00:00:00 Speaker 1: The best spot on your farm has bad access, then it's not the best spot on your farm. 00:00:06 Speaker 2: Welcome back to back forty podcast, brought to you by Land dot com, the leading online real estate marketplace to find your perfect rule recreational, agricultural or hunting properties here in the US. And there's still some time to go to the meat eater dot com backslash back forty for a chance to win a white deal kit worth one thousand dollars. 00:00:24 Speaker 3: The contest ends August twelfth, so don't wait. 00:00:27 Speaker 2: Sign up for a chance to win today at themeaeater dot com. 00:00:31 Speaker 3: Backslash Back forty. 00:00:33 Speaker 2: And today we're diving into a topic that we've all likely ran into at some point. And so this might have been when you're summer scouting. Maybe it's from last year. Maybe there's this a spot that comes to mind and it has bad access. And so I wrangled up the panel of experts Steve Hanson, Don Higgins, Bobby Kendall, Jeff Sturgis, Skip Slide, Bill Winky, Thomas Milsna, and Mark Kenyon to ask the question, the best botto my farm has bad access? Should I hunt it? How do I hunt it? And as you're listening, to this. You probably have a spot like this in the back of your mind, So this is going to help you evaluate the risk versus reward for this upcoming season and get a couple different opinions and see what expert on the panel fits your hunting style the most. Because all these guys are really efficient at deer hunting, but they all have their own take on how to potentially hunt a spot like this or maybe not hunt a spot like this. So without further ado, let's get into the earning question and whitetail dilemma for this week on back forty. First up, we have Thomas Milsna. Thomas hunts a permission property, shared permission property, still very active with strategizing, planning and proving a property. But here's what he has to say on whether you should hunt a spot with bad access even if it's really good. 00:01:55 Speaker 1: The best spot on your farm has bad access, it's not the best spot on your farm, right, So there's two ways to look at that. The best spot for deer isn't always the best spot to hunt deer, and understanding that is is what's going to determine your success or destroy that spot and push that deer activity elsewhere, potentially on the neighborhoods property. And I've made this mistake a lot, a lot. You find a spot and you're like, yes, this is it, right. You get that feeling that like big buck Spidey sense hair and back of your neck raised. As you walk into that spot. You can smell it. You can almost like smell the buck, you know, you must literally can't, yeah, exactly that musky smell. But you have to understand first and foremost, I'm going to look at what the wind direction is doing in a spot like that, And you also have to look at it objectively, because if you're there scouting that one moment in time, that one set of conditions, it's going to be dramatically different at four thirty pm when the shadows hit that hillside, or at you know, five am, or whatever it might be. So you have to think about it holistically from a sense of like how things change, should up the day and the greater landscape and how they air and all that stuff is moving. And if you can put together a really good plan, you know, in relation to where deer coming from and where they're going and how to get in and out of there, then then yes, you can you can hunt it right, But if you can't, then the next step is you need to look at again where deer coming from, where they're going, and can I intercept them coming to and from If you're in hill country. A lot of your really awesome spots with a lot of sign are oftentimes those thermal hubs. And the reason deer love to be there is because they can bet up above them smell everything coming up out of them, and then they can drop down into them and smell stuff coming out of them at the same time, right, so they can they can understand that area. It makes them feel really really comfortable. 00:03:53 Speaker 4: You know. 00:03:53 Speaker 1: It's usually in some type of security cover, either surrounded by dense cover or into pag You know, topography is the greatest form of cover. So the topography itself walls off other sources of threats and that's where you know, you can use that to your advantage, maybe to get on the fringe, but you have to understand how the error is moving in a spot like that, and if you can't get in there, then you can't get in there. And then that's where you know every year is building here that mindset comes in. 00:04:20 Speaker 3: Okay, this is a good spot. Maybe maybe if I can't figure. 00:04:24 Speaker 1: Out how to hunt it, I'm just gonna slip in there and throw a camera and anticipate what's going on. And then a tactic that I love to employ with trail cameras is always strive to run your cameras in tandem. You know, one camera might be like an inventory camera, right, or it's over a gate or something like that. But if you're truly trying to figure out deer movement or pick apart a situation like this, get a camera in there and have a camera or two bouncing around the outside in areas that you are for sure able to hunt because of consistent air movement, and then just cross reference that information, you know, whether it's sell cams a lot of times, and maybe this is why I don't rely on cell cams very often, because a lot of times those really good spots like that don't have very good cell service. So that's something to think about too, And then just let it soak. Hunt those fringes, but hunt safe and smart. Just don't go in there all crazy, because again, you just don't know. And if you do, make sure you've got your milk weed and you're checking the wind like crazy, so that if if you fail epically, at least you learn from that situation. But it just flat out not every good spot for deer is a good spot to hunt, you know. And then when we talk about every year is being a building year, where it's going with that is a habitat. So if you understand where deer are coming from, where they're going, how can you either increase cover to get into that spot or increase attraction somewhere else to pull dear out of that spot in a more defined manner, right, So it's more predictable and more huntable. 00:05:51 Speaker 2: So basically with that that in mind, for someone that has this, almost every I mean there's farms that I hunt that it's like, oh, I wish I could go back there, but the accident is bad. And then there's the challenge of risk first reward and then and that's why I'm interviewing some of the best, most successful experts, because there's a lot of people that would say, just go in there and you've got to make it happen. And there's probably scenarios where that makes sense. 00:06:13 Speaker 5: Though. 