00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. As many of you know, I tend to overanalyze and dive deep into random topics during the off season. Lately, I've been down that rabbit hole on bullets. How bolts perform at different distances and velocities, what happens when they hit herm as bone, their accuracy, consistency, how easy they are for me to reload, and of course they're ballistic coefficient? How well can I shoot them at longer ranges? But instead of me just reading and researching on my moment and I figured why not bring on an expert? So today I brought on Maddie Woodward from Nosler onto the show and to kind of help me break down purpose built bullets and the key factors to consider when choosing the right one. And I'm pretty excited to talk to her a little bit about Nauser's new line of suppressors. So let's get into it. 00:00:50 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Mattie. 00:00:52 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 00:00:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've I think we met back in twenty twenty my years get all mixed up at the Western Hunt. 00:01:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was. I won't lie. I was pretty impressed. You're pretty dang good out caller as well. So uh, yeah you. 00:01:07 Speaker 1: Were you were there with with our good h friend John and Kylie Gabriel I don't know if it was Gabriel at that time, hanging out and and uh really good out caller and then you know, our passive kind of cross back again and happy to have you on the show. 00:01:21 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about bullets today. 00:01:25 Speaker 1: And yeah, we had a we we talked to you a couple of weeks ago and I got off of that that call and I'm like, I'm gonna bring her on the on the podcast. She knows way more about bullets than I do. So glad, glad that we could uh could could link up here. And uh, as of late, I'm sure NRL matches aren't new to you, but you've been taking the Top Lady trophy home at the last couple of matches. So for those of my for those of our listeners that don't know, explain what NRL matches are a little bit and then why they're maybe important and how they translate to hunting later on. 00:01:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, So NRL matches are essentially a shooting match with anywhere from eighteen to twenty stages. And they're blind stages. So you go into the stage knowing that you have like two targets or two positions that you have to shoot, but you don't know where those targets are at, where what the distances are. You don't know whether you're gonna be able to get a prone shot a standing shot, so you're kind of going in blind and it really replicates a hunting scenario, and like this isn't at a range, like this is out on a hillside, a mountainside, shooting cross canyon. So the train changes for match to match, but essentially it's trying to mimic that hunting experience. And I shot my first one last spring and I from there, I've kind of like dove into this rabbit hole and what I found is that it's made me a much better, more confident, and more efficient hunter. So I only shot one NROL match last spring and then a PRS match last night, which PRS is Precision Rifle Series, and it really translated over to my anelo punt last ball. So I drew a really great unit here in Oregon. It took me sixteen years to draw for pronghorn antelope, and when I got on the buck that I was wanting to shoot. I was laid down prone and I was shooting cross canyon and the shot was like six hundred and eighty yards, but he ended up moving with his group of does and they went behind a tree that was on my side of the canyon, and so I had to pick up my rifle run to a new spot, and I was I was like fighting daylight at this time, and I was afraid his herd was going to take off. So I had to run to a new spot, get down prone, throw my bag down, and like get on the gun quick. And in that moment, I was like, wow, it like clicks for me. I would not have been able to do this, not that I wasn't capable, but I hadn't practiced it or wouldn't have practiced it. I not shot that NRL Hunter match and got myself into moving more quickly and getting down on my gun and on the target. And so I've started shooting a lot more this year, and what I'm finding is that it's helping me with like that buck fever. And this is this is going to be a little controversial because I've had people take it out of context, but I believe that it is our duty as a hunter to make the most ethical shot and put that animal down as quick as possible. And so what I've found is like you are a hunter up until the point that your crossairs are on that animal, and then you are the marksman. And it's helped me make that animal a target. Like in that split second when I'm pulling the trigger, that animal is just a target as if I was shooting an NRL Hunter match or a PRS match. And then of course I'm ecstatic after I shoot, right like I'm I pumped, the blood flowing, hearts pumping, and I'm like stoked. But it has allowed me to call myself in that moment and be a much more efficient hunter, and I feel like we owe that to the animal. So what I've really been like preaching as I'm kind of going through this process to self or myself and like learning to be a better shooter and hunter, is that be practicing these things has really helped me. And I've been advocating that, you know, people maybe shoot a match, like they don't have to go down the rabbit hole and like be super competitive, but even one match made the world a difference for just like being able to move, being able to manipulate my rifle, my turrets on my scope, range an object, and just do that in a quick manner because as you know, as a hunter, you don't always have time and sometimes it's like you have a split second opportunity. And so I think that that's really what that has helped me with and and those skills have translated to the field. 00:06:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:06:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, And one thing that you know, whether you're able to be able to do what you do and like separate you know, the animal from the target at that point. And you know, if I remember you played college basketball or played basketball, and I'm die hard basketball guys still coach, but it's one of those things like I've taken a shot from here two thousand times or three thousand times or five thousand times in practice, like just having that confidence, so I've did this, I've pulled the trigger at this range and this sort of win and I can make that call and I'm still ninety nine point nine percent confident I can make the shot or I won't do it right. And so it's like it's anything we do in life repetition in different scenarios. You know, I sometimes am guilty of it. Is I've shot semi long range for so long that I've like, oh, I've did it. It's but it's not riding the bike. It's like if you continue to do it, keep your confidence up, you know, some of those things. So it's like anything we do in life, the more you do it, you know, golf, you know, hitting the baseball, Like the more reps you get, the better you're going to be. And so I you know, and I had to laugh as you were talking there, like you know, these different positions on the antelope. I'm the idiot running all over the hill to like, how can I get the terrain to line up just right so I can shoot prone? Right, I need to get the sagebrush out of my way, or I need to you know, cause I'm trying to avoid shooting off of my pack, or I'm trying to avoid getting my my tripod out. I'm trying to do everything prone because I think we could all make the argument that like prone is probably the ultimate if you can get you know, the back set up right. So I'm always trying to search for that like perfect, perfect setup, but it's not always there. Like you know, you're dealing with natural ground, you're dealing with terrain that doesn't allow you to sometimes, you know, and in the situation you brought up where you're shooting on your own side of the valley, very difficult to probably find a way to shoot prone at time, you know, unless it just lines up perfect. 