00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Tyler and and you're listening to the Elving Blake Show, So cune on what's happening on my woods people. I am the white tailed weather man and I'm not giving a report today because it is pitch black outside right. I don't know. I can barely see anything out there. Um, we just we're on the phone for two hours and fifteen minutes chatting with our guests today. Jason read from Timmer Ninja. Cool dude, very experienced when it comes to mobile hunting and the things surrounding the the Uh, you know, all the different aspects of mobile hunting, all the mods, all the sticks, all the stands, climbing methods, rock climbing, what else case see anything else? All the stick bost stickost all that stuff. Man, Like, Jason's cool. Uh this first time I've talked to him. You talked to him the phone a few times, but um, he uh, he's the purest without being a snob, you know what I mean. And that's a good place to be because that's a guy you can learn a lot from. Yeah, you can be public Land's proud without you know, it's kind of like waiting the flag. You can also be a crossfitter with everybody. You can people without telling everybody. Yeah, yeah, what's the what's the thing right now? I guess Oh, you can be vaccinated and not tell everybody that's the thing right now. But you don't have to take a selfie video you getting the shot in your arm, which, by the way, I'm not gonna watch because I hate watching people get shots. I don't like getting shots. Yeah, so we're getting shot. I don't know. No, I've been shot with a with a shotgun before, do you know that? I think so? Yeahinely, Yeah, it's peppered pretty much. I feel like from and in ten, Texas, guys have got a little bit of led shot in him. I'd imagine. I bet that's the over and under led shot. That's right, that's right. Well, we uh we um are still trying to think about doing some turkey hunting, but man, it's just tough. So I don't know if it's gonna happen or not. The turkeys are so far from us, like I almost have just rather sit around here and come up with better ways to whitetail hunt, you know. And that's kind of why we're doing this podcasting and uh um, last week. We're at least pretty when just Tyler and I that was you know, how to kill a deer in April, which of course we're not shooting him now, I don't go worry, don't call the game wardn't on us. But uh, you know we all how to not kill a deer or a turkey in al That's right, Yeah, we could do that podcast, right. But um, if you're listening and you're a fan of the Element, you you know what we do, you're probably a little bit of white tail nerd. So this is right up your alley, right, yeah it is. Um yeah, I mean Jason knows. He's been doing a long time. He's seen all that things and Tampa was stuff and modificated it and done all that good stuff. He's hunted a lot too. He's he's a pretty hardcore um uh you know public Land get way back hunt the hard country kind of guy. Um, which is exactly opposite us from about November to uh the end of the year, because we start eating cookies. Getting up down them hills ain't easy way back in October, parking lot in late November, so we're like we're over here, like man, we can hunt these three spots. But this one, it's like fifty yards from the parking line and going to that one and stood of the one. That's three cores of them all wherever the deer are, man, that's where we will go. That's pretty much it. Man, that's pretty much it. You know, we're not scared. But uh, anyway, let's get to Jason to talk about some of the things that involve mobile hunting. Alright, So now on the podcast, we've got Jason Red with Timber Ninja. You have been training up in ninja tonight with your with your one of your kids, right, Yeah, I'm just doing nightly jiu jitsu classes tonight. Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna get the energy and discipline into the kid. Are you like, uh do you is this something that you have done as well? Like do you like to be in ninja as well? Yeah? Yeah, I'm martial artists. I guess we'll be the correct ninja ninja on the streets and in the woods. Yeah, that's right. Are you the timber Ninja? Are there many timber Ninjas? I don't know. I've had a lot of people tell me that they had named Timber Ninja, but I have it trademark. So I guess that's what it's like. Man, I had moone collector for that name. I mean, I'm telling you, okay, okay, well you might should have just not been sitting around drinking a beer doing that, and you've actually done something with then Yeah, well that's coold dude. So I didn't know that about you. You and I have talked two times and um, and it's usually just a schooling for me on how to kill big Bucks. I feel like, but we, uh, we haven't gone into the ninja world yet too much, and so that kind of makes sense to me now, you know. I mean, obviously timber ninja makes sense, but like, uh, it really comes full circle. Since you're a martial artist. What kind of yeah, what kind of is a black belt? The highest belt? Yeah, well, technically there's a crimson belt, which you have to there's not really in jiu jitsu anyway. Um, yeah, to be a crimson belt, you essentially it's hard to I don't know if any Americans that have it like you pretty much have to come from Brazilian Brazilian. Yeah, you have to be practicing for like thirty years. I was thinking about to kill somebody I thought was about to say yeah, yeah, and I'm so mediocre at everything, so like I'll never be like at that level. So hell, I mean I did disagree. Man, you gotta you send us some sticks at a pretty slick man, So they're not They're definitely not mediocre, which I guess it's not you, but I mean you're designing them. So but we'll definitely talk a little bit about that. Man. And and um, I appreciate you hopping on with this. Man, Um, how about a quick overview of I mean, we're starting to learn why timer Ninja is kind of what it is, but just talk about I kind of how he came into this and what the what the backstory is a little bit, uh, lead people into why you're developing stuff that you are. Well, I mean essentially I've been I'm forty years old. I've been hunting since I was seven years old. Uh, primarily public land I would say nine percent of my life. Just you know, I grew up really poor and we don't have the opportunity being some hunting glove or lease or anything. So I've always public land hunted and as I got older, I you know, hunted, well. I moved I moved from I grew up in Arkansas, actually not far from you know, the eastern side of Arkansas and the river bottoms of Mississippi Delta. And then I moved to the mountains of North Carolina in two thousand nine, and uh, yeah, I took a little break from being a super serious hunter. I was doing more like endurance sports and rock climbing and stuff like that, and then always hunted, but just wasn't as serious as I was, you know, up until my early twenties. I took a little break, and then I moved to the mountains and got really serious again, and um fun bigger tracks of mountain public and we uh and you know I was using a lot of the gear that was on the market at the time, packing in you know, everything from well starting out younger and mean. I started with everything from three spurs to homemade climbers too, you know the baker stand too, uh, lock on stands with sticks, you know, like lone wolf stuff. And and just didn't playing with gear and tweaking it and hunting and you know the deep mountains, you know, you try to reduce your weight, um just you know, packability wise, you know, like you behind the mountains a lot of times you have packed the deer out, so you come in with the stand. You you want to get as much as you can and you know, at least number of trips. And so I started playing with different gear and uh, different types of materials, and nobody had been doing anything with carbon fibers, uh. And I had some experience of carbon fibers through you know, racing bicycles and you know, climbing and things like that, you know, like ice climbing that uses carbon fiber ice access and uh, you know, used trucking poles that were carbon fiber. And I was just wondering when a boy's made sticks and things like that out of carbon fiber. So I started making prototype stuff for myself just to make um my kid more efficient and lighter weight and less noise and things like that. And then you know, fast forward until last year, I started you know, Timber nine Outdoors where you know, we're mobile hunting products company and we make stuff primarily with carbon fiber, but we do offer aluminum versions just to have a little bit more budget friendly product offering. But yeah, it's kind of how I got into the space that I'm in. Yeah, that's cool, dude. So did you hunt You said you moved to the mountains in North Carolina? Is did you did you hunt deer out there or uh was that just kind of where you resided for a few years. Um, I got relocated out here for work, and UM I came out and you know, I got casually hunting when I first got here. I mean had a newborn when we got here, and I was just hunting for meat. You know, I did a lot of trophy hunting my teenage years through high school and my early twinings, and then kind of, you know, like I said, I got into the enduring stuff. I just meet hunting and I got up here and um started hunting the mountains and kind of fell in love with it. We don't have a really high deer density up here, so um it took me a few years and exploring these back country spots to start finding mature buck sign and mature bucks and really got overwhelmed with you know how much I loved doing that, and kind on that led me into doing it other places and Apple Achians and on the East coast as well. Yeah, what about Brook trout Man, he spent much time catching Now, yeah, I'm a I would be like you know, like a white belt a trout. Okay, I was hoping you were going there. I like it d do some. But my business partner, Jordan's he's a part of Timantage as well. He's uh, he's definitely a high ranking uh fly fisherman. He not Crimson though he's not Crimson, but he's pretty high up there, and he grew up up here. So we have you know, very sought after trout waters up here. But the time for the really good fish, like the big browns of people chases like Turkey seas in in October, which really messes with mine. Dude. That's like, I mean, I've I've always wanted to catch the you know brown's running like in the Red River and out in New Mexico and stuff. That's something I want to do so bad. And then the same thing like on the coast, you know the reds run uh you know in October, and it's like, man, I'm just I will do it one day, but I got a few deer to shoot first, you know what I mean, Like I just and so I'm just not there yet, but uh, I know I've been. I've been over there to uh actually a smoking mountain National Park on North Carolina side before and uh, it was just awesome, dude. Was one of my first was one of the first trips that I've ever made. Were like, um, you know, we were gonna pack stuff in and camp it maybe the first one I ever did. Um, and it was just like I don't I think I might as still being in college and my best friend and my wife and I who you know, were we were all in college or whatever, I guess. We took off and and uh went to the World Aquarium in Atlanta, which is awesome by the way, if somebody's listening hadn't heard that yet, UM, definitely highly recommend that. And then we went up to North Carolina, got into the Smokey Mountain National Park and backpacked in with these gigantic like jan sport backpacks, you know, and uh, we've we've sent streamline things. It's kind of the same story as you have with timber Nana. It's like you know, you you uh, And this is one thing that a lot of people I think should understand when it comes to just hunting, whether it's public land or whether it's like mobile style hunting or like even uh, just you know, going into the back country and spending time fishing or something like that. Like sometimes I mean, you know, let's let's let's be let's put a little caveat here that like, you don't wanna, you don't want to put yourself in a bad situation where you might die or something. But like sometimes you gotta, you gotta go out and do something a few times to learn what you need and where you can, you know, what would make your experience better, you know what I mean. So like, um, a lot of people I feel like are kind of scared to the point where they like, we'll just be inactive and not go do anything, um because they don't feel like they're ever prepared for it, you know. And sometimes you just gotta you just gotta kind of go out there and get in the woods and you have a rainstorm hitchy and come back soaked a day later to the truck, you know, and and then you go, Okay, I see I need a actually an actual waterproof tint, not just one that you bought at Walmart, you know whatever. So oh man, yeah, I mean, well that's you know, how I started doing backpacking stuff is like, you know, I look at what I started with when I mean, I'm not even talking hunting one because I've done a lot of like back country you know, through hikes and stuff like that. That it's like what you start with and what you end up with without after experience is like daylight and dark, you know, like I used to pack canned chili and things like that, you know, like with a