00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan in this episode number two and seventy and today in the show, we're talking whitetail habitat management with Tom James, an Indian hunter land specialist, habitat consultant, and the inventor of the Ferminator. All right, folks, welcome to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. And as I mentioned, today's guest is Tom James, and I'm gonna say right off the top, I really really enjoyed chatting with Tom. Tom is currently a white tail properties land specialist, and he's a habitat consultant, and he films and shares his hunts for an online show called The Management Advantage. And he also invented one of the most popular food plot implements of all time, kind of one of those all in one food plot implements, called the Ferminator. But more than all of that, I think something that really comes through in our conversations. He's just a guy who really really really loves dear and working on properties to improve wildlife habitat and hunting opportunities, and his passion just oozes through every word he says, and it's a lot of fun to be a part of, not to mention, of course, the the expertise that it brings to bear too. So, as you guys likely know, I am personally fascinated by this kind of stuff habitat work and management and improvement. But I'm also really into the absolute completely opposite form of hunting, which is public land hunting and d I y trips across the country and that kind of thing. And I've been pretty fortunate to be able to have the ability to go and do both of these kinds of hunting just about every year. Um. Inasmuch as I just enjoy that, I also firmly believe that this diversity and experiences it's helped make me a better hunter, regardless of even just the actual hunting. I think just learning about these different styles of hunting and these different aspects of knowledge about deer and what dear need and what dear want, and how dear use habitat, how dear you know, or on the opposite side, how to find highly pressured deer in public land, how to set up on deer without being a minipal habitat, All those different facets of this this thing that we love related deer hunting, it all helps. I think it all has has helped make me a more well rounded hunter. And I do think that these these diverse topics can help you too, regardless of what style of hunting and you do. Most I think there's something we learned from all of these things. Um So in today's example, you know, with Tom, we dive into some really interesting things about you know, how dear relate to tim or what deer need from cover um and on the side of things that comes to you know, if you actually want to own a small piece of ground someday or get a small lease someday. Um Man. The topics we cover this one are really, really really about relevant stuff like, you know, how to price out land, how to find land and determine how much it's worth, how to determine what you should actually try offering, what's a fair price. We get into some really interesting things about old field type habitat, what dear need from early successional habitat, how to improve fields, how to build cover out of nothing, um how to manage timber, how to make money from timber um. And then of course you know, we talked food too, which is something that we we use white tailed guys and girls usually let's talk about. So it's just Um, it was just a really enjoyable conversation, one of the better habitat conversations that I've had in a long time. And uh, I think you guys really enjoy it. So probably without me rambling on any further about how much you're enjoy the show, we should probably just get to the show so you can enjoy it. So let's take a quick break and then we'll chat with Tom James. All right, when they now on the line, is Tom James, Welcome to the showtime. Hey Mark, glad to be with you today. Yeah, thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm looking forward to this chat I as well. I I appreciate you reaching out to me that we're really busy right now with with land activity, which is great. We're getting close to spring, so I had to make sure I blocked out some time for you because it's been a crazy few weeks for us here. But um, things are well in the land world right now. Yeah, I guess that's a good problem to have, being being so busy with things at this time. And I'm glad that you were able to carver a little of time because for at least a year now, maybe longer than that, I've had you. I kind of keep a running list unbeknownst to people, maybe the ears the ears start ringing every once a while because I'm thinking about them or typing up their name. But I had this running list of folks that I think would be really interesting to talk to on the podcast. And You've been on the list for at least a year. UM finally made the reached out to you and made it happen. So I found. I can't remember when I first you came on my radar for but you you popped up with a big flashing red light for me maybe a year and a half ago or so when my colleagues Spenser interviewed you for one of our short little white tail properties segments that we run most episodes, and um and just like a minute long segment. I just thought what you had to say was was so compelling and interesting. I was like, this is the guy I want to pick his brain in more detail about how you approach managing properties, hunting white tails, managing white tails, all that kind of stuff that we love to do. It seems like you've got just a wealth of experience and kind of selfishly very relevant experience to me because I'm down in southern Michigan and you're in central Indiana, right, Yeah, so we're kind of in the same kind of neck of the woods. And uh, I'm I'm interested to see how you're doing these things, So correct me if I'm wrong or from missing anything here, Tom, But you are a white tail properties land specialist, you do habitat consulting work, uh, you film uh for the management advantage, and you also invented the ferminator. How do you have time to do anything else with all these different projects you've been up to? Good question. I guess I'm just wired that way. I'm a restless sort of a person. So if I'm sitting around and nothing's happening, most people would call that a positive, you know, being able to relax and just kill for a little bit. But that's never been me. I'm just a go getter, constantly motivated, and I feel there's a self worth issue with me. It sounds funny, but some people may struggle with that too. If I'm not being productive and feeling like I'm creating something, I sort of start getting down on myself. I've always been that way. Yeah, I get that. So, so can you give us the the cliff notes version of how you got to this point, um, like, how you got involved with things here on the not just the hunting side of things, but how you transformed your love for hunting into you know, what seems to be now a thriving career. Yeah. And it's all really been just sort of by default. You know, I didn't really seek out any of this. It just fell in place as time progressed by one opportunity led to another to another. And you know, I look at that as sort of I don't think anything happens for by accident. I should say everything happens for a reason in people's lives, good and bad, and um, you know, I don't want to bore you with too long of the story. But going back to I was a young boy, my folks moved out to the current area that I live in rural Hancock County, Indiana, which is nothing but really cornfields and soybean fields and patch woods and ditches. But It was a whole new world exposed to me as a young boy that was fifth grade, moving from near East side, Indianapolis in a suburban neighborhood out to wide open fields and little woodlots. And my mom would just open the door and let me, you know, back. And this was back in the seventies where things aren't as they may have been, but it didn't didn't seem like um. People were as as worried about what would happened to their children as you are now. And I would be just going days at days, hours at a time every day during the summer, and then after school would be for school. I picked up small game hunting, rabbit hunting, squirrel hunting. My dad gave me my first give me twenty two rifle when I was a pretty young boy, because he trusted me and respected me UM, And I was real careful and I proved myself to him. UM, So I was constantly roman. I think one of the things that really setuate me into being a true outdoorsman was the ability to run a trap line. As a young boy, I was waiting creeks and setting connabt traps for muskrats and and eventually worked my way up to catching mink and raccoons, and then eventually as I got a little bit older, learned how to catch Now this is back in the day mark when we didn't have cayotes. I'm dating myself a little bit, but red fox was was the prime predatory target around here. And in a good red fox in those days, back when the fur market was really booming, was worth sixty to seventy dollars, so that was pretty cool, you know, in muskrats were eight to ten dollars a piece. And here I was, at six seventh grade boy running traps in the morning on a high the three wheeler that was back before the three wheelers were um considered dangerous, and I'd get up in the dark and go run traps, and then again in the afternoon when I got out of school. So that really just solidified my passion just to be out there all the time, you know, between small game hunting and trapping. But it wasn't until I got into college. I went to Purdue and I started in to uh actually started in pre veterinary medicine school, but just basically taking prerequisites. But when I found out how difficult that school is to even have a shot at I decided to change my majors to wildlife biology wildlife management. And there's another addition to that story a little bit later. But um, I met some really neat guys there at school and and uh obviously guys from all over the country and all over the Midwest, and was able to, through some relationships be introduced to I guess be introduced. I was actually given an opportunity to turkey hunt on some some ground in seven Indiana where turkeys weren't anywhere, you know, near me here at the time, and some Indiana, and um I I drove and did some turkey hunts and drove up to northern Indiana to some buddies that I when you went to Purdue with, and we're experiencing different aspects of learning the bow hunt. This is gonna crack you up. But I couldn't afford a bow. So my girlfriend's brother at the time let me borrow an old Indian bow Indian brand name bow. I'm not even sure. I mean, it was just probably like a pound kind of resembled a smaller version of the white tail hunter the white tail from bear archery, and uh, three illuminum arrows of different shaft sizes and lengths and different color fledgings. And I was shooting with a finger tab and that's that's what my buddy had laying around, you know, as a spare, and I shot it and I got pretty proficient with it. And the very first this was in rural northeast northwest suburbia of Indianapolis, Carmel Arry, Hamilton's County, and there was some woodlots up in there that helps the deer, and which none were around my home where I lived. But it was interesting to drive the back roads in the evening and see some deer out in the field feeding. And my girlfriend's brother had some connections, and one thing led to another. We got permission on a couple of those little farms, and one morning we walked in this particular day and I'm holding that Indian bow in one hand and clutching the three arrows with lost on grain broadheads and loosely in my other hand, and walked in the dark and found a tree that I could climb and straddle a limb basically legs dangling off of a limb about twenty ft up in the air. And found a branch overhead that I could rest two of the three arrows on and knocked an arrow. As as luck would have it, an hour or two later, a young year and a half old six point buck made the mistake of coming within a bow range of me, and I shot my very first deer. And that kind of a scenario, without a stand, without an without ever unorthodox equipment, but absolutely hooked me one from that moment in deer hunting, so that that that was just everything is just a building block, you know, one thing led to another led to another. I continued to trap all through college and eventually made some other relationships. My my my wife, was a dear friend from high school, but we had gone our separate ways and I was off to college. But I came home from my my cousin's wedding and I saw Laura, who would soon be my wife. But we that was the night we sort of re clicked and started going out again. Um, but right before we got married, one of her best friends from school was related to some folks that live out in west central Indiana, and she had told me a couple of times about they've got this really awesome farm and they've got deer and turkeys, and of course you know how guys are like perking up and listening, Hey, uh hey, can you make an introduction to me for me on that? And uh, actually that's how it happened when I really first got exposed to just incredible deer hunting properties and habitat. Was that that connection and back when a handshake and it's just good permission was granted to you through being somebody that they sat down and interviewed me kind of. I went to their farm and stood around in the shop with these these these men and their father. And I'm embarrassed to say, but looking back, I was here. This was early nineties, and I had a mullet. I drove my wife's car out there, and they're probably, you know, here, these farmers