00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Tyler Jones and you're listening to the Element podcast tonight. I mean you by my side. Hold on to me song so loud, so I stay on the right side of what's happening on the Woods People today. Before we get started, Casey and I wanted to just kind of inform you guys about the giveaway that we're doing. Um, we haven't really given a lot of details on this because we've been kind of unsure what what all of this is going to entail. But we're a little more solidified with what we are going to give away, and um, that all comes that all comes to you via Apple podcast reviews, So five star reviews saying whatever, um, you know you want to say about us, that's that's good. You have a chance, whether it was from the beginning of time to today. UM, we're gonna be given away. When choosing one of those or a few of those, I guess reviews, Casey, what's the gear list look like? So the gear list is pretty stellar. It's all stuff that we've used and really enjoy. Um, we're gonna give away some on X premium memberships. We're gonna give away some super awesome apparel and one of the big things is going to be one set of Vortex tim By forty two diamondback binoculars. I've been using these for two seasons and man, I love them. My wife loves him. She's like, man, things are so clear through butnocularly it's like they are when you get good innoculars. So that's a that's a pretty sweet little little prize. It's unused pair, by the ways, when we actually have, but they're gonna be giving away to uh one lucky person who gives us a five star review. And here's the thing. There's one other thing on the gear list, but it actually doesn't make the gear list until we reached three hundred reviews on iTunes. Al Right, guys, so um, you'll need to get on there leave us a bunch of reviews. If we get the three hundred reviews on iTunes, we're giving away a pretty sweet gift. It's gonna be something that is in the realm of trail cameras and it's a good one. So check that check that review thing if you haven't, if you've already done a review. We say this every week that we talk about this, but go, you know, steal your your mom's phone or whatever and give us a review for the via her account. You can give us many reviews you can possibly give that way, you have multiple chances. Just remember your code name that you put in, you know, because we want to make sure that when we give it a he the first person we can try to give it away to gets it. Um, So anything else in regards we probably need to state that that will be announced, uh somewhere near the beginning of deer season, I believe. So you got a little bit of time to that. And remember, guys, if you can do multiple reviews, your percentage of winning goes up pretty high. I mean, I know that, like one in one odds sounds like not great, but it's a whole lot better than playing the lottery. I mean, that's about what you did with the healer, right, and you won. That's right. I want the lottery, but it happens, man, So yeah, get on there and leave a couple of reviews if you can. We really appreciate it. And uh, we don't do these giveaways just so that we can use you. Like, we appreciate the reviews and we feel like, um, you know, that's gonna really help us a ton and bringing you more good content, and uh, we appreciate your supports. Yeah, we appreciate that hundred thousand download mark that we were able to hit. That's all because of you, guys. So thanks guys, and let's go ahead and get into our normal broadcasting recording production thing. E here, what's happening all my woods people? It's a it's a warm one here today. It looks like one tin casey, Is that right? You things kind of weird. Yeah, when I idol it, Uh, it definitely shows a higher temperature. No, it's not one tin here, but it's gonna be in the upper nineties, right, I think, I think so. I mean we've been pushing like the ninety eight the last couple of days, so hundreds probably in there in the future for us, right quick. And that doesn't sound too bad until you add in some golf humidity and you literally can't stop sweating. And one thing that I've kind of you've always said, is like, can we just get this sweat to work for us a little bit? You know, if it's not evaporating, then it's not really doing you any good. If you see a sweat dripping constantly, it's not really helping you a whole lot. So well, so we I haven't really sweat a whole lot yet. This morning you did a little lift among we had some work out in here a little bit, and uh we're working out because it's elk shaped time like crunch time. Dude, I got kind of ad on my vacation. Tell you the truth, dude, I know fat huh, well I feel that way at least. It's like I just I need to get my gut back on track, what I mean, healthy and feeling better, but crunching it out. I know that we Uh So today on the podcast, we've got a previous guests that we have really enjoyed and we still really enjoy his content and even after having some conversations with him over the years, we still enjoy this guy. So that's a good thing. But Bill Winky from Midwest Wide tell he is just like a standard in the deer hunting industry and one that, uh, I'm kind of glad is a standard, you know, as opposed to some people who have been around for a long time won't go away. I like I like the mess out of Bill, and uh, hey, we're gonna talk a lot of things. Um in regards to access um because I've been thinking about it a lot for one um with the map scouting that I've been doing on some new different properties and that kind of thing. So access is super important obviously, because if if you spook the deer right off the bat going into the hunt, then your hunt it's probably gonna be pretty boringna be tough. So it's a very important thing and is a topic that we're gonna be discussing with Bill, and so we'll get to that in a minute. But first, anything new on the HeLa front man, because we were just talking about some milk hunt man the HeLa Front Uh just forgotten about it. No, just hot. I mean at this point, I'm just ready go hunt, you know, like I just try to get in there and chase the milk. I don't know I've said this before on the podcast, maybe multiple times, but like there's just so much I can look at this map without like just getting after it. And so now I'm just I'm just ready to go hunt. Elk get in there. Uh, the three of us just be ready to just put some miles on and just go find a big bull. You know, We're gonna do it, dude, like there's no das stoked in my mind. Like the closer we get, the more I feel like we're gonna have a ridiculous amount of fun. Is the funnest thing. It's the funnest. Like I've talked about this before. The anticipation of a hunt is like maybe better than the hunt. It's oh yeah, like how big of a lip now want it be? To like say like, oh, you're going hunt in the hel Of today and like you didn't know. I mean, yeah, be awesome, but like it's like, man, I would miss out on all these months of just like sitting around thinking about this thing that happened to me one time. You're going to day and only today. So where's my tag? He said, it's in your old backpack and I said, um, okay, well this is uh sixteen in New Mexico. That's a Helo hunt. And he said when is it that? And I said it ends today. So it was kind of like I could have gone to the hel Of that day, but then maybe wouldn't have any time to hunt. So man, that's sad, so sad. But um yeah, I'm I'm like, so I'm getting really amptive about that hunt because I don't know. I just feel like, like at first I was just so like questioning on how like is this gonna be? Man? Are we gonna strike out? You know? They say the density is low in this unit, and are we gonna just you know, go in there and have like a boring hunt for four days maybe here and Elk and then you know, seem but not kill them, And like, is it gonna be like one of those weird things where we don't get it done? But just the more I think about it, dude, I'm like, okseys gonna put us on something. Elk and the three of us, like you said, or I think, are uh but all trying to probably hold ourselves pretty liable to not being the slowest one on the mountain. And so whoever ends up being that, it's not for the lack of work or whatever. You see. I have a trick. I have done some map scouting, and I know that on flat ground through open country, you're much faster than I am. But if I put us through some little hottie holes and go through big stuff, I can get through that better you can. So at any point in time you get faster than me, I'm just gonna take a left and we're gonna go through something, and I got you like tired, So I'm gonna go under some tree limbs around that four and a half foot mark. Uh yeah, you do go like I've noticed that, especially in Texas and we're walking around, you know, like you'll go through something, you'll kind of go under something. I'm like, man, I just feel like it so much harder for me to go under stuff. But then when you use the word hidie hole, it's like that is so nostalgic nineteen like nineties for me, that's just a nineties word. I love it so much. Like I remember growing up at the Lodge Efficient with my dad's fishing lodge, and we watched, um, we watched a show that came on in the evening, so I think it's called honey Hoole Honeyhole TV. Yeah, and uh it was. It was Larry and Barry. Yeah, remember like the the opening credit or whatever. It ended with like honey Hole and it was like a sunset with their boat going through the camber and it was like Lake four. It used to fish Fork a lot, so like it was such a cool thing. We'd go watch Larry and Barry, you know from honey Hoole TV like all the time, you know, and just it just reminds me we were literally watching it in the kitchen of the lodge on this like seven inch screen you don't having tiny you know TV screen, old screen, and it's just like such it makes me sound so old. But I just loved that memory for some reason. But honey Hole and hide Hole are so similarity reminds me of like the nineties. I think it was in print a lot that time that you know, during that era or whatever. Sure, But anyway, I um, one thing I'm not trying to get too nostalgic about is the fact that we just hung some trail cameras. You don't remember that thing about, because like we were talking about the beginning, the fact of like not stopping sweating and not evaporating sweating massive amount massive sweat day. And man, we had such a a like different outlook on trail cameras this year, and we still fill into some of our like traditional traps that we had we have a hard time with. We did do it a lot, I think, less time than what we usually do, but we got out there kind of late and it still took a while