crappy pack that it didn't fit me. And just the things you learn and you learn. But over time what it makes you more efficient and to be able and also to be able to stay out there longer. You know, it just changes. But it has to come from experience and you have to do what you said, and you have to pretty much just go. You have to have the desire to want to do it and fail before you can really learn to have a you know, a better experience down the road. And it just it just takes time. Like nobody can, you know, Stole saying, like, you know, you can't give the man a fish, You really got to teach him with fish. And I'm sure I'm sure you guys get that a lot too, you know, having the following you do about people. You know, everybody wants to kill a big buck, but you know the easiest way to kill a big buck. There's no easy way. Uh, there's actually yeah, what you want to go guided, but I say unguided. Yeah, uh. But you know, like it's just time. You gotta put the time in and you gotta be willing to fail. I mean, it's just it's like a martial art technically. Yeah, absolutely, dude. I mean that's it's a man you got, you know. And I think that, like, I think there's a little bit of maybe stubbornness, um that helps a person, Like if a person has that quality. And I say that, you know, like I guess it's not necessarily good quality, but it's a quality that you might have or an attribute of stubbornness that tends to make somebody, uh like for me, you know, like I can play guitar pretty decent, you know, and I can hunting fish pretty decent, I feel like, and that's that's just because I'm hardheaded enough to have stayed with it through all the failures, you know what I mean. Like when I started playing guitar and my fingers hurt so bad, but I was just hardheaded enough to keep going and keep playing and even though it's terrible and had a terrible guitar. It was hard to play, Like, I just kept going, And I think that that's like, um, you know, Casey and I probably now would call it perseverance. But I mean when I was in high school, it was just maybeing hardheaded and stubborn or whatever. You know, learning for a different reasons, you get more wise and you learn how to manage that stubbornness a little bit, I think, you know, and not be a punk to other people, you know, when it comes to when it comes to that part of you know, your life and and your arguments and stuff like at but um, yeah, I mean I think that's a big part of it, is just going, uh, going after something that you think is kind of cool and just going, man, I'm gonna find out what this is about, even if I fail, because I mean, let's be honest, like, what, what have you ever tried that you were successful at right off the bat, you know, consistently? You know, I don't think that most of us would say nothing. Probably you know, there's really nothing there. I mean, it's the law of ten thousand, you know, like you gotta do something ten thousand times technically to become a you know, skip to the level of somewhat of a mastery of it. It's like you with a guitar, Like you played a guitar, but you didn't, you know, Like but even when you have a guitar um you know, a three thousand all the guitar or a hunter Allur guitar, it really doesn't make a difference. Like you're you would play either one of those very well, right, you know, because you've put the time in to learn the skill. Yeah, but you can play everything pays, but you can play that a lot of times. You can play at three thousand guitar, three thousand dollar guitar better than you would play a hundred a hundred dollar guitar, which you kind of like to me, that's kind of edges us into what we're talking about here with timber Ninjin, you know what I mean. Like we've got and I want you to kind of I want you to kind of take off right here with like Okay, let's just start with climbing methods. And you know you mentioned like tree spikes. I guess that's what they're called. Like, you know, I guess those are spikes on your feet or whatever. But like talk about like your evolution of climbing methods, and like where you started, some of the things that you've tried, things that were cumbersome or didn't work right, or you know, for in integrity purposes you didn't like or whatever it might be, and then where you've ended up and what you've created, I guess, yeah, I mean in full disclosure in that you know, certain people are gonna find things that work better from than than it does for others. So like you know, sometimes my experience may may not be someone else's experience, but you know, ultimately, you know what helps us all is confidence, and we have confidence in our system, we're gonna be successful. So I mean, like I mentioned earlier, like when I started hunting when I was young, my mother had a boyfriend that was a lion, and he gave me a set of tree gas you know or tree spike for even call him you know, for climbing poles. He could not give me the whole lineman belt rig and stuff. So pretty much like monkey monkey grip the back of the tree and like you know, spike my way up the tree. Uh. And then you know, at that time, we were just um we would even you know on poet Land, we would put in like preset like UH wedges with plywood in between the wives of trees and just stand up there in between a y like on this platform to bow hunt or a gun hunt, we would build a little stands up there, you know, like the idea of like lock on stands, you know, it really wasn't a thing. Climbing stands, you know, in the eighties were starting to come out, and then you know, not long after that they did had like different types of lock on stands, like the limit lock on limit and different ones like that that essentially just you know, they hung from a chain, you know, no bottom strap, and you know we were getting up there to fet and without safety harnesses back then, because there wasn't a safety harness. You know. The first safety harness that came out was essentially like a seat belt wedding that it was in a loop that went around up under your arms and then attached the tree in the same way. So like I would I don't know anybody personally took a fall on that, but you know I would. I would definitely not want to fall like that, especially now, like you know, I have for fifteen years, I've been a safety consultant for UH Ppe. You know the fall protection specialists, and I see what what an actual fall does too. You know the type of force of generates and you think about falling, you know with some of that kind of crap, what it would do to you have to call it a safety harness is probably a miss number. It keeps you alive, but is gonna be ripped away out of socket? Yeah exactly. Yeah, like you're you're like a real quick experience for like the um the what was it they called? Remember the wrestling movement with the hands behind your shoulders? Uh no, and it bend your arms back. I don't know I can the name, and that I was like a wrestling you know, w W E UM followers, who is your uh staying manly? Staying man Okay. I was expecting Goldberg being from arketas you know, I was waiting for my time. Well, Sid Vicious was from my hometown actually really school my dad. That's yeah. We could spend another two hours talking about Memphis wrestling. But you know my evolution, you know with the tree gas, you know, the problem is and there's a lot of people using them now and um some people are very successful with them. I mean there's things about them at work, and you know, and if it's okay with you, I'm just gonna kind of like talk about these and kind of discuss each one with like what I felt like a pro and a con sounds great if that if that makes sense. Um, So with the gas, you know, like unless you do that, you it takes a lot of practice because you have to leverage, you know, the correct angle in the tree. You have to understand you making sure you get your bite. So like it is very sketchy starting out unless you've been doing unless you're alignment right, you don't understand how to put that body position. And you know, like I said, I wasn't using an alignment's bell. But now if a lineman's belts, it makes a little bit easier. But the issue that you know I experienced back then and like even while I look at now, is you got to pack these things. You put them on the tree, and then they're little Cummerson getting up and down unless you've really had a lot of experience with them. And you get up to the tree and say you're using a saddle platform, or say you carry up a lock on stand with you. You get up there and then you gotta take these things off because you have spike sticking out right, and you guys know how it is like and actually, if you're not a very fit person and very flexible, you know, bending down to take off tree gas and stands kind of cumbersome, right, you know, like especially with you know the days settle up platforms and they're smaller, and you know it's just a little bit more complicated. Well you know, then you decide if you're not like using a rope system to repel off, you've got a down climb, right, and if you've been standing and hunting out a day like so you're doing an all day sit, it's cold, Like your legs, you know, there's not tons of blood flow going to them. So you know how it is, like you said, on an all days sit and you got to walk down a tree at night, like your legs don't feel as strong as they did, you know when you walk to the stand and they got they were warmed up, you know, and U so you know, that's that's a problem. If you're a public land hunter, you really have to check the regulations to make sure that you know, the tree gas are are legal in your state. So that's that's an issue. But you know, the positives of them. They're lightweight, right, I mean essentially like they make them now that are carbons, So you know, you're probably I haven't checked the weight, but you're probably around a pound or so, which would essentially be like one of our sticks. You know, you don't have to carry that with you. And they they're pretty small so you can come in the backpack and things like that. But uh, you know that's the pros and cons of those. And then you know, and then I started doing with the climbing stand for a while because you know, I started doing everything from having my grandfather's buddy that was a um a welder weld up you know, some dangerous contraption that made ridiculous not of noise and made out an angle iron and stuff. I mean, you guys seen them wing nuts and you know hardware store. You notice bolts, uh and no teeth or anything on them. You find those left in the woods. It's because guys like it ain't worries, you know almost Yeah, I came close to Dian they made you know, forty pounds, but but you know, uh lock on, I mean, um, climbing stands evolved you know, like so much through their time, and there's a lot of I mean they're they're still in my opinion, you know, one of the most comfortable things that hunt out of right, like especially if you want we're in the tree lounge era. Do you remember seeing those things? One of those you know, if you're a man, that's a way to go. Yeah, yeah, I mean think about like, you know, like if you have to like semi fear of heights, like getting up there lounging that kind of thing. I never owned one. My grandfather's friend had one and I got up in it. But you know, so things got, you know, in that world, got really comfortable and they're very useful. I mean, like you essentially if you take like a hand climber, well, let me back up, like the old school, like if you had to remember the baker stand. So a baker stand was a super lightweight climbing stand that didn't have a top. You pretty much hugged the tree and then pulled your legs up and and in. You know, there's the introduction of the hand climber. Whereas it wasn't a sit down, stand up type climbing system. It was it was a hand climber, so essentially just you grabbed this side post with your hands and you rest your forearms on the seat pad to climb up and down. And you know the ones that a lone wolf makes want to uh still, the stay I believe in XLP makes one, which they're way more advanced than that. But you know, those got to be pretty light weight. I mean some of those systems were uh you know, off top of my head there were sub ten pounds right so, and they fold up really compact. So it really was made hunting, you know, semi compact with a climbing stand, whereas some of these um sitting down stand up models, you know, they're pretty bulky. You know, you take like a summit which is super comfortable, but it's essentially like a wedge shape, and it's like what do you do with your backpack? You know, Like I went through that stage of hunting public land where you know, take all my gear and put my climbing stand on and stuff actpack you know with all my layers and hike three or four miles and my bows banging up against it, you know, because it was big and bulky and getting Colton brush and stuff like that. But but they are efficient and you know as far as like they're easy to get up a tree, like you know, fairly safe. I mean like it takes a little time to learn climbing what they uh what they climbing stand You know, you gotta make sure you get your angles right at the bottom, you know, I mean you guys have been there, I'm sure like have the your platform angled up in the air so that way it levels out but the narrows yeah yeah, yeah, um, you