00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon in this episode number two eighty nine. Today in the show and joined by Matt Dye and Adam Keith of Land and Legacy to discuss their holistic approach to habitat management and food plots. All right, welcome to the Wired Dun podcast, brought to you by on X, and today we've got Matt Dye and Adam Keith joining us. And these guys are the owners of Land and Legacy, which is a habitat consulting business as well as a content platform which they're producing all sorts of podcasts and videos and blogs and all sorts of things revolved around managing and improving properties for deer and other wildlife. But they're doing this in a way it's it's i think, pretty different than most others out there. Right, there's all sorts of different habitat experts out there. We've talked to someone them on the podcast and they're great, But Man Adam bring this unique perspective that's very focused on on trying to harness the natural processes and systems out there, trying to do things that are more in line with with the natural way of things, more in tune with Mother Nature, instead of fighting against it with these unnatural disturbances or whatever it might be. And I think this leads to a it's kind of a philosophical conversation to a degree, but then also we get to some very tactical things too. So we talk high level habitat ideas, why they look at the natural world in this way, why they try to approach their management projects in this way. But then also we get right into, you know, the nitty gritty details of how to plant better food plots, how to improve different parts of old fields or a timber stand, how to do these things in ways that that require less of this unnatural rule contact. You know, how we can get get away with getting great food plots with less herbicide. How can we do things with a reduced tillage. How can we find ways to to maybe go against the conventional wisdom to some degrees as far as the negative impacts we might have, but still getting great benefits for deer and deer hunting. Another wildlife that in a very vague, high level kind of sense is what we're gonna be discussing today, um, and I promise you it is very interesting and very applicable to what I think a lot of us will be focusing on here in the coming days, weeks, and months as we head into the season these final you know, this build up to hunting season for a lot of us. If you can manage properties to any degree, or even if you just want to someday, the content the kind of stuff we discussed today is going to be very very useful, all right with me on the line. Now, we've got Adam Keith and Matt Dye from Land and Legacy. Welcome to the show. Guys, Hey, Mark, thanks for having us. Great to be here. Appreciate it, sir, Yeah, I appreciate as well. And it's it's I probably should have brought Dan in here, since you guys are part of sports in his nation, and I'm kind of like yanking out his superstars out from underneath him and talking to you guys on on our show here. But I'm glad that the nine Fingered Wonder is willing to share with you you guys have wired to hunt, because I think you guys have a good, a really good thing going. UM. I've been enjoying the Land Legacy podcasts. It's one of the only other hunting related podcasts at all that I actually listened to because so much of it I'm consuming all the time. But you guys give me something that's a little bit different, a little bit outside of the norm um when it comes to habitat and management that I think is his relatively unique in our space and is needed, which is which is why I wanted to have you guys on the show to talk about that. UM. And it's also I told you this before we start recording. But I've been out west for like a month month and a half now, just kind of thinking about all the work I have to do once I get home, and like my blood pressure has been steadily rising. I'm having like night sweats. I wake up in the middle and I thinking, oh my gosh, you have to get this done and this done, and this done, this done. So you guys are gonna help prepare me for my return. I'm gonna be home and it's a matter of days. So I'm counting on you guys to have me all buttoned up and ready to rock. And roll once I hit the ground, So can you do that? That's a lot of pressure right there. I think we're up for the past. Yeah, that's definitely a big part of what we do is prioritizing the projects. So, yeah, exactly. So so what how is that going for you guys personally so far this summer? What are you what are you focusing on right now? Great question. Yeah, a lot. Probably, there's always a lot of irons in the fire. I think that's what's common among a lot of people. But right now, a big portion of is is taking inventory of what's out there and then kind of connecting the dots and and and making sure we're going back and looking at historical information of some patterns that we've you know, the past couple of years, and then from there that's going to guide the actual in the field tasks that get done. Yeah. And if you're asking specific projects that we're trying to line out, is you know, we just as you mentioned earlier, we're consulting. So a big part of our spring and early summer is consulting. So summer is when we get to do a lot of the work. We laugh, when we're consulting. The Cobbler's kids don't have shoes. We're laying I guess laying consultants. But we don't get to work on our own land most of the for a big part of the year, especially the best time of the year to be doing a lot of work. So we've got projects lined out where we're trying to get to the farm. We've got our trail cameras up, but we're we planted our food plots in mid May, and now we're really trying to line out and try to improve betting areas and edge feathering. That's a that's a big project for us this summer. And and do you guys have you know how many different properties are you may managing for your own hunting, your own family activity and stuff like that. What kind of work load is that? So there's basically two farms, but they're joining, so it's one big contiguous piece of ground that's about nine acres. Okay, so I'll keep you busy now, Yeah, it does. In between Matt and I and then my brother, it's it's the three of us that really do a huge part of the work. And and you know, I'm sure we'll get into it, but a big project that's been occurring with the timber harvest, and so we've seen our dear numbers. It doesn't appear that we have a lot of deer really active on the farms right now, because most of them are in the areas that's been then and there's all kinds of native brows and so that's where all our deer are. So it's been a little bit tricky to get pictures of the deer this summer. So you mentioned this, this timber harvest and the fact there's so much native vegetation and brows out there now. That makes me think about a statement I've heard you both make a handful of times, which is the fact that when you work on these different types of habitat projects, for for wildlife, for white tails, whatever it might be, you're trying to work with nature, not against it. And it seems like I hear that popping up again and again, and you apply it to different things. It's now like you're just using that phrase in relation to just food plots. It's something that seems to be like a holistic philosophy that goes across all the decisions you guys make. What does that mean you guys? Yeah, I think if somebody was to say some up landing legacy in your mindset in one phrase, it would probably be that would probably be one of them that we use often as working with nates. You're not against it, So explain that for me. What why does that matter? How does that actually manifest itself? And what you guys do. Okay, for example, let's what jump back into the member harvest in the native brow. So this area that was timber harvested, was it was neglected timber for years and years and years in this site historically was a woodland um. And a woodland is kind of a broad phrase, so I'll try to key in on that and say that a woodland uh an upland woodland, which is what this site is, was typically a lot of trees, but also had thirty to forty you could even drop down, say more sunlight than a closed canopy forest. And so with that amount of sunlight, you had herbaceous plants um and also more young young forest growing within these wood lots. In these forests, so you had sufficient amounts of forage and cover for wildlife, not just deer, but all for wildlife. UM. And so you know, as you neglect your timber as as this area had, it was really just becoming more of a an area that deer and wildlife passed through and weren't surviving and flourishing there. And so with this timber harvest, uh, of course the landowner made money, but at most importantly it opened up that canopy to where there's a huge flush of sunlight. And then we pulled up with some timber stand improvement um to really try to restore the landscape. Um. And once we open that canopy up, it's important that we returned prescribed fire um fired being a huge part of the landscape of what really shaped this part of the country and a lot of parts of the country. And so by doing that, we're just replicating nature. Now, the timber harvest, you're gonna say, well, that's not replicating nature, but the way fire went across the landscape but naturally thin timber and caused these openings and and would find weak trees and thin them out to where you had this landscape of kind of a mosaic of openings and timber and more of an open forest. And so because of that, we've now restored the landscape and it's going to be much more beneficial the wildlife because we're just restoring what was their presettlement. Did I get that? Yeah? You know that, that's right. I mean, that's that's the big thing is Okay, understanding what the soil type is, what historically was there, what disturbances naturally happen, and then you can understand, Okay, this site was let's say a woodland, or this site was a glade, that's what those conditions, based on the climate, based on the average rainfall, based on the pilotypes, that's what it should be. So if we're trying to make it something that it's not, it's gonna be inferior to the natural landscape that it should be. So why not just work with mother nature restore it to what the site tells us it should be. And we know by default then with all these disturbances that we're gonna follow up with, it's gonna be the best that it can be. And and that site now has got thousands I don't know how many pounds of food, let's say, probably two thousand pounds of food and ache or