00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, what's up, my woods people. I'm Tyler Jones and this is the back Country Many series from the Element podcast Casey fill them in. Since we're diving head first into the back country hunting this season, we decided to call in some help and talk to some experts that know how to crush it in the back country. So make sure and subscribe. And if this is helpful, we'd love for you guys to give us a five star rating. And and I t interview absolutely. Now let's get into it because I still have a lot of mountain house flavors to try before September gets here. Alright to day on the show, we've got Jay Scott of Jay Scott Outdoors. Jay, what is happening? Man? How are you guys? A little warm? It's hot down here in Texas, but I understand you are where it is a lot cooler than we are, is all right? I am. I spend the summers in the fall and uh Colorado. My summer places actually between Glenwood Springs and Aspen and here in the Roaring Fork Valley. And we usually get here about the fifteenth of May, right after my Gould's turkey hunts down in Mexico. We come straight up here, and you know, this year has been a kind of a crazy year because of all the snowfall Colorado in general has all across the Southwest, but Colorado just got absolutely pounded with snow, especially late snow. You know, a lot of that March April uh snow. And our runoff, to be honest with you guys, is probably a full thirty days behind as far as our rivers and such. The Roaring Fork River that runs right here, um, right down the valley. Uh, it's just becoming fishable whereas it's normally fishable, you know, the end of June. So uh, you know, it's good. I've been hiking a lot in the high country and you know, the although we haven't had just tons and tons of monsoner type rain, uh, you know, showers periodic here and there, but the vegetation is just it looks like a tropical rainforest out there. And you know, the elk and the deer and it's just the animals and animals seem to be doing really good. So yeah, it's the fall. This fall two thousand nineteen season all across the Southwest is something that you know, we're all super excited about and and I can't wait for it to get here. You know, there's antelope phunts starting here in Colorado and you know, mule deer hunts in Arizona. It's um stuff is really starting to happen right now. A bunch of my buddies have gotten back from doll sheep hunts, so it's on. You know, nineteen season is here. I know, man, it's crazy. We uh for us, it's a lot of trying to run and make it to where we are not or the least amount of flat landers we can be where we're from. You know, it's pretty tough to do. But you know, it's up in Colorado, I guess, uh the second week of July, and I mean the rivers were raging there. You could pretty much only fish tail waters and high mountain streams and that was it. You know, all the lakes up high we're frozen over or so no fish to be done there. And we we kind of struggled to fish, uh, to find just fishable water. You know, at the know, all the tailwaters are okay off the tape ler and some of the other stuff was pretty good, but it was it was a different year. I think I saw that some of the snowfall was up to two thousand percent of the averages or something like that. Is that right? You know, I saw some crazy numbers myself. I don't know exactly how they measured that, but yeah, there was some ridiculous snowfall totals out there for sure. And you know, my fishing has been fairly limited to the ranch that we live on here. Got quite a bit of spring creek fishing here. But you know, I've made two trips up to the Green River and cut the cicada hatch, and then we hiked the boat down in the Gunnison Gorge and just cut the salmon fly hatch, just head on um and fished the eagle a couple of days ago. And you know, here before I head over to the six Ranch, which is in south central Colorado, here around the first September, I'll get quite a few days here on the Roaring Fork and uh, kind of all around the Colorado and in this area right here. So it definitely has been one of these summers that you know, it's awesome because we need the moisture, we need the water. It's good for the streams. But as a fisherman, Uh. You know, normally I would already have big callouses on my hands from rowing my raft and my boat around and what have you. And you know, really haven't seen that. So um. You know, I've rode some but not you know, normally i'd probably have you know, forty days in by now, and I've probably got ten or twelve. So but yeah, it's uh, it's awesome. You know. The vegetation is is lush, and I think the elk and deer especially are doing well pretty much all over the Southwest. Something that's interested in our monsoonal rains, which usually come you know, in Arizona. I live half the year in Arizona. Um, and that's where I'm from. I guided elk for twenty years in the state of Arizona, and our monsoonal range usually kick in around the fourth of July. Uh. And to be honest with you, really we didn't have much rain until probably about the twenty a lie. So as wet of a winter that we had and as wet of a spring that we had, we really did not follow that up, which I was just hoping for the perfect storm of you know, great winter, great spring, and great monsoonal Well so far, the monsoons have really not hit widespread across Arizona, which then all funnels up into Utah and New Mexico. And where I'm going with that is a lot of my buddies that are guiding our saying, you know, and our growth looks good, but the country looks dry. We could sure use some moisture just to green it up. Um. And then me being you know, kind of a selfish pig, just wanting Arizona to just have the biggest, most giant bulls around. Um, you know, I think I think by not having that monsoonal moisture, it doesn't affect the elk as much, but I think the deer can benefit from it. Um. But we'll see. It's it's still above average. And um, you know they've already had some really good bowls shot really big buck on the on the script was shot today and UM, so yeah, it's uh, it's gonna be another great year for sure. Yeah. That's exciting, especially for for someone your profession, you know. And I think it's cool that you know, you can kind of plot these years out and then kind of know what to expect and what to look forward to. And uh, something that I'm very interested in that. Your proponent of is is you are an antler guy like you enjoy large scoring animals. And now it's it's almost like it's cool across social media too to say, oh, it's not about the horns and this and that. Well it isn't. It isn't until it is right, because we all dream of going these trophy units and and being able to to hunt for really big, world class animals. And I think that when people do that, they almost sometimes take away from you know, how rare, how majestic of a creature that is. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, for sure. I mean I on my podcast, I don't make any I don't make any excuses. I am a trophy hunter. I will till the day I die. I love the meat. That doesn't mean I don't take the meat. I think trophy hunting has got a bad connotation. I love being selective. I love being able to feel judge and look at animals and try and harvest the most mature animals I can. When I do catch some flak on my Instagram because I do try and help and educate people to be as accurate as they can with their field judging that's simply coming from a standpoint of I want to be accurate. I want to be UM credible and I don't have I want to eliminate the factor of saying, oh, that bowl was a jinny was three ninety? Well how long was point? Well, I don't know, he was three ninety. So you know, with all of the animals that I hunt, I try and study. I try and keep lots of photos. I try and keep as much data as I can to be as accurate being a professional guide. When a client asks you what's that rams go or Buckscore bull score, you know, I want to be the guy and I always have wanted wanted to be the guy that's credible UM, not from a standpoint of an ego standpoint, but more to be reliable. And and you know, when a client says, you know, how old is that ram and you know how big is he? I want to come very very close to the correct score. UH. And so I try and focus, and I have for a long time, try and focus on helping people. UH. You know, be able to UH analyze and to kind of step away from the emotion of the situation, and you know, be able to put UH number one body size and kind of age on animals and judge every animal. You know, how big is the body. Okay, he's got a giant body that's gonna make his rack look different or his horns look different, whatever we're judging. Um. But you know, it all goes back to uh in Arizona, growing up there. Uh and you know, having in my opinion, probably the best trophy hunting as far as mature animals anywhere in the country. Uh. It's important. A lot of guys wait years to draw tags. And I never wanted to be the guy that said it was a you know, three sixty bull and you get up there and it's three fifteen. And it happens all the time to people. And I think the reason it happens is they don't take the time to really study and analyze and try and be as accurate as possible. Um. You know. I sometimes I'll get people that criticize and say that, oh, you're just an antler snob, You're just you know, I say, well, in my opinion, everybody's a trophy hunter, and and the and the I don't know anybody that if there's two bucks standing there and there's a two point buck, that's you know, a two year old buck and then there's a thirty in buck with kickers off both sides. I don't know a single person that says I'm gonna shoot the two year old because this meat is going to be more tender. I just I don't run into any of those type of people. There may be people that say, oh, yeah, I shoot the two point, but the reality is, you know, those people are going to shoot thet buck with the trash all the time. Yeah, you know, there's there's not gonna be a time. I just don't see it. So we're all trophy hunters, I believe. And you know, the term has been thrown around in the media, it's been political, politicized and what have you. But if you know, if anybody spends any amount of time with me in the woods, they understand that I want to shoot the buck that is on the downhill slide or that is at the top of of of you know, his peak performance and over some of the younger animals. And I want to be able to accurately tell someone if it's you know, in buck or you know, hundred and seventy inch ram or a three bull uh, just from a credibility standpoint. I just think, you know, having people around that can accurately feel judge. When you guys are going on a hunt, your buddy goes out and he glasses up the bull and you've got some good action going. He pulls you off to go look at another bull, and you're like, man, I had four bowls bigger than that one where I just was. So that's my whole goal of trying to help people evaluate. And I have people send me, you know, photos of stuff all the time and try and get my opinion. And I just try and call it what it is. I don't ever try and sugarcoat it or make it sound better than it is. I just try and you know, call a spade a spade. Yeah that's you know, I've never heard it really put that way, but it makes so much sense. And I actually tag Case all the time in your posts whenever you do I guess this bull you know kind of thing. Because you know, we got um, as we talked about earlier off air, he drew a pretty good tag. So um it's it's not that he's going to be disappointed with and Elk at all, but when you put in for that tag, you expect that if you draw that tag, you have a chance at a pretty big bull. And so, um, you know, we want to be pretty accurate there, and so yeah, and and I would also like to say that, you know, I know there's lots of hunts where any bowl or any buck is a phenomenal feat. So you know, the guys out there listing that maybe live in states where that you know that there's not super high end quality or mature animals. I totally get it. Like I know that in Colorado, OTC. Shooting any bowl is in most cases as a fantastic bull. I get it. But when you look at New Mexico, you look at Utah, you look at you know, Arizona, some some of the units in Nevada, what have you there? You know there are units that take a long long time to draw, and you're gonna see a lot of bulls and you're gonna have a lot of opportunities. So why not educate yourself and try and figure out, you know, exactly what it is you're looking at so that you can make an educated decision. You know, I'm the guy that you know encourages people to go the full length of the hunt. And you know, I'd rather weed through a bunch of bulls and shoot the one I want than just shoot one on the first day and go. Man, if I would have done a little more research and figured it out, you know, this is just this is a this is a caliber bull that you'll see every single day on this hunt. And you never give your chances, you know, a chance to shoot a big bull so or buck or what have you. So you know, I get it though, when there's certain hunts and certain units and certain animals that it's like, if you get one, it's a successful hunt. I'm all four that sure. Yeah, I mean when you put when you've been putting in for twenty years, I mean, do you really want your hunt to end that first day unless it actually is like world class, you know, and so uh, you know, you kind of it's like I'm putting in for twenty years and my hunt lasted a day and I shot a bull that was, like you said, an everyday occurrence there, then you kind of, uh, you kind of have to take all that into into consideration. And and I've never heard of, you know, from from the professional standpoint, and I appreciate that because I'm a wedding videographer. By trade. I do high end wedding films, and um, I don't there are things that I really don't love about my clients. Um, their vanity, uh in a lot of situations, and just the big show that it becomes at a wedding instead of more focused on a husband marrying a wife and the two um joining as one and just having that relationship in that moment together. And so it turns into this kind of circus for Instagram kind of thing. And but the thing is, in the end of the day, I'm hired to do a job, So I do what that bride would appreciate, you know what I mean, Uh, as long as it's not against my morals or values obviously, but you know that's what I that's what I do. So Uh, it's in a similar boat as to what you're we're talking about there. You're trying to do something is accurate as you possibly can so that your your your client is satisfied in the end as opposed to being disappointed. Yeah, And I feel like the reputation, you know, that's really your word and reputation or all you have when it comes down to it. And I've just always tried to be accurate. I've always tried to be credible. Um the biggest thing. It would just you know, rock me to my core as if someone says I wasn't credible or I wasn't accurate. Now, everybody, everybody can make mistakes, and I've I've dankshire made, you know, made my own mistakes, but you know, being able to say something and have someone say okay, Jay saying it's this, and it's this and you know everything. He's not just throwing something out there on a whim. He's he's studied in and he's trying to be as accurate as possible. And you know, I think we've all seen it where we have hunting partners and people in hunting camp that you know, oh, I saw six bucks and you know I saw you know, three of them were thirty inches and you know I had kickers off both sides and you just shake your head and you're like, yeah, all right. And then you have someone that comes in and says, hey, man, I saw a bucket you really probably need to focus on and take a look at. And depending on that person's character and their track record, depends on whether you know that it dictates whether you're gonna go even look for that buck. You know. Uh, my hunting partner, Dark Colburn, if he ever tells me, hey, I think you need to come over and take a look at it. I mean I run there. I get there as fast as I can, because you know, it's usually