and there's just like this point when you get hot enough, you no longer can like bust it to get the cameras out, and you're just like just just slow process, dredging through, drudging through whatever word is thought. So I mean, and we kind of actually you talked to Bill about this a little bit, but like at this point in time, we've decided that we're putting out cameras to pretty much be wildlife lovers, like to observe wild life see deer because it's cool, but it really I mean cameras this time you haven't helped us. There's a there's a there's a way, and there's a world where we learn certain things that help us, whether we actually know that or not, you know what I mean. I think that there's a there's a world where there are things we learned from trail camera setting in the summertime that help us out. Um. I mean, and I always think of it this way. Is like an old hunter guy back in the you know, eighties or nineties that didn't have all the technology we have, that was a good hunter sometimes and that we talked to him on the podcast sometimes like they can't explain, they cannot explain why or how to do something very well. But they can do it when it comes today, like bottom line, killing a deer, killing a big buck, whatever it might be, Like, they can do it, but they can't explain that to you. And there's a lot of guys, like, honestly, there's a lot of guys that have been on tons of podcasts I've seen and in print a lot lately that are in that category still today where like they are big buck killers, but like the value that they give to to the people who are trying to learn from them is not very much, you know, and and that may or may not be their fault, um, But they're just like the things, the things you learned from experience just allow you to make decisions during a certain day or whatever that allow you to kill a deer, and you can't always explain that. You know. It's like the the try hard guy and call you know, Tim Tebow, Like nobody wanted him in the pros, right, but like he also won some national championships and one had like a winning season with Denver. You don't want to want to playoff game, like, but nobody thought he could throw the ball at all, you know, Just like there's guys like that for instance, whether you're a fan or not that like can you know, just have these things that they can they can get it done and nobody can really explain it. So but like hopefully that's what happens with our summer trail camera. You can kind of point to that and what we did. Uh, we go in and we're looking for a place to hang a camera where we think we'll get some pictures of deer over the next month. But on the whole way, we're also talking about like, man, look at these oak trees right here. Man, that's a really great pinch or whatever. You're learning these little things that are gonna help you letter Like hey, you know what, there's no orange tape or reflectors in here. No humans have really I haven't seen an old stand anywhere like all that stuff. It's just little big bits of a knowledge that you can kind of fall back on if you remember it. And that's kind of the hard thing. It's like, I think where people who are good hunters, like there's a situation or I guess a concept where um where you separate good and great hunters is not like what they do in the stand, but it's like what they can recall from and learn from in the past, you know. And that's why I mean, there's a lot there's some young guys who kill big deer, but there's a whole bunch of older guys who can a whole bunch of big deer. And we're gonna talk to one today. Bill has been doing it for a long time. He's not real old by any means. I am not arm reston Bill Winkie anytime soon. But but he's he's he's figured it out. Man. He knows how to kill big deer. And uh, he's got his process. He's got his way of doing things. But it's not the wrong way, believe me. Yeah for sure. And and and there's a piece of property that we that we I was pleasantly surprised about that. I will I have recalled, and we'll recall. I think during the season, I'll I'll probably go to that piece of property that we got to look at this uh, this past week when we're setting trail cameras and finding those good things like a lack of stands, which um, there's no no lack of stands on public and Texas. A lot of times I thought that in Texas, you can only leave a stand up for like seven days or so. That's that is the actual rule. Apparently there's no cleaning crews going out and taking him so exactly. Uh, apparently you you can trim all the trees you want to. I know, even we're not talking Bush's trees. Yeah, we've we saw a nice little clear cut and that was not done by the stage. Um anyway, yeah, the the uh, I'm pretty excited about that, that whole thing, and and um, you know, I'm really excited to hear from Bill again here as well, just because, um, like he said, he's just been doing it so long and he's killed so many big bucks. And Bill explains things well, he's like, uh, I think his schooling is mechanical engineering. So um, he's really good at like the wife of things working. Right. So the why of how his long muscular arm would beat you an arm wrestling man, you can tell me the dynamics of that, Yeah, he could tell you it. Well. I think it's a cool thing to see, like how his uh you know you can call like a scientific mind works towards hunting, like he's not just going out there with his hair on fire. And like Chason deer down like he's he's got a reason behind everything he does. And uh, if we can learn a little bit about how to make how to do that and how to kind of influence on those tactics, I think it will help yea hopefully. And and um, I'm just hoping that you and I can recall some of the information that he gives us, like you were talking about earlier, we can recall that when it comes time this season to make some like midday movement into a new area, and we think about access and we can. Well, the good thing about podcasts is that they they are put into perpetuity on iTunes, So anytime we want to go back and listen to this one, we we can, and we probably will a couple of times. And you know, we talked to Bill last year, um and it was probably around this time, but we actually didn't release that I think until October or September or something like that. So if you want to hear um some information on like string jump and how to shoot deer uh in grunt stop situations or you know, natural situations, whatever it might be, all things like shooting alive arget, Bill Winky gave us some get information on that last year, So feel free to go back into catalog and look next last September October and get a little more of your your Bill Winky fix um. But yeah, I guess at this point it's just time to get into this year's interview with him. What do you think? Alright? So now on the phone, we've got Bill Winky from Midwest whitetail. What's happening Bill? Hey, I'm doing good. Yeah. It's starting to cool off here in the Midwest, so I'm starting up I think a little bit more about fall. What its degrees. It's hard to get too excited, man, you are not lying. It's been uh it's been pushing a hundred here the last few days in Texas, and uh it is not cooling off yet. So we're waiting on that cold front. So this morning, yeah, really, so on a day like this, um, where it kind of is like a short, small cold front in the summertime, are you seeing more dear movement or is that more than more? Likewise, we get closer to the fall now you see that all summer, you know, I mean it affects the deer two they they do it just to it of course, you know when it's ninety degrees, they don't stop eating, But we do see higher number of deer coming out into the fields, and even earlier in the evenings when it starts to cool off a little bit, you know, right after a rain, a lot of times you'll see tons of them, you know, coming out. So it's it's pretty typical. You know. What you see in the fall is kind of what you see in the summer too. You know, obviously we see a lot more deer in the summer because they're super visible. Um, I mean, we'll see deer now that we'll never see again until this time next year. That's that's crazy. Yeah, y'all plan your your summer scouting sessions there on your farm according to like these summer cold fronts and cooler days. Yeah, for sure. And and you know we kind of go and we try to go every evening once we get to August. It doesn't really matter what the weather is, you know, we just bounce around and try to film, uh, you know, different areas. Obviously we're looking for soybean, alfalfide and clover. Those are the kinds of spots where the deer more concentrated because of the high protein, but also they're easier to film in those places, so you know they will they will go into the standing corn and eat that a little bit, but it's not you know, it's more like eating you know, uh, pastries, you know, versus having a you know, a four course meal, and they kind of focus on a little bit higher quality foods during the summer. Yeah, yeah, I got you. So are there any prospects that you're excited about that you've noticed in your summer scouting. I think we'll know better here in a couple of weeks. It's only just kind of scratched the surface. So I'd say if you asked me a month from now, i'd have a real good idea for you. But we'll learn a lot in August um. And really it doesn't the real hunt doesn't start for me until after they shed their velvet and they break up their bachelor groups and they head out into their fall or dispersed into their fall ranges. That's what I really started hunting them down with the trail camera. Yeah, so that's that's uh an interesting thing that I didn't plan them talking about. But real quick, I wanted to see gather your thoughts on this. I mean, the summer range thing. Um is something that we've really noticed here in Texas. Um, I guess we It's kind of just come to my attention this year as we discussed our plan on putting trail cameras out this summer in the last couple of weeks, and um, we we talked about the fact that, man, how is it worth it? You know? I mean, is it worth the sweat and the ticks and the water moksins and everything we go through down here? And um, you know, because we we had a lot of public and in particular, we were gonna put these on public land. And it seems that when we've gotten pictures of deer in the summertime, uh, we we've only seen like one buck in the fall in that same area or really hardly at all. So it just kind of seems like they disappear right right around you know that early September to mid sep two probably um, right around or just slightly after they shed their their velvet. I mean, what are they what are they looking for when they when they