00:07:44 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah. 00:07:46 Speaker 3: I think and we did kind of ah go ahead, No. 00:07:50 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I I've only ever did one, And it was kind of a mock NRL there and three Forks Montana, like the Meat Eater crew got together and it was interesting because they and I don't know if NRL is that way, but there were some requirements like you have to have part of the gun on the tire, you have to have part of the gun touching this, or you have to shoot off the tripod or part of the gun touching the tripod. And so that was the first time I was ever kind of challenged with quick target acquisition and then acquisition and then being able to make a quick shot and dial my turrets. 00:08:19 Speaker 2: And it is I could see that if you went through that. 00:08:21 Speaker 1: Multiple times, like you would eventually hone those skills that it would translate very very well to hunting. 00:08:26 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that prone is the ultimate position right, like you have multiple points of your body on the ground, you're going to be steady. And that's what NRL has forced me to practice, is those positions that I'm not necessarily comfortable with. And even still, when I go out hunting, I'm going to try to take a prone shot just because I know that statistically that is the best shot I can make. But it has allowed me to, you know, utilize a pack underneath my armpit for like steadiness, or a rear tripod, or utilize different objects that are out there in the wilderness when you're hunting to get a steady shot. And so I think it's just like good to practice regardless, but really it definitely put me outside my comfort zone. And I am I'm not great by any means, but I'm definitely getting better. 00:09:19 Speaker 2: Are you ever going to chase down Pinch or al Wine? 00:09:21 Speaker 3: So I think that would be ultimate. 00:09:26 Speaker 1: Oh, I would love just to just to mess with al Wine just just because of who he is or you know, Pinch is too humble for the most part, but not alline, so it'd be it'd be funner to give Matt some some crap. But I know those guys are you know, big into it. And those are some of the guys that if I don't know stuff all, I'll uh, you know, kind of kind of get some get some feedback from you know, I miss the three hundred and thirty yards shot, like you like, I'm very strict on if I'm not one hundred percent confident that i will make the shot first shot hit cold bar like, I'm not gonna take it. And I missed my dear this year at three hundred and thirty yards in Idaho, which like what the heck. I was just shooting like three inch groups at eight hundred our range, Like what in the heck, And we were dealing with like ice and freeze up and being by the fire and like water maybe it got in and like touch points on the barrel or like was the action and and you know, so I was trying to get some feedback from them. And the ultimate takeaway from that is just always let your gun be cold, Like, don't take in the tent with you, don't set it by the fire. Just always keep your gun cold so there's no condensation. But yeah, it was one of those things that drives me nuts, is like, you know, you always want to make a first shot hit and then to screw things up like that. And so yeah, John and John and matter good with stuff like that, and like hey do this or that and but yeah, so you know, you talked a little bit about NRL and I think most of those targets are what anywhere from two hundred to seven hundred, with some going out to one thousand and certain setups. Yeah, so you know, similar to to what we you know, the basketball example I used earlier, or hunting, So now you take that to hunting. You know, the majority of our shots are you know, maybe not the short as two hundred, but shorter than that that ex dream distance. So you know, this translated to hunting, you'd get to do a lot of hunting. You know, I think you know, you mentioned your antelope punt. So what's your experience with hunting, Like what was your upbringing? Like how did you get into hunting? Like how did this kind of you know, you're working at Nausler, you know, getting to do a lot of cool stuff like upbringing, how did you get here? 00:11:17 Speaker 2: What's your your kind of your hunting history. 00:11:19 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've been hunting my entire life. My dad was a big hunter. We grew up hunting the coast range of Oregon, and it was something he loved to do and he always just took my brother and I with him, and so it was something that I just like, it was part of our lifestyle. And I didn't ever really realize that not everyone hunted until I got into like middle school, and I was missing school and like volleyball or basketball practice to go on these months, and I'm like, wait, not everyone is doing this, But it was just really special and it was time that we got to spend with my dad. And that's kind of how we saw when we were little. And then as I've grown up and obviously have I feel stuck with hunting. I feel like my why behind hunting has changed a lot. And I grew up rifle hunting, and then right after high school, like my freshman year of college, I picked up a bow and I love bow hunting. ELK, I know you did too, but there's just nothing like it. So I dabble in both rifle and archery hunting and I kind of use it as a way to expand my opportunities to throughout the year. But yeah, I kind of just grew up not knowing any different, and I'm so grateful that I grew up that way because I feel like it has made me who I am today and like completely changed my life and the trajectory of my life. But now I feel like my why behind hunting is I love the challenge. I love that, like, regardless of success, the hardships and the ups and downs that it's put me through. I feel like in those moments when you're in a whole packing on animal, or like you get stuck out in the dark, you really find what you're made of and you push yourself to new heights and when you come out of that, you feel like you could conquer anything. And it may have been extremely tough, it may have been extremely tiring or hard on your body, but a few days later you're ready to go back and do it again, just because it's so empowering. And then there's the meat portion of it, right, Like I love knowing where my meat comes from. My husband and I eat elk probably five days a week, and it's all meat that we have processed ourselves. No one else's hands have touched that animal. And I truly believe that these animals were replaced as a resource for us. And I think that it's our it's our responsibility to obviously nourish that resource and make sure that there's healthy populations. But I also think that they replaced there for our consumption and for nourishment for us, and so we take that pretty seriously and always take make sure to take really good care of the meat and utilize as much of the animal as possible. But that's something that I really love about. It is like there's nothing as rewarding as going to the freezer and pulling out a package of hamburger that we processed ourselves. 