something giant. Not the whole time, I'm you know, like, what is it? What is it? What is it? Just get over here, you know. So you know, and we've all had the same guys that are like, yeah, I saw you know, four in bowl and then a he he beat up a three eighty bowl and you know, just like and then you don't even go there that afternoon because you know he's full of bowl. Yeah, don't be that guy. So don't be that guy. Yeah. So you know you said you were a guide for Elk for twenty years. Um, I guess you've moved kind of in the sheep direction a little bit more. No, Um, to be honest with you, I was, I guided Elk in the state of Arizona for twenty years. And in two thousand seventeen, a good friend of mine bought a ranch it's called the Odd six Ranch in south central Colorado and asked me to be kind of quote unquote the hunt manager. It's just for him and his his family. Uh. We we are in the Colorado Ranching for Wildlife program, so we do have one public bull tag that we give and then we have some cow tags in December and January. Uh. And so I was faced with the decision of do I want to give up guiding? So twenty years in a row, I took the entire month of September off, not like you hear guys, Oh yeah, I'm hunting and sept I'm taking September like I took off and was gone from the entire month and even into the first week of October. I first time I heard an elk bugle, I told myself, I don't ever want to miss that month of September. So I've spent you know, now probably twenty I'm getting old, but let's probably twenty three years of spending the entire I mean waking up every single morning at three am in September going and video and chasing and taking photos and and you know, calling, and you know, just messing with elk. I love elk Um. You know I still guide sheep in Arizona. Uh. This December, I've got some sheep hunters, and we still do coustar hunting in Mexico and then Gould's Turkey in Mexico, uh in the spring. But you know, elk was such a focus of mine in the state of Arizona for so long. But this opportunity to be on an unbelievable private ranch and basically do exactly what I did for twenty years, and that's you know, video these Elk monitor these Elk glassies, elk you know, um, just watch them, categorize them, classify them, you know, and and you know, we're trying to build a phenomenal elk herd uh. You know in the state of Colorado there at the Odd six and you know, I think we've had a couple of good years of shooting some management bulls and you know, someday I think it will be recognized as one of the top ranches in the West for bulls. Uh. So that kind of the shift of my focus. And um, it's it's yeah, it's a sweet gig. Cool. That's very cool, man. And uh. I've kind of followed along a little bit, uh and been able to at least see some of the media that you've been producing from there. You know, just some giant bulls and great pictures and video of just some some killer bulls. And I so much appreciate, um when you do those um Instagram things where it is the guests the score. Let's talk about this and and evaluate that, because I am one of those hunters who has spent my whole hunting life on the over the counter units and uh, you know, the first uh was it five inch brow time bull that comes in or whatever is legal? It's legal. I'm doing my best to actually first cow, you know, first legal animal, um, because I like to eat, but I love to shoot big things. But I just never had the chance. And now, uh kind of, since I've drawn a a new Mexico Heilo Wilderness tag, I'm having to shift focus a touch. I'm trying to manage my expectations, of course, but I do need to consider, like, hey, if a raggie comes in, probably I'm not going to shoot him, you know, so I need to be able to make those little quick, you know, determinations on is this really a shooter bull or is this something that's Um, I'd be happier extending my hunt as opposed to you know, ending it now. And uh you know, I appreciate that. So yeah, I think, sorry to interrupt, you know. To further that, I think you have to ask yourself. And you know, when I go out on my own personal hunts and such, I ask myself what would I be happy with on the last day? So would I be happy? And I am? I fine going without one? And you know, if this is one of your first, you know, prime hunts, you know, maybe you're saying, I really want to get a bull, so I want to leave, So kind of ask yourself a few questions. You know, I really want to get a bull. Okay, that's that's I'm I want to leave with the bull. Okay, what size would I just be over the moon with if I kill you know, a three fifty bowl or a three thirty bowl or a three eight bowl. What would I just be over the moon? Say? Well, jeez, if I could get anything, you know, remotely close to three fifty, I'd be just stoked. Okay. So then you go into it with the expectation of, like, I'm hunting for a three fifty bowl, and if a three hundred bull comes in bugling on the first day, you've already set your mind that you want a three fifty bull. The only thing I would encourage you, like I talked to a lot of hunters, is don't set the bar so high that it's not achievable and takes the fun out of it. If you're no, you'd be tickled pink with a three twenty six by six, Then say, I'd really like a three sixty three seventy, but I'd be tickled pink with a three twenty. So you know, if in the first couple of days I get a beautiful opportunity at a perfect six by six, you know, three twenty class that's bugling and comes right in and I can make a great shot, then shoot it and be happy. Um. Or on the flip side, you say, hey, even though I've never killed the bull, I want to, you know, three fifty plus. Then hunt the whole time and kill a three fifty plus or don't kill I mean, at some point you have to go through the rounds of you know, drawing back on a bull, maintaining your composure, making a great shot, and you know, going through all of those steps. Uh, and certainly guys that have shot, you know, a bunch of bulls. I'm I firmly believe that you know, because of repetition, they are probably going to be a better hunter or are better archer in that situation because they've they've done it. Um, but you know, set your expectations, you know, And and I always say, going to the hunt trying to have as much fun as you possibly can. For me, you know, I've shot a handful of bulls, and I've shot a handful of good ones. I'm wanting to shoot something that's you know, really gets me going that I look at and say, man, that's different than anything I've ever shot. Or you know, I want us to shoot X y Z bowl. And you know, I had a tag two thousand sixteen and the Beaver one of the best units in Utah. And I had a great friend of mine helping me on the hunt, and he had scouted out some bulls and had a history with one particular bull. And UM, I saw a bucks of the trail cameras and I said, you know, that's the bowl. That's the bowl I want hunt. I said, you know, I've shot a lot of big bulls. If I kill this bullet won't be the biggest bull I've killed. It's probably one of the biggest in this unit. But I'm i that if if I don't get that ball, I'm going home with that one. And I mean I hunted the entire hunt, had two opportunities at him, and quite honestly should have got it done. I never released an arrow. But um, you know, that to me is fun. So everybody has a little bit different threshold of what is fun to you. Fun to me is going down to Mexico on a personal tag and saying, you know, my biggest box a hundred and thirty four inches, I want to shoot a giant. You know, I want to shoot the biggest buck I can find. And I've eaten so many tags it's unbelievable. That to me is fun. Um, so you know, not to not to keep kicking the dead horse, but figure out what it is that you want out of it and then pursue it. Yeah. No, Yeah, that's totally cool man. And that's that's kind of um. While we've been pulling the audience so much and talking to some people who kind of have experience, you know, with with Elk and with Big Elk and with with cool units and stuff, because it's just not something I understand and and it's something that