about um different projects that were engaged with. It has information about us personally, you know, UM, some of our thoughts and beliefs, and then you know, it talks about workshops and things like that that we offer UM. And then obviously we have a on Instagram account UM main hunter Official. UM. You know, we're trying to be better about all of that stuff. Like I often say, you know, it's not our forte. You know, we're the guys that are in the trees, uh, you know, not so much doing that stuff. But we're trying. We realize that the power that that uh is sort of behind it all. So we're trying to to be more present on that front. Um. But that's how you can find us. And and I always encourage people to call you know, I love to talk on the phone. I love to hear hear about different stories that you know, are going on for different people with with their pursuits. So, UM, we're available, you know that way people can find us, you know, perfect. And what about the show Sea Bucks? Where can I see that? Yeah? A Sea Bucks UM is on the Real Tree three platform. UM. It's a sixteen episode series that we made in the Northeast. UM we have you know, we're we're trying to kind of showcase the variety of hunting that exists in the Northeast on the Eastern seaboard. So it goes from Maine down to New Hampshire and then into Massachusetts. UM. And obviously we've talked a lot about Maine. The New Hampshire piece of it, you know, is pretty much mountain hunting in Hampshire. And then we get down into Massachusetts, which is really a whole another sort of approach, and that's an urban style hunting. UM. There's definitely big mature white tails you know, in some of those urban areas, and it comes with a whole another sort of package of goods in terms of being successful at that UM. So, so we're trying to sort of showcase, you know, the different the sort of different segments of the Northeast. I think a lot of people can relate to it. I think it's it's it's you know, it's just sort of hits the nail right on the head to a lot of really uh you know, avid enthusiasts uh that that are pursuing white tails. So we're really happy about it. It's been a it's been a lot of fun. Um, We've got some great ideas for this upcoming season. Um. I think it's gonna looks like it's gonna stay there on that platform, the Real Tree three sixty five platform, and it may be um in some other spots, maybe on Carbon and we're probably gonna have it on a YouTube channel as well, So that's where you can kind of look for this upcoming season. Very cool, awesome. Well, from what I've seen so far, I really liked it, So I would encourage people to check that out. If this has been intriguing. And John, all I gotta say now is thank you. I appreciate this. Yeah, thank you, And it's really great to talk with you about it. This is a lot of fun. Good luck this upcoming season. Thanks a lot all right, and that will do it. I hope you enjoyed this one. Thank you all for listening. Much more to come in the upcoming weeks and monthly in the hunting season. I can't wait. Hopefully you're as excited as I am. And until next time, thanks for listening, and stay wired to Pett and Pett

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