00:06:13 Speaker 1: Well, let me give you a perfect example of this. The buck that I killed from the ground in his bed a couple of years ago. That was one of those spots. That is a fantastic spot. It holds deer, tons of sign in there. It's a thermal hub. And this is where I've made the mistakes before. I've went in there many times. If I in fact thinking about things that I've done in the past with what I know now, like I've screwed that spot up so many times just following sign, trying to hunt, playing the wind, playing the thermals, thinking that I could out compete a deer's nose in this type thermal hub like that. It's just almost impossible. But there is in every single situation, there is a time and a way to get in there. Understanding that airflow, understanding and using cover, all of these things come into play. Actually, I'll give you two examples. Actually, the last two deer that I've killed were from the ground in two spots like this, and it essentially was me proving to myself this exact thing that I'm saying is there is always a way to do it, but sometimes it is so specific that you can't go in there and pre hang a set. Sometimes you can't even hang a set, which was my situation, right, Like, if I get up in that elevation, now I don't have a shot. If I get up in that elevation, now deer can see me. I have to maintain cover the whole time. If I go in to this tree stand an hour before dark, the thermals are in the wrong direction. So I need to come in ten minutes before dark. You know, whatever time it is, however that works out. But there is always a time and place. It just might be more work or out of a lot of people's comfort zones. And that's where the beauty or the ability to modify your situation or improve your situation really comes into play. 00:07:51 Speaker 3: So there you have it. 00:07:52 Speaker 2: That's what Thomas has to say when it comes to this dilemma, and I think that potentially his strategy makes a lot of sense. And we're going to get into the next one with Bill Winki. I'd say Bill's a pretty conservative hunter in a lot of ways, just based off of listening to him and watching his content over the years. And here's what he has to say on whether it's worth the risk to go in and hunt a spot with bad access. 00:08:14 Speaker 6: You know, I've come up with my own approach to this now that I tell people this approach and they laugh at me and they think I'm kidding, But you know, really the deer hunting comes down to it's just a simple, you know, game of cat and mouse. They can't know that they're being hunted. Since they know they're being hunted, then they're not going to move naturally. And as boat lenders, we have to have natural movement because deer drives and pushes and. 00:08:45 Speaker 3: Stuff like that. 00:08:46 Speaker 6: They're not very effective for the boat owners. So we need to move naturally in daylight so they can't know that you're hunting them. 00:08:52 Speaker 3: That's the bottom line. 00:08:53 Speaker 6: So if they if you can't get in and out of the spot, say you can get in, which you can't get out without the beer, knowing, well, maybe you can get a couple of hunts out of that burden. Season you better be very sparing in when you play those cards because you're only going to get a couple of cracks before you've educated too many deer back there and they start, you know, they lose that natural movement that you need, or you can't hunt it at all and just hunt the fringes of that area. Like let's say you got this perfect funnel on a let's say it's an eighty acre property and there's this perfect funnel, and then if I can just sit there, I'm gonna kill that buck. I'm happy. Well, you can kill that buck. You're after a whole lot of places on that eighty acre property. Don't get married to a spot that's not easy to hunt, or it's not easy to hunt. 00:09:48 Speaker 3: Without being TechEd. 00:09:49 Speaker 6: But that way and the other approach, and this is what I'm gonna play with a little bit more of this year. You just stayed to stay in there, you know. Then you know I did that one season on hunted Buck for twelve days and never once slept in my bed during those twelve days. It was either on the ground at the base of the tree or in the ground wide and I would go in and out and do all by entry and exit when it was windy during the middle of the day, because you can get away with murder even going. 00:10:23 Speaker 3: Into betting area windy. 00:10:25 Speaker 6: But when it's still, they see you easier, and they definitely hear you, you know, because the wind is moving south, you're moving the deer don't register movement as well. When everything's moving, it's sort of like you know, like you hear a whole like a background noise, you don't hear sounds as well. They're the same way with move it's pretty It was pretty amazing to me how little attention they paid to what was going on around them when it's windy. But anyway, the point is you could get in and out when it's windy. But you know, let's say it drops down and it's still in the evening. At the end of the shooting time, we think, well out and sneak my way out. Now you're not sneaking out the same thing in the morning when you're trying to go in it's bit calm and you're crunching your way back in there. Yeah, you know, it's terrible every day knows. So that's the other options. It's not as it's not as far out there is what you think. Because everybody has a spike cap out. I don't even think twice, oh yeah, this's gonna spike you up on that mountain over there. Well, they don't think twice. So this is just spike cap the deer, and it works really well. It seems, like I said, it seems pretty foreign because people are used to doing it. But I think you'd be surprised and how comfortable you can be and how effective that is when you're not coming and going all the time, and not only leaving set, but all that noise that goes with it, especially when it's calm out. So you know, the simple advice is just don't hunt that spot. That's the simple advice. And then they gave you a really long. 00:12:06 Speaker 2: Two What if you had a counter So imagine there's a stop watch going from the time you go in and you're spike camping for white tails, and so that's one version of the simulation, and you think you can, you know, kill the buck you're after in three days, so you know, seventy two hours, let's say, or you have to stop watch when you're only hunting that deer going in and out, and maybe it takes twelve sits, fourteen sits. If you end up actually killing that deer, what do you think would it be potentially more efficient? Because obviously three days spike camping for white tails is a major time commitment. 00:12:42 Speaker 3: But do you think it could be more efficient? 00:12:44 Speaker 6: I think if you catch the right day, like we were talking, or accounts mentioned, or you only have a certain number of opportunities there before you you've educated them, and you know, again, it could come down to intel. If you run a lot sell cameras, you could push that information overload to the point where you only go in there where you know the buckets that you know, and you roll the dice with the risk saying, well, it's you know, it's kind of like high risk, high reward. You know, I hopefully can get in today, but the risk is pretty high. 00:13:20 Speaker 3: At least educate some here. 00:13:22 Speaker 6: You could play in the game that way too, But again, like I mentioned earlier, it's just me. 00:13:26 Speaker 3: It's my philosophy. 