00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today, we're kind of switching gears, going full board into elk from here on out. Just finished up a few turkey hunts, just got back from Idaho on a spring bear hunt where we had some success, and so we're ready to kind of dive headfirst into elk. And this last weekend I was able to do a elk calling seminar for some veterans here in my home state of Washington, and there was some great conversations, some great questions asked, and so I figured I would dive a little deeper into some of the things that we talk about regularly, but maybe, you know, elaborate, go a little deeper on them and see if we can't answer some questions there. But do a little recap on the Idaho bear hunt. Was able to go over there. My buddy Tyson had a tag and was able to be the cameraman. Again. I remembered how to turn the camera on and run it after a little bit of time, but yeah, he was able to finally kill a good boar. On day six of what was a six day hunt. We seen twenty six bears and the country just laid out not ideal for killing bears, but great for spotting bears. So you could spot bears all day long from a mile two miles away. Going over there to kill them or be close enough for a good shot was more difficult. And the few times when we zoned in or honed in on the highest density areas, we would seemed like always spot a bear on the other side from where we were just glassing from, decided to make a run over there. They wouldn't be there. We would glass back where we were just sitting there to be bears out there, and then we would sit bears wouldn't show up. But finally, on the last night we had spotted the bear that Tyson killed the night before, went over there and just forced ourselves to stay put, and that bear came out out. He was on a mission to go check out us south that had a cub down below us that we've been watching for five to ten minutes, and he was able to make a great shot at a one hundred and fifteen yards and just you know, close tight bear hunting is fun, you know, had to get the wind right the way we came into that area, had to get the wind right, and it worked out great one thing I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a little tangent. And we had a social post this last week. You know, as we're driving in this area, you have a somebody had nailed their own sign to one of the speed limit signs area and said hunt your own state. And it created a lot of a lot of back and forth. Some people were pissed, you know from Idaho. Some people were in support of it. And these are just gonna kind of be my ramblings on it. I always just wonder like where that comes from. I know people could get frustrated. It is their backyard. They may feel I don't want to say entitled, but they may they do have more ownership of the area, the you know, maintain the road all of that. But I always just kind of scratched my head. We were there on a spring bear hunt. Yes, we love hunting for what it is. We love to help with predators where we can. In the week we were there traveling all over, side by side, truck, whatever it may be. We saw three other bear hunters the entire time that we identified as bear hunters that were like in Baar Country there were still Turkey seasons going on and people hunting, and you know, it was prior to Memorial Day weekend, so there were a lot of people out on the weekend camping and you know, but it was typically like young kids and dads and moms just enjoying you know, the public ground, zipping around on side by sides or whatever. So be it. But we saw three other bear hunters and they were also all from Washington, and so it was like, Number one, we're over there. In my opinion, like, yeah, we get the bear hunt. We love to do it. We would do it if it was in Washington, Idaho, wherever. But we're going over there to help kill predators, killing you know, trophy bowls, trophy deer, you know, whatever it is. We're over there to help with the predator problem that's not even in our own state. Number one and number two, it's like we're we're I guess there's a lot more than number two, but we're up there, you know, hunting bears. We're taking care of the ground. We we picked up after many of these camps that we saw, you know, whether it was just you know, water bottles or trash rappers or whatever is. We're out and about. We take care of the land, and well we do. We got to talk to to you know, some a local and you know, he had nothing but good information to share and we got along great. And that's the thing like these people that put up the sign, I'm sure if we could sit down and talk and you know, have the same amount of respect for each other, and if you're hunting area, I'll leave. And if we can talk before and if you're going to be there, you know, what's your plan, we'll come up with a plan. B It's just I just I always just kind of scratch my head. We're only allotted ten percent of the overall tags anyways, so it's not like unless that ten percent can overwhelm a unit, which I don't believe it can. I mean, I guess if everybody ended up in the same exact spot that you wanted to hunt, it could, But we're we're only given a certain amount of tags that I do remind you costs ten times as much as what you're paying as a resident to help fund the last time I checked sixty percent of your fishing game. I just I've always felt like I'm respectful of of who's there, who is a resident, who isn't and it's just it always just kind of I don't know. I would like to just talk to those people and be able to like, what do you what are you really getting at? Is? Are you struggling to find success? Is that why you're frustrated? Are you know? Some people say, I know Dirk has mentioned multiple times, well, you know, guys from Washington over and shoot a bunch of two and a half year old bucks. That is where it kind of struggles. You know, what's what's what's legal, what's not, and then trying to judge that, yes, I go over there with certain you know, I'm trying to get something, you know, specific out of a hunt, and whether that's killing a mature animal or something of a certain caliber of a certain age class, that's gonna be tough to monitor and hopefully you know that almost falls back on on the biologists in the area. The the amount of tags given overall, and once again even on deer and oak tags you only allowed ten percent is uh is one of those things where you know, you it's going to be tough to to manage that through whatever is legal, you know, if there's a horn, you know, a point restriction or or whatnot. And then the amount of tags given out. And I would venture to say it's not just out of state hunters that are, you know, killing immature bucks. Uh. You know, me and me and Dirk going we have a little battle of like back and forth, like, well, hey, did you see the residents that just killed and and And I don't get caught up in that too much. Yeah, it could have. It