looking at this young punk. And but they were kind enough to give me an opportunity and I never, I never, um took that for granted. I wrote them letters every Christmas and took them gifts and thanked them because it was really important and special to me. It meant a lot. And um, those were the years I really made leaps and bounds and my my hunting success and understanding of reading dear sign and understanding properties and lay out intopography and help bux. You know, that's we're talking over a twenty year period of that. Yeah. But as I got to a point where I felt it finally felt like I could afford something. Um, maybe not by myself, but I I just had that itch. I had to I had to be able to call something my own. Um. I even tried to buy one of the farm fields that the small farm that I primarily hunted those farmers, and they they politely told me they didn't have any interest in selling it. But I had to try. And I watched the newspaper every Sunday in the classified and would open it up as soon as it arrived and run through there and look and see if I could find anything out in that county. That's really where I wanted to target. And one day there was a little I mean, I bet you well, I can probably recite the ad. It's at fifty seven point four eight acres deer and turkey glower, one acre pond, possible contract and uh man, and the price was a thousand dollars an acre, is right now? Was that a good price at the time? Absolutely? Yeah, I mean it was even it sounds low at the time, but you know, prices now are three thousand dollars easy in the same county, and um, I think the average then was fifteen eight hundred dollars, so it was part it was priced below average, and they were anxious to get it sold. But I called. I called the guy and it was a Sunday morning, and I apologize for bothering him on Sunday, and I said, could I please look at this today? And he gave me directions and I drove out there and then I called him. I was coming off the hill and there was a couple other guys walking up, you know, to look at it too, and that's just like, oh my gosh, I gotta do something now. These guys are gonna sweep it out from under me. And yeah. So I called him back and I said, is there any way that I can this off the market today? And he agreed to meet me in Indianapolis and I wrote him a earnest check from a thousand bucks to get it off the market, to get a pending. And I actually ended up buying that property with a really close personal friend of mine and he trusted me a dent. I called him on the way home and he said, Tom if you like it, and if it's as good as you say it is, let's do it. And we bought it together. So that scenario that you're talking about right there, you see this little spot, you fall in love with it right away, you feel like this this pressure of other people going to snatch it up. I gotta believe that happens to a lot of people. I can feel it happening to me. Um Is, there is there a risk though with that, because I've always tried to like so well, I guess let me take a step back. I personally am exploring a similar scenario as you laid out there. I've for a long time wanted to try to buy a small little piece to try to, you know, just to dabble in this kind of thing experience. And finally you we've we've had Dan Prez on the show and different folks who have talked over and over about how you can get a small property at a decent rate, find ways to earn some additional and come off of it and slowly build it up and someday flip it and then buy a little bit bigger property and you can kind of work your way up the ladder. Um. So it's always been like a dream for a long time of mine. Now I'm finally wondering like maybe I could, maybe I could try. So I'm starting to explore some things right now. So all these things we're gonna be talking about here, you know, selfishly, I'm hoping it's going to help me through this process if it happens. Yeah, And so so I can already see like going out and stepping on stepping on a property, it's so easy to to fall in love with it and be like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. I can envision hanging to stand here and hanging a food or putting a food plot here, and I bet you I could access right here. Um, I'm already seeing how easy it is to to get stuck on something and then never look at anything else, or become so attached to it that you're not able to look at the potential downstads or things like that. So I'm trying to like find a way to keep myself mentally in check and not fall into that temptation. But I it's probably losing battle. So I hear you exactly go ahead, and I'm finished with your question, because I've already got some pre preformed responses for you perfect so basically that I'm just kind of curious, like, what do you think about that? How should someone be thinking about that? Sounds like it kind of worked out for you, but maybe it could have been a dangerous thing to fall in love with it so quickly for other people. Is that true? Is that a concern? It is? It is true. I have seen both sides of the coin, though. I've seen properties that were just incredible, and you know, and I see a lot of properties every day, as you can imagine, and I've taken guys on properties that I would die for if I were in their shoes, and they just are They're so selective and um, las fair about it that they you know, I'll think about it and I'll talk it over, and you know, I completely agree with don't force it, don't don't create a sense of urgency if they're isn't one, Um, take your time, think it through, look at plenty of properties. Don't just settle on the very first thing that you see. However, I think there's something completely intuitive within a person if you're on a on a property and it just absolutely speaks to you and you feel a sense of my gosh, this just feels right and it feels like home to me. And you know, there might be a few negatives that you can look at and can you overcome those or can you can you contradict those negatives? Are improve them and turn them around? Um? Yeah, it's great for a guy to have a sort of a checklist to go through when looking at a piece. Does it have good access? Does it have, um, some potential openings even if it doesn't have food plot openings? Can I make some? Does it have any open ground? What? What is the surrounding pressure? Like is it in a good county that produces trophy deer or better than average? So there's a list of questions that are important to you as a hunter, as a landowner that you I would formulate and force yourself to go down through that list, because sometimes you get infatuated and you just the heck with the list. You know, I'm ready, um, But then then you could you could end up with some regrets. And the second side of that, though, is I UM, when it speaks to you and you feel right and the price is right, the prices within what the market is substantiating for you with some research, all you've checked into that. I'd say, man, I've seen guys that are just are so so cautious and so so afraid to make that jump that they've actually let some really good things and opportunities passed them by. So there is certainly a balance in there, and hopefully some of those things that I've made comment about the list and the details, um, if I may add this, I probably think the number one aspect or detail about a property that can make a great property horrible or a moderate property incredibly good is your surrounding hunting environment of your adjacent landowners. A lot of us we're talking small parcels here, you know, and and a bad neighbor or a couple of bad neighbors can make your life miserable and make you wish you'd never done it. Now, there's always the opportunity to influence those guys for the better, and you know, impact them through management, and you're sharing your success and trying to teach your friends and or your neighbors. However, they are just some that they're just this way and they're never going to change. And you know you sometimes you don't know that until you get into the situation, and it's a little bit awkward when you're checking on trying to find out information about neighbors and how they hunt. And but hopefully you've got a buddy or a contact or an agent that's representing you well, um, you know, as a white tail properties agent, we try to find that out for our buyers, because if there's a tree stand on every side of the property, you tend feed off the line facing again I'm going to tell you, you you know, and maybe maybe that's a scenario that you can that you can remedy or or mediate, but sometimes you can't. Um. But that that's probably in the Midwest, especially in some more more the populated areas of the of the not too far off a drive out of town, that's what you're going to find. Um. But when you find one that has no pressure, no hunting evidence around you, maybe you hear through the grapevine that this landowner next door doesn't allow hunting at all, that's just an I mean, that's a gold mine when you can find those kind of situations. I actually, Mark, I I just defaulted into a great, a great scenario. Um. I have an adjacent landowner that has a huge parcel next door to me, and they don't. Um, they don't take on they just let a couple of people hunt. And they've been that way all through the time that I've owned, so I've ended up with a really good, low pressure scenario next door to me. And I just, man, I can find count my lucky stars every time I go out there, because it could have been completely the hunter eighty degrees out is that? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's great that it worked out that way. And I do think that I have heard so many people talk about the importance of that of that neighborhood. And and to your point, though, it does seem tricky, like how do you, like, do you just knock on a bunch of people's doors and say, hey, I'm thinking about buying this farm, can you can you tell me what you're doing back here? Um? Yeah, it's an awkward deal. Yeah, but I guess it's something that maybe is worth doing in a lot of scenarios. Um. You mentioned one thing that I would be curious about your opinion on, which was, you know, seeing if the price of the farm was within what the market should be in that area. How would you recommend going about, you know, pricing out a farm, determining what's the fair cost breaker, etcetera for a given piece, Because I feel like if you're not within that world of real estate or understanding what kind of you know, tillable land or just non tillable land costs, all those things, like I haven't found a great resource that I can like look to this says okay in this county, this is what it should be going for in this county, etcetera. Is there anything out there way of doing this. I'm glad you asked me that. The old way for us, even as agents, was we we would have to just go to the county courthouse and go to the recorder's office, you know, and just be polite to the ladies there and and gentlemen, but ask if you can UM search into some of the recent recently sold properties, and um they can help you out if they're really busy. Sometimes that's not the highest thing on the priority list. But that was the way to go to go about asking for some reasons. Can you show me, UM, any woods fifty acres are larger in the last six months or the last couple of months that have sold, and you can get in there in a database and find some stuff that way. Recent sales are what we call comparables. You know, something that's in the same county, maybe even the same township if you can with a similar composition of habitat types. Remember tillable land and timber tracks can vary greatly in and there price from one county to the next, even one region of a county based on soil productivity. And say, for example, in the woods, your timber value, if you've got a well stocked, marketable, stand up timber, it could be a hundred of thousand dollars more than than a track down the road that's just got average or below average. But the resource I'm going to tell you about that we've just recently been introduced to within the last year is acre value dot com and it's it is a website that you can go on and and sign up a membership. I think it's well, I'm afraid if I I want to say it's less than a hundred dollars a year. Okay, Um, I may be wrong there, but it's been a while since I've signed up, so I've I've forgotten. But anyway, you can dial down to the specific area that you're looking in and you can click on either click on the field and it will show you what it's estimated value is based on many factors moisture, crop history, soil tie, soil productivity. That it will give you the n c c P I rating for a farm field which might be next door to your woods that you're looking at, and that's like a standardized index for crop production that one through a hundred. I believe is the top end is a hundred maybe not second guessing myself anyway, it'll tell you what the county average is and you can see how that particular field compared to the to the county average. But also on there is a soulds You click on a sold column and you back out and boom, you'll see all these ribbons show up with these prices, and you just start clicking on farms and it will show you. It will go back several years all the way up to current and it will show you recent sales in the area of what what properties woods and tillable and combined have sold for. And it's a super great resource for us. And we can also click on download the report and you can boom. You can hit it, send it to an email address and share it with your buddy take it to the bank. You know, there's a lot of ways you can utilize that database