00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, I'm Casey and I'm Tyler, and this is the l Hunting Series from the Element podcast. If you want to get on ELK, it helps to hang with dudes that no ELK and that ain't us. But luckily the dudes and no ELK have cell phones and we call them up. So, whether you're a veteran of September or you're just cutting your eyebories and the ELK woits, you're gonna hear something here that will help you get the full draw of this fall. If you find this podcast helpful, pop that subscribe button and go check out our l Hunting playlist on YouTube. Now let's rock and roll. Al right, guys on the phone, we have got Drew Rouse with real game calls. Drew, what's happening to that man? Oh? No, a lot. Just go back to the shop. I was out playing some food plots they to day. I just wanted to see if they start coming up or not. Wait a second, this is the LK Hunting Series and we're talking about foots. How does that work? Well, I'll move from the mountains out to central Kansas just so we could do you know, our man nufacturing would be a little bit more scalable out here up being up where I was at in the Vale Valley and Callorado, everything is so expensive. Yeah, sure, we just decided if we're going to make more calls, we get to do it somewhere. It's a little you know, a little bit more economical to do American manufacturing. So yeah, yeah, for sure, And you picked a great place to move to, for sure. If you're a wattel hunter. At least, there's not a lot of trees out there, so I kind of wonder where you're getting all the wood to make these calls from. But fair enough, No, there aren't a lot of trees. I mean in the creek bottoms there's trees, but there's also a lot of white tails in there. And we got a bunch of mule here where I'm at too, So yeah, you can get the either or option here with a with the resident archery tags. That's cool. Did you grow up hunting muled here up in the mountains too? I hunt a mule here, I mean I always have since I started hunting um with my bow. Yeah, I shot a couple of the rifle too, but um, let's uh. I was a skier and you know, in the off season up there in the mud season. You just picked up bow hunt because I've always wanted to get into it, and uh, it's a good spot to be at, you know, up there in the Central Rockies. Yeah, to be a bow hunter. So have you ever called in a mule deer? Actually I have. We make a deer call. It's like a dog leap. But um, multy are very cullable. That's cool. Yeah, yeah, I mean they're very they're really vocal to. I mean I heard I've heard like whole herds of meal deer in the spring in the in the mountains shed hunt like mew and back and forth. That's cool. Yeah, we've heard, Uh the bucks do the thing before, you know, chasing does and whatnot. And it was a surprise, you know because we're you know, wait till hunters and then we all count we get the chance and this year's the same. But you know, you just think about mule deer is just silent because people don't really do that that much with them. But they're usually you know, stalking or whatever. But they're deer like any thing else, you know, and uh, like elk too, they're gonna vocalize and figure out a way to to uh get the ladies. So is that how how how did the ilk reel? Well, let me back up, was the al creel what you started with? Yeah? I started with that l creel call. And I guess my original idea was I was going to make a mouthpiece for the bugle that we were going to come out with me and a couple of my ski and buddies. But yeah, um, it just made perfect. Even the very first prototypes made really a perfect sliding cow So yeah, um yeah. I invented that in like two thousand and twelve and like early August or about the middle of August, and then we took it up to my buddy's house and lived up on top of one of the mountains around there, and I was playing with it in the driveway and we walked back in the house and about you know, sitting there for five minutes, cow elks started coming down this driveway. It was proof R and D done right. Yeah, right off the bat, that thing. Yeah, it seemed highly a really good sound. So that's how I started off doing it. Um. I started off trying to get a patent for that alcohol. I used it the first season A whole bunch, and actually I ended up aryone monster public planned over the counter bull and it didn't used to fit in your mouth. So he took a step out from behind a tree and I let the arrow go and he spun on me and I hit him back, and I never did find that bull. But that's the next year. I made it so you could put it in your mouth and play it hands free. I actually just watched that YouTube video that you put up. Was just kind of the the stop him style, uh you know, calcoll or whatever. You drew your bow and and kind of gave him some soft musing stuff and look pretty sweet man. Uh so did it perform the same once you you know, scaled it down. Yeah, No, it's actually gotten it's gotten better over the years. I mean, you know, originally I just start out playing with these things in my living room, and you know now I made tens of thousands of them to just spending an evolution of product design. You want to make it more bulletproof, and um make it so that you know it doesn't break or make funny sounds anyway. So I just put years of trying this, trying that into it. Can you talk about because you know, we're able to know what these are and what they look like, and we're looking at him on the internet and everything else, but like the listener may not know exactly what we're talking about here. This is different than your normal diaphragm call. Explain what it looks like. It's it's like two pieces of wood that hinge at the back, you know, and you can blow through it. So the diaphragm is actually not uh latex in this call, it's a nitrial diaphragm, and so it's got a little bit different sound to begin with. And uh, it's enclosed inside the call, so as the lid opens, the read incrementally gets bigger in size. So you go from you know, that high pitch to the low pitch just by letting the call open up, and you're able to control that really easy. And then you you blow through, you can inflect your voice. Um, you know, the it's very it's very unique looking, I guess you could say. So. Yeah, if if you're at home, google it and you can get on their website. But if you can't have a computer in front of you, imagine like, uh, a set of false teeth. It's what kind of looks like to me, but uh, you know it's it's two plates with I guess that notitrol the middle? Is that not troll? Um? Is that stretch and kind of wear out over time like late tex does? Or is it more durable? It tends to be more durable because you're not you know, you don't spin on it as much. It doesn't go in your mouth like yeah, like uh like the Latex does. Um. I've got people that I've had calls for like four or five years that still play the same one. Yeah, so but you can replace it. Um. It's definitely a lot easier for me to replace it. But I've got a lot of people that I figured out how to do it just by putting one in playing it and you know, kind of like fly time. It's a good parallel to that. Actually, you know, if you're fly tie, you can take these things apart and put them back together. Sure you know what was it created out of? Um? The necessity? Um? Or was it created out of like a need to be able to call to ELK easier because it's tough to use a diaphragm. Or was it created um with like the sound of a good you know, a good call a good sound call. I think I was just never really happy with all the alcohols that you could buy us. You didn't have some kind of shortcoming too, there'd