could affect, you know, the age class in an area. But I just I think it's happening on both sides, and good and bad people can be on both sides, you know. And in the comments of this, it was, you know, well I had a non resident. I was sneaking in on a bear. I was five hundred yards away, waiting for a better shot, and somebody shot eight hundred yards away at the bear that I was. I'm like, but that doesn't necessarily that's not because they were non resident. You could have just as easily had a resident that thought that they were capable of shooting that far or do the same thing, And so I don't necessarily. My closing thought on this is it's not necessarily non resident versus resident. It's good people versus bad people, or ethical hunters versus non ethical regardless of what states. There's good apples, you know, so to speak, no pun intended on people from Washington. There's good apples and there's bad apples. Right from every state. There's people that are going to push the issue, be overly aggressive, not being willing to talk to other hunters, not be able to work together. No, No, that's not saying I'm not gonna maybe fifty of what I'm actually saying, but I'm not gonna like lead you astray or tell you I'm going into area that you that you might want to go into because I want to go in there tomorrow or the next day. Like, there's just good people from every state, and there's bad people from every state. And it's like, I just I don't like the idea of if I had my kid with me, Like, well, what go hunt your own state. I'm like, well, I do when I can, but I also love to hunt other states. And you know, getting all getting all soft and mushy in my old age. I'm to the point where, yeah, I love hunting animals, I love hunting good units. But man, it is awesome to be able to hunt my home state of Washington. It's absolutely beautiful here especially when you get into the cascades and some of the rainforest areas. I love being able to see that. I love also being able to go to Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, wherever it is, and just enjoy the same public ground that you guys get to enjoy, that you guys have taken care of, that you guys have made you know that you guys are somewhat stewards of And then when I go there, I hope to be a good steward of the property, take care of it as well or better than you do, and just get to enjoy the animals in the in the country that's there. And so that's man, I know, it's everybody beats that drum, you know in fighting residents versus non residents. Like man, we all we all love to do the same thing, and if we could all sit down and chat about it, I'm sure we would all, you know, see eye to eye. Albeit you know, you may want more of your your backyard to yourself, it is, it is public land. And so that's that's my rambling. I'm gonna get back to these these elk questions that kind of were spurred from from that seminar I did the other night. So Number one, we started to kind of dig at scouting habits and what's my go to strategy for locating elk and unfamiliar country? You know, how do I go about breaking down new train and what do I look like? What do I look for while I'm scouting? So, as I'm recording this, it's early June. If I was to go scout, you know, the weather starting to get better some of these areas that I hunt, as the snow is finally melting. We're finally starting to get access to some of these higher areas. But maybe the elk haven't moved in there, or they're not where they're going to be when the rut gets here. So what would I look for now if I'm going out scouting. Yeah, I will always look for the animals. But what I like to do is if I'm scouting, let's say a spot in western Washington where we don't necessarily have any sort of migration, the elk are local all the time, they are where they are, I can now start to put a little more credibility into where the elk are at. Like that may translate more to hunting season in September, I can start to see where scouts at, where tracks are at, where trails are at now, Versus if I'm in a mountainous region where these elk do have to migrate down and migrate back up, I may not care where I see elk at the beginning of June. They may continue to move for the next month month and a half as a snow line allows them to move up, or the food you know their foods, or changes from a lower elevation to a high elevation, and maybe if we have really dry summer, they may be pushed back down. So I'm really I'm really not looking for like what I would consider live elk sign you know, scat fresh scat, real elk fresh tracks, those sort of things this time of year to help me as an archery elk hunter, I'm starting to look for where the rubs. Do we have rubs in an area? Can I identify this as like a betting area? Is this are these rubs that you know are a transition from good food to a betting area? Like why are the elk rubbing here? And you know you're looking for concentrated areas of rubs. I'm not looking for that one or two you know, single or double rub here or there or along the trail. I'm trying to find out where like and you know, bowls at that time of the year are spending a lot of time, so I'm I'm looking for that, uh is you know, if if trail cams are legal in your state or you can hang them, I start to hang them on good food sources, water sources. You know, we used to be able to bait and I don't even I don't even know the legality assault. I'd have to look at that like we used to put out salt to to you know, is they need that mineral, you know, to to gain more pictures in an area. A lot of people want to see the bulls on their camera in an area, and you can do that, but I will advise also as you're scouting now, as it translates into September, those bulls will likely leave and go towards the cows. So I would just assume have cows on my trail camera and not as many bulls. Now. It doesn't do me a lot of good if I'm after something specific, but it gives me a good idea probably where those the bowl the cows and the herd is going to hang out is the location where I've got cows on my camera. You know, this isn't this isn't a true a rule by any means, but it's you know, the bulls are going to go ninety percent of the way, the cows are going to go ten percent away. Where they're going to end up are looking for a primary food sources time of year without the requirement of trying to keep calves protected, So the bulls can be in spots that would be more vulnerable to predators because they're not going to be you know, targeted as much. Now, cows this time of year, as they break off, go single, try to you know, rear their they're young, get that calf to two to three weeks old. They're gonna break off, and they're gonna be in areas that are more conducive to raising their young, making sure that the young calf doesn't get you know, eight on by a bear, cougar or whatnot, so that that's some separate, you know, some differences