know, so there's pluses there, But that was one of the negatives, right, like, unless you've been doing it a while and you can look at the tree, like sometimes you're gonna be sitting on an angled platform or seat system. I mean usually just a platform because you get adjustures your seat system once you're up there, because you still have the platform or stand on. Um. But you know, another negative you know that I ran into with my climbing stands was you had to have a pretty slick tree with no cover, right um, And which is if you hunt a lot of places, like it's like with a lot of systems out there, you end up having to hunt for the tree, um more than the actually the trail that have set up, you know, like it was more more a problem finding a correct tree to hunt out a UM and you know, but it works really good in pine country and things like that where you can get you know, thirty ft up the pine tree before you hit a limb. Um, so you know, the climbing stand and you know, and we were talking about carbon fiber. You know, Old Man actually came out with the carbon fiber climbing stand back in the ninth the nineties or two thousands, so they were actually the first people to have a carbon fiber uh you know uh what I call at high whitetail product UM which their stands were pretty awesome to like I failed to mention them. You know, they were pretty efficient for you know, even their traditional models. But so you know, those systems, you know, they work well. And there's a lot of guys that still use UM climbing stands. And probably when we use the climbing stands of the day, they die. But there's a lot of we come across a lot of people that still are climbing where we live. One out of every hundred trees is work for that too. You know. It's kind of crazy that you still do. Yeah, I mean and and like there's so much safer than they were, you know, back in the early days. You know, I mean with these rubber straps, they bite so well and adjustments, like there's a place for him. And I'm sure you're gonna see some modern advancement in that space. You know. I'm not saying that something we're going to do, but like I guarantee, there's so many people chasing dollars out there that you'll see some more advancements and climbing stands. I was. I was king actually actually an arc saw one time out of a climber and I was up pretty high in the pine tree like you mentioned, and um, I had a two forty three and I, um, it was like really cold that morning, and one of those mornings where it's like real still, you know, it's frosty, and um, I go to I it took me a while, like you said, to find the tree that I was gonna get in. So I got up there kind of right after daylight, and I start pulling my two forty three up on my poll rope, you know, and I get it almost to the top and that rope just snaps and my gun went barreled down into the mud like a foot deep. Dude, it's stuck barreled down. And I said, okay, I'm done hunting. It was terrible, man, terrible. Well, there's been guys that have died that way. Yeah, folks, not proper you know, practicing proper gun safety and having a loaded gun and pull another tree and drop it or you know something, you know, snacker branch, pull the trigger and shoot themselves. So like it's it's the real deal, sad deal man. But that doesn't necessarily have to do with climate stand too much. But I just story, Yeah, so what what else? What else we look at out there? Well, I mean, you know, the most common, you know, it's to the in today's world for mobile hunting is the sticks and a lock on stand. I mean, you know, saddle hunting that's taken off, but it's still a really it's still not the market share that a lock on stand and sticks is, you know, like, but I mean it's it's growing rapidly and it's here to stay, regardless of anybody wants to think, like, there's a lot of advantages of it. But you know, the most common would be the sticks and a block on stand, which you know, if you look back and story, you know, there's a lot of people have done a lot of different things. But really, you know, Lone Wolf with Andrea Aquisto really like set the bar pretty well when he introduced some of the products that he did. You know, like he did a phenomenal job of making a cool packable mobile hunting system. Um, and really start that trend. So you know, and that method is essentially you know, you have multiple sticks you attached to a tree with different types of attachment methods, and you get up to your hunting height and then you either have carried up your stand or you pull it up with a rope and you set your lock on stand. Um. And you know, we can start with the sticks. I mean the sticks, you have so many variations. I mean predominantly nine of them are made out of aluminum, you know. I mean there's I don't know if I don't know if any pure steel ones, right, I mean, it's m mostly all aluminum products. You know, people have single step or double steps, um. They attached them with you know, started primarily everything was attached with a cam buckle. But you know a lot of people started using like myself started using like a rope to get away from the cam buckle. Uh. And you know now there's people making daisy chains out of am still. Um, they're using daisy chains now and nonline webbing and things like that. Since we're there for a second, can you explain what that is when there's some terms like this that we'll all kind of use and kind of know what they mean. But you know, uh, there's all sorts that that that listening they're learning, you know from a guy like you. So can you explain like what am still and daisy chain stuff like that is. Yeah, so you know everybody's I guess familiar with what a cam buckle is. It's just a niline strap with the camming metal device that you put a loop around. You have two loops on it. One goes on a versa button, which is button on a stick you wrap around a tree, put the other loop on, you pull the cambuckle strap down. It's you know, like a cargo control. Well, then you have what we call a lot of people called the rope mod uh, which is essentially used anywhere from a six to eight millimeter static rope and you have an eye and one end uh attaches the versts button you come around the tree, and then you use whatever type of you know, hitch type to attach the rope to the button on that other side. I use a not called a cow hitch, which is a you know, there's a few different names in it, but it's essentially two half hitches that are ran the same, same or opposite way to where your tails go down. And essentially, you know, it pulls itself tight on those hitches to where the rope, that rope doesn't slip. Uh. And then and then you have people that use these what they called daisy chains. Uh. And you know some people use and steel, and steel became a a very common product in the mobile hunting white tail space. Uh, mainly I mean saddle hunters. I would say probably really started that and they started using this type of It's essentially a braided UM, a braided polyethylene based um fiber rope. So you know, it's like um like dynema spectra, it's it's it's it's a polyethylene based rope that's really high UM. It's high strength and high abrasion resistance, so essentially abrasions like wearing tear. It takes a while to break it down and they take and they're able to weave in because it's a braided rope. You can take like a what they call a fid uh. It's essentially like a needle, and you can braid it, you know, take your eye and make an eye and break your tail back through and even sheath it, you know, hot your tail back into the actual break um rope itself. But you can make daisy chains, which are a little loops based out at various distances to make loops to where you can attach those to the versta button you on how large the tree is. So essentially, you know, most of us use around a seven ft length of attachment method regardless of what it is. Well, that daisy chain would have them um space periodically in that seven foot So you know, the trees, you know, you just get as tight as you can. The problem that you run into with those is that you know, you know they're never gonna be perfect. You know, well sometimes they could be perfect, but a lot of times you know they won't be and you may be off, you may be off a half half a length so you have a little bit more slack and so you know, and I talked about this in one of our videos on YouTube about proud of properly climb a tree is that when people, you know, one of the common safety hazards and accidents that happen with climbing sticks is kick out, right. I mean, I'm sure anybody is hunted with climbing stick has had at some point in their career if they've done and they've had a stick kick out, and a lot of times what causes that is that the angle of how you attach your rope is too high, it's not in level with the versa button. And there's also people that have modited their sticks improperly or maybe a manufactor remember properly where the versa button is not set up in the right um the right length on the top of the stick to have it balanced to where it really is going to dig um equally, you know, so it may be weighted less on the bottoms, which can cause kickout, you know, essentially, like you know, I don't care about it's not really a trade secret secret. What I've found to be the best versa button placement is about a third the top third of the stick, you know, so a third down tends to be the most effective that I've found. So anyway, what you really want to have is when you wrap your attachment method around the tree, you want to be as in line with that versa button as possible. Like if your if your rope is angled up to a degreed where let's say it's in the line, you know, like it's biting around the back of the tree around where you're step or even higher, is that's gonna put less bite down the bottom of the stick and can cause kick out. So if if if you're a little long in your daisy chain, it's going to cause the angle to be higher. Right, So, like there's all these you know, there's instances where that's happened, um, when it's caused people to have accidents. I mean, there's certain ways that you can fix that, you know, Like I know guys that use them, and when they have that problem, they'll like take their stick kind of off the tree and you know, turning it at ninety um at an angle essentially until so so it takes off some of that pressure, allows him get that extra like let's say half inch to get that next daisy to make it tighter, and then they have to turn their stick, you know, either clockwise or counterclockwise for it to you know, bite down and it's and it and it does. You know, when that can work out, it creates a pretty good fight. But that's a lot of work and you know potentially, you know a lot of what I call fiddle factor that I don't want to deal with. Yeah, more motion and more sound in the tree at that point in time. Yeah, yeah, I like fiddle factor. Man, I don't have to use that. We'll steal that. It sounds like something Joe Rogan was the host of back in the day as before the Yeah that was that was a country of music, uh, sing off things that it was. Yeah, but you know, and then that daisy chain people also make them out of webbing as well. Um, so you know they're just using no one webbing and sewing daisy chain eyes in it to function the same way that we talked about the and still version is. But a lot of guys like them, you know, I mean it's it's lightweight, and some of them find it's efficient so they don't have to worry about time and not you don't have to worry about untying and not, which in my opinion, Uh, the most efficient for me is using the rope method because no matter the size of the tree, I can always get as tight as I want on the first go around and't have to think about it. And I've tied those types of not so many times. I can do it with one hand, you know, like it just in advance, and then coming down the tree had to loosen up the stick and take the pressure off and not and I can undo it and you know you're ready to roll um and either one of those methods, though there's a lot more white weight than a cam buckle, I mean the weight and the cam buckles the metal actual caming device, you know, And and it also causes an issue of you know, noise, I mean, noise is a big key and you know, being a stealthy say it quiet. But with any of those road type methods or daisy chains made out of m still or the webbing, you know, you don't have that metallic issue that can happen. And obviously if you're using a aluminum or metal stick, metal and metal makes a louder noise, correct, you know. So yeah, you know the one thing that the cambuckle does like and this is you know the exception, not the rule. But if you're hunting a place like maybe some of the places in the western part of the US, you know, or western Midwest or whatever. We're cotton woods or big oak trees or a thing. Um, sometimes it's hard to get the rope slung all the way around the tree. And whenever you have a cambuckle, you have weight to get that thing around. You know, if you if you say you have a tree that's you know, four foot in diameter plus some you know, a big tree like that, That's the one thing where I've seen where like it's kind of nice to have that weight. Is I guess you could probably time not in the end of your rope and maybe kind of circumvent that a little bit. Oh absolutely