00:13:28 Speaker 6: I don't want to have all the information. I kind of like being really surprised when not really surprised, but like excited when the buck I'm putting shows up. I don't want to get in that position. I think we've got this. 00:13:39 Speaker 3: Conversation even before you and I work. 00:13:41 Speaker 6: I don't want to be in that position where I'm disappointed it it doesn't show up. You know what I'm saying. I want to just hunt and hunt and then be excited when he does, rather than the opposite. And if we have too much information available, because there's a balance, you know, obviously, I need to know enough stuff not wasting my time. But I don't want to know so much that I feel like a god in corner just doesn't feel the same to me. But it's not illegal, so there's nothing wrong with it. It's just isn't my style. 00:14:12 Speaker 2: So that's all Bill has to say about that for now. Now let's get into skips Lie on his take on this same question and dilemma we've all faced. All right, there, I was shed hunting. I remember last year. There's a spot on my farm. It's absolutely tore up. There's trails everywhere, there's scrapes, rubs. It just feels like the hair on the back of your neck goes straight up and you just feel like you can kill a giant buck there. But the axis is really bad. How do I hunt it? Should I hunt it? 00:14:41 Speaker 5: You should hunt it. 00:14:44 Speaker 4: I'm gonna guess most people listening to this, and maybe I'll just make a assumption with you that you're a rough hunter. I like hunting November, and that's how I used to be when I was younger, especially, and when I was younger, I didn't and have the ability to be like I'm going to go put in a food plot and hunt near your food plot, you know, and even today I go sit way back in the timber. 00:15:08 Speaker 5: So I do this even to this day. 00:15:09 Speaker 4: So let's just put this in the rut hunting category, or you know early rut with like, hey, late October, he probably is there, and then in November he's starting to get all over the place, but hopefully still in there. So what I would do then is just I would set up a few different spots in there and go in like super super early in the morning where the access isn't great, and I would just hunt a few times strategically when the conditions are right, and I would get in there super early, and if you have the energy. This one's cliche, this one everybody's heard a million times. But I would go in there super early, and I would just sit there all day. If it's a giant buck and the access isn't great, just sit there all day and you know, is it Are you gonna shoot that deer at noon? Probably not? But is there a chance? Yeah, there's a real chance of doing it. So what's the advantage of getting out of there? There isn't one. You're just gonna screw it up even worse. So those spots. I just the deep spots. I just go in there very strategically. I don't go in there too often. I try and have a little bit of variety, and then I just go in there when it's just about right colder, I know that you're moving well, you know, maybe there's some mentel where I think that buck's in the area. 00:16:33 Speaker 5: I go there. I'll sit all day, and. 00:16:36 Speaker 4: If you screw something up, that's part of the game too, you know, it's not nothing's a guarantee. And even even stands that are bulletproof, you still can screw those up too. So I would just go in there strategically, don't over hunt it, sit all day, and you know, might work out, it might not work out. And every hunter whose season be like, yeah, I've had a lot of times it did not work out. That's fine. That's what makes it fun. 00:17:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I feel oftentimes people are they're like, oh man, you know what, I know, I shouldn't be back there, but I do feel like that's my best opportunity. And then I personally think a lot of people it's October twelfth and not like when you're you said rut, And so in most parts of the Midwest, it's not October twelfth. They're like, oh, you know, October twelfth, I have to go in there and try it. And then October eighteenth. It rolls around. Do you think that's the wrong approach or do you think that's no harm, no foul. 00:17:36 Speaker 4: You know, if I tried it, so this one's gonna be a little bit different answer. But if I tried that in Michigan, well, if I tried October twelve, it would never. 00:17:45 Speaker 5: Work because those deer were still so freaked out. 00:17:47 Speaker 4: And nocturnal, and and then I had to reprogram my brain. When I come to better states that weren't as pressured, deer act actually acted a little bit natural. You could actually do that in more so, it depends on the state if you're if you're in an area and people can't quite grasp, like things in Michigan might get just absolutely pounded. But I've never seen that, so I don't understand what he's saying. Well, there's Harry's that get just unbelievable amount of pressure and it's like October you're almost wasting your time. 00:18:15 Speaker 5: Well that's what I came from. 00:18:17 Speaker 4: And when I went to the Better States, where I'm like you know, Iowa, Kansas, and Illinois even wherever. And I'm like, well, I gotta wait till the rot to hunt. 00:18:27 Speaker 3: I just have to. 00:18:28 Speaker 4: Also, I'm like, wait, some of these deer moving in October, they actually are I might be able to get in there in a cold morning in October and shoot a giant in October. Well that was foreign to me. I'm like, no, that's not possible because I'm from Michigan. Well, I had to reprogram my brain, so I think it's it's actually possible if you if you're like, whoa, it's October twelve, and these deer are not like intensely pressured, you could go in there strategically if it was like a really cold day, or you thought the movement would be really good. The bear matt pressure went in and went in there October twelve. Just don't go in there like three times in a row or something. You know, it's kind of common sense. You kind of know when you're over pressuring things. You know, I think a good hunter knows when he's over pressuring things. But on the flip side that you get your guys who are so conservative that they don't really they'll never go in there and that's just human nature. How how much risk are you willing to take on things? And I like that, especially with deer hunting. What's the downside? The downside I don't get a deer, Okay, no big deal. It's not like I'm like risking all the all of my livelihood or betting my house at the casino against something. 00:19:38 Speaker 5: It's it's a deer. So that's why I like. 00:19:40 Speaker 4: I like putting a little bit of risk in there, risk and reward, you know. But I just stay on the fringe. I basically just hunt right by the road. I won't even go into the farm. Yeah, okay, you're not screwing anything up, but your chance for success is so minimal too, So don't be that conservative again, kind of a common I like a little bit of risks, So I'd say, i'd say push in there at the right times and just don't overdo it. And if you notice, like I went in there five times and now I don't see anything, you're probably screwing that spot up and you need to rethink that. 00:20:15 Speaker 3: That's what Skip has to say. 00:20:16 Speaker 2: I think there's a misconception with a lot of these folks that they maybe treat their farm really carefully. But a lot of these guys started hunting on public or permission all at one point, and then you know they built up to where they own a farm and can take a little bit different approach. But skip lets you know on hey, if I was hunting eighty acres, forty acres, whatever the case may be, that's the strategy I think that's most relatable. Next up we have Don Higgins on his answer to this question. Everyone talks about access, and someone maybe got permission on a new farm, or maybe they realize, hey, this access deal is actually really important, and I feel the best spot on my farm where I have the highest hods to kill buck has bad access. 