00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming in you shirtless, severely fog bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. That's nice, thank you. Uh what do you find like? You know a lot of bulls have crazy bugles? Yeah, I mean they're they're spread across the board from just sometimes you have some bull he's like, ah, you know the ones it sound like they broke their larynx somehow. Yeah. We were in not to diverge too quick, too fast. But I was in the Bob Marshall in two thousand and twelve and the places untouched basically in some of these areas, and we have a bold of bagle that sounds like an owl that I would have never believed that if he didn't answer me like five, you know, within that five second range. And he did it again and it was like an owl hooting. I'm like what, Then you give me an example. I almost can and then this could just do it without a call, but just do it, or come as close as you can to mimick you what he's doing, but not even really that thump, it's just kind of an owl hoot sound. And then on that same day we walked a half mile down the ridge and one sound like a donkey and it did it twice like a heehaw the type sound. I'm like, wow, this is I felt like I was in some crazy land like this, These aren't elk anymore. But we called them both into twenty five yards and like, you know, they were elk? Can they bagle that way? The whole way in just crazy when you're out, you know. That's kind of what I guess I'm getting at is like we talked about this bunch of this spring when we were all hot on talking about turkeys. Is you know, you work so hard to get the right sounds, you know, you work so hard to get like high level turkey calm, like which I'm not great at. But then when you're out in the turkey woods, birds will come in doing stuff that you know, Yeah, it's just crazy. Like we had a guy after we had this conversation, We had a guy send us a video. It was the hand that comes in and like, um, not think he yelled like twenty seven times in a row. Oh, I thought it was in the sixties. Was it just just like where everybody's like, well, you should never yep more than you know. Yeah, and if and if we sat and if we sat out in the woods and we're leaning against a tree, and my body's gonna start calm, and he gets going and he hits sixty. Right, if you're looking at like, what in the world are you doing so in the bugle and thing like when you're ripping bugles like that, do you mess around with doing the crazy ones or do you think it works? Like do you think it's it works best to have like that clean really like quintessential escalating topped out pitch bugle, like the perfect bugle sold you rip crazy bugles too. So when I'm locating, So that's just my standard. Walking down the ridge line, I try to get that high note that rings your ears, and I do that one the same every time, you know, call me boring vanilla ice cream. Just I'm gonna get the high note. I'm gonna get high note. I'm gona get the high note. But once I get in on a bowl, then I try to And that's where I think becoming a good caller may help, is I try to mimic that bowl exactly. If he is that weird donkey bowl or whatever, I might mimic him or really if he gets that crazy. Maybe not, but most of your bowls that I would say within your general sounds like if they're a lip baller, which is the bugle I just did that real KNOCKI bugle through the center. If they're a high note with two chuckles, I try to match him. Um. So I just try to kind of match the bowl. I'm trying to call in and mimic him, um once we get once we get into that situation. But but for my location bugles, and I'm trying to just get something to answer. I'm pretty just playing Jane two or three note as high as I can get, you know, sent it down the canyon and then listen. If you had the okay, if you had to choose for locating note, if I said, you can bring your bronocular, you can bring optics, or you can bring a bugle man, that's a good question. So all of and and all the seminars, I do my preferred way to spot them. I'm gonna give you the easiest answer ever here. I'm gonna tell you why each I would give it to me from the game caller perspective, No, I would love I would much rather spot elk with my binoculars any day over top of of you know, than than locating with the bugle. That way, they don't know him in the world. I can sit and watch them and figure out what's going on a point. But if I had to leave my locator bugle, if I can't spot them within the first half hour of the day, then I'm screwed because now I need that that location bugle the rest of the you know, for the next two or three hours of that morning to try to get something going. So neither of them are good. But I would say, man, I would probably leave the optics if I had to pick, I'd take the location bugle. Yeah. And and again did I any two things that would be major factors would be like is it September or is it November? Right, I'm talking like yeah, So I'm the only reason I'm hoping that if I bring my location bugle, you neither spot them with naked eye. Is their elk out in the middle of opening hopefully close or they're gonna be sounding off on their own, So I don't want to necessarily leave that location bugle at the truck all my binoculars. Yeah, And to add to that, I feel like again we're gonna make a lot of uh call that call us the turkeys. But like both of those animals are like much like sort of more fun and easier to hunt when they're making sounds and when they clam up, You're like, it's completely two different things, right, And sometimes with elk you really have to be hammering to get them to start talking. You know, what are the when you do uh standard your standard locat or bugle? Well, first, can you explain what you mean by locator bugle just so people who are tracking, so you know, and we can get into the science. And I don't claim to know, but I don't even mean like I'm gonna have you dissect a bugle, But I mean, like when you say like locating, just tell people what you mean by that. So, uh, it's the idea that I'm gonna pronounce that I'm gonna elk. I'm up here on this ridgeline and I'm just looking for a response. And it's kind of a territorial thing that Herd Bowl or even that other satellite bowl. You say, hey, I'm up here, I'm and he'll answer him down here kind of that Marco Polo game, you know, so to speak, like Marco Polo. All right, now I got you. That's you know, you didn't know I wasn't real ELX. And now I can start the game, you know, figure out where the wins at. And so you're just looking for a response. You're not trying to call him in, you're not trying to threaten him, scare him anything. At that point, it's just kind of a yeah, just a quick clean all right, now I gotta I gotta pin on you. We'll figure out how to try to get on you know. And that raises a couple other questions, Uh, real quick, tell people what a satellite bowl is. So satellite bowl, Um, it's just that bowl that's kind of hanging close to that herd bowl. The herd bulls typically they've got their pecking order figured out. That herd bowl any where from you know, it could be a single cow, two cows in some places when the bull of cow ratio is high all the way down to in my area and coastal Washington, you have herds of thirty and it's not even unheard of to to have more cows than that. One big boss bull is kind of running the show, yea, or like the you know there's like a lead cow running. There's a lead cow who's saying like we're going here, but pestering them and crawling them and defending them from all comers. Yeah, she's held the chief bull. Yeah, she tells them where they're going. He kind of tells them how they're going to get there. Um was going to come along, yeah, Yeah, and he keeps them rounded up. But then these satellite bulls are you're, you know, subordinate, submature sometimes even mature bulls. You know, if you get into some of these spots, you might have a giant satellite bowl body wise and age wise, maturity wise, but that herd bowls big enough and more dominant enough to keep them just kind of on the shadows of this herd. Well, what happens throughout the day and throughout September, these satellite bowls coming and try to pick off a cow or two from him, and so this herd bull spends a ton of time like running them off. And you know, when you run off the satellite bowl and now there's you know, there's sometimes multiple satellite bowls. They're they're coming to pestor from the opposite direction, almost like they're working against him. The you know, pick cows out of his herd. So you got these satellite bowls, and it becomes very very fun el cunning when that happens, because that herd bowl becomes very very active, very very talkative. The satellite bowls get very very talkative and active, and it kind of creates that that frenzy that that just you know, I've heard about. I haven't seen his personally, but I've heard guys talk about like a herd bowl being so fixated on chasing and harassing other bowls that they're watching as all these other bulls are slipping in and breathing a cow, and instead of just like breeding the cow, he just can't help himself but just chase everyone all over the place and just open himself up to having like the very thing he's trying to prevent from happening, he's basically allowing it to happen by running other bulls a hundred yards in some direction all the time. Yeah, and we've watched him from across the canyon. It's almost like they pay they've got that herd bull will pick out one or two. He really doesn't like, you know, like us, you got his worst enemy and he'll spend more time to let those other bulls get so much closer to his herd and spend more time on that one bulle. It seems like, man, you're just you're letting these other ones slip in. It's just I don't know what goes through their head. But some are yeah, some are like they're like fighters and that lovers. What So, what do you think about this? Like, if you're out locating, can you i, you know, presume you'd like to be up high where you can broadcast down as much ground as you can when you see a bull trying to think of how to ask this. A bull doesn't go up high. A real bull doesn't go up high and rip out vehicles just to see who's out on the landscape. Right, he's doing something different. He's not like, hey, where are you because I'm gonna come four yards over that direction to beat your ass? You know, Like what is he communicating when he's bugling? So well, we're trying to mimic, in my opinion, with that ridge running you know or fire road running whatever that that get high so you can really use you know, the terraindeer advantage. Satellite bowls will do that especially those somewhat mature satellite bowls or the they will run ridges looking for those cows. And so when we have the chance to hunt, what are they doing? What are they bugling for? They're just trying to locate cows in the real world, US removed that satellite bowls running looking for like, hey, I'm here and and and and you know, without us being involved, that cow would come to him. Also, you think they really are up there cruising, bugling and bugling trying to find elk, not just bugling as a way of being I have them, Yeah, I mean we've long. I'm gonna hang onto him. We were in the Blues and four two thou fourteen down there in southeast Washington, where it's a little bit different of a special draw um, the elk are a lot more active, there's a lot more of them. We multiple on multiple occasions we would be in the timber and heard that happen where you could hear a bull run a finger ridge up, run the main ridge out, run a finger ridge down. And he was just biggling as fast as he could run by himself. And we ended up calling him in um and calling that bulling, and the shooter missed it a couple of times. Um, we watched it across stalking the Blues in Washington. We watched the same thing across the way. You would watch a herd bull just and you could hear him. You would watch him just run a ridgeline and big ol every couple hundred yards. I think he was just flat out looking for cows. He had none, Um, just just running ridges, looking for looking for So he's like a like a boss gobbler out. I was just gonna say, it's amazing this similarity. Yanni doesn't like it when people say he doesn't like when people say that el Khuntin's like turkey hunt. No, no, no, no, no, doesn't like it because admittedly there are some enormous differences. Yeah right, just the gut pile, right, just the gun alone. Yeah, a little different. Yeah, some of these Western hunters, some of us Western hunters, not us me