00:00:10 Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. Uh, you know you're you're you're mature when you can sit down with a game warden, I'd be real nervous. Are you not nervous? No, I'm not nervous at all. Yanny, I noticed little fidgety. He's fidgety like he's hiding something right now? Um? Eric, Yes, yeah, Eric Crawford introduced yourself, Eric Craford. We'd call you a game warden. Is that what you like to go by you? You can call me a game warden. I guess professionally referred to as a conservation officer, fish cop. That's one of the many terms and endearingly Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you would so, so give your official title, Like what's your business cards say on it? It would say regional investigator. Actually so and so of in Idaho and you have so you have a region within the state. Yeah, I work out of the Clearwater region, which is kind of central central north central Idaho. What does like a regional investigator? So you're not out driving around in a marked pick up with a gun on your whole you know. Yeah, it's not your deal. I am not. No, I more of a I guess you could say, uh, support function to the uniform officers now, UM a bit more of a technical expertise. Whether it's with search warrants, UM, writing them, are executing them, and also um electronic Um, I guess you could say evidence. So whether it's UM stuff associated with those search warrants, say cell phones and search as the cell phones and or electronic surveillance more of a passive passive type stuff. Hey, Yanni, who was real quick though? Rammy's here, Remmy Warren, how's it going? Uh, command Master Hunter, Rammy Warren. We're actually hunting with Remy right now. Taking a little break. Um, Remmy, tell them all about you got a ball today? Yeah, I shot a nice bold today. I've heard some words. I never thought Steve would say, Hey, why don't you shoot first? That's my I try to like be generous man. I don't know. Last time I felt you were like you're like step back, I'm gonna shoe. He was worried about your years. Yeah exactly. No, Actually, last time I think you used me as arrest once. Yeah, I believe that I was usually as arrest today. Ye should have? Actually, um, it was the Rammy got a bold day? That was fun? Uh? Where was everything appeared to be legal? H. We're not in your jurisdiction though, but you still like to sniff around. I still have brothers over here that I can sniff around. We actually even we even abided by rules. They don't even exist anymore. Just in case the ones that are ingrained in you cut the tag before you do anything. And even though they've changed the lingo a little bit, Montana, but did you uh had you spent time as a Oh let me ask this first? Raise your hand. You've had violations. I've had two violations, but their PFD violations the same place Open Day duck season two years in a row. I got tickets for not having a p f D. And hear me out. We were only using the canoe to put decoys in because it was so shallow. We would just wear our waiters and dragged the decoys in the canoe. Get a ticket, canoe and no life things. I'm like, but we're not even good warning, no seventy five ticket. We're like, but we're not using the like we're just and so the next year. I'm like, what the chance that happened twice? Get done? Dog on a different gentleman pulls in rights just the same day ticket. So that's my only that's not only bad violations? Now, n what kind of what all violations have you had? It wasn't really me, but I was involved in violation. I'm a little embarrassed to tell it because I'm kind of gonna throw my dad under the bus. Your dad, dad is a violator? Well, to get me hunting, Yes, dad is also honest out of state. We uh, with everybody being names honest, we had like basically added like a different dad in a different state once and it caught up to us. Oh jeez, you honest. That's a that's a residency issue. Is what we call that? A wrong class license? Which is pretty serious. Yeah, yeah, and i'd have it's a mandatory revocation. Oh is that right? Yeah? For how long? Minimum? One year? Good? Because we were just in our pre discussion we were talking about some we'll get to this, we're looking at some violations and the fines and uh, yeah, I didn't know. Were quite surprised that it seemed pretty lenient some of the fines. Yeah, if we were playing like prices right on violations, I would have guessed I would have been throwing out numbers way higher. Yeah, and some of that stuff hasn't been adjusted for inflation, right, Um, So that that's for sure. But if there's no if there's no if the if the finals the goulopment twenty years, it winds up seeming like very outdated. It would, it would. But so when you think about penalties, you know, so penalty is coming to two forms, financial or loss of privileges, and so mainly that many of the prosecutors kind of way that in their consideration of what they're gonna either pleaded out or try to get for a penalty. So I mean, sometimes money doesn't mean anything to anybody, but losing privileges does. So privileges anymore are far reaching because of this thing called the Wildlife Violator Compact, which you explain that see we're getting backlogged and things you need to explain. But since run that explain next, that's good stuff. Man. So there's I believe it's up to forty two states now, is it really? Yeah? I remember it was just like the West and Pennsylvania or something like. Yeah, yeah, but now there's there's forty two states. I believe it's up to forty two. Um, and so if you're revoked in one of those states, you're revoked in all those other states. Can I go out on a limb, out on a limb and say that Texas is not one of the forty two I don't. I don't know which which aren't. They're getting there though, I can just picture and being like, not on that list. Yea, we need a fact checker. See which my friend Doug Durn's real good at him? He's not here right now? Are already check? Yeah? I could. I can think of a handful of digital radio programs that could use a staff fact checker. Um, you look that up right of me, Remy's on it. Your report back to us, Remy, So it isn't. Doesn't Wisconsin dear season open like shortly? You know? Yeah? My friends Wisconsin are always shocked when I don't when I have to double check about when it opens. But it's like some Saturday that could be this Saturday. So uh so, yeah, you lose your privileges of one state, and you lose them in forty two states. Yeah, and that that started in the West right did. Yeah, Idaho it was one of the original members of the compact. And so you can understand why it started in the West, because who comes to hunt the West a lot of the times, you know, easterns exactly. And so if they just they just bump out into the next state. Yeah, if they just get go back to their eastern state, and we're like, who cares? You know, I'm revoked in Idaho, alorade on my home state. Yeah, now now it's far reaching. Yeah, so let me back up to somethings. I wanted to get some clarity out, sketch off me real quickly, like, like, how how you became what you are? So you went you studied what in school? So yeah? So I uh um, so I have an associates and environmental studies and bachelor's and fisheries. So I grew up back east. I went to college and upstate New York first int and then back to Pennsylvania to a state school. And then when I was completing my uh my senior year and my bachelor's, um, I had to I was in the senior seminar class and I had to look for jobs. You know, you learned to write a resume and all that, and then the focus of the class is looking for jobs pretty much and writing resumes. And so I had already spent a summer in southeast Alaska on an internship, and so I knew, I knew I wanted to come back west, even though Alaska is a little bit different than Idaho. But I learned pretty quick that after our stint in Alaska, it wouldn't be nearly as fun going back, just because of what we were doing and all the things we got to do. And so it just happened to apply for a job in Idaho and came out and worked as a fishery seasonal for two years. Yeah yeah, and then uh, and then a wildlife seasonal for two more. So many guys I know that wound up doing fishing wildlife work would do those seasonal star yeah. And that's what like signing on the research programs, yea, And that's what That's what pretty much everybody does. That's pretty much your foot in the door. That it's not how it works, it just you know, you need to gain experience somehow. And so you know, I worked back east in New York State for as a fisheries technician first a season and then went to Alaska and then came to Idaho, and so I had a little bit of a resume building, and so it just built here. And quite honestly, when I when I got to Idaho, I had no intentions to being a game warden whatsoever. And so I one of the seasons I worked in wildlife, I was trapping bears, black bears, um for research. We're using Aldrich snares to do it. And so one of the game wardens came out to work with me, and I've known him for a couple of years, trapping bears out in the woods, trapping bear? Is it out in the middle, out in the middle of it? What kind of snares? Yeah, yeah, foot snare yeah. And so one of the game wardens came out and was helping me, and and so he had had a master's scree. So the unwritten rule in the agency is that you have to have a masters as a minimum to be a biologist. You know, there certainly are other avenues to do that, and so um, he had a masters and I couldn't understand why I was in game warden. And so here we are sitting on a river eating lunch and he and he it was yeah, he just like, listen, what we're out here, where's your supervisor in the office. You know, we're out doing the fun stuff. And light came on. I was like, yeah, heck, yeah, yeah, I should probably be a game warden. And the kind of you know, that was sixteen years ago. So yeah, just because of that little lunch on the river with the game warden wash it was it was so, did you for a while become a game warden? What do you call the verse? Like a what do you call