00:20:57 Speaker 3: How do I hunt? Where do I start? Should I? 00:21:01 Speaker 5: Well? Should you? That's what the real question is. 00:21:05 Speaker 7: I've said for years stand without good access is not a good stand. I don't care what kind of signs there, what else is there. If you don't have good access, you don't have a good stand. All other factors thrown out the wind. 00:21:20 Speaker 5: It doesn't matter. 00:21:22 Speaker 7: It starts with good access. And I remember years ago legendary bow hunter Roger Rothar said, whenever you hang a stand, you should be able to instantly rattle off five or six reasons why that stands there while you're putting it in that tree. And at the time, you know, I was just a young pop it didn't make too much sense to me. It's like, well, you know, there's a good tree, and twenty yards away there's a trail, so that's why my stands here. Now it's way more than that, and it starts with access. I put my stand in this tree because I can access it across this open field with a northwest wind straight in my face. That same northwest wind is going to allow a buck to walk past that tree and feel comfortable doing so. And I plan to be here the first week of November when the bucks are cruising. This is a spot that aught a lot of cruising bucks should pass by. You know, it's going to be better in the morning than the evening, so I'm only going to hunt this spot in the morning. In addition to all this, this giant oak tree right in front of my stand tree is dropping acorns at that time of the year. And you should be able to just go on and on and on and make a long list for why you put a stand in a specific tree, But it all comes down to access. If you don't have good access, it's not a good stand. 00:22:36 Speaker 2: So if you can come up with six reasons but access is not. 00:22:39 Speaker 5: One of them, it's not a good stand. Don't hunt there. 00:22:43 Speaker 2: If you followed down for any period of time, you probably could have guessed that was going to be his answer to this question. And his farm is exceptionally well set up. He's very conservative when it comes to hunting, but very aggressive when it comes to managing habitat and setting up a farm. So in that scenario, you can get away with being really conservative because you've been able to develop the farm really well or figure out a way to stack the odds in your favor and make it to where you don't have to hunt the quote unquote best spot if it has bad access. 00:23:12 Speaker 3: Next up we have Steve Hanson. Here we go. 00:23:14 Speaker 2: The best botto of my farm I feel has bad or not great access. Okay, how do I hunt that spot? 00:23:21 Speaker 8: Since you started off the conversation with it sounding like it's more of a rout funnel type spot, so we're going to be trying to access this location for a rut hunt. What I'm gonna recommend is whatever path you have that you think has the least amount of chances of moving deer. But you're gonna have to go in in the dark and come out in the dark. It's gonna be all day sets. And then you're also going to have to minimize the amount of trips that you hunt it. Therefore, because every time you're hunting it, you're using up some in potential, yeah, some potential. You know, you're disrupting the flow of deer. So you want to make sure you're hunting it on the peak prime days, exactly right wind directions, not leaving anything to chance. And once you use up one of your times of going in there, you want to make the most of it by sitting all day for sure, that'd be the biggest thing that I could think, and going in extra early coming out you do a lot less damage to the you know, deer that are living on your farm, moving in the dark, they're a different creature after dark. There seemed more accepting of a little bit of intrusion. But that's how I would manage that sort of of a situation. 00:24:29 Speaker 3: So that might mean taking the long way, taking the. 00:24:32 Speaker 8: Long way whatever it takes to do the minimum amount of damage you can, and then staying you know the greatest amount of time that you can to hunt that. 00:24:39 Speaker 3: How many chances do you think you may have? 00:24:42 Speaker 2: And I understand it's very situational, but you have decades and decades of experience, You've helped a lot of people, you know, maybe navigate this exact scenario. Like how many tries do you think you get? And the reason I ask is because there's probably going to be a cold front October twelfth and maybe you really maybe that's not quite the time for this imaginary spot, right, I would say eight out of ten guys are going to go hunt that spot on that time that's not quite ready to do that. 00:25:08 Speaker 8: Sure, yeah, I would avoid that scenario. I would because what you're going to do in that case, if it's if it's a rut funnel and it's not that phase of the rut, you're going to educate the local does who's at whatever deer are using that place at that time are going to become educated to it, and then that's going to change how they're using that spot. So I would avoid it until truly peaked days. How many times you can hunt it, Like you said, every place is different, but realistically three or four without too much, I think, and you could still expect some you know, you're doing a little bit of damage, but you should get some success if you If in three or four sits the place isn't working like you think it is, it may not be the spot you think it is too. You know, if you've given it the best days of the year, gone in extra early, you know, three or four times, you I would think you'd have an opportunity or you know, see your target, bucker whatever. But if it hasn't happened in three or four times, and I'd reevaluate the whole situation. 00:26:05 Speaker 3: I think Steve's answer is really relatable. 00:26:07 Speaker 2: Make the timing right, go in there, take a swing or two, hope for the best. If it is truly the best spot and it has all the terrain features that make sense, go for the fences, give it a try. And I think that's probably what most people would fall into. But the key thing is being thoughtful and methodical when you go in to the really good spot with really bad access. Next up we have Jeff Sturgis. Jeff, I would say, is a pretty conservative hunter. I'm also very thoughtful with his access and everything else. So here's what he has to share about it. Okay, the best spot on my farm I postseason scattered it. I found this awesome rut funnel. It's just tore up with sign and man, I just feel like I need to hunt in there. But access is so important. So the best spot on my farm I feel has bad access. How do I hunt this this area? 00:26:56 Speaker 9: What's the bad access? Thanks ends on so this I'll give you an example. Last year, Buck, I took over a water hole. It's right along the back corner of a field, the neighbors field that is full of deer all night. It's a hidden corner from the road. It's crazy because you drive by and people always think, like, even with food plots, it's got to be this three acre field. You got to make it in like quarter acre half acre section, screen it off and all these deer. 00:27:24 Speaker 5: Can use it. 00:27:24 Speaker 9: Then, But how many times have you found a hidden corner and a giant agg field and all the deer there and like three or four acres Because it's the one year that's the most important, and they don't mind being on top of each other in a food source like that as long as they're hidden. And so that's kind of taught me a lot to even sectioning off food plots. I think it's a. 00:27:41 Speaker 5: Little bit overrated. 