that, I mean that's a great point. Uh. You know in areas where you have these bigger trees, like it is a pain in the butt trying to throw a you know, I use a six millimeter rope and yeah, that little thing's feather light, so you're not Sometimes I've done it. I've I've run in this issue, uh and end up throwing the stick around the tree as opposed to throwing the rope. You ever do that, Yeah, it's kind of loud, but you know, if you if you're running that situation. You know that stickwaghs enough you can fling it around. Um, yeah, so it's a I guess that. Well, it's not the most ninja of things. That's why it's much more the uh I'm my family is from Norway or a part of it, so we're more the berzerker Viking cop you know what I mean. So we're not getting as much ninja. Ng it's a lot more hacking with huge axes. Even that is a good point about that. I mean you definitely that is the beauty of the cam buckle, as you can use it as a little bit of a way to get it around because I tend to not find myself in big trees anymore. Like I can't tell you the last time I find a really big tree, but I remember trying to grip around something monstrosities and that the buckle definitely helps. Yeah, and you're right to you know if you and I'm sure you kind of getting this, but like as you move towards saddle hunting, you end up in like leg sized trees or less, you know what I mean, You end up in small trees just because you're not as concerned with finding the perfect entree. Yeah, exactly, like you can get into what you want. And yeah, I mean, you know, I think Red Guarfrey said, you know, like when they were started telling or whatever, when he did a video one time, it was like basketball size and unders uh perfect. And that's what I found myself too, is like and I mean most of places I hunt, I hunt small stuff. I mean, like because I'm usually really thick betting and stuff like that, where small stuff is um. But yeah, but you know, I mean there's so many ways the skin of cat, you know, with the sticks. You know, you have people that use uh, you know, single step or double step. You know, I used the single steps for years with no issues. And I mean full disclosure, I didn't start using Alignment's belt like a year and a half ago. Hey, we we might be with you on that. I'm not. I can't really say whether it's always it's always on the body nowadays, but there's certain times where like it's safer to not have a thing around a tree, you know what I mean. Yeah, so I get you. I mean I would just you know, like I'm comfortable with my body and physical capabilities, like I would climb in I would when I was like set another stick or you know, people were like the beauty of alignments belt you can go hands free, which is absolutely right, but I was like I've always been hands free. I would hook the tree with my leg up, my leg that wasn't on the stick, and I felt very confident that I'm not going anywhere. Okay, legs built like six mill xactly sometimes have a can buck or end of it. But you probably know the move to like this probably isn't very uh you know, function or whatever these days. But you take a stick like you're talking about, you know, like a double sided two stepper kind of like what your carbon sticks are. I guess you have three steppers, but anyways, you hook your your boot heels into the bottom step and then you put the top step behind your knees and then you just locked in their hands free, you know. Yeah, it wasn't yeah, yeah, Or when I had this single stuff, I just like would have one foot on and then take my you know, let's say I'm all right my foot on, then I would wrap my left leg around the tree. Like That's how I cameras all the time, I promise you, you know, that's just the way, you know, Yeah, we're man take so we run into what Casey and I call YouTube police a lot where you know, they'll find something in your video that you're not doing the right way or it's dan dangerous or whatever, you know. And uh, but then you if you were to go watch like ridiculousness and some guys like jumping a ramp off of his roof or something, you know, like nobody says, man, you know, you really need to have that uh, you know, ramps bolted into your rooftop or something like, nobody cares they're there to watch a guy wreck, you know. So to me, you know, and I always this is kind of my point, and I'm not trying to promote being reckless at all, but like at some point, like living life, you will die at some point, and and you also are always under some kind of threat, right, you know, Like we drive vehicles. Nobody nobody ever says, man, you shouldn't drive a vehicle down that two lane road, you know, Like nobody ever says that to me. But the matter of the fact is I'm driving sixty past another guy who's driving sixty or seventy, and we're literally passing within two and a half feet of each other and you're both looking at your phones three day. Yeah. Yeah, So it's like, you know, I don't know, there's there's calculated risks, right, and you take your risk and it's your You are your own individual. You are responsible. No government or other person really uh is responsible for you in my opinion. But well exactly, I mean, you have to you have to understand what your capabilities are to make those calculated risks, like you know, like we talked in rock climbing, it's like, you know, if your traditional rock climbing in your places, placing pieces of gear into cracks and weaknesses and rocks to hold your life, like you you're the one that has to make that decision and what your comfort level is and what your experience is doing that. I mean, so you know, and I you know, I want everybody to be safe. And and that is a problem that we run into, is that there's a lot of people out there that are new with some of these things in the hunting sector, and and the essentially the only thing they rely upon is the YouTubers. And some of these YouTube people are getting out there and they've only been doing it for a short period of time themselves. But now they're educating people and like some of them are not even done something long you know, in season yet they just started doing it last week. But now they're making a YouTube video and how to do it. But they really have no background, right, I mean, I hate to come off like being an asshole like that, but that's the truth. You know, Well it's just dangerous. That's what happens when everyone has a platform with you know what I mean, Like everybody has the opportunity, and it's not always about the experience that gets people to the top of the s e ol is. Sometimes it's about the most flash just thumbnail, you know, and all this kind of stuff. So I'm just telling you all right now, like I'm not going to the McDonald's play place and ripping through like diving head first into a slide, but my kids will do that all day. You know. We're just if if I do that at six one and you'll see all the skin come off my back, you know what I mean. When it's like like you said, you have to be like kind of you have to know who you are, what you what your capabilities are. You know, if you're shack, you probably shouldn't get into saddle, you know what I mean, Like it's you're just a big human at that point, Like you probably should just get in the ground line, you know, so you kind of have to know, like you said, what what your what your capabilities are, you know, and what you're comfortable with two you know, like if you are like you mentioned sometimes, uh, you know, I'll tell you this, the first time I've ever got no saddle and try and start to lean back away from the tree you want to talk about, you know, stomach rolling. Man, I was like, oh, this is kind of scary right here. You know, I'm about to lean away from the tree. Like I've never done that in my life. You know, I always leaned towards the tree when I'm up here. So it's a it's a weird feeling. Well, it's like you haven't have to trust your system, and you know you experienced that a lot in rock climbing is like you know, and people, I think a lot of these things would really change when people like started if if hunting took you to heights above twenty ft, Like there's a lot of people that do some things blind recklessly, just based on somebody else's opinion. I mean, like buying products that you know, somebody you know, you and I just decided we'd take our wise um sewing machine and start selling up products that we're going to use it height, you know. And but like to your point, people get a good name and falling because they're you know, they're consistent on you know, Facebook groups or forms or whatever. And you know, nobody has fallen or had a failure yet. And so like everybody's using this product, you know, like there's there's things that I think we all should take in consideration. And and and then like you know, when you start leaning away from that tree like an it settled for the first time, it's what they call exposure because like your hands are you know, you're just relying upon this system. And it's it's very scary for some people. And I mean, and you hear it every day. There's a lot of guys that hunt every day. I've been hunting for years that are you know, scared of heights to begin with, m Um, yeah, I mean, you know it's the greatest fear. You know, essentially, heights is you know one of the number one things that people are afraid of. And um, you know, vertigo happens to people. You know, you start getting dizzy, you feel like you're about to fall even though you're completely safe. It's like if you've ever sat on the side of a cliff and just kind of you know, or even looked out of the window of a building. But uh, but yeah, I mean, so there's there's lots of ways to get up the tree, you know, the sticks. Uh. You know we were talking about uh, you know, not using alignment's belt, which you really shouldn't use alignment's belt. But people have to understand too, like alignment's belts not going to completely protect you from falling, Like you're still gonna it's not gonna catch you keep you from falling back. You know, like one of the major um you know, injuries from falling is people that don't use something like that or don't use a safety artists and they fall they fought back first, uh and land on their back around their head and you know that's some of the most major that's where fatalities are. People that get paralyzed. That's how that happens. You know, that necessarily won't happen with the lineman's belt unless you have a failure in that system. But it's not just gonna catch you the way like a girth hitched, you know, like a tether's you know, something's girth hitching that tree. So when you pull tight, it applies pressure and pretty much stops you. Whereas a lineman's belt, you know it, you're gonna more likely take a ride for a little bit and you know, face full of bark or stick. I scratched my my hand up pretty good this year doing that. I had, like what you're saying, I think, uh well, I was using like a uh step ladder type tree step, you know, a single stepper, and that thing flipped out and messed up, and I got lineman's belted up against the tree and my hand was like in between my gut in the tree. You know. Yeah, I know. It was late in December too, you know, so I was that was, you know, pushing on the weight at that point in the season. Yeah, you've got white right. Well, my hand was not appreciative of that for sure, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. That's yeah for sure. To So I mean, you've got you've got all these different climbing methods, and you've got the you've got the you know, you we've talked about how I can obviously preference what you're comfortable with, you know, um your height UM is something that we've kind of mentioned with the climbing stands, but like kind of talk about like what what I guess what you typically see when somebody using like a two step stick, um hight wise, like what they're getting to and what you like to get to. I guess yeah, I mean that's one of our That is one of the most common questions we get when people, you know, because most of the sticks, you know, like your lone wolves and you know, your hawks and things like that, they were traditionally you know, thirty plus inch three steps, right, and then to get more compact and more light weight, people started modifying or making sticks shorter. Uh, so you know, you see most people landing I would say, on average in that seventeen stick. If there want to be a if there want to be a compact mobile hunter, which you know we offer two and um. But it's so hard to tell somebody how high you can get with with a stick because it all has to do with how tall you are and what you're willing to do, and you know, athletic ability and you know, in my opinion. I think people put too much emphasis on height rather than thinking about how they're setting up. I mean, like I carry three to four sticks with me, but to be honest with you, I hardly use over. I never rarely used over three. And a lot of times I'm like, sometimes it's too high. Yeah, you know, two sticks high because I like to hunt in that ten to fifteen foot range because I shoot a shoot a stick bow when I bow hunt, and I don't I don't like really steep angles with it. You know. I like to be a little bit lower, but I put more emphasis on what my cover is, and um, not always getting higher is gonna give you