be some thing about it that was a compromise. And so I would like, I've always been somebody who made things. I mean for years and years I fit ski boots and and uh, you know, did all kinds of tinkering with things, and it was deconstruction. And so I started making skis and end up oing a ski company, and I just into tinkering with things. So I just decided I could make a I had this idea to make a diaphragm called it was a lot more controllable. Yeah, is it? Is it? I mean, is it by nature easier than a diaphragm? Though I could? Could I just put it in and pretty much start making decent noises with it? Yeah, you know, you sound really good right off the bat. I mean, my son's four and he sounds pretty good with it. Yeah, four year old can make a pretty good elk call by theirselves for but me, he plays really nice cow sounds with it. But it's really user friendly. I mean, like anybody can figure it out. Um, if you're a good elk caller, Like I've got some of the best out cutting guides in the country that use it. And the better elk hunter you are, the more you understand their language, the more you can play the thing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you grew up there and like the Central Rockies, I guess you know North Actually I'm from Maryland. I grew up Okay, this makes sense. That's why you have a psycho reel. Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah. I was wondering why that. I was too, I was like, what is this, this kind of weird little offshoot, you know. So when did you move out West? I moved out to West when I was nineteen. I worked at a ski shop in Baltimore, which is kind of a weird thing. I decided don't want to be a professional skier, and I got obsessed with it and moved out West. And uh, I did that for a long time. Yeah. What did you do? Do you do downhill stuff across country or what I competed in? Well, I did a lot of like photo shoot stuff for like veil resorts, um skiing powder Yeah in the end, but I skied in some big mountain free skiing competitions like, I competed in South America in Canada, and I wasn't really great at it, but you know, I was good enough to have made the finals and against like fifty of the world's best skiers in Chile. W. Yeah, that wasn't the best at it, but I was decent. Yeah. Anyways, I just I got obsessed with that when I was at a young age and just kept doing it. So I skied until I was like like thirty seven years old. So I lived up there for twenty years and skied for almost the whole time. And uh, I've had four a C L reconstructions of fractured my C seven that kind of grew out of it. Yeah, that'll put a damper out of Elk seasons, man, goallee. I started making this alcohol, and that's exactly my thought in my head is like if I keep skiing, I wouldn't be able to help coome the rate I'm going. So I just kind of hung it up and have my fun. And I got obsessed with hunting white tails and yah. So what what what lured you to the Elk Woods when you moved out there. Well, my neighbor we lived in this duplex and my neighbor give us some milk stakes. I mean, I've always seen it on TV. Like I, like I said, I grew up fishing, and you see, like Jimmy Houston bo hunt for helk. He's from right down the road from where we live. So I remember that. I think that's who was anyways, seeing them bohunt and the bull elk, and that always stuck in my head. And then when it moved up to the mountains, it was like, well, if you moved to Bermuda, you get a boat and go fishing, because the fishing would be awesome. And I'm like, man, I'm in the middle of like hunting paradise, and so if I'm ever gonna do it, I I went out and bought a rifle and then I took hunters safety and I was like, man, archery season starts earlier, and I'd always shot bows as a kid, so I bought a bow and started hunting them. Yeah, So that this is cool because you kind of came at it kind of the way where a lot of guys do, where you don't grow up and like you kind of had to you know, the learning curve is pretty steep. I'm sure at some point um, um, Yeah, unless your dad bo hunted ELK. I mean, I don't know a whole lot of people who's fathers did bohun ELK. And if they did, then they're extremely lucky because they get a jump start on it. But most guys I know started in their twenties or you know, late teens or something, so as you you hunt it mostly OTC stuff. Yeah. I hunted one one in the unit sixty one in Colorado, But other than that, I mean I hunted like every year, tried hunt like thirty days. You burned all the points that you ever had while you lived there to go. Yeah I did. Yeah? Was it cool? It was fun? Man. I had a lot of fun up there. I had to work quite a bit during my season, which you know, that's just the way it goes. I don't get paid elk on. I get paid to make ELK calls. But um, I had a lot of fun in sixty one. And there were some days where like they'll bugled all day long, that's all it's not. It's not the trophy quality. I guess it used to be. But there's still a lot of bulls. With all those bulls, the High Bowler cal ratio. They're definitely very talkative. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I shot a seven by eight. Wow, Oh my goodness, that's a lot of points, man, Yeah he was. It was the biggest one I've seen. I've seen him in. I seen him in the hay field on private and then they were going up to bed up above there on the mountain where it was public and seeing him like three days before I shot him at calling him in. He broke off one of his points and I guess he lost his cows at night and he came in just screaming. It was awesome. Oh yeah, he got his boatloop at night and was wanting to take a vengeance of somebody. Huh oh, yeah he was. He was the perfect one to, yeah, have him come in just screaming his head off. So you've done like that's like a lot of dream hunt. That's a dream hunt for a lot of guys. You know, sixty one it's a uh you know, one of the top four at least one point requirement units in the state. Um, and then you've done a lot of the O T C stuff too, Like what's the big difference that you see minus the obvious of pressure right between like OTC and and that kind of and uh big draw you know like that. I would say it was like the bull to cow ratio is really you know, that was something that was really obvious to me because when there's not that many bulls, it's kind of like when you got like one tom and he's got a whole bunch of hands. He's not gonna gobble his head off. You know, he's get one herd bull. And you know, every time he starts bugling, he either calls in some you know, some five by fives, or he calls in you know, some hunters you don't have a bugle as much. So I thought there were a lot more vocal in that draw unit. Yeah, but I've seen bigger bulls in the over the counter units, and I saw on my whole draw hunt, which one a bunch of different units in Colorado. I mean there's they're not everywhere, but if you spend enough time in the back country, you're in spots that are hard he get to you. You know, those bulls, they get smart and and you're not going to see him during the rifle seasons unless you're you know, still hunt them in the timber and there. Anyways, they do they just they do hold over because they gets so much pressure, the totally go nocturnal. And yeah, for sure. So let's uh, let's approach this some two different ways. We'll get back to the big bull stuff in a second. But you talked about originally like the thing that led you to elk hunting was was the meat stuff? Right, you had some elk steaks at a buddy's house. So if somebody wants to kill a elk, what's what's the best tactic to just go kill a elk? Mm hmm, I mean cal