each year that's producing. Whereas before close Cannaby you were talking under a hundred. It was it was just leaves and sticks and and so kind of working with nature. Again, this was the only thing we had had we'd say, well, we need to have a food plot in here, and because of the soil type and being a west facing kind of a southwest facing slope, it's definitely it would have been a problematic food plot where we would have had to pour soil amendments, um the fertilizer in line to try and get it productive. When we can just look at the natives and say that's good enough, and that's that's probably better than we could ever do with food blood. Yeah, I've heard you guys kind of walk through other examples like this, where where someone tries to force a food plot into an area and then you raise the question, well, what was growing there naturally before? Or what should there be naturally? If you you know, what could you be producing without need to put all this money into herbicide and fertilizer and seed and all this um. How do you guys, how do you guys try to recommend people make that decision? Like, how should me? Is the average guy or girl? Look what am I trying to stay here? How do we know when that's the case? How do we know when we're making that mistake. Great, great question, and there's tools out there. UM. One thing that we utilize a lot is called the web Soil Survey, and that allows you go and look at the type of soils that you have and then usually or or in some instances, that will provide you with an ecological site assessment with a lot of big words to say historically, what was here? What was their way back when? Based again on the soil types and the climate. UM. So those tools and you can go, you can look at this type in the Google Web Soil Survey and search your area UM and hopefully it'll pull up that information. But that then will allow you to okay, this is what it was. It will always pull up the soil type, sure, but the ecological side assessment. Again, sometimes that isn't pulled up on on each site, but typically it will give you a really good indication of what the area should be and then that will help guide you to make those management decisions down the road. So I guess in simple terms, there's two big, two big things that need to come in mind on whether you should have a food pot or their food pot or not there what's the soil can it actually grow a a profitable or successful food plot or crop, and then can you hunt it even if you were able to plant it. I think that's where we see a lot of times where there's a landowner just bought a property and there's an opening down in a valley in a bowl, and it's like, well, that's already open, I'll plant it the food plot, and then they try to hunt it and the wind swirls and it's just you cause more problems, um than success. And so that would be another huge part of whether or not you should plant this area in a food plot. Yeah, so back to the native vegetation. So let's say you find a spot like that and you you determine, Okay, no, this isn't gonna work very well for a food plot for whatever reason. Maybe historically that's just not what should be there. Maybe it's the wind issue. But you want to try to manage this native landscape and some kind of way to make sure you're maximizing its potential. Um. You mentioned timber harvest is one thing you would do in a closed canopy type situation. What are some of the things that you're thinking through as far as managing other areas let's say open areas that could have been planted food plots, but for one reason or another, you don't want to do that. UM. How do you think through those types of situations. I'm actually this in a I have some opportunities like that now with old fields that I'm trying to fare out. What's the best way to work with this? Um? What's it? Can be a little bit daunting at this big field. Conventional wisdom is spray it, burn it planet. Um. But to your point, maybe I can just work with nature and not need to do that. UM. Can you kind of walk us through your perspective on how do you think what that kind of thing? What kind of potential is there? What value is there for wild lift? I know there's a lot, but sometimes people don't realize that when they just see a scrubby field. UM, where where's your guys heads that with that kind of thing? Absolutely, that's one of our favorite I guess open areas that aren't food plots would be one of our favorite things to try to manage, because you it's a blank canvas um one of the biggest things. And I think you see it a lot in q d M A articles called old field management. UM. That's typically where we will take an area that's maybe it was crop or maybe it was pasture, uh, some sort of Typically if you say pastor, it might be a cool season uh non natives such as tall fescue or smooth brome, or down south it maybe a warm season non native behavior grass or um mute umber muti grass, and so basically we're trying to convert it to something more um for active, for the for the wildlife, and so typically UM this is where we get into the herbicide use, and probably the most popular way that we use herbicides is a hopefully once or twice application during the peak time of that non native. So if it's a cool season grass, we're going in after the first couple of frosts in maybe in your area it's November or late October and all the other natives have gone dormant. You're spraying that area out and you're letting that you're basically killing that non native um or. It could be during the during the warm season. Down south with behea grass, if you have a very dominated field of behey grass, you're spraying that out trying to kill it, and you're basically just pulling the tarp if you will, off the off the ground and saying okay, mother nature, nature fix it. Put something back here. At Nature's way is always cover the soil um the nowhere nature do you find exposed soil in a common practice basically for instance, like tillage, So you're pulling the tarp off and you're letting nature fill back what should be there to cover the soil. Sometimes if you're in heavy crop places and you cut out a little bit. But if it's heavy crop places, you might have a little bit of problem of getting those beneficial plants um back, and so you may have to your best option maybe going into and trying to plant some sort of pollinator blend or grass blend um and trying to restore a grass and site um if you're in a place that's experienced heavy tillage and heavy herbal herbicide applications over the years. But a great option for that would be equipped programs through the government um to restore these grasslands and pollinator areas. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, Mark, I should let you go, Matt, because I'm about to pivot. Basically, you know, there's a lot of times the opposition of that field really dictates what the first moves are, and I say composition. It's like what is in there, how much how much beneficial species are in there. Let's say it's versus bad. You might just be doing going in and targeting these bad species, maybe their non naving basis like autumolive or Terca left mediza, and you can just do spot spray applications to address those trouble areas and then let that success that succession take over producing annual weeds the first couple of years and then turning over into more perennial things. But like Adam said, addressing the bad and then letting mother nature to replace it. Um deer and a lot of wild game species live from four foot down, so that first bit of cover that naturally comes back, it's usually very beneficial for a lot of different animals. And I think I want to share one story real quick on on exactly what what we're just talking about. And it goes to southern Iowa and a property that used to be a cattle property and it was all pretty much smooth brom and um tall fescule. We went in assess the ground and helped the landowner restore a prairie websital survey told us that parts of this probably were prairie and oak savannah, so we knew it was a grassland dominated landscape historically. So we went in and we spread, helped them spray uh during during the spring, actually it was during March, and then we returned in early May and burned it. And it went from shinn haigh to knee high non native cool season grass to chest high and above chest high or above head high grasses and forbes, golden rod, big blue stem, indian grass, all kinds of ragweed, um uh. The list goes on milkweed everywhere, um to a point where a significant get chif in dear activity happened on the sites that we were restoring. We didn't do the whole landscape immediately, we did. We broke it up into quadrants, and every time we focused in on an area, that's where the deer with chiff could chase those um chase that cover and those beneficial forbes in the burned areas. It's that story. There's just one example of many that have been restored, but it's incredible to see the response of the native vegetation and then correlate that with the response of hunting observations and stories and success based in and around those areas that have been treated and restored as what they should be historically speaking. So here's the challenge that I've faced as I've been thinking this through myself. Um the situation outline seemed like it would work fair well. But if I'm in a situation like I think it was you Adam who mentioned, you know, sometimes you have to come in and late October or November and spray it for certain species, and then the next year you can go in and possibly replaying it with a pollinatir blend or whatever it might be. So many of these different management strategies will require that heurb side application during the hunting seasonally during the heat of the hunting season at the very best time. I would rather someone cut off my pinky toes than me go out there the first week in November and go all over my property, you know, and spook every single buck off the field. Um so in the spring, so you can get away with the spring application, like it's not absolutely have to do it enough all, No, but we've had you don't get a better most likely a better success rate out of a fall application, but we've had great success in the spring because um, everyone's in that same boat. Yeah, we're all sitting here going I know I should do it, but I'm not going to because I'm gonna be in the tree stable. Yeah. Spring, Yeah, and it could be March s Bactually we always just look and see, um, you you want to have that whole clump of tall fest or smooth brome green and up. Um, And there's like a two week window in there