for your for your benefit. It um. I will tell you when you're clicking on a farm and you see you see one down the road that's you know, just say it's sold for a hundred sixty dollars and a comparable acreage right a couple of streets over a couple of county roads over sold for three d seventy five. Take a look at that, because usually those larger farms, they don't oftentimes break it down into improvements of what structures are on there. So I would just really if you see a high number or really known low number, probably tossed those out because there's gonna be a farm shop or a home or something on there that is positively influenced the price. Or you may see one that was sold from a dad to his son that is half price of what you would think it should be. So you just caution yourself to look at the lows and highs and and maybe sort of settle in an average of the middle ground, and and that'll that'll get you, guys really close. That's that's great, great advice. That's a really helpful resources. Sounds like I'm definitely have to check that out. Um. Yeah, so so chat with the neighbors doing some research like this. Um, what about when you're when you're walking a farm for the first time. Let's say it caught your eye online, or maybe you're working with an agent or specialist and they said, hey, here's what I think you should look at. Um. I mean I've talked to a lot of people, I've done a lot of this kind of thinking myself, so I know there's some basic things that you should be looking for. And you kind of touched on a lot of these earlier. You mentioned looking for possible places to plant food, plus looking at the cover, looking at possible access. Um, are there any things kind of next level that people maybe overlook or anything that you just think is so so important it's worth drilling into a little further as far as what to pay attention to when you're you know, looking at it that first time or doing some several walkthroughs trying to make a decision. Right, that's a good question, Um, sort of a thirty ft above the thing I would I would sort of base things on or at least maybe take a look at it. But of course, the record books are really good sources. You can look in, say, if my home state of Indiana, you can go into the Who's Your Record Book or the Boode and Crockett book and look at some counties that are that are notable and producing more. There's a reason for that, and that's nine times out of ten, and it's because those those areas of state have highly productive soils. Soils create growth for better plants, which ultimately create bigger anfers. Everything is based on soil productivity in the end. So if you can just if you have no idea where to start, that might be a starting point, um and then and even dial that down little, that down, a little farther to townships within the county that might be more productive. When you're looking at properties in general, like listings or right ups. Of course, it's said that the mom and pop real estate companies don't really show you anything other than one aerial photo. They don't really give you a lot of detail because just frankly, some of those folks just don't know what what the woods is different from the woods from the woods. You know, that's all the same to them. But what when we list properties and I know there's others that try to mimic this too, but they were gonna show every detail that we can that we feel is going to be important to a buyer. You know, water sources, where you park, um, is there a gate, how do you access? Is there a trail system through it? Is there a pond for fishing or other Is there a good cabin spot or a place to put a camper? Is their power down the road? UM? I think that that those are sort of baseline generalized questions. Dialing down a little bit deeper. We talked about the openings, but there's always a possibility of creating your own openings, which is what I did on my place. But timber value is a big one. And if you don't know, um what you're looking at, and you don't know that the particular agent knows what timber values are currently and what this property may offer you, it's always a good idea to take take somebody along um or or have you know, have somebody in your back pocket, a consulting force or that you can call on for advice, or maybe even take some photos of some of the trees that you're seeing that are larger, because there's there's several things to be said about timber values. And obviously it will help you create an income over a perpetual period of time if you're managing your property as a long term sustainable timber property. But there's also the advantage of converting an older stand of woods into an ideal white tail habitat, which luckily for us, includes harvesting some timber. And those two go hand in hand. So if you see a big, giant set of woods with large trees, um, a lot of people who and over that. But that's that's the worst case scenario for a great white tailed deer habitat. But man, it could create some income for you immediately and then allow you to enjoy the process of converting woods into ideal scenario for white tails for food and cover, um, but also responsibly. I mean, we could do. You know. I like to think about doing a harvest on my property every to ten years because I'm not I'm not cutting too far down into the size base. That's I've always got a new crop of of marketable trees coming on in five to ten years. UM. Those are the things to think about. Prevailing wind is a big one for me to a lot of guys have no choice but to be able to park on the west side of their woods, you know. And in here in central Indiana of the time, we have a west northwest southwest wind. And if you're parking and entering your property from the same direction every time, UM, the mature bucks know you're there before you ever even get close to the stand. In my opinion, I mean that that's an over over generalization, but you know what I mean, especially on a smaller piece, so wind direction and the ability to um have several different possibilities or or choices for points of entry is really key to to not pressuring these smaller parcels and and and having the best success and the most fun and hunting them. What was that feeling like for you when you when you pull the trigger on that first property? You tell me about that, Just it's just complete elation, you know, It's just like a dream come true. It's like winning the lottery. I don't know, I can't explain it in enough detail, but um, it's just jumping up and down, walking outside of the out of the closing company, you know, in high five, and man, it's finally happened. The very first, the very first, UM one that's really truly going to be mine. And yeah, it's a feeling I'll never forget. And I may say this, you know, I'm fifty I'll be fifty three in July. And that first piece we bought twenty three or twenty four years ago. I get the same feeling every time I open that gate and drive up there and parked the truck and get out and just you know, to look around and man, I can't believe this is mine. And there's just no no greater feeling in the world that really isn't. And unlike unlike some, I never was really interested in UM flipping and turning and getting the next I always immediately felt like, this feels so good and so right. I just want to try to add to this right here if I can over time, and luckily I was able to do somewhat um of a pretty decent edition just a few years ago. But yeah, there's no greater feeling, man, just finally getting it done and signing the papers and getting handed the keys, and the first day you go out there and the first step on it, it's just it's just it's indescribable. I can't imagine UM. And you know, you you mentioned that additional piece. He guy, I understand that you had a pretty nice scenario where a neighboring landowner was going to sell and it was kind of bordering you on two different sides. Can you tell me how that all came together? And krimin if I'm wrong, but I think I heard like it was a deal where you weren't sure you could afford it, but you thought it's kind of an opportunity that comes once in lifetime. I gotta find a way to make it happen. Like, how did that all come together? That's a great question. That that story is just loaded with twists and turns and sleepless nights and and feelings of despair. And I mean, you know, sometimes a deal comes along that you can't afford not to but you can't afford to do it either, And I was trapped in one of those scenarios. Um not to get too deep into my personal um financial situation, but I'll tell you guys that when the market crashed in No. Seven and oh eight, I was still running a full service, full time landscaping company. I had invested heavily in the Ferminator food plot implement as you mentioned, earlier that we had just created and we were really taking it and launching it to the next level. I just heavily invested in engineering and design and machining work and stockpiling product for Manifest Acturing because we just released the Ferminator Generation three, the G three model. So man, we were just looking looking at the future with just why eyes wide open. I say, we my wife and my daughters, and everything was looking great and the industry received it well. All the all the feedback that I got from clients was outstanding. Everybody was thrilled with the machine. And then everything just went crashing down UM in a matter of days. And I say that because I was still running a twentysomething year old company that was we we did full surface landscape design, installation, and maintenance here in Indianapolis, and I had a lot of big in clients that we did renewable contracts every year, and you start relying on that. That's sort of like a just a cash flow. Obviously was speeding my family and taking pay in our bills, but I was also financing and funding these these side things with that. UM. I didn't have any investors. I did everything on our own. We didn't take any money from anybody. Well, you know, my dad here and there gave me five grandten granted paid him back, But I'm talking like big, big money, you know. So, um, when when things tried up, I lost all my big accounts within a week, and a lot of the custom builders that I worked for or didn't answer the phone the next day, and we got left left to hang on a lot of payables that we never got and I had a big you know, I had a lot of employees that counted on me, and things got really really tough. Um And in to this day, I don't know that we've completely fully recovered, but we're close. So we went through a really long period of some just tough times rebuilding and trying to pay old debts down and make sure everybody, you know, just everybody deals with certain things on their own in different ways, and we we had a tough goal about about it. And this opportunity surface somewhere in the middle of all that, you know, and I knew I couldn't I couldn't go get financed for it. There was no way, I mean, I was just absolutely no way. And I was trying to be really creative and and look at. That's one thing that I've always I've always felt like if there's a way, there's a will I can, I can put the two together and make something happen. And I worked really really hard on that and I ended up I remember I was driving down to I believe it was the National Wild Turkey Federation National Convention in Tennessee, and I called um, my neighbor, and I had been dealing with her son in law, and I remember telling him, Man, I I can't believe I'm getting ready to say this, but I've tried everything I can think of, and there's just no way I can do it. I said, I really really it sickens me to say that. And I don't know, I just I guess I've come to have a piece about letting it go. And I really appreciate you letting me have this time to try to work out a way to make it happen. But it God's got out of plans, I guess, because I've've run into dead ends everywhere I've went. And I said, the only only way that I could even possibly do this because if you guys would consider giving me a short term land contract, and and I knew that wasn't their their preference. They were trying to free ups in capital for for for family reasons. And UM, I just remember hanging up the phone and just taking a big side like I just did there. And and I funny Mark, because I actually felt pretty good after some Sometimes that distress can really wear a guy out, and and it had been on me on that deal, so I remember it felt kind of good to say that, even though I was about to cry. And as it would be, he called me back um a week later and said, hey, we we've talked about this, and there's nobody else that we would rather have this than you, and we're willing to work with you on a contract. And knock on wood, thank god they did that. They did that with me. So um I was able to acquire the adjoining sixty two and a half acres. That's amazing and and that must have been a huge, huge new project and level of enjoyment to then kind of see your your property and the projects you've been working on to kind of ripple out through this new area. Right it did? Yeah, And now um now I had access to a lot of the ridges that I felt like the Bucks were betting on. Um I had access to a seventeen acre interior crop field that I knew was an evening destination field for all the white towns. You know, my my two three plots up in the timber. We're basically just um stopping points for the deer as they worked their way down to the bottoms. And we had some great success with that. But now I had a destination field that we can do some fantastic things with. And it's funny that you say that because we just now, Um, I'm ready