better cover? Uh. You know, I like to play in the shadows, like keep myself in the shadows, and I like to make sure I have to get background cover and and I like to find if I can find trees that offer good cover themselves. Personal I like to find. I love find like split maple or something like that. Uh, those are like some of my favorite trees. But like sitting up like in the crotch of that tree. Is that kind of what you said? Yeah that I love that set up? Yeah? Yeah, well, and you know, and like as your foliage comes off the tree. Like some people think you have to go higher, but sometimes lower. You need to go lower because it's less it's less common for you to be skyline exactly. Um yeah, so but you know, like I said, that's the most common question I would say, we get It's like how high can I get? I mean, I know guys that are five ft eight and can get twenty ft with three sticks, you know, but they're they're pretty monkey. It should probably done something we shouldn't do. But I'm not gonna tell a guy that's not very you know. Here's another thing. Going up is a lot easier than coming down some you know, most of the time because you know where you're going going up, but when you're going down, trying to find that step in the dark, it's a challenge. And not to deal with us too far. But the first time my wife ever went tree stand hunting with me, you know, I it was with climate sticks and stuff, and she did, Okay, we only got up about ten foot up in the tree. You know. That was kind of like one of those deals, was like, well, we probably won't see much, but whatever, you know, get her out there. Well, the same exact thing you're talking about it got dark and she didn't grow up doing that, and she's, um, well it's a lot of things. Uh bold and a probably aren't one of those, and that's okay, you know, but like dude, it took like a good you know, ten minutes of hope talk to get her to take that first step down, you know, and you can imagine that, you know, most people are somewhere in between that you know guy who will just slide down, you know, like a cat squirrel, and then you know somebody like my wife, like it's that's a pretty tough thing to do if if you're not that experienced. The first step down out of the out of the standard saddle, oh yeah, And I mean to be quite honest about that, that's where most your accidents happen. It's either that first step out or the first step into a stand. You know, was you know, the kick out with stand, especially when they didn't have double can buckle type of attachments on lock on stands. But you're correct, and people dinner getting wigged out, like you know, in rock climbing, when people get scared, you know, they call it elvis leg your legacy, Like, um, but I want a backup quick? What is a cat squirrel? Oh? Oh, well, I'm so glad you asked. That's a gray squirrel. Do you have gray squirrels where you're at? Yeah, they have great squirrel that must be regional man. Yeah, cat squirrels is a is a great squirrel. So we call them fox squirrels and cat squirrels down here. And you know, I guess I think fox squirrels the common name of a fox squirrel, red squirrel, fox squirrel, same thing. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I figured you'd have known that growing up in Arkansas. But it must be that you know that red River line right there or whatever that kind of I think it is. I was more like in the Delta, and we hadn't only uh, we had to go to the hills and hunt to have gray squirrels. We mainly had red squirrels and black squirrels, which black squirrels a variation of the red squirrel. Yeah, we got a few of those running around over here. We try to up here. We have white squirrels that our variation of a gray squirrel. Really saw one. We don't have a ton of them, and they're not I bino. They're white squirrel. So I one I saw on a day Turkey and actually that's cool. May mount right there? Man? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, a little quick fun facts for people. But but yeah, I mean so like the coming down, it tends to be like kind of the more sketchier part of you know, a lot of these systems and all of you know, while we're talking about height and and and and things like that, you know, well, let's talk about eight ers because that's something that's been you know, is it kind of a newer um addition to the systems of climbing sticks. You know, I would say, you know, let's say probably the last five years, is I would be confident saying that's when you really started seeing people using eight systems that they attached their stick to get more linked out of their stick, which you know, there's different variations of that, like you know, people make them out of the m still like we talked about earlier. Uh, they make them out of webbing, where they make them of a wire cable. Uh, and they attached them at different areas. Like some of them have permanent ones that they had, you know, that stay on your stick all the time. Uh, some have movable ones you know, like some of the first first types of airs people were using. They were using like an eight system that will use in rock climbing, like a three to five step type system and just attachment to their climbing stick. That's a good way to end up with your leg hanging up in a tree in your back on the ground. We used one of those summer I guess we made it modified when out of no urope and some uh what is a water hose? And yeah, yeah, but golly they like that. Just floppy eight is not my favorite. It's not not a good thing. No, And you know, we make a what we call a retractable cable eighter that goes on our stick. And so we get a lot of questions for people talking about eights. And what's interesting is like a lot of people there again like they had to use them, that they've seen a lot of people use them and talk about how good they are online. Well, they do have a lot of pluses, don't get me wrong. Like you can get more linked out of a shorter stick. You can cut your weight down. Uh, they're fairly packable. Uh you know if you're is and like one of the removable ones. But there again, we're talking about the coming down factor. It's a lot easier going up with those things than it is coming down. And depending on how they attached your stick, like if you have two points of contact of an ader where it attaches, you don't get as much swing if you're using just like let's say on one step or maybe even two steps. But when you start adding steps and then like you only have one attachment of the eight or to the tree, you get a pendulum effect. So you really have to pay attention to how you put your foot in there. And you know, the best way is like you put it on the upside of the swing of a tree. Like if you have an angle tree that's ailing to your right, you want to put your foot in a if you're in one of those eighters, you want to put it to the left side of the tree, you know, because if not, it's gonna swing down. And and that's a common issue with one of the ones that attached to the first of button is they just swing like a you know, like a pendulum and uh. And you know, and also like if your sticks are tim a tested tim uh, they don't test the versa button for a downward pool, So you know, and do I think our product would would pass that test? Yeah? Absolutely, But I'm not going to tell somebody use that on our product because we haven't, you know, certified that. The third party testing labs is Tree stand Manufacturers Association. Is that right? Yes? Yes, And they have this They're the only people that have a set level of standards for how hunting climbing products, you know, tree stands are supposed to be tested, you know, Like we sent that nylon water hose thing off to him. We hadn't heard back yet, so I don't know. Yeah, I live close enough to the one of the labs that they use, uh that it's like three hours I drive my stuff there and get to go watch it be tested. So cool. Yeah, and get to watch it be destroyed. Did they ever do they go? They stressed us it to the max? Oh yeah, yeah, you can have him destroyed for sure. Yeah. Yeah, which is it's awesome to see. I mean, well, it's kind of sad, like, you know, like I put so much money. Like when I first took my stuff up there, it was like my prototypes so that I made, and I had like you know, thousand dollars over a thousand dollars in them, so I'm gonna started crying when actually uh you know. So it's like but you get to see like how these things are tested there, and it's just not the Bubba method of like, hey, you know it's three h pounds weight riting. Well, let's you know, me, Casey get up on there with a twelve pack of bud lights and like actually about three fifties so we're good at three. Yeah. Yeah, So you know that's and there's a you know, I wonder how many people testing this stuff, you know, like from eight years and stuff to make sure it works because you know it's getting sold, so you've gotta make sure it's gonna hold your weight. But you know, so the problem you know with the eights that I've ranto if you have a tree that starts to angle kick back or or angle forward, well that eight or if it kicks back, that's a better scenario because the ad is gonna swing away from the tree. Well, if it kicks forward, the eight or will go against the tree when your foot's night in it. So when you're coming down the tree at night, like you're gonna be fishing your foot there to find that damn thing, you know, and and that's dangerous. Um, so that's a negative to that. But if you're super you know, comfortable at heights and you know, athletic and you can sit there and like play and find that like it could be all right. But we all know, like if you've been hunting and it's cold, like your feet don't function probably yeah, not to mention you've got a snowsuit on, it's like you can't even pull your knee upots yeah, muddy boots or icy boots and uh, you know. So that's why I like, you know, somebody calls me and they asked me what I use. I never have more than two eights in my system because I only use them on the bottom two steps. That's what we did. I was like, if I don't trust what I've got engineered here with this rope, so I put it on the bottom step and I never it basically gave me like maybe a foot and a half or so of advantage, you know, so like it was, it was, I never put it to where it like maxed me out, so that if I did get my foot caught and fell out of it like that, I wouldn't be able. I would just be hanging there until I could get Casey to you know, come get me or whatever, like I always wanted it just to be. I was just like, I'm just gonna get another foot and a half out of it, and I'm gonna be too greedy here because you know, this is something that I have. I'm not an engineer by any means, you know what I mean. So that's uh, that's how I ran mine as well, for sure. You know Jason was talking about how you know what it's like to be in an all day sit and we laughed, uh quietly between you and I because you're not the biggest fan of the all days sits and I don't do them a ton either, But there are sometimes. But I can tell you this. We've been testing out some saddles of spring and U that cruiser saddle that they sent us to try out. Man Like I can see myself do it. It's a little bit more in that thing. It's just roomy, like putting the beauty up in a tree and that's it. They staying there all that. I love that analogy. I sold some beauty risk, man. I can sell them to you know, anybody, And uh, I don't know if you should really be doing some beauty risk up in a cruiser saddle, but you know you might can do like a little bit of like a relaxation at least, you know what I mean. So if guys, if you haven't, go check out cruiser Uh what's it Cruiser saddles dot com or cruiser It's not shop or something like that, right, anyways, google Cruiser c R U z R and check out everything they have to offer. Cruiser saddles dot com, Cruiser saddles dot com. Check out everything they have to offer for saddle hunting and the light Yeah, I mean it's you know, you have if you do have to take a fall, you have you know, less you're hight so you know, like uh, you know, possibly less injury. But I don't know. I do try to persuade people to not do four. But I would say eight percent of our sticks about the door four aters, Yeah, I think, I mean, it's it's fine, you know, but you know, for them if they're comfortable with it. But I don't know, that's that's probably you know, getting to the point where you're trying to not monkey too much. But I'm a monkey guy, and if I had you know, the twenty two steppers all four theaters. I feel like I could get thirty ft up in a pretty no problem, you know what I mean. I need that for I'm not a monkey guy. And like I used three and four steps all year. Last year hunted you know, around fourteen or fifteen foot most of the time and killed deer, you know what I mean. It's like I killed plenty of deer. I don't I can't recall actually being seen by target deer that you know, I didn't get a shot at or whatever. So I think if a person spends more time perfecting how they set up rather than how high they set up, I think they'll be more effective because like you know, there's there's a lot of learning curve there. But you know, like we've always heard traditionally that is like the optimal height to get out of there. You know, deer, don't look up. That's bull crowd. You