rifle tag in in a season where you're gonna get fresh snow is a pretty good tactic. Is that like third fourth season something like that. Yeah, I mean probably the later, the better chance that you're gonna get snow. But that's a really good way to do it if you're not you know, if you're new to it. Um, archery hunt is pretty pretty good. But you know, I think you just got to be able to find the help. Yeah, so, and um that snow really helps if you can't get them talking or whatever, you know, at least if you can, if you're willing to walk, you just keep walking until you can cut a fresh track, you know, hopefully that's the situation. Is that why the snow helps to cut tracks or is there are are there other reasons that it helps? Yeah, just just to locate them. I mean that's where I live. There's just endless amounts of huge timber, you know, so you're not gonna be able to glass him as readily as in other places where it's you know, more oak brusher or aspen something that's you know, more open terrain. So I guess it depends on the terrain that you're hunting. But you know, if you're getting getting to hunt and the oak brush and the aspens and the leaves are down and you have pretty decent optics, you know, that's you might not need the snow. Yeah, got you. So let's take that step further. What if a guy wants to kill a bull? Do you think September is the best time to go. Yeah, I mean you're gonna be able to find them if they're bugling, you know, so, and at least you get out there at night, didn't hear. I'm trying to figure out it gets spot to where they're at, or get on them before they've gotten messed with too much. Yeah, Okay, let's talk about that, because I think that's something that people gloss over a lot of times and and don't really understand. I guess if you're headed out west, like, uh, you talked about listening to him at not, so you're scouting at not for bulls. Yeah, I mean they'll they'll be more liable to talk, and especially like after sundown or before first light. But you get out in the dark and you know they're more they're a lot more comfortable. Yeah, and then they know they're not going to call in hunters and haven't had the experience where they're a bugle in an hour before sunrise and you know they're not gonna get spooked ever normally when they might get something something get up windhom or something. But what time are you heading out in the morning when you do that? It just depends. I've I've done out in the evening a whole bunch of times, you know, or gone out two in the morning and drove around just stop and listen. Yeah, I mean, if you're if you're gonna hunt them, if you're gonna hunt elk that you're you're picking up at night, are you like to say you're if you're camping, you know, or whatever, and you're on active hunt. It's not just a scouting deal, are you, you know, setting your alarm and getting up and heading out at a certain time or you know, I guess is that depending I mean, if you're can get it, if you can get in the woods an hour before daylight, you know, and trying to hear where they're at, then you're gonna be a mile ahead. Like that's the hardest part about ELK hot on the over the counter units is finding them, you know. So do do you feel like they and over the counter and most over the counter units are are ilk bugling at night and most over the counter units, yeah, I mean it just it depends, like I mean, I guess it depends on the stage of the rug. But I've had the experience that they've been more vocal, you know, in those dark hours than than they will be as soon as the sun comes up. There be shut up. Yeah, because I went to I was with Casey like uh seventeen and an over account of unit. It's a very highly pressured over account of unit, and we didn't hardly hear any bugle in at night day nothing, you know, but um, but you know, I was just and and this is in you know, late September, third week kind of stuff, you know, fourth week kind of stuff. Yeah, And that's the thing that we don't get to really, um, I guess draw too much on. You know, you can't really hop off size as much because you're not there the whole month. But like, as a guy who's lived there, do you feel like that that's the best week to be there or like what's most advantageous if you want to try to find bugling bulls, Well, I mean they've always tended to bugle pretty good open and he can before they really get messed with. And they might not be all the big bulls doing it, but I've heard him bugle and all all season. It just depends on, you know, the situation. If they get a hot cow, you know, and with him, it might stir things up to where you just start bugling and he's been quiet all season, you know, or I don't know what makes him go off, but I've had, you know, all season long, a consistent amount of bugle, And just depends on the situation of the elk that you got into. I guess. So, but that last week you're you're probably more likely to find them all fired up and and rutting, but they might be bugling real quiet. I mean I've heard that a lot of times too. You get LT coming in and it's just such a half hearted bugle, and you're like, what's that? And then you end up seeing him creeping in. So I got that. I guess it was um, I heard Elk you know, got on elk uh and like snuck in and then actually stuck into the herd and got on the herd bull. He was just like a big five He wasn't like a giant antler bull, but you know, just a different top body, you know, you know, and he's like at forty five yards and he throws his head up and I'm spotting stalking at this one and said a word and he just goes weir. And I guarantee you if you're tunde yards, why you wudn't even heard the thing? It was weird, man. I didn't even know. I knew, didn't know that was an option. You know, Well, that's that's pressured Elk because you know, for whatever reason, he decided that if he's loud, and they do that quite a bit, you know, I've had cow elk like cow ok in the summer where you're camping and you can hear him like two basins over, you know, and then hearing how elk like third week in September and the same they're still talking because they're they're moving through the timber or whatever they're trying to communicate, but it's quiet. It's really quiet. Yeah, So that opening that opening week or so before they get messed as much. You know, people you hear some people talk about how that can be a good weekend, but then you know, it seems like most people want to hunt them that third week or fourth week, and like because of the their you know, the fact that some places they bugle like crazy, you know or whatever, and so um, like, how confident do you feel in going out, you know, the first week and getting on and being able to call in bulls for instance first week? Yeah? Yeah, I mean you definitely can call an elk the first week. So and I think as is like I think Colorado seasons a little later this year when they're doing it, like starting September twenty in auguste August and stuff like that first week's gonna be better this year anyways. But yeah, you know, even that early first week, they'll be talking. Yeah, I mean they like, do they are cows coming into Estris in that first week or is that just bulls being super fired up? I think well, I think the younger bulls are going to be just cranked up anyways. So and then those older age class bulls they might know better, you know, and that kind of stick by themselves. But as that first week goes through, like September third, four five, those bulls are going to be one to get with cows. So you know, if you can be acting like a herd of elk, I've called in big herd bulls that have been