to pull the trigger. Starting next month, I'm converting that seventeen acre field to all habitat that is still going to have some really large cove, food sources, food plot locations in the end. One's going to be corn and being rotational large eggs I say large. It's gonna be three or four acres, and then an annual field on one end, and then a clover buffer all the way around it, basically a road warm season grass mixes, big blue, Indian and switch um all through the sides, and then a center planting of late holding oak species late leaf holding oak species for a tree planning down the center of it um you know, three thousand plus trees, so I'm really excited about that because it's it's going to just take this to the next level. It's going to take a few years obviously for it to begin to take some effect, but I say three years from now, I'm going to start seeing some pretty big results. So can you walk me through why you're doing that? Because right now you've got a seven are destination food source that sounds like there was pulling a lot of deer into this area. What was the why was that not ideal? And why is the new situation better? Um, it's it's more food than they needed. Number one. Um. That may sound crazy to some people, but I think in my area where I am at, the missing component is early successional either old field type habitat of warm season grass fields that that really big thicket brushy edge. So I'm creating a thicket with my tree plannings in the middle. Um, you know, they'll have rows between them of weeds and grasses and and I will plant them in a cover crop of clovers and and sort sort of keep things at bay just to get the trees up and going. But my ideal scenario is to let that thing flush with tall grasses. Need need to waste tig grasses and forbes. And then let as the trees begin blow up and they'll they'll be in their holding leaves. I'm gonna I'm gonna mix in a decent component, a small percentage I shouldn't say large, but a small percentage of the eastern red seaters dotted throughout that just for a an evergreen component in there. Not too heavy, not too light. But I believe I'm going to be adding and providing a new habitat type that is lacking and uh and I really believe that I can hold more mature bucks on the property with you know, literally twelve or fifteen acres of just thick, dense, absolute nasty bedding cover with great foods right out you know, um a hundred yards step out of the out of the grass that that brushy old field habitats hard to beat, it is. And I'm creating those alone with the warm season grasses. And the cool thing is the clover road is going to be um sixteen to thirty two ft wide, uh six excuse me, sixteen wide all the way around the perimeter, all the way around the tree planning, and all the way around the crop where every edge touches. There will be a clover buffer road between it, and you know, for me, that's access, but it's also a firebreak, and it also doubles as a great food source. I'm going to have chickeren clover, pringer clovers, and they're combined. So when you add it all up, there's two and a half the three acres of clover just in the firebreak all the way around the field. And not to mention, you'll have a four acre ag field of standing crops. I'm going to leave the beans and corn stand every year that the deer will finish them up they won't be harvested, and a rotational cove at the other end of the field which will be annual greens and grains, just to complement what I've got going up in the timber by the way. So when you add it all up, there's gonna be I have four up there now, we'll probably have about twelve acres total in food when you add up all the woodland plots, plus the fire breaks, plus what we're going to leave standing down in the bottoms. And this area is primarily outside of the food source you've created. It's primarily the big timber is that right, big timber on the hills and large jagg fields in the bottoms and on some of the tops. So you've just got these real good traditional breaks you know of the uh. And there may be several hundred contiguous sinkers of timber in certain stands. So it's definitely not your broken woodlot situation like I have over here in east central Indiana. It's large contiguous because it's all drainage related, you know. So you've got some good topography changes, flat bottoms, nice rolling ridge hillsides, and then some flat tops. Yeah. So something you mentioned this uh, this thicket you're trying to create there in the middle of what's now a field. You talked about planning some oaks, you talked about putting in some little cedars. This is something I've always wondered about because I've wondered, you know, if you buy a little chunk that's just a wide open crop field maybe and thought to try to convert that into dear habitat, Like what would be the right way to create to create cover from the ground up? Is it you know, drilling in native grasses or warm season grasses and then that works up or something like what sounds like you're doing planting some trees. But are you? And I might have missed this because I know you mentioned I think you mentioned putting in some clover something within their UM. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But what is there anything else you're doing for the thicket part other than planting the trees or what else is going on there? Are you gonna do anything to encourage certain types of forbes and native things to come back up, or what's the strategy there. I'm really going to rely on the seat that's in the soil bank, and I think that's a pretty safe bed across us much of the range here where we deal with in the Midwest. UM. I will say the reason I mentioned throwing some cover crop, I'll probably put some winter wheat and perennial clover in the rows in between the trees, just for giving them a heads up advantage, headstart on getting a few years and above competing adjacent weeds and um, you know, other plants. I think what I'm trying to accomplish there, Obviously it's a food source, but I want to suppress some weed growth until my trees can get several years of age on them and you don't have to do that. I know of many, many successful tree plannings where all you do is throw them in the field. I say throw them, you plan them in the field, and the rows you go back occasionally with the herbicide and spray just along the trees, just in a band on either side of the tree, and whatever happens in the middle happens. And um, I'm I'm prepared. I'm a little bit more of a maintenance freak. I don't have to have meat and tidy like I used to when I was younger. So I understand and appreciate a dirty weedy thing is a good thing in many cases. But I want to give those trees a head start to not have um immediate competition with adjoining weeds that could can it be out and and shade them in rob sunlight and nutrients and moisture from them. But my my plan is marked to basically slowly just let those clover buffer strips between the rows just just go back to native ants. Um. Now, of course I'll keep an eye on that. I don't want multi floora rose and privet and and Japanese honeysuckle and things like that popping in. But if it's ragweed and brome sedge and grasses and things like that, I'm you know, I'm all four. Yes, that's what I was kind of wondering about. So it sounds like there it's important to know to kind of know your weeds, know your native forage, and then to go on there and selectively select out certain things and apply herb sides to the bad stuff and then allow the good stuff to grow. Right. Yeah, that's much much easier than trying to promote good things. Just let let mother nature happen and you can spot and select and if even if you have a little bit more of a of a blanket competition, then you anticipated you can certainly, you know, throw a two four D on it to kill everything but the grasses, or you know, the other way around, or just do if it's it's most cases you'll find that it's it's easy enough to ride the rose with a on your four wheeler or side by side with a tank sprayer and at and just spot spray and you can really, I mean, one guy can cover a lot of a lot of ground and no time flat with that. Um, I think it's worth mentioning in this time because there's obviously a lot of different trains of thought and a lot of attitudes about warm season grasses versus old deal habitat. A really good personal friend of mine and a dear friend and somebody I respect as much as anybody in this industry is Dr Craig Harper, and he talks a lot about just putting away the mower and let a field just be a field, let it see what it does, and it's and it's the as good or better habitat than anything you could plant, including warm season grasses. And I agree with Craig and a lot of levels. And I just think that there's uh the stands of warm season grasses that I've been able to grow here in Indiana. One of the things that Craig likes to point out is that if you lay out in the field of grasses that don't cannot be out, you'll lay above polcas. He says, it's extremely hot. And I can understand that. Um. And I've seen some poor plannings that haven't done as well where you the sun is beating the ground. Um. And maybe I've just been lucky and and and had some good soils to work with and some good successful plannings, because well, I've had some switched grass Indian a big blue stem plannings that you've had to take your arms out in front of you apart. It like you're walking through a curtain, you know. And there's definitely shade on the ground, and they stand up extremely well through the wintertime. They're not laid over by a heavy snow. Um. The Craig's points are exactly that he wants something that's going to provide some shade, and you want something that's going to stand well in the wintertime. UM, So look at what works well in your area, or use a combination of both. I'm trying to accomplish both with my personal property planning. But I've had such good luck with some tall natives of the right subspecies, uh, cultivars of the species that that are that are worth investigating. I think the over craig and I absolutely understand what he means. I just know that if I could show him some of my fields. And I'm not saying I'm better than anybody, but I've had some really good successful fields that I that I would love to show him or anybody that wants to see where a deer can can bet out there all day long in the heat, and as the sunsets, I see him stand up and those antlers pop up out of that grass and start walking towards you. That's a cool feeling. Do you think is there any kind of, um certain scenarios where one would be the better choice than the other, Like is is the let an old field be an old field the better just budget scenario, and then the warm season grasses is the better scenario if you've got if you want to invest or is there any way to help someone make the choice of which to try first or which is the better option? Great? Great question, And yes, um, I would say for young guys just getting started, and maybe you don't have the equipment or the you know, the deep pockets to buy Let's face it, native warm season grasses can be expensive. You know you're going to spend a couple hundred dollars possibly an aker um in those plantings, and if you've got anything, and honestly, this is another probably a point where the will be different opinions. It's really recommended to have no less than five acres of warm season grasses if you're going to do it at all, because that the whole idea is you're creating a sanctuary in a place where nobody goes. And but those small pieces that size are very effectively hunted by predators and coyotes and bobcats can walk the down wind side of a three acre or five acre planning and and no any fond that's laying out there or no any you know, so it's not going to quite give you that that size advantage of the delution effect where they get lost in the sea of grass basically so far out there that your deer safe because of the fact that just the entirety of the thing so um getting back to the point, you know, just think about it. Native seeds don't cost you anything. We're laying out there right now. They just need they just need an encouragement. One of the easiest things to do if you want to just try it for a year to see if it will work for you. Most native forbes and eat seeds are suppressed by sod thickets of grass, and if you spray a fallow field in the waning days of summer into the early days of fall, all that herbicide is going to be taken down to the route by those grasses and killed. So Now you start the spring off with a dead layer of grass, but the seed that's laying there viable, waiting for some sunlight and waiting for some water, finally gets triggered and can grow. So all you've done is spent twenty bucks on some glyphosate to spray, you know, a couple of acres of ground and a little bit of time, and you'll be really really surprised at what can happen by just letting something go on its own, and you know, hey, there's nothing wrong with give it a year and see what kind of component you have in there. Uh. Common ragweed is actually a very highly nutritious plant that grows up in the first year, and it can be a really good, fortified foot tall, shady, broadly composition of of a fallow field. But if you walk out there in July and August and it's bald knobs and open soil and very little this and very little that, then you can maybe understand that either the seed bank is lacking, or maybe you had also had in decent growing season not enough moisture, maybe the soil nutrients are poor there. But at least it will tell you in giving indication of what you might decide to