00:27:42 Speaker 9: But in that area, if you walk into that stand location, that's a beautiful rough funnel. It's a line will switch grass on the outside. You go only about ten yards into the woods and then you look down at a bench system and then it drops off super steep from there. It's like a bow tie. Everything comes into that funnel. We have a water hole there which enhances the movement. You don't create movement with the waterhole. You complement the movement and make it a little bit better. It's like a sweetener. But in that area, if I walk in the morning, great rot funnel. If I walk there in the morning, I'm going to spook deer. They're going to be out in those fields and I'll likely ruin my set before it even gets daylight. If I try to go in there at three in the afternoon, it's getting dark at six thirty. Then if I get out, I've spoke in the stand. 00:28:24 Speaker 3: It's a one and done. 00:28:25 Speaker 5: I'm ruining the whole area. 00:28:26 Speaker 9: So what I choose to do in a spot like that, it's a post day break stand entrance, you're taking bad access post daybreak stand entrance, you wait until the field clears. You sit from three four hundred yards away, have a little no I can sneak up, look over the coast is clear, and then you walk straight into that stand location. It's only ten yards off the woods. I'm only exposing myself ten yards in that spot. It's a real narrow constriction. Deer have to be right on top of me if I walk in. I went in I think at seven thirty last year, approximately half hour forty minutes after daylight, and then shot them at eleven thirty. That and I had to get out probably, you know, in that day if it was getting dark at five thirty, I pro I would have had to get out by two two thirty because I don't want deer starting to get behind me or my winds blown back out into the field. That's one example. If you're on private land and you have poor access, a lot of times that poor access is determined by food source location. You're having to walk through a food source location to get back to a betting area. So you do that in the morning, you spook them out. And I keep saying betting area. You keep saying, you said rut funnel I'm thinking, I'm getting to the backside of a betting area, wait for that mature buck to come back that I'm targeting, And so I look at like, for one, you go way around that food source. We've had times where it's literally we're on forty acres, it goes up four hundred and fifty feet in elevation, and we're taking thirty seven minutes to get to a stand if we take one one minute break in thirty six minutes if you don't take a break, but it's thirty six minutes uphill all the way around, so that we're going all the way around the food, get on top of the food three hundred and fifty yards away and hundreds of feet in elevation above the food, so you can wait for those deer to get back. If you take the easier route, go through the food, and it's a lot easier. We could take our we could take a eat bike, we'd take our quiet cat right up through there, right up the gut. But we would we wouldn't we wouldn't have a hunt that morning. 00:30:13 Speaker 10: And so. 00:30:15 Speaker 9: Another another case, you might have food on private land that's just ruining your hunt. I'd rather take that food out and have good access so that I can get to the backside of a bedding area and a rout funnel stand like that, then have that food source and not be able to get to that stand location because every time I go in and out, I'm going to blow that food out. 00:30:33 Speaker 5: And then that. 00:30:34 Speaker 9: Also means when we're getting into some of those stands, one way, we're going out the food way, so we're coming out at eleven o'clock through the food, or we went way around that food at six am to get into the stand before that time. You always have to think about too, we're the deer down wind of your stand. You know a lot of times people say, well forty five minutes is that magic time to get in your stand in the morning, an hour before daylight? Well, what if the deer going through a horse pasture before, you know, pre dawn, and they could go through that horse pasture pre dawn. It's open, it's a it's a shortcut for them to get to their bedding area, but they would never go through that horse passure, open area or open woods during daylight, especially a mature bock. So I don't want to sit there for an hour blowing my scent into that open area. I want to get there just in time, and so I'm getting there just when it's gray light, use a little bit of darkness to get into my stand, and then I'm really only exposing my wind in that area for five ten minutes before it gets daylight, and I'm really limiting the amount of deer that might get down wind to me before daylight. And then there's some of those stands where it's just a steep rock drop off, there's no deer, it's a lake, it's a house or something you're blowing you're sent into and you can get in there an hour early, get in there really early. So then a lot of times, you know, manipulation of the habitat, walking way around all those are you know, parts of it. But at the same time, using the timing of when to get into a stand, whether that be a post daybreak just in time or an hour before to get into a stand to help with your access is really something needs to be considered too. 00:32:11 Speaker 2: Is there a part on your farm that you wish you could hunt, but you just say, well, the axis isn't good enough, I can't hunt there. 00:32:18 Speaker 9: There's a lot of places like that we have you know. I'll give you example that we hunted fourteen years in Wisconsin and the stand location our property thirteen years get mixed up time flies two properties two thousand and two over there, but it was about thirty acres woods, and there's a core area of about fifteen to eighteen acres right in the middle of it that we could just never go into. Could never even consider going into the food plots there. We had three quarters of acre food plots. Could never sit on them with a boat because they're too big, they're too exposed, couldn't get in or out without spoken deer, so we couldn't hunt on it. The majority of my food plots in Minnesota on our farm, we cannot hunt with a bow because we can't hunt them without spooking deer. 00:33:04 Speaker 3: There is one. 00:33:05 Speaker 9: Hundred and forty acre area with field on the outside about one hundred and ten acres of woods in the middle. We bought the land in June of twenty twenty, and I did not step foot other than a vehicle ride with the real estate agent in April to look at the inside of the property on three or four trails. I didn't step