included, but some people have some issues with that, that comparison the whole elk versus turkey. But but as far as the but there's more dude, more dudes on turkeys than hunt elk. And when you're hunting turkeys, you're out being like there's a vocal male. Okay, there's a vocal male who's territorial, who doesn't like other males, who wants hends to come to him. You're making the noise of females. It's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but there's like some similarities more than in duck hunting. No one says el cons like duck hunting. No as far. I think you're you're exactly on point as far as the calling aspects and kind of what's going through your head, what's going through their head. They're pretty dang close, you know. I think the the similarities are you know, the train you're in, maybe how difficult the hunt is. But there's there's some tough turkey hunting right because all these things and and it's funny because I wouldn't like, let's say I hung out with some dude who uh had always hunted elk okay, and he thought for his first turkey hunt, I wouldn't be like, bro, it's just like hunt right, It only goes to the other direction because it's you're trying to invite people who have a familiarity. You know, the millions of individuals who have a familiarity with turkey hunting. You're kind of just trying to invite them to start thinking about the whole thing. So it's not meant to be an insult. Like I said, you know you can throw the turkey's gut pile in your pocket. In your back pocket, yeah, ok, you have a wheelbarrel for that. A lot of the lot of the tactics, I feel like if you're strictly talking the hunting, the calling, it's pretty similar. But back to the cow. So responding to I twice had it running ridges bug went away and a bugle and like the last thing you think you're gonna hear is yeah, and sure enough, like you know, less than a hundred yards away, I have a cow answer me her coming into the bugle. But what's interesting both times that happened, I mean it was right on the back end of that cow call is then the bull that was with her went. I was like yeah, yeah, And both times I heard crashing away that that bull took that cow, was like, we're going that direction, came up, poked her and took her the other way. So let me ask you this, then, both of you guys, have you seen many instances when you're out ridge running what do you call it you just out locating on the ridges ridge running? Have you called in many bullss cows doing that? Not? I mean, we have not a lot. Um I say, you're just looking for that location, because typically we get that location beagle, we bail off towards him. But no, I would say what I'm after? Yeah, yeah, if that's the way that real life works. No, And I think I think even the satellite bowl, and it's just my own thoughts on it, there's not a lot of loose cows running, you know, or unhearded up cows runner out, I think. But for that satellite bulls, it's worth that last ditch effort to run those ridges and just see what's out there. Um. Another thing the reason that and they could be very similar to us, that that somewhat mature stellite bowl could be looking for a different herd. Like, hey, I can't take that guy down there's cows because he's a big you know, he's the toughest guy on the mountain. But maybe there's a herd bull on the either side or down here in a different pocket that's maybe not as tough, and I have a chance at him, you know. So there's there may be a couple of different reasons. He may be he's searching for you know, loose cows or or a different herd bull to go try to fight. Yeah, that's easy for me to picture, is that he's just out ripping bugles and when he hears something, he's like, what That'll gonna go there and have a look, see what's going on. Maybe some dinky little ship and I'm gonna yep, claub room and then he'll be up running ridges and I'll be down here, yeah, playing grabbit. Yeah. Yeah, he already did the hard work for me. He's got these things all rounded up. I just gotta scoop in. And that's my friend. Brandt would talk about open anchored Alaska. He would talk about these these uh big mallards that would hang around on campus where they had some open ponds and stuff, and they'd be out there and need to get fat, you know, these huge, big mallards, and then the migratory ducks would come up and they just be emaciated, you know from that long migration. You said, they'd land that big, that big local duck be like, I'll take them here, boys, just take over all the hands, you know, he's just totally fat and half. What are the um, what are the parts of a bugle? So there? Do you think about it that way? I do? And there's there's different ways to mix and match kind of that, there's your opening. You can um, you know a lot of the people start off with a growl or you know, a real but I say we should talk about real bulls. A real bowl will start off, you know, raspy or growley, which, um we can we can mimic with adding some voice in with our throat. Do the do the whole thing, and then we'll have you break out some parts. Let's just do because we haven't. We haven't had you ripped one since we start talking, So just kind of a hero we'll do a kind of a standard challenge. We all try to think about the different parts that are in there, at least what I do, and then we'll come back and try to explain them. I'm gonna try to count how many parts I think are in there. I like that and man, because when you're watch someone do it and you see his belly just drop kissing all over themselves and yeah, like when they get like that, man, they looked like they'd be eating meat pictures like killing a rabbit meat when their belly just going, and it's like you're like, yeah, at some point you'd switch diet. It's almost man. So you got like the yeah, there's not opening, which I typically don't do the grally. I usually just start clean clean into the escalation. Yeah, and then you kind of you kind of transition really quick into your high note, so you can kind of there's a intro the transition into the high note. I hold. I try to hold the high note for you know, one or two seconds, and it depends on what people maybe we should should Just there's that location biogle, which is just a two or three note high note, and then quitch. There's only maybe two or three parts of the location the challenge Biegle I just did. And then halfway through that high no, I try to drop my voice back into the call, so he and then you try to like get growlly there towards the end. And that's just kind of my idea of adding some aggression back in. And then I finished with the grint, so intro, get to the high note, add some voice back in, either finished with some chuckles, grunts, or you can just kind of pop the bagle off and end it there. And you found, like on the locations, like when you're doing locators, you found that that that like extending prolonging that highness, the high note, can fire them up more than when you don't I would say extending it, I would say, it's it's that tony reach. Get making sure you get that tone that hits your ears, because it gets to somehow gets their attention. I don't like to be in the length of it. I actually don't like to be that long. I want to be like two or three seconds, because there's a chance of that bull may do a weird grunt or do like a weird little answer, or a cow may answer somewhere in there, and if I'm ripping a bagle, I can't necessarily hear that, you know. Like some of those those ones in the Bob Marshall, for instance, they were very quick because I don't know if they've ever heard a bugle in their life or you know, or there's not a lot and they were answering like literally I would barely catch a tail end of their responses and what the heck was that again? You know? So you want to keep that bagle in my opinion two to three seconds and then listen. But but talk about what you were telling me with you and a buddy watch and elk and trying to get them to respond, which which story was that you were talking about. You guys were doing different types of bugles, and there's a certain sitch and there were certain types of bugles that would make them fire up and something he would ignore. Yeah, So we running areas. It's obvious is we're running these ridgelines, Like there's elk here. You can see fresh tracks, you could smell, and they smell like a one of those big black markers. You know that you could they just have a unique smell. You're like, man, there are elk here. They can hear us from right here. They were here this morning. It's like a barnyard with like kind of sweet nice Yeah. And then the big bulls, I think when they're flat out going, there's those big like super forty four black markers that have that just pungent smell. That's what I always imagine, like there's a there's a big bowl here somewhere. That's when you said it, man, because I always say that analo like prong horn animal, they smell like freed dole a corn chips man. When you put your nose up to their for you know, black mark or for Elk, Yeah, black big, that big Magnum forty four mark or whatever the heck it is. It's like that anyways, that's just what I think. Um. But yeah, and that hunt. We knew they were Elk, and so I, me and my buddy were just experimenting, like, hey, you bigle. He's not quite as loud as me, but bagle and then but don't get the high note, like just stay somewhere in the middle. And he would do that and nothing. We he'd maybe let him do it twice, and then I would come in with the high note that just kind of rattles your ears, rattles your buddies ears, makes you kind of want to plug your ears during that bighgle because it's just that resonance, is that one that drones in your ears? And we get an instant response like all right, let's let's do this scientifically. We need to switch up. So next time I'm gonna go just hit a mundane mid note, just boring, and then you'll hit the high note just to make sure it's not volume or something else that would one and sure enough, uh, I wouldn't get a response on a mid note vehicle. He hit the high note and bam, just the instant response. And and it's I think there's very very good data just from our own selves. And when you hear a lot of hunters like yeah, until I can get that high note, we just don't get responses. It's just something about it that makes them pay attention to you. Maybe it it penetrates better, you know, through the through the thick brush, it it travels better. Something is better about it that that gets him. Maybe it's just internally, like they hear that note and like I am gonna answer that one. Yeah, because that that's the funny thing about Like you'll never know what kind of tripped around. You'll never know, like like when they hear it, what are they hearing? I've renched this for while. I saw a new friend of mine who's done a lot of research on turkeys. Right, he's talking about the iridescence of birds, you know, and he he believes that when a bird looks at a bird, it sees something very different then when you look at a bird, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's like you can't compare your impression of what a turkey looks like walking through the woods to what it might look like a turkey with his vision, what's in his mind, the iridescence of the feathers, the way he picks up that color, and it's like it's just two different worlds. You know. Little things can sort of give you a glimpse into it, but you just don't know what kind of trip the around, how they're you don't know how they're like analyzing or processing. Yeah, the information around, and there's a there's a I kind of cater more to the temperament of the elk in my calling style. I kind of let the I react to them. Um there there are quite a few guys out there that have, you know, kind of broken down elk language or maybe what some of this stuff means, and they're successful, so I'm not necessarily going to argue with them. But I was kind of a nerd at this stuff when I was growing up, you know, eighteen, I spent way more time than a single person should ever spend just watching elk. You know, from mid September to mid October, back when I was a rifle slash mostlotor henter, I just want to know everyth about him. Why are they doing this? And I would just watch bowls day in and day out, and you know, some of these sounds that they say mean this, I'm like, but I've seen them do complete opposites. You know, when when he chuckles, that means that he's trying to round the cows up to take him somewhere else, Like well, I've seen a satellite bull come down the ridge and he went and chuckled