00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the news show. 00:00:03 Speaker 2: Cal's back and on this episode, we need you to help us solve a mystery. Cal Who's back, talks corner crossing updates another jaguar is hanging in Arizona, or as Spencer Newhart says, Jaguar Michigan makes some major buck hunting rule changes, and Giannis is here to. 00:00:20 Speaker 1: Tell you all about it. 00:00:22 Speaker 2: Seth reports on the end of the integrity of fishing, but that's probably not how he looks at it. My wife took a mouse home, which still surprises me. South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan and more. 00:00:36 Speaker 1: But first our news. Here's the biggest thing. 00:00:43 Speaker 2: Periodically on the news show, we're gonna start doing this is quick, but periodically on the news show, We're gonna start doing these little we need these, we need audience help. We are doing finally, we are in the mid We're in the process of working on an extended series about the mystery of who killed the world record white tailed buck. Was it Milo Hanson who recently passed away, or was it Mitch Rompola And the main thing is is the Rompola buck legit. We're doing a whole series on it. Jordan Sillers, who you know in Love and Blood Trails, is running this project with my assistance. 00:01:25 Speaker 1: We're cranking on it. First. Here's the first call for help that we need. 00:01:32 Speaker 2: If you, if you listener, if you someone in your network, whatever, There's two people we're looking for right now. If you know about a Texas man who in the late nineteen nineties was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola buck and backed out of that purchase, can you send us a note again, a Texas man who was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola buck in the late nineteen nineties and ultimately decided to back out of that purchase, please reach out to us. 00:02:20 Speaker 1: How do people supposed to reach out? Where they Where should they send the note? 00:02:24 Speaker 2: What's the meatiam min Argist podcast, the meet Eater podcast at the meeater dot com, The meat Eater podcast at themeeater dot com. Put Rompola ro O m p O l A in the subject line. Second thing, if you or anyone you know worked for an outfit called the Arkansas County Seed Company in the late nineteen nineties or early two thousands, please reach out to us again. Anyone who worked at Familiar with knows someone who worked at a place called the Arkansas County Seed Company in the late nineteen nineties or early two thousands, please reach out to us. 00:03:11 Speaker 3: Did you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries? 00:03:12 Speaker 2: Steve No, I know about it. My agent used to produce segments. He used to reenactments. 00:03:17 Speaker 3: Hosted by Robert Stack. There'd always be a great moment, sometimes like one in five episodes. At the end of the end of the episode, they'd have an update, and you get a little rush watching that because they've just like potentially cracked the case. That's how this feels. That you're you're like casting a wide net and sure, we're gonna have an update come next episode. 00:03:35 Speaker 1: I hope, So, I hope so. Uh yeah. 00:03:38 Speaker 2: My agent, Mark Jerrold, my literary agent. He's been my agent for over twenty years. He used to did you say America's Most Wanted? 00:03:45 Speaker 3: No Unsolved Mystery? 00:03:47 Speaker 2: Sorry, he used to produce the reenactments for America's Most Wanted, like back a million years ago, the weirdest job in the world. Yeah, like when it gets all like trippy, you know, and there's like a shooting in a hotel or something that was his job. 00:03:58 Speaker 3: It'd be fun. 00:04:00 Speaker 1: Oh here, here's the deal. It sounds that weird to me. Sounds like no, yeah, like not weird, but like yeah, yeah, like. 00:04:07 Speaker 4: One of those things they don't tell you about high school at career day. It's like a not a job that comes up. Yeah, Steve, get closer to the mic. 00:04:17 Speaker 2: My wife, Oh my god, look at this. My wife was hiking the m hill in town and she sees laying. 00:04:26 Speaker 1: Look at this, she sees. 00:04:29 Speaker 2: Listen to him, laying in the trail, laying. 00:04:32 Speaker 1: In the middle of the trail on a rock. 00:04:36 Speaker 2: A brand new born mouse that doesn't even have his eyes open yet. 00:04:41 Speaker 1: Look at that picture. Huh, it's eyes weren't even open. 00:04:45 Speaker 5: Are they born with no hair? 00:04:46 Speaker 6: I thought they're born hairless. 00:04:47 Speaker 1: Well, he's not brand new there, but like, what the hell is he doing out in the middle of the trail. I don't know, just laying there, eyes closed. Do you know what kind of mouse it is? 00:04:55 Speaker 2: Jimmy thinks that he thinks it's a deer mouse or something. Look at listen to listen. So it's eyes weren't even open yet, and I'm thinking, there's no way they're. 00:05:05 Speaker 1: Going to keep that thing alive. But my boy starts, where's that little deal? 00:05:10 Speaker 2: He starts feeding it even though its eyes are closed. He's feeding it with this. 00:05:15 Speaker 1: Here for me. 00:05:17 Speaker 2: He's feeding it branch dressed puppy puppy milk replacement. 00:05:23 Speaker 1: It's yeah. 00:05:27 Speaker 7: Were you guys all like, thank god, we don't live on a cruise ship. 00:05:30 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:05:30 Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the issues that came up was all that anti virus ship. So I had to keep telling my wife like, he's probably gonna catch something from us, We're. 00:05:39 Speaker 1: Gonna catch something from him. 00:05:41 Speaker 2: And then uh, then our dog got sick, and then she thought the mouse was killing the dog. 00:05:47 Speaker 1: Well, that doesn't seem to be it. 00:05:48 Speaker 3: What's the long term plan with this? 00:05:50 Speaker 1: Watch it? See if he's hungry right now. 00:05:53 Speaker 7: Musky baites. 00:05:55 Speaker 5: Look at that. He knows what's up. 00:05:57 Speaker 1: Oh dude, it's great. This little mouse. 00:06:02 Speaker 5: Squeaking. It sounds like the A frame. 00:06:07 Speaker 2: You gotta watch this. This is the weird I'm hoping I can trigger the weirdest part of this. Get a good loading there, Okay, watch this is the weirdest weird. Yeah, he doesn't know how to swallow real good watch, so he has to do this little thing where you think he's having a seizure. 00:06:20 Speaker 1: Watches. You might be getting too old for it. Now, no second, I see it coming your hand. It lasts ten seconds when he has a seizure. 00:06:36 Speaker 5: Look at its please, he's. 00:06:40 Speaker 1: Not there anyway, we can move on. But the surprising part about this is, you guys know Katie. 00:06:47 Speaker 5: That's pretty cute. 00:06:47 Speaker 2: Katie is the last woman on the planet. It's going to bring a mouse home? 00:06:53 Speaker 1: Obviously not well no, but you would. 00:06:55 Speaker 2: Think, right, it's not she's gonna step on but she's she's not gonna like squish ship, but she's not gonna bring it home. 00:07:03 Speaker 1: I want him to do his seizure. 00:07:06 Speaker 8: It seems to me that she's more frequently to get weird stuff out of the house. 00:07:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is paybag. 00:07:13 Speaker 2: See when he gets mad at he's when he's done, he's done, he makes all kinds of noise. 00:07:18 Speaker 6: Let's he dragging around on his belly there then dried up. 00:07:25 Speaker 1: He just took a growler. 00:07:29 Speaker 2: Anyhow, I don't wash up because I don't want the hantavirus. And then you guys can keep talking about the news. Now that's interesting, NOI isn't it. 00:07:38 Speaker 9: You guys haven't come up with a plan for that mouse his future. 00:07:42 Speaker 1: Yet how long do they live? Not gonna get rid of them? 00:07:46 Speaker 6: That's what I was asked, let it go that they let it go out in the yard, and I don't. 00:07:52 Speaker 2: The kids aren't interested in that yet. They were like, no, is there a name yet? It's Mabel, but Yanni's daughter. 00:08:01 Speaker 1: But with a E meeble the mouse Google search. 00:08:10 Speaker 6: How long randall you should go into your captivity. 00:08:14 Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't think people are interested in my chickens. I am. 00:08:18 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:08:18 Speaker 6: I think we think, well, give us the quick version. We are Steve's washing up. 00:08:23 Speaker 9: I just I feel like, yeah, okay, well just three pet mouse. 00:08:29 Speaker 8: We lost another chicken to birds of prey and got home from the Great State of Florida on Monday, and I thought, man, there's a lot of big chickens there that the chickens have all grown and turned dark. Instead, it was twelve vultures they were killing or they were consuming one of our chickens. 00:08:51 Speaker 3: When you pulled up after being gone, Yeah, twelve vultures were there. 00:08:54 Speaker 8: Yeah, And then they came back. I chased them off, and then they came back about an hour later. 00:08:59 Speaker 1: So I've been looking at into. 00:09:00 Speaker 9: Uh yeah, circle in your house. 00:09:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been back three times now since then. 00:09:06 Speaker 7: Are you gonna apply for a US Fishing Wildlife permit to destroy vultures? 00:09:10 Speaker 1: Did you? Oh? Did you read ahead? No, you don't even have that in front of you. I've looked into it. Yeah, I've looked into it. 00:09:16 Speaker 8: Depredation, uh, depredation permits, because I don't really know what else to do. 00:09:22 Speaker 1: Do you have a netting over the top of your chickens. 00:09:26 Speaker 8: Well, now we have, we have fishing lines strung up. We've got reflective stuff strung up. We're doing all we can. 00:09:34 Speaker 7: Lethal measures because they're covered, they're covered under the especially if it's hitting your your livestock. 00:09:43 Speaker 5: Next episode, we did yeah, poorly, poorly. 00:09:48 Speaker 8: We just got through the chicken segment. It went about expect Yeah. I didn't come into the right attitude. 00:09:54 Speaker 1: Though he didn't. He didn't bring any energy. I didn't. I would have brought a dead chicken down here and like laying it out. 00:10:00 Speaker 7: The fun thing to me. Yeah, And it's a delicate conversation around the Williams ranch Williams Chicken ranches that they're not at the point of chicken farming yet to where a dead chicken is means absolutely not just sweep it up. 00:10:17 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I'm there, get there. 00:10:20 Speaker 2: I missed it, Like, I'll watch later, but like I don't one to ten, Like, is he just maybe not cut out for that kind of segment. 00:10:27 Speaker 1: No, I just think the chicken. 00:10:28 Speaker 8: I just think that our audience the chicken, the chicken stuff. I just think they're they're tired of it. I think they got the. 00:10:35 Speaker 6: Well, it was the buzzards, not the chicken. 00:10:37 Speaker 2: You'd have a vote, like a vote where people vote on the mouse segment or the chicken segment was better. 00:10:42 Speaker 1: I still have that. 00:10:44 Speaker 7: I still have that interest meter up in my office, Steve that that guy made. 00:10:47 Speaker 1: The mouse to bring that down sometimes, Yeah, we can do it next week. 00:10:50 Speaker 7: I think people need to vote on what they would think of Randall. If he were to get a US Fish and Wildlife Depredation permit, nuisance permit and remove of twelve vultures. 00:11:02 Speaker 4: That's to saver that one's going to care about vultures. That's not bad optics. Now, if he was gonna wack some bald eagles. 00:11:11 Speaker 8: And let me be clear, I'm not this is not a plan I'm making I've only done the preliminary research, but it's three now, three chickens now by the buzzards. 00:11:20 Speaker 3: If I came upon that scene, I wouldn't automatically assume that the vultures killed the chickens. 00:11:25 Speaker 1: It was like a stray cat. 00:11:27 Speaker 5: It seems like they're cleaning up. 00:11:29 Speaker 8: Yeah, that's that's my initial assessment. There's been some there's been some very hasty internet research that says they do do that. 00:11:39 Speaker 2: When you're on there, When you're on the internet, there can you find out what kind of mouse that is? 00:11:43 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean I actually have a better I have a better story than the chicken vultures. It's the time Sydney called me to say there's a mouse in the house, and I said, I thought I killed them all. And then I go back and there's a little bald baby mouse. 00:11:55 Speaker 1: Did you raise it up? Nopea chickens. But I wondered how. 00:12:00 Speaker 8: I wondered how it got on the floor of the closet because he couldn't walk. 00:12:04 Speaker 1: And so then I started going through all the stuff above in the closet. 00:12:07 Speaker 8: I realized there's a travel pillow up on the top floor. Up on the top shelf of the closet that had been chewed up and hollowed out, and then I started going through all the pockets of the shirts and coats below it found ten of those suckers. 00:12:20 Speaker 1: I don't know you lived in Philip and Squalor. 00:12:22 Speaker 5: Yeah, was this. 00:12:25 Speaker 1: The best efforts? Yeah, this was in Missoula. 00:12:28 Speaker 8: So then I had ten ten little baby I think my understanding is that i'd probably trapped their parents the day before, and then they went out in search of a guardian like Steve's family. 00:12:38 Speaker 1: That could have been why he's in that trail. Anyhow, God, my stories are that they do you want to start up? Phil So we're out of time, all right? 00:12:48 Speaker 2: Uh so coming up here Monday. There's there's no interview show. There's no interview episode dropping on Monday on the Meat Eater podcast feed, which is Memorial Day. We had a we had an awesome guest booked. They had a health thing. 00:13:06 Speaker 1: They're rebooked. Don't worry, they're fine, But there's no episode on Monday. 00:13:09 Speaker 4: It's gonna be good. Can we give like a little teaser about what's gonna be. 00:13:13 Speaker 2: A person that studies the old factory capabilities of animals and humans. And one thing we're gonna talk about is this idea that people and I say it too, that humans have a bad sense of smell. One of the things is that's not true. There's some things we can smell. There's some things we can smell very acutely, but we just don't put any value on them anymore. 00:13:37 Speaker 1: Sulfur, Like if you take a grizzly bear on rotten meat. 00:13:43 Speaker 2: And whatever you get into like parts per whatever. A human on sulfur is unbelievable. We just don't respect it. Anyways, And a lot of her research is around squirrels, interesting old factory capabilities of squirrels. She's fine, she's them can can be good for you should already rescheduled? 