you know, either single or pairs, and that's what they're looking for. They want to find that herd. They're like, okay, all right, I heard enough of this, let me go check it out. So, um, I've kind of heard this before and I haven't really got to see it because I also had a really thick spot usually when we got to Colorado. So it's just kind of hard to get a vibe for the herd, you know. But like, um, from what I understand, like the big bulls kind of let the let the young dudes heard them up and then they'll come in there and whip button and steal them. But I never knew that, or at least what you just said was that those big bulls will sometimes hang out and pair until it's time to actually go get with the herds. I what you said. Yeah, we called in. It was one It wasn't over the counter unit, and it was up a tree line and we had this is probably maybe the second or third year that we had those elk calls. Maybe it was in the first year we had them. Um and my hunting partner was sitting up a tree line and just doing juvenile bulls sounds and doing a whole bunch of cow sounds and you know, taking breaks and I hadn't seen anything all day, and we actually probably been there like forty five minutes. We decided to eat sandwiches, and as soon as we started eating our sandwiches, two bulls came in like nine yards at bottom of the meadow and just kind of looked right at us, and I was just like, damn it. But they were they were both very big bulls for like, you know, they were counter union. They were together. Yeah, I hope that PASTRAMI was worth it, But I don't think we would have got a shot where we were sitting anyways. I mean it was just one of those things where like probably shouldn't have set up where we set up. Maybe that's something I learned, is when I started having these alcohols and they had a better sound. I mean, they is is what it is, like. I don't carry anything else anymore for a reason. It sounds really good. So I sort of learning that you need to set up in different places because if you set up out in the open, you know, and they could come in and they expect to see l and then they hang out. It's just like turkey hunting. You put your decoys out in the middle of the field two yards Tom might just sit back there and gobble at him, you know, crawl out there and take him down. He comes back out, doesn't see him, he ends up coming in. So that's something I learned that don't set up in a small group of trees but not a whole lot of cover around. You. Try and get in somewhere where they're gonna have to come in there and look, so are you doing that? Um like going to some thick cover like that you're expecting out to be betting in. Is that kind of the idea. We just want you just want to be able to try be in a spot where like if you're going to try and call him in, you know, and you're the you're the caller, you wanted to come into bow range. So if you're in a thick I mean, I just to do what Will Primos would say all the time, set up somewhere thick and that way they have to come in where they can't see you. Yeah, So are you calling with are you hunting with a partner? Almost most of the time, I guess I have a lot. I mean that last time I did on hunted by myself because no one, you know, everybody was gonna work up there. You know, they can't take off to go down to Unit six one and they're they're hunting their hunts. So I end up hunting that one just with the camera guy, and that was a lot of fun, just calling for myself the whole time. Yeah, is that on YouTube? I honestly, I have not put that hunt up yet. So I put up a little snippet here and there of that hunt. But I stay so busy with all the calls and stuff that I make, and all the stuff that I do that. I never finished that in that hunt at some point. Um, But yeah, I mean I shooting that bull. I think I shot him at fifty yards and then I shot him. He came in and started walking at me. I shot him in frontal in the heart, and then I stopped him again and shot him in the other shoulder in fifteen yards. That's pretty cool. But hold, so the first shot was at fifteen or the second shot. The first shot was at fifty, and then he just turned and came towards us, you know, from where they where he was hearing the column. Oh goodness, you shot him at fifty and then got another shot at fifteen. It never goes that way. It always goes the other way, you know. I showed him at fifty thirty and then stopped him at fifteen and shot him in the opposite shoulder. So there's three shots. Oh my gosh, d you here. I mean, it's like the sound he here, and he just kept on coming in. I think that first shot he probably didn't even feel it. Whatever. What a testimonial. Crazy Yeah, yeah, dude, after hearing that, you know that you need to be shooting a heavy heart hit and narrow no, kid, dude. I mean I shot him with deer last year with the day six broadheads and the arrows, and I'm thinking they're gonna be definitely going into the elk wood with me this year. Wait, so were you bugling him him in? Are you cal calling him? Man? I actually had I've made a whole bunch of elk sounds. I had had come in on there was a whole herd elk down this little pocket, and I had gotten down and around him so I could come in, you know, with the air falling towards us, and uh as I'm coming up on him, the wind change and all of those all blew out the top and so we're sitting there and like I could hear this. This bull have been bugle in the whole time, and you know, we're I was just like, you know what, he's gonna keep on bugling. It's gonna let him keep on coming up the hill. So let him bugle, and very sparsely cow called at him, just enough to keep him knowing exactly where we were. Probably only tripped at him, like, you know, five or six times a whole time, but he just kept coming up, and I was trying to you know, it's like when you got Tom coming in, if he's goblin and coming in, shut up? Yeah do you so? Are you like normally is that like one of your favorite tactics is to like create kind of the herd dynamic in your calling and then hope that lures. Well, I mean that's I think that's a lot of people's tactic. But it's just the more multiple you can sound, the more it's gonna sound like real elk, Like you know, they're they're very vocal animals. I mean, like that's something that I learned just living up there for so long. Elk will talk like they'll talk a lot, and people will be like, oh, well you called too much. Well, elk when they're happy and they're talking like they call a lot. So you know, I think it's almost like an Eastern Turkey hen Like, if you get Eastern Turkey hen talking, they just won't shut up. Yeah, and the l could be the exact same way. So I think it's just things sounding multiples, just extremely poort as far as like not sounding like the same call the same volume over and over and over again. Right, Yeah, for sure. Do you ever incorporate like the ground noise and stuff too, like rocks and sticks and stuff like that, like kick, kick rocks, throw things. Yeah, I mean elk are a loud Yeah, if you're gonna walk, and if you're gonna walk through the woods, like still hunting during the rightful cow seasons, I would always call because the snows and they're very inevitably crunchy, so you can't be quiet, you know, And so if you think about an elk walking through the woods are not quiet. So if you just kind of walk normal on colcol softly, then they'll stand there and golk at you. Whereas if if you're not calcoling at all, they might see you and they'll be gone see you, but they give you, give you three or four seconds if you if you've been calcoling, because they'll be like, as long as they