between the two. And then they will ultimately as those calves get older more into the summer, they will start to move into that best feed where that's available that she can still continue to raise those young calves. But yeah, that's that's my big thing on scouting, you know, as I as I pre scout, kind of before I go check out an area or an area, I want to I'm looking for three things on whatever, you know, I use on X a lot, I use Google Earth. I'm looking for areas that have feed. I'm looking for areas that have cover, and I'm looking for areas that have water covers for escapement and for bedding. Obviously you have to have good feed, and then elk have to go, you know, be it water you know daily, if not daily, every other day. Some nomadic elk and some desert regions, uh, you know, have kind of been able to make it a little bit longer. But you need those three things and then to get to get like a higher priority so you can have those three things. But then ideally I'm looking for benches. Elk would prefer to, you know, bed on something that's a little flatter, maybe a bench, maybe a not as steep a country. So if I can find some relief in the terrain, you know, if the thing is straight up and down, but there's like a little milder you know slope or a milder notch or a little bit of a bench. I want to go look at those to see if that's what the elk are using. I want to have those in there. I want to have I also like a good mix. I don't want wide open sage. I don't want solid timber. I don't want I want something with like a few avalanche shoots. If I'm in the high country, I want a few you know, subalpine or alpine type meadows. I want some timber, and then as you get down in the draw, I want it to be timbered, and then in the middle, I want it to be like a mix. I love those fringe areas, and those fringe areas allow those elk to feed throughout the whole day. If needed, they can feed with a little more security, they can bed with a little bit more visibility. All of these things, and ideally, if you can like have the ultimate spot, I want some you know, some wallows, some hanging some hanging water up on the slope, or some springs in the area. That way they have is every the tighter you can get all of those required things to cover the food and the water together. The the the higher it is on it ranks higher on where I think I'll find out with more surety. So those are kind of the things I look at before I jump into an area. And I've did it long enough that I've been able to put boots on the ground and typically know that they're going to be out there. One last thing I do is I get the best imagery I can, and I will zoom in. Are there trails, Are there trails that look like they're made by you know, one or two bucks feeding, or are they you know, trails from you know, herds of Elk? Are there historic trails in here? I will sit and mess with the date on on X, and I will go to September. I will go, you know, just kind of just see what I can see as as the mapping allows. And then one thing that I do is is if I'm scotting a new area, you know a lot of times you're there in July and August and maybe people have hunted there for a long time, and you don't really know what's going to show up in you know, you don't know who's going to be at the trailhead, you don't know who's going to be in the area. Who's going to be at the clear cut? Who's going to be on that road? So if you can back up the picture taking, you know, we're on x's dated pictures. Like I love to go look at a picture in you know, September, maybe go to Labor Day week and how many people are parked here? Are they hunters? Are they? You know? Can you tell? It just gives me an idea. If I show up and there's twenty people parked at the trailhead, I shouldn't have been surprised. Maybe I should have picked a plan B. It's a busy area. You know, maybe they aren't hunters, but maybe I don't want the traffic in that area. So that's kind of like the last little piece of me scouting. So I know really what I'm getting into. I found the Elk and then what my traffic's going to be like up there? Jumping into question number two, how do I adjust my calling or approach based on the bulls behavior? So I've I've mentioned this a lot. You know, there are a lot of guys out there that claim to know Elk language. And if you do this, you need to say that and this is what this bugle means. And this is what this means. I'm not discrediting them. They can use that to their advantage if they feel so, they can teach that. I would argue that my you know, success and my results speak for themselves, and it's it's tougher because I don't necessarily want to brag or get into results or numbers or any of that. I would say, this is the way that I like to hunt. I like to hunt on the bull's temperament or his behavior, and then I respond to that. So, you know, if a bull's being super aggressive and answering every call, I will continue to kind of feed into that. Now, if if I get in, maybe I get a bowl to respond. Let's say he's less aggressive and he doesn't respond at beagle two or three, or I move in tight and I know he's there. I can either hear him, maybe sometimes I can see them and and I we're just not getting a response. I will now treat that bowl like I need to turn the temperature up on him. Sometimes you will not get the temperature to turn up. You're gonna have to just call the bowl in with cow calls. And so that's where my calling kind of changes. If I've got an aggressive bowl, and I know he's aggressive, he's answering everything. I will continue to continue on what I'm doing. I will mimic the bull, I will walk on all of his bugles, and I will I will keep him cranked up, you know, essentially to the arrow. I when I interviewed Brock from BYU on this, they did enough studies, and this is where like all right, the science and nowadays saying trust the science, that doesn't you know, take it for what it's worth. But the biology shows that bulls are built with different temperaments. They're starting to see that bull a may be a lover not a fighter, or or or to a different degree, will be maybe a fighter not a lover. I've always said bulls are out there in september to recreate and survive, and sometimes being able to recreate and hold onto your herd does require you to fight as well. So with that said, if I've got a bull cranked up, I will continue doing what I'm doing. That's that's the easiest scenario. If that bull is answering everything you you you can hear him closing the distance you have had to do anything in particular or different. You've just got him, you've got inside of his bubble, if you got inside of his area, or you're too close to his cows. Those typically are like the ideal situation. Now, if a bull's playing hard to get or he doesn't really seem to want to answer you, or he may answer every four or five, you know, every four or five calls, then I will start to tone it down. And I