at him. Like so some of these things like it. Maybe it may be, but it could just be his temperament, It could be the way he communicates. It could be. Um, so why, Like I said, they these guys have been successful, But I don't know if I necessarily it's that this sound means this, or this sound means you should do this. Um It's tough and I don't know if we'll ever figure it out. Can you do? I want you to make a the bark a warning bark? But then I also want to ask you, like in terms of people are like, oh, so chuckling, is this chuckling means I'm sending my calls? But he's like, well, I saw a bowl chuckle at another bowl. So maybe that's not what chuckling means. So do a warning call. But also tell me, have you ever seen a warning bark used for some thing besides saying, hey there's a kyoh, hey there's a dude. Hey, I smelled something funny. Do you want me to bugle first? Whatever do you want? Man? I hate that noise. I hate that noise when you make it. That's why in the seminars, I'm like, besides the wolf hound, and that's about the second least favorite sound I'd like to hear in my own in the spot with what was being first. But so that that sound, I probably I'm more confident in what that means. Uh. They typically when they smell you, they're gone that you don't even get the warning. But but it's one of these they've seen something they don't like, or they've heard something they don't like. Um, you know, if we're tromping around through the woods and we're cracking sticks, all of a sudden you think you're an elkin, you know, you get hammered with an alarm bark. I think it's one of those sounds that and I'm fairly confident in this that they want you to show yourself at that point, like we've seen or heard something that doesn't make a lot of sense. We're a little bit worried about it. Come show yourself. And I think that's why in response to that alarm bark, I alarmed bark back, like why heard you? I heard you or I seen you. You Come show yourself. And a lot of times you can at least prolonged, prolong her running away or him running away, alarm bark in the rest of the canyon, letting everything know, hey, there's something weird going on over here. But sometimes we've been able to alarm bark and have like the cow come around the tree, you know, some stuff that could have potentially saved that if it was a bowler and elk I wanted to kill. Do you remember you think it can kind of almost confuse them because she is. I feel like most times it's cows. I've heard a couple most like they're they're saying one thing, and then when you bark back at them, they're kind of like, oh what, but I wasn't expecting that. Oh there's an elk bark and it kind of just like I've seen him not really relax but like you're saying instead of just like getting the hell out of dodge barking, they sort of just like end up just filtering slowly away and you maybe haven't blown your cover. Yeah, definitely confused white Tails and confused Antelope by doing their bark back at them, you know, and then they're kind of, yeah, they linger more. Yeah, they just kind of hang out. It's not necessarily you didn't save the whole situation, but it gives you a chance. But you know what, you remember those remember the bite and blow, like the premost biting and blow that everyone in the world had, like in the mid nineties. I think that that was like enough people had it and it made it just such a consistent sound every time I'm not joking when I say this, we would blow that and Coles would respond with an alarm bark. Yeah, they're like that means one thing. That means there's some dudes. There's some dudes in the woods Man And that was like that was having that experience a couple of times of like get all set up, everything's perfect, winds perfect called bulling, and hit that you know on that bit and blow then be answered by dude. It set us back, I say before you try men on this that Like I had that call, I might might even be in that tough where over there, and I could just never master it. I could never get it good. It was just like it was too finicky, you know. It was kind of like you never could like these external reason you make now, I mean you can, like you gotta be good to use them. I think people like that because you could be a shitty caller and kind of making noise, but every every shitty caller was making the same shitty noise and that same thing and necessarily wasn't making a good noise. Yeah, and that's that's like my dad he can't he still can't use my easy estress, you know, everybody else in the world can. But he could use the bite and blow. So, like Steve said, you throw him one of those. I gotta use bit and blow on it. You're you're good. Bit and blows are like crossbows. Right. It's like some dudes be like, man, I don't really have time to figure all this ship out, right, I'm just gonna get one of the holes and go hack it out. Yeah. I ran around with the I think it was the Loman version of the Little Green barreled one the bite and blow and that that's what I used growing up rifle hunting, just to stop one or but yeah, you could not change what you sounded like. You sounded like everybody else I had one, Yeah, and they just tune in, especially if you're not pressure area. But that's pretty interesting man, that you've I would never in a million years thought to hit him back with the warning bark. Yeah, do you guys call it a bark in your in your alarm bark? And we've we've had enough experiences where we tried, like, let's just mut at him, and that seems to never work as good as alarm bark. So we've we've experimented, like what if we call back to them, maybe they just want to hear that there's an elk. It was an elk that made the sound. So if I make a good enough elk sound, though, but it doesn't settle them down as much as the alarm bark. A pretty committed to the idea that something's amiss man. A funny thing about elk too, I'd be curious to get your perspective on this is it seems like like if you picture a group of white tails, I feel that the hierarchy in a group of white tails isn't as I'm talking to females, so does like white tailed, does I feel like the hierarchy isn't as rigid is it is with elk. There's more fluidity with the groups because the thing that I found with elk watch milk, is there some elk that you an alert. Like let's say you're putting a sneak in on a group and there's some elk that they pick up something's not right, but no one cares that they think something's not right. You're spot and they got their head up. They're like, bro, I saw something, man, I know, I saw something. And the other alsteral feeding there's some elk they lift their head up and everyone's head comes up exactly and they're like, something's amiss because old Bessie. Old Bessie ain't happy. When she ain't happy, nobody's happy. Right now, you're you're exactly spot on them. We've got hundreds, if not thousands, of you know, a caffre yearling can pick their head up, no, something's not right. She can run to the front of the herd and nothing cares. But if you get one of those more adult cows. She'll run up, bump that that lead cow and it's all over. Or if the lead cause easy, you know, you don't have a chop. But sometimes these younger cows may not have as much influence. I don't know what it is, but yeah, caple, pick you up. She'll run circles in the herd, try to get him all and nobody, you know, none of the other cows care. Nothing, nothing happens. I think, yeah, I've met this before on the show. But these researchers are doing a thing with monkeys. One time where they destroyed a monkey's credibility in his troop by recording his warning cry and playing it all the time, and after a while when he would do his legit mourning cry, no one would pay attention because they gave him the reputation of the boy who cries wolf. And these things had a pretty elaborate language where they would have a warning cry for something on the ground and a warning cry for something in the air because there was like some guy, can'member what it was, or some one of their primary predators. Their leopards were a primary predator, and there's some just big avian predator and they would have that noise, and they could make it that people lost their faith where his troop lost their faith in him. I don't think that probably happens without but they haven't earned it yet, or they're like jumpy. Maybe they have a reputation for being jumping. Yeah. That well, Bessie, she's always she's just a crazy one. She she didn't see anything again, because there's nothing that feels better when you're putting the move on something. Well, what feels better is not spooking one. But if you're putting the move on something and he pegs you and you freeze, and also it goes back to feeding and you're like, oh man, yeah, back in the game. But they're still in their head. They're still like acutely aware, right, there's still nervous. But you like bought a minute. You bought a kind of a second chance. You know. That lead cow, though there's there's no I wish there was a way that you could like tie a big pink ribbon around the lead cow and then she could never be killed because I around home, there's been some bad Like the whole herd just loses their sense of who they are, where they're safe and like you see like some of our cow seasons where that lead cow get shot, that entire herd is in trouble um from groups of hunters because they just they forget how to be safe whatever the second. And so that's like my conservation, Like I wish there was a way we could tie like a pink ribbon around all the herd cows or the you know, the lead cow's neck and she can't never be shot because she she controls so much of their safety. Um. That's there's cows out there that have eight twenty years worth of experience. They've been through the season that many times, have been through winter that many times. You wouldn't think though, because there's gotta be you know, if she's there, then with her offspring and the rest of her there's got to be the next class. Right that's sixteen years old. You would think, yeah, I mean in that age bracket. But it's it's funny. We've we've seen it enough around home. We I live in a very small community with a very you know, small tree farm in my backyard the warehouse or south there in p l And you know, like in those muzzle orders or some of the late archery seasons when that heard that lead cow gets shot, it's it's a mess, like and then you just hear like six or seven or eight cows that get taken out of that herd just because it's even though there maybe you know, maybe a cow or the same age, older, younger, you know, I don't know how they got pecking orders determined, but it's just like, dang, that new one wasn't very good, you know, the second or third one wasn't very good at keeping them safe. Yeah, or hadn't hadn't done it yet, and the other ones haven't paid attention. Do you when you're hunting, are you kind of watching? Do you find yourself watching to try to see who the lead cow is? When you're trying to work a group of elx? Got a bull in it? A little bit like more from Afar. When we're in the timber and stuff getting in close, we eat, and it's tough. It's tough to figure out which one is because they're kind of spread out mingling. Um yeah, you know, yeah, until they're in action or moving. But if we if we spot one across the canyon, we're definitely paying attention. Like how much control does she have is she just kinda is she's setting the pace? How long till they get into the patch of timber where they're gonna bed, so we'll pay attention to her? Or is she more just slowly grazing you know a little bit but not a lot to what that lead cow is doing. Once you're up, and let's let's just walk through and say, like, you're up, you're doing your locating and lo and behold not terribly far off, but still far off. You get a reply, what's the next piece of information? Aation you want to know? Or like what's the next thing you do? Um? You know, real quick, I'll look at maybe on X maps maybe if I can't see exactly where that came from, Like is there a bench down there? What's what's going on? Train wise? What time of day is it? It is my my thermal switched for good? And I if I if it takes me an hour to get down there, and that's when the sun is gonna hit the canyon? Am I gonna get caught in this wind? You know this wind swirl? And then where are they going? Is it? If it's right at daybreak, they're probably gonna feed, you know, typically for a little bit and then head to bed. So I'm trying to figure out, all, right, there there may be heading this direction. I've got