do the following year. Yeah, Now can you explain to me the rationale for the timing of your herbside application? Why not UM spray you know, first thing the spring, when everything's just starting to grow again, so you could have a stand of new native vegetation that first fall. Well, I think that the idea that we're trying to get past is we want our our forbes and broad leaves to be dormant and and going into dormancy or gone. So the tops are drying down, but the cool season grasses are very liable and they are flushing excuse me, they're sucking nutrients to the route. And the difference between that and the springtime is actually is think about a tree, like a maple tree. The sap starts flowing up, you just get so much better of a of a herbicide intake if you're if you're catching that plant as it's trying to store nutrients going into dormancy, and you're just going to get us so much more of an effective kill. So um, But the timing is critical because you don't want to spray if you still probably what I mean waning days of summer fall. We want the we want your broad leaf wheats and forms to be dried up and brown and the grad This could be November, by the way, depending on where you're at in the Midwest. Um, you know our cool season, we're still mowing grass sometimes here in Indiana, and you know before Thanksgiving that that you want to catch it at the very end of the growing season, when that grass is still green, hasn't been frost killed or um frost let not say killed, but frost um dormant, you know, gone dormant because of the cooling temperatures. A couple light frost won't do it. It's going to be a more of a freeze that sets that button to where it tells the plant Okay, it's time to go go to sleep. It's so so man, this is this is all stuff that's very interesting to me right now as I'm thinking through different places I've been looking at UM and and very helpful too, because I think that you see a lot of properties where UM to an untrained eye, which I would say when it comes to identifying my my grasses and and cool season grasses, warm seas and grasses, various forbs and weeds and different things of that I'm not good at identifying those yet to to mine untrained eye. I can look at a place and I see scattered cedar trees, and I see some nice I see grasses laying down right now, and I'm thinking, oh, man, I bet you this is great, all this grassy habitat and these scattered trees and everything. But it's probably some of those low quality grasses that you mentioned, some kind of brome or whatever it is that's very low quality. And if right now it's all laid very flat to the ground, that's another indication it's not the best stuff, right, um. Correct. So there's ways that you can, as you just said, with herbicide, I could probably improve that composition through a little bit of smart management versus just letting what's probably a non native grass. Probably what's in there right now anyways, Right, well, it's probably a native grass if it's tall and has that that whispy look like a very common. Um. Rough field grasses is broom sedge, that's really really common. But we're talking about the carpet grasses, you know, like your tall fescues with Kentucky thirty one, which is the stuff that the old cattle farmers used to plan everywhere it has a broad green, wide grass blades. If it comes up in your yard it looks ugly. You see that clumpy grass out there, that that is a that is a preennial grass, and it's a sod forming, thicket forming grass that just outcompete everything. So the taller grasses, even if it's a knee high like a saidge or something in that family, those aren't necessarily they're more than likely natives, but they're not necessarily a bad thing. But they make a good very very very importantly, they make a part a component of what would be a good stand um. So if those things are popping up here and there, they're they're they're just getting an opportunity to poke through some sunlight and trying to grow um mark on that. There's a couple other methods that we didn't touch yet when it talks about when we want to talk about possibly letting an old field do its thing, and that's running a disk through it um a disk or fire, but by scarifying the soil. A real common practice in a lot of wildlife management plans is to do what's called strip disking, where you just run a disc through the soil and disturb and just basically free up some uh seeds that are waiting there for an opportunity to grow, and that could be in conjunction right after a burn excuse me, a burnt down what I meant to say, when you kill some things with herbicide. Um, sometimes people will just run a disk through a green fallow field and and um springtime. Honestly, you know, there's a there's a difference between getting a better standup forbes and encouraging more grasses to grow bye bye when you disk it, either in the spring or in the fall. And I would say either as good, you know, and you're gonna get You're gonna get results either way. It's some more or less a timing thing for when when you have the ability to get in there and not interfere with with other parts of your your habitat plan or your hunting. You know, sometimes guys don't want to be in their running a tractor around spraying and disking when it's when they want to be um leaving their sanctuaries alone for but for their deer to just to have peace. So um, springtime is always a good time to be doing some projects like this. But that spraying method about killing your sod right before it goes dormant. And everybody wants to be deer hunting in November, but that could be well worth it for the following year. Yeah, so so doing the tim irviside application. That's one way you mentioned the strip skiing. UM. Something I've heard Dr Craig Harper talk a lot about UM is not mowing. A lot of people like to mow their stuff. Can you explain why that is that that folks that mowing might not be the best option for resetting a field or working on a field. Well, it's a lot of people. I think Craig's Craig's um. Everybody laughs when he talks about this during his speeches and and it's like, there's time to go fire up a tractor just to go mow the field. And it'll be why why do you why do you want to do that? Why? Well, like nothing else to do, it might as well mow. Um. We're just so ingrained to have our properties looking like like yards and uh, it's in direct competition with what a wildlife manager UM should be doing. There was absolutely no reason to mow a field down when you're trying to do early successional growth. Um, I you're just you're basically resetting the plants. You're cutting them off and having him start the life cycle all over again. Um. Now, that's that's one thing to be talking about that in a food plot situation, when you're creating new growth on clover or alfalfa, that the high protein comes up. But we're really kind of comparing apples and oranges here. If you're trying to grow some structure with some so basically you know, food and cover together. Where you've got a mixed field of grasses and forms and weeds, beneficial weeds don't break out the more. Let let them get some size to them because you're you're you're you're trying to create hand and glove cover and food at the same time. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong here. But you know, it's it's easy when guys like us start talking about these things. It's really easy to get so focused on white tails because obviously we love them so much. They they take up so much of our mind space as we're we're thinking about and planning all these things around our deer hunting. Um, but new or old field growth or whatever it might be building early successional habitat that really benefits all sorts of other wildlife too. Like if we look at what we're doing on a property not as just creating a better deer hunting situation, but also managing the entire you know, wildlife population, trying to benefit things that are at our higher level, Isn't this one of the best ways to do that? And I will say now is a good time to point out if there's if we're odds with anything with a multi species beneficial planning, it maybe going for the densest, tallest, warm season grass planning you can find. And I'm guilty of that because some of well, my property number one, number one goal for me is is thick, nasty, gnarly deer bedding habitat um. Yeah, it's true, big blue Indian and switch that the big three are bunch grasses, which means if you got down on your hands and knees and crawled through a field, you're going to have a clump here fifteen inches over here as a clump, twelve inches over there as a clump. So you have these little runways and tunnels that small game can utilize. But in all honestly, it's not quite as friendly user friendly to say quail. Um. Now, turkeys will get in there around the edges and nest in that. Quail like a little bit more of a uh to to have the ability to fly up out of that. They tend to get a little bit too bogged down and the really tall grasses. So um. Multiple species benefit probably the most from an old field habitat that's managed correctly, um and then reset according to when it's when it starts to mature, it turns into saplings, which turns into young you know, young forests, and on down the road, on down the line. But warm season grasses can be tailored in their mixes and blends to be you throw in a few short grasses in there as well. You throw in some some forbes that have some seed component to them when they mature that are known for seeds that are beneficial, like partridge p is an excellent one for for quail. And you can, depending on what your objective is, you can you can tailor a warm season grass season grass planning to be sort of full spectrum and be of the law of averages benefit everything. Um. And I just I reserved revert back to that explanation for me using the big three in a in a tight dense planting is is just strictly for nasty buckbetting habitat. Yeah, and it definitely seems like there's a place, there's a time and place for everything, right and um and and kind of speaking back to the deer side of things though, and and this probably benefits a lot of other things too. But when we're talking cover, we've we've spent a lot of time on talking about fields, either converting a field, an old crop field into early successional habitat, or managing a field that's already there. Um, what about the other big section of your property and a big section of some of the places I've looked at personally that are currently mature timber, big timber. Um, I know from a video I watched of yours from a handful of years ago. Back to this, uh, this new property that you picked up, the adjacent farm that to increct me if I'm Ron's but I believe you looked at timber harvest on that property is a way to help supplement some of your help supplement income and help pay for some of that. Maybe, um, can you talk a little bit about how we should be thinking about you know, finding the right way of using some kind of timber harvest or management to a benefit wildlife and to be maybe help with the economics of the whole deal. Absolutely, in timber there's really only a couple three, you know, you can count on one hand. Let's put that way practices that ultimately are going to be management strategies that you can and they all they all revolve around cutting or or selectively reducing competitive species. But I like to think of the easiest way that you can get the most improvement on your property and it won't cost you anything. As a matter of fact, that puts money in your pocket. Is a selective timber harvest. But um, I throw the caution flag out and I mark you probably remember me saying that back then, is that there are some really good folks out there in the timber industry. It's a very competitive industry. So there's just about anything you do, there's going to be there's gonna be some characters of some questionable quality, you know, so and and and not only what I mean by that is what they would pay you for their for your commodity, but also in the job that they will do. And by that I mean are they going to damage a lot of other trees in the process. Are they going to come in when it's completely wet and right up your property and leave you with a nightmare mess? So I advise doing If you don't personally know a good, reputable timber buyer in your area, then then I would certainly recommend contacting a private lands forester and what they would do is come out and they would walk with you, and they would talk with you about your objectives for your property. And like me, I've got a friend of mine that's a timber buyer, and I've got several friends that are forestry consultants. And after years of doing this, I feel comfortable having conversations both directions with these guys. I tell my forrester, I want to take every oak tree on this ridge that's twenty inches are larger, and you know, leave leave anything that eight nineteen and down for the next five years um. And then I'm also in between those harvest, I'm doing timber stand improvement work, which means I'm hinge cutting on my place. It's beech trees. We you might have seen a video that we did for land Beat on white tail properties and also for the management advantage a couple episodes based on on on hinge cutting. But with what you have to work with, everybody's got a different composition. Mine happened to be an absolute surplus of young coming in beach trees from one inch in diameter up to you know, twelve inches and creating some light to the floor and laying over trees to create additional structure for cover for betting. UM. But where I'm going with this is a good