where it's already greening up before a lot of the other natives start to pop. Okay, So so what about this also the fact that we were talking all about these these old fields and managing them and trying to you know, improve the type of cover types there and the food source there and everything. But I do think that it's not as sexy as the food. Plus, most people at home want that beautiful green carpet of clover or whatever. They see the brushy field, and the average guy girls just sees an opportunity to do something else. Um, can you just speak to the value there, Like, I know there's a tremendous amount of value, but can you just help us they help illustrate that, Like, what does an old brushy field that's well managed do for us as you know managers, as hunters, there's a lot of value there, right, Oh my god, I don't great, great question. Yeah, I don't think there's anything sexy about what we do in the in the management. But I think it's a mindset change that would need to occur. When you think about to me, I guess the I'll go straight hill billy on you here. Whenever you see when I see these brushy fields, Automatically in my head, I'm like, oh, that looks bucky, and it's like, man, you can we can go in there in November and kick out a big buck, probably with the dough, or we'll go in there in December and kick out a bunch of rabbits. It's just very wildlife friendly. Um. But it's not aesthetically pleasing. And I think anybody lists our podcast listen to us talk, aesthetics is not something and we go for because nowhere in nature, once again, working with nature, not against her, is aesthetics is not something that nature cares about. Um. It's a very chaos driven way of management, and so we're really just trying to be as chaotic. But most importantly as diverse as possible, chaoic and strategic. I think I think you have to ask you what yourself. The question is why am I? Why am I improving this? Am I improving it for myself? Or am I proving it for the wildlife? Because again, the wildlife doesn't care where it looks like it's sleeping. It just cares that it's secure. And and to answer the question about you know, let's compare a food plot to let's say an old field stand. Is that food plot, Yes, it produces a lot of forage per year, but it's only producing forage. Whereas in comparison to an old field stand, you take an acre of that next door to a food plot, you have both forage and cover in the exact same acre, and not just forage during a certain time frame. If if it's old field and you have that component of shrubs, you now have food. And you can look at almost anywhere in the country and you'll see really browsed heavily food plots during that late winter early spring. But you'll also can turn around and go to a field of an old field and see natives already pomp and the deer could be browsing on. So they're already providing forage during the very early ring, and then they're flourishing through the summer providing tons of forage and then at the same time providing cover. But then you go into the fall and you still have diversity in that old field where you still have forage available with certain species, but then you take it in the winter there's cover there. But then that's when those shrubs and that woody browse is abundant to where you've got food year round and cover a year round in an old field or prairie grass and landscape. If I'm if I'm a guy who's got limited acres toun and manage, I want each and every acre. It's more important for each and every acre to have multiple uses as in food and cover than just one. So I wanted to my property to be the most attractive the longer periods of the year or throughout the entire year, not just these peaks that we see in food plot acres. So old field is roughly three thousand pounds of digestible wards a year. Food plots, depending on the species, is four to five thousands. Some somewhere in that neighborhood but food plots don't provide cover old field does. So you're killing two birds with one stone in old field situations. And it also you have to pay for the food plot every single year. You have a lot more work. Yeah. So another benefit of these of these old field type habitats or some other kind of plantings you can do is that they benefit pollinator species, things like monarch, butterflies, and bees and and all that kind of stuff. Um. This, this the notion of of managing or trying to improve habitat for pollinators is something that's beginning to be talked about a little bit more in our world, just a little bit. Um. It's something I've been paying on a lot of tension to here recently and starting to try to factor into my management plans. Um. Can you speak to why that matters? Like why should a deer hunter if someone would call themselves a deer hunter first and foremost, why should they care about something like that? Um? And how might that benefit their dear related goals to absolutely? Uh, we'll have to be very careful when you start mentioning monarchs and and pollinators, so we don't nerd out on this. Um. So it kind of goes with that whole caring about the holistic um landscape. UM. And we're looking at trying to manage for not only pollinators, for the microbes and the microbial activity and the microbes in the soil all the way up to other bird species. And if you deer are relatively pretty easy to manage for when when you look at them from a whole I guess nationwide landscape, you'll find them in residential areas, eaten zaleas or whatever else in and plantings and so they're pretty adaptive. Um. But you start looking at monarchs and pollinators, they look they take a little bit more um, a little bit more management freeze. We should care about those is because if you have this diverse landscape to where you're providing benefits to species like the monarch, butterfly or some of our native pollinators, you have them on your landscape, it tells us we have enough diversity on the landscape to provide all the benefits to the deer um to where they don't have to go to the neighboring properties or five miles down the road to find species to survive. You should have everything there when you get this diversity of species. Yeah, it's kind of like a you know, you can use it as an indicator species or an indicator of quality of the habitat that's there. If you have a lot of pollinator species, oh well then I'm doing a great job of managing my property. And I know other species like deer and turkey and quail. Can you look at quail and turkey polts. Most of their diet when they're first born is all insect based. So you can't have those types of the species without a good population of insects aka pollinators things like that, you won't have honetable population. So you need be managing and looking for these indicator species to know where you stand in the quality of habitat you're providing. Yeah, I think there's a lot of species we look for. It would go up to the northeast. It's like, oh, Matt was in uh Pennsylvania at this spring or a couple of months ago and got into an area where it's like, boy, the habitat looks like it's the habitat is getting good around here. Out jump some rough grouse and it's like, oh, perfect, that's exactly what we're going for. Um down here in the Midwest, it may be northern bobwhite quail, but pollinators compare it to close canopy forest that's not providing anything for pollinators hardly, uh, specifically on our butterfly. And so if you don't have them, if you don't have the species within your timber, then you're not You probably don't have the species that are providing much benefit to the white tailed deer. But if you have them out in your open areas, then those same species that the poll that the pollinators are using the deer used as well for brows. Um. And then some of them, like golden rod, grew up tall enough to provide cover as well. So so um. One of the situations I've been encountering or learning about a little bit more here recently are the government programs that are out there to incentivize the improvement of pollinator habitat. Because right there's there's at a very high level. You guys can try speak to us better than I can, but at a very high level, we're noticing significant declines in many pollinator species population levels across the country. And these pollinator species play a very important role across a number of facets, especially agriculture. A huge amount of our crops out there depend on some degree of pollination as well as many other things going on across the nation without these butterflies, about these bees, with all these other insects, if we really do dramatically lose many of those populations were in trouble. They do a lot of natural They provide a lot of benefits through these different natural systems. So, because we're facing this crisis of some sort, the government, state and federal has a number of different programs out there to incentivize private landowners to put in or to try to manage their property in some kind of way that will provide the habitat these these animals need, these creatures needs. So they'll give you maybe cost assistance with provide you know, get buying seed or buying spray. Um. They might even pay rental payments on stuff like this part of CRP whatever it is. UM. So the point being is that there are these programs that you can get involved in that will incentivize you, help you manage the cost to manage an old field like this, to put to plant a pollinator blend or something, so you'll get some cost assistance out of it. But then like cremin if I'm wrong, but the types of things that these guys are are helping you pay for these pollinator blends, these native grasses and wildflowers and stuff that's tremendous wildlife habitat across the board. Right, that's not just great for butterflies and bees, that's great for deer and turkeys and polls everything you just said, right. Absolutely. I think if if you were to ask me, if you were to put me in a corner and tie my hands behind my back and say from November one November, you can either hunt food plots or you can hunt old fields, I'll no doubt say I'll hunt an old field because I know sooner or later I'm gonna it's gonna pay off big for me. I'll be on the other side of that old field with a bow in hand too. Yeah, with doubt, a doubt, without a doubt. And I mean food is definitely important, and food plots are great. We plant food plots ourselves. But at the same time, I think cover is a huge part um that that is sometimes overlooked and not used and sold. These pollinator programs not only do they help basically you're coming at it from a pollinator approach