00:14:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:14:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I always kind of use this example of my kids if they like something like and you know, when I killed the first bear whatever it was, you know, they're like, Dad, how many of these can you kill? And they're like, I said, well, at that time, washing you kill too, Like well we need another one, Like we really like the sausage better than Jimmy, you know. And it's those things where it's like, man, that elksteak was really good, Like can we have that again tomorrow? And it's like those are those are kind of like cool moments where like the kids are recognizing they understand the connection of why Dad's gone for a week or you know, like where he's at and like, hey, this is how we get food now, you know, similar to you, I would be lying to say it hasn't changed, you know, grown up with Grandpa who was in the depression, you know, greats and then my dad and Uncle's like, we didn't pass on anything legal. It was all about putting absolutely as many elk as we could in that walk in cooler and making sure we didn't have to buy any meat from the store, you know, through the year. And similar to you, the why is changed, you know, I could Grandpa has passed away, but it's like he's always on my shoulder, like when I go to pass something nowadays, he's like, hey, that was that was legal, like you should you know, and and now and some people hate it and I don't. I don't hide from it, like it's a little bit of a challenge for myself. It is a little bit of a sport because I don't know what other word to use, but it is a challenge and I'm I'm out there for the adventure of the experience, to climb over the next ridge, to see what's in that next basin, Like some of those things are why I'm out there as well as bringing the meat home. I won't deny the fact that we take every ounce of meat, but it's like and doing hard stuff like growing up as an athlete. I felt like that was the thing that challenged me, Like, all right, I've been through a hard thing, Like I remember I couldn't breathe, I'm hunched over, I can't I tell coach like I can't do another one hundred yard ladder, Like those are the things that made you better. And then in life you're like, well, I remember being there like this is nothing. 00:16:07 Speaker 2: And hunting. 00:16:07 Speaker 1: I think for me, there's definitely the physical side about the mental right where you're like, we just killed this deer elk reddit dark. We know we're going to be down in this nasty canyon for the next three hours. It's gonna be midnight by time we even start packing, and I'm going to pack the camp until four in the morning, Like, but you don't have any other option. And so now when you're in your normal day life and things get tough or you know, things aren't working out, you're like, this is nothing compared to like the mental fight I had on that night, you know, and I think it is you know we can over dramatize it, but the reality is it's it's real, like you are who you are from like past past, you know, hardships or times, and it builds. You build upon that and things become easier. And so I love that, Like I always tell everybody, like I'd be five hundred pounds if it wasn't for hunting, because it's it's what keeps me going. It's what I think about all the time. It's like it is my why to like be able to do this stuff. And so yeah, it's it's kind of funny how you know, everybody's journey through hunting seems to change, like why you started and kind of where we're at now. And I think, you know, almost everybody we get to talk to has a similar like change in their path and why they do it. 00:17:16 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And you mentioned like always meat hunting and like shooting the first thing that came up, and that's how I grew up too. I think you guys hunt quite a bit of a coach strange too, and it's thick. You don't see many animals, especially blacktail, and Roosevelt shoots the first one you see because you don't know how many you're going to see throughout the season. And so that's that's how I grew up. And it wasn't until really like this last year that I have had more opportunities to hunt, and I've been grateful to go on hunts with Nozzler and have more opportunities. And so now I'm looking for like the most mature animal, which there's conservation in that right, Like we're looking for some an animal that's at its peak or pass breeding age and letting that younger generation move in and pass on their genes. So I think there's arguments to both sides. But in my immediate family, my husband is the quote unquote trophy hunter and I am the freezer killer. Except for this last year, I did shoot a bigger bowl than him, which is very rare. But yeah, that's still ingrained in my mind. And so that's something that as I grow as a hunter and really just as a person, like that's something that I'm constantly contemplating, like between filling the freezer and if the freezer's empty, then yeah, it's like toot a meat bowl or a meat buck. But if you have plenty of meat, then it's like, okay, let's hold out and look for the most mature animal there is. 00:18:43 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:18:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I have to remind myself a lot of times why we do it. You know, you get to the position we're in at times, and this is going to sound really pretentious, but it's like is you're on the mountain. Sometimes you're like, I wonder what somebody would think about this elk if I was to kill it, you know, and it's like it's the wrong reason. And so like this last year, I had a very good muzzle er taking Washington and wasn't finding what I wanted and I had like me and my buddy, I just had a conversation like pretty cannid, like, man, this is just like eating at me. It's not sitting well, like it's driving me nuts. And I'm like, you know what, I'm just gonna go hunt for fun, like if this bowl gives me the experience I want in beagles, like that's why I'm out there as well. And so it's it's sometimes good to like reground, you know in trophy hunting. I'm gonna go way off tangent here because you said that, Like I've also I really me and Derek just did a podcast I think maybe ten episodes ago on trophy hunting and like the difference between mature versus like one that scores well. And I'm not even gonna go down that rabbit hole, but like, that's another thing that drives me nuts. Somebody's willing to go shoot a three year old four point versus like, well, there was an eight and a half year old, you know, three by two next to it. Like, are we out there to kill like and do our jobs? Are we out there to say that you got a buck that scored ten inches better? But I'm gonna I'm gonna diverge because that's a different rabbit hole that we want to jump into. 00:19:52 Speaker 2: Bullets. 00:20:02 Speaker 1: One last thing before we jump into the to the what I call the nerd talk or the technical talk about bullets. Nausa, I'm under you guys are expanding right there in Redmond. You guys are building new facilities. Tell us a little bit about like you guys have outgrown the facility you're in, doing some some cool changes before we jump into the the uh, you know, the talk about bullets. 