don't smell you. What is that? So hopefully you got your going up quick. And yeah, that's a great tactic. That's cool, man. So what about like, is there a difference in the way you call to just the mountains where you don't know where the elk are exactly or as opposed to like if you've got a bull coming in or that you think it's coming in you're working in my guess. I mean, it's such a multi facinating question. If you're just trying to blind call, you might start out trying to call it quiet, you know, and then start sounding like I heard. And I think a lot of times a lot of people like to sit in one spot. But you're trying to call before the sun comes up as you're moving up the hill, and you're like, you've got a spot in mind where you want to finish that scenario. Like that's a pretty good tactic that I've used a lot of times, where like you're moving up a ridge, moving up a ridge, and you're gonna get to the top right at dawn and hopefully those bulls have been here and you're coming up the hill and it sounds really a stick. So you're not sitting in one spot just calling over and over and over and over again. That's a realistic scenario, right, Like they start out low feeding and they kind of hit high. They'll be moving up the ridge. I mean, it just depends a lot of times. Sometimes they'll be up above tree line and they'll be moving back down at at dawn. You know, But um, if you got a bull that you've been working It really just depends on what kind of situation is. I mean, if he's coming in screaming, if you can get him like gobbler coming in and he's gobbling, then I'll quickly change the tactics so to trying to just you know, I got him coming, I want to mess it up. Just give him enough noise now to keep him coming into your into bow range. So whereas if you've got like a herd bull and you're and you know, you were ninety yards on him and you got cows all around him, you know, I might just start bugling my head off and then trying sound like turning of her around and blow a cow cow sound away from him to sound like I got in between his cow and him. How how often do you feel like um that bowl take off with his cows as opposed to coming at you if you've gotten in close enough. You know, it just depends on what kind of bullet is to you know, if you got it in on like a this one bull was about a two eight he herd bull, you know, like just a six by six, but on the over the counter, you know, he's probably one of the bigger bulls on the mountain. Yeah, but I mean that's just the tactic that would change to where I'm like trying and challenge that bowl. You know, I'm bugling and trying to pretend like I got in between him and his cows. So how close is is the how close do you ideally want to be before you call? Man, I've called it elcot a million different ranges. But um, if you know where they are, Like let's say you glassed up I heard, and you're trying to get in on them, I mean sometimes you might be better off not to call. If you can sit in the spot and you know where they're going to come through, then why give your position away? That ain't how you sell elk calls, Dude, I know calls, but I mean like you trying to help you kill it olk. Yeah, appreciate that the best taxis is to put out trail camera at different wallows and get pictures of a bull coming in. If you got to do the law of averages, if you get a bull coming in once a week at that spot, and if you've got the discipline to sit there all day for seven days, you will probably kill an elk as long as the windstays right. Man, I would really like the people don't want to people don't want to hunt like that. Though. Yeah, I would really like to dive into the wall of stuff if you've got some experience with that, because I've done it just a sparse amount, and uh, I've got the patience for it, you know, my wattail hunter. So it's a thing I can do. Uh, But I don't quite understand it. And don't I guess it, don't you know how in white tail, like there's beds and scrapes and all this stuff and you kind of know how they use them specifically um ilk. As far as far as like knowing what direction they approach them and what time of day they're gonna hit them and all that kind of stuff, I'm not really that sure. So can you kind of just give us a wallow hunting one on one? Well, I'll be honest with you. I I don't like sitting still in the elk woods, you know, I much prefer to call them into while I have sat and wallows. I just know that that's a really good technique because I've I've talked to people that have done it. You know, where they're the elk will probably come in there. I mean, I put law trail cameras on wallows in the early afternoon, three or four o'clock. You know, they might come in there right after dawn, but they'll hit those wallo was the first part of the season, and you know they really want to go in there and pee on themselves and get all stinky. Like I said, putting a trail camera there and having pictures of bulls at the wallow, we'll give you the motivation. I want to sit there as long as you're gonna have to sit there because you can sit there for a couple of days and see nothing. You know, I've done that. It's it's tough. You know, you see is a flock of turkeys come through, you get kind of kind of bored. Here's the thing with walls I don't understand is that you know in the Elk woods, thermals or something you're always concerned with, Well, if you're sitting on a wallow all day, then your wind is going to blow different directions all day long. Yeah, So is it is it really advantageous to sit all day or should you figure out like the more optimal times and go sit the wall they wallow? Then that why you're not just you know, winding the whole mountain. Well, you just don't know when he's gonna show up. And then you have your camera sitting there and you were there, and I've had a lot of friends, you know, he's like, why she just sat my wall yesterday? I had that bool come in. Yeah, but that's the most unpredictable part of it, you know, in the evening is is it pretty decent? Pet? But I've tracked elk through the snow that went to the wallow right after dawn lots of times, you know, during the rifle season. So yeah, they're just probably drinking. But yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I didn't realize they wallowed that late in the season, you know, I don't. I've never had a riffle tag for alcohol. Was an archery hunted, you know that much about it. But I figured once it got cold, they didn't really want to be swimming around too much, damn know. I mean he's old Elker from Siberia originally, so they don't tend to get cold like we do. I guarantee that. Yeah. Yeah, man, they're thick, thick hides. You know. That's one of the things I learned when I killed My first one is that you need a knife sharpener with you whenever you go to butcher and elk. You know, it's just like twice as stick as a football skin, you know, trying to cut off the back of an elkscape, you know with a dull knife is a it's not much fun. That's a losing propositions what that is and ain't gonna happen. So, uh, let's talk about a day in the elk woods. Like you've a lot about like the morning and how to strategize for you know, where you want to be and whatnot. But a lot of times there's a situation where like mid day, um, you don't hear anything and you can get kind of down and just want to take a nap for a couple of hours. And sometimes that's a good option because you've been up since four. But you know, like what do you do in mid day to try to kill an elk? Well, mid day can be tough, Like if you know where they're betted, then you can creep into their bed in