00:14:02 Speaker 8: Could she potentially speak to the great dry land tracking versus snow track? 00:14:09 Speaker 1: You know what, why don't you come down? 00:14:10 Speaker 2: You can sit into Yanni's sitting in because Yanni's gonna ask her. 00:14:13 Speaker 4: I've already sent her twenty oh questions like that and similar. 00:14:17 Speaker 2: So anyways, on Monday, what will happen instead on Monday is we're gonna fill that slot with something we were already doing anyways, which is Yannie's twelve and twenty six Companion Podcast episode Answering your questions about his Manitoba caribou hunt. What could people expect to seeing that video? 00:14:36 Speaker 4: Yanni, Uh, they can expect to see a grand adventure to the North country of Manitoba where some mong Yang and I went and did another hunt with our buddy now Craig McCarthy North Mountain Adventures, who I Bear hunted with the previous spring, and he was looking into possibly expanding his operation into the North country for some caribou, and he kind of needed a group to go and then just do a trial run. And I was like, Oh, that could be us. That sounds like a good time. I like going on hunts like that where it's like it's not like he's been there for ten years and you know exactly what you're gonna expect. So yeah, samong and I went when Max Barda and Eli Harris filmed it, and we had a great time. You know what we did. We did the thing that you often don't like. We brought two weapons. 00:15:25 Speaker 1: Playing it on taba. HOWD disapprove of that? 00:15:29 Speaker 5: Okay? 00:15:30 Speaker 1: But I think you would approve it. Make your bed and lie in it, That's what I say. 00:15:35 Speaker 4: But I think you would approve because we didn't do the thing where you go up there and you're like, I'm gonna hunt with my boat and then when I can't get it over my bow, I'm gonna pick up my rifle and shoot one. We instead went out first with rifles and said we're gonna knock down a couple of a couple of boo, get our meat hanging, then we're gonna go have some fun bow hunting. That makes no difference, doesn't matter, I think. But that doesn't That doesn't change. 00:16:02 Speaker 1: It's not like a deal. 00:16:04 Speaker 2: It's not like a well, it's not I got to make a law about it. 00:16:06 Speaker 1: It just always strikes me as odd. It always strikes me as odd. Always. Yeah, if you can kill, who approach makes sense? Who cares what I think about it? This just always strikes me as odd. 00:16:19 Speaker 4: I just thought that this would have changed it, because I felt like your complaint in the past was that people act like they're gonna be serious about bowl hunting and then they give up and they switch to the rifle. 00:16:29 Speaker 1: I just don't do like years ago. 00:16:34 Speaker 2: Remember you were there, Remember we had on, Remember we had on we interviewed bo Jackson. 00:16:39 Speaker 1: Yes, bo Jackson is very interested in. 00:16:44 Speaker 2: He's very interested, like getting a deer with a pistol, getting a deer with this, getting a deer with that, you know, I mean, like very interested in the weapon of choice. 00:16:55 Speaker 5: I'm tracking. 00:16:56 Speaker 2: He's very method of taking. Like if I go spear fishing, I don't be like, well, I'm gonna bring a homemade one. I'm gonna bring of this one. I'm gonna bring of that one, you know what I mean, I just like bring the appropriate spear guy. Yes, I'm not like a mixing up method of. 00:17:13 Speaker 4: Take down instead of using rod and reel out of a boat, which you could just as probably well catch all those fish. 00:17:20 Speaker 1: That you're shooting. 00:17:21 Speaker 2: No, you can't ask Seth. Seth will tell you they're always hitting on steel. 00:17:28 Speaker 1: Seth. I'll tell you, Seth, I don't want to go ahead. 00:17:34 Speaker 6: You're doing the whole show to prove or disprove this theory. 00:17:37 Speaker 2: Actually, so we are, Well, Yeah, you can pull up to an oil rig, you can drop all the baits and throw all the jigs and do everything you want and nothing right. You think that there's nothing there. You dive underwater and it's carpeted and fish It's. 00:17:50 Speaker 5: Like, that's true, heart, that's true. 00:17:53 Speaker 1: Carpeted and fish even with some live bait. 00:17:56 Speaker 5: I don't know if we tried live bait. 00:17:58 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, carpeted and I want to keep going on the news show though anyways, doesn't think tell people about the video real quick because we got them. 00:18:08 Speaker 4: So Simong and I went hunting with Craig and Uh I had a lot of luck. Smong did a I can't believe we've never done this in all the years of film and meat eater. He did a h he did tripe cariboo stomach, which is way cool, something we had never covered off on. 00:18:25 Speaker 1: And did he call it anything weird? Nope, he called it monks dow. 00:18:29 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Yang was making me some of that, and he called it poop soup like you got a brand, Yeah, you rebrand poop soup dah. 00:18:40 Speaker 4: He did say though, that in tougher times they would eat the stomach contents with the you know, with soup as as opposed to cleaning it all off and just eating the tripe. But we weren't in a position where we needed to do that. But surprisingly, actually it wasn't surprising. I mean enough tripe to know that it's really doesn't even have a flavor. It's more of just the texture and it's like a filler like I would imagine. 00:19:06 Speaker 1: There's probably not that many. I don't know. There's probably some calories and the stuff that I don't like. I don't like lung brain and I don't like stomach. 00:19:14 Speaker 7: Oh, man, go get a tripe taco where it's fried crispy and then it's guey on the inside. 00:19:19 Speaker 2: Oh my god, maybe loung brain and lung brain and gut. 00:19:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, not my scene. Well, it was a great adventure. You can see it now on the meters. 00:19:29 Speaker 2: Uh, it's like Yanni hunts Cariboos. 00:19:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yanny catches a Caribou's first archery cariboo. 00:19:40 Speaker 1: There you go, Oh, there you go. 00:19:42 Speaker 4: You know how, we're always trying different thumbnails with sometimes different titles, So I don't actually know if it was a title. But if you shoot search Yannis meat Eater Caribo. 00:19:51 Speaker 8: I'm sure if you search Gianni's apostrophe first Archery Cariboo, you'll definitely get meat Eaters twelve and twenty six. 00:19:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll you'll be right there. 00:20:01 Speaker 4: But yeah, if you have any questions after you watch the episode, that you'd like me to answer, put them in the comments, and uh, Karinn and Corey and myself, we're going to go through there and curate the best questions and then I'm going to answer them on the podcast. 00:20:15 Speaker 1: It's going to come out on the Memorial Day. 00:20:19 Speaker 7: All right, Cal'll take it away, corner cross Where do you want me to start on this thing? 00:20:25 Speaker 2: Just like what Let's go back to the beginning. Let's not go back to Adam and Eve. Yeah, but. 00:20:34 Speaker 1: Uh, let's take it from how it was. 00:20:41 Speaker 2: Good law? Where was it declared corner crossing. Let's not do the whole checkerboard explanation, good law, Federal Court, Supreme Court, and what's next. 00:20:53 Speaker 7: Again, The main thing is is folks who've been tracking this Wyoming since an sits in the Tenth Circuit Wyoming over the course of three years, went through a corner crossing case that that made it up through the Court of Appeals and then was reviewed by the Supreme Court of the United States and ultimately determined that the lower court's rulings were were good. And that's where the Tenth Circuit sits. Me Eater was a big part of that because we did a bunch of fundraising through our Land Access Initiative for that corner Crossing case, raised support for for the funds for that that legal fight Montana. Since it sits in the ninth circuit. 00:21:45 Speaker 2: Ever since, can you refresh me a little bit like tenth is New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming. Yeah, and ninths must be US Idaho, Washington is how it goes. Yeah, someone grabbed that way Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah, Wyoming is what that would be? Tenth Okay, and hit me with ninth Randall's on it Internet. 00:22:16 Speaker 1: It seems like a really easy and I know he's never gonna which. 00:22:21 Speaker 8: Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, and Arizona, some big heavy hitters in there. 00:22:30 Speaker 1: And the Northern Mariana Islands. 00:22:33 Speaker 7: Yeah, and we get a lot of mail from Guam. Yeah, so we we have there through our Armed Forces initiative, We actually have a bunch of b H A. 00:22:48 Speaker 5: R Is on Guam. 00:22:49 Speaker 7: Okay, they they just kind of live in one particular spot and have access to a lot of fun stuff. Anyway, within the ninth circuit, So that tenth circuit case would be the case that gets referenced if there was a federal case in the Ninth Circuit, it is persuasive, but it is not technically the law in the ninth. But it would be that thing where it'd be like, boy, it went all the way through here. 00:23:20 Speaker 2: So you know what corner crossing was going through the tenth And then the thing people would reference was the Unlawful Enclosures Act. If it went through the ninth, you would sort of throw that out and reference yes, you would start referencing the latest iteration, which was the corner crossing question. Yes, so people would be like, well, the precedent or whatever or the guideline is really fresh from tenth. 00:23:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. 00:23:50 Speaker 7: And the thing to remember too, there's their state and federal law. Unlawful Enclosures Act is federal. It was a law and you know, passed through Congress, signed by the President I think four years before Montana ever became a state. So there's no question as to what came first. But there is no federal case in Montana. And how it became a federal case in Wyoming. Most people are like just because like didn't necessarily have to, but it was interesting enough at the time that a federal judge decided to pick up that case. So, and it's not it's odd that you can't. There's avenues to make an appeal to a federal court, but it's not just something that that is is. You can't just pick and choose randomly. 00:24:51 Speaker 2: So where whereas it in the tenth in Wyoming? What what the incident that led to corner crossing being clarified legal is that there was some guys that corner crossed. 00:25:06 Speaker 1: They were cited for corner crossing and they were acquitted. The landowner appealed, they won, and that was the inciting incident. Was a specific corner crossing mechanism. 00:25:20 Speaker 5: Yep, and. 00:25:23 Speaker 7: A lot of similarities to right. The state of Wyoming had said, this is not something that we're going to prosecute on both your game wardens. Basically your law enforcement agencies were already at the point of like, this isn't something that we we do unless there is actual trespass, which means like causing damage, spending time on private ground. 00:25:49 Speaker 2: And if this had if just a little civics lesson here, I think I'm clear on this. The landowner that was trying to keep it illegal, to make it illegal corner cross tried to take his case to the Supreme Court. Yes, the Supreme Court declined to hear it. Yeah, so that ends that, That ends that legal fight. 00:26:10 Speaker 7: It does for there. 00:26:11 Speaker 2: But had the Supreme Court taken had the Supreme Court taken it and again declared it's legal, would that have then been Would that have then been for all districts? 00:26:24 Speaker 7: That would have been like the precedent setting case. 00:26:28 Speaker 2: So that would have all of a sudden made it that it's just like across the West where applicable it's legal. 00:26:34 Speaker 7: Yeah, and you know it's our right. We can still fight these things. But an attorney is going to be like, hey, here's the deck that's stacked against you, Like I'll take your money, but. 00:26:49 Speaker 1: Like they declined to hear it, right yeah, yep. 00:26:52 Speaker 7: So back here in the Ninth Circuit, the state of Montana has this long history of paying attention to corner crossing, not paying attention to corner crossing, internal memos saying we are gonna we are not going to issue citations, will defer to the county attorney's office. Once the Tenth Circuit Court decision was made, then we started to see things change here in the state of Montana. Where they were kind of beefing up their language. The state was beefing up the language Montana Fish, Wildlife and parks is you know, they don't get to create laws and rules and regulations, they just enforce them, and so they're they're the mouthpiece for this, right And eventually they essentially created a rule by saying wardens are going to cite for corner crossing, and at that point Montana bha and eventually myself had had multiple conversations with the states. 00:28:11 Speaker 2: I pause you for a second, yes, because there's the thing that just now is confusing to me. 00:28:16 Speaker 1: Yes, and it never confused me before. 00:28:18 Speaker 5: Yep. 00:28:20 Speaker 1: Why is corner crossing a fishing game? Like? 00:28:27 Speaker 2: Why is it a fishing game issue? If it's a state wildlife agency and corner crossing can be federal or state and you could feasibly corner cross to go do anything. 00:28:39 Speaker 1: Yes, you could corner cross to go. 00:28:43 Speaker 7: Camp, hike and bike, take a bathroom, cutwood or whatever. 00:28:48 Speaker 1: Why is it their problem? 00:28:51 Speaker 7: Because this is largely just focused on on hunting, right, It's like vast Bureau of Land Management land out there typically yeah, a lot of state land too, because it's. 00:29:00 Speaker 1: Just who's doing it like who's likely to do it. It's not a dog walking it's not regarded to a dog walking issue. 00:29:07 Speaker 2: Man. 00:29:07 Speaker 6: I think there's also an aspect of like taking game off of sure public game of you know what I mean? 00:29:18 Speaker 1: I get why, Like I get why, but I just well, well, the. 00:29:23 Speaker 7: I mean, the real I think the real way to break it down, right is because in our state trustpass laws you have civil and criminal and within that you have hunting without landowner permission. Okay, right, and that is something that game wardens there there, there, your your people. 