a warden? New is just out in his patrol vehicle, checking license, just a regular So it would be, uh, you start out in Idaho as a conservation officer when you first come on, and you're in that position for about a year, and then you jump up to a senior conservation officer and so that would be the actual, uh uniform function, the patrol function where you have a patrol area and this is kind of a and you did that for a while. Yeah, for the vast majority of my career. UM I worked as an investigator for almost five years in another region and then came back to investigations just a few years ago. But the vast majority of my time was in uniform, and so I've had the pleasure of working all around the state so far. But the the interesting thing in Idaho, Um, there's only seventy seven uniform officers and so on. Average uniform guy has eleven square miles to patrol in the state Idaho, so bigger, you know, yeah, huge and eastern standards. Have you ever figured out the ratio of hunters per per per square miles? No hunters per war so yeah, I'm not sure how many. I think we don't even know how many hunting licenses first per yeah, which oh yeah, the states Texas gets a little redemption because of a Delaware, Hawaiian, Massachusetts, Nebraska, and New Jersey not on the list. Yeah, those are the ones that aren't on there. And it looks like most of them, except for Nebraska and maybe New Jersey, are in the process of changing. Huh. There you go. Um, so now you're gonna work on how many lights? Yeah? The ratio of hunters per officers. Now, someone was recently saying, to be honest, he's a conservation officer, was saying, to be honest, right, He's like, I don't need to go out in the field anymore. I got Facebook. Yeah, it certainly can be a tool. And it's kind of funny because the the younger officers, I mean, they like being on there. I don't have the patience for it. But it's we've gotten to a society that, you know, likes to promote themselves, and some of society isn't necessarily as smart as they should be with what they promote, you know, and UM in a way, in the sixteen years that I've been a CEO, things have changed drastically in those sixteen years of UM people's motivations and whatnot to to violate and some of its self promotion. And I want to be want to be known. That's what those boys said down in um oh not in Kentucky. Where do we cross the river? And went into? Was what state do we go into? Was it Ohio? No? Should Rember in Kentucky? I thought we'd call swamp route. We were still in Kentucky. Anyways. They were with wardens that worked both sides of the river. But yeah, I was like they kept talking about these rings and like these guys were they were drug eithers, right, Yeah, and they bust up this poaching ring and I'm trying to think like, why is there a poaching ring? And finally, so I asked like, well, why are they a poaching He's like, oh, just so they can brag. Yeah, And sometimes you see, you know, as far as a poaching ring, I mean, I haven't been exposed to a ring, but you'll definitely see. You know, there's value in wildlife, whether it's in the sale of the meat or the sale of the antlers. I mean, antlers are worth a lot of money either if you're selling them by poundage. Do you ever catch anyone who's selling meat? Uh? We have knowledge of people that are selling meat. Yeah, yeah, into what like how they're going about it? So um advertising on craigs List. Oh no, ship really sometimes And I thought you saying at one time went to this dinner. I went to this dinner one time down and it was in Charlotte, North Carolina. Is that kind of like a like a not a hippie dippie town, but like kind of like a cool little town. Oh it's a giant city of the South. I was in some cool little town in North Carolina. Yes, that's it. Who said that? You google cool little town in North Carolina? So yeah, I was there and I go to this thing. This guy's having his wild game dinner and I'm already smelling a fish because he's selling tickets to it. So he's charging seventy five dollars a plate to have a wild game dinner. And you come in there and he said, I had kind of been in on this from the ground, like you can't do that, Like I know people do it for fundraisers. So this guy it comes out and says, oh, we're doing it as a fundraiser for the trc P. So I quickly called t rc P and I'm like, hey, man, tell me when the donation comes in from it never came in. But here's what kind of messed it up too, is the dude serves one of the dishes and he said, oh, it's alligator snapper from such and such river, and you know, as you know, there's you know, you're not there's not a harvest on alligator snappers out there right now. And I later learned he was way off. There are no alligator snappers in that river. So no, I don't know if the whole thing was just a sham. Do. I mean, like he's just selling whatever and acting like it's yeah, And we don't. Would you mean you don't see somebody that that is that? Yeah, that is that out out there. What we see kind of nowadays is pretty much the sale antlers or the sales meat, but it's mainly associated with with drugs, say meth. You know somebody that's a meth user. It's easy to get antlers, it's easy to get um trying to raise mo Yeah, somebody that's an addict, you know. For example, So a couple of years ago, I get a call. It's January. It was like a January tenth or so, get a call from the local dispatch. Um, I guess we got it from our Citizens Against Poaching hotline that this person was calling in to report a guy was going out to help his buddy um retrieve a moose. Now, moose season had been closed for for months January tenth. There's no big game season other than lying open at that time of the year. And so lo and behold, we go out there in the middle of the night and actually contact these two guys. And so the interesting thing was that the guy that was doing the shooting, he had an appearance two days from then for possession of meth. Oh really yeah, And so those are the kind of people that you deal with, you know. He wanted he thought he's gonna sell the hit. I don't know what he was thinking, you know, but it was probably Yeah, and he they didn't have a moose, they didn't harvest the moose. Um they had shot it deer. I mean, it was very apparent you could throw snow in the ground, and so you could. They had spotlights and yeah, it was he uh, you know, he was hitting up on the hill when we got there, and it's pitched dark, so it's a little bit of a safety issue, you know. And so he ended up coming out and then uh ended up finding his backpack, backtracking him in the snow and finding his backpack and then going through it. He had this uh fairly family hairloom twenty two with a contractors laser electrical tape to the barrel. Dude, that's a good idea. Yeah, But then here was the getter. So and then he had a knife and it was it was lock blade. So he opened it up and on it says poacher and there's a whole bunch of hashtags on it. No ship. Yeah, and he claims that somebody gave it to him. But that that kind of explains the mind of people, you know that. I mean, it's the things that we see as officers or game wardens. Are a lot of people you couldn't even dream it up, you know. But what's the what's the most common what's the most common violation? So generally, as a patrol guy, it would be like fishing without a license. You know, somebody's just gonna go fish and you know, take their chance. You're just gonna write there ticket all day long. Yeah, all day long. What's the most common hunting related violation? Uh, probably evidence of sex, you know, and sometimes you gotta do you know. So you know, as a uniform guy, you're looking for compliance. Right. It's a great day when everybody is compliant, you know, and then you want to balance that with deterrence, right, So you got to present this tarade that you're everywhere all the time, you know, to to so people don't violate because they're afraid they're gonna get caught, right, But if they know they're not going to get caught, then there's no motivation to not violate. That's what that's Elder Leopold's famous line is ethics. You know you're hunting ethics are what you do when you know you won't be called and so yeah, a term that I use anymore. Our situational ethics, you know, and so um, each situation dictates at the ethics. And so during the course of my career, you see different ethics depending on which part of the state you might work in. You know, we had a uh, the Citizens Against Poaching program have a bunch of trailers with a bunch of seized um heads in them. Tax there mad you know, and stories related to it. And so we were running one of those trailers in a in a small rural town and this very nice older gentleman came up and was thanking us for the job that we did, and um, so on and so forth. But then he stopped and said, I don't care how how hard you boys work. It's just a way of life here. That's what we do as poach. You know. It's just like it kind of takes the wind out of your sales. You're like, hey, thanks for being so appreciative, but thanks for telling us that we're not having a we're not being you know, deterring your your behavior. And it's just kind of how it how it rolls, you know, and so you just got to balance at deterrence and compliance. You know, like, for example, I'm a field training officer, so I get to train newer CEOs and so, you know, you might have a close season elk for instance, and solve the case. So you collect some kind of firearms evidence, ballistics evidence and link it all up and the whole cases is solved. You know who your suspect is, they get prosecuted. But the thing that I related to a young officer is we might have caught the bad guy, but that elk is still dead. Yeah, it's not walking around anymore, you know. And that's what you know, hopefully, that's what you want to do, is having much of a terrence factor so that stuff doesn't happen. My older brother, um, he's half probably like my my father had a son long you know, he was a grown man by the time I was born. Um. He was a game ward in Colorado and he once