area, you know, and then that's a pretty effective technique. I think I've killed any elk after nine in the morning, but I know a few few people that have killed him in the betting areas you know later in the day where they were just trail on the herd, trail on the herd, trail on the herd, and finally when they stopped and there's you know where they betted and u you get the cows all bedded down there, all stopped, then you can you can creep in close enough and you know, then you might be able to get that bull stirred up them to come in. So how would you know where they're bedding? Well, if you if you hunt the same spot all the time, Like that's one thing that over that counter guys she should probably hear, is like the more familiar familiar you are with the spot, the more times you go there, you know, if it's a decent spot it holds elk, you'll start to learn whether you go bed you know or at least a likely betting area is where you'll start to figure out where you can glass some you know, if you're hunting a little open more open terrain, if you can glass where they went embedded, then you can get on them mid morning and creep over there, you know, get over close to and wait for him to get up in the evening. But el Khan is such a chest came. There's so many different ways is to skin the cat. It's I mean, yeah, so you said we'll go that you've never killed the bull after nine, I am no. Usually I've I've had really great luck in the morning and the evening. We've called in hel before. But I would say that that first part of the morning where I was at and safe for like the last eight years out own my own business, so I haven't found it really hard to go camp in the woods and hunt all day. So I'd hunt a lot of mornings and go to work. Yeah, so you're just you're just kind of employing that head up the ridge and call your way up there and try to intercept some elk up there most of the time and then rite we're just trying to hike into a spot in the dark, or you know, just there's a million, Like I said, there's a million different ways to do it. They'll come, they'll come downhill, they'll go uphill. It just depends on you know what you got low elk or you got high elk, or just experience of living in the same spot for so long and you know, being so obsessed with it. You start to learn where they you know where they are, and then have a number of spots that you go to and trying to find one. Buglin, Yeah, are you on to talk? Are you really that worried about bumping elk in the dark? You know, like when you're trying to get hike to a spot early in the morning. Not really. I mean you could go walking right through them, But a lot of times, I mean, let's say you're hunting one of the like stay, you're hunting off the interstate somewhere where there's a lot of pressure there. Are you gonna start going towards their beds in the dark? So I mean you might walk in right off the road and bump them, but you're probably hiking an hour before you're getting to where they're gonna be or something. You know, are you I would never have been much worried about bumping them in the dark as much as if if they're talking before shooting light, then I know where they are, and then that's you know, you're either looking for elk or you're hunting them. And most of the time, most people, especially when they first started out, they're just looking for elk. Yeah, I know that feeling for sure. So if you're if you're looking for okays, you're walking into the dark, are you calling it all? M That really depends. I mean, like I said, that's more of a premeditated thing, where like we know elk would be up on these meadows, on these top on top of these ridges, and like we know that the helk might be down lower feet and like you know, in the in the middle of the night and have moved back up. And so I'm just trying to emulate like known patterns of of elk. You know that that I've hunted before. So I wouldn't say I would just go out and hunt in the dark and start calling. But you know there's people that will go out and locate in the dark by bugling, and uh, I don't know. I mean generally, think if you're sitting there and you can hear in bugling and get close and never call at them, then that's you know, then you've gotten close enough to where you can then start considering on how to use your elk calls. But what happens if you have you ever showed up to early? You know what I mean, Like, you you show up, you hear some elk, you start working towards them and you get in the mix before shooting lot. Actually, I haven't had that happen um, just not that I know where we got barked at or anything, but I mean I've camped in the wrong spot. Yeah. Well, I mean you can hear them bark at you in the middle of the night and you're like, damn it. Yeah, you know what I mean, Like we're camping this maybe we shouldn't camp in this spot anymore. You know, because I used to hunt when I first started, we would go like eight or ten miles deep and say in the back country for the first week every season, and you know, you just learned a lot about camping in the back country where you're gonna put your tent because you got the look in the basin that you're hunting, and then you blow them out in the middle of night because you put your tent a dumb spot where you probably won't do that again. Yeah. So so okay, So if you haven't gotten in the mix before it was shooting, lot is like, how do you you obviously you're ngaging that pretty well, how do you how do you make sure I mean, are you just basically staying below them coming up till it was it turns it on basically. Yeah, I mean, like like what I'm talking I shot at six by six in over the counter Union in Colorado, and we were coming up the coming up the mountain, you know. And I mean I'm not talking about going out like three in the morning and calling, but like forty five minutes before shooting light, as we're hiking up the ridge, you know, stop and do a couple of cows sound, a couple of cow trips, you know, between me and my body, back and forth. And then we move up the hill a couple hundred yards and do the same thing and then hopefully where we think the elk are gonna be is where we're getting to right at shooting light. M hm. So and I didn't, I mean, we called in three the three bulls that morning. The first one came in, I shot him, and two more came in. And he didn't have a tag a rifle hunt that year and just filming and um yeah, yeah, that's detrimental. Man. So you're talking about, you know, hiking up and whatnot. Um, it sounds like that's kind of the stereotypical elk unit where you've got high country tree line and a mountain peak. But there's some places where it's just like you know, they might top out not eight or something like that. Uh, the things change a lot whenever you're you know, you're hunting Union like that. It's more like that rolling stuff with a lot of aspens and oak versus you know, the traditional mountain area. I still think they're more likely to go up to bed. Yeah, but let's say, okay, hunt and Unit sixty one, some of those elk will come up on top and the middle of the night and then they would work their way back down on the side of the mountain. But I think where they mean A good tip for finding on where they're gonna bed is they like to bed where you don't want to pack them out of. So I mean, if you could look at a unit and start looking at a map and just start picking it apart by looking at like that, like where do I not I want to pack an elk from there? Will probably be out there during your hunt. Yeah. Yeah, what's crazy is how relative that is too. He got one of these O T C units that's got roads