this much time to get there. But first of all, I want to make sure I don't get the wind screwed up. Um? What am I gonna have to do to get the wind? Right? You have to scoop under them? Do I need to run down this ridge and the yards go down a finger and then get under them? Um? Should I just sit down and wait for an hour for the wind to fully switch and then go straight down on them? You know? It's some of this stuff all kind of time of day. Um, But typically I'm bailing off on every elk I hear. I don't say, Oh, that one sounds like it's not very big. I'm gonna just find a bigger one. I'm gonnat least go check with my eyes, um see what's down there. So we're pretty much diving after every bugle. Um. If that's all I can hear. If I can't see, let me give you. Let me give you a a couple of like competing scenarios. Let's do the first. The first scenario will be like the one that I like, the one that I would like least it's ten in the morning's hot. You rip a bugle and then from the nastiest patch of black match stick timber. Seems like it's right in the middle of the nastiest patch of black timber. Are you like, man, I'm just gonna wait or do you think I'm gonna go in there and try to work that bowl? How can I get close to the black timber without making a whole bunch of noise? All right, I'm gonna go down to the north. It's it's like a north face and slope and there's a patch of black timber and narratives I don't know, you know, hundreds of yards tall, hundreds of yards wide. I'm gonna go down and sit on the edge. I love killing elk between ten or two and that bowl bigles out of his bed somewhere around noon one or two. It's they're very Let me, let me preface us with if you're trying to kill that big herd bowl, so he's trying to kill you, don't give it this whole conversation. You don't really just just any bowl. I would still go down there and sit on the edge of that herd wait for him to get up. He will typically sometime in the middle of that betting session, get up and check on all of his cows. So if I can get up, you know, get as close as possible to them without spooking him. If it's a jack strawed blowdown mess, I might just say I need him to come back out of there. I'm not gonna make it in, but if I can get somewhat close I mean in the timber. Yeah, if I can get close to that edge or where it's, you know, without being a complete mess and making all kinds of noise and let him know him there, I'll go down there sneak in. If I can keep the wind rights, yeah, yeah, you know, ideally as close as possible. If I get the hundred yards, great, But if I can get two hundred fifty and be comfortable there, I'm just gonna go sit down and wait. So let's say, okay, so you creep down and you gotta uphill wind. There's nice elk trails cutting all through the timber. You start creeping down in there and precing you just smell him. And it's not the smell of yesterday's elk. It's not elk piss. It's you smell elk, like living breathing there now elk, And you're like, it's got to be that he's a hundred and fifty yards away. What are you thinking? Then? Can I Can I go any further? How much further? It just depends so well, there's a lot of times where we've spotted the cows before they spotted us. You're we used to live by an old saying, we have so much anymore. But if you're not bumping ilk, you're not honeyolk. But you don't necessarily want to bump every elk you're trying. So it's it's not a good saying by any means, but we want to ideally, I want to be within a hundred yards that way, as soon as he ripped a bugle out of his bed, I can I can walk on top of him. He haven't made any noise in a perfect world. You you ripped a bugle, he located, You're like, I got you pegged. I don't want to make it another sound. And while you're a hundred yards away from the first cow, he's in there somewhere. You don't know where he is. We can see a cow's ears sticking up. You still haven't made a noise. I in my opinion, if you try to make elk calls in between them, especially if you're bugling, you can maybe make a cow cal and get away with it. But if you're trying to bugle to him, your basicuit in now and saying, hey, I'm a big bull that's gonna come down. He'll round up his cows and it's that cat and mouse game from then on. And I've did it so many times where I don't think he wants the risk of a bull coming down in on him. So does he has what he wants? Yeah? Yeah, I mean he's trying to you know, procreate and live and that's his to uh, you know in September, that's all that bull wants to do. So I don't want to, you know, alert him of me coming down, he answered my my locator. I was far enough away it didn't mean anything to him. He doesn't know I'm coming in. Um. And then I'm just gonna sit and weight from the bugle out of his bed. He's gonna come check his cows. He does not like satellite bowls to bed anywhere close to him. So if I were you a bugle at that hundred or hundred and twenty five yard mark. Um, he's gonna come. He usually comes and checks you out. He does not want you that close to his bedded cows because he can't necessarily see them all at the same time. So he's kind of just trusting that there's you know, he's getting up checking them. Yeah, because they kind of filter into those bedding areas and everybody takes yeah, like you know, if they're in a line or in a little ball going into a bedding area, they don't like march and single file, then all line up in there, ye there, you know, Then they mingle around, and time goes by, and they lay down and get up and lay down and move around, and by you know, pretty soon they're just occupying a wide area. You can wind up down, you can sneak down and realize you want up in the center of them. Yeah, you can. They can bed eight d yard you know, in a eight hundred yards circle and just be scattered everywhere. And and you'll notice how when you're just walking through the timber and you're like, yeah, they betted here last night or two nights ago. And by time you're done walking up the hill, you're like they're still bedding. You know, this is that probably the same group. They just they were just spread all out because they were, you know, pissing the beds. Um like, yeah they were here last night, but yet they were from down there to up here there hundred fifty yards scattered up here. So you so you've gotten where you snuck down And like I was saying, like you can see some cow years or whatever your hundred yards away. I can't get me closer because if you getting closer, you're gonna you know, you're gonna bump one. You're then gonna say you're saying, then you're gonna do another bugle. Only after he does, I'm gonna let him him lead the game. If you gotta wait, Yeah, it's it's very tough. I'm not a very patient hunter, especially if I got to sit there for two or three hours and i'm you know, if I've seen the ears, I know I'm on the oak, which you could probably get away with the bagle at that point, just because he's gonna most likely want to come check you out. But in that scenario, I like to let him lead the game off and then I want to walk right on top of him. You know or bagle is close to right on top of his bigle is possible. I've only killed one bowl with the bow, and the one bowl I killed with the bow, I did just that. Found a bett at Kyle. She's forty yards away, and I sat there and waited, and eventually the bowl just doing his deal, came over and I shot him standing above that cow. Yeah, like basically came up to stand above her, just as he's doing his little thing, you know. Comes. I have a I have a video well at some screenshots off of you last year when we were in Montana on the on the Land of the Free series with Born and Rais and those guys, um I spotted it was a nasty day. We were walking through some black timber, just get to the edge of it and I'm like, there's a cow bedded. We sat there and frozen death for like fifteen minutes. But then sure enough, the middle of the day that bowl you start to see him working his way through, comes over to the closest cow, bumps her out of her bed, noses her out, and then checks on her. And then that's when I got my shot. Um. Yeah, but I think now I got lucky. I think at fifteen minutes. I could have been standing there for two hours. You know, I just happened to maybe get lucky. That was his time to make his rounds and bump her out and check on her. So let's say you do, how long would you sit in this scenario we're talking about the black timber bedded cow, right, how long did you sit before You're like, Okay, I'm gonna try something. I'm gonna try a cow call. I'm gonna try something. It depends I would like to say sitting here that I would I would be comfortable enough until the cows get up and started feeding about. So, you know, I just I can't believe that you, as a dude who like lives and breathe game calls, you're not just gonna run in there and start just at me. So I have even though I love game calls, I like killing Elk Moore, and so I kind of know, I kind of know like when to call it, you know, and just kind of let things play out. Um, that's the same thing. You know. One of my best tactics is instead of just calling them in, is more of the ambush and call him in a little bit, you know. So you can call it elkin from a mile or I can go get in front of the elk going across the mountain, wait for him, maybe call once or twice and kill him. I'll take the ambush and call all day long if that's what I need to do to be effective, instead of saying, oh, yeah, I called this bull from a mile away, like I'm not. I don't need any awards for I just want to kill that thing. Okay, so you're so. So you sit there and two hours goes by and eventually he bugles, Then what do you do. I'm gonna bugle right back out of yeah, And I'm trying to paint that picture that you know, I'm really close to your cows. You're over there somewhere I can't maybe see you. I'm closer to your cow maybe than you are. You better come and take care of me or try to run me off, like you know, we talked a little bit earlier about that satellite bowl and those bulls spending so much time running them off. At this point, he doesn't have the chance to round his cows up and run away from me. He's got to come try to run me off at this point, like it's you know it's came to head at that point, and so you're trying to paint that picture. I'm close to your cow, she's right here. I'm right here. Come running me off. Okay he bugles you bugle, he doesn't move. Maybe bugle again. This is where it gets tough. I mean, you know, sitting here doing a podcast like well or the cows making noise? Canna hear sticks breaking? What's Yeah, there's a there's a bunch of this other stuff that comes in, and you're like, all right, if i'd probably biggle again, maybe do some excited cow calling, just kind of see how he responds to that. Did that Perker's interest? Um? And and just kind of see see what you need? You need to factor in a ton of things that I can't provide. Yeah, that's that's where it gets tough. You're even doing these seminars and do and all this stuff, like there are so many there are so many things that come in. You know, you teach us prescriptive thing, but you know, if there was something that takes off up the hill after I be a gold, then I'm like, you know, but that cow doesn't what's going on here? Um? There's so many variables. But I think the thing to note here though, is that there's like the guys and I feel like it's kind of become this is this and go off on a kind of a tangent, but like you're the guy that like it's gonna bugle first almost every single time, right, But there's a lot of dudes, and I feel like that's kind of changed in the last ten years. So I feel like when I was guiding, like those guys that didn't even carry bugle tubes and there it was just kind of like, no, you have to call as quietly and as little as possible, don't even bring the bugle tube. And I almost had to like break out of like and just be like, you know what, I want to just try. I know you guys are saying this thing, but I just want to least go out there and try and like I got good results, right, but like speak to a little bit about like why start with you know, vehicle instead of why start with calcouling. So as far as like yeah or any let me let me hit him. Let's I want to bring it out of him through the scenario. Okay, so let me try one more scenari because I think that this is gonna be a scenario where he's gonna where he's gonna ca call. If not what us ask when do I calcohol? But let me just hit you. In the our scenario, it's pre morning darkness. You're on a ridge. You know below