take off and disappear after all summer. I'm not sure that I know what they're what they're necessarily looking for. I know what they're trying to get away from and that's the competition, um, because they they do like the bucks like each other. During the summer, you know, they'll have bachelor groups and they hang out and you'll see them they even grooming each other, and they just they're a lot more social. And then the whole antler velvet shedding cycle gets kicked off by rising levels of testosterone. So as the days start to get shorter, that triggers, you know, something in their systems with kicks out more testosterone, and then they'll shed their velvet at that point, and then that starts the process of the dispersing and breaking up those bachelor groups. Uh, they don't like each other near as much after they go hard horn as they do when they're still in Belbot, just because of that testosterone rising in their in their systems. So I think, you know, I've I've read different studies on it. Generally the assumption is that they go deeper into the cover, but I don't really know if that's true or not. I mean, we just see some bucks that will move a long ways for no apparent reason during that time, So I think it's traditional. You know, maybe they go back to where they were born, I don't know, but they spread out quite a bit. That's the main thing. The main thing is just don't be surprised when you don't find them in the same place at the end of September. Is where you found them at the end of August for sure. Yeah. So have you ever noticed that, like the most dominant buck will just stay in that summer area or is it just completely random? Usually? I mean I think it's random, but might be some studies that would that would show some kind of of a pattern there. But you know, from my experience, it's so discouraging and I just kind of I just kind of avoid the summer scouting as much as I can. We film on the field because that's pretty cool and we like to use that footage, but some of those deer, you know that we might film in one field, we might actually find him on the trail came or a mile away, you know, so you know, but if it didn't have access to a pretty good sized area or my neighbors, you know, wouldn't tell me that, hey, yeah, you know he's over here or whatever. You know, those geer would just completely fall off the radar. But he's send the summer getting all excited about a certain back Manni's and giant, I can't wait to hunt this deer, and you know, you just never see him again until the next summer, and uh, you know, I've had that happen a lot of times. So anyway, my feeling is, we do it because it's fun, but we don't do it because we feel like we're actually learning anything here in the summer, you know. Yeah, that kind of kicks in after they break up those bachelor groups and after they dispersed them, then we get serious. Yeah. Another thing that's kind of disappointing about that is that you know, it's a uh, you only get a couple of months where you feel like you're actually learning stuff about there. So it's kind of uh, you know, for somebody who's like a nubi at it, man, it's don't be discouraged. But that's just the way it is. Kind of so um. Yeah, I think anywhere from mid September until about the end of October that's kind of my learning period. And you can look in there because you'll find the occasional buckets on a daylight movement patterned during that time. But that's that's when you have to put the puzzle together because you don't want to still be trying to put it together when the hunting gets really serious. Sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. So you were talking about, you know, having access to uh, particularly large piece of property or or even neighboring properties. What was the when did you first get your piece of what you now call your farm? Your first piece I started. I actually started buying land back and Beauty was like a partnership owned a piece of land, So it wasn't it wasn't my farm, but at least it got me in the door, you know, being able to buy some hunting land. And you know a lot of times, you know, you start out by buying a part with somebody else and once you get a little bit of money, then you try to move away from that. But yeah, it's anyway getting back to that. So that's how I started. That was the first piece that I bought was my name on It was in two thousand two, and uh that was a five acres and it's got the house that we live in now. It was on that acres, so we basically bought it for the house and I maintained ownership of that partnership property that wasn't too far down the road, and then a little by little, you know, you get tired of having partners I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. It's definitely a good way to get your foot in the door. That can be pretty sustrating too, if you know, if you're sharing you know, a piece of land with somebody else and you know people don't get along really really well, that those partnerships can blow up pretty fast. Yeah. So so as soon as I could afford it, you know, I sold that partnership farm and bought some more private, you know, personal land that bordered as we started on so two. To answer your questions, when I started, and man, it was really cheap, but relatively cheap compared to now back then, so you know, I scrambled and bought as much as I could. I mean, I went deep into that as the banquet let me, and I bought everything I could possibly get my hands on. You I'm sure glad I did, now, you know, I mean I haven't bought land in a long time. You know, it's it's pretty expensive now. Yeah it's saying that somebody coming up, you know, they you still got to do it. But it's a whole different world than than when I was putting this together. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's just uh yeah, it's it's going to continue to rise. So yeah, it's never a better day then today probably, I mean, at least in the in the long run. So, um so, you've been hunting your your farm for a number of years now are parts of it at least and um, I know, I know from two thousand to to two thousand nineteen, there's a lot of things you've probably learned. Um So are there certain areas that you kind of wish you had set up differently in regards to like food placement or encouraging betting or deer travel or you know whatever that might be. Yeah, yeah, So the I mean, the trickiest part of any property is not so much you know, where did the deer live? Because in the Midwest especially, and you guys probably see it down there to because've hunded text at the fair amount. But you know, the deer, the deer will live any place there's some kind of habitat and food, you know. The from from a hunting standpoint, you're not really trying to figure out, Okay, where are the deer. You're trying to figure out where do I have an advantage? And uh so, you know, it takes a while to learn the piece of land well enough to figure out, Okay, if I come in through this route and I slip into here and I do this, I'm not going to get busted coming in and out because on paper it looks like you can get away with something. And then you know, when you hunt it. Over the course of two or three or four maybe even more years, you know, you just keep saying, well, this is supposed to work, but it's not working. Um, you know, so then we finally say, well, wait a minute, you know what, I just quit doing that then. Um. So that's the thing I think over the years that maybe you have to learned the most on this farm is you know how to get in and out of places and what places I can't hunt, you know, without bumping deer um And and as a result, a big part of the farm is a sanctuary. Just not because I'm hoping to leave a big sanctuary. I'm just leaving it as a sanctuary because it's super hard to hunt because of the entry and exit. You just running into deer, its swirling winds or whatever it might be. Those areas are just so hard to hunt that rather than going in there and educating deer, I just don't hunt those areas at all. So like default, it becomes sanctuaries. So, uh those I guess in in those in certain areas, UM, where you've maybe um, you know, you wish that it was set up differently, or um, there's a say, for instance, there's a big buck in there that you feel like you have to get creative maybe with your access. Um. You know, that's kind of an issue that we see a lot of times. I guess Casey and I that is we um if we're hunting a track of public or Casey just bought a bought his first piece of property of his farm, which is a it's a very humble eleven acres, but uh, it's a good homestead to start with, you know. And um, but it being being that it's small, you know, we we have to definitely kind of get creative, um with our access. So for you, what are the best way how do you make assumptions on like where a big buck is at the time that you're walking into a stand, just so that you're more confident in your approach. I guess, well, I think that there's a couple of ways you can look at it. Um, you need to try to figure out where he is, or more likely to figure out where he isn't. So like, let's say that maybe that half of the area around and you think, well, he could be here, he could be here, he could be here, he could be here. But then there's some places you say, well, he's not going to be here, and there's obvious reasons why. Maybe it's an open field or it's you know, your neighbor's backyard or whatever it is. I mean, you can come up with places where you know he won't be UM, but I tend to try to really key on the places where you know they're not going to be and use those as my entry and exit rather than taking risk. And that's why I'm saying. I was like on paper, you look at and think, oh, he's gonna be better up on this bridge, and if I go this way, well that might be fine. But what about those three doughs that are bettered next to the creek and they run up in his direction when you bump them or whatever you know. I mean, there's there's so many factors that go into you trying to keep the deer from knowing that they're being hunted. That over the course of years of doing it, you become more and more conservative because at first you feel like you you know what's going to happen. You think, well, I know what they're gonna do or you know. But then the more you hunt, the more you realize that you really don't know. Um, you don't know as much as you thought you knew early. So maybe ignorance is bliss. Maybe you get that great period, you know, where you just go hunting, you know, and then a little by little you're like, oh wait a minute, that's not right. Um, you know, maybe it's more fun when Maybe it's more fun when you don't know what