foot in about one hundred acres out of that one hundred and forty acres until after the season in January, because I couldn't hunt it anyways. Because I got in there, I just spoked deer. It was in the center. It goes down in if I'm in there, the wind's swirling. Now we since identified points that are down there, and we can manipulate the wind a little bit, or use wind in the morning to come down one channel and go up another channel. That's an entirely different topic of hunting hills and thermals. But even then there's still that core area of probably eighty out of that original one hundred acres we couldn't hunt. That we can't hunt, and I'm okay with that. It's just kind of like you just write it off. We've worked on the habitat in there, and we've built bedding areas. I expect as long as they can hold that deer in there during the daylight, then we have a really good chance of shooting that buck during the season. So and that goes for a public land too. You don't want to identify the best spot in the woods to hold mature box to actually hunt. You want to identify those areas that can be protected so you can hunt around them and then being methodical and precise, take that buck to the very high percentage of the time a year after year that's in that spot because you preserve it. It's not a woman dumb. 00:34:51 Speaker 2: Once again, I think you can draw a parallel of someone that's able to really design a parcel to have it hunt really effectively. These folks are not going in and hunting these spots, but if you fall into that category. 00:35:03 Speaker 3: You have the ability to do that. 00:35:04 Speaker 2: Keep that in mind for this upcoming season of how can I potentially make that best spot maybe a little more accessible, How can I duplicate it? What can I do to make it better? And that's what I got from Jeff. Next up, we have Bobby Kendall. He hunts a lot of different farms and has a lot of projects going on at all different times, and so a lot of times he's hunting on the fly and it's maybe not a fully developed farm, maybe it's under construction, if that makes sense. And so here's what he has to say about the dilemma we all face as deer hunters. Let's say someone says, man, I was shed hunting. I remember from the last season there was this spot. The axis is bad. I'm gonna bust your coming in and out. There's not really a good spot for me to shoot my win with a low probability of getting busted. 00:35:48 Speaker 3: How do I hunt this spot? Or should I hunt this spot? 00:35:51 Speaker 5: All right? 00:35:51 Speaker 11: So it kind of depends on it's situational, like the time of year. So like in October, everything is always risk reward. Is it worth the risk to go in here to hunt? 00:36:00 Speaker 5: All right? So last year we did a series. 00:36:03 Speaker 11: On an undeveloped and versus developed farm, and the undeveloped farm on the big start contrast is the access is the nearest good because you're not creating perfect access. So in October what it looks like is, you know, you have to you have to pick your days. And for me, those days are what I call magic X day. It's a day where the pressure is rising and cloud covers falling, humidity's falling, temperatures falling, and the perfect days that you know the Brona crosses like thirty point two by the evening sit So those are the days I'm looking for, and I'm only going in when risk reward tips and it's worth the risk to go in because I have a high chance of seeing him that night. So October pick the night's high pressure fronts the day the first day of the high pressure. Now in November, you know it kind of it gets more forgiving, so you can get a little bit more aggressive. Plus you're hunting different type spots on that particular farm. I didn't start hunting that deer until November, and he was way back in the back of the farm. I had to literally go through like four or five bean fields in order to get back where he was he was at, and I had a really good funnel rough funnel stand back there, but the access I know I was going to blow the whole farm up going back there. So what my strategy was was wait till eight thirty nine in the morning, come up here, glass my way back to the stand, and hunt these inside corner funnels. Because inside corner funnels are awesome because your wind is always good for you, and it's also generally good for the deer because you're on the down wind side of the cover and it's a funnel. So I was hunting these inside corners because the access is so good to the inside corner. So maybe you don't go to your best spot yet because the access is better than these inside corners. And then you hunt toll like two thirty three o'clock in the afternoon, and from you know, the fourth or fifth to the thirteenth, the deer were after the big mature one. I would rather hunt that time period anyway. And so then you're in the farm and you're out of the farm on a knee bike. Maybe you're not leaving scent and so you're you're hedging that pressure. And then maybe when things are just the electricity goes off and you're just the light. I mean, you're just like it's on fire. That's when you can dive into those spots and it's like you almost. 00:38:19 Speaker 3: Can do no wrong. 00:38:19 Speaker 11: I mean, I remember a deer coming down winding me at one o'clock in the afternoon one year, big mature deer looked up at me, smelled me, took off, and I killed him in the same spot the next night. Like so you know, it's like at a certain point, that's when you die. It's like a it's like a it's like a laddering up. It's like a risk reward, and the further we get into the chaos, it starts tipping and you just gotta be able to gauge when to when to throttle her up and take a risk. And for me, a lot of times, like opening day one season, I'm like, this is ground zero. I'm gonna be in a tree somewhere. I don't even know what tree. I'm gonna go in there in the dark and a climber and I'm gonna be perched. Yeah, that would be like the ultimate, like because that's when I get the gun in the hand and all of a sudden, the risk reward. 00:39:06 Speaker 2: And there's so many tangibles happen on you know, any opening firearm day right right across the country. Two questions, how many Magic X days? Because I think when people hear this, it's going to be October seventeenth and the temperature drop ten degrees and it's you know, maybe all the conditions are right, and they're like, man, Bobby said, risk for's reward, I'm feeling good. So when does the gun go off? Where You're like, Okay, this is not a great spot. I'm probably gonna get three to four cracks at this spot with this particular deer I'm hunting, Like when does when does that go off? 00:39:36 Speaker 11: So that risk reward is ever so slightly going like this as we get through October, because in my opinion, there's three things that affect a deer to move in daylight. The big deer we're after in October, and you know, one of those is moon phase. I'm a big moon phase guy, and like that week leading up to the full moon, especially in October. So like on a year that the full moon happens early and that that wadd's already been blown. So it's like, Okay, I don't have that in my bag of tricks forward, so maybe I get a little more aggressive. 00:40:08 Speaker 3: But if the full moon is on October twenty. 