worked a case where a guy was colvert trapping black bears but then selling them to clients. Jeez, but what do you do is he opened the door on the colvert and the client and shoot the bear when it come out of the thing, and he had all these pictures he showed me where he stakes it out with the camera where the guys releasing the bear and the guy opens the colvert and the bear runs out the guy. The shooter misses the bear, so the bear just gets away, but he goes and takes the guy to court and presents it. And only he got the guy on with something because the guy never killed the bear. It was like some dischargeing a firearm or yeah, and sometimes there was no dead animal. Yeah and no, no, it was the guy got a legal transport of wildlife. Oh the guy that was trap and so yeah, some of that. You know, you gotta look at the code. You know, that's what we enforces um Idaho code. It's specifically Title thirty six. And so as an officer, you have to really learn the definitions. So um, you know, the definition of like take is all encompassing. You know, it's uh any attempt to do so you know, it's pretty much how it sums it up, you know, the pursuit actually hunting. It's it's very broad. And so knowing that you understand, you get a better understanding how you need to react to a certain situation in the field, like when you see Interregg's attempt to take, yeah, attempt to take Yeah. No, so you don't have to actually kill something, yeah, exactly when you're trying to do it when uh so, not leaving evidence of sex on a quartered out animal is a very common violation. Yeah, it is. And a lot of times it's just somebody gets carried away and drops the necessary items off, you know, when they're skinning it or quartering it. And so it's just one of those things you can use it as an educational tool. Yeah, what's another What are the more common ones? Is want and waste common or not common? It's not so common. Um so you see good compliance, sir, you do, you do, you do, And it's kind of interesting. So in that same little rural town, you know, you try to make in roads. You know, the success of a of a uniform guy really relies on um their relationships. Right, So if they appreciate, at least in my experience, if they appreciate you beyond just being the game warden. You know, if you if if they see that you're treating everybody the same, you know, then they're going to give you a little bit more respect. And so but for whatever reason, and in those rural towns they're like, hey, you know, people gotta eat. As long as they're not wasting it, it's none of my business, you know, And it's you know, it's like, well, listen, you know that might have been the case back in the depression years, but there's lots of programs anymore where you know, you can get meat to fill your freezer, you know, other than poaching the state's wildlife, you know, And it's I mean, in the end, it's it's all of our wildlife, right, you know, whether you're a licensed buyer or not, or appreciate wildlife in general. And so that's kind of the sad thing to you know, you can't break it, get over that hump with them. You know. It's just like it's more than like if someone's using it needs it. It's I think people would argue that it's in the rules. Man. Do you does Idaho have the deal where shooting trophy animals is way worse than Yeah, they're they're they're associated with trophy penalties. So break that down for people. So in Idaho there's a general civil penalty, and so I believe and I can't rattle off to the actual numbers. But I think it's a like for an elk, it would be just generally elk, it would be a seven or fifty dollar civil penalty. Okay, that's what's assessed. I think that's right on a fact checks. Go, yeah, I got it that we got for the for the game warrings, the closer I can finally just broken down by a number of people, California is the worst, uh for game wardens per hunter. Yeah, it's um d eighty five thousands, and then Montana had In contrast, Montana has about undred, and Wyoming is hundred. Alaska has one for every Yeah about those and that's just that's just population that's not actual. Then you can you can kind of draw some conclusions from there. Yeah, so of the population hall but then a California has one of the lowest participation rates exactly, so one New Jersey California. So we're we're oh, yeah, so shooting big critters compared little critters. Yeah, and so then it it jumps up. Okay, so, uh, like a trophy, what would it be a trophy which is bounces off of the Boone and Crockett definition of trophy, it would be what the minimum is for antler size UM, with the exception of any sheep, any mountain goat, any moose, um, any caribou, mountain caribou. They those have specific there's no trophy associated with it, just straight up um ten dollar trophy five yeah, yeah, yep. And so so what okay? Why that? Why is it seven and sixty for an elk and ten thousand for a mountain goat? So that would be just for so if they take um and I should have the numbers in front of me, I don't want to miss quote them. But so a uh so like a cow ow close season, it would be seven fifty al right, that would be the civil penalty. But if it was a bull elk and it was trophy, I think it jumps up to two thousand and so those are those inflation numbers, right, They may not have been they haven't been adjusted forever, you know, but but it is. It is trying to send a message, is trying to differentiate the pot hunter but from the guy who's the swinging, dick bragging hunter. Well, I think it just I don't think that's really the necessarily intention of it. You know, It's just I think that society or hunters value trophy animals more, you know, and so there's just more value placed on those individual animals as compared to a cow, elk or a dome ule, deerra white house. So you don't think it's a way to like be leaning on people who are shooting portion for meat. No, No, not at all. It's just the value system, the value of the animals to the state. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And so you know, and all of that is you know, it's ida whole law, and so it's it's enacted by the legislature of the state and so which you know, do as the people want theoretically, and so that's how those things come about. Do you feel that, um, And I don't want to put you in any kind of situation where you're, you know, where you're saying stuff you should say, or you know, we're walking to five a line. But do you feel that people in enforcement such as yourself, do they generally feel that, man, we should be um having steeper penalties or should this you know, I can't believe this guy got off with this amount of money or do you generally feel like that the punishment fits the crime? So I think generally you don't even have to break it down in into terms of enforcement personnel or somebody else, you know. I mean, even you just a second and said, man, why why is it so low? You know, yeah, I mean so I think the general public would would think, you know, depending on how egregious the crime is. And you see it all the time, you know, on the internet anymore, that people are are very hyped up when there's good penalties. I mean you'll see it. It'll it'll hit the internet and it's great and people are happy with that, and you know, or if it's a bad penalty, I mean you'll see that on the internet, you know, in social media that man, why didn't you get more of a fine or more of a revocation? And so, you know, it's it's as much of a It's kind of interesting because here we are as as sportsman, and we we do our part in conservation, but there's one more staff and that's you know, we always talk about biology as a course of conservation, but rarely do we talk about enforcement, you know, And so that's more of a way for the public to get involved as enforcement, not only reporting violations, but taking note to these penalties that are assessed and even you know, doing what ever to enhance the penalties. Yeah, you need telling about the violation we reported the other night. M M. It's a long story. We just have to be hunting near a populated area, but you just happen to have national forests, like, you know, right behind folks houses. And uh, Steve had never been in that situation, so he's a little uneasy about it. I'm like, yeah, but it's like it's fine, Like we're following the rules, like it's all good, you know. It's like, yeah, as long as you're not killed elk there, killed elk there, killed elk there. There's a sign where on national forest. Yeah, as long as you don't like shoot at the elk when the houses are you know, on the other side of the elk. Yeah, being like national forest, but you're perched up above like a small town. And I also said, I said, there's some locals running around here that no matter what, how would it kind of mistake we could possibly make. They've already done it and probably done in tenfold and not what ten gooifteen minutes later we hear shots ring out and we're like ship that's closed. Were like, I'm thinking about hitting the dirt. Yeah, and we finally find shots, find the origin of these shots, and we see a dude running like we couldn't really see where he was taking the shots from, but we see him running down the road back to his truck. No orange John, No running down the road with the right cars blowing past. Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, throws his rifle in the truck, put his orange on. In Colorado, you have to have a hat on. Doesn't put a hat on, then grab his rifle and more AMMO and continues to go up the hill. But we don't know if he was He might have been from the center line, which is yeah. But then he finagles is way back down to the road, touches off six more rounds to make a total of ten rounds. And then the next time I shined my look like a my binoculars down there, he's been visited by police officer. Yeah, And it's it's amazing how people just lose their mind over over wildlife. I mean, it's just it's kind of startling that that they they would do that. You know. It's like I have a little respect for for the wildlife and fair chase for that matter, you know. And I mean I don't understand it. Do you know? Have you read or heard of a UM prominent conservationist and author named Jim Postil. It's by chance I had occasion to interview him for a movie project. A film project will inherit the Hunt right beyond Fair Chase, Yeah, which is that's a staple and hunter education now UM interviewed him for a documentary we're doing? What do you guys going on over there? Remy? I was just checking things, but I couldn't find the fines or any of that. But there is a regulation book sitting right there somewhere if you see it, just on the check anything do because I know you've been busy and you've been doing a great job. But is there anything you need to add at this point? Well, I think with some of the violations, you know, the fines even like say these trophy areas or whatever, I would think, why don't they just open it up to an auction. See how much someone would pay for that tag? Because I know it's quite a bit more than they're paying for the fines for the charge that so they double so somebody gets a tag next year for that to do the shot has to pay that. Yeah, they dude, they got that gigantic buck off that winter range arian Wyoming. Yeah, that's a hundred thollar bucked. Right, Why don't why don't we let the market decide what that guy's finest auction off one tag? And that's the thing. I mean, you think about how valuable wildlife is anymore, and I mean that's how that's how civil penalty should be assessed, you know, as what you know, granted, more people, some people have more money than others, but I mean market value of yeah, yeah, exactly, because it's a lot more than three thousand or two thousand all what I mean. You know, in some of these places, people are paying ten times that to go shoot something like that? Can hear? Somebody stole it from a guy that could have drawn that tag on his own, and now you know he's taking from everyone and it's not it doesn't seem like the return is the same as especially if it's something that was intentional and he's set out that day to go make that violation. Yeah, that's nothing I want to ask you about. But let's make this gym possible this point real quick. Um. He said something to me when I was talking to him that it's really really uh stuck with me. We're talking about like unethical hunting practices, but I think it's appropriate for poaching too. He's like, why why it's so offensive? As he was explaining, is is that we've created like the symbol of American wildlife. Okay, So an elk, for instance, has its value because of this system we've created around it where it's like this wild animal that takes a skill set and effort to go get Okay, it's elusive, it's hard. You have a lot of areas where success rates are ten or right, So the elk value was created by a monitored system of wildlife management. Okay, it's there's an exclusivity to the animal, right. Yeah. And when you when you cut corners to get it, what you're chasing after is the value that was created by the legitimacy of the pursuit. And you just want like you want the symbolism and you're cashing in on the value of something, but you're doing it in a way that like completely disrespects where the value came from, Like a shooting a gigantic bowl. It's like buying it's like buying a uh a fancy watch in downtown Manhattan. But you're only paying bucks for it, you know what I'm saying. You kind of like, no, there's this company, Rolex. It makes you so when people see that, they think, oh, this is a man of mean with taste and class. Yeah, but I just bought it for twenty bucks. And then here I am, and now people are gonna think the same way about me. Yeah, and here I have a two mule deer on my wall. And man, that's a heck of a mule deer, you know. And that's the story behind cashing in on all the glory created by all the dudes out there pounding the ground. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And I got it, and it's yeah, and it's a great point that jim makes, you know. And I mean we've we've done it to ourselves in society, you know. It's just that the value has gone up and up and up, you know, Jimmy and the else a remy right now, that's it. But I'll jump in when I uh, you were you were just talking. And remember you made a point about especially when you've got malicious intent, like like clearly you like you did like accidentally poach. Yeah, I've seen well I have a newspaper clipping in in a cookbook that I have at home that's got the picture of a dead lama in the back of a truck, and this guy legitimately thought that it was an elk, you know. And it's like, I mean, that's just plain stupid. But then I've been around here before and seeing people driving into a check station or whatever, going oh, look at this white tail I shot and it's a bifurcated four by four in mule here You're going, oh my god, it's and so I mean nothing. I think there's like a non malicious intent, a true accident, and then just plain stupid and plain stupids up with malicious intent but not as much as an accident. Yeah there there. There was this old game wording that I I used to work work with and he since retired, but you know, he sease the old comparison. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's a duck. And so but he would replace duck with poacher, you know, And and so it's it. It's a very broad statement, but once you do, once you're a game word or ceo for long enough, you kind of figure it out. There are those people that make honest mistakes, and so you have to you know, handle those situations as an educational opportunity. And then there's others that are premeditated and malicious about it and and so. But it's a it's a fine line that you walk trying to decide on, you know, but you do you do practice leniency? Oh yeah, absolutely if you know the mistake was made. Oh yeah, absolutely. You you'd sent me a thing where a guy you'd sent me a thing where you were observing some fishermen. Didn't you send this to me? Someone said this to me. I thought were like early communicating about you coming out, and he said me a think where a guy had um where a fisherman had like costs and fish and had him on a stringer. Then act that was probably in the magazine. Yeah, had a video. It was a magazine article. Yeah, it was an article, you said, Yeah, a copy of the Idaho a Warden magazine. But a guy like a Warden observes of dude catching fish he wasn't allowed to have probably gross over limits string and then when the warden goes down, um, he's like catching No, Well, what's that string out there, and then the guy would wait around act like he couldn't find it, and they'd all got in a way, yeah, letting him off. Yeah, and then the warden went out and probably found the stringer right where he thought it was. So there you got a guy he's like just outright bullshit, absolute intent, yeah, which would which would kind of like almost make it like personal. Yeah, but you can't. So that that's another thing that you know, for young officers to understand that it's not it's not personal. You know, um, yeah, you wear this uniform today, but and it probably is in a front to to the uniform, you know, like hey, I'm gonna get one over on the game warden, you know, but they don't look at the name tag. You know, it's you're you're the guy in the green in the gray. I mean, that's what our uniforms are in Idaho. And so it's the guy or the gal in the green in the gray. I'm gonna get one over on the union, on the the game warden. And that's all it is. You know, at night, you can't go home taking everything personal. I mean, it would drive you crazy, you know. You know, it's just not a good way to conduct business, because then you just get yeah, I mean they're still hunters, they're still fishermen, they're still licensed buyers. There are great hunters and fishermen out there, you know, in in reality almost upwards. If it's ly close to the contacts said that we as CEO is make don't involve violation. It's just a regular compliance contact, which is is great. You know, it's what whether it's a fisherman or you go into a camp during the fall, I mean, there's no violations. Everybody's compliant. I mean it. And do you even push it further if you've built the relationship with those people and then you look how to look forward to seeing them? Oh yeah, look folks from such and such a back camp down at that same spot. Oh man, they got a new wall tent this year. So so you you find you find yourself rooting for the people, Like you pull up, You're not like, man, I hope they have a violation. Yeah, absolutely not. But with that being said, when you get out of the truck, you're like, is there a violation? You're not like, man, I hope I get to write a ticket. Absolutely not. And if that's how you're doing. If that's how you're doing your job, you know that, oh I want to I want to write a ticket, then that's a poor way of doing the job. If you get out of the truck and say my job is for compliance and and if there's a violation, I'm gonna find it without a DOLLA. But you don't like hope, man, I hope this next camp has a violation. Hope I get a ticket. Yeah, that's not that's not how we operate. So what about people who come Let's just say a hypothetical that you like. Hypothetical. Okay, just so that I've seen half, I know what happens. You shoot a deer and you go there, there's two deer landers. Did you know there's one behind the deer. Okay, guy comes to you and says, calls up, I got a problem. Here's what happened. Do you? Is that different to you? Let's say, okay, let's say this happens to two guys. Both we just know because of omniscient knowledge, we know that both were accidental. One comes and tells you about it. Now they're both accidental. One guy homes and tells you about it. When you find out about do you view those two situations differently? Absolutely? So, yeah, it happens a lot. And we have this discussion with with people that violate, and as you know, you can make a poor action worse by the way you respond to it, you know, and so um, you can dig yourself a much deeper hole. And if you would just be honest and come forward right away, that hole would not have gotten dug at all. Right, And so that guy that reported that accidental kill, Yeah, there's ways of handle in that. And it doesn't always involve a violation or writing a citations. But the guy that leaves the other one on the hill and then just denies he shot it, until you dig a bullet out and be like, yeah, this this to seventy lead you know, when what are you shooting two seventy You don't, well, no, it couldn't have in me. Was there anybody else here with you? No? No, well let's line up the shot here. And yeah, that's how they handle the situation. And you can make matters a lot worse, you know, And a lot of times that you see that, you know, so you would say like and not just doing your job, but it being a just just being a guy you would say that it's better to call up and go I have a problem. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And we see it all the time. A few times that we had to call and we would call in when we had a violation. Some you know, you'd leave a client. I was a guide in Colorado. We'd leave a client and uh, the guy shoot him, youle dear dough once thought it was a you know, small small cow elk and uh that I kept trying to think what the other one was. But but twice basically the war came up and uh, look the whole situation over and was like, all right, pay for the processing, donate to meat, you keep keep you talk, keep hunting. Yeah, like it was individual. You know, there's a there's kind of this this unwritten playbook. I guess you could say how to handle those situations, you know, and a lot of times that that's what you see an officer will do, is you know, or say that say that they do shoot the elk um, they say they shoot a bull, but it passed through kills a cow case and now you have a cow on the hill. And so rather than uh, you know, leaving that on there, they leaving it on the hill, They call and report it. You go up and be like, okay, well you guys need to pack that thing down to my truck and we're gonna take to the food bank. That's back to that whole thing, that there's opportunities for people to get game meat other than going out and poaching it, and so, you know, and and paying for the processing you know, um, and so that those are the way you kind of handle those things. And it's a good way. I mean, it's a good way for everybody. You know. Actually, they would always give us a choice. It was like that or lose your license and you next year, Like yeah, I don't you know, yeah we we, I don't. We don't give choices. It's a you know, because then it's almost like extortion in a way, like hey, you know, you hold faster your decision. No, this is what I've done fifty other times. This is what I do how I handle the situation. So does the bulk of your the bulk of your more high profiles not the word I'm looking for, um, but serious offenses. Okay, serious, I'm moving away from accidents now. Okay, So if you look at you know, over the last few years or whatever, and you look at the bulk of your what you'd call poaching cases, like intentional malicious intent poaching cases. Do most of those cases originate from tip lines or do they originate from just field work and having officers on the ground. Yeah, so that's a that's a rate question, Steve, because we in Idaho, UM, I think it was. We had a study done on our law enforcement program done by the University of Idaho, and that was actually UM kind of one of the questions I got teased out of how do you report violations? And so very few of the violations come from the cap line. Most of them come from UM contact with an individual officer because people aren't using the lines, but they don't know how, they don't know how to use them effectively. I mean, the the cap line gets a pile of calls, but when you you start teasing it out and you're like, well, jeez, this this isn't a this isn't a violet. You know, it's not a violation. You know, like, oh, I've I see five dumped carcasses. Well, it's because somebody was too lazy to take it to the dump and they wanted to they didn't want to put it in their garbage can because pickup wasn't until you know Tuesday, and today's Monday or you know, Wednesday of the previous week. So you know, they don't want it sticking up, and so they just take it and dump it something or to hear a shot. They hear shot somebody hunting season exactly, and so there's you know, that's kind of where it all balances. So the tipline gets inundated with calls, but not a lot of like real workable stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it does get workable stuff. And they're very very they're a great tool. And I would encourage anybody that witnesses a violation to call it. You know, in Idaho and I'm sure in most western states and they there's a reward for reporting violations and that are successfully. In Utah, they've got a deal where if you report a violation and it's convicted in a trophy unit, you receive a tag the next year. I don't think there's anybody Henry's and just start lasting for violators, because I would catch a violator probably quicker than night every draw tag. You're kidding me, No, that's a cool that's a great way to get a take because like the money thing just seems kind of biggest. But it's like, if I could have a tag here next year, well plus we could do something. We get a guy that doesn't hunt anyway, send him in there to commit a crime, but see glass him up, turn him in, he takes the fall, and we get a sweet tag. Don't see you take he gets the fall, You get the tag. Then I report the conspiracy. The dominoes are beginning to fall. That's a great that's a great idea. Man. I wonder if they've given out any tags yet. I don't know so, but a lot of those steve they It comes down to again, it comes back to those relationships. It's so important as a field officer to But let me back here, because you were saying, so you were comparing tipline to what to individual officer relationships and reports directly to officers. Okay, if I met officers just sniffing stuff out now reported, so people will all their officers. We still I mean as far as reports, Yeah, there's far more that come that are successfully prosecuted through officer contact than there is. So people being familiar with their officer, calling their officer directly and saying, hey, here's what's up. Yeah, yeah, it's I've like watched a few people poaching before and breaking numerous violations and called the tipline and it's just like nothing happened. Then they came back the next weekend did the same exact thing, and I just called the local officer and within matter of you know, an hour, the I was completely yeah, you've been charged and everything. Why do you think that? Is? I the so this time of the year that the tip lines are inundated with calls, and again they don't a lot of them don't add up, and then um, there are a lot of them are call centers, and so you're not getting all the information. And but it's just like I said, it's just having that positive relationship in your communities and then people just know that, you know, you're going to treat treat those the next person the same way, you know, and so they're more willing to give you good information with reportable violations that are prosecutable. Now, what was the uh, what's been the worst like poaching case You've worked so over sixteen years. Of course there's been all kinds. It just runs the gamut. And and so it's kind of say, like what the worst is, you know, like memorable, memorable, interesting, worst, like just a handful. I mean every year it gets more memorable. You know. It's like we're looking at those uh, those decoy videos. I mean, yeah, they're pretty they're egregious violations, and they're you know, I think that most people would be appalled when they watch them. You know, so uh, showing us before we came out and showing us videos of a essays, Yeah, artificially simulated animals. Yeah. So basically, uh, when you got some people, you know, we're up to know good, you put out like a fake dear elk and then just see what happens when they drive by. Yeah, and this thing doesn't look like a target. This thing looks like it's a good full taxidermy. Yeah. Yeah, which is in that public opinion survey that we did, um that is ranked as one of the lowest acceptable forms of enforcement that we use by the public. They think it's entrapment. No, they don't think it's entrapment. They just don't like to be duped. They don't like to be tricked, is how it goes. Yeah, Yeah, but I think they had three It had a handful of cases that it's it's it's it's on YouTube, right game. Yeah, Um, so they got it there. They put one out at night on a road and this some bitch knew what he was doing because this dude rolls up and it's instantly out of the truck shooting like he knew it. He was like night hunt. Yeah, because there's no way you'd have he didn't take enough time to like assess the situation look around for his gun. Yeah. This guy like piled out of the passengers side and black. A lot of those guys that we get in no situations, they got sneakers on, like there's no way they're getting out of the truck that day. They have no intention, they have no intention to getting out of the truck that day. They're just gonna go road hunt all day, you know. And another one, some people roll up on a s A that's a cowelt and the shooter is just riding around in the back of the truck with shorts but already in the back of the truck like ready to roll get some cracks off. But her her, the driver, her man or whoever it was, he had a good cow call coming out of called out of the running out of the truck. Another guy. It was like some a party that was shooting a lot of white tails out of a boat. Officers said, can't be shooting that white tails out of the boat. Next year, they put one out on the edge of the lake they like to hunt out of their boat. They pull up, what rip off fourteen shots at it? Yeah, in a minute thirty seconds seconds. Yeah, out of two bolt action rifles, which I mean, that's a