you're doing. You're probably right there. Yeah. I think that's why guys end up not hunting when they're like much older, because they finally get so conservative they're like, you know what, I'm just not gonna bump deer for stay on the back porch. So they just stopped going Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the only way not to bump anything is to stay home. But there's stuff you can do, you know, obviously, like we're talking about. I mean, you can you can eliminate areas where you know they're not going to be utilized those The other thing that you really need to start tapping into is the normal human activity. So in my area there's a lot of farming activity. It's pretty easy for me to get away with murder in some spots because they're used to the farmers coming and going. They're used to chain saws, they're used to the farm equipment. They're not used to people sneaking around, you know. So sometimes you know the bull in the China shop approach. Uh, there's a lot better than sneaking, you know. So you come in with the tractor, or the neighbor you know, or you're cousin or whatever you know, comes by and runs you in there with the tractor, and who keeps going? You jump off until get in your tree. If you're gonna pay attention to that, they may not even look at the tractor, you know, and there might be a hundred yards away vetted and they don't realize that a guy jumped off the back, you know. So I mean there's lots of stuff you can do that takes advantage of normal human activity that's more creative. Um. Sometimes you can plant screens to sneak behind, you know, stuff like that where I've got a neighbor up the roads. He basically has planted hallways of various types of stuff, whether it's cedar trees or a miss campus and tall, tall growing brush, and he's got these little hallways and it's pretty cool. So he'll he'll leaders his little cabin there and he'll basically never jump out of that little hallway until he gets to wherever standard blind he's gonna hunt. I mean you can, you can get really creative and put a lot of time and money into it in effort and and h he has or you just have to but to be like he said, more creative and take advantage of you know what what God has already put in front of you. So yeah, and and but that is the key, you know. But he thinks, oh, you know, the I need to be in that spot where all the dear activity is. Um, that's not necessarily right. Uh. You know, all you're gonna do in a spot like that, if it's not good, it's just educate a lot of deer, you know, because those high activity areas, you know, it's a high risk, high reward kind of a setup. Because you've got a lot of reward because potentially a lot of deer could go pass that you've got a lot of risk because of the same reason a lot of deer can go pass. So that means if you're not doing it right, you know, you're educating a lot of deer. So I tend to stay away from those kinds of spots um and and just hunt more conservative, fringe type areas. And I don't hunt public land. You know, I'm hunting my farm, and I think if iut hunting public land, i'd be more aggressive, because you know, you just don't have control. You can't leave a piece on public land and say, well, I'm just gonna stay out of there, and those deer are going to be comfortable, and I can hunt the fringe of it. Well, you know, then the next guy is gonna come margin in there, you know. So that's it's a whole different game than you know. I don't know. I have funded public land over the years when I was younger, and it's a different dynamic and and uh, I just don't have near as much experience with that now. But I'm sure you know what you guys didn't do. Yeah, so do you ever conditioned deer for a certain access that you use for a place. So you're going into check trail cameras, you know, re establishing stands or what have you. And then on the killing day, Uh, you know, maybe it's November four or fifth or whatever, and you have a predetermined access route that that you haven't used all season, but that's the day you're going to use that access because it's the complete surprise to the deer. I've never gone to that extreme. Um, you know. I know people who know who drive their four wheel are all over their farm all the time. In that way, they basically feel like, you know, the deer are going to get used to it, and I can use that to get to my stand whereas otherwise it might not be able to. And I think there's something to be said for that. Again, you're just matching the normal non threatening human activity. Uh. I've never gone to the extreme of trying trying to condition them, you know, to a certain certain activity. I try to take advantage of the activity that's already out there. I I don't have I probably just don't have enough time, you know, to to do that. I think it makes sense. So, you know, and people I've even heard people say they put you know, like an old dirty shirt or something up in their trees, stand there, they do different stuff like that, you know, so the deer get used to human odor, it doesn't bother him. Um. And again, you know, I think in in certain situations that would work. It just takes a lot of time. Yeah, for sure. I feel like there is a flaw to that though to a certain point. If if you're the guy who's like, well, I'm just going to condition the deer to my a t V all year long, Well that's all well and good if everyone around you is driving a t v s too, But those you are gonna go to the soft spot. And if you're doing that and they're four acres of sanctuary behind you, the deer gonna condition to your a TV. But they're also gonna say, you know what, there's no a TV over there, So I'm just gonna go over there and lift in daytime there. Yeah. And what I've noticed too is that the deer, once they accept something is is non threatening. Um, they don't even see it like, okay, I need to avoid this area. You know. I think where the problem comes in is when you do it occasionally and they associate dress, you know, like something like you do it only when you're there to hunt them, or you do it, you know, like they know that a four wheeler here on this farm is safe, but a four wheeler over here isn't. I mean, they pick up, they're smart enough to figure that out. They just they just realize that it's safer. You know that this this is non threatening and this isn't. I think that's the categories that they look at. And I don't I don't know. I mean I, as an example, my neighbors all over the place on his farm on the four wheeler. I mean, he's just out there all the time time. There's plenty of deer on his farm. They haven't left there come over to mind, you know. I mean I think that they just get used to it, you know, and they think whatever. So I'm sure the food has more to do with it, The food in the habitat and the water availability has more to do with it than than his activity level, because he's conditioned them to the fact that he's not. Honey anyway, that the whole point of it is there's a lot of really creative, cool stuff you can do when you start tapping into the what the deer have already accepted as non threatening, right whenever you're you're plotting out of access like that and say that it's something that you're starting to employ in the season. Is there a a certain level or order in which you're worried about alerting a deer senses, you know, versus if you're accessing. Is it worse for them to see you creeping through the woods, or is it worse for them to smell you at two hundred yards or you know, is there an order to that? Yeah? I think the worst the worst thing, And you know, you're right. You need to look at that stuff on levels of fear for example, or level care. So if you put it on human terms, you know, if if you were walking down a dark alley and uh, you know, you saw somebody walking towards you, Um, you know, that would be more intimidating to you. Then if you heard a door close or something, or you heard talking somewhere in one of the rooms, you know, off the side of the alley. So there are certain things that the deer register the same way that we do. Is that in a tree that's worst case scenario? Um? And if they if they look up and see you and they recognize you for what you are and not just like some weird lump um, then that's bad because that's the spot that they're you. They're definitely going to stay away from that for a while. I mean maybe for the rest of the season. Um just depends on the beer. But you know, if they see you walking along a trail example, or you know, a farm road or something like that, you know, people do that, it's not that big of a deal. I just a little avoid I'm you know, it's like probably an hour later they forgot about it. Um, you know. But you know, so there's certain levels of danger that you represent them based on how often they you know, run into that. So like again it's location sensor. So let's say that you're back into one of your sanctuaries and you leave some human odor on the ground. They come through there and they hit it, you know, three or four hours later, that's going to raise more suspicion than if they hit it, you know, fifty yards off the edge of your of your yard. You know. So there's there's no simple answer to that. The level of the scare is going to dictate how much they change their behavior as a result of it. Uh And and normally that that's going to be based on, you know, how conflicting it is with their normal life. So you know, if they're just not used to smelling, seeing, or hearing or anything people in a certain area, they're gonna take a lot more seriously there than they would in a place where they're more used to it. And it could be in their in their range, I mean they could, they could make a pretty good sized range, and in certain parts of their range they're like, yeah, people find that in this part of my range of people, and that can't be good, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, So they're not just universally they're not just universally afraid of people there there. It's situation dependent. Yeah, makes sense. So, and I've seen you use, um, some kind of a cover that kind of went up like mid thigh or something like that. Maybe when you kind of gotten closer to your in your approach to your stand Um, what is it, I mean, what is your what are your thoughts in a situation like that? Or do you have like a general I like to do this in order to be pretty sent free going into these places. Yeah, and again it depends on where that you are likely to come from. So like an example, if I have to walk through the feeding area to get to my evening stand and the deer are gonna be coming out into that feeding area, I don't want them to smell human odor in the areas where