us there's like a nice lush meadow that they've been hitting, not even light out. You're like, you know, I'm gonna see what's going on down there. You rip a bugle and lo and behold. Sure enough you get a reply, and because of your familiarity with the area, you're like, they're down in that metal. I was watching him last night. Now what do you do? So? Are you a cow calling it all today? I don't know right now. The winds, the winds probably blowing down to him, so many of you try to get out of my spot or get down the creek on the ridge line. That's to be my first thing, all right. Make sure like you know, the winds washing washing down valley, Yeah, washing down valley, down slopes. I'm gonna try to get below him, and whether that means I gotta run down this ridge yards and then I'll be safe and angle down in the creek and then come up on him. Whatever I need to do. Um pre morning darkness, I you know, almost light out. Yeah, so you're getting close enough. I'm probably gonna try to get to the edge of that meadow, and I'm gonna be very careful. A lot of guys set up And I did this multiple times, and I kicked myself every time I do it, and I will still do it to this day. I will go set up on the tree that is on the edge of the daing meadow, you know, if if they're not in the meadow, and try to call him in there because I can, oh, I can see everything. Well, there's that elk will or that bowl. When I'm trying to call it in, We'll try to get to the edge and and we've talked about how nature works without us being involved. He'll expect that cow to run across the meadow because he should be able to see him, he should be able to see her. And you know, we're trying to trick this whole, you know, glitch the game a little bit. Uh. So I will get try to get wind right on that meadow, and then I will try to walk down the side of the meadow towards the direction he's at on that edge of the meadow and try to be in the timber a little bit and get off the edge of that meadow and try, you know, however these angles work out, try not to call him through that meadow, if that makes any sense, Like, I want to keep him out of open space, because that gives him a train break or a vegetation break where he thinks you should be able to see me. Um. On that scenario, I may go in and open up with a few cal calls and just see how he responds um versus blow him out. If I can get in there, I still want to be close. I'm gonna maybe open up with a you know, a needy, whiny cow call. Here. So, and this is one thing we talked about music and just yeah your normal mew. A lot of times when I cut and people can say whether there's a such thing as an estra's buzz, I use these real whiney, drawn out up and down caw calls versus, Yeah, your estras wine is what I call, you know, his names for everything, but it's more of an up and down wavy caw call. It's not your perfect cow call, but it's given us a good results. Oh, there's a little waiver in there, man. And so we've we've had seen cows do that um multiple times just watching him, and that bowl will typically always go check on her. It's just that whiny and we've called it here that little like yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of a flutter, and we've did that in burns. Were like, it's kind of cool calling in the burn because you can see that elk for so long coming in. But it was almost the more we did that, the faster he would run, the slower we would go, the more he would slow down. And we're like, all right, let's just stay on it again, and I'll do it on this is on the external. I I used this a lot for this specific call. It's just that whiny and then it really really over emphasized that nasally sound at the end, and that call might that could be so seductive, so titling that he would uh be like, man, I know, I got three four cows out here in my medal with me. If I'm gonna take a mozy over in the woods and see what exactly is up with this newcomer. Yeah, because he's got a pretty good idea where his cows are at in there. But look, in this scenario, do we know there's cows there? No? Right, I I always go into everyone assuming that there's chatting. I just assume um that there's cows. So, but let's say that bowl, he's checked on his cows all that morning, he's been with them all night. He knows about where they're at, whether they've already come into the first extracycle, whether they're close. He's checking on them all if that for sure thing, And she sounds needy and needs some attention, he's maybe willing to go grab her. And I think that's when people say the cow call bulls, And that's kind of what they're they're playing on, is that you sound needy enough or you're you know, maybe something he should come check out because he knows his other you know, six ladies aren't ready for any fund. So he's to come and grab grab her. And so that's kind of why we we play that direction. Let me hear. This is just something that came to my mind, but it's not really in order of what we're talking about. Have you found a good rule of thumb or anything helpful to explain to people how to tell how far away a bugle is. I remember we started hunting bugling out. We would oftentimes I think they were much farther away than they were, and in going even to get into the zone, wind up stumbling right through the elk thinking that they had to have been farther away. This is particularly down like big valley bottoms, you know, not where you're like on one slope looking at the other slope, but where there's an expanse of there's an expanse of like flat country, timbered flat country or whatever, and you hear a thing. Our early thing was that it's much farther away than it actually is. Is that something that is only learned through experience or do you have a way to explain to people how to tell where a bugle's coming from. I don't even know if experience helps yet. I I just until sixteen in New Mexico, so I'll kind of start. I grew up hunting coastal jungle of southwest Washing and that's all I knew. Coastal rainforest. Yeah, so you have you are choked full dents um and and and in that scenario, that's kind of where I learned how far elk were. Um. They were typically closer than than you thought in that scenario. Um, so we kind of got good at judging that until that elk turns one eighty. If he bagles at you, and if he turns degrees and beagles back in, his cows are up the hill the other way. I don't care how good you are. You you he sounds like he's double the distance or half the distance. Yeah, you think there's two bulls sometimes yeah, And I'm like, so that is always going after you and back to the turkey thing. A lot of elk bowls that we call in, especially when you're trying to pull them from their cows, they do that strut zone. They come towards you a hundred yard to the bugle and they will go back and then you may do may get him to pull back again, but they will never get past that point. And so you've got this basically elk on a track that's running a hundred yards, and so you're trying to judge, you know, whether he's facing you, whether there's a hundred yards away. And then in two thousand and sixteen, my eyes really got opened up. I went down to New Mexico and uh Roali juniper country and being a seasoned elk hunter. I thought, oh yeah, this elks right around the corner. And we chased bugles for miles. You could hear a bugle for two miles away playing is day and I got we got our butts kicked. I mean I would say butts kicked from a standpoint that we went a lot further on every bugle we heard versus like dang, this thing should be a half mile away. Noticed things two miles away. Just the vegetation, yeah, just the vegetation quality the air, to the moisture in the air, yeah, if you know. Of course, elevation always helps with that. Things just sitting up on a point high enough where he can project down that valley. Um. We there were a couple of times and we looked at on GPS like we could be at this water tank and we got we we heard this a bigle went up there, called him in and he was a mile and a half away on the GPS. You know, it's just crazy. Janice is much better than me at telling where a gobble or a bugle's coming from. I don't know if it's like a quality of ear thing right, Like I've been exposed a lot of like the noise, but he just is more like I would trust his opinion about was where it was better than my opinion about where it was. We we've been walking down a trail and get a bagle, you know, with maybe two or three guys and all three of us point and twenty degrees in different directions, like, oh boy, we're gonna need another one. At least we need at least two people, you know, convinced that it's a certain direction. They're just it's crazy sometimes depending on what you were looking at where your head was when the big golden we're all like that way and just slight a slight roll if that elk is just over that role, you know, like even like here we're sitting next to this gully, that bow will probably sound louder if he's across the gully on the other side than if he's down the bottom just fifty yards below us. Because of that how that sounds going to travel to your ears. You know, here's another scenario for you. What's different. You give me your best scenario. Give me this scenario where you're like, I'm gonna kill this bull, just a satellite bull feeding on an open hillside. First thing in the morning, like I have a loan bowl feeding by himself. First, Well you you said we weren't just killing herd bulls anymore so because we only have so much time, right, so I just want to focus it on. Yeah, it's just elk if I if I've got a semi mature maybe three and a half to six and a half year old May three and a half to five and a half year old bull just feeding first thing in the morning by himself when coming downhill and I'm below him, I'll take I'll take that, Okay, tell me how you're gonna work that Bull'm just literally paint the picture for him as long as his eyes can't pick me out if I can move using you know, train or vegetation to get within even him. I don't even get that close now because you're down winds coming down because the day has and heat it up herest thing in the morning. I know from maybe hunting the area a day or two before, the sun's not gonna hit this drainage until you know, the two hours, I've got plenty of time. Um, I just want to get to three even maybe four yards away from this bowl and just calcolum and I won't even touch my bugles. So then you're not worried about getting hundred yards away. No I I can. I know from past experience that we can pull that thing with a lot of heavy, sexy cal calls from a lot further away. Okay, so give me the So there you are, you're down in the creek bed, but it's an open slope and you're looking up and you can just see him working around feeding and I three yards up the hill, and I want to be able to see him. If I can see him and see how he reacts to the calls, the better. How did happen with First, you start heavy duty, or you just take his temperature first. I'll probably just some white calcols. Just see how he responds here once he uh, once he gets going, then I'll probably pick it up. So this is the first noise out of your mouth, and just maybe those two and then you watch him. Just watch him. He's mostly gonna pick his head up, and then his next steps either gonna be go back to feeding or he's gonna turn and come down towards me. Once he turns, it comes down to me. And I don't want to be cocky, but at that point, I would say we have a nine percent chance he's kind he's gonna come. Okay, when do you feel that it's once he takes that first step in your direction. So if he was feeding left or right and he goes from straight down the hill, um, I would be pretty confident that at least we're gonna get a shot at him. What's your cockiness level? Just seeing him? I'm pretty confidence. So confidence level, yeah, you just okay, it's just the fifty yards. Um, I'll just set that in fifty yards. I'm gonna say we've got a chance that he no, no no, no, no, what I'm saying, like when he's still three yards up the hill. But you know, like like you know for absolute you know it might it might not be possible in real life. Let's just say you knew for absolute certain that that is a lone bowl by himself and the winds right and your three yards blow it and it's when we and we know that it's the rut. Are you thinking, man, there's a you know, before I even touch this call, I'm saying, there's a blank percent chance that that bull is gonna step in my direction if I can see him from across the canyon. No, he's all by himself, um feeding. And