00:29:46 Speaker 2: That makes sense because it's not the public end of it. You're right, it's not the BLM end of it. No, it's the the dude who's land your shoulders are passing over? 00:29:55 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:29:56 Speaker 7: And then and then you get into all the things that we heard in Wyoming case, which is like how do we define airspace? And and is this if it is trespassed, what are the damages? And how do we how do we define and and value the damages to private airspace? And it and a lot of this is just like totally academic. It's like having a really fun physics teacher, right, It's like, well, how many ants stretch around the circumference of the world right versus just like the practical nature of like are there damages? Is this something that the whole world needs to be involved in? How how do we extrapolate this out throughout time? All those all those fun things. So Montana BHA had had many many conversations with with the state on just simply saying, go back to the previous memo. There is no law in the state of Montana that regards corner crossing. Go back to this legal gray area. And for those who wish, they can take their chances on being referred to a county attorney. But the reality is like no county attorneys want to take this case. And you know, I can tell you right now, like I've never corner crossed. I know lots of people who do. This is not a new thing. It certainly gets headlines, but it's been going on forever. Years ago, when we were like researching places to hunt within the state of Montana to like helicopter into because they were they were so landlocked. Inevitably, I would talk to somebody and be like, well, you're not gonna be the only person in there. People corner cross in there all the time. It's just like something that is done. And then we started hearing this from Fish, Wildlife and Parks. You know, I just asked directly, I said, so, why, in our opinion there's an escalation in the language around corner crossing. Can you tell me why that is without. 00:32:28 Speaker 1: A foundational change and that's quite the opposite. 00:32:31 Speaker 7: And they said yes, it's because they said, you're right, we are using stronger language around corner crossing, and it's because we've received more calls on trust passing, not at the corner, to which I responded, well, that's great, that's trustpassing and we have lots of laws for that. Yes, So that that was just like an interesting bit of conversation. But then yeah, we decided to file a suit against Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, which again is like the mouthpiece for this. And in that suit we say, hey, you guys stepped over the line. You guys created a rule without going through the proper public process that we have here, so that's illegal. And then we would like the judge to define corner crossing in the state of Montana. We're asking for a declaratory judgment, so that's no jury, that's just the judge gets to decide. It's a very relatively quick legal avenue to getting a decision on something, not a first choice scenario at all. A lot of time there's risk involved with taking something to court because you may get a favorable decision that isn't exactly what you wanted either. But we do have a legislative session coming up here in the state of Montana, and that would be another way to define lawful access to publicly managed the ground. 00:34:23 Speaker 2: Do you see is there a world where it would be beneficial to have a person. 00:34:36 Speaker 1: Who is cited. 00:34:39 Speaker 2: And do the same thing that happened in Wyoming, like if you knew a guy. Let's say you knew a guy. 00:34:45 Speaker 7: Well, there's no guarantee it's gonna be picked up by a federal court. And we know the federal argument works great, and we don't you know, it is down to interpretation. Yeah, And the court cases that exist here in Montana are similar but different, you know, and some of them are pretty fun, like guys shooting ducks over other people's property. 00:35:12 Speaker 1: What can choose? 00:35:13 Speaker 7: You know, stuff that is very much in the hunter's wheelhouse, and it's it is a good reading. And so I would say, no, I don't want people to go out and get caught and cited and then and then say please please, let's go to court over this. You know, the better pathway was one to have the state to find this and two would go through the proper legislative route and and and get this buy in right. So there's a lot of actors at play here represent different groups, you know. I'll tell you Like when we made the announcement of incoming CEO to to Baha, I had a lot of people in the agriculture community, you know, just throughout like my friend and family network reach out and be like, Okay, how are you going to screw us? And how are you going to help us. It's really the whole. 00:36:23 Speaker 1: Conversation the corner crossing thing. 00:36:26 Speaker 7: No, interestingly enough, when I talk about this, almost almost every single person that I talked to, and these are like old Montana families, they said, now, if you could tell me that corner crossing would move the elk off of my absentee landowner neighbors property so they keep moving around instead of just coming onto my place at night, I'd be all for corner crossing. 00:37:01 Speaker 1: Well, this guy, I got it right. 00:37:03 Speaker 7: But the next door neighbor who is completely absentee, doesn't do anything but show up for a couple of days during elk season. That's who I want help with. 00:37:15 Speaker 1: Got it? When are we going to know more? How long will it be? 00:37:19 Speaker 5: So the. 00:37:24 Speaker 7: We filed a couple of weeks ago, then you have to serve, to my knowledge, it has been served. And then the state will have forty two days from from when they received the paperwork to uh make some sort of an action. 00:37:41 Speaker 1: Got it? 00:37:42 Speaker 7: So more than more than likely what they will do is ask for the case to just be dismissed. Say it, well, it doesn't meet no, no, no, this was just a memo. We didn't create a rule or a law, and as for asked for the case to be dismissed. 00:37:59 Speaker 2: In the mean time, if you or your friends are somehow taking a more casual attitude to trespassing because of your understanding that corner crossing is legal, and you just now feel like you're just allowed to go where you want, you're not only hurting you're hurting yourself, You're hurting hunters in general. 00:38:21 Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like you're also hurting this process. 00:38:26 Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, And the Lieutenant Governor gave a statement last week about corner crossing and essentially sort of just declared it illegal. 00:38:38 Speaker 7: And I don't I don't think the Lieutenant governor quite did that. She made her opinion, benod right, then Representative Paul Fielder. 00:38:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, thanks for telling us what the law is. 00:38:50 Speaker 7: Yes, he is the one who Then. 00:38:52 Speaker 8: But someone at the someone at the committee meeting said, you know, if this is illegal and has always been illegal, can you get us examples of people who have been cited for corner crossing? And the only she said, well, there is this corner crossing case, but it turned out that they were actually just truspassing. And there was this corner crossing case, but it turned out like when they went back and investigated, these guys were just it was just a plane trustpass So every example that she gave to sort of throw doubt on corner crossing is a legitimate form of access. Every one of those was were cases in which people claimed they're corner crossing, but they're actually just trustpassing. 00:39:29 Speaker 2: Because I think what's motivating that with people is guys are saying, hey, once we're on there, we'll just say we crossed at the corner, right, And those guys are going to screw this whole thing, right, Yes, those guys are going to screw this exactly, because if we're on there to say, we can't just like say we came over from blankety blank corner. 00:39:47 Speaker 7: Yeah, especially when you're out there in the middle of nowhere, right and oftentimes there are no fences. You're like, well, this seems pretty arbitrary. 00:39:54 Speaker 5: Yeah, right. 00:39:55 Speaker 2: If I was a landowner, I'd put a camera on my property on the corner. And then when guys are like my corner across and I know they didn't corner across, I know they came in from some other way, I'd be like, well, let's go have a look. Your picture should be on my camera, and behold, you ain't on. 00:40:11 Speaker 1: It, yeah, at the corner. 00:40:13 Speaker 7: The other interesting thing that the Lieutenant Governor brought up is problem corners, which is something that came up in Wyoming as well, where we don't have the exact location of a corner anymore because it was marked with a pile of rocks or a you know, dinosaur bone is something people reference. I've never seen that personally, and or there was a tree there, or there was something other than a survey marker, right, Big Boulder, something that is going to be very, very hard to cross over the top of without having to step on on private land. It's awesome that the Lieutenant Governor brought that up. The state of Montana is not doing anything to identify those. Neither has the state of Wyoming. We created a site at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers use an rgis where if you would like to turn in problem corners so we can identify them, that you can just PLoP your coordinate coordinates in there. And that can be a misaligned defence, that can be a missing monument marker, that can be all all sorts of things that just go, oh, this puts me outside of this legal gray air. 00:41:33 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:41:34 Speaker 2: I was, and the lead up to this, as this is going on, I was picturing and I don't even know how it would play out. I was picturing doing fundraising in order to help clarify mark and identify corners. The problem with that, I can I imagine my own problem you would run into is you would need to get the Land Management Agency on board yeap, and it just might not be a thing they want to entertain. But if you to go out and be like, hey, no, we're going to pay for it. We'd like to have we'd like to have the corner surveyed and marked, But then you'd have to do with the permit process with them, and depending on their attitude about how much they want to court controversy, they might not welcome that input and they might not have a mechanism to accept that money. 00:42:20 Speaker 6: Anyways, you probably have to get the landowners involved too, which they. 00:42:24 Speaker 1: Might they might not be that excited about that. 00:42:26 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it was. 00:42:28 Speaker 1: In my mind. 00:42:29 Speaker 7: And the thing that we've said from the get go or ed is like, we just need a nice, very quiet solution because the vast majority of these people don't want to be hassled. They don't want to see a bunch of trucks piled up at a corner. And I'm like, and neither do hunters. Like, we just want to know that we're in the right and not be hassled and go do our thing, and that is it. So there's a ton of ton of ground in the middle here, and we're really really trying to keep it that way. Versus see, some of these arguments get picked up like oh, it's anti private property rights, whereas we're trying to define private property rights, and like happened in Wyoming, we were very supportive of a bill that clarified private property language and you know, gave some assurances to the private side of the fence that people know what private property is. But what we're seeing out of the state so far is a lot of acknowledgment of the problems without any work towards fixing those problems, or like you said, you know, I had brought a solution that would take a lot of work, but I think would pay really big dividends for everybody. And you know, there just wasn't a lot of interest in endorsing that effort or even acknowledging it as something productive. But I think we'll get there, and that might be something that this lawsuit helps with. There's another program that we put into action in Montana through the legislature that would provide private property owners the ability to create easements through the block management program, so they wouldn't have to open up their property to hunting, but they could provide an access corridor to landlocked lands or corner locked lands. Man so same deal willing buyer willing seller scenario, and would be contractual, just like our block management private land public access program. 00:44:47 Speaker 1: Is slick man pay people for pay people for trespass. 00:44:50 Speaker 7: However, we can't get any metrics out of the state as to how many people were in asked in the program, how many people they actually talk to about it, any sort of feedback. And so, you know, I think if we want this program to succeed and be a viable option, put a couple of bucks in the pocket of producers who are keeping land open for wildlife connected. 00:45:18 Speaker 2: That might be a good private That might be a good privately funded effort. 00:45:22 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:45:22 Speaker 7: Yeah, And it's going to make a little pot of money, make people aware of. 00:45:26 Speaker 1: We got to move on. 00:45:27 Speaker 2: But but picture you set it up and you make a little pot of money and strike your own deals with a private with a private entity yep, nonprofit entity. 00:45:38 Speaker 7: Yep. 00:45:38 Speaker 2: All right, ladies, gentlemen, Ryan Callahan back from the dead, CEO of back Hunter Hunters. 00:45:43 Speaker 9: Names, welcome back, col Thanks right, thank you. 00:45:46 Speaker 7: Do I get to sit in on the rest of you out. 00:45:49 Speaker 3: Can I say one last thing? I'm looking at the thirty one page document with the Montana Lieutenant governor like made this announcement on slide seven of thirty one slides. They say ownership of real property extends above and below the surface. From ancient Roman law quote to whom whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also the sky and. 00:46:10 Speaker 7: To the depths, from the heavens to the hell. 00:46:12 Speaker 1: I think if you're if you're referencing what do they say about COVID vaccine recomend, if. 00:46:18 Speaker 3: You're referencing something from five hundred BC, from an empire that doesn't exist, you're on the losing side of the argument that that just like doesn't work. 00:46:26 Speaker 1: That reminds me of die do a from the land and from the sea. 00:46:30 Speaker 7: From there there's been this is where this is the structure of a lot of our private property. Lin in America right comes Roman England over here, and that has been referenced many times. Is like, yeah, that's a fun history fact. But is it applicable. 00:46:51 Speaker 1: People that kill Jesus? 