they're going to be as they approach to stand or the blind or where they're going to be, Like if it's in a feeding area, because that's going to be they're going to react to that very negatively. Whereas there's certain approaches that I take to a blind or stand where the deer just aren't going to come from that direction, And ideally that's the way they all are, but it doesn't always work that way. So whenever I'm approaching a blind or a stand from the direction where I don't expect the deer to ever come in, I don't. I don't put anything on my lower body to to contain the odors um. But I will excuse me on those more sensitive approaches um. And I think it's again it's case Case's epic. It's a it's a little bit of inconvenience to have to carry something with and then put it on, you know, for your final approach. You know, I think the very best thing for people to do, if they're if they're really serious about that, is just where uh PPC waiters. Yeah, PPC doesn't really have any odor. And you know it, if you wear PPC waiters too, and from your tree stands, you're probably never gonna leave any ground set. They're just you're gonna sweat, You're gonna gonna be uncomfortable. I've done it, I've done and I used to hunt and those things just just for that reason. And then I had a PBC range jacket, but I would tuck into the waiters and I would duct tape that seem you know where the two went in, you know where the two mashed. You know, I put the hood on, pull it up tight, and then I you know, duct tape you could excuse me, the sleeve openings or the wrist openings. And I made it just so that no no air could get in and out of that suit and no sense could get in and out. And it really really worked. I'm a telling you that. Yeah, I mean it's you know, you think, well, some of these sense control things that we do, some of them work really well. Some of them work Okay, you know, some of them don't work at all, but that one was like almost a solution, but super uncomfortable. Yeah you know, bill uh If a person was just a casual listener and they heard you say that, and I think you're a crazy person. But with your record, you know, things like that, it shows like the level of detail that you take and and what it can actually help you accomplish. And it's just it's cool. And I guess it was just one of those situations where practicality didn't meet you know, the necessity of the suit, because I mean, we don't see you doing it that often, and they're more on Midwest wine tail. But um, yeah, no, I think I think I would do it more. I mean, you know, I think that the problem I have now there's two of us. If I was just by myself, I wouldn't carry it back, kay, I would have all my stuff in my pockets, I'd have you know, I could find I could find a way to make that reasonably practical if I was hunting by myself. The hardest part is climbing in. You're wearing waiters climbing into your tree stands, so you've gotta be really careful on how you set up, um. But also they're they're cold, you know, like when it gets really cold outside, you can really freeze ins out of that stuff because you sweat and so forth, you know, going in. But but anyway, the point is it really does work well. But there's so many compromises that we make now because there's two people, you know, and there's only so much I can do to force the guy that's filming me be is rigorous and this stuff is what I am. Um. So the simple solution now for me, anytime there's a swirling wind or it's a really wind you know, sensitive or or whatever you want to call it, we just get into one of those redneck blinds and close all the windows and then you know, there's nothing that's gonna for the most part, there's almost no odor that gets out of those, and then we can hunt those more sensitive areas like that rather than you know, just not hunting them at all. Yeah. So that's that's the one step that made that have changed quite a bit with the cameraman in the same control side is you know, we can get away with murder in those blinds with the windows closed. In the you know, everything is sealed up. But you know when when you try to get into a tree stand with two people and all the gear, it's pretty tough to to you know, beat most of the deer most of the time. You're gonna beat some of the deer some of the time. And there's ways to beat I should say, you could beat all the deer all the time with certain nothing, but you can come pretty close. But you gotta be really you gotta be very extreme, very extreme. You know. That's something that I've noticed with tolerant hunting as as a team most of the time is you both have to really be on the same page on your scene control levels. Otherwise it doesn't matter what you do if your if your buddy is, you know, walking around in diesel on the ground before he gets in the truck or whatever. You know. And I guess and in sometimes in some situations with cameraman, you could probably reduce their paycheck and it would probably incentivize them to do better. But you know, in this situation, it's more of a friendship things. So um, I guess, you know, just kind of covering those bases and one another and making things vocalized and just kind of getting on the same page as super important. But um, do you feel like anyway before before you move on, let me touch on that. The little key is you have to be way more extreme than you think to make it work. So it needed to be super extreme by yourself. It's really hard to be super extreme with two people. Sure so, but but but the point of it is you can beat most of the deer most of the time, and if you really get super extreme, you can beat almost all the deer all the time. I mean, that's that's kind of the Holy grails say, well, they never smell me, and uh, you can't get to that extreme. But it's really hard to do that when there's two people. It can be done with one person if you're crazy enough to do it. Yeah, So let me ask you this. This is kind of the kind of the crux of what we're talking about here. But uh, I think that through some of your educational stuff that you've done on Midwest White tel and stuff and and just general hunting all is like a lot of people understand sent control in the stand. But but that's gonna differ quite a bit from like the ground sense side of things, in access and in sync control in that scenario, can you can you talk about maybe a little bit of the things that you do uh for you know that ground scent control that's a little bit different than what you would use, you know, just as this general street tree stands setting. Well, the biggest mistake on on ground sent as people think it's where your foot touches the ground. It's usually not. You know, there might be a little bit of order that they pick up there, but that's really not It's it's more about where your pants uh rush against the little vegetation. That's usually where they're picking you up and and uh so you know there's ways you can do as you can mo paths. You know, you can spray around up, you can make trails to and from your your tree stands that don't have anything that you that you touch. That's one one extreme. The other extreme is just to where the waiters because then anything that you brush against, you're not leaving any odors there. So that's that's where ground center is really found. Is it's not on the ground, on the vegetation that your pants are brushing against and you know set to the woman we could really get off topics to really dive into it was whole this whole thing, because I've studied this the set stuff a bunch and uh, you know it's not it's not anything magical. They're just little molecules and how they get there. So you start you start breaking it down into simple terms. You say, well, how did that molecule get there? Well, it's either detached from my clothing or is attached to some of the you know, the particles of my clothing. If you take your hunting jacket and you get a back list and stand in front of the window with the sunlight coming in and shake it so you can see what's going to the ground, they're gonna see a bunch of stuff filtering down down to the ground coming off your hunting jacket. Well, when the wing blows, you know what does that? You know that stuff is detaching whatever it is and it's knocked down down the limb. So it's not only just your scent, it's also you know, lots of other lots of particles of the peril that you're wearing, or dinner or duff dust or whatever that's on there. Best stuff all carries your scent too, because now it's been you know, around you and in contact with your your clothing. And you know, so even brushing against something and you said, well, I just washed that you did that. You know, when you brushed against it, you just lodged a few particles, a few molecules of you know, different stuff or even you know, physical particles. The clothing itself is now very microscopically attached to that plant. Uh that's what that they're getting. And and uh so the only way to eliminate that is to eliminate the plant or to eliminate anything you know, slought ng off. And that's again where that PPC comes in because it doesn't have any surface area to speak of, you know, like it's super smooth. It's not like there's something something going to be ingrained in there that's going to come off, you know. I mean, it's just there's just nothing there. So you just know, walk past, nothing peels off it when you touch something, because there's nothing on the outside of that garment. You know, it's just it's a solid shoot of plastic basically, yeah, in polylon or whatever it is. You know. You you said you've done a lot of research and investigation to seeing and this is something that's really intriguing to me. I just think it's cool. I love the science behind the stuff we do. But um, do you feel like that any smell that is just not the normal in me? Do it smell that deer taking in is off putting or do you think that it really takes something that's um unnatural? So let me give you an example. Um, growing up around here, we hunt a lot of places to have cattle, right, so I used to always just kind of do the thing where you step in a cow paddy on the way in or whatever, and it's supposed to cover your scent whatever. You know. It's kind of the old funny hunter thing. But it almost would seem that, say, if I do that and then I walk into a pasture that doesn't have cows in it, even though that's a natural scent, it might be something alerting to a deer where they're like, hey, that's not normally in this area. What's going on? Do you feel like it's that detailed or is it more like a thing where hey, that guy smells like fa breeze, so maybe I shouldn't be here. Here's what I think about that that may do me