I would say that number is pretty similar, even because a lot of times the satellite bowls will kind of heard up together and hang out. I would say, even if you have a group, it's still probably one of them or two of them are gonna break off. Really yeah, maybe the more mature out of those two, or if there's a couple that or maybe a little bit better than the spikes or the the you know, the two and a half year olds that typically those bigger ones in the group will break off and come towards you, sometimes together. So let's say you're on a glass and knob. They're just a ridge and on one side, down one side of the ridge, you've got and all these bulls are exact same size, and this scenarrow they're all exact same size. But one side of the ridge you've got twenty cows. There's seven bowls. Everybody's going bananas. Okay. On the other side of bridge is just the same bowl. But he's just hanging out feeding. You're like, I'm gonna go work that bowl. Now you're really playing with the reason I cunt. So you've got all that action on the one side, and that's what I'm here for. So now I need to weigh it is killing the ball more important or am I here for that? So that's that's where it gets really tough. Now you've kind of split me down the middle. Because even though I love I love filling the freezer full, help me, it's, you know, that's what I came out here for. I also come out here for something a little different, like that action. Like you're like, I want to go in and throw in with that group. So even though I know there's probably better well that many balls running around with twenty cows, there's still gonna be a lot of action. You're probably gonna have a chance, but that that satellite bowl is gonna be pretty well pretty good odds, right, And then you have the fifty sets of eyes versus the one set of eyes. You know that always helps, but you're seduced by the action. It is. It's it's uh in the learning experience and everything. Yeah, so I'm probably bowing towards the bugles because it's gonna be funnyer I go down there and bugle a little bit more. And and then I'm also thinking the back of my head, like I screwed this up. I can go after that one later or eventually he's probably gonna come on over to the join the party. Anyway. Give me another. Okay, now hit me with this is make your own scenario. Um, hit me with a great scenario that involves cows. This involves because you're saying like, okay, it's a bowl to three bowls whatever. No cows around out feeding, So let's say it is that it's it's a big herd bowl. He's got five cows, seems to have some like spike in the mix, seems to have some raghorn bowl in the mix. We're kind of pastoring him. What what is the moment throughout the day or the moment when you're like, now is my like, if I'm gonna make this work, I'm gonna make it work when X happens. I want to catch them if I can the most optimum time, if I can catch them when they're going through from feed back into their bedding cover. I want to be somewhere in that hundred yard range of the cover, so you just come out and maybe feeding in an open meadow and an old burn and an avalanche shoot whatever that area is their feed and they're going back to bed. I would love to catch them in that one hundred yards inside you're waiting in there. That's where that ambush slash. Uh. You know a little bit of calling comes in. Like all right, I've watched them this morning. It was right at daybreak. I had an hour and a half to get up. I know they're gonna feed in about on contour. They're gonna go to that bench. You know, I'm I'm drawing all this up in my mind where I think they're gonna go. If I don't have any past experience, I'm gonna go sit right there, hundred yards inside that timber and wait for him. Man, just do some real minor calling when you hear him, see them, see them, hear them. You know, I'm pretty impatient. So I might start to move around a little bit, you know, trying to figure hopefully ideally that bowls maybe making some sound on his own the more and on the morning. If not, you know, I might let a calcol here there if I kind of think I lost them or they should be here by now. I got you. I feel like the cows. A lot of times you get that sort of like tea party almost we used to always call it when they're leaving that big meadow, not like the not like the tea party, you know, like a bunch of like uh gals and a tea party just yeah, throwing tea into Boston Harbor or electing right of center anti establishment politicians or neither of those people drinking tea at a party. Then more clear, but almost like a cacophony, and really a lot of timetimes. It's not even that much beautling. But those cows they are just as they're moving up towards bed, you know, they're just you know, going off. And I love to have calves in the herd, Like if I can look across three calves, like then a little noisy sectors are gonna let me know they're coming. They're they're pretty vocal, especially the moms. Once they start moving like that, that the moms will talk to him because they're not always right next to each other, and so there's a lot of you know, cow to calf communication. Just as they move they start their journey back to bed, and no, they'll be pretty vocal. Let me hear another scenario. This isn'tna make your own. I'm giving you this one, all right, Okay, whatever the hell happened? You have your morning hunt, gets all hot. He's know, nothing's gonna happen. You're headed back toward camp. You're passing through a timber patch. Okay, unfamiliar terrain and all of a sudden surprises you. But all of a sudden, a hundred yards off down below you in the timber a bugle. So you have no context, you have no idea, you don't know anything. I'm gonna start that one with cal calls right where you stand. Yeah, see if he answers back to that, he might ignore me, or at least where's the all in cal calls? Is that gonna? Is that gonna work? Um? You know, a hundred yards away, I should be able to hear some sticks breaking if I can't see him, Um, if he's coming towards me. Um, if he doesn't respond, a lot of times they will come in silent too. So you gotta yeah, like, I can I hear sticks. But I'm gonna start that one with a cal call. Um I figured on those. I don't have a whole lot to you lose if he doesn't answer, So maybe five ten minutes if nothing developed, or I can't hear anything moving. I might just do a little weak, little bugle, just something knowing he can hear it because he's close. Um, just trying to get a response, so I can kind of engage whether he went the other way, whether he was in his bed, if he's still in his bed, did he move towards me. Let me hear the cow calls and let me hear the light bugle. Oh that's a real nice little light little ill no one that he can hear it. You know, when you're trying to locate, I'm trying to be you know, as loud as possible to kind of hit as many ears. But it's just just something really kind of in the middle, not getting really high. Just how's he gonna respond to that? But that's your softest caw call. Oh that's a that's a fairly heavy baggling read. We've got some really light so I'm really light. Make sure I get So that's the other thing I hunt with one call. So the really my I this is my personal call and I use it for almost everything I got called. This is the felt signature. So it's just and that's what you've been ripping the bugles on. Well, I've been using the maverick as well too, So those are the two that I I typically use. But mine's a little bit softer on the cow call. See, I don't think of that as a soft cow call man, So I guess who am I to say? But that strikes me as like a that's a cow call it. I mean, we can go really soft, but by time you're trying to call through the trees and the vegetation. If you've got somebody like you know, we've called a lot for our buddies and like dang them, things get drowned out pretty quick, right, cow is just making like you hear coles, just making the slightest little sounds. Yeah, it depends. That's not really in your hunting repertoire though, not the that I make. I will. I'll never argue they don't make them. Um, you know you don't need that. Yeah, I don't. I don't use it. Um, I will calf call, which is more of that high pitched chirp. If I'm trying to communicate with them, let me hear your what a calf? Okay, So they don't really have they don't really have the deep part to their called, just more of that high pitch shut off. Um, well, well I'll calf call a little bit, but yeah, most of my calcolling is loud um. And during September it seems they will communicate softly, but a lot of times, you know that the whole tea party or when they get going, they're fairly loud and knocks like yeah, and they got those loud, drawn out cal calls and they get going, and it's like, well, that's why I want to I want to be one of them, um. And so we try to. Like last year, the bowl that my wife called in uh my, there were probably forty cows and that heard with a couple of different bowls and then the one larger bowl and when they got up to feed, we kind of shodowed him the whole morning or the evening, excuse me, and they started to come up. They just started going and it sounded like a thousand you know, different elk going off because it's bouncing off the walls and they were all doing loud and it was it was pretty impressive just the amount of sound and noise and volume that group of forty cows could make. It It's like as many cal calls and as fast as they could go they were, they're letting them fly. That makes me want to hit you with another scenario. Okay, you're on all morning, right, you're all dejected, nothing happened. You get into a shady spot, you decided to have a it's eleven am. You decided to have a sandwich. Okay, you start to take a little nap. You're fighting the urge to go home. Everything sucks. And also here a bunch of sticks snapping, rocks rolling and for whatever the hell reason, off to your side aways here comes as a herd of elk. You can't tell are they spooked? Are they what? What's going on? But they're just kind brom rumbling down the hillside. Maybe they got bumped, maybe whatever. I don't know, maybe the bulls harassing them. They're gonna pass out of range. Did you just watch them go and be like hollows interesting? Or do you be like I'm gonna make some kind of crazy play. I m might heard a calcoll flow them down, but I'm not gonna necessarily chase that heard as they run away. You know, if they if they were just passing through fairly quickly, Um, we'll just kind of let them go, but just log log in your head where they went. Yeah, yeah, you know I was I able to see what was there. Could you know? I might try to get up, grab my bow and release and and cut them off, maybe to have a shot. If there is a bull there I want to kill. But you know, if they're moving like that, it's gonna be tough, you know, tough to call them in because they're they're going somewhere, they've they've been scared by something or you know, there was a predator or a human or it's gonna be tough to call them in. Okay, let me hit you with one more then you can hit you the snare if you want. It's evening time. It's your last day of the hunt, okay, And there's just a gigantic open sage flat, very open and just out in the middle of this thousand yards to cross and out in the middle of this thing is a couple of bulls, a bunch of cows, and they're just happily feeding away with a rifle. You'd be loving, but they're not going anywhere. They're gonna be out there until morning. It's your last night. You can't it's not really plausible to do a good sneak on them and you got You're like, I don't know, I gotta try. I gotta try something. I can't just let this right. I can't just let this one pass. And that's all you got last night. And you can't get three yards away without you can't get three yards away without spooking them. You're gonna have to just I mean, you're gonna have to try to call him in. See. It's just that you take their temperature as soon as you let that first. Probably caw call really loudly. Cow calls if they're three yards away. Chance not good? Ten under ten? Ser'ous? Like, I don't know, Uh, I'm pretty under ten. Yeah, I'm not liking my odds on this one. But you gotta try something unless you have enough time left in the night to go find something else. So if you had enough time to go find something else, you might be like, well, I'm probably gonna try to screw this up as fast as possible and then and then go find something else. That way to say, at least I gave it a shot. Um, that's tough. I usually like to to put and maybe I