all over the place. Well, people are relatively lazy, so you know, if it's a place where there's only a few places you can get one mile from a road, that's where the elk are going to because people don't go there, And you can take that and throw it in the back country. You know. If it's pretty common for people to walk five miles back in, well those elk aren't gonna be there, you know. And it's just like it's so weird how well this distance is one thing. But I think as as I've elk on for such a long time, people have gotten crazy. I mean, like everybody is nuts about going way deep in the back country these days. And so if I'm looking at it, I'm looking at like what's steep and nasty, and it might be right next to the road, you know. Like let's say there's a road on top of a ridge and you've got to drop down a significant steep slope to get to where you think the elk car. That's great because most people are not gonna want to go down there and then pack the back up hill. Yeah. So that's one of my favorite places to find elk is start up high and go down to where you you literally have to bring him back up. You know, if hunted step and nasty a little bit, and uh sometimes in the bottom of those things they're just not really uh there's not elk habitat, uh, you know, and it's it's kind of bat me the butt before because you're like, crap, you just dedicated, you know, a couple of hours to do a death hike and now there's nothing down here. Um. But there's like these parallel paralleling trails, you know, like ilk are kind of up on the sides and stuff. But it didn't seem like you spent a lot of time there is that a thing. I mean, this would be in the aspens where you got some intermingled betting areas, you know, and then those kind of spots, I mean they have a lot of feet in them. Yeah, And uh so that's what you're looking for on on a map, not so much just a death canyon, but like a spot it's tough to get too, but it has like some good stuff in it. Yeah, Like it's got you know, maybe like a couple of benches about halfway down the mountain where there's a bunch of ponds and swamps and stuff, and it's good habitat for the elk, and you know, and if that spots halfway in between the two access points. And that's another thing that, like you said, if you're looking at a map and you find the hardest spots to get to you, well, generally people are lazy. Generally, I'm pretty lazy about six months of the year, and then I have to run a lot to get ready for elk season. So you know, they're the laziness kind of change and it's a lot. I think it's a White Taylor thing. You know, you work real hard to get in shape for elk and then all wait tail season you sit on your button eat twinkies. So it's got kind of tough. How did you how did you gain the love for white tail hunting? Man? Then I grew up in Maryland and like, I literally was not allowed to hunt, and I had some buddies at hunting white tails, and uh so I went to Wisconsin and I started on the mule deer of the Bow. And then you know, you watched any hunt show and you're like, man, you see this white tail stuff all the time, So I was always curious about it. And then I went to Wisconsin and we hunted for three weeks straight and I only sold one buck. And I was just like, damn, this is hard, you know, and his eyes fell in love with it because it was hard, at least for me not knowing. Like you know, mule Dere is about like sheer willpower, perhaps maybe some luck, but like the harder you're willing to work, the lucky you're probably gonna get, and white tails like it's more chess like the buck I shot here in Kansas last year. I stopped talking all the time and just waited until it was perfect, you know. And I'm like, well, if I don't mean, if I'm not getting daytime pictures of books, I'm gonna stay out of there. Then I'm gonna wait until the winds perfect. I got pictures and I got good intelligence, and then I'll go sit you know. So I mean that's a it's a huge learning curve to get into it, and like you know, the first couple of years I didn't do very well. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was all. It's cool, man, it's a lot of fun. I know what you mean about the struggle. You know, we hunt a lot of public land in Texas and it's the same kind of thing like you're talking about Wisconsin, where you don't see a lot of dear and you really, you know, I'm not the kind of guy who likes to waste a lot of time. You know, I can be tracient, but like, if you don't like to waste time, you've got to really put some thought into stuff, you know. And that kind of relates back to elkinings too. You know, you gotta figure out the game that you're hunting and figure out their tendencies and what they do, because I mean, anybody can go, you know, bowhawking, you know, and that's fun because I did a lot of it when I started. Yeah, I think that's how you learn. And and and it's like turkey hunting, Like I've been very young for a long time, but when I started making turkey calls and started turkey hunting a ton, I mean, it was just the more the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Almost the more fun it would get. Like I used to tell people that was skiing, like skin is fun, but if you're really good at it, it's really fun. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not really good at it, so I've had just minimal fun. But it is fun though. It's it's a cool thing. But I always tell people. There's a reason I was born where there wasn't light stuff on the ground, So it's fine. Yeah, but you aren't either, but you found it. Yeah. I still like snow, but after twenty years up there, I mean, I'll skip it if it's an option. Yeah, yeah, yeah, stick to the tubes at the at the resorts and stuff, you know. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I just don't. I started getting a little bit frustrated because I started watching the wildlife disappear in the Vale Valley or where I was living at, and a lot of those resort towns where right record they put everything is recreation first and wildlife second. And when you start losing your elk, starts to be like, man, this is a real turn off to this ski and thing. You know, there's a there's some studies going on. I can't remember who's doing it, but like some of that stuff in the front range, they get so much recreational pressure pressure, you know, and uh, they're starting to see some like real effects of just hikers on you know, seasonal patterns of elk and big horns and goats and stuff, and it's it's kind of crazy. Well, they need some seclusion, you know, especially when they're cabin or they're trying to spend the winter, and you know, if there's nowhere left for them to be left alone, then they're you know, elk In particularly vulnerable to that. Yeah. Yeah, And then you know, you get the habitat all screwed up, where you got all these big sprawl and second homeowner neighborhoods crawling with mountain lions and one can hunt in there. You know. So one of the buddy of mine was skiing down one of the ski runs that one of the resorts up there and came across the mountain lion jaws the jaws, and there's blood everywhere, and so one of the tom's that killed another one and just devoured him. And that's how like, you know, they got all these cats, and they got all these bears. They're eating all these calves, and then the oak population plummets, yeah, you know, and then they've got nothing to eat, so they started eating each other. It's nuts, man, And and it's kind of weird, how um Colorado. You know, I don't I don't want to be too critical of anybody, but it's it's a shame that they've done what they have to the