feel like, by starting with cow calls, it's your least it's your your lowest threat level, So you're you're putting the least amount of pressure on that bowl to either tucktail and leave, grab his cows and leave, or whatnot. So get tight. Even if it is a herd bowl or a satellite bowl, you're gonna want to start with col calls or I will switch to cow calls once I think I'm tight, and then slowly escalate it from there. You know, I'm I'm not huge on small bowl beagles, but I may go col call more into like a raghorn biegle and then kind of throw the kitchen scenk at him. And why I'm doing this, I'm listening. Am I getting any response? Can I hear sticks cracking? Can I hear him raking a tree. Maybe I'll rake a tree before I bogle, so it may be a cal caul and then raking a tree. And you know, we're always trying to make these cookie cookie cutter scenarios, and so it's like in the moment, I may decide to rake a tree or I may not. But raking is also a verbal communication that's maybe a lower threat level. So I like to throw a lot of raking into my calling as well. But yeah, on an aggressive ble, easy, continue to do what you're doing. Passive bowls start at the lowest threat level and slowly, slowly crank it up. You know if if if he's biggling on his own, I feel like you got to get tighter. You got to get inside that bubble. And you know, we'll we'll talk a little bit more about like terrain and vegetation here in a little bit on on ways to move and when you should move, when you should reset up. So question number three, when do you choose the caw call over big or vice versa. So this is this is all answer it. I just kind of went over that on calling elk in. But let's say we're traveling along the trail or a road system. We're gonna walk in and most of the time I'm locating location bugling, and I will let out a locat or bugle every time the road kind of bends out. So every time I'm on let's say I'm on a main ridge, the road's running along it, but every once in a while you got to go around a finger ridge, right, so that puts me kind of out into the drainage. I should have a small drainage to my left and my right as I get to that point, and I'll typically bugle from those. If those are every five hundred yards, I will bugle from there quick two to three high note bugle. I'm listening and I'll do that, you know, every three to five hundred yards. It's not, you know, too much. Some may say it's too much, but it's just kind of enough. And if you sound like an elk, if you got the wind right, there's no real harm that can be done. You know, there's there's nobody heard a truck door slam, nothing's out of the ordinary. It could just be an elk traveling along that trail or along that road trying to Okay to Cow. No big deal. And the reason I like to do that. Sometimes you'll get, you know, the next corner away and a bowl answer back under where you just were. For some reason or another, you didn't hear, you didn't want to respond, you were too close for him to respond. And so that's why I think, you know, biggling at those points is just kind of a good a good good reminder every time you get there, bigle do you get a response? Now? If I'm walking on those roads and I see fresh tracks or I see I smell elk, and I think they're close, and I don't know exactly what I'm working with, I will typically try to locate with a cow call just a typically you know, just your normal meal. Do I get an answer yes or no? And then if I don't, I feel like I've given enough time. Sometimes I'll calm you, you know, two or three times, wait, do it again in five minutes nothing, and then you'll let you know, you let a bigle off. And I'm trying to like trying to decide were the elk here down, you know, upwind of me and I'm smelling them at this location, like where would that put the elk? I'm trying to, you know, figure this all out as I'm sitting there as well, you know, be across the road, and I'm smelling them, and now they're down wind like this, could I need to probably move? But yeah, that's that's how I decide. I don't cow call a lot to locate. But there are times when it's still er quiet, or maybe I've got a timber flat below me. I'm like, I'm not gonna bugle here. I'm just gonna see if I can get them on a cow call to start with. Once again, kind of just going to the lowest threat, there's no harm. If that doesn't work, then I'll go to a bugle. Now why trying to call elk in? If I know it's a satellite bowl, I will typically always go to cal calls and kind of, you know, just throw them at them, you know, keep them coming. We've been fortunate enough to call quite a few bowls, satellite bowls in in you know, burn areas where we can we can see exactly what they're doing as we're calling, and it seems like the more cow calls you throw at them, the faster they come. You know, you stop calling for three or four minutes, they kind of slow down, They're looking around, they are still coming your way. But you go back to cow calls, it's almost like they get excited they're on their way that satellite bowl, especially when you're not talking about like the mature satellite bulls that are maybe challenging herd bulls or other mature satellite bulls for you know, small little harems or able to take cows away like that mid range satellite bowl. You they get pretty excited. You can't overcall. Now if we're talking like mature quote unquote mature satellite bulls. Once we get to watch in the morning that that are really pestering the herd trying to peel a cow or two off, I would probably tend to be agle at those because they're obviously willing to challenge live herd bulls. You can call those in, you know, if they think they're going to come in and have cows and that one that's more of that mixed bag. But you really need to know what you're working with on those, and sometimes you were going to have to make a guestman on whether you were calling to a herd bowl or calling to a satellite bowl. In those instances where they're in the timber and you just can't see him. And I told the story at the seminar the other night. I've killed a handful, you know, or a rafter full of bulls, real small satellite bowls from here in my backyard on the Willow Paul Hills that I thought I was calling to the herd bowl. There was a herd bowl there, but the satellite bowl gets curious or comes in first to what I would consider herd bowll tactics where I'm estrous whining and putting big challenge beagles on that bowl. All of a sudden, you have a satellite bowl come into eight ten yards to check you out. So I've always said, like in my experience, and I've did it over and over, not only for myself but for my buddies and people I've hunted with, you can't really overcall and you're still gonna kill satellite bulls with those herd bull tactics. So question four, what terrain features do I prioritize? Why when elk hunning midday? So you've heard a lot of us, you know, some of you have heard us talk