00:20:23 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, for those that don't know, Nazler's a seventy seven year old company started back in nineteen forty eight, We are owned by the third generation Nozzler, So Johnny Nozzler started the company back in nineteen forty eight and then it's been passed down and we're on third generations. It's a NASA family. It runs this place very involved. We have a tight knit staff here and we have a facility in both Spend and Redmond here in central Organ and we have just outgrown it. And it's kind of crazy being a seventy seven year old company and still being in a growth phase, but that's ultimately where we are, and so we are. We're building a huge new facility in Redmond, Organ which is just fifteen miles north of us right now, and we do have a smaller facility there right now where we manufacture brass, we build rifles, suppressors, the load ammunition, but it wasn't as efficient I we'd like it to be. We really just want to get everyone on one campus. So we are building a new facility production and headquarters will have everyone on one campus. Will be expanding our production, and then there's also a growth phase down the road once that facility is built. For years down the road, there's a plan six spand even further. 00:21:35 Speaker 2: Nice. Nice, yeah, it is. 00:21:37 Speaker 1: It is crazy, you know, I'm our company is what whoa. 00:21:41 Speaker 2: Fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old? 00:21:43 Speaker 1: I don't even know, you know, and still growing, but like to be at seventy seven, like I always just assume like the plateau is coming. I'm sure there's some flat years, but like to still be growing, expanding, that's pretty awesome. 00:21:54 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really exciting. And I think that there's still a lot of potential for an outs. They're out there. 00:22:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's exciting. So let's jump into bullets and bullet construction. And I always you know, growing up, when you didn't know everything that that you know, the internet's there, it was always funny because as you started to elk hunt, it like if you weren't around home, if you weren't hunting the brush with a partition, you would have thought there was no way that that elk would ever die from any other bullet, you know. And so I can remember like growing up, all my uncles had either seven mags or thirty odd sixes, and you know, you had your one sixty partition load and your seven Like everybody shot the same gun, same load, same everything, And so like growing up, it was like Donza partition was the bullet, just like you had to have a loopholed scope, but three by nine by forty you had to have an allar bar like everybody had what you had to, you know, have on your gun. And I could remember I was the black Sheep when I started shooting one sixty acubans out of out of my seven mag And so, uh, those are some of the bullets we're gonna we're gonna kind of get into. But let's and I hope I don't get your guys as like you know, tagline wrong, but like I think it's easy to say that you guys build purpose built bullets and so kind of walk us through. I don't know if you want to start at them, but like, when you guys go to design a bullet, are you trying to fill coffers? Like is it set up for a velocity? Is it set up for a specific animal? Is it set up for a specific distance? Is it set up for a certain expansion? Like control of that bollet? Like, walk us through that that design process on how these specific purpose or purpose built bullets are kind of thought about. 00:23:31 Speaker 2: Is that brought to market? 00:23:32 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we think about them in multiple different ways. One of the ways is the species that you're hunting, and a lot of times that can vary, right, So like we have a partition in you know, a two forty three and then a partition on the heavy side and a three hundred wind bag, and so you're not gonna be hunting elk with the lower end caliber or like varmints with the higher end caliber. But we do bail them specific for those different use cases within the caliber range. But ultimately our hunting bullets are made to have penetration and great expansion, and within that we have a few different lines of bullets. So one is the partition, which is what the company was founded on back in nineteen forty eight. And just for a little backstory there, John Nodler went to British Columbia and on a moose hunt and he shot a moose at a reasonable yardage that he thought the moose would go down at and he ended up shooting him multiple times before the moose went down. It was a mudcakes moose, and ultimately what he found was that those bullets were not penetrating the high and so it took like some seven shots for this moose to go down and as an engineer, and you know a hunter, he was like, A, that doesn't feel right for the animal, and B with his engineer mind, he was like, I can build a better bullet. And so he went back and instantly was like drawing up these bullet ideas. And that's where the partition stem from. And the partition is a dual core design, so you have a front core and a rear corps divided by an integral partition, and defront is designed for rapid expansion upon penetration, and then the rear core is designed to drive that mushroomed bullet through the animal. So the partitions really known were really well known for big game, really well known here in the West like elk, deer, moose, bear, and then very popular over in Africa for planes game. And John explained it as like a truck and trailer. So you're hauling a heavy load that doesn't have trailer brakes and you go to hit the brake and that trailer keeps driving you through. And that's of what he designed that partition off of. And then from there the partition is is what most bullets in the industry now are designed based on. And it's funny because people are always like, oh, well, what is NAS are doing? It's new and innovative and and it's it's like the partition, it works right there. So to innovate that partition, it's the accubond, which is our bonded bonded version. It doesn't have a dual core, but that bonding helps keep that weight retention and penetration, and then it has the tip for increased BC longer distance shooting. So I like the accubond, but I feel like that's a younger generation thing. And I've been very successful with the acubond. All of the guys that I talk to that are that are older than me or that have been around since the company is founding the way by the partition, and I think they're both really great options. But ultimately, like we're looking for penetration and that weight retention, and so we want to not only create a big wound cavity through that animal, but we want it to push all the way through. And so we have the partition, the acubond. We have an Acubond Long Range, which is another bonded bullet that we have a proprietary bonding process. If you've shot other bullets, sometimes you'll notice that the core will separate from the jacket, and we found that that isn't the best way to always design a bullet when you're wanting that deep penetration. So we have the Acuban long range, and kind of the rule of some is acubond is for inside five six hundred yards, and the Acuban long range is really when you're expecting to get that long cross canyon shot, you know, four hundred to you know, anywhere one thousand yards, and it's hard, right, you don't know what kind of shot you're gonna get. So you might go to Hell's Canyon thinking you're going to get a cross canyon shot and you see a buck that that's on the same hillside as you. So the really neat thing about the Acuban long range is it has a great expansion at both high and low velocity, so you're not really going to be stuck if you have to shoot a close range shot. I shot an odd ad with an Accuban long range at one hundred yards. Then he went down within a few yards, so you get you still get that really good expansion. It's just ideal expansion is at a further distance. 