managed timber inventory harvest can result in the opening of your canopy, some dollars in your pocket, new growth for the next fifteen to twenty years that will be friendly and beneficial to your wildlife, and UM the ability to go in and manage you know, around and in between those harvests to create an ongoing perpetual situation. UM. So back to the back to the consultant. He will mark the trees for you and basically give you an estimate of value based on the size, which relates to total board feet. And there's a market value for each particular species based on the current conditions. And then it's pretty simple math to do number of board eight times the dollars per board foot UH to give you an estimate, and he can even put the put the property out forbid to several timber harvesters and um see who bids on it. And he can also say, hey, this guy has always done a good job for me, or you might watch this guy a little bit close, you know, so you're gonna get some inside scooped there. But you're basically going to have a supervisor that's working on behalf of you to take care of you, to make sure that things are being done number one, financially the right way to you're going to be compensated at the market value of what they might take. But also um following along to make sure the cleanup is done properly. The roads are a lot of times timber buyer will they'll do a basic clean up job while they will backdrack the roads and make a nice and smooth and they'll put water bars are in, which are little damns the differt water off your trail and things like that. But if you need some culverts put in, if you want to a road cut from this, you know, this hill down into this valley to connect to that creek. Saying you know, they'll say okay, well we'll just I'll just deduct that out of a little bit of a couple of trees, you know, and you can barter that out with a guy if he's there doing a clean up job with a nice doz or anyway. So, um, that's number one. Is a timber harvest, whether you do it managing it through yourself or through the consultant, is is an easy way to get timberland in shape and productive for dear habitat and woodland species like white to excuse me, like wild turkeys and and uh, and some of our states were declining habitat is causing the rough grouse to disappear. Rough grouse really rely heavily on that early, early successional timber growth and they're disappearing from the landscape because we're not doing enough harvesting in many areas of our states. But so let me jump in really quick here, Tom and ask you, um would to be correct and assuming that that right, there's gonna be some foresters, some consulting foresters who are going to be kind of savvy to what wildlife folks are interested in, like us when we're thinking about how to do this from a deer hunting perspective, and there's gonna be some consulting foresters that probably are just looking to maximize profit, and it's probably important to pick the right one. Is that question number one? Is that true? Very true? Very true? How good forrester will ask you what is your priority or what are your priorities in order? And I always tell number one is deer habitat or wildlife habitat. Number two is timber value, perpetual timber value. In other words, I want to make sure I've got marketable trees for the future. Number three is this aesthetics I really have gotten over long ago, the shock and all of what a what a woodland looks like the week after the foresters, you know, the cutters leave, I know who's going to be tops laying everywhere. I understand that they're gonna have You're gonna have some snapped off tops here and there. So you've just gotta you've gotta be able to understand and accept that. But you also need to have a job that's done correctly and your trees app safe around those trees that were harvested and non injured, and in my opinion, the road's done properly and groomed out well, so that you're left with a good piece that you can manage going forward. Yeah. Now I always hear about timber harvests and doing some management like this when it comes to hardwoods, Is there any opportunity with soft woods so you've gotta stand up pine trees or something. Is there ever gonna be a scenario where you can find someone who where you can get money out of that too, or earth these softwares is not worth enough to make that that work makes sense to our southern friends. Absolutely, if you're down below the Mason Dixon line and really strong in Alabama and Georgia the Carolinas. Timber production down there means means pine plantations, and so the market that the mills are set up to feed the market down there for polpwood and paper and and lumber that that that relies on that particular tie of wood. Up here in the Midwest, it's much much tougher, tougher to find that. I won't say that I've not seen fires that have found a market for softwoods, and I've seen some of my friends and customers that have sold some. But it's it's it's just the whole thing about supply and demand. It's a completely different realm. We're in a different universe from those guys down there. Um, it is possible, but it's I wouldn't I wouldn't count on it. Um. If you find a way to sell some times up here, um, I would consider yourself pretty lucky. Okay, that's good to know. Definitely good to know. Um. You mentioned hinge cutting. That's something we know. We've talked to a lot of people about hinge cutting. It's a very popular method for improving cover, for managing some degree of timber, And I think probably the thing about it is it's the most accessible, right anyone can go out there with the proper equipment chainsaw and proper safety equipment and and start making some changes that can result in pretty quick you know, dear behavior changes too. Um, we won't. I don't think it's worth going through the basics of what hinge cutting is since I think most people know about that now. But is there anything anything that you've seen as far as popular, best popular? What am I trying to say? Are there any types of advice out there when it comes to hinge cutting that you've seen that you want to say, oh no, please don't do that, Like, are there any kind of means you need to fix or just a couple of next level things we should touch on on that topic. Yeah, I would say, um, just for example, being around some some professionals in the forest forestry industry and hearing how they have sort of a, um I guess a pet peeve with with hinge cutting because frankly, they've seen they've they've seen it run them up and possibly way overdone incorrectly, and and um, you know these guys are are trying to tell you there's better ways to manage for timber, but here we are as wildlife guys trying to manage our temper for wildlife. Two. So I would say cautionary is just to make sure you can identify your tree species. That's number one. Um I I don't think I've put a chainsaw on one single white oak or red oak tree wild hinge cutting on my property of it has been beach. And again I'm that's specific to me. I'm not saying another guy that has all oak timber on his property isn't going to find it fine to eliminate and hinge over a bunch of three and five inch white oaks. That would you know that would horrify a forester in some situations. But the I think it's very very important understand your tree species in which your mass producing, which your wildlife friendly, and and have temper value. Luckily for us, the highest value lumber um in our woodlands here in the Midwest, also our acorn acorn producing trees for the most part, red oak, white oak. White oak is the king right now probably always will be in the oaks. But also, um, you have you have hickory walnut. Yeah, you could say deer won't utilize um, the walnut, but it is a it is a nut producing tree, and it is a highly valuable wood. I mean it's it's it probably rain rained supreme over even the white oak for the right the white walnut tree as far as market value, board foot value. And then um, probably the one that that's not a mass producer here in the Midwest is a sugar maple um. But it's a valuable hardwood. It's it's a good furniture. Would so making sure you can identify the trees that have potentially masked and market value and avoid cutting them unless it's absolutely necessary, and is it One could argue is it necessary? Um, But if you're if you're trying to free up a sixteen inch oke with five small oaks underneath it. Yeah, I might, I could see where you might want to hinge cut some of those. But a lot of foresters bristle at that because they're they've just seen guys that have then willy nilly with a chainsaw and done more damage than good. Um. But then again, it's all it's all subjective. Is it important to that guy that that he's cutting his out trees? Maybe he did it on purpose and doesn't care, but he is sort of eliminating some pooture marketable timber. Yeah. Yeah. So so speaking of cutting timber, Um, when you bought that first fifty seven acre piece, if I if I heard right, it sounds like it was mostly mostly timber, and to put food in originally you had to kind of carve out some spots in the timber. Is that right, that's correct? Yeah? I remember, Um, I created a little food plot that was once a logging deck in the timber. You know with that what I'm talking about where they stage up, it's where they stack all the logs and they get loaded on the trucks and off the hill they go. So this, this little piece was probably a quarter of an acre, and you know, not a small not not a big field by any stretch of the imagination. But it was up on an ice flat ridge top. And I had a tractor, and I had a bushog, and I had a greater box. This was back way back before the ferminator was ever a thought in my mind. So um. But I went up there with a chainsaw and a greater box with root I mean with a scarifier teeth and and cut and pushed saplings out of the way and ran the box through the soil, ripping up all the roots I could, and worked around some of that. At that time, there really weren't any big stumps, but maybe this stump the sides of a softball that my tractor. I've worked around those, but basically created a first clearing that way, and that was our food plot out of property for a long long time. And then when we did this harvest in two thousand and five, the first big timber harvest. Um, I worked with my cutter and I I flagged out those areas and I said, I would like you to take every tree inside of these you know, I you can put a paint spot on the trees or a ribbon or flax or whatever you want to do. And I said, I want everything that you can possibly take, and if if, if you make a penny off of it, and you're willing to take it off the hill, take it, and even if you don't pay me, you know, a dyme for it. And of course there was some marketuple trees in there, but there was a lot of trees that they just took because they know it's a free tree, they're going to take it. They just was reducing my my um labor in the end of what I was going to have to clear. So we created from that that oversizing. We created a one field by our camp that was basically about half an acre four tenths and then another one we call the South plot it's now eight tenths of an acre that was an expansion of our little tiny quarter acre. And then we created a two acre field in the Timber that was all at one time originally all forest and h that that was a cool really made your major transition. Yeah, so so can you help me understand how you chose these spots? Um? Sure, Actually it was fairly easy because they were probably the fattest fattest. They were the flattest areas on the ridges that had multiple fingers dumping into like a bench or a flat ridge top. So um, and it was easy for access for the timber guys. They as they were coming through, they basically drove right along these areas. And uh, I knew it from hunting to that they were flat and offered some converging trail areas and and it just it made sense that way. Also, they weren't against the property lines. They were well there was a nice buffer between those plot locations and any surrounding property lines. So there you know, no no eyes could see into those areas and run the risk of having somebody sitting on them and shooting into them. But um, sort of default that way. I mean, there are more criteria to look at, moisture, sunlight exposure, access in and out with equipment, Um, there's other things to consider, but those were the ones for me. So then what was the process after you had the loggers came in, they took out all those trees. Uh, where did you go from there? In this scenario? Yeah, it was it was like a tornado who went through there. I've got pictures of it early on when when they just finished and it was horrible. UM, but you know, you expected it to look devastating. UM. I was still landscape contracting at that time, so I had I had a steed loader and we did buy a grapple bucket for it, and and we what we did is we would go out on Saturdays and Sundays on the weekend and use the kid loader and take every tree top and just we kept feeding a fire. We built a giant fire in the middle of it, and we just started burning tops and burning tops and dragon um surrounding tops that we had easy access to right there, cutting down the remaining trees that the guys didn't take, and there were there were a lot. And you know, maybe step goes off to the side, put the logs off to the side as a possible firewood logs, you know, for the camp. But after all the tops were earned, and you have a field leftover of ash in the middle and stumps about every ten ft apart. And that's where the real fund began. And I say that tongue in cheek we um. We rented a stump grinder, a