00:46:52 Speaker 3: What if we find something from like the uss R that said something about like stepping from one. 00:46:57 Speaker 1: Because that's not because law and flow that way. I gotta move on. There is a thing to this. 00:47:04 Speaker 3: There is a thing that bird like like, why why can't we do the USSR? 00:47:09 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way? Okay, it's like the cradle of Western civilization. 00:47:14 Speaker 2: Anyhow, a new jaguars and Arizona. They named it Sinco, somewhat arbitrarily. 00:47:25 Speaker 6: Good job, Phil, good looking, kid looking jaguar. 00:47:28 Speaker 1: Dude, you want to see a great photo, Phil type in Jaguar in the snow. 00:47:34 Speaker 7: Just just a random jaguar, just. 00:47:36 Speaker 2: Jaguar and the snow. I know what image you're gonna pull up. Yeah, I'll tell you. It's somewhat arbitrary. It's the fifth jaguar known to be in Arizona in the last twenty years. Okay, it's more it's more interesting than that. What's interesting is so so this jaguar is hanging around. The people that are tracking it with trail cameras don't want to be too specific about its location, but it's in the sky island out and chains south of Tucson, in Arizona and cous to your country. Here's where it's interesting. This jaguar Sinco is using the same travel corridors it's using. 00:48:16 Speaker 5: Which one of these you want to look at? 00:48:18 Speaker 1: Never mind? I thought you'd pull it right up. 00:48:21 Speaker 2: Arizona jaguars snow. There's a trail cam photo. Just whatever, never mind, keep that one up. 00:48:28 Speaker 1: For that's sinko. It is using this is where it gets good. It's using the same. 00:48:35 Speaker 2: Water holes, travel corridors, trails as another one of these jaguars did in the past. 00:48:44 Speaker 1: I can't remember. 00:48:45 Speaker 2: I don't know which one, but it's it because so it's like there's there's two things. 00:48:48 Speaker 1: One is it that. 00:48:50 Speaker 2: This piece of habitat is so good and it's like such a signature of what jaguars want. 00:48:58 Speaker 1: That it's like he just settled into the same place. Or is it that. 00:49:03 Speaker 2: There is years old residual odor from a jaguar which is holding this jaguar's attention, Or is it like site fidelity, meaning if you let's say you went to a farm and you killed all the deer off a farm, so there's no institutional memory, right, and new deer come back, They're probably gonna wind up coming out of the same corner bedding in the same area, right, Like they're gonna look at it the same way you take all the fish out of a lake. It's not like you put new fish in the lake that they're gonna have a totally different way of hanging out. They're gonna like the same stuff. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably true. So it's just interesting that they're drawn to certain things, which opens up the possibility because when jaguars turn up in Arizona, they're always males. They're dispersing males coming out of Mexico. But it opens up the possibility that what would seem so random that a female would s up and you'd be like, w how the hell's a female ever going to find a male? 00:50:04 Speaker 1: You know? 00:50:05 Speaker 2: But maybe there's something about the site specificity that opens up the idea that you could plausibly, instead of having one jaguar at a time in Arizona, you could plausibly have two that are drawn to the same place and find each other, which is promising. Again, this dude, Sinko is a male. All these are males. 00:50:30 Speaker 1: There's a guy. There's a researcher quoted in this Tucson Star. Is that the name of the outfit? The name of the old rag Sentinel? Tucson Sentinel. 00:50:41 Speaker 2: There's a researcher saying, perhaps these jaguars, I don't know where he gets this. They're fleeing persecution in the South. Come on, that's not what's the jaguars? Not like I'm sensing persecution of myself in the South. I'm gonna move up to like the North. It's dispersing males. It's like males trying to find new territories. 00:51:05 Speaker 6: When he says persecution, I don't mean by other males or likes. 00:51:09 Speaker 1: The same guy also get to their point. That guy, the same guy said, that's. 00:51:20 Speaker 2: A jaguar in Arizona. Picture of that jaguar in the snow. That's what I want more of in my life. Jaguars in the snow. I'm a big, huge you might not notice about me, huge jaguar advocate. 00:51:37 Speaker 1: I want jaguars back in America. Big cat guy, big cat guy, not just that big jaguar guy. They don't want to put a. 00:51:45 Speaker 2: Collar around these jaguars because they got a hangover from They got a hangover from the Macho be I know, listen, I'm gonna hear about it. I have dear friends that don't like talking about this. There's a hangover from an incident called the Macho b incident where in Arizona. I don't want to get into it too much. In Arizona, they caught a jaguar and sedated it with the sedative That is good for mountain lions, but is not good for members of the Pantera genus. 00:52:24 Speaker 7: And how'd they find that out? 00:52:25 Speaker 1: Because it had kidney failure. 00:52:28 Speaker 2: So now there is a man. Let's not be putting no collars, I no jaguars, I without being a without being a wildlife professional, I think you should. The reason I think you should is because it would help you when some guy sees this and shoots it because he's wondering what it is. It would help you know that happen, where that happened. Potentially who did it? 00:52:54 Speaker 7: Yeah, who the persecuting party? 00:52:55 Speaker 2: When it goes off radar. If you're only using trailcams when it goes off off radar, only thing you know is that it's not walking in front of your cameras. If you got a collar, you get a mortality signal. It just seems to me be better to put a collar on that son of a bitch, to to risk, to take the risk put a collar on it. If it was a female, I might be like, too risky, don't do it on a male. 00:53:21 Speaker 1: I'd put a collar on that sucker. 00:53:23 Speaker 7: But isn't it heffle fingers? Like long position? Like how much actual mating went on in the Arizona side of the line. 00:53:33 Speaker 2: I am not gonna mention Jim Heffelfinger, Okay, except for just what I did right there. 00:53:37 Speaker 1: Okay, perfect, I am not mentioning. 00:53:41 Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, yeah, good, good Yeah. 00:53:46 Speaker 1: The same researcher. The trouble with all this is this damn border. 00:53:50 Speaker 2: Fence between US and Mexico. I give my I'm not even gonna give my spiel again about this. This is a wildlife show, so I'm not talking about egg production. This is a wildlife show. The one way we can guarantee to never have jaguars back is you build an impenetrable barrier between US and Mexico because they're coming out of Mexico. 00:54:11 Speaker 6: We're going to talk about that next week. 00:54:13 Speaker 2: One of the researchers saying, when these jaguars come up against the border fence, he suggests, I get what he's getting. 00:54:19 Speaker 5: Act. 00:54:20 Speaker 2: He's trying to be like real anti fence, which I appreciate, but in this case this is his job. 00:54:26 Speaker 1: But then he. 00:54:26 Speaker 2: Uses the same scare tactics that I hate people using, like, like, just be honest, He's like, they come up against the fence and they'll just walk along the fence until they die of thirst or starve to death. 00:54:39 Speaker 1: No, that's just not what animal How animals? 00:54:43 Speaker 2: How many like go to any fence and walk along and find all the starve to death, died of thirst, deer along the fence, They come up to a fence, they try to find a way through, and then they go about their business. 00:54:54 Speaker 1: I don't think that deaths could. 00:54:56 Speaker 6: Be true if you're talking about I get it. 00:55:00 Speaker 2: He's kind of like being like, man, I don't want this fence. What can I say? That sounds like crazy that walk down the fence until they starve. 00:55:08 Speaker 6: And he's like. 00:55:11 Speaker 5: South Texas Colt Snap. 00:55:13 Speaker 2: I thought, or it seems like the beach the Atlantic coast would just be dead animals that hit the shoreline and then walked until they starved to death. It would just be nothing but dead animals up and down the coastline. 00:55:29 Speaker 7: I thought, Uh, we're making big headway on having permeable sections of the border down there. 00:55:35 Speaker 1: That's why I'm a big advocate of electronic barriers. 00:55:38 Speaker 2: As technologies get so good, Lord know's drones are getting good. As their technologies get so good, some people are even positing. 00:55:46 Speaker 1: I mean, there's even people that are primary, and again. 00:55:50 Speaker 7: There is like that Constitutional Sheriffs group down there that was like, no, we do not need a wall through Big Ben National Park and through Yeah. 00:55:59 Speaker 2: It's more more, and it's like we are brand promise is we focus on wildlife and outdoor stuff and hunting and fishing. 00:56:06 Speaker 1: So I'm not talking about this. 00:56:08 Speaker 2: It's out of this show's area of expertise to talk about the impacts of illegal migration, which are huge, and there are plenty of places you can go listen to the news and hear about that. This is a wildlife show. The fence is a good for wildlife. You can accept that and then come up to whatever decision you want about fences. 00:56:30 Speaker 1: That's up to you. I respect your decision, But for. 00:56:32 Speaker 2: Wildlife it ain't good. You can decide that you don't care about that. That's totally fine. That's your right as a listener feel what you think. For wildlife, it's a bummer. In addition to that, I'll say for the wildlife question, there's also increasingly there's an argument to be made that electronic barriers are more effective, quicker to put in place, and ultimately less expensive. 00:56:56 Speaker 1: I'll just leave it at that. There's plenty places to go read more about it. And we're also now going to talk about Jim Hefflefinger. 00:57:01 Speaker 3: Can I talk about going. 00:57:05 Speaker 1: Real fast? Get ready for an email? 00:57:07 Speaker 3: The other day, In an email, Jim called himself Forrest Gump. I'm currently reading. I'm currently reading Forrest Gump. He's not Forrest Gump. 00:57:17 Speaker 1: Oh, no, you can't read. It's terrible. It's really the book. 00:57:21 Speaker 3: In two pages, Forrest goes from protesting the Vietnam War to being thrown in a mental health hospital, to becoming an astronaut, to going to outer space with a gorilla, the wrong gorilla, to crash landing the space shuttle with in Papua New Guinea where he lives with cannibals. That all happens in two pages. So I'm sorry, Jim Hefflefinger, You're not Forrest Gump. Wow, the book is in and. 00:57:52 Speaker 1: I read that, damn. 00:57:52 Speaker 5: But don't read the book. 00:57:53 Speaker 1: The movies. The movie's great. I love the brick. Yea half a Finger not for kids? Half a Finger, No, there's a part. Yeah, I just want to move on. 00:58:03 Speaker 9: Let's move on. 00:58:04 Speaker 2: Just this morning, I was talking about having half a Finger come back on the show, about something totally different, which is super fascinating. 00:58:10 Speaker 1: He can speak for himself. Okay, who's up? I can't wait for him? Speaking of technology, ladies and gentlemen. This is Seth's first news story. 00:58:20 Speaker 5: Hopefully it goes well. 00:58:22 Speaker 2: See did you practice in front of your wife's no guarantees? 00:58:28 Speaker 1: Seth? 00:58:29 Speaker 5: I'm not worried about it. 00:58:31 Speaker 10: A recent study published by the i c S Journal Marine Science found that boats using the omni sonar or omni directional sonar while fishing the Big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament, which is a billfish tournament. 00:58:47 Speaker 1: Morehead City, North, kind of acting Michael Jordan competes. 00:58:51 Speaker 7: Now, yeah, is that. 00:58:52 Speaker 2: The same one where the dude had the one that got bit by a shark or something like that. 00:58:55 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:58:56 Speaker 10: They they found that, uh, boats that were using the technology experience sixty to eighty four percent higher catch rates than boats without the technology. 00:59:06 Speaker 1: I wish I could whistle better because I go. 00:59:09 Speaker 5: What is omni sonar? You might ask, well, it is. 00:59:15 Speaker 10: It is an advanced underwater scanning system that gives anglers a three hundred and sixty degree live sonar view. 00:59:22 Speaker 5: That's what the screen looks like. 00:59:23 Speaker 10: Visual aid so that there on the left would be a mark a fish. 00:59:29 Speaker 5: Really, Yeah, what's the other stuff. 00:59:32 Speaker 6: It's just it's it's like c current and you're not able to tell how far that mark is from the boat. 00:59:37 Speaker 5: Yeah, somehow. I don't exactly. It's like very high tech stuff that I have no experience with. 00:59:43 Speaker 10: But and I was watching a video on it, and it's it seems like they can click on that with a cursor and they can go to it, go to it. 00:59:51 Speaker 5: I can track it. 00:59:53 Speaker 4: Oh well, not remy, but Renee, Renee, he uses it. 01:00:01 Speaker 5: Yeah. I called him a few times and everything. 01:00:03 Speaker 4: He said that they basically they don't troll anymore. Yeah, they find the fish and then they feed that fish a particular bait that they I was watching. 01:00:13 Speaker 10: A video of it, and they're like, oh, there's a mark, and he like clicked on it, and the boat like kind of navigated to that mark. And he's like, all right, we're going over it right now, and he scans over. He scans his phone over to down image and he's like, there's the fish. And then he turns around and starts filming his baits that he's trolling, and then he hooks up on a fish Sons. 01:00:34 Speaker 1: Of Bitches Man, which called jealousirt. 01:00:38 Speaker 10: Yeah, man, anyway, it's like it's like Ford facing sonar, but it's like a three It cast like a three hundred and sixty degree beam around the boat and. 01:00:49 Speaker 7: Like yeah, and it descends out of the hole. 01:00:51 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a through the hole transducer. I have pictures of the thing. 01:00:56 Speaker 2: If we were a long time going someone invented a hook, would we be like, what's the world coming to you? 01:01:04 Speaker 7: I was in a technology seminar at the North American Wildlife Thing a couple of weeks ago, and one of their examples of emerging technology was choke tubes, and people were like, what's. 01:01:17 Speaker 5: The world right there to number. 01:01:21 Speaker 10: Three right here the far right is the actual unit, and then that's the whole, the hole in the bottom of the hole in the middle, and then that's the transducer coming out of the bottom. 01:01:35 Speaker 1: Put that sucker in and retract it out. This is a phenomenal. 