saying, Okay, we're doing this for the pollen, for the pollinators, but your deer benefiting just as much. And in most instances if it's a crop field, yeah, sure the crops provided some benefit to the deer during a portion of the year, but this is year round benefit to the to the wildlife, and the government is helping you do it. And it's not only making that area better, but the area around it, the other parts of the of the land much more productive. You talked about UM as we're kind of getting to this topic. The fact that you are focusing your nerd out really on a lot of the the minute aspects of landscape health, things like microbes, things like pollinators, things like soil health, UM and all of this is all related to another topic that I've been really geeking out myself on, which is this idea of regenerative agriculture and how to apply some of these ideas. We're talking about two now. If we are are going to actively manage a piece of ground or some portion of it to try to plant a crop of food plot of some sort, trying to do that in a way that's in sync with nature, I think is a natural next step from what we've been talking about here, there's there's managing what's already there, and then if we are going to add something new, how do we do that in a way that, um, that is as beneficial as possible without pulling in any of the negative side effects of some of the tools that are typically used within the conventional agricultural world. UM. Tell me a little bit about just why or how regenerative agriculture, however you guys want refer to this kind of concept as how that became something you guys are interested in and why it's still appealing. I know, I think out of out of failures, definitely out of failures and mentors of mine UM over the years. Uh. And then that was I mean years ago, uh in the two thousand, probably two thousand eight nine, and then also again two thousand anti in I worked with some guys that had this mentality before it was called reginative agriculture, but they had a very holistic mindset. One was a cattle farmer who just tried to add as much diversity in his pastors as austome UM to a point where he was like, I'm not fertilizing, I'm not adding any soil amendments. I'm using the cattle to fertilize my pastures, but i'm moving them. Basically, all I'm doing is replicating what the bison hurts dead years ago. And back then as a young guy, that really, I mean, I was still focused on I want to kill the biggest beer in this county. And so looking back, I'm like, man, he was so ahead of his time in that mindset. Um. And then I worked for another guy who was uh. He worked for the conservation apartment, and he was the one who encouraged planting diverse food plots because we need to be thinking about all the native species, not just here. And both those guys were huge and and really pouring in that mindset of you know, there's more, there's more out here than just deer. And if you focus on trying to help species that need more help, pollinators, bob like whail um, redhead woodpecker, all kinds of other species that may be a species of concern, your deer still benefiting just as much um and and probably gonna do better than just your typical food plot, close canopy. For it's management that you see a lot so for for myself, I grew up on the East Coast, specifically within the Chestpeake Bay Watershed, and there's a lot of of course laws and things like that, um, nutrient management in that area, and that I'm not gonna say is the birthplace at all, but a humongous wave of cover cropping began in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed in Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, those type of areas Pennsylvania as well. UM, And so I was kind of immersed in that to grow up in a farming community background in the family, and so I've kind of always known cover cropping, no till drilling, and just kind of new, gosh, why why wouldn't you do this kind of stuff? And then moving out to the Midwest, it's like, oh wow, that's that wave of information. Um, hadn't made it this far out. Again, it's like, well, we can apply it elsewhere too, not just from a farming standpoint, but why wouldn't we do it in in like food plot acres as well. So that was kind of like that information, like, wow, we can we can take this application in a farming sense, And because again the soils foundation, why not why not learn the foundation the knowledge behind how to manage it? Learn it and then apply what we need to and the plot situations. So can you walk us through your guys process for your typical food plot, because I know it's different than the usual the typical person out there who's who's going to about doing things in the conventional way. The way you guys are operating is is pretty unique compared to that. Can you walk us through what that process throughout the year looks like for you and then as you do that, explain why what you're doing is beneficial. Yeah, So sticking a food plots, I guess our typical process and I don't know if there's anything typical about what we do. I'm trying to think of because we're always testing and trying new things. But a typical way that we would plant a food plot is our goal is to have diversity UM and we can't always do that. We weren't able to do that on my family farm because of years of heavy tillage UM and and problematic species like crab grass. But our typical way is to spray UH two courts preaker of life of states pre planting, So some in April we will spray UM and then we will plant a diverse blend eight or more species typically, and that's it. That's all we're gonna do until August rolls around, and then we're gonna go back in. Let's make sure. Like a lot of people would hear you say spray and then plant, and they think, well, what about all the in between stuff? There's no one between for you, right am? I am I hearing you right? That you are spring? And then how long the time period are you waiting between the spray and then going and planting? And how are you planting? Are you is this drilling it? Are you broadcasting it? Are you what are you doing there? Give me a little more detail? Oh yeah, all the above. Yeah. So we've got two different techniques and and we've tried because I think there's a in a food plot world. There's there's I guess, practical for most guys, and then there's what our goals are are. The top of the summit is, Okay, if I'm planting food plot, what is the very best thing I can do to ensure a productive food plot? And that's no till drilling. But at the same time, that's not practical for a lot of guys. But for us, we have easy access. We can rent a hotel drill right in our county U s d A office, and so we spray and then it may be two days or it may be a week before we go in with the no tel drill and we drill our food plot and then we don't do anything. If we plant what we want, and it's typically this diverse blend has got sun, hemp, cowpeas, I can list those out, some flowers, um my lot millets. We plant that and then we don't do anything until August when we plant our fall plot. Um. And we may do the same thing or we may just drill right through the standing. We we don't really have a system that's like we do this every single time. It really depends, honestly, watching how that food plot grows throughout the summer, depends on the incoming rains. Um, you know, what are what are we expecting for the fall. And here's another important thing to note is no till planting also includes broadcasting. That's a form if you're not doing any tillage and you're simply broadcasting seed onto the ground into stuff or or thatch layer. We've done that with a lot of success, and I think it's important to note that that's a form of no tilling planting. It's just not utilizing the no till drill. So a lot of people want to say, hey, I want to be conscious of the soil and not till it, but I can't get no till drill. Well, we'll know that you're still doing no till practices by broadcasting seed. But from our experience, you have to have an adequate thatch layer and rains to allow that seed to germinate. But it will absolutely work. Yeah, and so I guess if you wanted to sum up our two processes for planting food plots that we use most of the time is spraying and within a week we know till drill. Typically that's more important in the spring with bigger seeds like corn or soybeans um. And then we also use a technique that is basically we spray, we broadcast, and we then culti pac or roll or drag um that area that we just sprayed. And basically that is that is what we found as being the most successful way to to have a food plot without having any other equipment besides a four wheeler and a drag or could patter um. But that that system is very It's very important that you have main forecasting and coming. So, so give me a little more detail as far as the specifics, because that that scenario right there is what I was trying this spring myself, and I was trying it to plant food plat screens. So I've never done this before. I never tried the no tell broadcast only approach, but I thought, you're gonna give us a shot. Um. So what happened for me that was trying to figure out what's the right order of operations, what's the right gap in time between things between when I spray and when I broadcast versus and what I did the throw and MO. So I tried spray, broadcast MO over top, um, But can you walk me through the like the actual details of the ideal scenario, like when you would do the spray, how long you'd wait to broadcast, or what the right orders and all that. What's worked the best for you guys at least? And sorry, one more additional question. What types of seeds does this kind of thing work for versus what types of seeds would not? So typically the best case scenario for this to work is you get some rains, you have moisture in the soil. You go out and you broadcast your seed. You can do this a couple of ways, but most importantly, you've got rain, so you've got moisture. You go out and you spray it and you kill it, and then you return and and we've done this the same day, spray it and then turn around and broadcast the same day, or you can wait a few days ads. But the key is that you have thatch. That's gonna be the biggest thing to ensure a success or one of the big things, because you need something to cause this almost vapor barrier and hold that moisture in um to where you get good seed um german nation. At the same time, it protects those seeds from being eaten by birds and mice and other and other animals. So having moisture in the soil then also having a thatch layer. And it could be only