know, if you're in a pressured area, hear look up wind and thermals. You know, like, yeah, maybe there's a chance you can skate it over their head or something if you're five more feet. But you know, like really, if you want to perfect your thermals as you go up the tree, you need to be like dropping the milkweed, like every time you go up. You know, like if they're going directly to that deer, you're gonna get busted. So you know I do I do hunt off hunt slightly off wind because I find that's the most productive for me to get an opportunity. But you know another thing, you know, I think we talked about the other day when you're texting me, because people were talking about painting their sticks and versus black or whatever. I mean personally, like I mean I wear black down pants in a tree like color. You know, Camouflage is a thing, you know, like for white tail, I don't fund it to be that effective. I maybe wear a camo top or a cameo bottom with a solid and with sticks, like if you put your sticks facing the way the deer is coming in front on a trail, like an old dough I'm mature bucket comes up that trail. They're they're not necessarily don't They're gonna see something differently on that tree. Regardless, it doesn't matter what color it was. They're gonna see something. They walked by that trail. You know, they've been walking by it for five or six years, they're gonna see something that's um out of the ordinary. More so, Camo is not gonna hide that. Camra is not gonna hide your double steps steps you know, off the side of a you know, bigger than a six inch diammea tree, eight inch diamond tree whatever. Uh, you know, you're not gonna be able to hide that. Like technically you should always place my sticks on the shadow side of the tree so they don't get any glare or anything. So like color doesn't bother bother me. I'm like, honestly, I don't have time to be painting my stuff. Yeah, that's kind of how I mean. It's like time thing as much as anything, you know. But um, I'm the same way. But like there is there is there's some trees. Man, when you're like, this is the tree I got to get in because it's the shot that you know, the place it gives me shots. Sometimes I'm like, man, um, they like, for instance, like you're talking about some trees lean right, and like going setting sticks on the side that's leaning towards is almost impossible for me to get up. So like I always try to go up, you know, the opposite side to where I'm It's almost like a cat's squirrel climbing up a tree. You know, he's gonna climb on that side of the tree most of the time, right when he's just going, he's not scared or whatever. So like, you know, I don't know, I U I feel like that that could put you in a precarious position. But like the I did have a bucking eyewall last year spotted my my black sticks. Um, I was using some muddy you know, pro sticks or whatever, and uh, but but I mean he was literally um coming towards my tree from twenty yards and didn't see the sticks until he was like five or six seven yards from me, you know what I mean. It was a situation where, like you wish you would have already shot him at that point. I had to readjust my camera, you know, so like I would have killed him. You know, we had a dope like almost lick the bottom black stick, you know, and that one cotton wood tree and text. It's so weird, man, Like that's the thing. That's the thing that throws me off about some of these guys that that talking absolutes about deer man, because it's like, you know, you hear these guys that say, like this is you know, I knew this deer was here, and I set up on his bed and this and that, and like, I'm sure there's a little bit of truth to that every once in a while, but man like, it's just like if a deer was so predictable, or if deer in general were so predictable, they wouldn't really be that fun in the hunt once you get to a certain level of understanding, you know what I mean, And and just that unpredictability is what makes them fun. Man Like. Just you know, going in and feeling good about a spot is different than than uh, knowing that you're gonna kill you know, different. But yeah, that's like that's one of those things like what we were just talking about the examples. It's like, man, you know, you always want to try to like pull everything into your advantage as much as possible. But I mean, I literally I'm looking at a spot where last year I pull my truck up in a giant deer ran to ninety yards while I was sitting in my truck and just looked at me because there was a dog right next to him. Like they just do things that are just unpredictable sometimes you know, and it's it's cool, man, So I'll tell you what you know, back to the camera thing like you were talking about, Uh, I understand camo and a lot of senses, but man, like camo on a stick is going to disappear at fifteen yards anyways, It's going to be a solid color at that since you know what I mean, Like camo has made really more for like you know, being seen from two hundred yards away or like with turkeys. It's a little bit different, right, but like, um, there's a reason you know what a set camo is probably right like those uh you know, flame looking things on a set, those are wider than a stick is anyways, you know what I mean. So like what good is it gonna do to camouflage a tree step or you know people who have camo bows, which I'm not a like gonna go over the woods with a you know or anything, But you get what I'm saying, right, Like, once once they start looking up, most of it kind of goes gray anyways, because you're kind of you know, backle it to an extent into like your stick profile is just exactly and I get like having it not having it earth tone or like something kind of flat or whatever. But like as far as like making sure you get you know, moss yoak bottom lands on there because that's what's gonna match the tree asking me come on you know, yeah, yeah, I mean that's the thing. I mean. There's a lot of people in no offense to him, you know, like they want all their gear to match, Like they spend hours trying to match up, like opt to fate on you know, with sponge painting on the platform. Yeah, it's cool to see some of the stuff they come up with. You. There's some artists out there, you know, and there's something to it. You know, there's a reason to Danny Thompson wore Advisor because he looks cool, dude, you know what I mean, Like it looked cool, play cool, kiel cool. You know, it's like the the the part of the hunting thing for some people. You know, yeah, what about what about what about? Like uh, because part of being a ninja is being able to sneak up on something? What about the the the you know, quietness in a in a setup. Have you seen any mods that you think are worth somebody doing or what like what do you do and with your sticks and stuff that and you're a gear that keeps them quieter and other you know, other I guess brands or other different pieces that you've used in the past. Well, I mean, like I said, I don't spend a lot of time, like you know, there's a lot of guys that you know, pair cord wrap paara cord all over the platforms and steps and all that to quieting them down, like I don't. I've never really done that because pair coorter gets wet and freeze as you're clicking. It's gonna be a little bit of a rodeo, I guess in my opinion. Also, I'm not gonna spend like my Saturday night wrapping pair cord and stuff. So when we came out with arstick, like I wanted to keep things quiet. So that's the reason we used a polymer for the step, you know, instead of metal. And that's you know, one of the main reasons, you know, besides weight. We used to carbon fibers because you know, it's it doesn't make a metallic noise when you hit it with like a carabe or something metal. And I haven't posted the video yet, but actually used a dosom or the other day, you know, which is how you you know, it's a text and noise ratings and DV levels. That's a two ometer in English, right, yeah, um, and I probably pronounced that wrong, but I'm from Arkansas, I've excuse. But there was a twenty dB difference between metallic and carbon. Yeah, I was taking a carabaner and I wasn't you know, we make aluminium sticks. I was using our aluminium stick in our carbon stick, and there was a twenty dB difference between the metallic um carabaner swinging from the same distance into the carbon versus the aluminium. And so that was another reason that you know, So that's why we used a polymer in our step, was to reduce that noise because when you're stacking sticks, the most common cause of noise setting up or taking down at night is the standoff coming in contact with the tube or the step. So we try to reduce two pieces of that, you know, like we couldn't you know. I still don't feel confident in anything but metal biting into a tree as far as longevity goes. Uh, So we use that. But you know, I have I have wrapped you know, camo tape around metal pieces in the past, they reduce noise and it does help U. You know, they make what they call it stealth strip tape, which you know helps with that as well. So you know, you can wrap most of your metallic parts on, you know, either your bow or care meaners. Since now people are settle hunting a lot, you know a lot of people using care beaners or other types of devices. Um and uh, you know, people spray foam into their metal sticks to kind of you know, because most people are using some type of hollow tube for their um mass section of their climbing sticks. So you know, if you have open ends or if you drill holes and stuff to reduce weight, it turns into an echo chamber, you know, So try to reduce that type of noise by those types of things. Yeah, and you know that's mainly what we did. Uh. What's the reason we use the carbon fibers. Just overall it's quieter, um, you know, hands down, and also you know, like carbon fiber is doesn't get as cold as metal does. So that's another benefit of these day It's some cold days last year in Kansas saying, I was like I'm just sitting there in my truck, like getting ready to get out and walk in, you know, and I'm like dreading setting my my sticks. You know, it's like GOLLI, dude, this is gonna hurt my hands so bad, you know, and just it it does. And once you get into stand, you gotta just keep your hands in your pockets for as long as you can because you just you know, they were freezing cold going up setting up and some of these I mean that's things that like a person trying new gear out for the first time in the spring or summer, you have to think about when it comes time to hunt in the winter, is like how are you going to operate some of these things, like I mean even time or not, Like you know, like if you if your hands are really cold numb, you can't feel them, Like are you gonna be as efficient you know with tying and unpuying things or were using things like Ropeman's and uh screwing unscrewing carabineers and like all this stuff, like it works very well under perfect conditions, but when you know it gets to be ProMED time and you know it's you know, negative negative temperatures out there and you're just frozen is ice cube and you can't feel your hands, like some of these things aren't aren't sufficient then, you know, Um, I mean, especially when we start talking about but we we cover everything on the climbate sticks. That's hard to say, but it sounds pretty good, I think, I mean, it feels comprehensive. But I like the Casey said, I'm not the I mean, if we didn't, dude, we can do this again sometimes because this has been fun. Man. Yeah, well, um, I mean I feel like we we kind of hit the gist of it, and like if anybody has some questions, they can hit it either of us up and we'll answer it. But um, but there's also other methods that people are using these days to get up a tree. Um. One is called you know, they call it thinks. People call it d R T s RT you know, climb and Buddy and I started doing this about seven seven years ago. UM, we call it the RAD system. RAD was an acronym for rapid ascent and descent. So essentially we were we were throwing um, you know, like a bean bag over a tree with a small tag a line, uh, and then the bean back would over We throw it over a limb and then the beanback would come down and we would tell that tagline onto like a static or we were using old climbing road which is dynamic UH rope, and we had either a care beaner attached to one end, or we had like a overhand on a bike for a loop, and we would pull that loop or cab beaner around and if it was a cab beaner, we took it back into the rope. So you you essentially create a fixed line to go up the tree and you climb that. You climb that using you know, at that time, I was using UM and I primarily you know, until I started hunting out Siddle most of the time in my tree stand, I was using my climbing harness is my my safety device, you know, fall protection and UH. So you essentially can go into that fixed line with a device called a Greek green um which is like a thing we used for climbing for um be laying a person's climbing as a catchment device that essentially you can feed line through, but when it has a load on it, it has a camming braking device to stop the rope from back feeding in. You still should be using the tail in and the rope is the break just as backup. But it's a mechanical device that does catch, and so you attach that to