01:01:38 Speaker 4: You don't want to be underway. I don't think with that. You know, you gotta you gotta. 01:01:43 Speaker 9: Did it say how much these systems cost? 01:01:45 Speaker 5: Yeah? I was gonna get to that towards the end. 01:01:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's going to need a new job. I'm gonna get off the island, all right. 01:01:53 Speaker 10: So the study analyzed two years. Randall c over there, Sure it's nice and warm. The study analyzed two years of data from this specific tournament twenty twenty four twenty twenty five, and the scientists doing the study compared catch rates between boats equipped with the technology and without it, and they found that the technology significantly increased catch rates of blue marlin and other plagic species. Data from three hundred and two participants was analyzed in twenty twenty four and two hundred and seventy two participants in twenty twenty five. Of the five hundred and seventy four participants, about fifty to fifty were using the sonar. In the two years that were analyzed, forty six of the boats Okay, this is a lot of numbers here. Forty six of the boats caught four or more billfish. So you can kind of see in this chart here the light blue does not have it, Dark blue has it. So allwood left there. That's you know, one hundred and sixty plus boats that do not have the sonar caught zero fish. Okay, you know whatever. Seventy five ish caught no fish. Now, if you go all the way to the right. 01:03:28 Speaker 2: So one hundred and sixty boats with no sonar caught zero fish. Seventy eight boats with no sonar caught zero fish with sorry, So if. 01:03:41 Speaker 10: You go to the right, here there is you know, you start you start getting to the part of the chart where boats with without the sonar aren't catching over you know, five fish? 01:03:55 Speaker 1: Can I can I deterprete this real quick? 01:03:57 Speaker 5: Yeah? Go ahead. 01:03:57 Speaker 2: It's a little confusing, No, it is, but I'm but I'm just under trying to think about people not listening. So if you look at like boats that got skunked, Okay, you got one hundred and sixty boats with no sonar that got skunked. You got seventy five boats with sonar that got skunked. So it's not a guarantee, right, But then you get down and let's say you're talking about catching four fish at the point when it's you caught four billfish. No boats with no sonar caught four. Ye, Only people that caught four are boats with sonar five fish. No one with no sonars catching five, six, No one with no sonars catching six, seven, same eight, same nine, same. So if you don't so basically this chart is saying, if you don't have sonar, your catch is capped at three billfish. If you have it, it seems you'd have the potential. 01:05:05 Speaker 1: To catch nine. 01:05:06 Speaker 2: But then this is the question I got for you, and I told you this when we talked. Is it just the classic case of that those dudes that the dudes that are so serious they would have caught more anyway, are also the guys that happened to have the sonar. 01:05:21 Speaker 5: Well, I got something for you. 01:05:22 Speaker 10: Whoa there were from twenty twenty four twenty five, there were sixteen boats that went from not having the technology to having it and their catch rate increased by ninety four percent. 01:05:36 Speaker 1: Wow, seth, you can can pay someone in a jury trial. I liked the. 01:05:41 Speaker 7: Four catch because that's like, like you, it's like people without sonar but really know the system, the currents there there, they're fishy dudes. That's where they drop off, right, It's like they they've all that skill then is outmatched by the advantage of technology. 01:06:06 Speaker 1: Am I hallucinating? Is there a blip? 01:06:10 Speaker 5: Yeah? So yeah. 01:06:12 Speaker 2: I even there's a sonar boat that is clocking in at eighteen billfish. 01:06:19 Speaker 7: Yeah, that had six of those on ours. 01:06:20 Speaker 4: I mean another way to read this they had one really good day. 01:06:24 Speaker 8: Another way to read this is that the majority of boats without sonar got skunked, and that boats with sonar were just as likely to catch one or two, essentially as ripping bills. 01:06:38 Speaker 6: Why this might come back to the cost thing, but why would some boats not even have it because it's. 01:06:44 Speaker 1: New or well, so he's got something for the great question, Brody. 01:06:51 Speaker 10: The researchers looked at the teams that struggled during the tournament, and of the boats that didn't catch any billfish, those without omnisnar out numbered those with it more than two to one. So cost breakdown the the omni directional sonar unit, depending on who you get it, from ninety five to one hundred thousand dollars install is twenty five to thirty grand. 01:07:21 Speaker 1: Could you death? 01:07:22 Speaker 3: Could you install them? 01:07:24 Speaker 5: I'd have to I go. 01:07:26 Speaker 11: You got cut a whole. It's not just any boat is a million. 01:07:36 Speaker 5: Or seventy kings that big expensive boat. 01:07:41 Speaker 6: I feel like for a lot of these boat owners that cost is. 01:07:45 Speaker 5: This just kind of puts in perspective. 01:07:47 Speaker 10: The tournament entry fee is fifty thousand dollars per boat, and the the purse in total is just over six point three million dollars. 01:07:58 Speaker 1: You're wasting money if you're fish and without Yeah, but you still gotta have it. 01:08:02 Speaker 2: Be your wife's like looking at credit card stuff and there's like a zinger. 01:08:08 Speaker 1: There is a zinger maybe on there that isn't normally on there. What's this one hundred thousand dollars? 01:08:17 Speaker 7: I'd be really interested to know, Like fuel consumed with boats, yeah versus without good argument. 01:08:24 Speaker 2: That's what you went up telling me, is like, baby listen, this is more. This is gonna save me on fuel. 01:08:30 Speaker 5: Yeah, and winnings. The percentage of time on the water goes up higher. 01:08:35 Speaker 7: That's the reasonall uh the twenty three boats out there is there's a lot of side money being wager. 01:08:44 Speaker 5: The Calcuttas is the big money in these tournaments. 01:08:46 Speaker 2: So then you just say you like, baby listen, man, it's like when you look at all my prize money and fuel savings, you're gonna thank me. 01:08:53 Speaker 8: I can go out and get a fish and be back for time at the country club, play a game of tennis. 01:08:58 Speaker 1: On the afternoon, to take your mom on the best in our relationships. 01:09:01 Speaker 6: Actually it'll be uh, they'll be like, oh that Mark's not big enough. 01:09:04 Speaker 9: We need to go find another one. 01:09:06 Speaker 4: His first year that one of these was in the tournament. Was there one boat that had it? Or was there are five boats that had it? 01:09:15 Speaker 1: Like, was there one year where one guy was just like yeah, or the boats that were thinking that? 01:09:22 Speaker 10: You know, I think that's how What are you sure about? I think that's how it was with like the beast Master lead series. You know, like somebody the first year forward facing sonar came on the scene. A couple of boats had it. Yeah, they were doing it well, I mean it took a lot. 01:09:37 Speaker 1: I like to know if it was one or if it was ten the first year. 01:09:40 Speaker 2: Hey, I want to point out to Seth was talking about that he got bad grades in high school. 01:09:46 Speaker 5: Yeah, Jimmy has a brave So there is a path forward. 01:09:48 Speaker 2: This guy, this guy over here, This is an amazing segment keeping up to the Jordan's power. 01:09:57 Speaker 4: This thing down Phil amazing, I note, Yeah, lunchtime. 01:10:03 Speaker 1: Spencer. 01:10:04 Speaker 3: South Dakota announced earlier this month that they are creating a new ELK unit that will have an unlimited number of tags. Before we talk about that, though, we should look at the history of ELK in the state kind of frame how we got here. Native to Damn near the entire lower forty eight Phil has a map there forests that shows this from the US Forest Service shows their historic range outside of Florida and a little bit of New England. Elk touch Damn near every state and for context, their footprint is very similar to the distribution of white tailed deer. Like that's how much they they crossed the entire cont. 01:10:37 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I didn't know. This is a great graphic. What I didn't know is that they didn't. 01:10:41 Speaker 1: Like the cascades. Yeah, they liked both sides. 01:10:44 Speaker 2: They didn't like the actual spine now specifically the Sierra Nevada. 01:10:50 Speaker 1: Sorry, didn't like the Sierra Nevada. Guesscades. 01:10:53 Speaker 3: I'd say that's out there North Washington, Central Oregon, specific to South Dakota, Manitoba, and Elker native to the whole state, as they are much of the Great Plains west of there, starting in central Montana, central Wyoming, the Rocky Mountain Elk east of there starting Minnesota, Iowa, or the eastern Elk Elk were extirpated from South Dakota in the late eighteen hundreds. It's thought the last one was killed there in eighteen eighty eight. The state started restocking them almost immediately less than a couple decades later, and they got those elk from Yellowstone Jackson Hole, and by nineteen twenty eight, South Dakota had an elk season again, so you know, thirty years later they were hunting them. Now, those restocking efforts were focused on the Black Hills, which is where about eighty five percent of the state's herd lives today. There is a picture from wind Cave National Park of an elk cred if you're not familiar to the Black Hills are located in way western South Dakota. It's where Mount Rushmore is, just east of Devil's Tower in Wyoming. The Black Hills they rise up out of the prairie. It's separate from the Rocky Mountains, and it's actually home to Black Elk Peak, which is the highest point east of the Rocky Mountains seven two hundred feet. The Black Hills are just like textbook l cabitat. There's about eight thousand of them that live there today. Now most of the bull tags that are considered once in a lifetime tags. In twenty twenty five, forty two thousand hunters applied for twenty five hundred licenses. Actually, today as we sit here, the archery draw happened and the rifle draw, so some folks are finding out that they just one of these lifetime tags. They just got their email congratulation this morning. In twenty twenty five, forty two thousand hunters applying for twenty five hundred licenses. Even having dozens of preference points isn't good enough to guarantee a tag. Last year, in one of their more popular units, there were six applicants who had twenty seven preference points and only one of those six drew a tag. That means those hunters had been applying since the nineteen nineties at one point. They still have to wait some more. We're looking at one of these draw tables right now. There were three guys with twenty eight points and only one of them drew a tag. So you're up for a long wait there. Harvest rates are always really high, though, because there's intense management spreads out hunting pressure limits licenses for bulls. Again, that's specific to the Black Hills, where most of the state's elklive. The other fifteen percent of the elk are spread out across the prairie, and there's some very limited hunting that happens with those herds. Most of those elk live on the west side of the Missouri River. The Missouri River kind of perfectly splits the state in half and actually plays a significant role in the state's wildlife management when it comes to big game deer, turkey's, elk, even some of their waterfowl. The state has kind of broadly created three distinct zones that they manage. There's the Black Hills where all the elk live. Then there's West River, which is everything left of the Missouri River that's not part of the Black Hills, and then there's East River, which is everything right of the Missouri River. When it comes to elk, it's easy to remember, Yeah, when you're having like a conversation with another South Dakota and it's like East River, West River, you know, it comes to like deer hunting. You grew up where you fezan hunt. It's just like perfectly cut the state and half makes it very clean for managing game as well as just communicating about game. Now when it comes to elk, the Black Hills has those herds that we talked about, and then there's the West River where some sporadic populations live. Variety of landscapes, butte country badlands, cedar draws, cattle pastures, prairie, egg river bottoms. It's not all that different than what you'd find in eastern Montana, for example, or western Nebraska, where elk also live. There's about a half dozen West River units that give out some tags, and it's thought that there's a few thousand elk that live west of the Missouri River that are not in the Black Hills. Then there's East River. There are just a sprinkling of elk that exists east River. This is a trail camp photo I got three years ago way eastern South Dakota, not even really close to the Missouri River, but they do exist there. 01:14:54 Speaker 1: Where are they coming out of? 01:14:56 Speaker 3: If you see one where I grew up in way eastern South Dakota, there would be equal chance that it came from western South Dakota or western Nebraska, or it came from a high fence farm somewhere in Minnesota. Eastern South Dakota just wandered off one day and got away. So this is a bowl elk. I got a pinch point I was bow hunting. I think in twenty twenty three. I also saw one on the hoof in twenty seventeen, so it happens. It's a thing. The state doesn't provide any official numbers for the herds east River. There's just some guessing as to what their rate is. But up until this year, if you were to shoot an elk east River, you'd be considered a poacher. You get fat, fine, you lose your hunting rights. You'd just be labeled a straight up evil person by your fellow autdoorsment because you took one of the state's most coveted animals out of a range that is expanding to all on its own. That is no longer the case though, in South Dakota, because they are now giving out an unlimited number of elk tags for everything east of the Missouri River, besides tribal lands, which is its own thing. They want they want them gone, they want to eliminate them. Agriculture. Yeah, we'll get to it. 01:16:13 Speaker 1: The new two. 01:16:15 Speaker 3: No, it's I like. 01:16:19 Speaker 1: The new elk tag. 01:16:20 Speaker 3: It's it's created to eradicate the elk that live east of the Missouri. 01:16:23 Speaker 1: River because when they eat something that's different. 