knee high grass, it could be just tall festival to say, it could be your fall food plot, your spraying out, or it could be a pasture that or a portion of a patch they have permission to plant. Yeah, that's that layer super important. So it's moist ground spray broadcast either day of or or or day after and then you hope for income and lay that thatch rate or top of it, or you can drag it right on top of it. Um that the biggest thing is having thatch layer and having rain coming as what's going to make that um and make sure that that rain is not an absolute gully washer. Even if you have some thatch that that water, that amount of water in a short period of time is going to redistribute that seed across the field and you'll have really heavy patches really light patches. So just make sure it's a nice general rain and and a strong um percentage of rain coming and walk away and let nature run its course. Those seeds will germinate, come up through the thatch, and that the beauty of the thatch is that once those seeds germanate, let's say you've got a little bit of a duck layer that's helping protect those seeds and and that tender vegetation establish a root system so that when it does jump above the thatch layer, it can resist some of that browse. You know, it can handle some of that pressure that's going to come. The most important thing that you can do is protect young basically young forage from getting over browned, and that thatch layer help to do that absolutely. And and so when you're asking about species that it works best with smaller seeds is always better. UM. So that's why in the fall you tend to. Everybody is probably at some point planted a fall food plot of wheat and spilled some in the back of the truck, and three weeks later they turned around, they've got a food plot growing in the back of the truck. UM. It's a really hardy species that can grow and gravel. And same with cereal rye and um. So those species do really well with this application. But we've had success planting soybeans and UM. But it all comes back to having the thatched layer and having an adequate moisture UM to ensure success. I'll speak Mark, if you don't mind. People are probably listening, going that sounds way too complicated. I'm gonna keep tilling UM and I'll speak a little bit on I guess my experience if you want to dial it way back. Um over. I think when I calculated this, I think it's about twenty one or twenty two years we've been planting food plots at my family farm Ozark Mountains, very shallow soil is not a lot of organic matter. When we started planting food plots, I almost cringe explaining this, but we had a big plow disc plow um, so it's a two disc plow. We plowed the entire field. Then we turned around and we broke out the disk and we disc the entire field to break up that sod layer, and then we harrowed that entire field, and then we broadcasted our seed and then we drugged the field. Um. It was a long process. Weeks weeks we would start that because we only had a thirty horse massy ferguson um and so it took weeks of preparing it and getting it ready and uh we I. You know, if we go to some of the other parts of our farm, we have organic matter up close to six but if you go into the areas of our food plots were down around four UM. And so we had very poor soils. And with our heavy tillage for almost fifteen years, it really really drained our successful food plots and and drained organic matter to where it had to be almost perfect conditions for us to get a successful food plot. And when we realized what was occurring, when this whole no till things started hitting the those arcs and we started getting into it, we realized that what took fifteen years to accomplish was going to take a lot more years, probably double to correct what had happened. UM And so, guys in in heavy you know, you've got all kinds of top soil. You're in Iowa. You may never see that, you could tell until until and you may never see it, but at some point somebody is going to see the negative impacts of that heavy tillage. And most people aren't in those soils. The vast majority of deer hunters don't have the luxury of planting food plots in that type the soil that seemed to be endless. Most of us certain situations like this where it's rougher, poor soils. So you have to treat again, you're only as good as that, UM the food plot preparations. And if you're going in and right out of the gate destroying the soil that you're banking on helping you grow a crop, you're you're kicking yourself in the shins right out of the gate. So treat the soil with respect as a foundation to understand how it works. And that's why truthfully go back to work with mother and nature, not against it. Is we understand how soil works, the biology behind it, and we don't want to destroy it right out of the gate and then sit there. How many times have you heard I've played my food plot sow, I'm praying for rain, I'm praying for UM this to occur. It's like, yeah, because you just destroyed your soil and you just are legit sit there and bake, and now you have the only chance you have is is for rain to come within a certain period of time to make it successful. That's that's not smart. And so that's why are utilizing thatch and no till techniques to get us through tougher times UM and still have that success. So so in addition to not telling up the soul and not ripping apart all the life that's going on underneath the surface there, in addition to trying to maintain some kind of organic matter on top that thatch is there. All things, like you said, they're going to help build the foundation for your food plot. Another thing that I know helps with this is having that diversity of species that you're planting, because that's in line with nature, right, the mono culture is not a natural thing out there in the natural landscape. Um, can you guys elaborate a little bit on why you guys find diversity not just in line with nature but also so beneficial from a wildlife Habitat standpoint, and then one of you, I think maybe was Adam, you started listing some of the species that you plant. But can you give me a whole breakdown of of everything that's going to be in your fall food plot, blend or as much as you're going to share, and why each piece of that puzzle? Absolutely? Um. So when it comes to why why we try to plant diversity versus monocultures? And I know a d h D and a horrible memory, I may forget part of this answer, but here we go. When it comes to trying to avoid the monocultures. UM. For instance, soybeans a huge, hugely popular summer food plot. You plant that and it's basically you have whatever bare ground and soybeans, it's just perfect pickings for a deer to go out and stand or move through and completely overbrowse this area. But if you add diversity their species within these um, most of our plantings that deer don't eat until a certain stage. For instance, mile o or millet, they won't eat it until it produces a seed head. So that whole time you have this little bit of a protection for whatever young species is a company in that, and so deer can't over browse those food plots nearly as much. But at the same time, each species mines or uses a certain nutrient out of the soil, So they're putting roots down on the soil and mining those nutrients from deep within and bringing that back up near the surface to where the next crop once it's terminated, the next that adequately available um and so at the same time, just like nature, they all lean on each other and support each other. So some species may not like the heat nearly as much as another species, but because it's next to that species that can flourish in the heat, it can withstand it a little better because it's it's leaning on it for support. They're holding nutrients together. They have a different roots system. One may be a tap root and the other one maybe a fiber root system, to where you have this diversity all working together to create a ecosystem, if you will. Even some of some of those species are shading out the other species until those ones get browsed and then then it's basically their next in line too for their time to shine, and they're hitting that later portion of the summer um where they're more attractive and palatable. So you're not banking on one crop to do something for let's say, however many months and withstand all the things that Mother nature is gonna throw at it, whether it's bugs, whether it's disease, whether it's um when, whether it's a lack of rainfall. You have let's say ten different species, they are all working together among each other, and that all can withstand and and basically fight through those difficult times making that food plot itself attractive from April till October. That's a think about think about just the seasons that we go through. We go through spring, summer, and fall in that that span of time, and you're trying if you're playing a monoculture, not diversity within food pots. You're banking on that um that crop to be flexible with that biggest swing of temperatures and everything like that. So if you're playing diversity, you know that all those crops are gonna be able to again have their peak, have their time of attraction and basically work with each other to make that food plot out of the gate from April all the way to October just shine and attractive and beneficial, or from August to yeah, if you're planting ball and if you're plant fall. So here's the species that we typically try to include, and we tweak it every year. But these are some of our favorites. UM, and i'll list explain by plots. So we love purple top turnips. UM. We love a different type of turn up, maybe a forage turn up so it can handle browse pressure a little better than the purple cop tournup. We love radishes, whether it be a nitro or icon or go for radish. We love those um string in winter piece. UM. We love getting into some of our grains. We love cereal, rye trick, kayley oats and wheat UM. And then we also love annual clovers and we're growing very fond of the ansa and versine clovers uh and crimson clover UM. And I think that would pretty much. Harry Vetch is another one that we really like. UM. And you combine all those together and you have grasses and you have legumes and you have broad leaves, and just like nature, and you've got the big the big three types and the big three, and you can really bust up compaction, you can mind nutrients, and you can prevent erosion. Um. At the same time, if you look at each of those species, just use the cereal grains. Oats are tremendous attraction during the early fall, during that October