you really do have a great grasp of and I appreciate that. So, you know, you talked about earlier, um, guys who have been drawn on on big elk a lot, and and how uh that kind of bolsters their ability to continue to shoot more big elk because you know, it kind of takes the edge off a little bit, and that the broader version of that is just more time spent doing this is going to help you and give you a better grasp of what it takes to actually get in the back country and get it done. And that's kind of what we wanted to quiz you about a little bit. You know, you've had a lot of a lot of success through the years, and you've had a lot of experience doing things in many ways, especially in the southwestern part of the country, which is kind of a unique area. So, um, what are some of the like really common hurdles that you're gonna have to kind of get over if you are going to go to that part of the country and try to to hunt in the back country. Well, I think one of the things first stop is you're gonna have to understand and I try and explain this when I'm when I'm guiding hunters whatever hunt it may be, but in particular on elk is, it's not always gonna be like the videos. It's not always gonna be like you read in the magazine articles. There's gonna be times during the hunt when it's an absolute grind. There's gonna be times during the hunt. Now, now, how much time do you have to hunt? Do you have you set aside a certain amount of time or well, I'm employed, so since this is the you know, dream tag, I'm gonna be there the whole time and hopefully a day earlier to get in and maybe scat around a little bit. Okay, so like nine or ten days, right, Okay, so you've got the whole time to hunt. You've got to understand that there's gonna be certain circumstances, whether it be whether whether it be you know, other hunters, whether it be the elk or just not cooperating the elk or not in the right spot. You know, you could go chase him, but you could blow them out. There's it's gonna be a grind. It's not just gonna be a bugle fest all the time and just be unbelievable, although it could be. Um and I think people are like man, it's been three days and I haven't gotten a shot opportunity, So now I'm just gonna shoot anything. Well, that's fine. You absolutely have the right to just say, you know, I was going into it trying to shoot a three thirty and now shoot any bull. But I would I would urge you and urge other people that are listening, like, set your goal and set your mind to and get your mind right of I know it's gonna be tough. I know it's not always gonna be great. I know they're not always going to be just screaming and coming into the call. And I know that you're gonna get two or three four opportunities in that ten day stretch, and you've got to be able to capitalize on those opportunities. So as long as you don't look at it, it's like, you know, oh, it's gonna be a scream fest from day one to you know, day ten, that you know that, Okay, there's gonna be some grind, it's gonna get hot, it's gonna you know, you're gonna have lightning, and you're gonna have rain, and you're gonna have all kinds of stuff that it's gonna be a challenge. I mean, you guys are I take it you're not taking horses. You're gonna go in on on foot. Okay, so you're gonna go on on foot, and you know some of the challenges that you're gonna have. I think as an Elk country is the wind always has to be right or else you're gonna blow the whole gig. So part of that is, you guys are gonna have to stay clean. You're gonna have to in my mind, use like unsentded deodorant, all wash all your clothing, and uncentded laundry detergent. And you're gonna want to have a change your clothes that you're constantly being able to wash out, hang dry and try and get as much human scent off of you as you can. That's a hurdle uh in itself of when you're in the back country and you stink to high heaven. You guys are gonna have to figure out how can we shower? How can we capitalize on rain water to to do that? You know, is there stream springs, uh, you know water holes uh nearby that we can get water so that we can keep ourselves clean. But I think that's gonna be a huge part of it because, um, you know, it's the more that elk are able to smell you, the more you're gonna blow out a certain area and you're gonna have to move your camp. Um, you know. And then the challenge also, I think is, you know, after the hunt, once you get a bowl down, I mean, you guys are gonna be who knows where in the Helal wilderness and you're gonna have to carry it out. So you know, I would say, potentially have someone scheduled with horses that could come in if you shoot him a at text on the inReach device, or or if one of you has to walk out and you know, shoot him a text and say come get us, or plan on okay, how far are we going in? And if I get one in here are we are the two of us going to be able to get this elk out? Um? You know, those are some challenges. The other are are like tactics and strategies that you're going to use. Uh, you know, are you gonna plan on calling a lot Are you're gonna plan on stalking a lot? Um? You kind of have to be able to adapt to what are the elk doing? Um? You know, they're bugle and like crazy. You don't have to call much. You can just slip in there and check them out. And um, you know, so trying to trying to kind of figure your way, um in a new unit and in a new place, I would consider as a hurdle. Uh. And you know, you know, trying to figure out what gear works for you. You know, have you eaten your freeze dried meals and figured out which food sits better with your stomach? You know which you don't want to get in there and just be you know, having to run to the bushes all the time, so you know what works good for you? How much water do you need? You know? Um, you know, how do you sleep on an air mattress? Uh? You know is your rain water? Is your rain fly water tight on your kent? I mean those are all hurdles that I think you're gonna have to kind of figure out. Uh. You know, how about your feet are they going to hold up uh the entire time with the amount of weight that you're going to have to carry in? And and you know, do you have boots that work really well for you? M h. Those are all things that I think you're gonna have to think about. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So if you don't mind, let's break that down a little bit and maybe we can just ask you kind of what has worked for you in the past. And the biggest thing for me that comes to mind when I think of the Southwest is, uh, man, I've punted Western Colorado most of my life and every drainage there's water. It's not a big deal. And I think that it's going to be different where we go. So having water on hand and being able to purify water is going to be a big deal. What do you use for that situation? So, I mean, they're a lot of great water purifiers out there. I have several from different several different manufacturers. One thing I would do is, um, recommend getting it and using it, making sure that that unit works really really well. Um and you know, drinking the water out of it, making sure that your equipment, uh, you know, works perfectly. The last thing you want to do is get out there and have a water purification you know, have to purify your water, and you get there and you're like, crap, it doesn't work right, or or you get out there and be like, man, that the hose has a hole in it. Or look at this, it's right out of the package and something's wrong. So get it, use it, be comfortable with it, you know, make sure the filters clean. Uh. And and you know there's tons of great manufacturers out there, and I have I'd have to even look at the brands. I have several different ones. UM. I like the ones that obviously UM, I don't know how to explain it, but we're you would pump it more like a a bike pump, UM, rather than the ones that have the handle that you kind of crank down more like um, would it be like a like a pair of pliers. How you would crank one in down by the one where you actually push you know, you you actually hold that just