00:28:34 Speaker 1: Yeah, And That's kind of where I sit and struggle. It's like, man, if the acubond, like if I could make a better wind call on an acubon out or if it doesn't, you know, if it would create So then you're like leaning into long range acubon. But then like, how does it perform at two hundred? So in my mind, I'm looking at like these envelopes of like what these what these bullets are designed for? And then I go out in the woods with like, all right, I've got the ability to shoot eight hundred to one thousand if I need to, but I absolutely don't want to, you know, unless and even then we all know that when we pull the trigger at long ranger, we've shot targets enough. If you get any amount of wind and you can't figure out the camp, like you just don't shoot right, and so you you know, you have to get closer. 00:29:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I want to go out. 00:29:14 Speaker 1: In the woods like with the idea like I can shoot six hundred ish if I need to, but I would love to shoot something at a hundred if it works out that way. But then, you know, some of the bolts I've shot in the past, you know, it's like I've shot a meal deer at sixty yards and I've shot ye you know, like you're you're always nervous, like how are these going to perform? How much meat is going to be there when you're done? And so that's where it's like, all right, the long range acubon gives me all the you know, gives me a high BC. I'm going to be able to make a better wind call without as much air involved, and it's still going to perform when I do need to pull the trigger, you know, on something at one hundred yards. And so that's where you're like you're trying to like figure out what fits the perfect scenario versus like, all right, if you're going moose hunting in the bogs and the timber there's no openings, You're like, yeah, I'm just gonna grab a partition because I just want the heaviest well I can get. I don't need a high BC. I don't need to be able to make a decent win call. And so you just and that's where I think, you know, when you're saying purpose built bullets, you might be able to know you might need to grab different bullets for different situations or a different gun for different situations if they're set up differently. 00:30:15 Speaker 3: Yes, And what I found is it's ultimately what you are confident in, right. I think confident in your gear and equipment goes a long way. So like my hunt last year, I had an amazing year hunting. I shot everything with a one sixty graine Acuban out of my twenty eight dollarswear. So I shot my analote but six hundred and eighty yards with that Acubon and I found the bullet on the off side shoulder, right under the skin, So like that bullet emptied all of its energy into that antelope did its job perfectly. So I think it's it's ultimately like looking at the game that you're hunting, the train that you're hunting, and then what your rifle likes. Every rifle shoots a little bit differently. It might take trying a couple different types of bullets to see what your rifle shoots the best. But yeah, I think between you know, the occuban, occuban long range and the partition for big game here in the Northwest, like you're pretty much set. 00:31:17 Speaker 2: Yep, yep. 00:31:19 Speaker 1: And then you guys do have like your your your competition bullets, you know, your reduced drag factor and then your competition line. You know this this is probably going to open up a can of worms because and I have hunted with them, right, and I think we would be denying that they do work. But one of our concerns is like reliability that it's going to do that every time, like you could it may work one time. You know, I was telling you before we hit the record button. You know, my dad used one of my custom built seven mags back in twenty fourteen shot a meal You're out at you know, five point fifty five eighty somewhere in there. I can't remember the exact yardage, and like, hit it back, didn't hit the shoulder, which we we try to do, you know, and miss the rib and we literally got a point to eight four hole in and a point to eight. 00:32:03 Speaker 2: Four out hole out. 00:32:05 Speaker 1: And going back to our our conversation earlier is like, yeah, did the deer die, Yes, but did it take way longer than I would ever want? Yes, you know, And so it's like you run into some of that where it's like, all right, you hit you hit that deer in the same spot with an ACU bond or you know, a bullet that's that's more controlled. I guess you probably get better performance, you know, on stuff like that. 00:32:29 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we can, I mean, we can get into like some of the details about the difference between our hunting bullets and our target bullets. I think that ultimately it's just it's information for people to know. And ye a lot of times and this used to be me before I really started working in Alblar and getting more knowledgeable about how billet of how bullets are constructed. I would go to Buymart and I would say, oh, okay, I need AMMO and seven red bags, and I would look for the cheapest option and I would go and site it in at one hundred yards a week before season, and I would go hunt with it. And I just think there's so much more information out now and like online to learn about how these bullets are constructed, and being involved with how they're made. A nozzler has really opened my eyes to what is the best option for the animal. And so the way that we make our bullets or our hunting bullets is called impact extrusion, and it takes a copper slug and what it does is it punches out that slug, so it allows us to build a heavy base, a heavily tapered jacket, so we're getting good expansion at the front of the bullet, but then that heavy base allows it to push through and penetrate, whereas competition bullets are made with a copper strip, so the bullets jacket can only be as thick as that copper ship starts and then the core is inserted, so really we're not able to manipulate that bullet's construction as much. But that's okay, right because with our target bullets, we're not worried about their terminal performance. We're not worried about what they're doing after they impact the target. We're just worried about how they get there. And so I think what I found is that people really like the target bullets because of how accurate they are. You know that RDF is optimized to be accurate, but we don't know what it does on an animal when it hits that animal, or like what is doing after it impacts the high So we've experienced bullets that are made for targets on animal, we've experienced them penciling through like you mentioned, like one hole in, one hole out. It doesn't do a whole lot of internal damage well, and with that, it doesn't endy any of that energy into that animal, because when a bullet ushrooms, it's increasing the diameter of that bullet and it's it's creating a larger hole through the animal, and it's also jumping its energy. So we've experienced target bullets that pencil right through and usually if you're getting a small hole like that, the animal's blood will just clog the hole and you won't get a good blood trail, or we've seen them blow up on impact because we're not concerned with what they do because they're not meant for hunting. So people love how precise they are, they love how accurate they are, but I think ultimately you need to look at the terminal performance of the bullet, and our hunting bullets are constructed with that. 00:35:41 Speaker 2: In mac, what's your guys's opinion? 