make them go home. That's kind of weird, but it doesn't scare them because it still isn't something that they are afraid of. Yeah, there's still the deciding factor is still going to be the human odor that that cow pipe does a mask. And unless you rubbed the cow pie all the way up to your waist, which probably you aren't. Hopefully hopefully you're not rolling in it. Whatever it takes, whatever it takes. Yeah, we do off topic on that. And I heard of a guy out and down off of Colorado or where that he would roll in Elkoholo, just completely covered in that massy mud and then he would just walk right into the herd and he better killing on the first day if you're doing that because I don't want to, don't go home, don't go home, so like that. But but you know, so the cowpi didn't really do that much to help you. Just again, you know, the part that deer pickup isn't using new stuff on the bottoms of your feet anyway, it's everything else that it's your lower body brushes again, So you know that's I don't think that the cow pie hurt you. I don't think that the deer said, oh boy, there's no cows over here. They might have strugged their you know, their little shoulders and said, I don't know what that's all about. But they didn't get here, you know, from a cow, because cows canna get out, you know. So it's still going to come back to something that they consider threatening. I think if you put something into their environment that they're completely that's completely unnatural to them, Like for example, some some people say, well, I can use eucalyptus as a cover center or whatever. You know, I don't know how that affects to you. I think. I think then they look at it like, oh wait a minute, this isn't right. I don't know what that stuff is because they don't like new stuff. You know, if it's something that they understand, maybe in a slightly different location, you know, that's not a big deal. But I just don't I don't think you introduced something new that's completely foreign to the deer, because I do. I do believe they see that, at least initially as danger because they haven't figured out what it is. So so I think I think you do have to watch that, you know. I think there are cover cents out there that they probably would you know, cover human odor, but the deer would still I believe react to it. Yeah, how much attention do you put to um the scent in your truck? I feel like I see you using your truck a lot for access UM and I don't know, UM, you know your personal situation if you have just a hunting truck, or if it's the one you used for every day use. And I just feel like, UM, we do a ton of that, of course, because we hunt public lands. So you're always driving to your place right as you can't just top of the a TV and go. But I could just see where there's so many foreign scents that could end up in your truck, whether you've got to McDonald's or you get gas or whatever two days ago. And since still in there, how do you how do you also convent that well? And then think about that too from the gamepoint of you know, we were talking about the dust. You go out to your truck when the the sunlight shining in there, and slap your hand down on the seat and see what comes up. There's a cat, a duck, you know, on that duck. Every one of those little particles of dust has odor, you know, so if you sit in your truck, you are getting covered in odor, not not necessarily because of the older that's in the truck, but because of that stuff that's in your seat and all that dust and stuff. Because every time you sit down, that stuff gets on your clothes and then the wind blows or you walk and it falls off. And you know that. People don't think about oder. They think it's like a molecule that comes off their body, but it's not necessarily it's it's like anything that moves, anything that comes off your body or comes off your clothing or whatever. You know, they're there, they're all going to have some kind of an unnatural odor to them, and a lot of times it's the human odor that's you know, on those particles. But anyway, so that the only way to really do that well is to keep all your outerwear, you know, just where the Finnish amount. I used to just go totally in my long underwear. Um, you know, I mean literally the only thing I would wear it would be my long east but everything you help, you know, put it all on once I got outside of the truck. Um, but then you got can't are men in my case? You know what, I'm not gonna tell him. Now you gotta come in your loungeas and you know it's like a certain point, by a certain point in the season, you just say, uh, you know, scrap it. You know, we're we're just gonna play the wind. We're gonna you know, run the ozonics in the tree. We're gonna do everything that we can, you know, short of what we should. Um. And and again, this whole thing only works well if you do everything. You know, So there's there's a lot of compromises there, and we get away with a fair amount. You know, I talked about one of the ozonics. We've had good success with that in certain situations. But you know, unless you do everything, you might as well not really do anything because you know, and I shouldn't say that, because there is some benefit to reducing the distance down wind that the deer can smell you. Um. You know, if they can smell you a two hundred fifty yards, you know you're going to impact a greater part of your hunting area than if they can smell you about a hundred. And you say, well, you know what's the difference. Well, I mean, anything you can do to keep your hunting area fresh longer, it's going to keep the beer moving naturally longer. So you know, you want to do everything that you can, even if it's not but if you're serious about the one. Um, it's a very extreme process. It doesn't have to be a painful process. It just has to be. You have to think through everything, right, and you have to You can't just say, well, I'm gonna do pretty good here, but I'm still gonna carry my pack. Well that's not no, that you're not. You're making a partial puce that best right, Right. So I kind of have a selfish question here. I actually drew a tag in Iowa this year after five years of applying. So um, I've been map scouting quite a bit, and um, it appears to me that there are a lot more probably like cattle grazing pastures than I kind of thought. There would be, um, corn beans, that kind of thing, the regular agriculture that you might see on TV or whatever, and then uh some crp and then there's you know, especially in the public areas, there's a lot of like big timber uh draws and ridges and that kind of thing. So, um, is there any way for me to know from an aerial map where mature bucks would bed in certain stages of the season. As I look at these maps. No, I mean really, when you mentioned the count of crazing areas, I mean, that's kind of the overlooked thing in Iowa. You know, from a hunting standpoint, there's a big deer that live in those pasture areas, and that's most guys. Yeah, most guys won't knock on those doors because they're like that, I don't want to hunt around these cows. But you know, you can have some pretty good success hunting pasture farms. The deer and the cows, they're gonna get along, you know. It's not like they're hanging out together, but so you know, they are chasing each other off either. So the cows aren't necessarily going to make the deer leave. What kind of pattern are they on in that situation? Like they're they're not feeding out there, are they? You know, they would come and go and then they would leave and transition. If you're in a pasture farming in Iowa, you're not very far from an egg farm, yeah, you know. So it's not like you go a mile after mile after mile and all you have a pasture ground like you do in Park of Nebraska and the Dakotas and stuff like that, you might go half a mile when you come to the next cornfield or luss you know. I mean, it's it's pretty rare anywhere in Iowa to drive more than a half a mile with dull boy, and that'd be a long way quarter of a mile without driving past beanfield or a cornfield or an alfalfa field or something. Yeah. Cool, Yeah, that's just I was just thinking about that because I'm thinking. I was thinking a lot about you know, I can find a I felt like I can find a spot on the map where you know, it's far enough away from from an access and uh, things pinched down and look good, whether it be a terrain thing or or you know, a habitat thing. But but I was also going, Okay, well, when I access it, quickest way to access it may not be, you know, it maybe through bedding. And I guess there's just really no way when you're looking at timber to to assume where that bedding would be until you've just put boots on the ground scouted it out that way you can you can you can hear just different in the South, like if you get in the southeast, especially where it's all flat and this's a lot of plantation ground, you know where they're they're harvest in the trees pretty you know, pretty regularly. That country is really hard to figure out because there's you know, I would call it almost homogeneous, you know, across the landscape. But you get here and you've got a lot of train features. You know that if it's not, if there aren't training features, it would be corny, you know. So basically flat ground is plowed. There's almost no flat ground with tender on it. So what that tells you then is, Okay, we've got them trained to work with. What are the train features that typically with the dear bed Typically the deer bed on the ridges because they like the higher and there's a lot of you know, you start really get into how they how they bed and where they bed and why. Usually they'll bed on the down wind edge of a ridge or a high area and let the wind tell them what's going on behind them, and then they let their eyes tell them, you know, what's going on in front of them. Uh, that's a real common pattern. So what I use then almost the ditches and the creeks you would come and go because typically you'll walk right past here down in those ditches and down in those creeks. Um, it's a little bit tougher on public line because you can't take the chainsaw and clean those out, you know, So the traversing through those can be really rough because you know, the trees blow down, they get all snacked up in there from the run off and stuff. But on my farm, I just go through those ditches and with the chainsaw and and clean them out, you know, so I can walk through them pretty easily. But that that's kind of those are the I would call them like the almost super highways, you know for the hunter entry and exit routes, because you can you can blow right past the betted deer because you're not walking through