predator seasons and stuff, you know, because if you if you value wildlife, then you're gonna understand that, you know, responsible take is a part of wildlife management. So well, I hope they start paying a little more attention to it. I mean, I noticed that the turkey season this year was the biggest turkey season that you know, and there was more turkey owners in many states than there ever has been. And I noticed that the Idaho Idaho is sold out of ELK tags earlier than they ever have nonresident over the counter tags, and Wyoming was up a hundred thousand and there on their applications for elk hundred thousand. Oh yeah, it's gonnaly getting real popular because I mean, beefs like crazy prices at the grocery store. Have you got a chance to go put you know, put forty two bucks down on the ELK tag. Yeah, it was a pretty safe gamb Sign me up for forty dollar ELK tag. For resident you can get forty bulltag. I think that's what it is. Yeah, for us, it's gonna be I think six eight two this year's nine something like that. It's kind of kind of nuts. But Tyler actually was a victim of that. This year he applied for a unit that last year Drew drew it a hundred percent for his his amount of points and he didn't get drawn, you know, so it was up for sure. It's it's kind of crazy. Last year was up. This year, I think it was up, so you know, it's gonna get it more popular. That's a good thing. Maybe they should pay more attention to it instead of blatantly mismanging it. Yeah, that is a dang good point. Um. Are you heading out west this year? Yeah, I'm gonna go to Colorado. I've been talking called my buddies and I mean Tim Wheeling. Last year, my daughter was born September eleven, so yeah, yeah, I got married November nineteen, so I understand, like, you know, just having family things that interrupt. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It wouldn't change it for the world, but it was terrible strategicy, you know. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well this year, Alfully you can get into it. Man, we'll probably be hitting up there too. And uh uh different in the country. We used to try to hunt OTC if we don't get drawn away. Last year I drew at HELIOTAG So that was that was sick, you know, but hunting some hunting some of those units and called right over they're less points. I mean I somewhat wish that that had been my strategy the whole time along. Yeah, you know, saving up all those points for all those years I never hunted anywhere good, you know, I mean you get the opportunity to hunt, and that's great, and that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, one or two point unit might might make the difference in just having a higher bull cow ratio, more elk talking, you know, more bang for your buck if you want to hunt from if you're coming up from Texas, put in for two three years and you're gonna have a better hunt, Yeah for sure. You know. On that note, if you want to leave some people with some positivity, like what's a good a good strategy for them to find a decent unit to go hunt, man, I think it just depends on your fitness level, you know, don't yourself in over your head. If you're a fitter guy, you might pick some of the bigger mountain you know, bigger terrain. But if you can hunt somewhere where it's a little bit more mellower train maybe out on the western slope somewhere and just kind of go with what you're you know, physical ability would be yeah, maybe a little bit. But I mean there's some really good units out by out on the western slope. Yeah, you almost give it away. One of my friends invariably lives in one of those units or something somebody that are sold something too. But a lot of people do really well out there in the in the oak brush country and um, you know where it's not maybe as big a mountains. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Man. Well cool stuff, dude, if somebody wants to check out an elk reel for this season or what do y'all call your bagle tubes, because those are kind of cool. They're like collapsible. Yeah, they're extendable. That's that's that tube. Um actually call it the anti tank missile bugle. I like it. Take out the horrible, but it's a it's an awesome bite and blow bugle. You can get. Also, you can get one of our three D diaphragms. I have a pretty high palette in my mouth, so like, I don't really I can play a regular diaphragm. But there was a reason I never really liked him. They just don't fit me. You know, So I make something for somebody with a higher palette, and I'll probably transfer that technology to to making some lower profile calls at some point. But I'm so busy, you know, I've been working on a goose call. I sold more Turkey calls this year than I ever have. So what what is it like? Um? Gonna be like a snow goose or something. No, I mean, I mean it's a Canada goose call. That's all I've ever hunted. Um, it just uses it uses a triple nitrial read and it kind of looks like my Elk call, but it's a lot wider. Anyways, I kill a lot of geese for the last year. It Uh, it feels a pretty cool niche where you know, short reads are awesome and they're really loud, but they don't get quiet and sound very realistic as at least that's what I was trying to go for. So I got a call that you can get from a really soft call to you know, like a medium hi volume with that's really accurate to geese. Yeah, yeah, what about the Wattau guy for the white Tail? I make it doubly and you'd have to try it on white Tail to believe how effective it is. I'm actually sold out of it. We'll probably start making some more in the middle of the summer um. But like I said, I get so busy with all this stuff that I make that it's almost like all I can do to keep up with. Are you making every call by hand yourself? We do a lot of stuff with C and C and three D printing, Yeah, but all of our calls is like I mean, I'm just trying to do something different, where like everything's hand done and tuned and it's not mass produced. So you know, what you're getting is something that more than likely I assembled it and tested it and probably tested it twice or three times, and so you're getting like a really good quality. Problem of mouth has been on everything that do we do. Ring some off, let it go, give ut it. You would want me to send you something that doesn't sound good. That's true. That's true. You used to be tested for COVID too before you just just playing. We've been pretty lucky here. We didn't have a single case of COVID in our county in Kansas, which is been kind of fortunate. Yeah, because you all haven't havn't congregated out here. Yeah. Yeah, out of three, you know you were out of three is pretty good. Yeah, there's been in a good spot to be in during this whole mess, because I don't know, if we had stayed in Colorado, there was no way I could have kept selling turkey calls. Yeah, man, for sure. Well I'm glad. I'm glad things are going so good for you, and I hope you'll stay safe. What's what's y'all's website? It's a real Game Calls dot com And that's real, like a fishing reel. Yeah, yeah, because you're bringing them in right man, that's what it does. Either ELK real or ELK magnet, because that's what does. Yeah, that's cool man. Well, we appreciate the time, dude, and good luck this season. Yeah you guys to hope you guys keep up there in the mountains and uh guys have a good hunt. All right, appreciate it man. Well how I would you letter? Dude? Now, that was some killer info. Don't forget to subscribe in A five star review means a ton to us. Remember, this is your element living in

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