00:35:52 Speaker 1: You had mentioned And one thing I did play with the acubon don't I mean? And I'm also a big you know fan of dead is dead, right, you can't kill it, But like I did find like half my ACU bonds would hold up on the opposite hide, half of them would make it through, Like where's nas are kind of sit on? 00:36:09 Speaker 2: Like one hole versus two holes? 00:36:11 Speaker 1: Like there is the idea we dropped all our energy versus me sometimes, especially growing up in the coast, where you're like, man, its trueould be nice to have blood out that other hole, you know, Like, so where where does nas are kind of sit? I mean the partition at the right ranges usually always gets itself out the other side. The acubond for me back in the day when I was hunting with the one sixty out of my seven mag was kind of like fifty to fifty, you know it depending on how much bone and if I ended up in the opposite shoulder versus I went out the opposite you know, ribs, what do you guys put thought into that? Like do we want the ball to go out? Do we want to drop energy? Or do I mean the ideal situation be like it used its last one foot per second to like poke the hole through the opposite side. Right now you've got two holes and then you've dropped all your energy. But like, where where's your guys' thought on that? 00:36:55 Speaker 3: Yeah? So really, I though, is that we would love to have two holes, right? You want that blood trail if you're going to have to track an animal. But I've experienced that too, like fifty to fifty. Sometimes it'll stay right under the skin, and I'm like, oh, well, why didn't it just like pop right through. But most of the times I found that those animals are dead right there or pretty close, like they're not going very far. I think that it really plays into where you're you're hitting them. If you're behind the shoulder. I've seen that most times they're going through. If you do hit shoulder, I've found that they usually stay in the hide on the off side. 00:37:36 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:37:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it seems like I'm always backwards. I'm shooting down so my entrance holes high, and if it doesn't come out to the bottom where all the you know, the way gravity would work, in the way the blood works, I'm like, dang it, I wish I was shooting uphill and could put the hole low and then you know, so you're but like you said, I've always found them close, But it's just when you're it seems like when we're shooting stuff, especially deer and like overgrown clearcuts, it's like, man, this scene gets ten feet away from where I shot it. Now we're like on hands and knees already if it, you know. And that's all I've always wondered, Like I've never been a big fan of all copper bullets at all, but that is the one the one bonus is you get the two holes. But I don't they don't shoot good. They build pressure fast like all the other things that we're not talking about, you know, the monos just just don't shoot well or I haven't got them to shoot well in any of my my guns. But it does give you two holes. That The only time I switched to more of a ah, you know, a solid copper is in my muzzleloader because for some reason, that entrance will never hardly bleeds and they will go for a while until I'm like all right at times I'd like to go out the other side. But even then, I switched to a bonded bullet this year just for better BC and a little bit more accuracy out of that that muzzle order. But I was, I was kind of curious, you know, on on that. 00:38:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's process. It's like pros and cons, right, Like you can't achieve everything with every bullet, especially in so many different scenarios. Like it's going to perform on deer differently than performs on elk. There's like flight variations, variations and caliber bullet weight and in a lot of our different like calibers and bullets, we offer different bullet weights, and so like shooting through heavy brush, we shoot a heavier bullet thin skin game, you could shoot a lighter bullet. Like, there's some different variations there that people will play around with. And and you know, we load our loaded ammo, like the three hundred wind bags. We load in a one eighty accubond in partition and a two hundred great actbon in partition. So it's like it's a little bit of personal preference, but it's like, you know, you can't achieve every little thing like for everyone and every bullet. Some people love that the bullet stays inside and dumps all of its energy. Some people would rather see a complete pass through every time. And it's like, you know, how do we win? 00:39:50 Speaker 2: Yeah? 00:39:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think me and you would maybe maybe both agree that, Like my number one is like I hit it where I want to, like number one, and then number two, like the bullet may do it's own little thing. So it's like I want to be able to hit exactly where. And I'm confident that, you know, all these bullets will do what they need to as long as I can get the bullet there. What's your opinion on like extremely heavy for caliber like bullets. So I've been shooting a three thirty eight edge the last few years, and I've been shooting a three hundred grain bullet, and I love that, Like that sexual density is very very high in that bullet, and then I get the best of both worlds. I'm getting all the expansion I want, but then that bullet's always got enough energy to just like get out the other side. 00:40:29 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:40:30 Speaker 1: So that's where, like in this conversation where you're like, it really depends on the user if you like to get kicked by a three hundred grain bullet leaving the gun at three thousand feet per second, Like it is what it is. But you guys have some three hundred grain offerings in your three thirty eight as well, right in both the both ACU bones, if I remember it, you have the three hundred in both, yeah, which may be a good option if you want that, you know, you know, good expansion, but then a whole out of both sides. 00:40:55 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's another one where it depends, right, like depending on the animal and your your scenario, And a lot of guys are still holding over, like so are you are you holding over? Are you dialing? Do you know the ballistics? What's that foot pounds of energy once it's getting to that animal, what's that velocity? And that that changes based on that bullet weight, and so those are those are definitely things to consider and everyone has their preferences. So if you if you can handle that recoil and love that, you know that just like knock down power energy, then I say that's great, But like not everybody needs that or want that, And I think that that's exactly why we have those different options. 00:41:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's just something to think about, like you can, you know, pick calibers, pick speeds, you know, you increase the speed light in the bolt, like you're probably going to get more of that, you know, more I don't want to say, I don't want to word this right, but you're gonna get more catastrophic mushrooming. 00:41:58 Speaker 2: Right, it's gonna be quicker, it's going. 