00:40:10 Speaker 11: Ninth, and you have that window lining up with the other, with the other, the second of the three, which is date phase or mindset, all the same thing. It's the mindset of the deer date phase mindset. The end of October, his mindset is more rambunctious. He's more wound up now, he's starting to sniff like so you if you can, if it's later in the month, you can get more aggressive. You know, if you get that full moon at the end of the month and you have that to look forward to, maybe you get less aggressive, not as quick because you have such a powerful thing coming up. And then obviously the third part of that so date phase, mindset moon. The third part is the environmental. That's the part you can't predict. That's what you're just talking about with the magic X days. But it's just there is no hard rights and wrongs. It's kind of a but it's always is it worth it? Yet if your guts like probably about if you're walking in the stand, you're like, I shouldn't be doing this, which I still do this. Sometimes you just got it. 00:41:14 Speaker 3: It's just it's just not worth it. 00:41:15 Speaker 5: Because October is a gift. 00:41:17 Speaker 11: It's a glass house that you can you can change his habits and and you have this nice it's the longest period of time that you have in the season to play the game doing what he's doing, and so you can be very very precise and wait, you know, you get in November and all that changes. But a lot of times, like when I'm going into the season, I'm always trying to be in front of the deer, right, So like a lot of times when I'm going into the season, I already know when that full moon is, so I'm thinking about that and and I'm so I'm kind of like, Okay, that's this is my week. And as we start coming into that, now, every high pressure front from day one through is going to be awesome. Unpressured, the deer you're after should be on his feet somewhere in daylight. I mean they don't. They don't generally, unpressure just just lay through that. I mean it, they just get rambunctious and they they have to go and tear stuff up in marked territory. And so, you know, just being ahead of the deer's mindset risk, risk, risk versus reward. 00:42:26 Speaker 5: Trying to think like a deer. And uh, it changed. Every year is a little different. 00:42:30 Speaker 11: But if you get if you get the perfect front in in that five day window leading up to the full moon, it's the most magical day of the year. I mean, I go to the stand like this. I mean, you know, it's just it's it's it's just the most powerful day of this season. It's a blue it's a it's a morning that starts out gloomy. It even depends on how that front hits, Like if the front hits at night, it's not as if the if the morning is gloomy and stagnant and in a little warmer and then you feel that wind hit and it kind of. 00:43:04 Speaker 5: Looks like this where the sky starts. 00:43:06 Speaker 11: Breaking up and the air is drying and cooling, and by prime time it's gin clear and it's dead calm, and it's cold and crisp. It's fire like I'm going I'm sitting there like this, you know, because it's it's the best day of the season. And it only if you can line that up in that week leading up the full moon. It's the best day of the season, you know, to get on a deer, to kill a deer that you're on that you know what he's doing. 00:43:33 Speaker 3: There, you have it. 00:43:33 Speaker 2: That's what Bobby thinks on this burning question. And last, but not least, we have Mark Kenyon on his perspective of risk for reward. Consuming some of Mark's content over the year. Seems like he's gotten more aggressive with his game plan and here's what he has to say. 00:43:48 Speaker 3: Okay, this past spring, you're a shed hunting. 00:43:52 Speaker 2: Maybe you ended up in the sanctuary on your farm or the very very back part, and you're like, man, this is awesome. There's all this great sign, all these trails converge as a betting area. 00:44:03 Speaker 3: Just right over this direction. The axis is really bad. It's bad. 00:44:07 Speaker 2: You're gonna scared deer coming in, scared deer coming out. How and should you hunt the best spot on the farm with bad access? 00:44:16 Speaker 10: Yeah, I've had this, you know, I've come across myself plenty of times too, and so I've wrestled with it a lot, and what I have kind of settled on is that, you know, the best best spot is a place that has everything going for plus good access. So this place is never going to be like a ten out of ten. It's going to be like an eight out of ten because it's great, but you can't get it at all. That's that the reality of a lot of these kinds of places that are like a core habitat feature with all this movement coming into it, like naturally, those places just always tend to be and hard to get two spots. So this is a pretty common thing, and I think that my view you is that they are still worth hunting because they if it's that good, if it's that much of a hub, there are moments when the reward outweighs the risk. And that's like every single time you look at a stand site or an ambush location. There's always these two sides of the scale. It's like, what's the potential for reward, what's the potential for risk? Like what's going to be the I'm going to burn some powder ons, I'm going to damage things by going in. There's also the chance that this could happen. And so I think when you find a location like that, you really need to think long and hard about when is the best of the best moment for this place, Like why is this place great? 00:45:39 Speaker 3: What makes it great? 00:45:41 Speaker 10: And what's the type of year that makes it great, And what's the set of conditions that will make this like the best of the best time to hunt the best of best place? 00:45:48 Speaker 3: That's number one, and then number two. 00:45:51 Speaker 10: I'm also thinking, Okay, I know I've got bad access, but what set of circumstances or situation would give me the least bad access on the stage. So maybe so I'll give you an example. I have a place like this that is like smack down in the middle of like some of the best cover in one of the farms I hunt, And it's a place that I've been able to see because I've never I've infrequently gone into the core of this but I can oftentimes see into this brushy, nasty stuff, and so I can see like year after a year after year. 00:46:20 Speaker 3: Man, this is where they're always coming through. 00:46:23 Speaker 10: Like there's always every time there's a good buckham after he's always coming through in and out, in and out of this. But like, no matter how you go about trying to get in there or to sit in there, deer gonna win you. There's so many deer there are on all sides in you. Any way you try to access it, you're going to have to go through bedding cover or trying to get out. There's food on all sides too, So there's no good way to get in it, and there's no really good way to hunt it without it being like you're on edge. But the least bad would be if you had like a due east or a do west wind. There's like a it's there's a ditch and so there's a couple of trees. You could hunt right on this ditch, and if you can run your way right along that ditch, you would minimize your wind issues. If you could walk in that ditch in the morning and right alongside of it super early, you can minimize the access issues. 