yourself into the rope, and then you put like a hand to center up above you. And then you have a cara meaner that you attach to the hand of center and then it attaches to a like a leg loop air to use your foot, and then you haven't. I use the same carabineer and I run the tail end and my my rope through that comes from my grieger device that's on my brake hand through that. So essentially it's you know, you have to google this, but you move the hand of center up the rope and you stand up in your your leg loop or a or whatever you wanna call it. And if you're doing that, you pull the slack out of the rope that's attached to your grig your device, because that gregers what's holding um. And then it's so it's really cumbersome if you have done it enough, and fortunately I've done enough climbing that I was fairly good at it. Inefficient, but you just work this system back and forth until you get to the you know, where you want to place your stand or your tree settle platform and the beauty of that type of method is you're always protected, like there's no you can you know, you can essentially let go of the brake arm and that device has you held right and uh so you're always safe. And then you get you're all hands free. You can get your you know, lock on stand up attached or your siddle platform and then you you know transition and that and then that wrote and that device is your fall protection as well, so you never have to come out of the system. And then at the end of the night when you're ready to um, when you're ready to come out, you just swing off onto that rope and that that device also has a little break on it and you can start release in it a little bit, you know, and you repel down on that fixed line. So very safe if you if you know how to use those types of things. It's a little cumbersome. It's a little cumbersome getting started, right. I saw a guy on YouTube explaining that before and then he he looked like he was gaining about four inches every time he did the you know, the motion, and I was like, no, that ain't for me, you know, just hey, looks pretty combored like it might not be something he was really experienced with either how do you get that rope down? So what I always did, what I found to be that there's two ways you can do it. You can attach like if you're let's say you're using a cab being or too as you're um on the end of your rope and you're biting that caur but you're clipping that curb your back into the main line and create a girth hitch on that limb. Uh. You can you can tie in a that feeder line again and drop it to the ground so when you get down, when if you repel down, you can pull that tagline to pull that that section of the rope back down to you and you pull up pad the care beaner or the eye of the rope. That's really tough. Sometimes I sucker bites and you're up there jerking, and that was that was that's the hardest way to do it, in my opinion. What what I always did was I carried double length of what I expected to climb. So if I was climbing twenty, I would carry rope and uh and when I got up there, I would um essentially dropped both tails. I would take the care beaner off or the unthreaded from the eye of the rope, if I used it in that method and would drop both tails down, and I would use a device that you repel I called an a t C or you can use a figure eight device, and I would repel that way. That way I'll have to do is pull the rope over the tree and would't have to worry about trying to jerk the eye down from the bottom. Um. A lot of you know, a lot of moving parts with that system, and you have to be very comfortable that system to be safe. And you've gotta make sure that you're using the right speck of rope and for the devices you're using and all this stuff. So there's there's a learning curve or it could be very dangerous. It sounds like the ladder to me, but because I'm not a rock climbly guy, it also sounds like it's gonna be real hard to sell sticks if you're teaching people how to do that, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's definitely a well in another it's kind of like what we're talking about with the climber. You're having to hunt trees that have a lumb yeah, to be able to throw that over um, you know, and also like you know, there could be in a situation where that that lamb is dead or you thought it was like everything not exactly, And like I used that a lot. I used to and I still do some im I'll set fixed lines in places that way I come like, especially like for funnels and stuff. Yeah, I do that. I thought about that from my own personal property because last year, uh, Tyler and I both have some like twenty plus acres places that that we uh have out on loan from the bank of course, but they then let us on it, you know, so uh we uh we go out and you know when we end up doing hanging hunts on our own property because they don't have a ton of those old metal stands laying around. And it's like, man, this is kind of a lot of work for something that's supposed to be a little bit easier. And I've just been wondering, could I, you know, put a big old eyebolt or a pully up in a tree and just have a line that I leave there and you know, walk up with my saddle and just kind of do the treehouse singing. You got a bucket and you just pull yourself up. So I'm talking about you know exactly. I guess you're talking about a more scientific version up there. Yeah, that's uh, I mean I do I do that a lot still. I mean, um, I have spots. I still use that on um it's cool if I have places. I know, I'm going back to you, uh the but you know, and if you're using it the traditional way, like I was talking about before, people talk about the least bulk and what have you. But technically, when you start putting forty ft of rope in your backpack, it gets pretty balky and and and then at the end of the night, you know, you gotta you have to coil that rope and do all these things and like there again, like you know, there's some pluses and minuses to it, um. But you know, ultimately, if you know what you're doing and you're using the proper equipment, your training that equipment, it is very safe. But you know, and then now recently people have gotten into this method uh called one stick and the one sticking method, which on paper it seems really cool. I mean, you know there's people who are jumping on the bandwagon and you know, getting products to market, to accommodate that these one steps are one sticking sticks that operate as a a platform and a in a climbing stick, you know. So but the problem with that is, like, in my opinion for us, if you've watched any videos of this, is like the whole working up in doubt so that they're essentially getting their stick as high as they can on the first go um using multiple you know, like a multi step eight or and then they have a fixed line that they work up the tree um and attach themselves into that and they kind of essentially do that same method we talked about earlier, but they're not really having to what we call jug the rope um using the hand to cender, that is, using the cinder. The step is kind of doing the climbing for you. And you just take the slack out of the rope as you go up and then you you move your girth hitched rope up the tree higher, but then you've got to kind of repel down a little bit to get your stick below your feet, you know. And if you ever watch these videos, it's it's there lot of movement going on in that system. But you know, and people say it's lightweight um and technically just some things it is. But you know a lot of these these single sticks that people are using, uh you know, they're like four four and a half pounds by themselves, so like and and they're none of them are built very compact. They're all bulky looking at me. And I'm not hating on it, but like, what I want in my system is stuff to be fairly compact when it's attached to my pack, so it's not like dangling around or you know, getting caught and brush and stuff. And I hadn't seen a very compact one stick step set up yet. But you know, one of our other dudes, Hunter has four and a half pound sticks that he carries for of how they the old iron things that aren't even made to be mobile. Yeah, they're you know, they're built for for the guy who has a tree dearly. You know, it's all relative, man. You know, if you're used to that, you're gonna pick up some of the uh you know, timber Ninja aluminium sticks you're like, oh my gosh, this is a game changer, you know, and which they're not, you know, but it's like you're what, I mean, what's the difference in the white from the carbon to the aluminium, you know, off top of your head. Uh so there is one point two pounds on carbon, it's one point six on aluminium, which and most people that are making aluminium sticks in that size ranger you know, around that to two pounds. It's like you know what they call the ultra light or not ultra light, but lightweight climbing sticks. But then you know you get up into like some other stuff in your two and a half pounds you know, are more. Um. But you know, I mean, I think some people like have gotten into these days and they like exploring the methods of the stuff and it's fun to them. And you know, if that's if that what brings you, brings people joy, um, you know that that's that's awesome. You know that that's what gets your rocks off to have a good time in the woods. Uh. I tend to spend more time like learning how to be effective killing more learning the animal, learning the animal, and you know, like I still use and and you know, like the saddle hunting. Like you know, people talk about walk ons vers saddles. You know, lock ons are still predominantly you know, the most used product, but the saddles and saddle platforms have some advantages, but they also have disadvantages to you know, I do feel like, you know, if you're using the proper gear, a saddle is very safe because you don't have a lot of rope in the system to take a fall. You know. Um, you know, you just got to make sure that you're using a saddle that's been tested for a fall. You know, if you're going to have that, you know, and make sure you're using the right equipment. I mean you have in this area. If people want to get light weight, they're starting to use ropes for in and mechanical devices that a mechanical devices not raided for the rope size they want to use because they want a more passable rope. I mean, there's and you know, there's a lot of stuff going on there that I think shouldn't be messed with. You know, you should stay inspec on your stuff. And you know, these companies that make most of these types of mechanical devices are climbing type companies, and you know they're not. There's you really don't want to fudge factor there. It's like, well yet different a little different there, you know. But he's like he says, eight, But I think the seven works good for me today. Yeah. I mean it's just a millimater. What's the different that's anyway, It's just just just just trying to sell me a bigger rope. But you know what I mean, it's uh, there's there's a lot more people experiment in these days, and I think there's definitely something you may see more accidents in the future. Ement it's a good point, man. So you know, there's guys experimenting on the b MX courses and there's all kinds of stuff, smoking it and all kinds of stuff too, So you know, people are just people are prone to do that kind of thing. But I think, uh, but you know what works for a lot of guys is you find your system and you learn it well and you do it and once you learn how to kill animals doing that. Not that you shouldn't experiment and try to you know, it's always good to have open mind, but at the same time, sometimes it's good to just find what works and stick with it, you know. So uh, for me, I think I'm always probably gonna be the guy who carries a couple of sticks two or three in the woods. And I did you know, swap over to saddlehunting this past year. But I mean, but as you hunt, you realize, you realize the things that could help you, you know what I mean, without even having to experience that product, you can know that that thing is Like what can we talk about this a lot too? It's like there's some guys who have have really good jobs that pay good money, and what they can do is try to fiddle with gear, you know, fiddle factor for you know, uh, eleven months and two weeks of the year, and they have the two weeks vacation that they can take and go hunt. And there's other guys here are bombs like um, maybe uh two people in this truck right now that uh, you know, we don't have as much fiddle factor about us because we're gonna go hunt quite a bit and we just need to find something that works and go do it, you know. And it's kind of like what what you're saying, Jason, Like, you know, whatever brings you joy and whatever you you feel like it works for you, it's just what you what you need to do, you know. It's it's not that there's any one right or wrong way or what's right for you might be wrong for me. Oh yeah, I mean, you know, I can't guarantee you know what you hit the nail on the head, like going to work for you exactly I'm talking about. Uh, you know that that's the thing. Like, and there's so many people that they think that they asked these opinions, and so many people harp in and a lot of people harpen in. Sometimes I don't even have