early November time frame. UM. We and trip kayley and cereal ride and they take a little longer to get that root system established and and get where deer actually brows on it. But those are tremendous plants to have in your food plot acres for that late winter early spring when there's hardly anything else green on the landscape. UM. Then you look at radishes. They're really attractive during the early part of the season. UM. But then as you get those first heavy frost, that's when the deer can shift over and really brows on the purple top turnips and the forage turnips UM. And it kind of takes the pressure off those radishes to where they can continue making a tuber and break up the compaction. UM. Then you look at the clovers and they're gonna provide great forage midway through the fall. Um they're not doing a whole lot during the winter, but then in the spring they take off like crazy and provide more forage than almost anything you could anything else you could plant at the same time FIXATIONE, fixating on a nitrogen. It's incredible and you think about, okay, that time span again, look at it from what what that acre food plot is going through. From planting in late summer, all late till spring termination um in in mid April. That is an incredible swing of temperatures. And there's typically, let's I think that was about fourteen species or so that we plant, and at any given time early middle to late um in that in that month's swing, there there's about four species that are just getting it all together, and so each one has its peak and you you can walk out in the food plot let's say four weeks after German Nation, you're like, oh, yeah, those oats are cranking, the radishes, the terms were doing awesome. You come back in December and there's a whole another host of species. They're like, wow, they're really forging on this. And then come spring it's a whole another suite in that same plot, in that same mixture. That's like, this is incredible. This is why we do what we do, because you're working with mother nature. There's not a point that I mean, if you just planted oats the first couple, after the first couple of hard froth, you're pretty much toast and sit and idle till spring. Yeah, or weeds grow and your winter annuals start growing, and uh, I guess the analogy I would use is think of it like that. This is pretty lame. But the game red Rover Red Rover, where you all join hands and you're trying to keep the other team from once you do that with your diverse plantings, I should have used defensive linemen, shouldn't I. Um, everyone's judging here, oh man. So basically they're all supporting each other and providing they're all flourishing um to where you have something on the table to eat, something on the table to um to mind nutrients and prevent erosion from planting all the way until terming nation are all the way through the next summer. I mean, some of those those annual clovers will be green if you didn't terminate them, they'll be green all the way until almost July. Yeah, and that's the thing. You know, it sounds super complicated and really complex, but the principle is super easy. Just understand how mother nature works and complement it in the way that you choose to manage your land, and you're gonna see incredible results by doing that. It's it's not like this is anything new. It's just you know, we we've looked at these principles and said, okay, how can we compliment that in our in our strategies of managing the land, And luckily we're seeing awesome results with it. And so we're clients. So it's it's fun to see, Okay, when I really study this stuff and and do let's say nerd out on biology, I'm I'm right there where I should be, and I know that the land is healthy because of the practices and the technique. It's in the way I'm choosing to manage it. I think that's very very easy to get caught up and just the methods instead of just understand the principles the baseline and making management decisions off of principles versus those methods. So so one of the things that I when I got into the food plotting world. I was definitely found a lot like the conventional wisdom out there. And one of the things that I was always worried about with diversity with blends was that if you mash a bunch of things together, you're not going to properly. You're not gonna do things right for any one of them perfectly, so you will plant some stuff. If we're planning everything at the same time, that means nothing's planted just the right time. So I would think to myself, Okay, I would rather plant my brassicas at the perfect time to plant brassicas, and then I want to plant my oats at the perfect time to plant oats, and so to do that, I would separate them out, so I plan. In my case, I tried to achieve a small degree of diversity by putting them in the same plot, but doing strips. So I do a strip of Braska strip oats to pro brassicas. And I thought that was a way too too to get things going as optimally as possible. And you also hear the idea that if you plant blends, then you're going to be shading out certain things that should be getting sun, and then they're not going to be as beneficial as they could be. Back to conventional wisdom of why you know, industrial farmers plant monocultures, right, you get your most bang for your buck as far as the amount of production per acre. If it's all the one thing knocking out of the park and managing specifically for that for that one species, what is the argument against those concerns? Is there anything to worry about? You must have read the same article as me when I was fifteen. We we had that mindset to or I guess had read that where you don't mix cereal grains with braskas um and it was like, well, okay, that makes sense. One is try to take this nw trent and this one's trying to take it from from him, and they're just trying to steal it from each other. Um. And I think that comes down to the mindset of managing for a species and not managing for the land. Um. And think for us, if you plant it, if you went out and you planted a straight monoculture of and you stripped it out and you just tested and you said, okay, here's a straight test of purple top turnips. Here's a test of oats, here's a test wheat. Here's a test of annual clovers. You're gonna see gaps and every single one of those um plantings, the purple topped turnips, they may overbrowse it uh and so January hits and that may be just a mud strip um. The oats is going to be yellow by December and it's just gonna lay there yellow until the spring when winter annuals grow. But if you plant them, if you took all those and you mix them together, you'll see during those gaps when purple top terms maybe declining that another species in that mix, it's it's it's heyday and it's gonna shoot through and flourish. So for us, it's been years of testing those diverse blends and going there's really not a time where we're not providing something. But if we looked at the monocultures, there's a time where and it's usually a lot bigger gap of not benefiting the wildlife than when it is benefiting the wildlife. And so that's where I think for us, it was like this is this is we need to look back at the way nature was designed and nowhere in nature if it's if it's actually acting the way nature was designed that there's not diversity. And I think that you know, back to that the agricultural standpoint of planting them this way and whatever. You know, their management strategies are different from our management strategies of the food plot once it's planted, um and to they're looking at it from a harvest standpoint, whereas we're looking at it from Oh, they are going to be my on bine. I want them to be the ones. And I don't ever hear them complain as to the fact I mixed plants together because their natural browsers. There's three plus species in their diet that they can eat, and we don't ever see, you know, in nature, just one of those in the field, and they're just selecting to go that field. Um there, Every every step through our managed timber, there's something that they can eat that's different from the last step because of the diversity. That's they're no different from the food plot. And just from a hunting strategy standpoint, right, I would want to thank or throw all my chips in at one species that is gonna peak just during November. I hunt from September all the all the way to mid January here in Missouri. So why not make that food plot attractive from September all the way through January. So by mixing things all together and planting them, I can achieve that whereas a single species, I'm not achieving that or making that again, food plot acres be most attractive it can be and valuable to the property. It's kind of like economy of scale, Like it doesn't you can you can plant at the same amount in the same amount of time all the species mixed in one as you can let's say, just wheat. It doesn't take any more time, So why why not do that and make it more tract Going back to the comparison with agriculture, I think also market you've looked enough into regentative agriculture to see that the guys who are planting grain crops and using the regentative agriculture methods, they're still planting. Like, uh, one of our favorites to follows Gay Brown, and he plants corn, and then two or three days later he drills um over that planting to where he's got different species growing underneath that the corn, which are basically helping him fight weeds and still and fight erosion and really my nutrients and so I think the whole regentave agriculture and then this holistic mindset go hand in hand. It just depends on whether you're in the wildlife field or agricultural field. Yeah, it makes It makes a lot of sense. And I am I am taking the leap this year as I mentioned, so I'm not only just gonna try no till, but also going to go full diversity. Gonna be slinging all sorts of seed out there and seeing how it goes. So you have me convinced, um, you can you can join our red rob oh I mean defensive line team if you want perfect um. So, so sort of along these lines still, UM, as we're as we're talking about ways to work hand in hand with nature, as we're talking about ways to try to um, you know, take a look at ways to depart a little bit from the conventional agricultural world. Is the whole top think of herbicide. You guys have mentioned using herbicide through some of your management tasks as we've talked today. But I also know from some previous chats and stuff with Adam and reading and hearing some other things that you do have some concerns or some thoughts around how we use herbicides and