screw into your an Aalgene bottle and you literally can just push like a bike pump. Uh. Those seem to work best. Uh. You know we use those in in um that the Alaska Goat Hunt. We use those, and you know I use them a lot in the Gunnison Gorge as well. And they all are different. Find the one that works best for you, and then make sure you use it and make sure that the unit that you're taking is operational. It might be a good good idea that that both of you take them. But then simple things like those saw saw your minis too. Um, just those little filters that you can always have on you, whether in your Fannie pack or in your pocket or in your pack. Um. And you know they even make them where you can just sip it like a straw. Uh. Those work as well. So are you are you carrying extra water with you when you're in dry country? Are you? You know, have you have If we've had guys that talk about dirty bags or just extra water bags that they carry with them, Yeah, so I mean you're gonna want to have those platypus bags that's you know, a dirty bag. I would label it, uh, and then have your clean water bags as well. It depends how much you guys are going to move around, you know. I don't. I haven't been in the sixteen d that wilderness, and so I haven't analyzed it and looked at it to see, you know, is their drainages with water? Are there puddles around or their stock tanks around? You know what's in there? Uh? And you know, so you guys could probably tell me. I would probably plan on hunting in an area where there's quite a bit of water, because usually where there's quite a bit of water, there's going to be quite a bit of elk on on a daily basis when you're gonna actually be going out and hunting, I wouldn't take a whole lot of water with you. I would take the ability to purify water, you know, and have analogy and bottle that you can constantly keep filling. And then you know, camp somewhere where you have good access to water, where you guys can take turns going down and making sure that you always have a good supply of water when you get back from and from a day's hunt and you know, hey, I'm gonna go down and get us a bunch of water, and you know, basically stockpile your water so that you never come back to camp and your beat. You've shot a bowl and now you've got to go get your water, have some of those you know, clean bags, Um ready to go back at camp, and then I would day hunt from there, and you know you might have to move camp though, so you know, I would go as light as possible if I was you guys, Um, I don't know what kind of clothing in that type of gear you've got you know set to wear, but you know, I would personally have tybe wearing the cool you tiber on pants. Uh, you know, definitely probably be wearing that. And then for rain gear, i'd look at, you know, the Katana rain gear or the chew Catch rain gear. Um, you know, something very very lightweight. Um, you're gonna probably get some thunderstorms and some lightning, and you know, so having some rain gear is gonna be huge because you definitely don't want to get soaked. The good news is your temperatures. Uh, you know, it's gonna be fairly warm. Um, you know, and probably even warmer than what you're used to in Colorado as well. So uh, this is kind of random question in regards to something that you said, But the Heila River actually goes through that area, and so, um, we should have some access there to water. But I guess my question is more hunting question here. Um, because you said that elk usually tend to congregate around water areas with lots of water. Um, do you know, do you do they drink out of rivers very often? Are they most of the time trying to find a still water? No? I mean I found that animals really like live water. Um, they'll they'll choose live water a lot over, they'll drink wherever whatever is convenient. Um. I don't know the HeLa River as far as it sounds like a big you know, I know where it flows into Arizona. The one thing I would caution you is make sure that the HeLa isn't like a thousand foot drop down to the water, so you've got to camp go all the way down to get your water. Yeah, and so maybe look at some of the smaller creek drainages that feed into the HeLa. Um. You know, really study Google Earth and try and figure out because what you don't want to do is you don't want to be down in the bottom of a canyon, stuck down there where every morning you've got to hike up and out of it to get to where you want to be, or where you have to hike down in the canyon and back up to your camp. Um. So you know, I would hunt. I would hunt on the map areas that have lots of water, um, but maybe possibly not a main main drainage like the Healer River drainage. Now you may be able to look at the topo map and say, oh yeah, it's it's only a you know, two foot um dropped down and back to get water. Well that's fine, but when you start talking about, you know, a thousand and twelve fifteen hundred sheet just to go get water, that's gonna wear you guys out in the heartbeat. I can definitely see that for sure, just being you know, no matter what we do, uh, we're still flat landers. So it is gonna be, you know, just something to deal with. Luckily that's not quite as high elevation is what some places are, you know, So it's not gonna be terrible. It's gonna be a lot like you know, spending some time in some of the Colorado places. But you were talking about earlier making sure you go in lot um and really in relation to camp specifically, um, you said that you thought it would be a good idea to possibly base camp and then day hunt out from there and then have the ability to move camp. So when you're doing that and say it's a situation like us where we don't have horses, we can't bring in canvas, uh, what kind of shelters are you using for that situation? So I I always used the the Couliu Mountain Star to person tent um. Now, you guys, you know, depending on how big a guys you are, you could you could absolutely just take one tent and you guys just get to know each other really really well. Yeah, you know, when I'm gone on these doll sheep hunts and mountain goat hunts and stuff, I like having my own tent, So I'm perfectly fine, you know, carrying the Kulu Mountain Star to person tent and having all of my own gear inside my tent um. So if it were me, I would probably take your own shelter. Uh. If you guys decided, you know you're gonna you know, you're gonna spoon every night, that's fine too, because you're gonna save a bunch of weight when you do that. Um, you know. And and to something you were saying that I said about in my mind, when you're actually chasing and hunting elk, you don't want to have your whole camp on your back if you can help it. So the way I would be prepping for that punt is I would be talking to as many people as I can. I would be doing as much research as I can of what are some good areas where you have multiple areas of yeah, you walcom mile this way and you're into Elk. You walcom mile this way, you're into Elk. And basically you can go in, set a base camp, go collect all your water, get your camp set up, and then just go start, you know, shotgunning and hitting these different spots. Now you spend two or three days in there and you say, well, we've seen everything in here, and or we've blown everything out and we think we need we've heard about this other area. Then you can pack up your camp, move to another location. Maybe huntle along the way. Possibly if you have to drop your backpack or something, you know, to to chase after a bull, that's one thing. Make sure you mark your backpack. But um, and then get into another area and spend two or three or four days. So I would kind of have it figured where you're not just gonna hunt as you go. You're gonna go, you're gonna set up, and then you're gonna hunt out of there until you either established that hey, what we're this is not the area we're looking for. We haven't found what we want, and now we're going to go try you know area B or Area C or Area D. Or you get to your spot that you want to go and you find out the guys just rode horses right