them, so you have to walk down a ridge. Walking down ridges is not a good idea in this country. Yeah, So you want to stay off those ridges except when you're actually in your stand because that's where the deer are most of the time. And I wouldn't say that, I'd say when they're moving, you know, when they're traveling in the mornings and the evenings, you're the bucks are running and they're going here there, and they're crossing creeks and they're making scrapes in those bottoms and stuff like that, but typically that's not where the deer are betted. They're usually betted up a little bit higher. Yeah, got you. So. UM it's funny that you mentioned the creek thing because that was my next question for you, because it seems like that's something that almost every year I've seen you talk about on mid West Wyde tail and it's so so educational because, UM, I feel like, besides the size of deer, in the amount of agriculture around, we have pretty similar terrain where we live. We don't have quite the drastic hills, but we have a lot of creaky bottoms were you know, with some more harm was u And it's something I would really like to start um implementing if if I could. Um, do you always make sure that you're using those creek accesses heading upstream? Because I know that thermal's in a creek, you're going to kind of go with the terrain, So I would imagine that you always want to be heading upstream so that that thermal action doesn't push your wind ahead of you. The thermals, they are really only a factor when there's very little day daytime wind. You know that unless you've got really great elevation changes. You know, I've hunted a fair amount out in the mountains and Colorado, even for white jails. And then you'll get massive elevation changes where you get these downward thermals coming off the mountains and running down through the valleys and pushing everything in front of them. But in this kind of country, but your elevation change might only be a couple hundred feet, And it takes a pretty still day for that thermal to become the dominant airflow because the day wind, let's say you gotta eight mile wind from the south that's gonna affect everything. That thermal is only going to be a factor if the wind is light and variable. Then you have to play the thermals. The rest of the time you played the day wind, because there's not enough elevation change for those thermals to be strong. You know, it takes you know, the gain momentum, Like in the mountains, they gained momentum until they're thermal, you know, coming down in the morning. You know, it could really be blown coming off the mountains in the morning and then start you know, really blowing up. You know, as the day goes on and the sun gets in there. It's not like that here because the elevation changes aren't aren't enough to you know, for that much movement to take place, you get very subtle thermal um. So I never play in the thermals. We kept on light and variable wind days, which are probably two or three or four a year at the most. Is it worth using a creek access if you've never been there to prep it? Or is it going to be a situation where you make too much noise trying to make it through there? Uh? Uh, it's I would scout at first to find out, because you could you could run into a real snag, you know, going down through some of those And yeah, you know if if the first time you go through there, it's dark and you're trying to fight down through there, and you've never walked it before, and and you could run into fifty down trees you got to under. I'm not exaggerating either. I mean it could be a nightmare, be like one of those Spartan challenges, you know, you've got to climb over and understuff. But I would definitely pre scout any of those things. I wouldn't just take my aerial photo. And god, there's a cool bitch, I'm gonna use that. I would make sure I got on private land. On private land, you know, you clean them out and they're just awesome. Then you just drop into those things and just go. You don't even know you're coming and going, yeah what about Okay? So in our country, a lot of times some of the best habitat is along the creeks. So you have deer betting in super close proximity. Uh do you do you worry about that? And you're situations you're talking about using creek access or does it seem like they're bedded further or are is it really that full proof to where even if there's a deer beded teen yards off of you know, the center of the creek, you're not bumping that deer. I wouldn't be in the creeks at the deer bedding next to the creek. I mean I used to found Kansas quite a bit and that was all creep country. It was black ground. The only place or any trees was around the creek. The deer bedded in those ox bows right up next to the creeks. So I never I never used the creeks for access then, because that's where the deer were at all the time. You might cross the creek someplace, you know, to come in, you to sneak in from the back side or whatever. You might cross it, but you never walk up and down it because that's where the deer on. But but here it's different because like I said, I mean the creeks and the ditches are down in the gifts and the ditches and the draws, and the deer the typically bedded up on the ridges you know, that are adjacent to those. Um You know that you have to look for patterns or for um tendency. You know, there's never an absolute You can never say, oh, they're never gonna better down here along the creek. There might be something, you know, but the tendency is for the deer to be up on the ridges. M hm. And that's you just have to go with tendencies unity h. Like I said, there's but yeah, they're bedded near the creek. I would not use the creek, that would I would figure out how to probably speak in from the back door whatever that is. Yeah, got you so? Uh. You know, this whole concept of excess is trying to make it the best you can and get in with minimal intrusion and be you know, just have a clean slate to hunt with, right and trying to be foolproof. But I know when hunting big mature bucks like that's that can be different. So when is fullproof really no longer fullproof in your opinion, m you'll know, you'll know if if if you're educating deer that the easiest way to know is if you hunt the spot second time and you don't see there as much, then then you know it didn't work. Basically, unless the conditions are way different, you know, like that's got really warm, or you know, something is you know, change the behavior of the deer. Um. Because I've got spots that I can hunt every single day that the wind is out of the west, for example, and I never have to worry about it because the access is so bulletproof and so fuel proof that I continue to see movement. That's the real test. And again, you know, we talked about you know, fine tuning a hunting area over the course of years, and and I think it takes realistically, it takes at least three years. They have a pretty good feel for how to hunt an area, um, what stuff you can get away with and what you can, because there's certain things you think, well, I got this figured out on paper, this makes sense, but it just doesn't quite work that way in the real world. You know, sometimes it will and you can you have to go that route because you know, you just don't have the benefit of you know, preseason scouting or those three years you know of of experience. So you have to make those assumptions and you have to you know, use the area photos and you have to base your strategies on that. But over the course of time, you'll find that some of that didn't work. Um and a lot of times you don't really even know why. Maybe it's ground set, maybe it's something you just don't know exactly what happened. All you know is the second time and the third time you hunt the spot, it just isn't nearly as good, or you may be very apparent because you're in there in the deer like stomping and snorted and stuff, and then you know it didn't work. Yeah, makes sense. Well, Bill, this has been an awesome conversation. I appreciate it's been super helpful for me personally as I try to take on your state next year for the first time and um, and just also, just like Casey said earlier, we've got a lot of parallels in the way our country kind of looks to your two years here in Northeast Texas, and um, so it definitely helps us in in private and public stuff around here to be able to talk to you about access and and UM, I guess my last question for you though, is, um, when can we expect some Chasing November August first? Yeah, yeah, so that that series recently, I emerged that it was like emerged with Real Tree, you know, the camouflage company, and we created a new company called real Tree Digital. So real Tree Digital and part owner of real Tree Digital, and real Tree Digital owns that us white Tail Chasing, November Spring Thunder, you know, all the stuff that we were producing before. Um. But we've created a new app, a new platform video platform called real Tree three Real Tree and that's uh Chacking. Novembers pop up on there, I think at least a week or two prior to when we released it on our other platforms, just to give that that new platform bit of a boost so that people are are more drawn to that. We want people using that more than you know, there's a lot of problems long term with YouTube for hunters. You know, we were trying to find ways to wean you know, our stuff off YouTube, get people onto something that's going to be more permanent. Uh. I'm not saying that YouTube is not a big, big machine. It's just that there are a lot of agendas there when you start looking at you know, what gets promoted, and now they're like completely anti gun. You know, like if you have a anything with guns, if you even put gun in the description, you know that they won't ever be promoted among their their videos that they push out, you know. So it's there's a lot of long term problems with YouTube. So we're trying to solve that if we can, you know, step by step by getting that real three or three sixty five is being a primary video platform for the outdoors. So and that's how we're really pushing that. Just know right now, if you go on there, you can watch all the Monster Bucks Volume one for free, you know, Realtory Monster Box videos the last week actually, So I had no idea that you were involved with that, but that's really cool and I was just like, wow, monster Bucks for free. Yeah, yeah, So that was that was one thing we did is trying to get that launched, you know, drop people's attention to it, and it's that pretty good response from that. It's just a long term process, you know, creating of habits. You know, people they're used to going to