about that midday madness. We kill a lot of bulls in midday, just times, just as many as we do in the morning or in the evening. I actually prefer an evening hunt, especially if I've got to hunt the bowl for what we call hunting them for the next day or for the next you know, the next opportunity. I love being able to hunt a bowl that I've patterned that I feel is uninterrupted. So if a bowl feeds from you know, meadow, a and timber, be a lot of times I will assume that that bowl or that herd is going to reverse what they did. If they're uninterrupted. Obviously there was good feed there. The lead cow likes getting them there. Now with that said, there are many herds that do more of a loop. They will start feeding out the other side of the timber and end up there in the morning. I just happened to catch them there in the morning. So I love hunting elk at night, being able to like have a good idea where I think they're going to end up. But let's go back to midday. So let's say you watch a herd feed. They go from the ideal feed, the meadow, the open, the clear cut, wherever you're at, where your main food sources at, and they will transition from that food to bed at some point, whether they need to do it based on the thermal switching, they need to get back in there under safety, they need, you know, some of these things, pressure, whatever it may be. Those those elk will slowly move from ideal feed to what we call the fringe or the transition into their ultimate bed. I like to I used to put a lot of pressure on them in that transition unless you can get in front of where they want to go an ambush, slash call, or just straight ambush elk. It's it's almost impossible to call elk backwards unless the terrain and vegetation allows you to get so close to them that you can get that bowl to peel off. But elk are creatures of habit. They want to go where they want to go already, they don't want to be turned around by calling. A lot of times with that in the eyes on you and noise, you're not gonna be able to just sneak up on them. So if you can ambush and get ahead of them, that works great, But typically we will let them if we're not in a position they get there very quickly, or if the wind's gonna get crazy in the middle of our approach, I'm just gonna let them get to the bedding and settle down. A lot of time that a lot of times that bowl, if he's bugling, will continue to bogle or will buggle again when he gets to his bed. And then I need to start thinking about how am I going to get there? With where the wind's at right now, with where the wind's gonna be when I get there, and what's the wind you know, where the thermal is going to be. You know, what's the shade is on the north face the south face? Am I gonna have swirling winds in there? How am I going to approach? And typically it involves a lot of work it You know, you're gonna have to drop elevation, gain elevation, but it's the way you're gonna have to get in there to do it right. You know a lot of times I will assume the winds going up after a certain time, depending on how steep the drainage is, and so we will a lot of times just wait for that to fully switch, get fully stable. Now there are days where storm systems are moving in or it's warm, but we know the weather. You know, hey, the weather's gonna switch from you know high pressure in seventies in the middle of day and it's gonna clouds are moving in and it's gonna rain the night. If I'm gonna be if I'm not gonna be able to make my move fast enough, and I'm not very patient person, i may have to just say, hey, we're gonna have to go after him in the morning or wait till this weather stabilizes. So I'm thinking about thermals, I'm thinking about prevailing wind, and I'm also thinking about like storm system wind as I make my approach. So you're gonna want to go where you think either a lot of times and and midday you're gonna want to approach from above the elk, which you know, depending on how the terrain and vegetation lays out is going to affect that, or the way that we will typically do it is we will go down the drainage from those elk far enough on the opposite side, far enough below them that when we start to come up the other side, the wind is going to miss them, and I would rather come up on contour with them if if certain areas, So it depends on what what's going to be allowed. I'm not afraid to to you know, spend a couple hours getting in on them, and and you you know, I try to read the wind where the elk are at a lot of times, if we've hunted areas over over many years, we kind of know that there's going to be scrolling winds or hey, you know, the elk aren't dumb. They bedd in certain areas for certain reasons, and we we've you know, had to do some out of the box things. But know when you get in there, if there were satellite bowls in that herd, the satellite bulls will almost always bed downwind from the herd you're trying trying to get in on. So if you're doing everything right, you will typically run into bedded satellite bowls somewhere along the way of you trying to get to that herd bowl or if you're wanting to kill those satellite bulls, keep that in mind that typically those satellite bowls are going to bed two, three, four hundred yards downwind from where that that betted herd is. So train features. I'm looking for benches, I'm looking for water, I'm looking for and once again these are ideal, little cookie cutter you know, benches of some sort which is just a break in the train or a you know, a gradually not a steep train. And then those elk want some sort of protection above. So like a lot of times, if you've got like steep behind it, they've got you know, they're gonna want to have exit routes. So I'm just looking for some of those terrain features. A lot of times this gives it, like a bonus point is if there's like a low pass up the ridge from there for escapement, so they have to come up and over they can quickly jet out or jet out a trail system, you know, is what I'm looking for. And then ideally as we move in tight, we got to be really patient. I'm really waiting because I don't know where that bowl's at. But if I've did everything right and the wind is in my face, I should be able to smell the herd elk that we're after. But I don't know exactly where he's at. I don't want to get picked off by any elk, so I'm typically waiting for him to make a midday bugle or he will eventually get up bump cows, maybe check on them again. And then a lot of times midday, he may run off to some close water source, so you could be on that water source, or you could try to kill him when he comes back from the water source, or a lot of times when he gets going if you elect to call, you can sometimes get him fired up from sneaking in that close to his herd. But yeah, train features I'm wanting, you know, around home alders because there's typically water in that area. It's cooler, so elk love to bed and alders, you