01:16:26 Speaker 3: Very different. Here's some quotes from the South Dakota Game Fish and Parks reps about this new tag. Quote, elk are a fantastic big game animal that are welcome in every other part of the state. But the fact that the fact is we just can't tolerate having them in eastern South Dakota. Here here's another quote from Director Tom kersh Uh. He said this in the meeting where this was voted on, quote, we have no intentions of managing elk on the prairie in the eastern part of the state. Now, during this brief process, the GFP is refer instan that these elk are creating problems with landowners by eating crops and wrecking fences, which is why they explicitly said they will not tolerate them. Here's a picture in western South Dakota of a bowl elk that is feasting agriculture. 01:17:15 Speaker 1: So bitch is like at a blind. 01:17:17 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's standing right in front of an elevated redneck blind. Legislative committee voted forty two to allow this. In a separate vote by the GFP commissioners, it's a group of eight appointed by the governor. They unanimously voted to approve this. So the GFP suits are all about this elk eradication plan. Residents do not agree with him, though. I posted a poll in a private Facebook group called the East River South Dakota Hunting and Fishing, which is just what it sounds like. It's largely made up of South Dakota residents who like the hunt and fish east of the Missouri River. There are seventeen thousand people in this Facebook group. I asked, what do you think of the new unlimited East River elk tags? Do you approve, disapprove, We're not sure. Three hundred twenty three people took this poll. Seventeen percent said that they approve, seventy three percent said they disapprove, and ten percent said they're not sure. That means that more than seven out of ten South Dakotas do not like this management. 01:18:13 Speaker 1: You sure that wasn't the Iran War. 01:18:16 Speaker 3: I haven't seen that talked about in the East River South Dakota Hunting. 01:18:19 Speaker 1: And remarkably similar breakout. 01:18:21 Speaker 3: It's a similar approval rate. 01:18:24 Speaker 1: Of the seventeen approves in defense, Sorry, go ahead of. 01:18:29 Speaker 7: The seventeen percent that approved. Do they have access to a play out? 01:18:34 Speaker 10: Uh? 01:18:34 Speaker 2: Huh, yeah, I've been seeing one. Yeah, it's it's it's indefensible. 01:18:39 Speaker 3: I'm with you. 01:18:40 Speaker 1: I agree it seven its native. It's like God put them there. 01:18:44 Speaker 3: I was expecting you, Steve to do a gotcha and say, well, they're rocky mountain elk, so they're not actually native. But South Dakota in their elk management plan, calls elk the biggest native uh deer that's hunted in the state, so they they consider even though they're rocky mount rocky mountain elk and not native to South Dakota, they call them a native animal. 01:19:03 Speaker 6: But I mean Pennsylvania and Kentucky are rocky mountain elk too, I know. 01:19:08 Speaker 2: But if they knew that it was all game farm escapes, it's not I could see it. If you have elk wild elk walking in on their own four feet onto native habitat, that's a that's a no no. Yeah, there's like a moral no no. 01:19:28 Speaker 3: Their main argument is that the elk are creating private land conflicts. Well guess what that happens in every state Eastern Montana, western Nebraska, western North Dakota, eastern Wyoming, eastern Colorado, central Pennsylvania. 01:19:40 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah, and kill every elk in the country and. 01:19:43 Speaker 3: Just across the Missouri River. In South Dakota, the same thing happens. 01:19:46 Speaker 2: And this is the ass depending on your perspective, totally. You hit them with your car, that's a pain in the ass. They eat your crops, that's a pain in the ass. I don't know, ticks, whatever, You should kill all everything, it feelss can be a pain in the ass. 01:20:01 Speaker 3: Maybe this is where they would have landed eventually, but they skipped like twenty steps to get here. You know, they went from Hey, we have elk expanding all on their own too. We don't want them here, so we just have to eliminate them. 01:20:13 Speaker 1: Turkeys can be a pay They should kill all the turkeys. Turkeys can be a pain in the ass. 01:20:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's hazing programs, there's depredation tags, there's reimbursements given to landowners who carry that burden of feeding elk. There are reimbursements given to landowners that allow elk hunting. These are all tools that South Dakota currently uses when they manage their elk. But for some reason, they've they've gone away from all of those for this East River herd and they're going straight to we need to get rid of them. 01:20:37 Speaker 6: Is there other state that maybe you looked into this. Maybe is there other states that feel the same way about elk, like Kansas. 01:20:45 Speaker 3: Or well Yanni brought it up there, like in Texas. Uh yeah, Texas, I agree. 01:20:52 Speaker 2: I but Texas turned around and made native made, made native elk non native. 01:20:57 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I. 01:20:58 Speaker 7: Think uh Ark and a lot of their reintroduced states do have zones of like tollerants kind of like we do for the Byson. So it's like outside of here then there's way more liberal tags or you know, various ways of man understood. 01:21:12 Speaker 4: It's easy to say, oh, let's just have them there, but you have to remember that it costs a lot of money to manage these animals. And when you have a new population like that, it's like if all of a sudden you said, oh, I have the money, I will pay for it to for you to manage these animals, they'd probably be more forthcoming. 01:21:31 Speaker 1: How much does it costing them? And again like that, oh I think a lot. 01:21:35 Speaker 4: I mean just the well, because it's it's the ag depredation, right, like that's what they like. 01:21:42 Speaker 1: But the elk west of the river are eating crops. They are, but it's been like socially accepted there. 01:21:49 Speaker 3: It's like the West River prairie unit that's like kind of new as well. I mean, like if I were to talk to my dad or my father in law that came along in their lifetime and they're just like cool with you know, having Elton West River that landowners deal with. 01:22:04 Speaker 6: Is it a thing where the damage is happening now or they're just trying to get ahead of it as before that population. 01:22:11 Speaker 2: I don't know this, but I know you know what I'm saying. You ever have a thing where you know but you don't know. 01:22:16 Speaker 9: Well, there's some guy. 01:22:18 Speaker 2: There's a well healed guy. There's a well healed guy that has the ear of his local politicians, and he's down there and the local politician really looks off to him because he's like the salt of the earth and he wishes he was like that guy, right, And that guy is. 01:22:36 Speaker 1: Like, I don't want you some of the bitch and elk running around. Yeah, And the guy's like, oh, I'm tough too. I'm a big tough guy, rancher guy. And so he's like, we shill kill them all when you'll see how tough I am. 01:22:46 Speaker 3: When they the East River population of Elk, they say they mostly exist between peer and chamber, and Peer is the state capitol. And so it's exactly what you said, Steve. That's what people suspect is that like there is someone who has the dinner of Peer, there is a donor who would like will get to benefit from this, or he. 01:23:07 Speaker 1: Just wants to be able when they show up. He wants to be all shooting because it's big bulls. He's got a big bulls. An example of my argument if you can do it quick, because we got kids show in Wisconsin. 01:23:17 Speaker 4: I was talking to some of our neighbors who experienced elk depredation of their crops last year, and a couple of counties to the north it happens all the time, and they pay out the farmers it's no big deal. So they've been letting like this population is growing. It's come down into the county where we have some land in there, the Cirtle. The soil is extremely more fertile than two counties to the north, so there's a much higher production per acre and so the payout that they're having to do for this for the same amount of acreage. When an elk comes in and kills you know, one acre, it can be tenfold. 01:23:55 Speaker 5: The dough. 01:23:57 Speaker 1: But extend the logic. All wildlife is a pain in the ass. I understand. 01:24:03 Speaker 2: It's like geese eat crops. So if the logic holds, they should cease to exist. It's always been true of everything. If the fact that something causes problems means it shouldn't be around, and you extend that logic out, it's silent spring. All wildlife is a pain in the ass. From someone's perspective, I have a. 01:24:31 Speaker 1: Thing living in my wall right now. 01:24:34 Speaker 2: Whatever that is, I'm not gonna I believe it might be a pine squirrel. 01:24:38 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be like they all need to die. 01:24:40 Speaker 9: You might have a mouse soon. 01:24:42 Speaker 1: No, it's too big. This thing is big. 01:24:45 Speaker 9: No, I'm saying that mouse. 01:24:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty soon they're gonna hang out of that mouse to hit them out getting out of that thing. 01:24:52 Speaker 3: A couple more things real quick. 01:24:53 Speaker 1: Oh. 01:24:53 Speaker 3: I feel like typically it's kind of a lazy argument when wildlife man should be like, we should just relocate them. If there's like a problem bear, we should move it. You know, there's like elk are causing crop damage, we should we should move it. From the nineteen seventies to the nineteen nineties and a twenty year span, South Dakota relocated over seven hundred elk. So this is like something they've done in the past. They're very capable of putting these things. 01:25:16 Speaker 1: On every one of those thousands of dollars. 01:25:18 Speaker 3: Okay, but like that's a better alternative I think than just like getting rid of these things. 01:25:25 Speaker 1: Make it disagree. I want to move on by disagree, but. 01:25:28 Speaker 3: Then then relocating them. I'm saying the state's. 01:25:30 Speaker 7: Don't have trouble with a new format of the there's this drive to keep moving. 01:25:34 Speaker 1: Yes, that's the episode of title today. 01:25:38 Speaker 6: Just let them hunt the damn things, but don't make it unlimited. 01:25:41 Speaker 1: Give us some takes. Just keep moving. You got anything else? 01:25:43 Speaker 3: Go to my final image film, last hurried, last thing the state record typically was killed a few years ago. It gross or it scored three ninety two gross, three eighty three net. And guess what that elk was living on private land in western South Dakota on the prairie. Like this is a bull that just on the other side of the river, spent all of his life, for most of his life, living on private ground, and South Dakota is very happy to manage these helk the ranchers deal with them, and we produced a state record bowl. 01:26:12 Speaker 8: And a very happy man. 01:26:16 Speaker 2: You could you produced the state right, you could have a spike be the state record. 01:26:22 Speaker 1: You'd have to be. We produced a world record bowl. 01:26:24 Speaker 3: Well, we produced a three hundred and eighty three. 01:26:26 Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense. 01:26:28 Speaker 2: But like you see what I'm saying, right, Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time on it. 01:26:33 Speaker 9: Speaking of elt, I got another story about out. 01:26:37 Speaker 3: We need to manage him like a game animal, not a man. 01:26:40 Speaker 2: Done done, I'm gonna send a letter of complaint to the South Dakota Tourism Board. 01:26:46 Speaker 9: Chronic wasting disease. 01:26:48 Speaker 6: Well, before I get to the National Olk Refuge, Delaware just became thirty seventh state with CWD, which leads into what I'm going to talk about. Chronic wasting disease was just detective, like officially detected on the National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming. If you don't know what the National Olk Refuge is, it was established in nineteen twelve near Jackson, Wyoming after a severe winners and over hunting decimated the elk herd in that area in the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundred's kind of the same story that was happening everywhere. 01:27:22 Speaker 3: It's where South Dakota got some of their elk. 01:27:25 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a federally managed wildlife refuge. Congress created it to provide winter habitat and do supplemental feeding to avoid, you know, having that whole herd start to death. Ultimately, it became the largest wintering ground for elk in North America and on average anywhere from eight to eleven thousand elk spend the winter there and it's become a major tourist attraction. 01:27:56 Speaker 1: Just to bring it home and Suspenser's gale. 01:27:59 Speaker 2: Part of the current justification for the elk refuge is that it did it reduces they supplemental We're going to get to that. 01:28:06 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's alright, alright, that's all right, jump. 01:28:12 Speaker 1: Before we get Steve, it's hard. 01:28:14 Speaker 6: I'd like to move on before before we get to the CWD end of this thing. The National elf Refugees federally managed. Why the state of Wyoming also has twenty one other elk feed grounds in the northwestern part of the state. Now, the it's the same reasoning to have these things prevent large scale winter starvation, maintain large elk populations and associated hunting opportunity, reduce conflict with ranch a ranch lands. 01:28:46 Speaker 9: Like haystacks, livestock feed. 01:28:49 Speaker 6: Reducing transmission of brucellosis between elk and cattle, and to support tourism and wildlife viewing. People like c w D, like scientists have been warning about these feed grounds forever as far as what seed, as far as CWD is concerned, But the State of Wyomings kind of painted themselves into a corner with this supplemental feeding, and they acknowledged that without these feed grounds, Northwest Wyoming would likely support fewer elk, and the distribution of those elk would would shift substantially, they'd go other places. But again, like researchers have been warning about this because on these feed lots, elk feed nose to nose. 01:29:35 Speaker 9: Could yeah, got it up. 01:29:37 Speaker 6: They feed nose to nose along feed lines, and they're they're concentrated like unnaturally and unnaturally dense concentrations during the winter. Additionally, these the prions from CWD they accumulate, and the soil and elk are repeatedly using the same contaminated grounds you're after year. 01:30:01 Speaker 1: So the guy that invented the word says Prions. 01:30:07 Speaker 9: Okay, that's good enough for me, told me man more Heffelfinger. 