experience with what they're doing. They are able to been doing it for last week or two and it's the best thing since sliced bread. But you know, like I'm more about going out and hunting. Like for me, like I'm trying to improve my craft where I can start killing big deer off the ground. Like to me, that's you know, the most fair chased and getting personal and like you know, let's call it makes you the ninja. Yeah, if you're if you're sticking you know, big bucks off the ground, like you've really honed your craft. But I'm not there yet. Um haven't made that happen, So I'm still Like for me, it's like using climbing sticks, uh, and not because I sell them, it's just that's what I found to be the most efficient and less cumbersome and uh for for like going in blind in the area, because I like you guys, I do my what I love doing is I love traveling to new places sight unseen and going in and try to track down mature deer. That's my thing. And we don't know what we're gonna get into in that area. So I want something that I know can get me up any tree. And there's not a tree in the woods I can't get up in with, you know, with a set of climbing sticks unless it's just way too big and then I'm just gonna get behind it on the ground, um so um. And then you know it's like the saddle versus tree tree stands Like I love hunting out his saddle. Um, you know for how I do it? You know what's shooting a stick bow like I have felt compromise sometimes being that close to the tree and having to face the tree most of the time because there's not a lot of saddle platforms out at the moment that you can really turn around in very well and stand on like you wouldn't pay a lock on stand. You know, there's just a difference than um, you know length there but uh, but there's a lot of vantages to all this stuff, and it's all getting pretty close on weight, you know what I'm and to be honest with you, like my kid, you know, like right now and I go into the woods, you know, just my climbing system is you know, ten pounds or you know, slightly under and certain you know situations depending on what I'm carrying with me. But I'm not going any further than I did when I was carrying forty pounds of client, you know, a climbing stand like, because the point was I wanted to get to where I wanted to get regardless of what I had on my back, you know. I mean, like the grit and putting your feet to the ground and burning boot rubber is what's going to kill you more deer. Anyway, it's time in the woods unless you just get lucky and get something on the first day, which never happens to me. Like I killed last year. I killed. Like I sat in a tree for two hours in Illinois and killed this big old eight point and like I was like, this is the best thing that I've ever done. I sat and I stayed up to like one am in the hotel room, eating cookies and like surfing Instagram. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. This is It's always like day five or seven or whatever. You know, it was awesome. Yeah, that's just but most of the time, it takes the time. You know. That's that's the key to being successful in my opinion, no matter the species, is the guy that has the most time is normally gonna be the most productive. You're in here out dude. We tell we tell our listeners. We try to tell them all time, you know, I mean even for us, like we had to spend a lot more time than most people do in the woods, you know, and so um, but you're like, you you've watched this, you watch TV, you watch YouTube whatever it is, and you see these guys killing deer um that are hunting public land or whatever, and it's like, you know, it's just don't get down on yourself because you're not doing that, because I can promise you most of these guys doing it out there are spending more time than you are on the land, in a ton more man hours too. You know, you've got six guys scouting, four you or whatever, and you know that's kudos to that. And if you can find a good hunting body to share information with. It's definitely worth it, you know. But that's exponential, and you're talking about how time, you know, equal success and that, and that's like such a great testament and maybe a good way to kind of wrap it up with the idea that, um, you know, the fanciest sticks in the world or the coolest, newest saddle of the best bowl isn't gonna kill you stuff. But if you can afford stuff like that and you can get to know it really well, then when you can do that second nature or not have to like get to the tree standing like well, I don't know if my sticks can do this or whatever, you know, and you just get a system that works for you. And it's kind of, um, I don't mean to use this in a negative term, but like it's mindless, you know, where it's just it's just inert and what you do. Yeah, then the whole time you can worry about killing deer and you just know that your gear works for you, you know, And I think that that's what's real cool about, you know, like your sticks being lightweight and having versa button. It's just like, man, it's simple and it works and it goes up a tree and you know, let's kill it. Casey's favorite thing about your sticks is there are no exposed nuts. Yeah. I've been walking around showing my nuts my whole lot. Your sticks are so modest, was very modest, very pg. Yeah. I mean, you know, like people make all these advancements and broadheads and arrows and photos and blah blah blah, but there's still so many animals that have that have hit the dirt with stone points and guys you know, running around loincloths, you know, way more than we'll ever catch up with, you know what I mean, So like, it can be done, and really what it comes down to is spending more time what's between your ears in perfecting that system more than you know. I'm not trying to cut myself short on selling stuff like I have to run a business and keep some you know, employees paid things like that, but uh, you know you'll be a lot more successful if you could save money and spend more time in the woods and you know, spend more time scouting blah blah blah. Well and and like and you're not. I've talked to you a few times, man, I know that that's not just something you're saying on a podcast like that's you do have that integrity man, of like you know, you're you're kind of like, man, you know, this is something I want to do to help people. It's not uh, you know, whether I sell the sticks or not. I'm still gonna hunt and I'm still gonna try to hunt with the best gear, can you know. And so I can appreciate that kind of easy going salesmanship I guess you'd say, or whatever it is for lack of a better phrase, but just that integrity and in what you're what you're doing, and what you're saying in in that consistency as well. Man. So um, but man, we appreciate you coming on. It's been awesome. We probably have to do this again sometime if we can think of a few more things. I mean, you you did a pretty I think we got some dear talk to do in the future. I think that's our next thing, you know, I want to hear about that and stuff. But yeah, we'll have to have more space on our SD carbonever we do now, Yeah, we have to do that. But when we talked about trying to link up sometimes maybe in Arkansas or yeah, that would be awesome. We should we should do it at camp. That'd be fun. That does sound cool. Hey, if somebody wants to check out the stuff that you'll have at timber Ninja, where should we send them Our websites wwws timber Ninja outdoors dot com and same thing on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook. And think about has any questions about any of this stuff, like even it's something that we currently don't sell or have on the market. Like, I do have a fairly good background and you know a lot of these things, so I'm happy to help anybody. So I saw there was a tree stand kind of floating around out there a little bit. I'll be interested to see that. Yeah, we have a we have a carbon fiber tree stand coming out relatively soon. Sweet mixtile platform Saddle. I mean, we're a mobile hunting coducs company. Were on everything in that market space and and like and you know, we do give back a portion of our proceeds back to conservation because we want to keep it, keep this thing that we love. Um, you know, we want for our kids too. And you know it's a passion business for us. Man. Yeah, it's not really profit thing. There's a profit thing I would. I wouldn't have started if I was. If I was all about profits, I'd be working in Dallas right now, I guarantee you exactly. But i'd be miserable probably too. So I was what's that I started only fans accounting? Yeah, we got a buddy, he has a Patreon. We'd picking him better all the time. It's like, yeah, I find you were modest with you know, exposed bolts and stuff. Come to money. Yeah, well cool man. Well thanks for coming on dude, and uh well we'll have to do this again, but talk talk to deer stuff a little more. That'd be awesome, man, have a lot of fun doing that. Go man, well you and making a joke earlier when he started talking about the rock climbing stuff. Um, I have talked to you about this. I don't know if I've mentioned this. Um, but like a lot of times when we're getting like the tactic on, like where some guy one of our friends is setting up or something, you know, like where he's gonna be, it's like he's like, man, you know what it does is it's got three ridge fingers that come down. You know, when comes from the north northwest, when comes from southeast and the last one comes from like kind of east west east south, you know, and I'm like, by that point, I am like lazed over. I have no clue what's going on, and I can't do it. Dude, I don't understand like I used to, like when you know, when I listen to other podcasts, or I used to, I don't really do anymore when I listen another podcast and guys will get on there and be like, now just picture this. You got a north bend and this thing. I'm like, dude, I can't follow. I cannot and so like I kind of had that trouble with the rock climbing tree climbing, and now Jason did say you can also watched this on YouTube. Yes, I appreciate you should do that, and that's what I would That's the way I would learn that for sure. So I guess my point here is if you struggled to visualize some of the things that we were talking about today, uh, definitely, you know, go back listen if you need to make a list of the things that you want to look up if you haven't already done that, and then go check them out on YouTube or Google or whatever. You can figure out pretty quick what these things are. Um. Uh, the forums are a good place to get some even more if you get your race. I wouldn't go asking too many questions on a forum or on a Facebook group page necessarily. But there is a Facebook group page that we created. It's the Element d I Y Hunting Group. Uh. You can go check that out, search it out, and uh ask permission to join that group casey and I will or I will grant you permission if you don't look like a creep in your profile picture, and then you can get in there and ask questions. And there's no rangers in that group yet, so UM let us know if there are. I can't, but yeah, we'll kick him out. We love to hit the red button. I can't prom that there won't be in the future, but as of right now, you can ask questions and be an idiot and nobody will call you that, so it's all good. Um yeah, so go join that group. Um what else we got? I gotta um out of State Hunting group as well, So if you're like in the hunting out of state or you want to you know, get some information on out of state stuff. That's a new group that's got a lot less members in it, but it's growing. Um. So yeah, there's a couple of groups that you can join it along with Secret Airloom Tomatoes if you're into that, which I am. For a friend Dan, he's the moderator over there, I think, yeah, he is. He there's a lot of moderating. I've got about seventy one plants growing right now. I probably more than that actually, and I am pretty excited. It's addicting you. You like, stop at this other nurse. You're like, oh, I don't have that there. It's only two dollars, like this one's called Sunrise Bumblebe and this one's called Orange Honeybee. I'm about if they're different, but I'm gonna get Yeah. Anyway, looking forward to Tomata season, and you know what comes after Tomata season is hunting season. It's gonna be a good time. And we're so far from it right now. I had a gall on the phone tell me. He's like, man, it ain't far away. And that's when you know the one day he's an optimist because it's kind of far away. Right now. It's as far as you can get. But I still at far because you know, six months ain't really long, but whatever. That's pretty good man. Well I'll take it. I'll take it. Man. We still got a while, I think. You and I got a lot of barbecue to do, a lot of burgers to cook, some pigs spaghettis, and a lot of tomatoes to pick and eat with salt and pepper. So I'm pretty excited about those things. I guess. Live in the season that you're in, you know what I mean. You gotta live in uh when it's fishing season. That's why we're trying not to be to one dimensional, because man, there's some fun things that they're out there you want to mention. Yeah, so, uh, like I said, living the season and remember this is your element. Living in

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