through there and dropped off, you know, you know, six other hunters right in the exact spot. So I would plan it out where you have you know, four or five six different options within the unit, where there's handful you know of areas that you can kind of hit from a central base camp. Uh. And you know, approach it like that, even if that means packing out, going to your vehicle and driving you know, fifteen miles away over on the other side of the unit and go into a completely different spot. I would have the ability to go mobile or be as mobile as possible for sure in that situation, on that on that hunt. Yeah. So you've talked a couple of times about you know, the pack itself and and dropping your pack and this and that. What do you usually look for in a back country style pack that you're going to be overnight camping out of? So I want, you know, I'm I use the couu um Ultra seven thousand. The new pack is the the new Pro pack six thousand. They also make a seventy hundred. I want to have a pack that I can also if I'm day hunting, I can get all my gear in there, Okay, then I can shrink it down, take everything out, tighten all the straps up, and it's basically just like a you know, a day pack that's not very heavy, you know what. Being lightweight is huge, but being able to and that's what I like about the coop you pack. You know, I can take the seventy eight hundred and take all my food in there. Um, you know, use the load hauler system where you know, the bag pulls away from the frame and you can still put bags of meat inside and that kind of stuff or excuse me, between the pack frame and the bag. But on the on the other hand, where if you're just day hunting, you know, you can take a few of your essentials. Uh, you can even drop off some of the you know, the carrying pockets and stuff and shrink that bag down. So it's modularity is what I look for in that situation where you're not gonna need it. But if you kill an elk and you're a mile from camp, you don't have to go back and you know, get some other pack. You can just basically expand that out. So I like those seven thousand and up cubic inch packs myself, especially on an elk hunt. I mean, you guys are going to have your hands full if you kill one uh in there, You're gonna have multiple trips probably out to your vehicle and back. The likelihood of you guys, you know, being able to carry your whole camp and you know, split up the elk is probably unlikely. So um, you know, but definitely going with the pack that you can. You can. It's a modularity pack where you can break it down. Um, when you're just using it for a day. Pack is huge. Yeah, so a big pack like that could possibly get really heavy. Like you said, what, I think your boots are a pretty good part of the equation there as far as getting getting a lot of weight out. What what does your footwear look like? Because I know some guys in and dryer aired climates will a lot of times where like a you know, a trail runner or something like that. Um, what what are you using? Man? You know, I'm forty six now. The trail runner to me and carrying heavy weight is just it just doesn't mix at all. Um. You know, I think those cou Rebel k boots are about is good. You know, they're a technical boot, and they may be a little extreme for the amount of verticality that you'll have. Um verticality words the amount of If George said it, then it is a word. Uh, the amount of vertical It's probably a little bit of overkill because you know, there are places I've heard in there that are pretty steep, but you know, maybe not like mountain goat or or doll sheet steep. But you know, having a stiff sold boot under heavy weight I think is huge. Um. And then you know, there's a lot of good synthetic boots out there, you know, the old stand by leather. I used to wear the Sas Granite pretty much on all of those you know, backcountry sheep hunts and all those hunts where I'm gonna be out counting around. But they're so heavy, you know. These days, some of these synthetic boots, they're so light, and the amount of weight that you save on each step. You know, if if your boot is a pound and a half or two pounds lighter, that makes all the difference in the world sometimes. But I don't think the trail runner, I don't think you know, the running shoe mentality is good when you're going to be packing out a whole elk between the two of you, I would go with more of a sturdy boot, you know, I would definitely get something that's you know, in that let's call it a six to ten inch type boot um to give you a little bit more support for sure. And along with the something that just came to my mind note two, and it's kind of off that subject is make sure you guys have a real good understanding of where the trail systems are in that unit. From what I understand, there are quite a bit of trails and know where, hey, if I kill an elk here that you know, the fastest way out, the easiest way out, and sometimes it's longer, but the easier way out of carrying weight is on a trail rather than just bushwhacking across across country. Um. You know, that's where you know, I'm a big component of on X maps I and there's other great mapping um you know software out there as well. But you know, have a good map where you know where the trails to be able to get in and out of that country is. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's something that has been pretty handy is on on X not only can you put the trails on there, but it will show you the steepness or severity of the trails, so you can see you know which ones you're gonna be ganging innovation quickly and which ones are flatter and stuff like that, which is kind of handy, especially when you start plotting you know, entry and exit routes. You don't want to just kill yourself trying to get in there. And when you could, you know, take a different trail that's gonna be a lot easier for you. But yeah, and I would also take, um, you know, whether you use them or not going in, you know, a trekking pole or two or maybe two trekking poles where each one of you can each how a trekking pole once you do kill one and you know you start heading out to me, I wish I would have used trekking poles a lot earlier. Um, I think, you know, my knees are pretty good, but it seems like a year that goes by, I feel my knees a little bit more. And I think I abused them when I was younger. And and you know, even though you say, wow, I I don't need them, I would tell you if you use it as a standard practice UM on all your hunts. Of once you get weight, to use a trekking poll, it's amazing. I won't go anywhere personally without two Trekking polls. To me, it takes all of the pressure off of my knees and going uphill and downhill, especially downhill, gives me a lot more stability. So that might be something you might think about. Oh, yeah, for sure. And honestly, I just purchased them not long ago for that the summer tip that we took just to try it out. And I'll confess I am a standard uncoordinated white boy. It takes a little bit again getting used to you trying to figure out, you know, uh, when to put which pole down and that sort of thing. But it's a ton of help. Yeah, you kind of get the hang of it the more you do it, um, and it will become second nature. But I can tell you with heavyweight, uh, you know, especially sidehilling and and you know probably trying to get to to and from the trails carrying wait, it makes all the difference in the world. And I just think it takes a lot of stress off your off your body, especially your knees um and literally I I don't. They're in my pack all the time. I don't go anywhere without them, even on these summer scouting trips, you know whatever. I always have my treking tools. Yeah. So, speaking of taking stress off the pad, the sleeping pad is like a big deal for me. I have I have an old injury in my back and so, uh, I just interested in what pad you use when you do stay out in it. I used that thermarrust neal air and gosh, I don't know how big the tubes are once they're inflated, but there it's the only thing is it's a little bit um crinkly. I would