00:41:59 Speaker 1: To expand more, but you're probably not gonna be able to drive it out the other side when you upspeed lower weight. So you we're playing with all those things, and you can really kind of personalize to some degree what your bullet performance is gonna be. 00:42:11 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you can. And I do like a heavy for calible caliber bullet. I like that devastation. I like that that animal is just getting wopped and they're going to drop right there. But some guys don't. But for me, I like I have rangefinders or rain finding buyinos that have the blistic builts in. So I'm just dialing my scope. I'm not worried about, like, you know, super straight flight. I'm okay with some drop. 00:42:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, I even it just depends, yep, yep, I've I mean, we're not gonna we're not talking about long range. But I've always felt like as long as you've got like good info on your load, like the up and downs easy, yeah, and as long as your bullet construction is good, you won't get that like vertical stringing. So as long as all that's like, it's the left right that's always going to get like up and downs left right not as easy to deal with. 00:43:03 Speaker 2: So no, thank thanks for. 00:43:04 Speaker 1: Running through those, you know, it's it's interesting to to you know, pick your gun, pick your load, pick your caliber, and and you know, just like you guys's bullets are specifically built, Like I think it needs to be specifically picked for what you're hunting and your situations, you know, or or your most likely situations. And then hopefully you have a good enough setup that gives you like enough variability that you can handle you know, closer ranger a little bit further than your your ideal. Yeah, so let's jump into suppressors. I always, if you had asked me five years ago, I was never hunting with the suppressor. It's for you know, tactical people or you know, serial killers or whatever. I hope hopefully that's all I get. But that's just like what was in my head, Like I'm I shoot a muscle break, Like what do I need a suppressor for? Like these things are in movies there, it's for the military. Now I've ordered one, getting ready to order my second one. You guys got a pretty good line of suppresors. Kind of give us a rundown on knows how they were design, what their intention that kind of the whole the full meal do because I think there are a lot of people still in my where I was at five years ago, where it's like, why would I what do I need this for? It's just extra linked on my gun. What's it going to add? But sorry I interrupted you there. But like, for me, the reason it became very, very important was I keep pulling my damn you know, pulling the trigger without having my hearing protection in. And I'm like, I still, You're still gonna probably recommend you always have your hearing protection in, but on a hunt, it's maybe not going to make me lose my hearing as fast. So like run through why suppressors are important, all the pluses, and why somebody should have them on their hunting gun. 00:44:36 Speaker 3: Yeah, we started making suppressors a few years ago, and I can't believe how much suppressors have taken off in the hunting community just in the last few years. I never hunted with one until just like two years ago, and now I'm like, I'll never go back, but I see a lot of value in suppressors for hunting. Not only are you not disturbing other animals in the area, but I've seen where you know, I'll shoot an animal that has a herd with it and the herd doesn't know what happened, Like, they're not afraid, they're not disturbed, and when you're looking at like putting that animal down right there, Like I'm a big fan of shoot until it's down. And so even if I made a good shot, if it's still standing, I'm not gonna wait to see if it goes down before I put another one in it. And so follow up shots are much easier and more likely with a suppressor because when that animal's herd doesn't take off, it doesn't take off, it usually will like stay in the area, right, So that's one thing, is like follow up shots. And then also since COVID, we've seen an influx of new hunters and new firearms owners in this space, which I think is wonderful. But with that comes like kids and women and these people that are new to guns, and they can be intimidating, right, So that suppressor helps the funnel those gases that are coming out the end of their barrel and reduces the recoil so you're not getting wopped in the shoulder. It's more fun to practice, which I think that people are able to become better hunters because they're practicing more it's more enjoyable. And then stage you're hearing. So like when you're out practicing or shooting at the range and you're going to use ear protection, but when you're in that moment on the hunt and you use a muzzle brake to help with recoil and that, I mean, that's creating even a louder bang. You're not hearing that because you're in the moment, you're adrenaline rushing, but that is still impacting your ears and your ear drums and damaging your hearing. And so I think there's multiple reasons why they're beneficial. But I used to shoot my dad's three hundred wind bag when I was little, and he would like cite it in for me or and then he'd be like, hey, you need to put one shot through it to make sure you're good. And I just remember I always dreaded that. I'm like, I was always scared to pull a trigger, which doesn't give you a good trigger press, and I'm like, dreaded that one shot a year, Like when I got on an ELK, it wasn't a big deal because I didn't even feel it. But in practicing, I think that it has allowed people to enjoy the hunting and shooting experience a little bit more practice more saves their hearing, and then ultimately when you're out there hunting, like doesn't disturb nearby game and follow up shots. So Nazler got into the suppressor game a few years ago and we have a really pretty extensive line of suppressors. My favorite is our Kae Can and that's because I already have a long barrel on my hunting rifle and so I wanted something that was short, light, still protected my hearing, but it wasn't going to be like something dragging down the end of my barrel when I was taking it into the back country. So our Ta Can, which is our SR thirty K, is in aluminum titanium construction and it's made for it's made four hunters. It's lightweight, it's short. But then we also have full size cans that are we have full titanium, which are full auto rated. We have aluminum titanium which is a little bit lighter and like not full auto rated. But who's using that full auto rating? You know what I mean? Like most people like that just because they're like, oh it might last longer. It's you know, the rating is there, But as a hunter, you're usually only putting a couple of rounds down the barrel at a time and you're letting it cool off. And so unless you're doing like rapid fire through several magazines, you're not going to need that full out of rating. But we have different options. We have a twenty two suppressor, which is twenty two and lower caliber. We can shoot like seventeen HMR or you know whatever that might be to do three for kyo hunting. And then we have our thirty suppressors, which is like our s R thirty K or SR thirty TAI and those are rated for thirty cow or lower. So that's what I run on my twenty eight Doglar. And then we also have a thirty three can which is like thirty three thirty eight. 