shouldn't put a number on it, but I'm pretty confident that in the mountains and normal hunting, I'm gonna get it to at least see the bulls I hear, you know, at a fairly close range, maybe not all with an archy range, but I'm gonna see him in the timber, like at a point where I've called him into a spot, where I've snuck into a point something like that, Like I'm gonna be I'm probably gonna see him at the closest point. I'm gonna see him as they're walking away, like I'm not gonna probably turn that ball. I'm not gonna get him to turn what you probably just see what you see if something crazy? Do you always with every group you work with, every group elk you work, are you like I'm either gonna call it or spook it, or do you sometimes just say like I'll find you tomorrow. So I'm not a I'm a how what's the quote, I'm a I have a trophy hunters mentality with a meat hunter's trigger finger, and so I just want to kill elk. But there have been a couple of occasions when the headgear has gotten me to a point like I'm not gonna screw this one up yet. I've got ten days left in season his bowl as a giant. I'm gonna give him one more you know, or a couple more chances before I blow him out of the country into a different drainage and the spot he is not familiar with. Um. Now, that's always bad. Sometimes I would rather hunt a bowl after I spook it so he's not as comfortable and its surroundings. But most of the time, I'm gonna bump him um. And a lot of times when we bump them, they haven't they haven't necessarily smelled us. In my opinion, them smelling us is are We've kind of screwed that up for a while. But if they just see us or hear us, um, I'd rather than see me personally walking towards them than to smell me. That's what That's the thing I've said to people is like I feel that they they don't always trust their eyes, and they don't always trust their ears, but they always trust their notes and and even their ears. So like, well, you call to them a specific way, like my buddies, they can all tell if it's me calling, I can tell which one of my buddies is calling. We'll have our own little unique style, and always like they can they tell like, do I need to switch calls? Do I need to switch my style? Because I was calling to them that way last night and then they seen, you know, me walking through the woods with my bow and my pack towards them, Like did they associate my calling with that? So if we go get on them again, do we need to switch? I don't know if I'm smart enough or like I we will just because we have a different call, or like say, hey, I was shoot last time, but we're going off to the same group, I'll call you shoot this time, just to give them a little bit different of a style. But I also believe if you sound enough like an ELK and a quality enough sounds, then doesn't really matter because always are gonna sound like OLK. So can you Can you fool him again the next day? And we have um, but I would assume him going with a little bit different sound. Do you guys ever, you and your bodies? Do you guys ever tag team on calling? We do? Is that advantageous? Especially when the whole the multiple cows get going and they're creating some excitement and we feel like we're losing some excitement to what the bull already has. We'll we'll get going back and forth um to pick it up. We don't do the primo style like guy drops the hundred yards back calling style though, because the way we hunt that color, which is now the the elk so to speak, is now two hundred yards away from this bull, and that might give him the chance to leave, dodge because the elkie thinks there isn't a threat that bowl or maybe around his cows up and leave. So a lot of times that color is right on my hip and it gives us a chance to communicate, like, hey, I can see something he can't like, stop biggling, stop cow calming off, he's hundre yards at um. You know, I love all the truth videos. I watched them all a hundred times. But the way that we have to hunt on public lands isn't the same as they got to hunt on the hill ranch. Yeah, you know that's a funny thing makes I was talking a new guy last night, a buddy mine. He's talking about this world record elk, and it was like everybody knew it was there, and it filmed it. Eventually a guide finds it. It's hiding out in some private land. Heidi hole they call a client on the phone, he books a trip to come out. It's like, that's all great and good, but that's not reality, man, you know what I mean. It's just not reality. Yeah, that's that's called cash. Yeah and yes, so we as much as I love those, it's just sending the sending the color way back has just never worked well for us a lot of times. And to this day, my buddy Charlie did call me in a bowl, but to this day I still called in every bowl life shot like I've never and when we do call for each other, we're usually writing each other's hip pockets, um. And it's it's really to create that that uh, that threat to that bowl, like I'm here, I'm on top of you, I'm on your cows. You have to come guys? Are you guys? Are You're like so much more, which is why you probably have to maintain that pressure distance. If we had to put a number, I know Steve loves numbers, Like if I had to put like a no, no, no, man, I don't know. If I had to put a I'm like nine beagles ten percent cowcus kinds of people. Nine beagles From the day, I'll leave the truck for the time I get back in September. To ten percent calcols, I would say probably represents nine bugles for every calcol for every ten calcols, ye, nine bagles for everyone, especially when we're locating. Really, I mean, we may let it. Maybe I'm a little off on my numbers. I might calcol just to say I did before I rip a bugle. But usually I'm gonna maybe calcol twice from a spot and then I'll rip. I really want to locate from this, And now you do. You mostly hunt in the high pressure areas, high pressure units. I try to get into some areas within those high pressure units maybe that don't have as many people. Um the spot we you know, we we Idaho we hunt. I don't have on Washington for a while. Now, uh, Montana we hunt a lot. We're in units where there's lots of people down by the road. But if we get two or three miles in, we're typically fairly alone. But you might run into a hunter or two or a set of boot tracks here there. But um, there's a lot of hunters around, and these elk may have been called to but it's yeah, if there are a lot of hunters I might not locate bogle as much. Uh, And that's one of those other things like yeah, you can't even factor in, like if you're in a high pressure area, like I tone my location bugle back because you know, some everybody's in two miles can hear me up on this ridge line, and I don't necessarily want everybody on my ridge line, you know, or I say mine or on the ridge line at the same time I am. So you're like, well, maybe I just cal called the locat or maybe I taylor back or or cut back my location beagle, so not everybody knows I'm here, or do you get into a pass on a ridge line there's been elk here, Like I'll start to pick my point a little bit more wisely, like all right, I can smell him, I can see their tracks will be gole from here. But then I might not be agle and tell him out at the end of the ridge. Next. We had a time hunting me my brother where we're hearing as bold as going nuts. But it was like the one road in the area, and it was like calling from the road the ridge that the road is on, and I'm like, dude, that's a guy, you know, And we argued about and argued about it, and he said that's I'm like, that's a guy, and then let's just go. So we start walking on the role and pre soon walked into a group out. Yea, it can be hard to tell. Man. I take a lot of pride just because of Hi you on the call company. I don't ever want to get called in by somebody. And there's been there's been multiple times where I was about ready to bail, and my buddies like, let's just hang it out a little bit. We could, they won't know who we are. We can sneak out of here. And sure enough we call a bowler a whole herd in multiple times. And so now I'm a little more likely to hang it out. Like even you could be fooled. Yeah, your pride might be heard a little bit, but is it really worth you know, risk and not getting a chance into this bowl because you think it's a person. So I'd rather I'd rather hurt my pride a little bit then, But you you generally know, yeah you do. And and uh, I've called a ton of bulls in with my Premos terminator too. But like, now if I hear that thing, you know, flute across the canyon, Like I know exactly what that is. Yeah, it may still it may still fool a bull, but I I can. I can pick a Premos terminator out, you know, almost anywhere at any time. Um, even most people call her. That are even some that are good on dire frams, Like, there's just some things they can't mimic. Even I can't mimic from a real bull, like the depth to get the guttural sound if you listen closely enough, sometimes you're like, yeah, that's a person. But then there's some really bad, honey elk that sound bad and they're they're real, So it's just tough. It's tough to pick out. We try to spend all this time sounding as good as we can, but in reality, the elk or a lot of times worse than worse than what we think you're supposed to. Yeah, what what's your I don't know if you get one or two or three or whatever, But like your death bed elk tips, like your elk tips that sum it all up. Where you're saying, like, man, if I could tell you one thing or two things, they're just generally applicable around elk calling. What would it be okay, I'll give you three um. First is set up. I get the chance, and I call it the fortune of listening to a lot of bad elk hunters, you know, in the position I'm in, Like, hey, your calls were awesome. I called these bulls into this and then I didn't get a shot. Its number one, when you set up whatever direction that bull is going to come from, make sure when he shows himself, either through vegetation or if it's on a train break coming up the hill to a plateau, make sure you're within bow range of where that break train or vegetations at to make sure that you get a shot. That's your setup that you need. So many people can do everything else right, but so many, I think, fail on this set up. They want to set up in a pile of brush, or they want to set up a hundred yards away from this spot. And as we talked in reality, that bulls gonna get to that spot, say that I should be able to see you somewhere out here, and he is going to stop. And that is that hold up position. So pretty much that was my my dad's like big elk story. He's from Michigan, but he went out to Colorado to do an elk hunt with my older half brother, and they had a bull working, and he said, I never thought about the fact that I had to shoot the bull. And he climbed into a tree, not into a tree, but like nestled into a tree, and the bull came ten yards away, and he realized that does the thing he forgot because he has to be able to shoot his bow. You jump in a pile of brush, you realize you got arrow sticking out front. You gotta stabilize he sometimes and if that thing doesn't come where you want, you gotta try to swing in there. And you got your elbow, your pat getting hooked on brush. It's just so yeah, I set up, I set up out in the open. Let let the you know, the terrain break me up behind. But really just get close to that terrain break or vegetation break. I got burned. It's funny, sick. Nothing like muled your hunting. In Nevada two years ago, I got where I had these bucks coming up, and I had snuck in on him and I had and I was up against the bush and I committed where I had my bow on one side right, didn't get a shot, and they passed through, but then they're super close and there was no way without doing major movement to be able to get my bow to the other side of and trying to do it spooked Bucks and I just had and I was like, I'm in on this angle and I'm add percent out on every other angle, yep, or just stupid stuff. As a right handed guy, I can't turn to my right at all, right, we can't. And there's been multiple times where like you expectable to go to the left and he goes to your right, and you're like, oh, like, I'm gonna have a lot of movement here because I gotta actually now move my feet around he's at twenty five yards because I can swing way back to my left and still shoot with decent form. But to my right, I'm like, you know, you're you're stuck. And uh so all that on set up, like I stuff I used to not think about until it costs me a lot of times. You keep adding to set up thing forever. But