say when you sleep, that would be my only right if you're a real soft sleeper. But you know, if you're working hard and you know, grinding, you're gonna fall asleep. And you know, you could probably just fall asleep brought on the you know ground with no pad, you're gonna be so tired. But you know, I've used that. I've used that neal ware on I mean lately the goat hunt, the both doll sheep hunts last summer, uh, you know, and then trips here and they're scouting for sheep and what have you. I really like it. It's super lightweight. You know. I think I like a full length pad. I'm six to uh uh, you know, like Fletch six six with the net with the afro um. You guys are probably too young to have seen that movie. Yeah, I'm six to uh and I like a full sized pad, you know, like Brady Miller over at Go Hunt. You know, he'll take this little pad that's like two ft. You know. It's like, yeahly, I don't know that I could do that. Miller is crazy. He does tennis shoes. He cuts his twoth fresh and a half. You know, yeah, different, he's he's a different breed and I keep you know, I've told him before, like hey, when you get to forty six and you're still learning tennis shoes, I'll be surprised. But you know, he is an animal for sure. But I like the full length pad. I like to get a good night sleep and I'm willing to take a little bit extra weight to have a full size sleeping pad. And I used that Neal air. What temperature bag can you get away with in Southwest during that time of year? So I sleep, uh, pretty hot? And I typically carry that to you, UM, thirty degree bag. I would think that that would be plenty because I you know, on my Northwest territories hunt and on that mountain Goat Hunt in Alaska, I took the thirty degree bag and I was perfect. I did take the fifteen degree on the chee Got, but you know there were days that it didn't get over forty five degrees. You guys will have temperatures probably lows and possibly like the high twenties, low thirties as low, and you know, you could get up to seventy eighty degrees. So I mean I would think a thirty degree bag. I mean you could even go with you know, something in that forty forty plus, uh, you know, and then just you know where where you know your marino or where you're synthetic whatever you're gonna wear on top, and you know where you're beanie and kind of layer up. So whatever system you're taking, I would definitely, you know, I just don't see the temperatures getting cold enough where you need anything below a thirty degree back. Yeah, for sure. Um, that's that's kind of what I've been looking at. You know, just you don't want to overkill. But at the same time, man, some nuts. I've been out there, especially in northwestern or northeastern Arizona, where it can be warm of the day and then it can plumbt you know, when it gets later or not. So I know that the big swing in temperature kind of what what to worry about. But for the most part, you guys will be spooning anyway. Body heat does wonder, so so when you talk about temperature, it kind of makes meat care come to mind. And yes, of course, uh, we're gonna be doing our best to get it out as quick as possible. And I got a number for a packer if we think we need them, you know, we can get them on the on the end reach or whatever. But um, either way, meat is going to have to sit for some period of time out there, So uh, if you're lucky enough to be able to let it sit overnight, I sure it can cool, you know pretty well. But do you have any tricks or tactics for for making sure that you are able to get the meat out in good shape? Yeah? I would take some string where you can hang that meat up, you know, take some small fine string, rope, twine, whatever you call it. And pick your spot where you're going to, you know, get the most shaded area you can. You've got to keep that meat in the shade. Um. Try and keep in mind, you know, where's the afternoon sun, where's the morning sun? Try and get that in an area where it's going to be covered as much out of the sun as possible. Get that meat up off the ground where air can blow through it, you know, let it blow through your game bags. And you know the reality is you're gonna have to get it out as quickly as possible. You know, I've seen things where you know, guys go hang it down right above a creek and you know they say that that cools it and what have you. You know, I just don't know that you're going to have like cool mountain streams and that kind of stuff in this country. You might, I don't know it well enough. Um, but the you know, the real thing is get the hide off of it immediately. Those help you know, you've got to roll them around, get all of the meat off, get the hide off, and get that meat hanging and then just start making as many trips as you can as quick as you can. Um. You know, I don't think there's any real You know, you're gonna have warm temperatures as it is, You're gonna have to find shadiest spot you can to hang that meat. And you know there you have to worry about bears. So you're gonna want to get it up where you know you don't come back and the bears are just all over it. Yeah for sure. Now what about um, having like adequate storage when you get back to the vehicle. Uh, that's something we haven't really thought too much about. I mean, we've got a bunch of coolers. Would you just put a bunch of dry dry ass and the coolers before you leave and just hope it's there when you get back. Yeah, I mean you could do dry ice and keep those cooler sealed. Um, you know that ken day period, you know you might have to test it. Test your cooler now before you go and see how many days try and simulate roughly the same amount of temperature that it's gonna be in in your vehicle, and see if you know, some of these coolers these days, Um, you know, whether it be Yetty or Canyon or Grizzly or whatever cooler, Um, they're pretty darn good. But the reality is more than that. I would look at, um, you know, is there someone that you could call that could be on standby that you could come bring meat to, they take it into, you know, somewhere to hang it, whether they're going to process it for you. You're gonna process your own. Uh, is there anybody I do some research and find out if there's any meat lockers or you know, coolers around where, you know, And Hey, I've got a buddy that lives in you know this town, and he said, you have if you kill it and bring it to you know this this waypoint, he'll meet up with us. He'll take that load of meet in and hang it in the cooler. So those are something to think about as well. Uh, you know the coolers in your truck, you know, ten days, that's that's a long time. So I don't have a ton of faith in the dry ice theory, and you're gonna need some big coolers as well. But you know, you can try it. I would try right now and say, okay, how long is the dry you know, is it gonna last ten days? And you may find that if you don't open it, it easily lasted ten days. And you know, therefore, if you kill all on the ninth day, you can pull it out and you know, open that cooler and throw some meat in there, and it's gonna be cooler than just sitting in a cooler with no eyes, Yeah for sure. And I think just above all the imperative things would be to get it too good eyes as quick as possible, no matter whatever you gotta do in that situation. Uh something else and cut some of those bigger chunks of meat and and you know, cut them up where you know, you don't have those real thick chunks of meat that that you know that's not cooling. Cut it into smaller pieces so you can get it, you know, cool cooled as quick as possible, Yeah for sure. And something that we kind of started out talking about this a little bit, but this is going to be, you know, a trophy hunt, right, and I hope to take a bull out that's gonna be you know, shoulder Mount Worthy. Um, it's gonna be kind of difficult to pack out the hot and the antlers and all that. So is there a specific technique you use for for doing that? Do you bring the skull out or do you do you skull cap them in the back country I would probably scull capit. If it were me, I would