what kind of impacts that may or may not have. Can can one of you just kind of give me the the Landing Legacy perspective on herbicide use and then what that means to how you use it. Yeah, well we can send them back to your your article too and say if you want to hear more, there we go. That's kind of our mindset is always tried to, as we said, replicate nature and do what nature design. And obviously herbicides aren't something that was happy presettlement, but at the same time, neither were invasive species or non natives. So that's where we really come into using the herbicides. Like old field management requires herbicide. You if you have a turf grass it's non native. Tillage is not going to kill it. Heavy mowage is not going mowing is not going to kill it. Herbside, a one time application can kill it. I guess our biggest concern um with her besides is the and and we're not I mean, I'd hate to say that we're jumping up and down saying ban all herbside, but we definitely want to think about our our use of it and try to limit it as much as possible, not because I guess we're we're concerned and Matt and I go out of spray and has Matt suits, But more of it just doesn't. It's just not a natural thing. We can find other ways to to replicate nature and still reach our goals, But when it comes to food plot usage, our food plots and herbicide, I guess our biggest fear and concerned where we always get is the idea of spraining herbicide or chemical on a plant that then that you spray it in the day and then a group of deer moving during the night and then they eat that forage that you've coated in a herbicide, and then you turn around and and go and kill them in a few months, and raises some concerns for us on I think there's not enough known about it to say, yeah, your knee, and so because of that unknown side of it, we're just going to limit it as much as possible. Yeah, there's there's definitely instances where that's the best practice and you're gonna spend your rules trying to do anything else. And when we apply it, we try and find the scenarios where it's a one time application. You're done and you walk away, and then you choose to use other techniques like prescribed fire then to manage that site like old fields or let's say you have a wood lot that's just overgrown with bush honeysuckle. You go in do a cut stump treatment and you're simply applying an herbicide to the ump itself. It's not just this massive um broad spectrum just slinging her beside everywhere. It's very specific and that's okay. And then again you're gonna follow up that that wood lot management with prescribed fire and keep everything else at bay. So that's the way we prefer to utilize it um and not just go overboard and know why you're doing it how a direct reason um and limited. It's it's uh, it's usage. I mean like like clover plots, how many how many people are utilizing like a two four D b or or a clepodym um And it's like go in and you could you could simply just spot spray those areas you're orm and you're coverage you know, with a broad spectrum you're covering a lot of the food plot anyhow, just just going and spot treat those areas and and just target those clumps of grasses um or those clumps of broadly in the clover instead of covering the entire acre. Do you might you might limit it down tore feet of herbside versus entire acre. Just your simple things like that. It goes a long way. So what if someone's listening and they for whatever reason, if if it's some of the things you've discussed, or they have other apprehensions around herbicide you use. And there's a lot of people that want to really go organic with the stuff they eat, and so they're thinking, Okay, if I want to be really focused on organic produce at the same time, be great if the food plots I'm putting out there for the deer that I hope to eat our quote unquote organic as well. There's there's folks that really want to prioritize that kind of thing. If we want to do an herbicide free food plot, which I know you guys have been experimenting with, um, how would someone go about adjusting the food plot regiment you've discussed. How do you adjust that to become a food or an herbicide free food plot quote apply herbside. I don't mean that's like at the at the joke, but but truthfully, in this year's experiment, it was, okay, here's a fall planting. It's now mid May, it's a found two ft tall, and and and that fall planting is all annual based, So we're just gonna set the drill in it and drive and plant the whole thing. And these annuals are all going to mature, and that's going to kind of dry up, trivel up, and then the food plot itself is going to grow up amongst all of this vegetation. So instead of utilizing that thatch and laying it on the ground, you're simply letting it stay standing, and then your food plot and the spring grows up amongst it, and you haven't applied in your herbside. I think in simple terms, what you really I guess best advice for trying to do an organic food plot with the diversity UM and then also a plant or plants growing year round UM. Any time you leave bare ground or you leave an area where you haven't put a plant to grow, whether it be a cool season or warm season, nature will put something there and so and it could be a noxious weet. So if you're putting a species down, so in the fall, you plant something. In the spring, you plant something to where you keep that soil covered, you keep something growing year round, but you pick that's going to be your best way of avoiding having to add her beside to kill noxious wheat. Yeah, that makes that makes sense. So we're doing all these things. Let's say we we've prioritized diversity. We are trying to find ways to minimize our herbicide use or at least be thoughtful about how we're doing that. Um, we're making sure to take advantage of natural systems to to get the best out of the soil, to get the best out of the native landscape. Now we're getting into let's say this time period August hunting season is a month or two months away. Um, what are some of the other things that folks can be doing And let's stay focused on the food plat side of things for a moment. Here, are there any other things that we could be doing to enhance our process? Um, Like, for example, I know one thing you guys talk about is feathering edges. Can you talk about that or anything else that we can be doing to take things to the next level. I think, oh yeah, for sure. There's so one thing that we see a lot, and especially in crop country, is the dedication to a grain uh saying Okay, this field is going to be standing corn or standing beans during the late season, it's gonna be money. Well, that most likely will be. There's a reason guys are planting those. But at the same time, as soon as season's over, you have high gar density. At some point, all that food is going to be consumed and you're gonna have stubble or you're gonna mow it down, and it's just gonna be laying there vacant and opening up the window for needs to grow, especially noxious weeds. So adding species cover crops to those standing grand fields or standing bean fields, food plots, whatever it is to get to get something growing there. Um. At the same time, if you do have a mild winter, you've got a very very productive um food plot in case they're not eating the standing grain. UM. And I think the misconception is planting season is late April early May or depending on your area. For our area in Midwest, that's that's what it is. You say, late April early May, that's spring planting and August or early September is your fault planting. But their species like cereal ryan wheat, that you can plant them up until it's four it's forty degrees um soil soil temperature, and so you could wait until those leaves fall off the soybeans and then broadcast your cereal Ryan there and if you get the appropriate amount of rain, you're gonna have a great cover crop. Um. So if you do have a mild winterer, deer are still coming to that area. That thing um. Another big thing we recommend is adding diversity to clover plots um and and so I think a lot of times we plant clover plots and we may add wheat as a as a companion or a nurse crop in the first year, but year four five we really start fighting weeds. And a big the big reason for that is because you plan to the legum, which is fixating niagen every growing season is putting nirogen out. Over time, nature is replacing that trying to get something to equal that soil out and use that nitrogen. So adding taking it upon ourselves to say, I want to pick what's gonna grow in my clover plot. Add that wheat, add those turn ups or add that chickory to your clover plots or alph alfa um to where you have a speed these that's tapping into that nitrogen source and flourishing, and now you're providing more forage and not letting nature throw a noxious lead out there for you. You can do the same thing in the spring, but since we're focusing on the fall, that would be my two biggest points for for this this fall planting season is adding diversity to your grain fields through just broadcasting, and then also adding diversity to your clover plots. And like you said, there, Mark, you know you can go in right now, chainsaw and feather the edge of some of these food plots and really begin to steer some deer closer to the stand. Maybe they're coming out between you, let's say thirty and fifty yards away from your story or maybe your observations from last year from the stand. You saw that and you want you want them all to come out at thirty yards. Well, feather the edge, lay some trees parallel to the edge of the field and kind of create a living fence, a border, um something that's going to push them closer to the stand and just increase your odds of having deer come within boat range. But you can do that around lots of food plots and really, um, really increase your odds. And that can be done. July, it can be done. August can be done the first of September. Um. You know, trees fall down, branches fall tops, come out of trees. I'll it's not like it's this massive disturbance that of deer. Just stop and never enter or turnaround and never come back even close to deer season. You know, cut it down, walk away and then let let the deer kind of swing in closer to your boat. Stands simple, Yeah, And lots of times just those little things though that are relatively simple, that can make all the difference. Right. It's being thoughtful about every little piece you can put in the puzzle in place, which is why I geek out about this stuff so much myself. Yeah. I think a big part of our learning and what we share