lot of reloading going on. The one with the lady in the back of the truck shooting kind of maybe me think, like I've seen, you know, a handful of wildlife violations that I've reported, and a lot of them had family there, like there was kids, there was and it's almost like they're just raised Like when I teach someone how to hunt, like you know, ethics and this and that goes into it, and it's like they're just doing the exact opposite in poaching, Like do you see that a lot where it's almost a generational thing like that's how we hunt, that's how they learned. And so yeah, it comes back to that situational ethics at me and so in some in a lot of these communities that we work. I mean, they're very rural and so you as the officer or one of the lead hunter ed hunter education instructors and so you know all these kids and then shoot a couple of years later, here they do. They come rolling up blasting the decoy, you know, and it's just like, hey, weren't you Were you in my hunter ed class? You know, and it's just like what what where do we go wrong? You know? Or hey? Who you know? You don't recognize when I'd be like, hey, who'd you who would you take hunter ed from? Oh, officers such and such? Well, I know we covered this, so what's the deal, you know? And it's that situational ethics. They just you know, like one of them. One of the things that sticks out to me is a is another decoy. And we spend a lot of time in the region and I work in dealing with decoys because we have a trespass issue and a road hunting issue, which is a is a safety issue is what it comes down to. And they, I mean they it was a granddad taking his his grandson out. And it's not like granddad was old, he was in his fifties, but it was ten degrees that morning, and so here we are standing out in the bushes and the dark, freezing her butts off. And then lo and behold they come rolling up and this kid just to hunt her head that year, you know, and it's just like and Granddad's got sneakers on. He's like, well it's ten degrees. You think we're gonna go walk in the woods. Well why do you even leave the house? And you know, it just I don't know, they just lease their mind, do you think that? But but some of these people is not like I could see if you had some gigantic buck decoy out, yeah that's not Yeah, but I could see then you might have some guy pull up and like the gears are turning right and he's like this is wrong. But man, but the people you were showing us aren't they're ready to roll. Yeah, they're like actively out hunting. Yeah yeah, actually not put out large like um because I had heard that maybe you used to be able to, but now you can no longer it out like trophy sized animals. Yeah. We don't have anything in in our whether it's our our policies or standard operating procedures that prohibits us from doing that we just don't. We don't need to, it's so rapid. The one my brother rolled up on was a big mulder in eastern Montana. He rolled up on a big mulder, Yeah, and he said it had an electronic neck. Yeah, they you know, tail flaps. He said he was looking at trying to figure out what was wrong with it, and all of sudden someone's banging on his window telling to move along. But he said it was a nice buck. Yeah. I had a I had a buddy a couple of years ago that was coming out of a spot and uh and saw a really big bull on the side of the road and it just stood there and stood there, and he looked at and he's like, man, those guys must be running decoy. And he he drives off and he ends up texting me. He's like, man, I saw you guys, decoy. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's yeah, how are you guys running that the bull elk on such and such a road? Nope, not us, Yeah, it was it was alive out just standing there being stupid, you know, ran back to and it was just like unbelievable. So but like one of I think like I said that there's you know, not toot my horn. But there's been a lot of memorable cases. But kind of earlier on in my career worked with another officer that would receive information that these two women had drawn moose tags and that their husbands were actually bull bull moose, which is a trophy species and I know, once in a lifetime, and so the husbands had already killed their bull moose once in a lifetime and so now they had in their pockets their their wives, and so we were yeah, it was a grand scheme that was just absolutely foiled. And so then so they each got ten thousand dollar fines. So they each one up killed a bull. Yep, And you guys kind of knew who was gonna be pulling the trigger around those ups. Oh yeah, we had all the information we needed, and yeah, it was just a matter of tracking them down and interviewing them and coordinating that the wives were nowhere to be found. They were two miles on the other side of the state. Yeah. Yeah, ten bucks to kicking the nuts, Yeah yeah, and a vacation that goes along with it. Pull your privilege, oh yeah, yeah, every every vile, every misdemeanor, you can have your license revoked for up to a year or not more than three years, I guess it is. Yeah, and then you're losing it in forty two states. Yeah, yeah, that would stink. Yeah, man, And that happens and you can't Yeah, well the brass you know, hawais got good hunt. Yeah. Um man, So what what's your message to um? Like, like, what's your message to sports? Know, when it comes to adher, it's to the law. Do you ever get to say to a guy a poacher? Right? Do you ever do you ever get to tell him like, man, here's why you ought to be with the program. I don't get into the point of lecturing very much. No, you know. One, you know, sometimes they're just absolutely ticked off that they got caught. And so it's not the time nor the place because officers safety to have that conversation, you know, and so um you know, and some guys, you know, I had another supervisor back in the day, it's long since since retired that he'd be like, yeah, he's like, see that guy, he found religion, you know, and you refer to that he was a reformed poacher, you know, And and so yeah, and some guys they turn around and then other guys are just like, catch me again, you know, and so you don't take the time to be like, you know, this is all the abstract, but you're stealing this from your fellow maybe yeah, no, we in some instances we do, you know, and you you kind of it's not so much the guilt trip. But you know it's not so much you know. I put it in terms of man, you got kids, You've got a grandkid. You're stealing this from them. You're not hurting me, You're hurting them. You know, you're here in the next generation. This has nothing to do with me. You know, you're stealing from somebody else. And we have that conversation routinely, you know. And and I think when you put it in those terms sometimes people see the light. They don't, you know, they don't put it in that broad perspective of who's looking at it as a victimless crime. And that's what wild wildlife crimes are, is a victimless crime. You know, you look at traditional policing in the United States, there's always a victim, right and and you know, whether it's a homicide or you know, something like that, Yeah, there's always a there's always a victim. But in wildlife crime, you know, yeah, it's the it's the property of the state, and then you know, the residents are the state. But in the end, you know, if you don't know, you don't know, you don't know what you don't know, right, and so it just it ends up being a victimus crime. And so yeah, in the end, I mean, it comes down to an appreciation of wildlife and what what its value is, you know, and and you know, are you willing to do it? Right? It's it's hard to understand why some people do it, you know, because they'll just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. But like I think, like like what this guy was saying about just people doing it for the for the bragging rights, I do really think that that's at least the kind of poaching I find most problematic. I really think is people saying I want the recognition, I want the respect that comes with success in hunting. Um, I want to be able to demonstrate to my peers, right, but I don't want to go through all that bullshit and have all the uncertainty. I just want to get it like this, Yeah, you want to see from home and come home and be the guy that got one. Yeah, it troubles me more than like a dude who you know whatever shoots white tail Doford Freezer. As wrong as it is, it's just like different to me. Now. I know you, I know that that that like goes against everything right that you probably believe in, being the job you have and everything. But just like I like, I like you do you draw like you know, we have like all these relatives when it comes not relatives like people with agy, but you make like relative comparisons of of worse and worse and worse. You know. Then you have like the you know, like the fulk hero Robin Hood, right, I mean you know he would poach the King's game to to to give the meat to the poor. So it is kind of like ingrained in your head. There's like there's like an acceptable thing. Well, and that's like I was saying earlier with the with the the old you know where it's the old guy. You know, we're gonna keep doing this, but hey, we're not going to report violations because they needed the they needed the meat. You know, it's that to minimize the whole violation. So you're your point, Yeah, but I get your point, Like it's not the Great Depression anymore. No, no, no, And in society has you know, we see it more and more that society has placed a pretty significant value on wildlife in the United States. I mean that is why it's held in public trust, right because we all value it. It's just nowadays, in this time, we have placed even more value on it, you know, you know, like it would be interesting to hear from you three, like I mean Remy already kind of pointed it out with the Utah was the Utah example or just that how much how much an auction tag would go for, you know, and how much that value is. But you know, I think that all of us would agree that, you