kind that attaches to the three point on a tractor, and it had a little station window where you can step off next to it. It was pto driven off the tractor, and it had a little um basically like a joystick and some buttons and you could the stump grinder would move in and out and left and right and up and down, of course, and we ground stumps. Um. We kept that thing for I don't know two weeks straight and ground stumps till we were seeing him in our sleep. UM. And I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of stumps. That was the easy I guess you would say the poor man's way. UM. Another way to do it, had I had the finances or the connections, was to leave the stumps a little bit higher and have somebody come in with the dozer and push them all out of the ground. But then again, I'm I'm dealing with giant root balls, you know, and what do you do with that? Um? Then you're you're piling up the root balls somewhere and creating UM. So the way that we did it, we ended up with a beautiful field with no litter around it, no piles, no nothing, and good good soil on top of the We we ground the stumps down six inches below the surface and then I took my skid loader when done and just push soil around and fill all the little low spots in and create a nice level field. So so when you're carving in a food plot like this inside timber, something I've never really thought about is how much of a buffer area? Like what am I trying to say? Let's say I had the goal of having a half acre food plot, would it be fair to say that carving out exactly half acre of space is not what you want to do because some amount of that will be so shaded out that's not actually gonna grow that if you if you want a half acre food plot, you might actually want to carve out, you know, six tenths of an acre, seven tenths of an acre to allow for a shaded bufferster. Is any of that something you ever think about? Or am I overthinking it? No? No, you're not overthinking it. And we mentioned it briefly a little earlier that you definitely have to look at the direction of the sun in the way the field orients to relationship to how the sun rises and sets, and you may have aspirations to have a particular size, but that just real real world conditions may not allow you to do that. Um. Now, the other thing you can do is create the opening that you can no matter how it's. You know, let's face it, some guys may have a twenty acre woods and they've got one little flat spot in there. Then let's let's say half an acre and it is what it is. You don't have any of their options because it's hillsides and in deep gullies and ravines. So you you you work with what you've got unless you have the ability to be selective based on conditions. And watch how the sun. You're gonna need four hours minimum of direct sunlight a day to grow a good sustainable forage of any kind. I mean, yeah, you can grow plants less than that, but that's what you're going to need to have a good viable food source. That's that's storing energy and providing for your deer. So backing up a step, if you if you work with what you've got and it's not perfectly oriented the way that you want. UM, some other things you can do is trim overhanging branches along the outside edges all the way around to to to maximize your area of impact. It's not a bad thing to have some shade early in the morning and late in the afternoon. The clovers absolutely love that. They like a little bit of break from the direct heat. In July and August here um and as the moisture in the ground starts to dissipate from the direct sun, you'll see your your best forages are growing in that partial shade. But just thinking outside the box in general old terms, looking at a UM east and west orientation to get um excuse me, north and south orientations, so that when the sun rises east to west, it's basically hitting the field all at the same time, you know, and you're getting ample sunlight coverage across the entirety as it as it peaks in the sky and goes down the other way. So thinking about that in terms of accessibility sunlight, how can I get equipment back there, and then choosing your forages to match the soil and the sun ridge top plannings. I've grown clovers in them just because I UM. I think my soil does is it has a lot of loam and it holds a lot of moisture. But as a general rule of thumb, bottom land soils at the base of the hills are going to grow a better clover field for you, and the tops might be areas where you would consider plants that are a little bit more drought tolerant or or a little more tolerant to heat and adverse conditions, and chicker he is one of those. But you can certainly grow your your all winter blends of cereal grains and brassic is on those tops as well, um, soybeans and corn and the timber as possible. Uh, soybeans need well. Depending on dear density, they can be a nightmare, but soybeans will do well in full sun with some fairly dry soils as as well. Like that particular two acre field that I just described. I've grown everything in that from different clovers that a round up bratty alfalfa, the eagle and round the real world soybeans, poured soybeans. I've plenty corn in there, Um, you name it, I've had it in there. On the shade issue, this is something I've never really thought too much about, but this is important. I'm imagining, is there is this an issue that's so important that you should think about the shape of your food plat two to maximize sunlight. So by that I mean what you you mentioned that example of orienting your food plot to run north to south so that it gets as much possible sunlight during those times. Would it also be beneficial to have a more of a square shaped food plot in a situation like this that that has more unshaded uh surface area versus a long, skinny food plot that might be in shade for a longer period of time. Do something like that makes sense at all? It does? UM. I am a big fan though, of the irregularity. Even when I did my all my landscape designs, and even when I'm doing a customer's habitat design, I'm a big fan of curves and irregular shapes. I just think it lends to itself to a more naturally pleasing look. Um. I also like the fact that a deer popping out at one end of the field has to make an effort to see at the other end of the field. That could that could lend well to a hunting strategy, I would say, unless it's a really extreme case, UM, I would just as long as your general directions are oriented north and south, and you're gonna have some coves or little dips and valleys are not valleys, but dips and curves off to the side. The majority of the field is going to do great. You may have some areas that struggle a little bit, as I said, sometimes those fields, those area is that struggle a little bit for direct sunlight early on, we will be the best areas later on in the summer because they're they've they've retained more moisture. So I wouldn't let I wouldn't lose too much sleep over that. Um, there's nothing wrong with square if that's the area you've got to work with, by all mean, and it's just a little bit easier with equipment turning around and running straight lines and all that. But I'm a fan of irregular and odd shapes and pinch points and ins and outs and that kind of thing, just just from the design aspect of it and the hunting the interest that it creates. Yeah, there definitely do seem to be benefits to having slightly more strategic shapes to those food plus, as you mentioned, to encourage travel throughout. Also, I think not only does irregular food plot shape lend itself to some of the movement things you said, but probably gives deer a little bit greater sense of comfort inside as well. Right, so not just looking at a big, wide open space, but they've got edges that that change around them. They've got some sections where they feel like they're a little bit more concealed. I gotta imagine that helps too. That's a great way to say it. Concealment is important to them, and these these woodland into your plots are just that's the whole purpose of them. Um. Well, not, that's one of the biggest benefits I should say of them, is just the fact that overall the thing is enclosed and surrounded by good heavy escape cover, and so just by by natural inclination, they feel good about it. But absolutely, if you can have a back cove to a field that has a little bit of wine, too, if the deer coming out that back float cod feel immediately immediately comfortable. And as they they venture out a little bit farther into the field, they can look on around the bend and see what's going on out there, and uh and and join the party and so to speak. But I think it's really neat to watch. Um, we've killed some mature bucks that will pop out in one part of the field and work a scrape line all the way around the perimeter. They've got to check the whole peripheral and will end up getting a shot because of the fact to the way it was shaped. You know, they've got to see what's what's going on around the bend. That's pretty cool. Um. Something that just popped in my mind is I'm thinking of this specific scenario of this shaded timber food plot. Would it ever makes sense to girdle trees around the outside, around the border so that you are essentially maybe there's a bunch of trees with a really big canopy that are on the outside that would be shading your food plot. For those that aren't familiar, girdling is a way I've never I've actually not done it personally, but I've seen that they had cut around the tree and then apply a herbicide and that kills that tree. Um. Is that a kind of easy way to give you like a shade border or a removing shade or on the border. Is that something you've ever thought about? It is a way to do that, for sure, But I would caution you if it's a marketable tree, um, I would have sold it and gotten it down there already anyway. But if that's if it's just a way that you're you know, the the your approach and you're coming in, you've got the the little spot that you can clear and open in it. And it doesn't involve a timp timber harvest. First of all, definitely, Mark, let's let's identify it. If it's a beautiful white oak tree, we're not. We don't want to do that or or any of the others down that list of desirable marketable species. But um, yeah, let's say it's a let's just say it's a hackberry or or or a beach or an aspen or something like that that has little to no value for us whatsoever either through um. And I know people are going to argue and say beach trees produce a nut. They absolutely do. But in my in my property, um, there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of beach and they're directly competing because their shade tolerant and my oaks are not. So UM, you just do what you're working with. In my case, I have no issue with removing as many beach as I can, because I never will be able to remove them all, and I would much rather have an oak tree of one sort or a fashion growing there instead. Of a beech tree. But back to the point. The only down I that I could see to what you recommended or mentioned there is it eventually that tree is going to fall. Um, large limbs are going to break off it off over time, and in a big wind is going to push it over some day. So consider that for number one, are you gonna be prepared to deal with it when it falls and have to cut it up and move it out of your plot? But number two, please be careful about hunting around those things too. I've seen ringed or or girdled trees in a windstorm um near by me, and I've climbed down just because I felt like, you know, that's certainly not a good scenario there that anything could happen. Yeah, that's a great point. Wouldn't want to be in that scenario, Um, yeah, yeah, that would be UM. I don't think we need to go into the basics of of food plots. Um. We've talked a lot about cover, We've talked a lot about some of the specific or some specific things about how to position food plots and things like that in the timber, But as far as like what to plant, you know, everyone wants to know, like what's your favorite thing to plan or what should I plant my food plot? Or should I do this clover this sybeing or or this or whatever. I don't know if there's necessarily value to saying like here's the best blend to buy, but what I am always interested in and what I think probably the better question is for someone to be thinking about when they have a food plot that they're gonna try planning for the first time or that they want to experiment with. It's probably just it's probably just how do you go about making that decision? Like what are the right questions to ask? Is an individual to get to the right answer as far as what to plant? Um, So, could you walk us through, Tom the things that you are thinking about in your mind when you have an opening and you're going to plan a food plot. What are all the questions you're asking to yourself to come to the final answer of what should be planet here? Sure? The underlying probably first question would be is this going to be a Am I considering this a nutritional feeding plot? Or is this a spot that I want to just have maximum attraction and I want to be able to hunt the edges of this when the wind allows me to do that. They can, they can provide a book. UM, but I guess what I'm getting at is, are you looking at a at an annual situation that you're going to plant in late summer early fall where that plant is just starting to kick in and do maximum growth and providing real palatable, soft, tender, young nutritional plants UM as opposed to planning something either the spring before or even the fall before. That is a perennial plant that you're going to have