00:47:12 Speaker 3: But you're definitely gonna blow some stuff up. 00:47:14 Speaker 10: So you're saying, Okay, I'm gonna I know I'm gonna cast some damage here, but I'm gonna pick the days when I've got the best chance of getting away with a little bit of it. And then also I'm choosing that day when, like everything else is perfect. So for this location, it's like this spot the best, the best of the best day would be during peak of road activity, when there is a great cold front that comes through and that's like a wet or windy day, So I could slip in there and at least not make a ton of noise. If I could get that set of conditions with that correct wind, it would be worth the risk on that day. But there's like two days maybe if I one or two days and that's it. Yeah, And if I go in there, I take my swing like I'm swinging for the fences, and if it doesn't work out, well, I just I know I've burned this place out a bit, and so I know, hey, yeah, it's going to be a week or two or something before that area is really going to be hot again. But it could be worthwhile. So I think that at least in the places that I hunt. I don't hunt big farms. I don't own big farms. I don't hunt Niola or Illinois or Ohio like most of the time. So when I think about this question, I'm thinking about this like at home in Michigan, Michigan, and if you want to kill a mature buck, oftentimes it has to be in a place like that because those mature bucks so rarely come out on the edges, so rarely spent time in the open. 00:48:36 Speaker 3: We'really easy to. 00:48:36 Speaker 10: Access places, and I think, to be clear, like this is like my answer is the way it is because I'm primarily hunting in like high pressure areas, relatively small farms. 00:48:48 Speaker 3: I'm thinking Michigan when I answer this question right. 00:48:51 Speaker 10: It might be different if I've got hundreds and hundreds of acres in Iowa or Illinois or. 00:48:55 Speaker 3: Nebraska or wherever. But you know where I'm at in Michigan. It's all small. 00:49:00 Speaker 10: You know, it's forties and sixties and twenties, and there's sixty other guys in my square mile, and you're just not going to get a mature buck moving out in the easy stuff and the open stuff on the edges. Ninety nine percent of the time. So if ever you want to get a chance that one to five year old that's in your square mile, probably have to go into these like core places. 00:49:22 Speaker 3: And so I'm willing to take a. 00:49:24 Speaker 10: Big swing at those core places a few times when the time's right, because if I don't, I'll probably never get a chance of that too. And so you have to take calculated risks. It's just about being smart when. 00:49:34 Speaker 3: You do so. 00:49:35 Speaker 2: Throughout the last ten years, when you've you've done that strategy, how many times does it typically work? And then does it feel are you nervous going into that or it's like, hey, this is whatever happens happens. Yeah, and I know I'm having some risk, but man, I'm putting myself in what I feel the best spot. 00:49:52 Speaker 10: Yeah, I would say still most of the time it doesn't work. But you know, you know, I can think of the last handful of the years, a couple of times it's worked. Yeah, that's the specific place I'm talking about, this exact location. I took one of these big swings and my target buck walked by it ten yards, but it was like ten yard ten minutes before shooting it, so I could see him. But I couldn't shoot him, and I was like, oh it worked, Yeah, came ten minutes too early. So it's always calculated risk. Sometimes it's worthwhile. But I will say, like I am still always nervous in those moments. You just walk around eggshells. You're like, ah, this is this could be a disaster. But I think I've gotten to the point where I go into it knowing that and I kind of have a certain like resignation to Okay, this is gonna be like super fun or might blow up, and I just need to be okay with that today and then like give it up and like be. 00:50:41 Speaker 3: Okay with whatever happens. Whatever happens happens. 00:50:44 Speaker 10: And if you go into it with that attitude, I think it's it's okay. And I will tell you, the more you do this and the more you kind of come to to see the results, the more I've become comfortable with that, because you know, while deer survival machines they're also not genius, you can sometimes get away with more than you think, and so being willing to take those swings and be aggressive with the right times is worth the occasional total disaster because you can recover sometimes faster than you might think too. 00:51:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was probably the widest variety of answers on this question throughout this series, and I think if someone listening to this, they need to figure out who's hunting style resonates the most with me. I think all the answers were right in their own hunting style setups. You know, the list goes on, but I think if you're listening to this, man, I feel a little confused after listening to this episode, think of each guest and what models how you hunt and and your goals and everything else, because a lot of the guys they're hunting one specific buck that is it, and so their answers were quite a bit different. The other thing that people really need to listen is when they said they would go into this area, and that's probably one of the most important things when it comes with the variety of answers for this episode. But at the end of the day, everyone has a spot like this in the back of their mind, and that's why I asked this question. And usually to your point, it is in relation to some sort of terrain to where maybe you can figure out a way to stack the deck just a little bit in your favor by utilizing the train to have your scent go in a certain direction or maybe from an access standpoint, but definitely it can't be your favorite spot that you have twenty times a year. That was very very clear throughout this episode. So I hope everyone really enjoyed this episode. Next week, we have another burning question that's probably crossed our minds at some point, and it's what's keeping Maybe you're having a good year, a good year, good year, and you just want to be great, You want to get to the next level, and you want to learn how are these guys finding more and more success seemingly year after year, And so we're going to figure out if there's any trends or anything that you can address this upcoming season. 00:52:54 Speaker 3: All right, there, you guys have it. 00:52:56 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed this week's episode of Back forty dive into all the questions we've all had at some point, and I hope that you have a little better game plan on the spot that came to mind when we started this episode of that really great spot with bad access, and maybe you're equipped to make a better game plan after hearing from eight different folks, you can find one that is relatable to you and your strategy, what you have access to, and hopefully you have a little bit better opportunity in that spot if you decide to hunt it. Next week we have the next burning question and it is what is the biggest mistake hunters make from being good to great? So you can start brainstorming now and we'll see you next week on back forwarding.