01:30:13 Speaker 6: So in May of this year, wildlife officials like confirmed the first known CWD positive elk on the National Elk Refuge. It was an adult cow that was euthanized. CWD had been detected in the broader like Jackson area surrounding the refuge in twenty twenty, but this was the first time it was detected like on the actual elk refuge. On other Wyoming feed grounds there's twenty one of them, but Scab Creek, Dell Creek, Horse Creek, Black Butte, Muddy Creek. Cwd's been detected on all of those feed grounds within the last. 01:30:57 Speaker 9: Couple of years. 01:31:01 Speaker 6: So, like what, You've got a situation where it's like pretty obvious that concentrating these elk in small areas, a bunch of them over the winter and feeding them supplementally, like artificially feeding them is causing a problem with CWD. 01:31:17 Speaker 2: Well, you you don't know that because you have CWD. 01:31:21 Speaker 1: Like Montana doesn't do feed. Montana doesn't allow. 01:31:24 Speaker 2: Bait, right, you can't bait in the state, and the state doesn't feed. But state's got CWD popping up all over the place. Okay, So I'm just saying it's like you, you can't say that the only place that it's occurring. 01:31:41 Speaker 9: I didn't say it's the only place. 01:31:42 Speaker 1: And I'll be saying it's leading to problems. We don't know, you don't really know. 01:31:45 Speaker 2: You can you can guess, But where is it coming from and all the other places? 01:31:49 Speaker 7: Oh well, I think the safest gas, right, Like, we can throw the origin out if it's here now and this continues, Yes, this is going to be a breeding situation for the spread of CWT. 01:32:02 Speaker 1: I would expect to see. 01:32:03 Speaker 2: Yes, I agree with you there, I would expect to see a higher rate of transmission. But I'm saying, like, I don't think it's birthing. It's not birthing the disease. 01:32:15 Speaker 9: It's not, But it's contributed. 01:32:16 Speaker 6: It's likely going to contribute to the spread of the disease at a much faster rate that they're worried about, more persistent environmental contamination, so in the soil and vegetation things like that. They certainly think it's going to cause higher term higher long term infection rates could lead to increased mortality and long term population declines. 01:32:39 Speaker 9: In some some elk herds. 01:32:42 Speaker 7: Plus it's got close proximity to high fence operations. They have terrible records of keeping animals within the high fence. 01:32:49 Speaker 6: So like there's been Wyoming is not going to close these feed lots. 01:32:54 Speaker 9: They're just not going to do it. 01:32:57 Speaker 6: Why because pened in thirty years they need to They're they're kind of in a situation where they need to maintain these elk numbers, right, there's an expectation for it. So the plan is expanded surveillance and testing, having hunters turn in more animals, increase monitoring things like that. 01:33:19 Speaker 1: Okay, so then you just know, okay, yeah, they're. 01:33:23 Speaker 6: Just like I'm just telling you that's their plan. 01:33:27 Speaker 2: That's not that's just like being like hey, uh you know, it'd be like, hey, you know my kids dying of a fever. 01:33:33 Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm gonna keep taking this temperature. Sure, just eradicate them, keep taking this temp. 01:33:39 Speaker 7: Or the states known that this was like an inevitable situation forever, and so it's like what did the state? Has there been any. 01:33:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you're going to keep taking his temp. But are you bringing them to the doctor? 01:33:52 Speaker 5: Right? 01:33:52 Speaker 1: No, it's monitoring temp yeah. 01:33:54 Speaker 9: I mean they don't have an answer. 01:33:56 Speaker 6: Their their their answer is to maintain feeding operations and do what they can to slow disease transmission, whatever that means. 01:34:05 Speaker 7: And so long as we don't feed it. 01:34:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like they're gonna put up a sign please elk. Yeah, don't go super close to each other while eating the food we put out for you. 01:34:17 Speaker 1: I listen. I just want to clarify. I totally coming at me pretty hard. 01:34:21 Speaker 8: Yeah, I was hoping you'd have a better plan. 01:34:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not coming at you. I don't know the answer. I don't know that the answer is to stop doing it. It's just I don't know. I seem like I'm like, I want to clarify. I'm just a curious guy sitting Yeah. 01:34:36 Speaker 1: I don't know the right answer, I think, and. 01:34:39 Speaker 6: From my perspective, the answer would be to maybe slowly wean them off of this situation. They starve to. 01:34:44 Speaker 3: Death if they just quit feeding them. 01:34:46 Speaker 5: Some would, some would for sure. 01:34:47 Speaker 6: I mean, you've got like an unnaturally high concentration of animals. 01:34:52 Speaker 2: It'd be like if we quit making GMOs, you're gonna have tons of humans starved to death. 01:34:57 Speaker 1: Eventually, you won't need a man think about. 01:34:58 Speaker 6: A severe winter where there would be natural winter kill like around here. Down there, they're like loving life, it doesn't matter how severe the winner. 01:35:08 Speaker 3: Is has some images here that are very real, but they look like photoshop because it's just such a ridiculous amount of help in one space. 01:35:17 Speaker 6: There have been efforts, lawsuits to try and get these feed lots. 01:35:22 Speaker 9: Closed, but they've failed. 01:35:25 Speaker 1: So you know, when I come from hunters, does it come from animal rights people? 01:35:30 Speaker 6: You know, I think it's more along the animal rights end of things, but I'd have to look into it. 01:35:35 Speaker 7: No, I mean on this disease thing, like because Idaho feeds on occasion and in certain areas, and they have different they have feeding programs that that started when elk from Yellowstone and Jackson Hole were brought to Idaho to re establish herds that are that are still going. They're arguing meant those like this polls elk on their migration route away from like population centers and avoids some human conflicts. So it's not just purely the food aspect. It's it's like manipulating where animals go in the winter. 01:36:17 Speaker 6: Sure that helps to prevent conflicts with ranching operations, but. 01:36:24 Speaker 7: I mean, hunters have been saying this is going to bring disease to the herd. 01:36:30 Speaker 6: Some hunters, but for a lot I think there's also I mean, say to Wyoming says it too. It's like we're sustaining these large elk populations and that sustains great hunting opportunity for sure. 01:36:42 Speaker 2: But do you want a lot of burger that you're paranoid about or less burger that you're not paranoid? 01:36:49 Speaker 7: But there is an unbelievable amount of elk in that country. 01:36:53 Speaker 5: It is wild. 01:36:54 Speaker 6: Yeah, So that's where we're not during It was bound to happen and it did, is basically where we're at. 01:37:01 Speaker 1: Thank you, Brody. 01:37:01 Speaker 5: Yep, Thanks Brody. 01:37:04 Speaker 8: Back on Randall's weekly Bad Stuff Happening public Lands Beat today, we were going to talk about the rescinding of the public Lands Rule. Then we moved on to certified public Lands Transfer guy confirmed as BLM director. Then we're going to talk about the House bill to repeal the Roadless Rule, which goes to committee on Thursday. But we've got another bad idea to cover, and this one is a bill. It's a proposed bill that's originating in Republican Senator Bill Castey's office to transfer roughly twenty four percent of the Kisachie National Forest to Louisiana's Grant Parish, which is louisiana equivalent of a county. Specifically, the land would go to the local school board and the Police Jury, which again there's all kinds of different names in Louisiana for things, but that's basically the county commissioners and the Police Jury, to their credit, immediately voiced its opposition to the bill because they saw how deeply unpopular it was. Again, this is just a draft bill as far as I know, it hasn't been introduced, and I always think that's important when you're talking about legislation to look at where it is because you'll see, you know, you'll read headlines that say, like the Democrats and whatever want to ban pants, or the Republicans want to do this, but it's oftentimes just some whack job who's written a bill in their office and has no you know, chance of passing. So just that disclaimer out there. But the bill, this bill would amend. 01:38:41 Speaker 2: I do, I do love a bill to ban pants, just to see how just I love that bill. 01:38:46 Speaker 8: Yeah, and then you can go back, you can go back to your wackadoo donors and tell them, you know, I'm fighting the fight against pants. 01:38:53 Speaker 5: Right. 01:38:54 Speaker 8: But this, this bill would amend the Internal Revenue Club. 01:39:01 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:39:01 Speaker 8: I wasn't even thinking about like alternatives. This would build and support alternative lower half of your body garments. 01:39:08 Speaker 1: I was thinking of just yeah. But no, that's why. 01:39:12 Speaker 8: It's important to have like a very careful legislative staff. But this would this would direct it would amend the Internal Revenue Code of nineteen eighty six and direct the Secretary of Agriculture to forfeit all rights, title and interest to all portions of the Kassachi National Force contained within the borders of Grant Parish, which is about one hundred and forty thousand acres of public lands. 01:39:35 Speaker 1: Uh. 01:39:35 Speaker 8: This so the bill would just say that goes to the county. They would also get the buildings, the vehicles, the equipments, and all. 01:39:43 Speaker 1: The records of the Forest Service. 01:39:45 Speaker 8: The the I guess the justification for this is that Bill Casty claims that this is the National Force is hindering economic development in Grant Parish, but. 01:39:57 Speaker 1: He just got his nut slap by Trump so bad he did he. 01:40:00 Speaker 8: Did, so I think this I think this hit the headlines like the day after. 01:40:04 Speaker 1: That's why everybody knows who he is now. 01:40:07 Speaker 6: So his logic behind this is economic development. 01:40:11 Speaker 1: Yes for that land. 01:40:12 Speaker 8: Yes yes, And and hat tip to the Louisiana Wildlife Federation kind of rang the alarm about this, And then I saw the story from Travis Hall at Field and Streby does a great job of covering all kinds of public land stuff. But the Louisiana Wildlife Federation issued a statement. I mean, one thing that they point to that's interesting is they're tucking this public land transfer into a big tax and economic development bill. And so the Louisiana Wildlife Federation is pointing, like, what you're doing here is reducing the visibility of public lands policy decision making by tucking it into this other you know, like like. 01:40:52 Speaker 2: Burying the pants ban, like in the pants ban and some complex things. So some guy one day realizes in the bottom of it it says, oh, no, no more pain. 01:41:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, no more pants, no more pants. 01:41:02 Speaker 8: So you know, you got to read these things carefully. But they they have raised the rang the alarm, raised the red flag over this. I don't necessarily know where this is going, if at all, because it's a. 01:41:16 Speaker 1: Very very early stage. 01:41:18 Speaker 8: But again it's just like, man, these like there are people out there who want to do this stuff. It's not a boogey man, it's not a it's not a you know, far off like there's people hidden away in back rooms who are never actually going to do this stuff. Like his office is working on this and this as far as I understand just from reading about it, like this seems like a treasure of our public land system. It was clear cut and then established in the nineteen thirties under the Weeks Act, where we get a lot of our eastern National Forests and it's it's got a lot of. 01:41:55 Speaker 1: Long leaf pine, a lot of wildlife. There's there's fishing, hunting, camping. 01:42:01 Speaker 8: It's like a prime recreation destination in the central part of the state. 01:42:05 Speaker 3: When the US Mints did a quarter dedicated to the Kasachi National Forest, all they put on there is a wild turkey. 01:42:11 Speaker 9: Yeah, I brought that. 01:42:12 Speaker 1: Quarter in. 01:42:14 Speaker 6: If this is one of the still got. 01:42:17 Speaker 7: It Louisiana where you know how you can never kill white tails on public land Louisiana. 01:42:24 Speaker 1: No, I don't know that. 01:42:25 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, people talk about. 01:42:28 Speaker 8: And from what I read briefly it's like known for big Deer, it's known for big Bucks. 01:42:33 Speaker 6: Does Cassidy have a history of. 01:42:37 Speaker 8: Not that I know of, Not that I know of. It's it seems like it's kind of out of left field. I mean, he's really known as I believe he's a physician, and so he's really a lot of his controversy lately has been his relationship with like RFK. Voted to confirm RFK, and then he's come out against a lot of the stuff that's happening over there. 01:42:57 Speaker 2: But I appreciate the I appreciate his Maverick nonpartisan streak. I appreciate it, the kind of going your own way and not taking, not taking, you know, not listening to the boss man for everything you do. 01:43:10 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. But this is dumb. Yeah, and he knows it's dumb. 01:43:13 Speaker 8: And it's and a lot of the guys who are demonstrating this nonpartisan not bowing to the boss behavior the ones that are on their primary So a big picture, like you know, we have the Forest Service overhaul, they're going to be closing research stations in Louisiana. The roadless rule, as I said, is there's now a House bill to. 01:43:35 Speaker 1: Rescind it. 01:43:37 Speaker 7: So not only rescind it, but make it mandatory that we the people, the taxpayer, pay for new roads. 01:43:43 Speaker 5: Yep. 01:43:44 Speaker 8: Yeah, so just there's there's arrows coming at the National Forest from all sides right now. 01:43:51 Speaker 4: One of the last things I did last night, I was Broby ten pm, I called Zinky and Downing left the message about that nice because I received get another email from BH. I was like, all right, I'm doing it. 01:44:06 Speaker 1: You shouldn't be your phone lady. It's bad for your sleep. Okay. 01:44:11 Speaker 6: I don't understand what his incentive is to do anything now, Like you know. 01:44:16 Speaker 2: No, I think this will yeah, this will go away, so fun to talk about. So we can do a good news story when he when it doesn't go anywhere. 01:44:24 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. 