know, if i'm if I'm you know what I call out west anywhere besides the coastal stuff I'm looking for, you know, bigger timber, more solid shade cover, you know. But there are units where the elk will bed out in the sage all day long. So just what terrain features in that area is going to defer no matter where you're at, and elk will kind of bed all over. But that's typically what I'm looking for, is some sort of a relief in the train feature into a bench. Question five, and this will be a little bit shorter. How close do you like to get before making your final setup as close as possible so you can't put a number on that that's going to depend on the train. You know, I always tell everybody a flat hayfield is terrible, but you know a flat, a flat that is full of big timber is better because I now have vegetation that allows me to get a lot closer keep me out of the visual of those elk. Now you add timber or brush into steep rolling country. Now I've got the ideal situation. I've got the train helping me where the vegetation can't, and I've got vegetation helped me where maybe the train isn't. You know, can't give me everything, but that combination and the ability to move it is ideal. So as close as I can get, But ideally, I don't want to make a peep until I'm within one hundred yards of those elk. Now do I always get that close? No? Sometimes the train and vegetation won't allow it. And if I move another twenty or thirty fet I may be able to get away with it. But maybe the setup isn't right, or maybe I can't get away with that twenty to thirty feet. But if I stay at one hundred and thirty yards, at least I've got a good setup. So my setup always dictates how close I can get first, and then if I believe I can set up in a spot, I will continue to push. But as you approach, you're starting to like visualize yourself because you're looking twenty thirty forty yards ahead, like if I got to that tree. And people get pretty good at this, Like as you're walking through the woods, if you've got good woodsman ship, you're like, oh, yeah, the trail is gonna I'm gonna go that way, and then there won't be any trees in my way. I don't have to step over any logs. Like you're looking ahead and you're trying to visualize, like if I set up at that tree, what can I see? Where's that out gonna come from? So ideally one hundred yards if possible, but really as close as you can get without bumping anything. You do not ever want to let them see you. You know they can hear you. Sound isn't the end of the game, but a lot of times I will try to move in silent. It's kind of that shock and awe system. If I can now if you've been pushing an elk, and maybe it's your second or third set up, you don't have to be as quiet you know, an elk isn't going to get there without being quiet, so there's no necessarily need. But I don't know, just sometimes I feel like, hey, I want to especially when I'm moving in on betting areas and stuff. I just want to be ultimate, you know, ultra quiet, not making a peep. Question six, how do you handle a hung up bowl that won't close a distance? This is a tough one. Ideally you prevent that from not setting up where they're going to hang up, you know, be forty yards from when an elk. So here's here's how number one, we're reversing nature. A bowl beagles, that cow usually chooses him and goes to him number one. Number two, when a bowl does have to commit and close some of that distance themselves, they will tip typically stop where they see where the caller is or where that supposed elk, whether it be it a bowl or cow is, and expect to see them. And if you're not there, they will typically hang out for maybe a minute too, maybe pace a little bit, bugle again, and head right back to where they came from. So if you prevent that by getting forty yards from say a terrain break or forty yards away or whatever your archery range is away from a brush line. Do not set up one hundred yard, you know, on a one hundred yard wide meadow, because that bull's going to get to the edge of the meadow, expect to see you, or expect for you to show yourself, and then he's going to leave. So hung up bulls Number one. I try to prevent him if we get in a scenario where maybe we've pulled him as far as he's willing to go and leave his cows, but maybe he's still seventy or eighty yards out. This is where either some out of the box stuff has to happen. We call you know, the dirt calls it the weep, wizbang or whatever he calls it. Where he'll fade back like maybe he's maybe that bull's willing to chase a ca how a little bit farther if she's not at seventy yards or eighty yards or one hundred yards or a hundred and twenty yards, like, maybe he'll keep coming to that cow sound. Maybe he'll chase that bugle next or fifty or sixty yards from where you originally started calling. We will also give them the silent treatment. There are times where you just feel like, all right, we've bugled a lot back and forth, back and forth. He's just sitting their hammering at seventy yards. He's not really in a hang up spot, but he's not coming any closer, so technically he's hung up. We will just go silent for not forty four to five minutes and see if he will respond to that. What's his reaction If he starts to head back to his herd. Sometimes we will. We may start calling again and he will come back to that spot, but there's like an invisible line. He is not coming any closer to us. At that point, you go quiet, let him go back to his herd, settle down, and then we have to make up the distance with our feet. And then a lot of times we can call him back to that same location if he hasn't moved his herd. If that makes any sense, so he's probably willing to come back to that spot. Now, if I'm seventy or eighty yards, I need to be able to move forty or fifty and be able to shoot that location when he comes back. Sometimes we will do it, especially if it's a two person setup, we will have one person stay back and that way only the shooter has to move up forty or fifty yards and then we'll play it that way, and then when you start to call up, maybe we can get him to come back there. So hung up bowls are tough, but I would say, fade back on your calling, be quiet, and then if you need to let him go back to his herd or go the direction he wants, and then close the distance, get a little bit better setup. Question seven. What gear tech has actually made a difference in my success? Man, We work with a lot of great brands, and I don't want to like say that it's made the difference. It does their incremental differences. You know, when we first started, I didn't hunt with a range fighter. I had a big old bushnail eight hundred and it just wasn't I used it for rifle hunting more than than archer hunting. Now that we've got the smaller archery ones, we've got easy ways to keep them and keep them out of the way. Archery range finders are definitely, you know, one of the bigger things