YouTube, and you know, I don't blame them in this pretty convenient platform, you know, for watching video, but long term for hunters especially, there's gonna be problems with YouTube. So we're just taking those steps now so that you know, five ten years from now, we're not all shaking our heads thinking, man, what happened? Man, You've always been ahead of the game in in the media world. I feel like you just can you can just have such a good foresight. I feel like, you know, and yeah, it's it's just been a gift, I guess that. You know. I've just been fortunate to kind of know enough people or to see trends maybe other people don't see as clearly, you know, whatever. It is, just but this is definitely one that if if people will take the time and pop over there to REALTI you can watch the Monster Box videos for free. Volume two is going to come out if it's in two another week, I think a week from today. Volume two is going to come out. Volume one is available on there right now, and then uh, August one that Chasing November will pop up on Realtory five. It'll one there for either a week or two before we start running it on our other our other platforms. So that was a long answer question. That's no, that's good. That's good. That's part of the podcasting world is hope hopefully you get long answers to short questions. But I appreciate U. I appreciate that. Will definitely link to that in the show notes, so if the listeners interested it on over there, click the link in the show notes bill Again, tons of great information. I appreciate what you've done for the hunting community and just being a leader and um, a good leader, um as opposed to some of the other personalities you might see and um. And then also just the foresight to help take care of hunters like you're talking about with thrill three three six five. That's a very important thing. Something Casey and I have talked about quite a bit because, uh, you know, we currently have a lot of stuff on YouTube as well, and it's uh, it's a it's a big issue. A lot of people are worried about in the outdoor space right now, the fact that you can't shoot a deer with a gun, and and uh have much much success showing that to people on YouTube. So but we just appreciate your leadership and uh hopefully we'll get to talk to you again next year too. Excellent. Yeah, just let me know, you know when what do you want me again? And I'm usually pretty flexible. Yeah, that's always fun. I mean, like talking about hunting. So it's just an excuse to it half right, cool man. Well, well we'll talk to you soon. Have a great fall. If I don't talk to you before then, all right, thanks, good much to you as you make the trip up to IWA and and you have to have a good fall yourself. Appreciate it. Thanks Bill Man. There's just something about Bill Winky that like means I get almost like no fun intended. I mean, it feels like you're in November, you know what I mean. It's like when you're talking to Bill, it's it's hunting season, you know what I mean, Like there's at any chance to could walk out even in this farking lot right here. You know that's right, man, He's just a tactician, you know, and he's like a guy when he speaks, I'll listen, you know what I mean, Like he just he knows his stuff. He's a pleasure to talk to you. Like just a stand up dude. Man. I sent my dad a link. My dad's like the least technologically advanced person in the entire world. Um he I sent him the Chasing November length the other day, which is Bill's one of bills series on YouTube and it's awesome him. We just you just heard us kind of talk about it. But now yeah, so a couple of plays you can get it. But I told my dad, was like, dude, you need to subscribe, and like, because my dad was complaining, He's like, well, now the basketball is over, like there's really and then football hadn't started. He's like, this's just dead on TV. There's nothing to watch on TV, you know. And I'm like, dude, you have a smart TV, which, by the way, we I got it working for him yesterday because they've had it for two years and don't know how to work it or whatever. So I was like, dude, you have a smart TV. Like put some Midwest Wide till on and watch it. Dade like, what what is your problem? He's like excited about deer hunting, but he don't want to watch it. They don't want to, you know, figure out how to watch it. So anyway, I was like, you need to watch this, and and I said, Bill is a really good narrator. And that's one thing I like about that chasing over every series, Like it takes a little bit of like thought and also just a good voice and like everything to just become a good narrator. And I think Bill being a writer for so long also makes that it's a good series. Man. So uh, it hypes me up. Um. Speaking of YouTube, UM, we have got a lot going on to YouTube right now. So if you're like struggling to follow what we're doing now, I'm sorry, but we've been all over the place, all literally all over the place. Um. I went on that long vacation that was four weeks and so I'm getting into um by the time this releases, Um, you guys will be able to watch the second leg of that vacation, which uh is basically from when we left the HeLa up to um like northern California area. So uh, there is a huge trout in this video. So um, and uh, it was a so this is the thing I've talked about the huge trout already, but I looked at the footage and it's a nine minute clip of it's a big one. Yeah. So I fought fought the fish for nine minutes. Like that's a long fight, especially in freshwater, you know. Um, A lot of it was just me like figuring out what to do with the fish, Like it was just like just sitting in a spot, uh, trying to keep from fighting the current, you know, but it was it was so much, so much fun, and I left a lot of it in there. I know a lot of people, you know, like you were talking about earlier, kind of off the air with bills, like you know, sometimes there's a lot of flash going on on YouTube and this and that, and a lot of people like to cut down these fights like to nothing. And I just think that that's such a an important part of like the story of a fish. You know, like when you land a fish, if there wasn't much of a fight, it's kind of like, well, yeah, it's a cool achievement to get that fish to bite and everything, but that's only half of it, like getting the fish in I mean it's tough. The biggest fish from our Montana film last year broke you off, you know. I mean that's like it just happens, like big fish are gonna break you off. So I think the fight is just a big spot of it. I put a lot of that in there, so you know, feel free to fast forward through it if you want. But I like that stuff, so it's in there. Um. Also, um, we have been doing a lot of cameos lately. If you listen to last week's podcast, we did a big review of our system, and um, that was fun. I like doing that. Yeah, it's cool, and it's kind of cool to do the video with it. So it's not like, hey, guys, we're talking about things you can't see. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, go watch that and then you can listen to it too. If you are driving or whatever, don't watch it, just listen. Yeah you understand. Yeah, there's but there's an opportunity to to see what we're actually talking about with the gear. So hopefully that is uh helpful and informative when you go to make your decision on buying gear. And man, you know, we've had some people kind of rib us about, oh, you're shooting a two thousand and six bow, but you've got new sicker or whatever. And uh, I think if you are pretty rational about it, you understand that a you can get that stuff pretty cheap used online, especially considering the quality of gear it is, and be um you can um you also you know understand hopefully that a lot of this stuff was Christmas presents and given to us by certain people. So you know, we're just lucky to be able to We didn't really talk too much about that either. Is it takes a lot less commitment to have a new piece of sick of gear like a jacket than it does a new bow, like money aside, A new bow is two months of work, a new sick of jacket is putting it on, you know. So like, I mean, there's been times in my life when I was like, I want a new boat or whatever, but I don't really have the time to like get a new set up. So you know there's something else to kind of think about that for sure. That's a good point. Um. But anyway, we've we've we've water off our you know whatever. They didn't bother me, but I just wanted to kind of put that in perspective for for guys that may be like, why I don't understand this, UM, But yeah, there's that and then um uh. We also had the pleasure last year at a t A of reviewing the UM getting a review via three very experienced and involved individuals of the fanatic system that that sick could put out. So we released video. If you're interested in that kind of thing, you're looking up your cameos system or whatever. That's the kind of info that we have. Nobody else has sent us any gear to try out UM, so we're thankful that at least one company hasn't. That's right, so UM, well we'll take it. And that's what we've got. UM. If you want some real tree, then maybe you can holler Bill Hey, if y'all U, if y'all uh didn't hear the first part of this here intro or when we did the intro earlier. Remember they give away. Remember we're giving away some binoculars, maybe a trill camera if you give us anough reviews like get up on that right, give us some five star reviews on iTunes or actually Apple podcasts now sorry they've done away with iTunes supposedly, but give us review over there. It really helps us that a ton guys. That's right. Uh man, is there anything else that you got that you want to talk about? I mean, I'll like talk about all kinds of stuff, but right now I'm kind of really to get my day going for me too. Man. It's uh, is it gordit this time? Yeah? I don't think so always? He looked bright. That's right, that's right. Okay, ok, say, I got to eat more avocad quick. You know what's something I saw the other day. It was a breakdown on how slang becomes a thing. Uh. It starts out where you hear something and you think it's stupid, and then you start using it like uh uh satirically, and then you end up using it for real. And that's exactly what I just did. I called you Brian, and I hated that for so long, but now it's a part of what I said. So hey, that just shows you, man, you don't need to be too judgment rights, right, that's right. I think you're cool. You just don't realize they're cool yet. That's right. That's right. Well all right, man, Well God bless you guys. Remember it. This is your element living it

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