01:44:26 Speaker 4: Okay, reporting from the Michigan uh deer desk. We're really bouncing around the country today. 01:44:32 Speaker 1: That's intentional good. It's a programming decision. 01:44:37 Speaker 4: This one, I figure is gonna be a real challenge because you and I have so much attachment nostalgia to the story that uh not me. 01:44:48 Speaker 1: I grew up north of the Lion, dude. 01:44:51 Speaker 4: I know exactly, which is why I feel like you're gonna have to weigh. 01:44:54 Speaker 5: In your side. 01:44:57 Speaker 4: So big news out of Michigan. It's beca coming a one buck state and has a limited eliminated their southern shotguns zone, meaning the entire state is now open to rifle used for deer hunting. So for those that you don't know, you can throw up our little map there and uh this I took this from on ex Thanks guys, but h zone one there is the upper Peninsula, and you could use a rifle up there. When I was a kid. In the lower Peninsula, you can use a rifle above that line that cut cuts through the middle where Steve was. Below that line, we had to use shotguns. Reason being when I when I grew up. The reason being for that, they always told us, is because it's a highly more highly populated area. And if you had a real rifle, high powered rifle, and you're shooting a deer, you're more likely to shoot out of the woods across the county road and into some school. 01:45:52 Speaker 9: We got the same rule right here in the valley. 01:45:53 Speaker 1: They put a hole through old Lady Burns's house or something. 01:45:56 Speaker 5: You know. 01:45:57 Speaker 4: Yeah, I asked, uh, Brent Rudolph, who's Michigan's deer elk and mooseman specialist moment. 01:46:05 Speaker 1: Their deer specialist is named Rudolph. 01:46:07 Speaker 4: I know I didn't bring that up with him, but yeah, a hard time not bringing that up. 01:46:12 Speaker 1: But I didn't want to take too much of his I didn't bring it up. Uh huh. 01:46:20 Speaker 7: He always know, you know, when he has a good idea. 01:46:26 Speaker 3: Better name than half a finger ouch ouch ouch. 01:46:34 Speaker 5: Not only. 01:46:36 Speaker 4: Uh, what was it for the safety thing? But that rule was implemented back when we didn't have as many deer. 01:46:42 Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that that was part of the motivation. 01:46:45 Speaker 4: Yeah, So part of the motivation was like, hey, so that every deer that comes out on the you know, back crop field doesn't get whacked, let's limit weapons a little bit so that you're back then we were limited to fifty yards. Now shotgun shoot two hundred yards. 01:47:01 Speaker 1: Well, they went straight wall cart right, and. 01:47:03 Speaker 4: So recently and a few years ago, Michigan, along with other states too, allowed straight walled cartridges. Was just like inching towards going to high power. But not quite Again, Brent told me, he's like, yeah, we actually don't have data that proves that using high powered rifle cartridges is any less safe than using the shotguns. 01:47:28 Speaker 1: So as a move to but it's kind of like, you know, like Bob Dylan said, I. 01:47:34 Speaker 2: Don't need a weatherman to tell away the wind blows, meaning you might not have data. 01:47:40 Speaker 1: But come on. 01:47:41 Speaker 6: Plus, I think you can also make rules like come on to keep the people that aren't hunters like to kind of passify them be like. 01:47:49 Speaker 2: But of course it does because imagine the extreme. Imagine he made an infinity an infinity round. It just went around the world and around the world and around the world. 01:47:58 Speaker 1: It's going to hit something. Yeah, I don't think it'd make it around the world once. No, I think I hit something. 01:48:05 Speaker 2: Well. 01:48:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, So back then they didn't want to kill uh people or too many deer. Now Michigan is we've covered this. I think it was it last year or two years ago that they wrote a letter to Michigan's sports people and said, folks, you guys have to kill dose. They didn't do it. So this is a step towards making it easier. They're hoping it's small, incremental, but a way to like less barriers. Right, you don't have to have another you know, a shotgun to shoot slugs to shoot a deer, right, you just have your thirty six because you hunt somewhere where you can use that. 01:48:47 Speaker 6: All those people are gonna have to go buy rifles now. 01:48:50 Speaker 2: I got I got a text message from guys walk the other morning. He said he's getting out the old thirty thirty six and he says, you've never seen a run on. 01:49:00 Speaker 5: Animal like you see, that's amazing. 01:49:05 Speaker 1: He's right, he's right. 01:49:08 Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that that's it's a good thing. It's like simplifying the whole thing. 01:49:13 Speaker 1: I support it. I support it. Yeah. 01:49:16 Speaker 2: But what's funny about it is because I always thought it was a safety issue, and it's not like there's less houses now. 01:49:21 Speaker 1: Than when I was a kid. Definitely not so. 01:49:23 Speaker 2: But hearing that it was an efficacy issue as well, trying to reduce efficacy, I see. But I also think that it felt unnecessary. 01:49:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a big thing for me when we used to then go over to hunt, Wisconsin, when I used to actually get to hunt with a bolt action rifle, It's like, it was very exciting. 01:49:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's why we drove to Kentucky. 01:49:47 Speaker 4: Right, because you guys were a shotgun state. Yeah, Ohio is going to come back into my reporting here shortly for the second part. Lovely, So, if you guys don't have any further questions about being able to use a rifle across the state of miss I'll move on. 01:50:00 Speaker 2: No, if you're in southern here's the If you're in southern Michigan, it's game on this fall. They could be way across Old Lady Burns his field and you can still shoot. 01:50:08 Speaker 1: I'd like to move forward to the part about Ohio. 01:50:10 Speaker 7: Well, I think valid info here too. Just it's not particular to this, but it is in the context of Michigan. Michigan is one of the states where big game hunting is on the decline, fewer licensed deer hunters or fewer people hunting deer. 01:50:27 Speaker 3: I would like to know how Mit Trumpaula feels about this. 01:50:30 Speaker 1: Is he not going to tell you? 01:50:31 Speaker 3: Is he zoned two or zone three? 01:50:33 Speaker 1: He's zoned two? Hes zoned two? You know what I heard? I heard a rumor there. Now I want to. 01:50:37 Speaker 5: Just I'll say it. 01:50:40 Speaker 1: I'm not trafficking in rumors, dude. Okay, another big change. 01:50:45 Speaker 4: This one's going to go and effect him twenty twenty seven, some folks thought it was going to go in effect this year, it's. 01:50:50 Speaker 1: Not the case. 01:50:50 Speaker 4: In twenty to twenty seven, Michigan is going to a one buck uh limit, just. 01:50:58 Speaker 1: Capped one buck one buck? How many bucks are allowed there now? Two? Oh? 01:51:03 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:51:05 Speaker 4: They're offering up two different licenses. This is for the Lower Peninsula the Upper Peninsula. Nothing changes. I didn't write down the details of that, but whatever the rules were up there, they're staying the same. Lower Peninsula though. Now you can buy if you are so cheap that you can only afford a single deer license, you can buy. You can buy one that's a buck only tag and it's for one antler deer with an antler point restriction of three points on one side. The other license that they're offering for the Lower Peninsula is a combo and that's one antler deer of any size and one antlerless deer. They're hoping that this is definitely one hundred percent. Rent said, it's like it helps revenue that they will buy the more expensive combo in the because they want to have that option and to not have to shoot an antler point restricted buck. 01:52:05 Speaker 1: Hmm. 01:52:06 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:52:06 Speaker 4: Again, this came about, Uh, there's there's there was a surge of of the local hunting community. And and again they every people that I talked to, mostly Mark Kenyon and Brent Rudolph, feel like it's a small subset of the hunting community, but like the quality deer management, more people that are into shooting bucks have been like raising a stink about, like hey, like let's change something so you can get a better you know, age class of bucks rolling around in Michigan. And this was proposed other states around like Ohio, UH Indiana. UH was Kentucky one too, remember now, but definitely Ohio and UH Indiana have gone that way and it has helped their their structure point restriction right, so they went Antler point restrictions. I don't know they had one buck state too. Yeah, And so saying there, man Mark was telling me that they're that guy that started in with the Antler point restrictions. Like that guy had to get out of wildlife management. 01:53:12 Speaker 1: We were trying to get him on the show, but I don't know what happened to him. 01:53:14 Speaker 9: He was a professor at Penn State. 01:53:16 Speaker 1: When I was here, we were trying to get on the show. 01:53:18 Speaker 4: The threats and everything was Gary Gary Gary Selena Zito recommended recommended. 01:53:24 Speaker 5: His relative works for wild cheap founders. 01:53:26 Speaker 9: But he likened things around in Pennsylvania. 01:53:28 Speaker 1: Oh big time. 01:53:29 Speaker 4: I think now he's like he's he's they applaud his work and his ideas. 01:53:34 Speaker 1: Garyl Yeah, what what do you say he didn't want to do. 01:53:40 Speaker 5: Just a little bit later, I think he may have been for Gary. 01:53:45 Speaker 6: He may have ended up working in the state of Wisconsin after. 01:53:49 Speaker 1: Oh okay, I think you don't. 01:53:51 Speaker 5: Think so whole job is that? 01:53:53 Speaker 1: No, Well, here's the deal. 01:53:55 Speaker 4: It's like why, uh you asked why? Like why the Michigan DNR really care about that? 01:54:03 Speaker 1: Right? 01:54:03 Speaker 4: Like that's not necessarily So they have a small group of people that are like, hey, we want you know, better bucks, and like we all know those. These wildlife agencies have to not only manage the wildlife, but they have to manage the people that enjoy the wildlife in the In the name of managing the wildlife, dn R wants Michigan hunters to shoot dose bad So again, this is a way they're hoping that like the guys that used to just shoot the first buck that they saw are now and and then hold out for like the big buck and never shoot a dough. Now they're hoping that if you're in the field, you only have one buck tag and you like to shoot deer, you like to have a couple of deer in the freezer. That's gonna this is going to hopefully promote antler lists harvest. 01:54:53 Speaker 1: I don't buy it. 01:54:54 Speaker 6: I don't. 01:54:56 Speaker 1: Yeah again, they don't. 01:54:59 Speaker 4: Everybody, everybod He's clear that if it's anything, it's going to be incremental. The last thing I will leave you with. And this is interesting because I hadn't really thought about this, and Brent said this is that if they don't Michigan's hunters don't start killing those, hunting as a management tool might become archaic and something else. They will find another way to manage this deer population if it can't be done through hunters understood. 01:55:29 Speaker 5: So it's like a. 01:55:30 Speaker 4: Real It's just I think it's a serially serious call out to all hunters around that like. 01:55:36 Speaker 1: Some some industry is going to come in and be like, we'll take it from here, boys. Yeah. 01:55:40 Speaker 4: Yeah, And then the anti can use it as like, hey, you guys weren't doing your job that you guys always said you're going to do. You guys are always you know, talking about being you know, balance of nature exactly, and. 01:55:50 Speaker 7: All that I'd be I'd use it as an incentive. Just have the ability to be like, this is going to be nothing but brought worst, like bang dough off to the processor, brought worst. This thing is gonna be nothing but sandwich meat. 01:56:09 Speaker 5: Here we go. 01:56:10 Speaker 2: You know what I do if I wanted to increase harvest is I have like those you know, little sausage making kits, the dry seasoning kit that comes staple to. 01:56:18 Speaker 1: Your deer tab. 01:56:21 Speaker 2: So when you're sitting there and you're blind, you just got your hand in your pocket, you're feeling that broad seasoning. 01:56:26 Speaker 6: You just gotta wonder why they don't why that earn a buck. 01:56:29 Speaker 1: Thing deeply unpopular, I know, but they're actually. 01:56:36 Speaker 4: They're they're doing a test in a certain part of the Southern Peninsula where there it's going to be an earn a buck for a second buck tag. 01:56:43 Speaker 2: Wisconsin got into earn a buck and it proved unpopular with with. 01:56:49 Speaker 1: You know, not everybody, but it was unpopular with the masses. Yeah, the masses. 01:56:55 Speaker 7: There's a lot of economic drivers, right Like most people are making it out for a weekend at at most, and could this incentivize people to go out and get a dough one weekend and then try to find a buck another weekend, and they're spending more money around the counties. Yeah, it's just surprising to me because in our my camp where I grew up hunting in Michigan, like we pounded does and so to know that. 01:57:23 Speaker 1: About getting a dough. Take, Yeah, so the only jeers you've got a dog on. 01:57:27 Speaker 7: Twenty percent of. 01:57:28 Speaker 1: Michigan hunters will kill a dough. It's like, who are these guys? 01:57:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was cooked as day as long. But we didn't know about that kind of thing at the time. You know, everybody to put their mom in for a dough. 01:57:39 Speaker 6: Oh, yes, the thing in Pennsylvania here. 01:57:41 Speaker 2: I got a dough tag, won't be my mom. 01:57:45 Speaker 7: I guided some Michigan hunters for black Bear in Idaho spring black Beard jillion years ago, and they were mule ear does running across the road and they were like yanking on the door handles, being like, can't meet, can't meet, And I couldn't. I was, you know, I was like it's spring and I'm like I couldn't quite there. Well, you know, can't meet. It's like you just shoot a dove to have a camp Oh. 01:58:14 Speaker 1: Man, you talk about that. You go to your camp first and you do a shoot a dope like pre like a preseason. 01:58:20 Speaker 7: Just to get things started the right way. 01:58:23 Speaker 2: Oh everybody, please subscribe to the Meat Eater podcast YouTube channel. Okay if you want more news and subscribe to our show. Wherever you listen to podcasts, that way pops right up and you turn your phone on. 01:58:37 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.