00:49:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the big guy. But you could still run it on like a three hundred if you wanted more more reduct. Yeah, so you can. As long as you're over, you can typically run it. I don't want to put anything out there like exact, but typically you know, check. 00:49:32 Speaker 2: With the manufacturer. Yeah yeah, yeah, and then so what what what do you have to do? 00:49:39 Speaker 1: Like, what's the process I know, you guys have a couple of partners because you guys don't actually sell your your own so like if somebody wanted to. This was what kind of was the most overwhelming thing to me, is like you know you have to set up a trust or do I have to do a text? You know, like all this like you guys don't sell your own. You guys manufacturer and then sell through partners. 00:49:56 Speaker 3: Correct, yep, we sell through silences and Silence is Central and then we sell through multiple dealers across the country. But Science are Shop and Science is Central are really the easiest options in most streamline and that's because they have the E forms and so suppressors. I think there used to be that barrier of entry because it was like all this paperwork and it took forever to get it. You had to pay for it up front, had to pay for your tax team, and then you had to wait like a year and a half. And so that's not the case anymore. You can pretty much do it all online or write in store at a dealer that has a sensor shop kioff and it's pretty simple. And the wait time is I want to say, it's down to like three months. 00:50:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually I just got one through silence or central and I had the from the time I started to getting the suppressor was five weeks. Oh, so I don't want to I don't want to say it's that fast for everybody, but it was pretty dang quick, aside from me thinking I had messed up on my fingerprint and stuff like, and it ended up being okay, like it was, it was pretty dang quick. And yeah, I just like you had mentioned, the plus is for me getting my kid into it. You know, I was shooting just a broke seven short action ultramag but like to him being a ten year old, yeah, it didn't have a lot of recoil because of the break, but he would be the kid that would want to put earplugs in his ear muffs over him, put his head hood of sweatshirt on over top, and then like, is there anything else you can do? 00:51:20 Speaker 2: Dad? 00:51:21 Speaker 1: Because he just didn't like, you know, all of all of the noise, Like it was more he didn't the kick didn't bother him, and so it was like I started to realize, like this is not enjoyable. It's like giving him some like anxiety issues. He wants to go shoot, but he doesn't love the you know, the big bang, And so I think this is going to help a lot. And not that this is everybody's problem, but like, even are my buddies that shoot breaks, Like when you're hunting together, there's a shooter and there's a spotter, and there's you know, we have a camera guy thrown in. Like it's not very fair to those guys either, because they all got jobs to do and you're all trying to get your hearing protection in. It's like, this is going to be nicer, and and yeah, it's going to reduce anywhere from I think twenty to thirty five desk depending on which one of your guys are suppressors you have on, but at least any we would I think everybody would still recommend you still use hearing protection even at those numbers. But and I'm on an audio doctor, I'm not giving you any advice, but if you pull your trigger with that on, you're not gonna probably create as much you won't create as much damage as you would without the suppressed on, right, So it's yeah, it's that it's that you're taking the edge off of it. You're you're doing less damage, and it's it's more sustainable, and. 00:52:27 Speaker 3: All of ours are hearing safe at the year. We've done it pretty extensive testing and they are hearing safe at the year. 00:52:34 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:52:34 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's that's what I'm most excited about. I'm I mean kind of the one trade off that we all get it. Yeah, it's a little bit more weight, it's a little bit extra length on your gun. And you can almost see the movement now with suppressors coming on and say all right, we're gonna try to shoot the maag through like the twenty two inch barrel, right, so you can end up so everybody's trying to go shorter barrels, a little bit faster, powders maybe. 00:52:53 Speaker 2: Giving up a little bit of speed. You know. 00:52:55 Speaker 1: The folding stocks have made a big bank, you know, and I and I almost wonder if it's not because of the suppressors, because everybody's adding you know, six to eight inches of suppressor off the end of their guns now. Yeah, but yeah, I think I think people are it's becoming a big thing. It almost when you look at the hunting industry, it's like, man, what's doing the best. You're like, probably suppressors right now, Yeah, they're doing great, probably suppressors, and uh yeah, it's funny you see in my opinion, stock designs, you know, barrel designs, all these things probably hinging around the popularity of suppressors right now. 00:53:30 Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred. We just we just launched twenty inch three oh eight like a great little truck gun. But then you add a suppressor and it's like it's perfect. So yeah, I definitely think that manufacturers are recognizing that and launching rifles and barreling based on the assumption that someone's going to throw a suppressor on it. 00:53:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's Uh, I'm excited to hunt with that and not have to necessarily always have my hearing protection in and and blow my ears out and have tonight. Like you said, you don't necessarily notice it when you pull trigger. It's just the ringing in my ears for the next five days that I do notice. 00:54:07 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:54:09 Speaker 2: So yeah, well, I really. 00:54:11 Speaker 1: Appreciate having you on, Matty. Is there anything that you want to follow up with anything? How can people find out more about Nozler check out your bullets if they have any more questions like where do they go and how do they find you guys? 00:54:23 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a ton of information on Ausler dot com. We also sell directly on there, and so if you want to know more about bullet construction, that is where I would go. We have an extensive line of those bullets and even more that we didn't talk about today, like our new white Ceil country or ballistic tips. So I think finding the right bullet for you and then finding the bullet that your gun really likes is important. 00:54:47 Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah. 00:54:49 Speaker 1: Do you guys have like load data and stuff on there as well, like if somebody has a gun or they want to reload, like you guys have your starting points with different powders and different bullets that you guys manufacture. 00:54:59 Speaker 2: On there as well. 00:55:00 Speaker 3: Yep. We have all of our load data for free on our website, and then we also do sell like a reloading guide, but it has all the same information that's available on our website. 00:55:09 Speaker 2: For three That's awesome. So I really appreciate having you on, Mattie. 00:55:14 Speaker 1: Look forward to trying to work up a three hundred PRC load here real quick and see where we end up. But like I said, thank you and good luck on all your hunts this year. 00:55:23 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for having me on