definitely not bring the skull. I would skull capit. And then the other thing you look at is you know you're going to have a cape and it's gonna weigh a lot, you know, thirty or forty pounds. So you may say, well, geez, I can you know elk capes are very readily available. Do you want to mount that's not your cape? That's one question. The other question is you know, maybe you go into it and say, you know, unless it's a certain size, I'm just gonna skull cap it and I'm not going to bring the cape out. Um. But the more I think about it, I really think you guys ought to have someone that is available on the end reach or on the sat phone and that will be able to come in with horses and and and get that elk out, especially if you want to mount it for for the meat sake and the cape sake. Have someone that you know, and there's got to be outfitters there and guys with horses that for a certain feet they'll come right in and grab whatever you need. Um. I would highly you know, you guys are biting off a lot um, you know, to go in there just the two of you, So I would I would definitely consider, um, you know, just skull capping it and you know, not bringing out the cape would be maybe what I would think. And buying a cape, you know, if you're you know, you're gonna have well a lot of it depends on how close you are to your vehicle. Sure, if you're two or three miles then yeah, you can get every bit of it out, no problem with a handful of trips. You know, if you get you know, six, seven, eight miles away, you're gonna it's gonna be a chore for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's a that's really the purchasing a cape is something I haven't thought about it. There is a little bit of It's like, man, are you losing like, you know, some of the mojo or something if you do that. But you know, practicality is keying in this situation, you know what's going on, like the most sense, Yeah, And I mean the key is to get the meat out first and foremost. And you know that those capes that the challenge that we all deal with in the Southwest, especially Arizona and New Mexico is the temperatures and you know, they they you know, it's stuff can spoil very very quickly, so you know, I would I would probably if it were me and I had that tag, I would have someone with horses or mules on standby ready to go when you shoot them coordinates and know that they can be there, you know, within you know, five or six hours, and have everything ready, have everything in bags, everything hung up, everything cooling so that they just come in they grab it. Uh. And you know, I think there's strings of horses and mules kind of going in and out of that unit all the time. So I would definitely make arrangements ahead of time to have someone that says, yep, you kill it, you give me the coordinates, I'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's definitely of the options for sure. And I think that I'm going to be kind of where you were saying where I'm not going to tell him yes for sure, but I've talked to a couple of people and they said, yeah, if you're pretty far back, you know, then we'll come if you think you're close enough for the truck to pack it out, no big deal kind of thing. So it's kind of nice that they give you that option. All right, Jay, So you've you've killed your big bull in the healing unit. Um and I got it packed out. You actually had to do it yourself. So you're real tired, you and your friends. Um, what are you going to sit down to a plate of to recover from all that hard, strenuous pack out? Me? I'm gonna go find a double chubby cheeseburger. Man, there's nothing like the greasy cheeseburger after leaving the mountain. I don't know what it is. You're talking to a hamburger and fry lover, So I mean, you know anything that I could find either that or Mexican food and um, yeah, you know, there's such a kick right now, and it's been going on with you know, people eating all kinds of crazy healthy stuff and that's phenomenal and they'll probably live twice as long as I will. But um, I there's nothing to me like a big old chubby cheeseburger maybe with some green chilies and a big old plate of fries, and um, you know I I the only thing that gets me by and allows me to keep hunting like I do is you know, I in Colorado for the whole summer. I try and hike every day, and I do in Arizona when I'm home, a lot of great trails around the Scottsdale Phoenix area. But I try and uh, you know, exercise as much as I can. And I eat like a pig. Yeah, Tom, and I said that all the time, Like we don't work out so that we'll be healthy. We just work out so that like we don't get super big and can still go high. You know, that's the whole thing. It's not about being healthy for it. But yeah, if I wasn't married to my wife, i'd weighs six hundred pounds. And she cooks really really good healthy meals. Now she is the opposite. She does eat like a bird. Uh and and she obviously looks like it. She does body fat. Um. But I'm I'm I'm just the blue blooded American that loves cheeseburger. So yeah, I hear you, man, I'm I'm right there with you. I would imagine that there's gonna be multiple cheeseburger and Mexican food stops on the way home from Western Mexico. So yeah, I mean, you're in the heart of Mexican food for sure. Yeah, and Uh, what's cool is it's green chili country, which you know, we love our alipinias here in Texas, but man, green chilies there. I'm not saying they're better, but man, it's a good change. They're tasty for sure. Um. Jay, we could probably ask you questions until September fourteen, but I guess, uh, it's we're kind of running kind of along here and I really appreciate your time. And I know that most of the questions we have can be answered over on your podcast. So where can we direct our listeners to listen to more of this? Oh? You know? Um, yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate you guys having me on. Uh. You know, if anybody wants to kind of follow along, making on my Instagram at Jay Scott Outdoors. Uh. And then if you're in the podcast, obviously you're listening to this one. Um, you can just type in iTunes or anywhere you find podcasts Jay Scott Outdoors, Western Big Game Hunting and Fishing podcasts or just Jay Scott podcast usually pulls it up. And yeah, guys, you guys have a great adventure um coming up, and I can tell you're super excited about it. So I'm anxious to watch, um how everything goes. And I hope you guys will send me some success photos. Uh. And I hear those bulls in the wilderness there uh can bugle good and the calling can be phenomenal. And you guys have the second hunt, which I think is better. Uh, And so I think you're gonna have some really good encounters. I think you're gonna have some good bugling. Um. You know, those New Mexico bulls are a little bit finicky compared to some of the other states, especially Arizona. Uh, so you know, if they're bugling really good, the only advice I'd give you is, you know, maybe call less and and sneak a little bit more and and you should do really really well. Yeah. That's awesome, Jay, Thanks so much for the hot fist there. Now, we can't really handle ourselves, but we're excited, man, And you're right, and I appreciate that. I appreciate the will wishes and uh, good luck to you this season too. Man. That your new endeavor sounds super cool and like kind of a dream for a lot of people to just to be able to manage their own olkre inch. So that's uh, that's pretty awesome, dude. Thanks so much for the time, Jay, We really appreciate it. Alright, buddy, when you go to shoot, shoot to kill, Okay, all right, we will, thanks man. Alright, man, that was some killer info. If you found this interview helpful, be sure and leave us review below and comment what you thought was the most helpful tip from this episode. For sure, make sure you also follow us on our social media platforms, Facebook and Instagram, and also subscribe on YouTube so you can see how these hunts turn out. Remember this is your Element Living Net. They're waiting the whole lot for that.

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