today is learning from our own mistakes. And for years we focused on maximizing food plots and trying to create food plots, and then it was like we had the best looking food plot in the world, but they still come out on the other end. And I can't. I can't shoot them. And so adding betting areas or a little clear cuts betting thickets and then edge feathering is like, well, this is almost too easy to create and steer dear where we want them. So so with all this in mind, and maybe you've already maybe you've already given me your answer, but if you were to have to point your finger at the conventional wisdom out there, whatever it might be that most frustrates you, or that you wish you could just like snap your fingers or wave your magic wand um, and it would change. What's that one thing for each of you that you wish you could could just snap people out of it right now? And it could be something we already talked about. You can reiterate it if you want it, or something new. Mm hmm. That is such a good question, and I'm all scared to answer. You're gonna be good. Uh, it's really man, that's really hard. I was not expecting that question. But there's I almost this might make you mad, but it's a little bit of a I just don't want the prioritizing the little things. Um. And I know that's a blanket statement, but I'll give you an example, I see, let's take food plots for example, and I love food plots, I'll say that forever, but food plots most guys, I want everybody listening to think about how many acres your overall farm is, and then how many acres is the food plot, and then think about how much time you spend Whenever you look at a full year twelve months and you say, how much time did I spend here here, here, here here? Overall in our experience, we see more time spent on food plots and around food plots, and it's still is less than five percent of the overall ratio of land. And I think seeing people prioritize on my newt tiniest of things, but putting all their eggs in that basket, to me, it's just like Michael Jordan goes out and he spends all practice, all the entire practice, shooting fadeaways in the corners, buzzer beaters. That was a very small part of his game, but he's focuses his entire time working on that shot. It's the same thing we see with managing the landscape of I'm going to focus on food plots, trail cameras and and right around my food plots one of my just the biggest thing that that's kind of just irks me, I guess and I'll say yes, agree to Adams, of course, because we see things very similarly and and and for me, it is timber management or the lack thereof. So not focusing on the fact that your property is dominated by timber and you sit back and don't do anything. And we go to properties all the time all across the country that are unmanaged. There's um incredible brows lines through the timber um, there's invasive species coming in the timber, and a lot of people are very fearful for cutting or harvesting timber. And I can understand stand that, but at the same time, don't don't tell me that you want to make improvements to your farm and then not address the largest portion of your farm. There's there's ways to educate yourself on timber management um, and there's ways to get things done in timber that doesn't require a timber harvest um. You know, aesthetics oftentimes play a big role into that. And again we kind of have to go back and say, what are you what are your goals for this property? And aesthetics usually isn't the top end. It's I want to kill bigger, better, more dear, and so to achieve that, though, we have to address of your property that's timber and increasing because most times close candy force isound digestible forage a year that deal were consumed, and why not increase that and make some of the young forest and now you're producing thousand pounds of digestible forage and it's better cover. It makes no sense to me, but oftentimes it's like the forgotten aspect of management is timber management. Yeah, and I'll add to that by making a little plug if you're wanting to learn more about that topic. We did a whole episode with a couple of guys from q DM a about for stree for deer hunters, and there's some really interesting in the weeds type content that we dive into on that side of things when it comes to timber stand management um that we don't have time to get into today, but highly recommend checking that out too. And since we do need to wrap it up and on this kind of line of thinking with resources, if you guys could leave our listeners with one recommended resource each for if people are listening to this and are just intrigued to learn more about any of these topics or want to learn more about these ideas, or how you've been inspired to think about habitat management in this more holistic way, in this more regenerative, in sync in line with nature kind of way. Are there any things that inspired you or that you would recommend other people look to to learn more um that might be helpful for folks. I always enjoy, I guess on trying to understand the natural landscape. It always kind of goes back to that presettlement, pre European settlement, and so I really enjoy And unfortunately there's not just one, but for me and I know you like books to market. It's fortunately because you can read journals of explorers all across the country, and that has been a huge part of what Matt and I study and research and look at because if you if you even read one of them, chances are you're gonna understand that what they saw is not what we see today. But at the same time, they see everything from tons of deer, elk bison, to prairie chickens or grouse um. And you just automatically just reading one of those journals will say, man, that was a much more productive landscape and things have changed, and so for us it's always been how do we get that back? And my favorite will always be the Lewis and Clark journals, um, just because of the details. And then then the vast area that they covered and if you listen to their or read their journals, you're gonna see that the landscape was full of shrubs, grasses, and tons of animals and um, it definitely is like we need to really look at our landscape because there was way more animals than what we had today, and yet there wasn't food plots or hinge cuts or edge feathering. Thereon was prescribed fire and grazing, and so that's a big part of what we look at. Yeah, I'm gonna have a kind of a unique answer here, but it's gonna hopefully challenge the listeners. And there's not a lot of great resources out there for this type of thinking, specifically the hunting outdoor world. So I want to put the pressure on everyone listening saying everyone goes to um, let's say your property. Every couple of weekends, we go to public ground and you spend a lot of time in the tree during the fall. And I guess my charge is you'd be your own person to think critically about your observations that you're seeing. Don't just sit in the stand and look on your phone and play on your phone. Look and see what's happening and occurring around you, and and hopefully that's going to allow you to better understand how let's say a food chain works. Let's say, how, um, you know a timber a timber stand is going to progress over time. Maybe you planted an area for a long time, or how go check out and see if if the state or or the force your service, has done some prescribed fire in an area. Go out there, make observations and be critical um of those observations. Don't just take it in and keep driving or go back to playing on your phone. Really look around you as to what's happening. There's tons and tons of clues and things that you can see just in the natural world that I think after hearing this and hopefully adopting and changing a little bit of a mindset, that a lot of things will begin to click for people. So of course, go and read, um hopefully listen to you know this podcast and others and begin to just honestly adopt a mindset and then I think your eyes are going to be able to see things differently and you understand how the natural world works better if you go into let's say, the next time you're in the woods, with a little bit different of a mindset and try and do things differently. Yeah, it's a it's a great suggestion. And if people want to find more resources from you guys, which I know there's a lot you guys are producing a lot of great content, where would you recommend folks go to connect with you to to learn more from you too? Specifically? I appreciate that. Of course, we do too podcasts a week over on Sportsman's Nation, and that's just laying the legacy. If they search us on iTunes, they'll find us. We're also starting to put out more videos. Um, they're not shoot I'm the one producing them, so they're not highly produced, they're not cinematic, but they have the information and tidbits that we talked about on the podcast, and we have some upland consultants as well, and so we're all the time dropping new videos to show people exactly what it is we're talking about. Um, So it just searched land of Legacy there and then you're consulting business, they can find your website just through Google Search. Yeah yeah, land A Legacy dot tv and uh we should be there and and or they can just shoot us a message on social media land A Legacy either Instagram or Facebook or email at info at landing Legacy dot tv. Perfect. Lots of wayte compact us and we're happy to help anybody. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you guys helping us out here today sharing a lot of helpful information. Um. Like I said, I've enjoyed consuming a lot of your content and getting a chat with you guys now just reiterates um, what I've found to be true, which is that you guys are are doing a great service bringing a slightly different perspective to people to the table. And I think it's an important one and I think a lot of us will benefit from it moving forward. So thank you for that, Thanks to your time, and uh we should chat again soon. Absolutely, thanks for having us. Thanks. Mark really appreciate it and that's gonna do it. So thank you for listening. Hopefully you were inspired to look at your habits had management projects. Maybe in the new light now, maybe try some new things, maybe go against the grain just a little bit and try one of these new ideas. I certainly will, and if you do, to let me know. I'm really curious to hear how your new management efforts go this year. So thank you all for listening. Appreciate you being a part of this and until next time, stay wired time

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