know, wildlife any you pick, any species has a specific value you know, to you whether it's a in intrinsic or a monetary value, you know, it just that's how yeah, I think I always think about when I think about preservation wildlife and being a law abiding hunter and all things go with it. Um At a time in our nation's history, for a long time, we had uh wildlife kind of like we had wildlife despite our best efforts to eradicate it, meaning just uncontrolled market hunting, environmental exploitation. You know, it was like we were devouring the resources and we still had some. Yeah, and it's interesting because you know, and I think about that, and you know, it's part of part of conservation. Like I said in earlier is you know, you think about those times, whether it was market hunting for plumage for women's hats or unregulated bison hunting, you know that almost decimated did decimate populations. What was the thing that stopped at all? Regulations? Right, That's what changed everything, not not us doing biology. Was about regulations and the fear of getting caught. And so yeah, it doesn't that that wasn't That was like the follow up point I was gonna make, because no, we have wildlife in this country because people have worked their asses off in order to have it. It's not like they're kind of by happen chance anymore. No, not at all. I was there because No, because we put together this elaborate system by which we could have civilization coexist with wildlife. What's allowed that is creating laws and enforcing them. Had we never got around to doing that in in the years basically from around to around nineteen thirty, if we hadn't put together the suite of wildlife laws we have now and not like pulling this out of my as, I mean, you would not have American wildlife. Well yeah, and you look at um the Lacy Act was from the nineteen thirties, right, I think is when or in the seventies when was Lacy Act? I should know this, Oh, the one that legal wildlife travel. I think that I don't know if that came a little later, but like Pittman robertson nineteen thirties ban market hunting. Yet that stuff all came out around that time. And in the ban on you know, sale of you know, sale of plumage, Migratory Bird Act, you know, like a whole suite of things started coming out somewhat earlier, because I think it was still the eight nineties and Wyoming made it um a jailable ends to kill a buffalo, right, and then it became illegal to sell wild game in New York City, and then you know, on and on and we created this thing and then we had this radical rebound um and now we take some of us and and that's the I think that's a point we need to clarify though, is that, um, most hunters and anglers The vast majority are law abiding and and very committed conservationists. It's just that very few that that ruined it. Oh yeah, And I know a lot of people will say like, oh, we shouldn't be having this conversation because you're you know, you're making it look like all the stuff goes on, but we're talking about real stuff that goes on. But I think that, like a poacher should know the reason he even has something to poach, it's because of wildlife laws. Yeah, exactly, that like wildlife laws are keeping you from the resource. Wildlife laws created the resource or allowed the resource to sist. Yeah, and and they absolutely take it for granted. Yeah. I think it's like I think it might be motivated in some part by lack of historic perspective. Yeah, I think historic perspective and in appreciation, you know, like you said it, we have these wildlife numbers now because of our forefathers, UM decided that it was important that we're gonna spell out stuff you can do, stuff you can't do. Yeah. Yeah, and so now, yeah, they just take it for granted and be like, oh, you know, they're shoot, there's another white tailed buck out there somewhere, you know, what's one, Rebby, what's your concluding thoughts. I just I'm gonna go a little lower nine hundred Lacy Act and some of the laws. It looks like nineteen oh seven, we're starting to being forced. That's I was just glancing, but no, but I think that like the whole Pittman Roberts that they was seven. Yeah, it was the Federal Restoration and Wildlife Act, and that was when they put exercise taxes on firearms and ammunition to support to support wildlife conservation. That was pr Pittman Roberts. And then ye, so you're gonna go more low bro, I want to know what the dumbest thing you've ever seen is? Yeah, I mean you concluding thought could be a question, yeah, because I mean I think that's just there's got to be some stuff that you've seen. It's like, oh my gosh, this is I think that the decoy one with the Galleradin in the back of the truck. I mean, I've seen lots of stupid stuff, but that one. So to put that one in perspective, you know, like the program you know says they were actually targeted that that couple and they had drove by two weeks before that spot, and we had contact him your old compliance check and we're like, man, there's gonna be a tag transfer here. The guy is gonna shoot her. ELK. Never would I have imagined that she was gonna be riding into the bed of the truck. But they had already drove by the decoy once and we're like, man, they didn't see it. Yeah, they know, they didn't see this standing out in the stubble field. It's like, oh darn it. And then then they ended up turning around and I can see them, and then they came back. I mean, that in itself is unbelievable. They were already contacted. I mean within that hundred yards stretch of that roadway. They were contracted by myself in another uniform officer, just ten days before that. And so selling them what just a regular compliance check. And then when we when we got done, you know, checking licenses and tags and um, we're like, hey, you got permission here? Oh yeah, yeah, and it's just like it doesn't sound like you do. It doesn't sound like you know who the landowner is and uh, and so yeah, it's a regular compliance check. And as we're walking back to the patrol vehicle. You know, the officer on with and we're both like, he's gonna shoot her out, there's no question about it. Lo And behold, no, not at all. She's gonna shoot it from the bed of the pickup laying on the When you guys put the decoy, you figured the dude would show up and shoot at it. Yeah, yeah, with her tag turned out, he was just a great caller. That's funny. What's your gluten dog, Yonnie. It's a concluding follow up question to um. I've always minished about, like the pursuit of game in a vehicle, right, we know you can't shoot from motorized vehicle and you can't Idaho. Well yeah, yeah's with the exception of waterfowl. There's finally just a few states. But then you can't shoot waterfall unless the motors cut in the in all forward motions ceased. Yeah, so we'll speak just for Idaho. But I'm guessing you can't harass wildlife from a vehicle, so you can't like corral them or heard over, drive them. But these days a lot of times you get a situation where so how do they spell out? Like motorized used to like pursue an animal. Is that so it would be as an aid to hunting. Um, they're specific um hunt with a motorized vehicle. So and we we kind of touched on her earlier. That definition of hunt is very broad, chase, pursue, harass um, it's very broad, and so it's easy to fill in what they're doing. See, that's I've always I think maybe you're kind of thinking of like some Arizona regulations as well, maybe because I think in Arizona, if I spot, say I'm sitting in my truck with a window mountain, I spot an elk, I have to lead. I can't actually go after that elk because I would be from a motorized vehicle. No, you couldn't know you technically you couldn't drive over there and then go after it. That's kind of my question is where do you do glass from a truck? Well, but let's just say that you're away, and then you drive over, you get out, you get out again, and then you hike up there. Yeah, it's a very fine line. I mean in in North Idaho where we all work, I mean, it's plain as day, they're just you know, for a lack of any better term because it's not defined in in the regulations road hunting that term in itself, I mean, we all know what it looks like, but it's uh. I mean that would be that hunt with a motorized vehicle. Now what Remy's talking about spotting elk like two d two miles away and then driving a mile and then hike in the other mile up to him. I mean that would certainly be within within bounds. So in in Idaho, though, say you you're driving down for a service road, you look over, you see a deer, so get out and you are I don't know what your rule is for shooting off a road or whatever, kids you from publicly maintained highway. So if you're on a for a service road and you're actually off the road, and then you know, if you're not violating any is that so? So the way that we the question that we usually ask, are you looking for something to hunt? Are you looking for a place to hunt? Okay, you're right, right, So so for that road hunter, you know, are you are you looking for a place to hunt? Are you looking for something to hunt? Right? It makes sense, right if you're just driving around all day looking for deer out of the truck. We've got a problem if you're like incidentally driving and all of a sudden, you know, you're like, ohly crap, slam on the brakes, get off the road, make sure you're not on posted property. Yeah, it's a different story. Yeah. Now my my concluding thought, and I don't even want you to respond to it. I think more states need to take a better look at radio hunting. Radio hunting, Yeah, like using electronic communications. Some states are out in front of it, Alaska, Montana. It's legal in Idaho and Nevada, not Montana. What I'm saying, and that's that's that, you know, regulations are just hard to keep up with technologies. Particularly it's gonna get It's like it's gonna get worse and worse. Yeah, and yeah, absolutely, I definitely agree with it. It's quote I quotedly Elo Leopold earlier. Elo Leopold said, we're always improving the pump, but not the