my little tidbit on that is that we used to see a lot of guys like they want to crouch and get low and like you're saying, people get like inside of like the branches of a fir tree. I'm like, dude, how are you ever gonna get your bow drawn back? But I think a big thing is always stay on your feet. Don't kneel, don't crouch down, like just trust that your cam was gonna work. Stand on your feet, because that just gives you so much more. Like you can take a step, and that might be that gets you the six inches for the window you need, right, And if you're on your knees, you're not doing that. Just do you always stand on your feet? I knew I was just scaring. Somebody asked me the other day, um on in a seminar, like, how many I've killed one bull off of my knees? Um? Out of however many of you know, thirty plus bulls I've killed, you know, archery, I've I've been on my knees like one time, um and that would end up being like a six yard shot. And the only reason I killed him off of my knees. I wasn't supposed to be the shooter. I kind of carved my buddy. I was calling the bull in for him. He got to like four yards of my buddy, but had him pinned, And you could tell by his actually as he was gonna get nervous and leave, and I'm like, well, I'm only eight yards away, and I've got a bow and I've got a tag. So I actually knocked my row with him eight yards away and as the cameraman shot him. But that's the only one I've ever killed off my knees now because it was an accident. So you're like making a little sacrifice on hiding in order to get an advantage and mobility and good shot for him. But I and this is the goofiest rule ever, I don't ever look at Elk in the eye. As long as you don't look at Elk and the three tips. No, this is this is, this is bonus. Don't look him in the eyes. Like, I've never had an Elk pick me out as long as I haven't looked at it seems like you make an eye connection and something weird happens and they know. But if I keep my brain and my hat down, I've never been picked off by an Elk. I mean, I know they're smart, they can see good. But in that set up, like as long as I don't move and and like make I kind of I can't act with him. We're good. Um. Number two is if you're struggling, Um, don't don't commit to the spot number. You know, google Earth on x map and don't be afraid. It's kind of a combo. Get out and use the night time to night locate. Everybody wants to be in bed, eat dinner the magical hour. If you cannot get something going, go out and bugle from ten o'clock to midnight somewhere in your unit, and I guarantee you you have a play or two or three or four for the next morning. Um, everybody's I'm like, hey, I'd much rather take a nap under the tree from tender noon if nothing's going on, and save my energy, eat dinner and then either go drive around, go hiker ridge out, go hiker trail, and just rip bugles from ten to twelve. And I garn the midnight ten at night, so night. So I'm gonna take my nap in the midday instead of hunt to make sure I'm not tired. But I'm gonna go bugle from ten at night to maybe So you'd rather sleep ten am to noon in order to make up for the fact ten pm midnight, make sure when you get one to respond, do not resist the urge to keep bagling and getting him the sound off. Just it's nice. You cannot do anything about it. You know he's there. He's nobody else is crazy enough to be you out being at night. You've got him located. Typically he will be within four yards max. Of that area. He's usually out to feed. Then, um, he'll be there in the morning. I'm gonna gives you a for sure play makes because we really got so many days and mornings. You want to make sure you have a play every morning and almost every night, so that guarantees I'm at least on an elk that that next morning. Ump. That was my That was one of my tips, Like, it's not necessarily a you know, I do this, but it's something that everybody should be doing. Unless you're just covered up in bowls all day long, then there's no need to do it. Uh. Number three, it all comes down to wind. Um, we're back to set up and this is really where I said up an approach. Yeah, I think everybody fails in that set up. But the wind. We always get the wind right, and if you have the wind perfect on your nose, that bowl is typically going to come in straight on if you can use the wind as a steering wheel to help yourself out. So if I have the wind that hits, say my cheek a thirty or forty five agree angle, I still got plenty of of conservancy built into my setup. But I'm now just guaranteed that if I'm facing the bull, the winds hitting me on the right cheek, that that bowl is now gonna come to my left. And we'll sometimes because he wants to circle down wind, he wants to get wind on you, and so by doing a lot of times, we'll even make a call and then move a little bit. So we'll make a call and then move into the wind, so we know that he's gonna basically j hook or you know, half moon right into us. Um, so that's something in the setup. Or if you have a caller, say that same winds hit my right cheek, if that collar backs up maybe just fifteen yards to my to my uh you know, four o'clock, my three thirty from where I'm located, he's gonna drag that bull right into me. Now, Albeit we can't control whether that bull wants to make a hundred fifty yards circle, a hundred yards circle or fifty yard circle. You know, Um, it's it still may not be enough, but I can at least guarantee that bull well guarantee most of the time, Um, that that bulll is gonna come broadside through my shooters location. You know, Um, just for setup, and that's gonna help all hime, because I honestly think a lot of hunters out there, they've got the locating down there in good areas. They can do everything right. They can even call decent enough to call these things in. They just fell at the setup and and you hear these story after story like I just everything nuts. I just couldn't get a shot all year, and yeah, either hang ups or just stuff's not working. And so I really think it comes down to that setup and then using the wind to get him to a spot where where you can get a shot. Any last thoughts, No, I'm we're gonna talk. You could do a good ELK take this year, and I get a quick one. I got a quick question, just like how do I get that higher pitch you're talking about? It's gonna help me get more locateds what I needed to do. So as a caller, there's there's two factors that that play into. There's there's air that you can put across the reed, and there's pressure you can apply with your tongue. Um, So it's kind of and and a lot of us call. With the balance of that, you're you're applying a little bit of both. So you're gonna want either more pressure. But if that locks the call out, you need to you maybe as maybe it locks out like breaks you lose that note. Ye, So then you're like, all right, I can't any more pressure. I need to just put more air across. If that doesn't work, I would highly recommend moving the call in your mouth a little bit, either forward or back, and finding a spot that maybe allows, uh, you know, some pressure to hit it a little bit different. Can I give you one see if you can tell me what which one I need to do? So this is Yanni ripping a brand new Phelps out of the package, Signature series out of the package brand new Phelps too. I like these bugle and tubes that are like a small or more packable tube because a lot of times you look at the damn tube, right you can you can carry this thing in your cargo pocket. That's where mine might be. It fits in. I designed it to be the same size. It will fit in a normal this a small water bottle, and then and then and then it'll you don't even need anything else attached. It'll literally just stuff in the water with this new little one called the unrivaled tube. V m h m hm. Let me tell you, good Yana story. We're hunting out you got. I don't know if it was a read. The one you biggled on before they started hit a lower pitch, but that one seemed to definitely go high enough. Well, yeah, that's it's a year old read. That was That was good? Really, you might you probably made me just sound bad. Let me tell story. We're on out in Kentucky and one day we're just out and it's kind of got like middle of day old rooms, you know, and we sat like eight lunch not being because we were in like kind of like checking out this other area. We weren't even like serious about what he was having to wander in this area to see what's going on, saying eight lunch, shooting the ship okay, and then he just decided the rip of people more just like whatever, and also walks into us. He'd been lander listening to our conversation. It just comes right in and then here's the Kentucky out and here's a bugle, and all of a sudden stands up. And also somebody hears the noise and it'll just walks up to us. That's awesome. We've we've we've had a lot of lunch. A matter of fact, that two does a lot of lunch bowls. A lot of lunch bowls are nat bowls where we're just napping in like one of us like, do you hear that? How's a raven? No, it wasn't get up, Maybe let a little calcol and then he hammers back. You're like, oh shoot, you know everybody's running to get get set up. But we've called multiple bowls lunch. You're just because you're a little more you're just listening to hanging out and you get a bold answer and you'll call him in. Right there, we're eating lunch. It's just it's crazy. Um, you know when and how but that that midday. If you can get a bowl to answer ten to two, your chances are good. It's just like hunting turkeys. Good sounds like you're hunting turkey. A quick question on this uh this tube? Why is it not just a straight pipe on the end. Why does it roll in? Is that for like reverberation for back pressure. So you can take a one and half inch diameter PBC pipe and blow through it, but there's no resistance. Nobody. You can go down to a one inch and there's no resistance, or three quarters and you or you can take like my my big tube or that that new and rival tube that's a four inch diameter tube and you have to blow a quarter of the air through this as you do a one inch piece PBC pipe. It all has to do with the back pressure. And what that does is when you get up and grab that high note that we were just talking about, it just kind of sits there for you. It's easy to hold that note instead of wavering versus if I had, you know, a straight piece of corrugated pipe. It's very very difficult, even for a guy like myself that can control that high note to sit there and hold it and put enough air across that. So that's why we kind of, you know, one of the things we've did on both these tubes as we kind of overcut the end to provide their right amount of back pressure on the little tube. It was a little more difficult because you don't want to give up too much volume. The smaller you make that whole, the less volume you get out of it. So it's kind of a balance of let's make sure there's enough back pressure that we can run the call versus still get enough volume that it's effective enough to pack around in the in the woods. And you're just selling calls like a mofa right now, like people are ordering right now. It is absolute, it is thinking about it. It's it's awesome. I can't can't say anything else. Uh, my wife and mom, I think you're ready for uh for the middle October since they're managing most of it. But it's it's been an incredible year for us. When when does when do people start getting fired up about buying calls and when do they kind of forget about it? July? I always at the fourth of July is kind of the big the big bump, and we can see it in our numbers for the last four years. Light off all their fireworks. They're ready. You see a little bit of a bump um you know when the draw start. But draws are kind of all across the board, so you also people start pulling tags. Yeah, they get serious all of a sudden. Um, July and August have always been our best month. So August has been the best month the last two years. So it's right now is really at the height of UM. And then you've got the difference in we sell the vendors versus selling off of our website. The vendors have already kind of preloaded a lot of their stuff they needed in the story. This thing about the difference, and so the vendors may start to tail off a little bit where our website they're kind of crossing. UM. So it's been good. I'm I'm ready for September and I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, to take off. Jason Phelps Phelps game calls as usual. Thank you for coming on, man, thanks for having It's always very informative.