that I use Now. There are still situations where you've got to be able to guess or guess them at yardage very you know, very closely. But I would say archie range finders have been a game changer. Early in my career, I had all kinds of issues with boots, so that's that's kind of that gear when I finally got the you know, a pair of boots that fit right has been able to allow me to go and then they're just lighter gear. Maybe it lets you go farther. You know, it's just there's there's lots of great gear, but as far as like making a difference in success, I would say for me, it's been range finders and you know, a pair of boots that fits a little bit better. You know, packs, you know, don't lead to success necessarily, but they're definitely more comfortable. They make they make the whole thing and more enjoyable, you know, tense or lighter, but don't necessari lead to success. I'm going to pack a six pound tent up there, but man, packing a two pound tent is a lot nicer, you know. But yeah, I would say that rangefinders that have actually made a difference and allowed me to be more successful at least on you know, the archery side. You know, I don't use lighted ox I can see where people have trouble following their arrow or you know, need to find their arrow. Could help and success. I wouldn't say success, it may help them know what happened on on the rifle side, you know, a muzzloader side. Changing of some laws where inline muzzloaders are now legal allows me to use you know some you know guns that were designed for black Horn two and nine loss these get up ignition systems that allow us to shoot farther. We had a rule change that allows us to use a one x red dot which now extends your range with the muzzloader. On the rifle side, just the the technology changes over the last twenty years, you know, more accurate rifles, more confidence in me as a shooter. And then I grew up, you know, the old Kentucky windage. We would just hold over, so we really had you know, uh three hundred yard range limit and if something was really set still, we knew exactly what our holdovers needed to be at four hundred and it was kind of a holdover in guests, like all right, we need to be you know, twenty seven inches high at four hundred, Like all right, an elk's chest is twenty you know, whatever it is, you would you would make that decision and just have to hold over. So on. On rifles, I would say scopes with turrets. There's always been that technology, but it's not something I utilized until just recently. Like I say, I I have shot a few animals, which what some people may consider long range, but the majority of our stuff is still close. I would say it's just my confidence to go out there and execute a good shot. You know, triggers that are actually at two pounds versus my old you know, my old ruger that I grew up with, I had a seven pound trigger. You know, some of these things are just they aid in me being more confident. Question eight. How do I stay mentally sharp during multi day hunts with little action? I was just kind of through sports, through growing up, just my mentality, some of my hunting partners mental toughness and mentality. Yeah, there are times where we get down. Our buddies will pick us up. I would just kind of say, we're kind of built for that where it doesn't get at us. I'm also not willing to stay in an area where there's a little action unless I know the little actions being caused by a lull in the rut, some pressure, I will just pick up and leave to a different spot within the unit or with the zone, or wherever I can hunt. But we just go in with the mindset. And we've did this long enough with the same group of guys, Like you only get so many days a year to hunt. We absolutely love the hunt. We love the grind, and we love the difficulty. Like early in my you know, early when and when I started hunting, you know, especially as a youngster, and then as I got into high school and even into college, I always say blood thirsty, but I was very set on being I wanted to kill as fast as I could. Maybe maybe horn siyes didn't matter. The experience didn't matter, the adventure didn't matter. It's like I want to go out and I want to kill the biggest animal I can on the very first day and be done because that made me look like a better hunter or whatever. Now as I'm getting older, like man, I love a grind. I love killing things on the last day. I love going into the last day being like I got just as good as chance as the day I showed up. I feel like, regardless of what you kill, when you come home, and look at that, you're like, yep, that deer was killed on day nine of a nine day hunt and it was five degrees you know, you know, we had crazy temperature swings last year on my Idaho deer hunt with Tyson Dice. Tyson killed on day two. I killed on day nine, and we were going home that afternoon like we had one more hurrah and we were going to do a two and a half hour dive in we spotted a buck across the way bedded, and fortunately we found a buck below us before we took off. But that was our day. We were going to give everything we had to the very end. And a lot of this was built through experience. Enough of me and my buddies and guys I hunt with camera, guys, guys that were there, you know in these hunts. We've been there enough to know it only takes one and it can happen at any time. It can happen on the very first morning of the hunt, it can happen on the very last evening of the hunt. And most of the time in areas that we're hunting or not being messed with by other pressure, it's equal throughout the whole hunt. Like it's just a matter of an animal being in the right place at the right time, and we can make a move on it. So mental toughness is just kind of built. I've also been a firm believer that physical toughness kind of builds your mental toughness because if you're not challenging yourself physical if your physical ability is a pretty high standard or pretty high bar, then you're not questioning your mental capacity all the time, like, man, this is tough, Like you know, we should be doing something else. Like no, if this is just easy, it doesn't kind of if that makes any sense, it just doesn't kind of trigger your mental side. And so I'm always more mentally tough when I go into a season or a hunt in better shape. But uh yeah, just built from experience, Like oh, I've been there at three o'clock in the morning in a boulder field trying to pack a quarter of a bowl out and I live through that, Like this is easy, Like we're still fine. Like if you keep raising the bar on hard stuff, you've did everything else that's not as hard as that. You're like, ah, you've you've got you've got reason on on. I did something, you know, like this before number nine. What's the biggest mistake I see other elk hunters make. And I don't want to make it about calling, but I'm gonna I'm gonna make this one about calling people that are afraid to