well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, ethics is constantly evolving. Hunter, ethics is constantly evolving, you know. But but in this case, but that's an interesting point. But in this case it's different than that, because this thing is we're talking about emerging technology, not traditional use, but emerging tech. Everyone clearly drones. People have no problem getting out ahead of the drone issue. Yeah, and that was quick to do, okay, So it's like that, you know why it was quick and easy because there wasn't there wasn't any emerging culture that we're of drone hunters. But I think that they're kind of missing the boat and getting out ahead of electronic communications. I think that's just gonna get worse. Yeah, that's all go ahead and stay well. So so on somebody's somebody's reading list on the meat each site. Did somebody have Arctic dreams? Yeah? Me? I love that. Yeah. So in there, Lopez talks about how anthropologists note the hunting of um buffalo by by cliff jumps and then also caribou by U river crossings and then but at that time that was an ethical practice, you know, and so you know, which is interesting because today we would cringe if somebody did something like that, because there are still there are still units in Alaska where you can kill caribou in the water out of a boat with the twenty two traditional use traditional use. I'm saying that was an area where that's like that's hot traditional use. It's how people have utilized that resource for a long time. And you can still sit at river crossings there and kill sithing Carrey with the twin two mm hm. But it's not I mean, you can't do it, you know, if you're in that unit anyone, you know, I think you have to have a substance instigent. It's a subsistence only. I don't know if I but like the law attends to like favorite traditional us just like running deer with dogs in the South, Like you could run deer with the dogs in the South, Yeah, they hang in quarter you if you ran deer with dogs in Michigan. Yeah, yeah, in Michigan, everyone looks at if they see a dog chasing deers, your civic duty to kill the dog, yeah, which is always a And it comes back to the situational ethics. Like I said, you know, it's like it's like, you know, people kind of get up in arms about you know, whether it's um chasing bears or lions with hounds. But then you you look at like a guy hunting birds upland it's like man, you got that a quail and that big dog chasing that thing where's the balance and the way. But the way I look at it as is that people have been running bears and lions with hounds for a hundred years. A hundred years Boon hunted bears of dogs. That's how Boon did all this bear hunting was with hounds. So it's like traditional use practice. Some emerging technologies come in and you look at like like laser range finders really changed the game of hunting. Now you could look and say, oh, yeah, they allow people to take real long shots. And I'm also saying okay, but they could also dissuade you from taking shots you have no business taking, because it tells you more information, like it's not an automatic. It's like it could be helpful in other ways too. Besides just like like like as Leopold said, it does more than just improve the pump, right. Um. But I think in some ways, some stuff like two way communications, and I'm not outlanded to bring this stuff because a lot of states have and like these aren't like lefty states Montan and Alaska, I mean like conservative states with strong hunting cultures have gotten out and said two way communications is not that's not something working. That's not a well, that's not a pump improvement we're looking at, right. Yeah, yeah, I think that's just gonna be I think it's getting out of control and it's gonna get worse. What do you think about? Um, I've just kind of noticed this over recent years is something that I could see it probably never but Google Earth Maps, so you can be walking around now on your phone and see exactly what's in front of you. You no longer have to know the area as well as the person ten years ago that had to read a topo map and actually hike around. But yeah, okay, so but then you can also say, but then they had maps, and prior to that they didn't have paper maps. Right, yeah, but what's the so like anything you look at is is it giving a disadvantage to the animals? I don't know. I think if you had some way that was giving you real time imagery of where animals were, I think that's something they would take a pretty serious look at. Yeah, but I don't imagine. I'm just like, from a pragmatic standpoint, I don't imagine that fishing game agencies they are going to start trying to control what mapping technologies you use. See now, here in Montana, it's illegal to use trail cameras after season starts, right, Well, yeah, but while there's an open season. But that's pretty much the entire year, because I mean there's there's bird seasons, there's there's always some there's that doesn't break my heart. No, it doesn't mind either. I mean I actually think that like in Nevada you can use trail cameras on antelope. Well, the guy that used to go out and shoot a poping young antelope had to work his ass off for it. You had to go out there and find the antelope, to spend days in the unit, figure out where that analog watered. Now you can just go out and if you've got enough money, you could set out a hundred trail cram cameras on a hundred water holes and hunt one day. Not that that doesn't take work, just that and the other thing. But your knowledge is not from hunting, it's from technology. And but when I look at these rules, I also look at what sort of state we're talking about. Montana is a is a very hunting friendly state. They just you know that that initiative just came up where they're trying to ban trapping on public land got shot down by an overwhelming majority. So I'm like, when when Montana do something like, okay, no trail camps during season, I'm like, Okay, that's coming from a hunting friendly position. That's not coming from a position of just trying to like limit people's activity in order to curb or curtail hunting. The trapping band in Montana that got shot down, I'm like, that wasn't coming from a hunting friendly position. That was just coming from the position of people trying to whittle away at your rights. So it's like you're weighing this stuff out all the time in your mind. What's your concluding thought? I think, you know, sportsman, I just need to get involved, support your local game warden. You know, bring the muffins and coffee, you know, the middle this season, maybe a fresh baked pie. Would you say on average that uh CEOs are regarded or um uh you know, just like yeah regarded. Do you get the respect you need? Just like on average, if it's one out of two times you like received in a positive manner or in a negative manner? Positive, absolutely positive? Oh yeah yeah. People like to see out there. Yeah, And in that public opinion, yeah, they say in that public opinion survey we did, they say they don't see us enough, which you got eleven square miles. It's hard to do. But is that just the funding thing? If you guys had more funding, you'd have more CEOs. I have no idea. I have no idea, but it's just a you know, people generally enjoy seeing the game warden. They like to know that you're out there and keeping the playing field fair. But it's you know, it's not just the game warden doing that. You know, we need the help of of sportsman, you know, report and violations when you see them. Yeah, I I think, I mean, I think there's a lot of game wardens that are hunters, but it seems like now there's also I've been seeing a lot more that are not hunters. They're just in the law enforcement aspect. But I almost think it is imperative that a game warden be a hunter himself because they understand the value of the wildlife, not as a law but as an animal that you value. You hunt, you eat, And to me, I just don't see how somebody that doesn't even hunt, can you know, like make that work. Yeah, And we in Idaho, we are still very stuck to you having some sort of hunting and fishing background. Now, I don't think we we check fact check like okay, so, so how many deer have you harvest over your lifetime? You know, how many days you've been out in the field. Um. But you know that's one of the things I impress on those new officers is hey, buzzloader hunt, No, well you better start. You know, there's no better way to talk to talk than to be able to do it yourself. You know. Um, it's like hound hunting, you know, it's you know, has you've been out behind hounds? Oh? No, you know that's what the new guy, new guy would say, and our new gal and well you need to go find one of your local houndsman and buddy up to him and get a better understanding of what's going on here, so you know what you're looking at when you see it. Yeah. Yeah, So I agree with you, Ramy. It's it's imperative to be a good game warden and an effective game warden to totally understand and have that skill set. You know, it just helps you. You know, it's a in a way, as a game warden, your hunter yourself, you know, you're just a poacher, you know what I mean. And so you gotta understand that you gotta understand where the game is and when to find the game, you know. And so just driving her around patrol and happened. Stands running into things just doesn't work. Yeah, alright, man. We talked to a game where in the other day in Colorado, and I said, hey, you guy, do you think cool you confiscated And he said, um, it's too hot, and Sony, no one's getting anything, so I can't confiscate anything. So he knew, he knew the situation. He's looking at it with the hunter's perspective. Yeah, oh yeah, and that's how what you have to do. Yeah, all right, well thanks for joining us many thank you. If we can keep one guy from getting the ticket for something stupid that he should not have done and it decides not to do it because he listened to this, this will have been a successful program. It will all right. Thank you,

Save this episode