to maintain throughout the year. But it's also going to be providing year round or close to year round as much as possible during the growing season nutrition UM for a for a thriving gear herd. So you can pretty much simply UM carve it into two big groups right off the bat. A lot of guys don't they care about the other. They just want to plant something to hunt and UM you know that that's that's fine. Everybody's got their own objective. As crazy land managers that can't get enough of it are planning um different food sources, both warm and cool season plants and also perennials in some fashion or form and relationship to one another to always have the highest possible nutrition on our farm or on our property to keep our deal here number one, keep them there, but also healthy and growing and maximized. So I would say, uh, equipment is probably a second choice or a second factor if if you're just going to be doing some light maybe even hand tools, it can certainly, um make things a little bit easier to decide. You may not want to spend sixty for an acre bag of of perennial clover um when when um, you know, all you've got to work with as a rake in a in a leaf blower. Um. So if you've got big equipment or or any any type of equipment to get the job done, then then you can maybe think about something a little bit more, you know, full term and more more a perennial. I really do believe that old adage or the old saying mac Duma teaches this and the Dear Stuart programs two of your property should be dedicated sent three to five better of your total acreage and food. And if you can split that three up in the two or three types of food, you're you're even that much farther along and hedging your bets as far as spreading out the value and attraction of your food. So let me just give you a classic example. I've got soybeans ford soybeans in a field in the bottom, and up at the top, i've got a m around up ready alf alpha field that's in one plot. And I also then will go into an inner seed greens and grains into it in mid August with the machine. And so now I've got I've got winter wheat and some brassicas that are coming up in that round up ready plot. Because as the alphalfa starts to wane at the end of the growing season and say to the final cold freeze shuts it down, those other plants are now available there. Um. The soybeans, of course, are highly attractive forage through the summer. But then again the deer turned back to him again when the beans dry off and he gets cold if you're not using a forage type soybean when they leave start to yellow off here in the Midwest, usually the last week of August into the first two weeks of September, about the time antlers are drying down and velvet starts to peel. You can walk the soybean rows and broadcast greens and grains. When I say that I'm just kind of covering a broad spectrum of plants um into the bean rows and double up that food plot and make it a uh an extended attractive fields. So now you've got attractive lush green is growing in and you've got those standing soybean pods that they're going to be in there hammering when the weather gets cold. Um. And then another field may be directly just nothing but a disk the soil I've I've lined and fertilize it, and I've planted a fall blend of say annual clovers with a particular one or two wheat or oat species that I find useful that that work in conjunction with one another. UM. And of course White Tail Institute as our sponsored with whitetail properties, So I certainly look look at their broad spectrum available plants and there's there's a plant and a mix or a bland to suit any situation UM that we've talked about other than the crop type greens. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a lot of success with their with their seed as well. I've used the kind of combination that's worked for the couple of small plots that I'm able to plant on a property that I've got permission on. I've been doing, um, a mix of winter greens and then their oats, and I've done strips of at um to allow me to properly time when those things get planted. Um. But but yeah, I love your your approach to having a diversity of food laid out in kind of strategic way so there's something for deer at all times of year. And then I gotta believe that by doing that, you're able to pattern deer movement in certain places based off of that most palatable food source. Right absolutely, And you'll see the change. You'll see deer transition from one and even in the field when you have a um, just say you have a blend of four or five different species out there, you'll see deer selectively constantly moving and they may be selecting this particular clover for this three or four days this week, and then as that plant begins to mature and another one's coming on and it's at its highest palatable protein level, they're selecting that. They're amazing creatures, they know exactly what's best for them and they can select that out. So um, yeah, it changes through the season, just like the minute that the first, soyping leaves start to yellow, they become dried out. There no the attract at the deer and a switch from soybeans and go to a green grain, a green um cereal grain, or a clover or a young brassica plants. So it's they certainly are very selective. And the word is browsers. You know, they browse and they people say grays. They browse. Their designed their mouths are designed to clip and twigs and shoots and the ends of weeds and everything too. But they they've got that soft palate and and that uh, those lower teeth. But they're out there clipping off fresh forage and they know what's good for them, so they're purposely selecting that out. Yeah, it's kind of amazing that they whatever, know, whatever mechanism it is that allows them to select. They are able to select the very most nutritious thing at just the right time of year for that specific pliant matter um to benefit them most, which is kind of amazing. I wish that I had that kind of tuti so I knew not to keep eating the Wendy's hamburgers all the time. Well, I think we're there at an advantage that they can probably tell through taste. That's my that's my my guide. INSTA tells me that they're able to taste UM, and it has a certain appeal when it's just at the highest peak where the stuff that tastes good good, it's not always the best that's so good for you. Yeah, we need to figure out some way to flip that around. So UM some time, I feel like I we're gonna get going really long here if I'm not careful to rein us in because we've we've covered a lot of interesting stuff. I'm really enjoying this, but there's a lot more I want to talk about UM. So I'm gonna force I'm gonna force myself to stop so that we don't keep you all night. And I'm just ask you one final question, which is you know, your work with white tailed properties and your work with the management advantage and all the different things you've done UM has put you in contact. I gotta believe with some of the most knowledgeable UM experience inst deer hunters and managers of land and wildlife, some of the very best probably the entire country. UM. When you look at that that top tier, those very best folks who really know how to manage wildlife and habitat and do it to like that next level. What what stands out to you about those people, because I gotta believe there's a lot of us, people like me and other people who have who have dabbled with it, who had a small property maybe or maybe they've got a decent sized chunk and they've been working on for the years, but they're trying to find out how do I take things to the next step? How do I how do I find excellence? How how do you define excellence? Or what different traits when you look at the very best of the best out there stand out to you That would be helpful for us to to keep in mind. I think it's an insatiable appetite and desire to always want to learn more. And of course you've got to have that absolute, just crazy passion for deer. Just we all love hit kil deer and know that that's obviously a common thread. And we all love antlers. We love holding big antlers. Um, it's everybody, you know. There there's gonna be the criticism where you guys are just about trophies. No, No, I'm not. Um we we we love mature dear, I don't care what it scores. We love that's that's that's what drives my daughters and I is selecting that the best oldest mature buck we can grow on our property. Um. But getting back to the the guy that has it, UM. The people that I respect in the industry are are just insatiably hungry and wanting to learn more. And I think it's it's you've gotta you've gotta give a guy do do credit for putting in time and the trenches, you know, the the the older guys. And I guess and I don't look at myself as a pro or as as someone to I don't. I'm just I'm humbled that you called and asked me to talk today. I'd never look at myself as in comparison or in the same ballpark as any of the guys that I'm that I look up to. But I just I just think that there is that there's something to be said about somebody that's been around the block many times and has done it and seeing what works and what doesn't and can help guys that are just getting started and way shorten their learning curve by Hey, don't do that. I did that five years ago, and it was a disaster. Here's the better way, you know, And if you can keep guys um from wasting time and wasting money and wasting you know, let's face that you do something wrong one deer season or one food plot season, you may be stuck till a year or twelve months from then to be able to rectify it and do it over again. So always get your hands on man. When I was younger, it was reading, you know, I read Red, Red Red, and every article i I could get my hands on quality White Tales magazine and reading from the best and obviously doing it and seeing what worked and making a mental note not to do that. Or true, it's do this differently, keeping keeping good records. Don't be afraid to take advice from others. Don't be so um, you know, high minded it that there's not a better way or somebody that can help you understand a slight twist or turn that could make your results better. But yeah, just be constantly hungry to want to to want to learn more, and uh you can just immerse yourself in it. Yeah, that's great, great advice. And uh, I think without a doubt, and I think anyone who has heard this conversation would certainly put you in the same category as anyone else out there who's who's sharing some really really helpful advice. As far as these things I've I've found this really enjoyable, So so thank you for that, Tom, and UM for folks that want to get in touch with you about a property, or who want to learn about what you're doing, or who want to see or your film hunts or anything like that. Um, where can people go online or get in touch with you? Sure? Um, well, you can certainly just go to white Tail Properties dot com and click on the state of Indiana and my name will be there, Tom James, or you can email me at Tom dot James at white Tail property dot com. Um, you can certainly also go if you want to see what we've been doing as far as some habitat work, the land Beat series by white Tail Properties. I've been fortunate enough to be asked to be involved with the digital program land Beat, which white Tail Properties is is excited to be ramping up to many more episodes a year, and we're we're doing and filming exactly the stuff that we're talking about today, Mark, which is awesome. You know, all land related and dear habitat management related stuff. Um, it'll be short, interesting segments and often several other guys on the White Tail staff are are going to be involved in that. And then the Management Advantage dot Com my buddies, Casey Shutman, Chuck Pikes, Howard O'Neil um, Eric Long. There's several guys that's that's in that group that have been long involved in that, and we contribute as we can current relative topics to what we're doing on our properties. Were trying to film and show that work being done and the results of that being on So folks can go back through the archives of that program either on the website or on the YouTube channel and search up the topic and you'll see us doing and doing it somewhere in the past. And then we we allow times like to include hunts that that show the result of that hard work that we've put into it. Excellent. Well, i I've I've watched the videos, I've I've seen the land beat things you're doing. I've been kind of privy to some of these different things you're up to, and everything seems pretty darn excellent. Time. You've been helping a lot of folks out and I think you did here today too, So so thank you for thank you very much for saying that. Yeah, and good luck with the upcoming spring and summer work on on your properties. Yeah, I've got that big project right around the corner, and I'm more excited about that than anything I have been in a very long time. It sounds like it's going to be a good one, yes, sir, all right, Tom, let's talk again soon. Thanks Mark, And that is going to be a rap. So if you'd like more information about anything we've talked about, you know, as Tom mentioned, you can find his information over at White Tailed Properties dot com. Uh. Please participate in shed rally this coming weekend. It's gonna be a lot of fun. I'll be out there looking for antlers. Make sure you wear your Wired Hunt hats and shirts so you can be included in the giveaway. And otherwise, I just want to wish you guys luck, good luck out there looking for antlers, have a great time, and until next time, stay wired. Tot

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