call it all or don't, or they're they're unsure gain the confidence. We've got all kinds of stuff out there for you. You know, easy one, easy sucker. We're launching the easy one here in a little bit, the easy Bugler. Like some of these things are meant to make it so that you are able to google people that call their way all the way to elk is a big mistake. As I mentioned earlier, these bulls want to maintain their cows. They want to recreate, and they want to keep those cows until the end, till every one of those cows comes into estrus. Do not give them the chance to exit, you know, be quiet until you get there, and then give them no choice in the whole fight or flight decision. It's either if you're gonna fly, I'm getting your cows, or if you're gonna keep your cows, you're gonna come over here and we're gonna have to duke it out. Now from a non calling side. I will add this in hunters that are too committed to an area, I see it. We see it every year. And don't get me wrong, we're all out there for different reasons. You'll see guys come out and set up a sixteen by twenty wall tent. They got their trailers, they've got their you know, rain rain flies out, they've got their shade tents out, they've got all their tables out. Those people are locked into an area for the entire hunt. Well, what if there aren't elk there? What if it's not a good spot, what if the pressure in that area is just absolutely crazy. Now, like I said, if you're there the camp, do what you're going to do by all means, enjoy it, live it up, get out of it what you want out of it. But I'm there to kill an elk. A lot of times we'll throw out a canvas cutter, we'll throw out a pup tent. And I'm not committing to an area until I know there's nobody else in there, or there's enough elk and enough action in there that I'm willing to dive in. So that's one last little mistake. People just over committing to an area or an idea or an e scout or whatever it may be, and not moving or flowing with where the elk are for that year. I've been to areas, you know, year after year. Sometimes it's on fire. Sometimes the elk just aren't there and there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's like, well, is it the food? Is it this or that? It's just not where the elk want to be. Maybe maybe the lead cow died over the year, or the winner and she just took him to a completely different area. There is some data talking with Brock as well, where sometimes these elk just go to a different drainage, they go to a different you know, and for no rhyman reason, You're gonna have to go find those out? Are there wolves in the area? You know? Where are these elk moving? Where do I go to go to find them? And then the last question, what's one rule I always follow when chasing herd bulls? Treat that stock like it's the last stock of the season, the last stock of your life, the last chance you're ever gonna get at that bowl. For me, I was like, why why is the last day? Why do I get more chances? Or why do I always seem to find more success on the last day than all these other days. And so when chasing herd bulls, chasing a bowl I really want to kill, I'm very I always remind myself, like, pull out all the stops on this, don't don't give up, don't get tired, don't risk the wind, don't risk being seen everything, do everything right, put in the extra effort, you know, think about the decisions you're gonna make with with how you're gonna you know, how you're gonna call, how puce you're gonna get. Are you willing to you know, watch your feet and don't snap that stick whatever it is. Treat the light, you know, that stock or that approach or that calling or that setup like it's the last one of the year, and that that goes for archery, muzzload or rifle, Like what do I gotta do to try to make this happen? And if it's always like that, I feel like you're just giving yourself an edge. I always always got like this percent meter in my head where it's like, all right, whatever I'm doing right now, I've got a ten percent chance of killing this bowl. But it's all I got to go on. So We're gonna go do it if I can do everything right, and I feel like, all right now I'm up to twenty percent. Like you're always trying to just stack the odds in your favor, and I try to do that on every decision I make, every hunt I go on, every area I walk into, Like, well, I've been glass in this area for two days. On day three, why would and I haven't seen a note, Why on day three would I pick to go hike into that area unless I'm like, man, I just feel like there's a bull or some elk over there. That's just they're just not showing early in the morning or late at night. Like it just seems like a crazy the idea. But if I've been glass in a ridge for two or three days and always see a herd or two over there, yeah, maybe they are a long ways away. I got to drive around whatever it may be. There's nobody hunting them. They seem to stay out in the open for a while. They seem to be bugling good. It's a boy I want to go kill. Like I'm gonna throw my egg. I'm gonna going after those, Like my percentage is higher over there than going into an area, and so like it's kind of that top of funnel, bottom of funnel, Like I'm early in a hunt, I'm gathering as much information as I can quickly trying to find elk, and then by the end, the bottom of the funnel is where I need to kill that elk. How am I going to put all these parts together, be in the right spot, make the right call, know where these elk are going to go, finally pattern them whatever it may be, and then kill them. Yeah. So just I'm always trying to stack up and fill up that meter of my percentage of success with whatever decisions I'm making, whatever I'm doing throughout the hunt is leading to that being as close to one hundred as I can get it. Now. It is hunting. It's never gonna get close to one hundred. But I'm I'm I'm happy as it can be if I'm out there and I feel like I've got a twenty to twenty five percent odds I kill in the bowl that I hear beagle or the one I see across the way, Like you give me twenty percent odds in any situation, I'm running at that opportunity you put enough. Everybody knows how statistics. I'm a math nerd, Right, So you give yourself five opportunities with twenty percent odds, the odds now say you should have capitalized on one of those opportunities. Right, you give yourself ten opportunities at ten percent, you're eventually going to capitalize. And so I'm just trying to stack enough of those situations up that eventually things are going to work out for me. So no, we appreciate you all tuning in. That was my rambling about out of state and how I think about it, and then just ten questions I wanted to dig into a little bit more that were spurred from an ELK calling seminar I did this weekend. I appreciate y'all, I hope you're all getting ready for y'all season, and thanks for listening to. Cutting the distance is known the mot